Balance Changes Discussion

[Chdata]

So, shunka was nerfed, and other PAs were buffed.

Does this mean the death of 4 or 5 run TDs?

DISCUSS.

On a side note, level 3 technic crafts are out.

One notable one to point out:

Multi-Razan is now guaranteed for -0.10 hit interval (maximum, +2 hits total), and only penalizes dmg instead of PP

[Dephinix]

Shunka doesn't feel like it was nerfed very much. I ran back in as a Br/Hu, with no braver stances (forgot to change after seeing Shunka still has 2700+ power) and I'm not hitting much less than I remember. Less than the 20% I should be losing from not having average, but yeah. On a side note...
Wow, Asagiri is useful again, besides dashing, awesome!
Gekka is not the best dps PA out. I'm going all in on this one. Set it to your 2nd PA on katana, shorthop, attack, use Gekka, rinse and repeat. For 20 cost and being able to get off so many in a short time frame, I am definitely using this from now on. Also have Hatou Rindo in 3rd, which when you land you can instantly just attack into that, so cool. Also, I say short hop it since if you do it from from ground, you have to do a full jumping animation, which kinda sucks.

[ChinaSue]

Another thing to note is that all of the fire tech +power crafts got -status demerits at lv3.

[Gamemako]

They changed the way Asagiri and Shunka power are displayed, so it's hard to calculate exactly how much it was nerfed, but I think Shunka got kicked by about 30% and Asagiri got a buff of about 25% (estimating from previous numbers considering each to be previous power listing to be per-hit modifier). Neither of these are enough, so I suspect Asagiri will continue to be unused and Shunka will still be the go-to damage ability (since it was so vastly ahead of everything else in the first place).

[Sizustar]

Lv.3 crafting is going to take awhile to reach it..

[milranduil]

Let's just say I feel dumb for reaffixing my Bio katana. Shunka is now ~40% weaker (actual damage %, not % modifier). Time to main RA again ．＿．b

[gaijin_punch]

They changed the way Asagiri and Shunka power are displayed, so it's hard to calculate exactly how much it was nerfed, but I think Shunka got kicked by about 30% and Asagiri got a buff of about 25% (estimating from previous numbers considering each to be previous power listing to be per-hit modifier). Neither of these are enough, so I suspect Asagiri will continue to be unused and Shunka will still be the go-to damage ability (since it was so vastly ahead of everything else in the first place).

Plenty of people using Asagiri in the new gentei quest. But, probably just trying it out.

[NexusAZ]

Plenty of people using Asagiri in the new gentei quest. But, probably just trying it out.

I don't know, I'm actually doing pretty decent damage. RESPECTABLE DAMAGE FROM ASAGIRI.

On a Fang Banshee Weakpoint, I do about 6k per slash and 12k on the final one. This is with a +60 S-ATK falz katana that's 30 element.

[Dephinix]

Yes, please, all the "awesome bravers", switch class and let us originals still reign supreme.

[Chdata]

dunno but I jumped from 500 asagiri to constant 2700 or something lol

it really mows down mobs caught in it fast

[Sizustar]

It takes at least 500 Tech disk to get the 2nd level of Lv.3 dark...

[Gamemako]

Let's just say I feel dumb for reaffixing my Bio katana. Shunka is now ~40% weaker (actual damage %, not % modifier). Time to main RA again ．＿．b

Power modifiers are applied after defense, so changes to modifiers should be directly proportional to total damage. Previous Shunka was 797 applied over 5 hits, or 3985 total (estimated -- clearly, Shunka's last hits did more than the first). New total modifier is 2846, a reduction of 28.6% -- it is the previous estimate multiplied by 5/7.

[Xaelouse]

seeing 2800 something power on a 30 pp move that's not very slow sure is something, huh sega

[Sp-24]

Considering that Shunka got nerfed, this is just a yet another reason why PA numbers mean nothing. It used to be, what, a ~780 move before?

[Dephinix]

Yeah, with my ranger gear still on, but with my s atk mag of 125, I'm hitting 2530s. Not bad at all, only have 1769 s atk right now. Gekka's last hit is hitting 7800, first is 2kish I think.

[fay]

I've been away for a few weeks on the game. Can someone tell me or link me to what got buffed/debuffed. All I gathered from this thread so far is shunka nerf lol

[NexusAZ]

I've been away for a few weeks on the game. Can someone tell me or link me to what got buffed/debuffed. All I gathered from this thread so far is shunka nerf lol

http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-extended-maintenance-and-patch-6112014/

[Gamemako]

Considering that Shunka got nerfed, this is just a yet another reason why PA numbers mean nothing. It used to be, what, a ~780 move before?

797, hit 5 times, estimated total 3985. As I said, the new number is exactly 5/7 of that. Lots of weirdness going on, though, as usual.


Yeah, with my ranger gear still on, but with my s atk mag of 125, I'm hitting 2530s. Not bad at all, only have 1769 s atk right now. Gekka's last hit is hitting 7800, first is 2kish I think.

Gekka's damage was not supposed to be significantly changed. It was 372*2 = 744, is now 750 even. Buff to Gekka was reducing PP from 26 to 20. Definitely weird.

//EDIT: Actually, re-reading, I have no idea...

[Chdata]

My gekka hits 2-3k then 9k

[fay]

http://bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-extended-maintenance-and-patch-6112014/

Had a look on there but doesn't actually say the changes. I noticed the part about the schedules EQs, campaigns etc, but that was all really.

[Rakurai]

The last two hits on Shunka have a higher damage modifier then the first three, so the effective multiplier was actually around 4700%, according to the JP wiki.

[NexusAZ]

Had a look on there but doesn't actually say the changes. I noticed the part about the schedules EQs, campaigns etc, but that was all really.

Click on the "PSO2 Patch Notes" tab

[Z-0]

Does this mean the death of 4 or 5 run TDs?
No, because the main reason Braver is good is because of Combat Finish, along with Hatou Rindou to do damage and build up hits.

5 run TDs definitely still within scope. Shunka was just a clean up PA at this point anyway, incase you messed up.

And yeah, Gekka and Asagiri still got nothing on the Shunka and Hatou pair. They're better, sure, but if your goal is to be efficient you shouldn't be using them.

[fay]

Don't know how I didn't see that tab lol. Thanks.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Holy crap this sounds awesome, can't wait to do at least 3k per slash with max equip braver asigiri.
If I did around 1k on the first slash on gekka and 6k on my upward slash, how much increase in power will I see? Anything significant?

Edit: and this is on normal non weak spots.

[Chdata]

With fire tree, which il foie craft is better?

[Maenara]

Ship 2 at 200% Apos kill, never thought I'd see the day. Did they actually put in the change to the annihilation percent?

[Z-0]

They did, it's really easy to get 200% now.

[Maenara]

So easy, even a Ship 2 could do it. 15 minutes could gain you 150% or more.

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

I guess all of us Bravers went from being like Dante if he ever used a Katana, to now Vergil. Rapid Slash Ho!

[Rien]

I guess all of us Bravers went from being like Dante if he ever used a Katana, to now Vergil. Rapid Slash Ho!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txzZYhLd5Ys

[Gamemako]

The last two hits on Shunka have a higher damage modifier then the first three, so the effective multiplier was actually around 4700%, according to the JP wiki.

Makes sense, though I'm not sure what to make of the new way of displaying things. Assuming 4700% would be a 40% damage loss. Tested everything out myself on Apostle Dorian and Luther. Shunka does seem to be around a 30% decrease -- I should have collected data before the patch, though. Either way, it's significant. Asagiri is definitely more than a 25% buff. More like 200%. It got a HUGE buff. Gekka I couldn't really notice, but I always hated Gekka anyway.

Shunka still has higher DPS than Asagiri, chases better, and is more PP efficient. Asagiri is quicker, doesn't put you on the ground, and is easier to interrupt. They have their ups and downs now. My boss PA set will be Asagiri -> Tsukimi -> Shunka.


Ship 2 at 200% Apos kill, never thought I'd see the day. Did they actually put in the change to the annihilation percent?

Ship 10 hit 200% with about 4 minutes to go. Clearly made a change there.

[Kondibon]

I would have prefered a pp cost increase and only like a 20% damage reduction to shunka, but I guess this is fine too. Still looks useful without outshining everything else. Especially now that the other PAs got buffed.

[Gardios]

Apos Dorios % change is really silly. I understand tweaking the number if too many N runs put a strain on the server, but they went overboard.

Technique Customize cost is insane, wtf.

[Raid_Hirsh]

Seriously, I lost all faith in SEGA's ability to balance this game... Did SEGA honestly believe that a 40% damage reduction would be enough for people to stop spamming it (especially with the measly buff that was given to Asagiri and Gekka)?! If so, then they are sadly mistaken~

What SEGA should have done is: increase the PP cost, and remove the Hyper Guard. In addition, they should have removed the mobile aspect of Shunka and altered it to be completely stationary. That way, inexperienced players wouldn't have to rely on Shunka to play the game for them (by holding the up key).

With that all being said, it's such a shame that SEGA missed a big opportunity to make things right -- instead, they took the lazy approach (like they do anyways). I can guarantee that the full ledge revamp (that's slated for the end of this year) is going to be a major disappointment as well.


P.S. Ilmegid isn't off the hook either. That's another dumb Techinic that needs to be heavily nerfed (or completely removed). Judging SEGA's knowledge to balance skills, I simply won't hold my breath for it.

[Kondibon]

Seriously, I lost all faith in SEGA's ability to balance this game... Did SEGA honestly believe that a 40% damage reduction would be enough for people to stop spamming it (especially with the measly buff that was given to Asagiri and Gekka)?! If so, then they are sadly mistaken~

What SEGA should have done is: increase the PP cost, and remove the Hyper Guard. In addition, they should have removed the mobile aspect of Shunka and altered it to be completely stationary. That way, inexperienced players wouldn't have to rely on Shunka to play the game for them (by holding the up key).

With that all being said, it's such a shame that SEGA missed a big opportunity to make things right -- instead, they took the lazy approach (like they do anyways). I can guarantee that the full ledge revamp (that's slated for the end of this year) is going to be a major disappointment as well.


P.S. Ilmegid isn't off the hook either. That's another dumb Techinic that needs to be heavily nerfed (or completely removed). Judging SEGA's knowledge to balance skills, I simply won't hold my breath for it.The problem has never been that people spammed shunka, it was that people spammed shunka in situations where other PAs had a tactical advantage because the damage was so absurd that it didn't matter if it was slightly less effecient. I would have prefered a pp cost increase as well, but if you don't think this is going to have a noticable impact on which PAs players use then you probably haven't seen many good bravers.

Are people gonna stop using it a lot? No, that was never the point, and that was never why it should have been nerfed. There's nothing wrong with having a staple PA. What was bad about it was that the difference between using shunka and say Hatou was so small that Shunka's ease of use made up for the difference. Now that there's a wider gap though, people will be more likely to use an appropriate PA when shunka isn't good for something.

Il megid is a whole other discussion.

[Xaelouse]

I wonder if Maidoll can finally get that last hit of Overend out now on them goldrahda

[kabutozero]

Seriously, I lost all faith in SEGA's ability to balance this game... Did SEGA honestly believe that a 40% damage reduction would be enough for people to stop spamming it (especially with the measly buff that was given to Asagiri and Gekka)?! If so, then they are sadly mistaken~

What SEGA should have done is: increase the PP cost, and remove the Hyper Guard. In addition, they should have removed the mobile aspect of Shunka and altered it to be completely stationary. That way, inexperienced players wouldn't have to rely on Shunka to play the game for them (by holding the up key).

With that all being said, it's such a shame that SEGA missed a big opportunity to make things right -- instead, they took the lazy approach (like they do anyways). I can guarantee that the full ledge revamp (that's slated for the end of this year) is going to be a major disappointment as well.


P.S. Ilmegid isn't off the hook either. That's another dumb Techinic that needs to be heavily nerfed (or completely removed). Judging SEGA's knowledge to balance skills, I simply won't hold my breath for it.
HR has taken SS throne for most bosses. SS will still be used on general situations where not many mobs are piled up , where kanran/kazan are better

[Aurorra]

Seriously, I lost all faith in SEGA's ability to balance this game... Did SEGA honestly believe that a 40% damage reduction would be enough for people to stop spamming it (especially with the measly buff that was given to Asagiri and Gekka)?! If so, then they are sadly mistaken~

What SEGA should have done is: increase the PP cost, and remove the Hyper Guard. In addition, they should have removed the mobile aspect of Shunka and altered it to be completely stationary. That way, inexperienced players wouldn't have to rely on Shunka to play the game for them (by holding the up key).

With that all being said, it's such a shame that SEGA missed a big opportunity to make things right -- instead, they took the lazy approach (like they do anyways). I can guarantee that the full ledge revamp (that's slated for the end of this year) is going to be a major disappointment as well.


P.S. Ilmegid isn't off the hook either. That's another dumb Techinic that needs to be heavily nerfed (or completely removed). Judging SEGA's knowledge to balance skills, I simply won't hold my breath for it.

So pretty much, QQ Sega didn't make Shunka completely unusable? Were you expecting them to make Shunka-shuran cause things to be deleted from your hard drive or something?

[gaijin_punch]

Seriously, I lost all faith in SEGA's ability to balance this game...

You've clearly never played Virtua Fighter. Sega doesn't balance... they just shift strengths around.

[Raid_Hirsh]

Now that there's a wider gap though, people will be more likely to use an appropriate PA when shunka isn't good for something.

If anything, that's the way it should be!

I grew tired of seeing Bravers using Shunka when there's hoards of enemies around us (when Kanran is obviously more effective in this situation). Likewise, I grew tired of seeing Bravers using Shunka when we're fighting a tough boss (such as Doritos and Loser) that requires blocking/countering/dodging etc. -- and they die (when Hatou is obviously more effective in this equation).

Then again, I'm always stick with the short end of the stick when it comes to scrubby players anyways. It got to a point where I don't even waste Moons on random Bravers that spams Shunka to their graves...


Edit:


HR has taken SS throne for most bosses. SS will still be used on general situations where not many mobs are piled up , where kanran/kazan are better

Likewise to Kondibon's response, I'm relieved that Shunka simply isn't your only tool within your arsenal to save mankind from Darkers anymore.



So pretty much, QQ Sega didn't make Shunka completely unusable? Were you expecting them to make Shunka-shuran cause things to be deleted from your hard drive or something?

In a perfect world, yeah -- it would be nice if it was removed (along with Ilmegid); in actuality, it needed to be nerfed to a point where people need to acknowledge that Karan and Hatou are better PAs' in their own respective situations.



You've clearly never played Virtua Fighter. Sega doesn't balance... they just shift strengths around.

I never played Virtua Fighters before, but I did recall hearing that it was the most balanced fighting game series (compared to others).

[Rien]

I wonder if Maidoll can finally get that last hit of Overend out now on them goldrahda

Replaced by ilmegid

[Kondibon]

If anything, that's the way it should be!

I grew tired of seeing Bravers using Shunka when there's hoards of enemies around us (when Kanran is obviously more effective in this situation). Likewise, I grew tired of seeing Bravers using Shunka when we're fighting a tough boss (such as Doritos and Loser) that requires blocking/countering/dodging etc. -- and they die (when Hatou is obviously more effective in this equation).

Then again, I'm always stick with the short end of the stick when it comes to scrubby players anyways. It got to a point where I don't even waste Moons on random Bravers that spams Shunka to their graves...
I'm sure those people will never go away completely. That's what I meant though. I've seen good bravers and they don't waste time shunkaing 3 dagans.

I do think Katanas need an easier way to create distance between themselves and their target though. It kinda feels like a waste of time to run backwards mid katana combat to set up Hatou... which is probably why people just used shunka.

[Rien]

The problem is Hatou's distance requirement. Yeah, it seems every katana elitist orgasms over that one photon art and I can't understand why because of the distance you need to set up.

[Z-0]

Because it's not difficult to find that distance. Once you've got it, Hatou is the easiest PA to use. It's not super-frame-specific as you keep spreading, Rien.

[Kondibon]

The problem is Hatou's distance requirement. Yeah, it seems every katana elitist orgasms over that one photon art and I can't understand why because of the distance you need to set up.I think it's fine and combined with the PP cost keeps it from being OP. I'm not "hardcore" or anything, anyone who's seen me post here should know that, and I find it plenty easy to use.

My point was simply that the time it takes for you to get to that distance if you weren't already is time you could be whacking things with shunka, so I feel Katanas need a way to jump back quickly.

[Sp-24]

This is a problem with most of the melee weapons, not just katana. If anything, katana actually has it easier, in that it does have a tool that lets you cover distance easily without wasting your time and PP for nothing (unlike daggers). ...In the form of Shunka.

[Bellion]

wow katana elitists :(

[Rien]

Because it's not difficult to find that distance. Once you've got it, Hatou is the easiest PA to use. It's not super-frame-specific as you keep spreading, Rien.

You mean the high damage distance, or the 6 hit higher damage distance?

[Kondibon]

This is a problem with most of the melee weapons, not just katana. If anything, katana actually has it easier, in that it does have a tool that lets you cover distance easily without wasting your time and PP for nothing (unlike daggers). ...In the form of Shunka.I find covering long distances with daggers fine... it's short distances they have problems with.

Besides, I'm talking about moving farther away, not closer. There aren't many other melee weapons that need to get farther away except maybe WL (which now that I think of it, also needs a "backoff" PA).

EDIT: Also, guilty break. Why does no one care about guilty break?

[Gamemako]

I do think Katanas need an easier way to create distance between themselves and their target though. It kinda feels like a waste of time to run backwards mid katana combat to set up Hatou... which is probably why people just used shunka.

Actually, they don't, because Hatou is not supposed to be your end-all-be-all ST DPS button, and if you're going to use it for that, you need appropriate drawbacks. An overpowered Hatou is no better than an overpowered Shunka. Actually, it's worse, because Shunka at least has risk.

[gaijin_punch]

I never played Virtua Fighters before, but I did recall hearing that it was the most balanced fighting game series (compared to others).

In terms of "weaker" characters being able to crush stronger ones, yes. (The game is amazingly technical). However, they did multiple iterations of each arcade game (even in the days of PCBs, not "updates") and every time they'd gimp a few characters and jack up a few others... without fail. Fucking annoying.

[Kondibon]

Actually, they don't, because Hatou is not supposed to be your end-all-be-all ST DPS button, and if you're going to use it for that, you need appropriate drawbacks. An overpowered Hatou is no better than an overpowered Shunka. Actually, it's worse, because Shunka at least has risk.That's true I guess. The problem is probably more in the clunky combo system anyway. :/

[Xaeris]

Oh my god, this Technique Crafting. This is going to be a summer long campaign if I don't want to dump my entire wallet on it at once. Better get started...

[Lorne]

So what's the Sacrifice Bite buff like? Are there any really good new tech recipes?

[Stickboy]

So what's the Sacrifice Bite buff like? Are there any really good new tech recipes?

lv3 recipes

[Skize]

From what I've gathered it seems to be more close to a 50% reduction in damage. Still, I think the buffs of the other skills makes up for it. But that's just me.

-------------------------------------------------
On another note, I honestly don't see the problem with IlMegid. FO's are supposed to be the big damage dealers and in return, almost everything can hit them like a truck. That's how it is in almost every mmo anyway. Also, it takes a ton, and I mean a ton of meseta and time to get it to be as strong as it is. Not only do you have to farm lv. 11+ Tech disks, you have to pay 10k+ per try along with 5+ fragments. That's a ton of farming to do. If you don't farm, at the current market price in Ship 2, 100 fragments is a little more than 1mil meseta. Not only that, you have to be super lucky or spam more to get a Great Success. Otherwise you'll get close to great success or mediocre results.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also why the doubt on Ship 2 about the % on DFL? If I remember correctly, Ship 2 made it to around 165% or more when DFL first came out. They had to change it cause no ship has ever reach 200%. Sure they might have made it too easy, but who knows, they might change it to be a bit harder later.

[Kondibon]

I think the problem with Ilmegid is just how insanely it scales, but I think this is a problem with force (or the whole game) in general. It just never gets noticed because most things aren't good until they're scaled up anyway.

I've used Ilmegid with mediocre gear and skill trees and it's good enough to use, but not PP efficient unless you're in the middle of using something for PP regen. On the other hand, if you get the right gear and skill tree it goes from being an ok AoE dark tech, to lolhandofdeath.

There's been a problem in the game that the potential damage you can do is INSANE compared to how much you do without those hard to farm rares and a perfect skill tree.

I think that if changing skill trees was easier/free this would be less of a general problem, but ilmegid still scales way too high.

[Rehal]

Also why the doubt on Ship 2 about the % on DFL? If I remember correctly, Ship 2 made it to around 165% or more when DFL first came out. They had to change it cause no ship has ever reach 200%. Sure they might have made it too easy, but who knows, they might change it to be a bit harder later.

Ship 2 didn't even reach 100% on the first Luther EQ.

[Ciel~Homura]

Well... this so called "balance" totally ruined braver. Of course that it is not about shunka shunran.

As a currently statue i am perfectly fine with this nerf. The only thing that is really stupid is Asagiri dmg power up. Why? Because people will start complain again about "Asagiri OP dmg + they dash too fast i can't follow need nerf again" LOL
If this is what Sega can come up with i'd prefer they don't do anything instead o.o

Gekka power is incredibly good for a 20pp cost. If you combo it with Tsumiki > Gekka the speed of Gekka become really fast. The only problem is Gekka attack range require a little bit of training and yeah... not very pp efficient to use both at the same time. Gekka alone is quite slow :/
It would be perfect if they can decrease Tsumiki pp cost too.

[Rien]

Just jump > normal attack > JA gekka

[Ciel~Homura]

Just jump > normal attack > JA gekka

I don't know about game mechanic but i "feel" like it faster with Tsumiki. :-? Just my feeling though.

[ShinMaruku]

You've clearly never played Virtua Fighter. Sega doesn't balance... they just shift strengths around.

That is referencing. And given it's track record they are good. Also Sega is a massive company the people who make PSO2 are remnants of Sonic team the most incompetent devs since 3d realms, VF's team is a completely different division.

[Macman]

It takes at least 500 Tech disk to get the 2nd level of Lv.3 dark...
At least you don't have to dump 2.5 million meseta to get one single achievement like you do with extensions.

[Kondibon]

I don't know about game mechanic but i "feel" like it faster with Tsumiki. :-? Just my feeling though.It also makes a good counter PA; Since countering with Katanas makes you jump slightly, you can immediately use it. It's not an easily spammable PA though.

[Ciel~Homura]

It also makes a good counter PA; Since countering with Katanas makes you jump slightly, you can immediately use it. It's not an easily spammable PA though.

Just tested it with Rockbear and yeah this is really good combo! Thanks alot :-D (i usually have Kikyo at 1st pa for spamming lol)

[Dephinix]

Gekka power is incredibly good for a 20pp cost. If you combo it with Tsumiki > Gekka the speed of Gekka become really fast. The only problem is Gekka attack range require a little bit of training and yeah... not very pp efficient to use both at the same time. Gekka alone is quite slow :/
It would be perfect if they can decrease Tsumiki pp cost too.

Very first page, put it as your second PA, short jop, attack, use Gekka. You do the full attack immediately and and quickly jump again or use your third PA. It is probably the best spamming PA braver has now.

[Chdata]

Ship 2 didn't even reach 100% on the first Luther EQ.

They did on the first, but not the second.

[Skize]

They did on the first, but not the second.

The very first few, they didn't do so well. But on the second day or so, I clearly remember us reaching way over 100%.

[Sizustar]

Someone on Ship 2 did a test and here is their number.
http://i.imgur.com/SJwolYy.jpg

Top - Shunka-shunran
Middle - Gekka-zakuro
Bottom - Asagiri-rendan

[stroodle]

As Bellion has posted in another thread, this is actual critical damage difference of shunka before and after the nerf.
(image is pretty huge)
[SPOILER-BOX]http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image/34353.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
1st slash 15394->8933 (58.0%)
2nd slash 19242->10994 (57.1%)
3rd slash 23091->13743 (59.5%)
last weak 24560->14842 (60.4%)
last strong 28338->16865 (59.5%)
Total damage 110625->65377 (59.1%)

Overall it's 59.1% as strong as it used to be or a 40.9% drop in power.

[Chdata]

So I think it's safe to assume it's 60%, and that damage variance explains the rest.

e.g., 40% less dmg

[CricketJam]

Does anyone know the conditions for fire(or any element really) customization 7? You need to have customization 6 (do 25 lv2 crafts) done before you can see 7's conditions.

I need this info because I'm calculating the total amount of tech frags required to get everything.

[Gamemako]

Well... this so called "balance" totally ruined braver. Of course that it is not about shunka shunran.

As a currently statue i am perfectly fine with this nerf. The only thing that is really stupid is Asagiri dmg power up. Why? Because people will start complain again about "Asagiri OP dmg + they dash too fast i can't follow need nerf again" LOL
If this is what Sega can come up with i'd prefer they don't do anything instead o.o

Gekka power is incredibly good for a 20pp cost. If you combo it with Tsumiki > Gekka the speed of Gekka become really fast. The only problem is Gekka attack range require a little bit of training and yeah... not very pp efficient to use both at the same time. Gekka alone is quite slow :/
It would be perfect if they can decrease Tsumiki pp cost too.

Except Asagiri's awkward targeting and static placement mean it's not going to be preferred for most situations, not to mention that it still does half the damage of nerfed Shunka. That really just says how stupidly out-of-line old Shunka was and how gimpy old Asagiri was.

Gekka is pretty powerful for its PP cost, but it's also horribly slow except in a combo with counter or Tsu. Counters aren't super-common or reliable -- especially with standard OP setups that ignore defense entirely for non-boss encounters (and some bosses). If you use with Tsu, it's a ton of PP. Such drawbacks are necessary for balance, else people would just spam one ability/combo all day.

[Aurorra]

Except Asagiri's awkward targeting and static placement mean it's not going to be preferred for most situations, not to mention that it still does half the damage of nerfed Shunka. That really just says how stupidly out-of-line old Shunka was and how gimpy old Asagiri was.

Gekka is pretty powerful for its PP cost, but it's also horribly slow except in a combo with counter or Tsu. Counters aren't super-common or reliable -- especially with standard OP setups that ignore defense entirely for non-boss encounters (and some bosses). If you use with Tsu, it's a ton of PP. Such drawbacks are necessary for balance, else people would just spam one ability/combo all day.

The trick with Gekka is to do a short jump then normal attack before it, cutting out the slow jump animation drastically increases the rate at which you can attack.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The trick with Gekka is to do a short jump then normal attack before it, cutting out the slow jump animation drastically increases the rate at which you can attack.

... or we could use a different PA with a better pp:damage ratio that can keep the user suspended in air...

[MimiChan]

To get Custom 7, you need to craft 25 Level 2 recipe then to get Custom 8 you need to craft 50 Fukin level 3 recipe. Good luck.

700 fragments to release version 1 of recipe 3. If you want the version 2, you have to craft version 1 15 times.

750 to unlock all basic level 3 recipe, then another 600 to unlock the version 2

1,350 to unlock all recipe of one element x 6 = 8,100 x 10,500 meseta =

85 fuking million to release all recipe.

If 85m isn't a problem, that three hour cooldown per craft is. Basically, it's a FU from Sega.

[CricketJam]

Alright based on your information I came up with this. It's most likely wrong and full of my scribbling notes but see if I missed anything. I tried to organize it. Also #6 is something I'm unsure of.
Edit: mistake fixed!

[SPOILER-BOX]Checklist:
1) Unlock Efficient Safoie 1, Multi Shifta 1, Blazing Nafoie 1
2) Unlock Blazing Safoie 1, Concentrated Shifta 1, Concentrated Nafoie 1
3) Unlock Efficient Safoie 2, Multi Shifta 2, Blazing Nafoie 2
4) Unlock Efficient Foie 2, Blazing Gifoie 2, Wide Rafoie 2, Blazing Safoie 2, Concentrated Shifta 2, Concentrated Nafoie 2, Concentrated Ilfoie 2
5) Unlock lv3 Foie, Gifoie, Rafoie
6) Unlock lv3 Safoie, Shifta, Nafoie
7) Unlock Efficient Foie 3, Blazing Gifoie 3, Wide Rafoie 3, Blazing Safoie 3, Concentrated Shifta 3, Concentrated Nafoie 3, Concentrated Ilfoie 3

1) Do lv 1 Blazing Foie, Concentrated Gifoie, Blazing Rafoie, Efficient Ilfoie each 5 times plus 5 extra (each basic tech's and ilfoie's secondary is now unlocked due to 5 of each done)
2) Do lv 1 Efficient Safoie, Concentrated Shifta, Blazing Nafoie each 5 times to unlock lv 1 of their above alternative recipes
3) Do lv 2 Foie 10 times to unlock above listed (only foie is finished)
4) This leaves the other 6 lv2 tech customs (you already did foie!) to do 10 times each lv 2 to unlock lv 2 alternatives
5) Do lv 2 recipe 25 times to unlock basic tech lv 3 (if you did step 4 then this is free since this achievement overlaps)
6) Do lv 2 recipe 25 times again (But at this point you have lv3 recipes already. Is there lv3 recipe condition here too? This could save frags.)
7) Do lv 3 recipe 15 times to unlock respective recipes. There's 7 techs.

1) 5 x 25 = 125
2) 5 x 5 x 3 = 75
3) 8 x 10 = 80
4) 8 x 10 x 6 = 480
6) 8 x 25 = 200
7) 10 x 15 x 7 = 1050
Total = 2010
Total x 6 Elements = 12060 frags[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Walkure]

So I think it's safe to assume it's 60%, and that damage variance explains the rest.

e.g., 40% less dmg
Criticals don't have variance. That's why they were specifically recording critical hits.

[milranduil]

The likely difference is just rounding in the damage calculation.

[GoldenFalcon]

I have finally realized my problem with Sakura Endo

It doesn't feel like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScOWb2_jrDY&t=17s)
(only a few seconds need be viewed)

I hope they intend to make Sakura Endo more satisfying to use.

[DoubleZero]

EDIT: Also, guilty break. Why does no one care about guilty break?

Guilty Break needs either a reduction in charge time or increase in distance covered without charging. The whole purpose of closing the distance quickly is to beat IlMegid to the punch, and it's hard to do that when IlMegid charges faster, travels faster and does more damage.

You'd have to charge Guilty Break prior to combat in order to get anything worthwhile out of it, which is both counterproductive to the buff it gets from Sword Gear and to your party because of the slow walking one does when charging the attack.

[Chdata]

Sakura Endo would be amazing if it had a little bit more range, and had small hitstun on enemies.

[Dammy]

Considering that Shunka got nerfed, this is just a yet another reason why PA numbers mean nothing. It used to be, what, a ~780 move before?

pa numbers mean scaling , not initial damage

[Achelousaurus]

I don't mind the shunka nerf. Wasm so OP before now it's "just" very good, which means other pas are also worth using.
And I absolutely LOVE the Asagira damage boost.
It's like 300§.
Before Asagiri did maybe 300 damage per hit for me, now it's 900-1000.

[Chdata]

My asigiri does 2700ish per hit. And I'm missing a ton of S-atk.

What level are you l o l

[Maximilliano Lexa]

My asagiri do 3k each :3

[GoldenFalcon]

Mine do 2k... with a crafted katana... with wrong element...

bleh. Making uber weapons of each type is a long process. I really should make a katana.

[Stickboy]

gekka is uber amazing now with huge buff

[Gamemako]

The difference people are observing there is probably Fury Stance spec, which is doubling your damage.

[Kondibon]

Guilty Break needs either a reduction in charge time or increase in distance covered without charging. The whole purpose of closing the distance quickly is to beat IlMegid to the punch, and it's hard to do that when IlMegid charges faster, travels faster and does more damage.

You'd have to charge Guilty Break prior to combat in order to get anything worthwhile out of it, which is both counterproductive to the buff it gets from Sword Gear and to your party because of the slow walking one does when charging the attack.Isn't the distance it takes you uncharged longer, or at least, as long as shunka?

[Achelousaurus]

My asigiri does 2700ish per hit. And I'm missing a ton of S-atk.

What level are you l o l
51 BR / 29 Hu with crap gear.
I just made it past my first mil by finishing my first set of VH/SH Tacos.
Using a Red Katana+6.

[Zyrusticae]

Hmmm, nifty. Funny how even after the buff Asagiri only does a third of the damage per hit of Shunka. Oh, well, at least it's better than it used to be.

I want to see them try to balance the techs, though. That is my biggest want. Imagine if everything got buffed up to the level of ilmegid...

[Kondibon]

I want to see them try to balance the techs, though. That is my biggest want. Imagine if everything got buffed up to the level of ilmegid...I agree that a lot of techs need to be buffed but I don't think ilmegid should be the baseline...

[Chdata]

I wouldn't mind techs being il-megid tier damage wise.

That wouldn't be too bad really.

Right now you really need maxed out gear for fire spells to even come close to one hitting trash mobs, whereas il megid hits way above what it needs to (20k), which is kinda lame for any other elemental weakness.

Not to mention, il megid is still effective outside of elemental weakness.

[ShinMaruku]

I agree that a lot of techs need to be buffed but I don't think ilmegid should be the baseline...

It should be stronger.
http://abload.de/img/nyotengu01buzbg.gif

[Kondibon]

I wouldn't mind techs being il-megid tier damage wise.

That wouldn't be too bad really.

Right now you really need maxed out gear for fire spells to even come close to one hitting trash mobs, whereas il megid hits way above what it needs to (20k), which is kinda lame for any other elemental weakness.

Not to mention, il megid is still effective outside of elemental weakness.It's the same with Ilmegid. People just always leave that part out. Ilmegid is actually REALLY ineficient. It's like shunka in that it's not the best thing for every situation but it's possible to use it for anything and not fall behind much. The problem isn't that it's strong, it's that it scales too high due to it's mechanics (flying around hitting everything).

That is to say you can't just make all the techs do comparable damage to Ilmegid and expect them to be all equal because they lack the mechanical advantages it has. Infact, a lot of techs are meant to have advantages like that, but they get ignored in favor of whichever one kills the most enemies in the least ammount of time. I actually think the "one shot trash mobs" meta is part of the reason for this. Who needs staggers or status effects when enemies die in like 2 seconds anyway? The only CC tech that's widely used is zondeel, because it makes it easier for everyone to hit all the mobs at once with their oneshots. Even if they all could oneshot enemies easily nothing would change (though I guess AoE techs would be favored more)

All that said, I do still think a lot of techs need buffs though, and I'm not trying to deny that. But the reason I don't think Ilmegid should be the baseline is because it highlights exactly what's wrong with the way the combat plays out in the game.


It should be stronger.
http://abload.de/img/nyotengu01buzbg.gif

I know you're joking, but I actually agree... :I It needs to be a bit stronger on it's own and not scale so much.

EDIT: Actually I think ALL the techs need to have their base effectiveness buffed, and the force/techer trees need to focus more on general bonuses instead of bonuses for specific techs, at least in terms of damage.

[DoubleZero]

Isn't the distance it takes you uncharged longer, or at least, as long as shunka?

Haven't tested them side by side, but if Guilty Break travels as far as Shunka, it doesn't do it as fast or for as much overall damage. If Guilty Break is going to reach the target after Shunka, it should do more damage to compensate. Maybe Guilty Break should apply the first hit's damage to stuff it passes by en-route to target. It's a big ol' Juggernaut charge after all!

Of course, that's just Sword vs. Katana. Every other Melee weapon would benefit from a distance-closing PA like Shunka, just to at least make it seem like the melee classes are able to get to and attack the enemies before the casting classes obliterate them.

[Kondibon]

Haven't tested them side by side, but if Guilty Break travels as far as Shunka, it doesn't do it as fast or for as much overall damage. If Guilty Break is going to reach the target after Shunka, it should do more damage to compensate. Maybe Guilty Break should apply the first hit's damage to stuff it passes by en-route to target. It's a big ol' Juggernaut charge after all!

Of course, that's just Sword vs. Katana. Every other Melee weapon would benefit from a distance-closing PA like Shunka, just to at least make it seem like the melee classes are able to get to and attack the enemies before the casting classes obliterate them.You need to take into account how long shunka's last few hits are in comparison to guilty break. A hunter could get a whole other PA in before shunka finishes. Though by that point yeah, braver has the advantages.

Also I tested the distance, the first hit of shunka is slightly farther than uncharged guilty break, and all of the hits take you slightly farther than charged guilty break.

While I don't think every melee weapon needs an approach PA (wired lances are already REALLY good at mid ranged AoEing), I do think melee classes in general need better mobility. Giga has advocated a sprint, and I think it would be cool to have a special leaping/charging version of step attack by using the PA button instead of the normal attack button. It could be like Sroll Arts and use a small amount of PP or something, but take you really far in a short amount of time.

Still though, is no one else realizing how many of these problems could be alleviated if it just wasn't so easy to oneshot huge spawns of enemies?

[Zyrusticae]

Changing the entire pace of the game is something they just aren't going to do, though. Especially if it results in a massive player backlash from those who are used to the current status quo.

Their best bet for changing that stuff is by making Ultimate mode completely different gameplay-wise, which is what they seem to be keen on doing (at least judging from the fact that Ultimate Mode enemies are entirely separate from their normal -> SH counterparts).

[Neith]

Shunka is much better now it isn't completely overpowered (now it's just very good). I do find it funny though that they nerfed Shunka and made Asagiri so strong. Almost every BR from what I've seen seems to be spamming Asagiri now :lol:

Sure BR got nerfed with Shunka's damage being effectively halved but it's still an extremely strong class.

Now bring on the S-Roll nerfs

[btw-Niji]

Now bring on the S-Roll nerfs
There is no reason to nerf GU's S-Roll now. The class is already very weak compared to others.

Outside of AQ, GU is garbage.

[Hexxy]

Asagiri is very good now. Messed around with it in the LQ and was doing 4k+(8k+ weak point)/hit, couldn't see the finisher with all the ilmegid/cosmos/other bravers spamming but I was in front and everything melted. I'm sure it was totalling over 30k at least. I do like the fact that the dash part of asagiri has iframes and it's much more cancel-friendly than shunka.

My shunka was doing about 60k without gear and black heart so it's still going strong.

My gekka was doing something like 4k/9k? Drink buff only. I'm not a huge fan of gekka so I didn't really look. The 20pp cost makes it usables (Gekka > Tsukimi > Gekka is like 35k)

[Kondibon]

There is no reason to nerf GU's S-Roll now. The class is already very weak compared to others.

Outside of AQ, GU is garbage.S-Roll needs to be nerfed for the sake of spreading the damage through the PAs. It'd dumb that Gunner's lose out on half their damage by not flipping when they're one of the few classes that benifits from actually using the combo system :/.

[WildarmsRE5]

S-Roll needs to be nerfed for the sake of spreading the damage through the PAs. It'd dumb that Gunner's lose out on half their damage by not flipping when they're one of the few classes that benifits from actually using the combo system :/.can we just like. . . remove the S-Roll and put it all to Perfect Keeper? (like most of the games that have those effects when HP is full, makes damage twice stronger.)

[Kondibon]

can we just like. . . remove the S-Roll and put it all to Perfect Keeper? (like most of the games that have those effects when HP is full, makes damage twice stronger.)I actually like S-Roll, I just think it should be something you use when you can but won't miss if you aren't in a situation where you can't or don't need to (for mechanics reasons).

Like ZRA or standing snipe.

[Gardios]

Nerf S-Roll, buff normal damage and make S-Roll apply a damage boost when you actually evade stuff with it. http://i.imgur.com/xHVpBD3.gif

[Kondibon]

Nerf S-Roll, buff normal damage and make S-Roll apply a damage boost when you actually evade stuff with it. http://i.imgur.com/xHVpBD3.gifI don't see why it needs to have it's mechanics changed. If the damage bonus gets decreased then that's already going to create situations where you'll deal damage faster by doing PAs right after one another instead of s-rolling again.

I think the whole s-roll line of skills was meant to make up for the damage you'd lose by s-rolling, the problem is that the only PAs worth using with it are the strong ones with long animations, not the fast weak ones with short animations.

[Gardios]

Was half-joking. Half, because I actually wouldn't mind if it worked that way. After all, you'd still get the bonus damage as long as you don't use it nilly-willy or just for positioning.

[Kondibon]

Was half-joking. Half, because I actually wouldn't mind if it worked that way. After all, you'd still get the bonus damage as long as you don't use it nilly-willy or just for positioning.Give melee classes a Just Counter bonus skill and we have a deal. :U

[Chdata]

I'd prefer stronger ZRA and nerfed sroll.

Aka the same damage, but juggled around a bit as to how it's activated.

[GoldenFalcon]

S-rolling into point blank is fun

[Chdata]

TBH, I want twin daggers to have an air-dash that doesn't drop you.

So basically, you can quad dash in midair forever (for a long time as you slowly, but surely, descend).

lolo

[Sanguine2009]

i would kill for something like that even if its not attached to daggers. a true aerial weapon would be tons of fun

[Chdata]

Well TMGs can play without ever touching the ground without having to worry about PP like daggers.

You even have mobility that doesn't require PP or locking on to an enemy.

[Sanguine2009]

it is more effective generally to fight on the ground with mechguns though. i would prefer a weapon that focuses on aerial combat and is effective and practical with it rather that it just being a neat trick it can do

[GoldenFalcon]

it is more effective generally to fight on the ground with mechguns though.

infinity fire detected

[Kamekur]

TBH, I want twin daggers to have an air-dash that doesn't drop you.

So basically, you can quad dash in midair forever (for a long time as you slowly, but surely, descend).

lolo

You can't jump midair nor do LAs to cancel weapon switches/dashes.

[Miyuki_Kamiko]

Ship 2 didn't even reach 100% on the first Luther EQ.

actually ship 2 has made over 100% almost every time the only time ship 2 didn't reach 100% was when Luther was a unscheduled EQ and the ship was pretty much empty due to E3 being Live nobody cared enough to run the EQ because they all were watching E3 and it was like around 7pm eastern which is 8am JP time and most jp players play from 5am eastern to 12pm eastern on ship 2

[Chdata]

You can't jump midair nor do LAs to cancel weapon switches/dashes.

Oh right.

Still, a dash that acts like a forward swoop (I think one of the PAs is like this) that allows for hover-like travel would be neat. As long as it doesn't detriment normal quad dashing on the ground. And being able to step attack in midair without losing altitude.

[Xaelouse]

actually ship 2 has made over 100% almost every time the only time ship 2 didn't reach 100% was when Luther was a unscheduled EQ and the ship was pretty much empty due to E3 being Live nobody cared enough to run the EQ because they all were watching E3 and it was like around 7pm eastern which is 8am JP time and most jp players play from 5am eastern to 12pm eastern on ship 2

but E3 was ass from start to finish. I would rather done Luther
and there was definitely nothing going on at 7pm

[Z-0]

I think people are forgetting that less players = less kills required for the percentage counter. Less players being on doesn't mean anything. . _.b

[Daiyousei]

So all the good players be watching E3 then.

[GoldenFalcon]

Oh right.

Still, a dash that acts like a forward swoop (I think one of the PAs is like this) that allows for hover-like travel would be neat. As long as it doesn't detriment normal quad dashing on the ground. And being able to step attack in midair without losing altitude.

God Eater 2 lets people do this with the shortsword

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

E3. You mean Nintendo?

They pretty much cleaned house this year.

[Chdata]

In retrospect, it was kinda silly to say SHUNKA wasn't OP based on TA alone. That ignores the entire rest of the game.

Actually, it was kinda silly to think as such the moment SEGA was considering nerfing it.

[Shiyo]

S-Roll needs to be nerfed for the sake of spreading the damage through the PAs. It'd dumb that Gunner's lose out on half their damage by not flipping when they're one of the few classes that benifits from actually using the combo system :/.

S roll really needs entirely removed. It makes a bunch of PA's simply not viable without completely screwing up your camera/view and are mega awkward to use, and completely ruins the entire point of being able to set 3 PA's per palette like melee when you realistically can only use one PA per palette.

It just makes the game much worse, makes balance harder,gives you less options, and is just a nightmare.

[Kondibon]

S roll really needs entirely removed. It makes a bunch of PA's simply not viable without completely screwing up your camera/view and are mega awkward to use, and completely ruins the entire point of being able to set 3 PA's per palette like melee when you realistically can only use one PA per palette.

It just makes the game much worse, makes balance harder,gives you less options, and is just a nightmare.I could say the same thing about elemental masteries on the force and techer trees. Element Weak hit, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with having situational bonuses, and if anything more of them need to be situational. It should be strong enough that it's worth using when you hav ethe oppritunity but weak enough that in some situations just using another PA is more effecient.

As I've said before a lot of the PAs that work well with it have animations that are longer than flipping so the result is that flipping always deals more damage than just casting the PA twice. If it was more like 20% damage and the difference was distributed elsewhere you wouldn't feel like you have to use it all the time, but when you DO happen to be flipping it'll help make up for the lost damage.

[Radical Dreamer]

I could say the same thing about elemental masteries on the force and techer trees. Element Weak hit, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with having situational bonuses, and if anything more of them need to be situational. It should be strong enough that it's worth using when you hav ethe oppritunity but weak enough that in some situations just using another PA is more effecient.

As I've said before a lot of the PAs that work well with it have animations that are longer than flipping so the result is that flipping always deals more damage than just casting the PA twice. If it was more like 20% damage and the difference was distributed elsewhere you wouldn't feel like you have to use it all the time, but when you DO happen to be flipping it'll help make up for the lost damage.

Why not just make it so you have to be actually dodging an attack with the flip in order to receive the damage bonus? This will give GUs a powerful but somewhat situational counter that will make their aggro-grabbing skills like Showtime actually worthwhile to use.

[Kondibon]

Why not just make it so you have to be actually dodging an attack with the flip in order to receive the damage bonus? This will give GUs a powerful but somewhat situational counter that will make their aggro-grabbing skills like Showtime actually worthwhile to use.Someone suggested that before. If the damage bonus gets lowered then using it willynilly won't be effecient anyway.