How many of us hate TD now?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

BR nerf aside (doesn't matter to anyone decent anyway), I've been running into the worst TD groups two nights in a row with a bunch of terribad foreign players.

I had RAs tagging as many goldras as they can up north to SC in the most recent TD1.

Ilmegid is the single worst thing in game right now. Bad FOs doing ~4k a hit. Making goldras chase them, making me chase the goldras... so it's a massive waste of time. Also, dishonarable mention to every FO i see who's first, and only tech they cast on TD1 wave 4 is ilmegid. Not one fucking zondeel!

I think I was the only braver (of like the... 3 total there) that was solo clearing waves with war cry+KF.

I was stuck on b15 (ship2, duh) for this atrocity. Saw way too many english names in the lobby. Knew I was in for some shit runs.



Pug quality tanked pretty hard. So why do you hate TD these days?

[oratank]

well it still doing well here on ship 8 ilmegid kill everything on there way. just don't step on vita block.

[Infinity Series]

i hate it if some gaijin just entered mpa and then AFK-ing till the end

[Sanguine2009]

i love td.... but i hate the b20ians that infect lower blocks to get carried and drag everyone else down

[Z-0]

I love TD, it gives me lots of cubes.

[LordKaiser]

You're not alone and it even happens in TD1 as well. The funny thing is that the TD2 quest was nerfed to be easier. The few times i S ranked the quest, I've received no more than the clone weapons that can be traded for Xcubes...

Anyway I will keep using my Lv.55 Hu in all quests. I won't switch to my Lv.70 Br. just to do these. I'm strong enough to destroy infections with 2 or 3 Hatous so I stay behind the north wall if there's no one behind the wall but lately the walls are being destroyed even on the 1rst phase... I was in b11 and then it happened in b210...

[Chdata]

TD is still awesome.

If you have a well organized MPA

And regardless, you can almost always refund a 250% no matter what kinda shiz happens, unless you lose all towers...

And yeah kaiser, it's common to only get 10*. I've only actually gotten an 11* twice in all of my TD.

Also people seem to misunderstand what makes Il Megid "op / really viable".

It's not like SHUNKA where it was "op / really viable" even if you're a lower level not necessarily even needing good gear. Il Megid only becomes OP when you are at the point that you have a high level and good gear enough to hit at least 8k+ damage.

In TD, you especially should pay attention to your placement. You're going to be grabbing aggro with it, don't be the prick who's grabbing all of the goldas away from groups of player who can kill them faster.

[RollTheDice]

Dumb tech spammers.

[.Jack]

Doing team EQ is nice, always a certain 3 run EQ even with random dc's. Get a good 4 person group together and do most of the heavy lifting and it shouldn't be hard to get 3 runs in even with a bad group.

[Shadowth117]

While its a neat idea and kind of a cool change of pace, it really doesn't interest me all that much. I played a LOT of horde mode stuff on games like Gears of War 3 and did my share of Nazi Zombies. Compared to that, a much shorter, more limited thing like TD is shit.

Yeah, you can pwn the crap out of it and get more drops that way, but whoop de doo. I want my survival missions where it matters how long you can actually go for.

I see the appeal for people if you take it for what it is. But to me it really just feels like a watered down form of something that had better versions of itself in other games that I loved. 5 waves and a boss wave? Piss off. While something like Gears of War wasn't infinite, it was difficult enough to be fun and the extra modifiers you could stick on added a lot to replay value along with the difficulty.

[Chik'Tikka]

yeah, need less il megid, need more zondeel... JP groups too, it's annoying+^_^+

[g361656110]

Really annoys me that it takes more than one shunka to kill goldrahdas....Northern heros are more annoying than ever, and still doing most damage to vibrace post-nerf...TD has not been generous.

[Melodys]

Had a b11 8/12 Fo MPA in b10 for TD1 including me. Without even guessing, I knew what was going to happen. II megids flying everywhere and killing everything. No Fos were doing poor damage less than 7k (except for the occasional JA mess up). Wave 4 is like the same. Everyone camping to the side of the towers with II megid ready and one fo talis zondieling. The other 4 Bravers and Gunners couldn't do much. Had frequent 11 minute runs that way. The only problem were the bosses since there was no wb and the nerfed shunkas couldn't kill vibra as fast. 6 fos were already camping at the back after taking care of the mobs with vibra at the top of the map.

Many of the eng pugs don't have high damage crafted II megid which means they don't do enough damage and/or run out of PP too quick which leads to the mobs chasing them. If they were smart, they would at least stand midway from the tower and retreat back to MPA if they know their damage isn't enough instead of poorly attempting to kill things on spawn.

Also, the shunka nerf made it harder for bravers to kill. They'd need good gear if they want to destroy a goldra back bomb in the first hit and stop it dead on its tracks now I think. How much hp does it have?

[g361656110]

Had a b11 8/12 Fo MPA in b10 for TD1 including me. Without even guessing, I knew what was going to happen. II megids flying everywhere and killing everything. No Fos were doing poor damage less than 7k (except for the occasional JA mess up). Wave 4 is like the same. Everyone camping to the side of the towers with II megid ready and one fo talis zondieling. The other 4 Bravers and Gunners couldn't do much. Had frequent 11 minute runs that way. The only problem were the bosses since there was no wb and the nerfed shunkas couldn't kill vibra as fast. 6 fos were already camping at the back after taking care of the mobs with vibra at the top of the map.

Many of the eng pugs don't have high damage crafted II megid which means they don't do enough damage and/or run out of PP too quick which leads to the mobs chasing them. If they were smart, they would at least stand midway from the tower and retreat back to MPA if they know their damage isn't enough instead of poorly attempting to kill things on spawn.

Also, the shunka nerf made it harder for bravers to kill. They'd need good gear if they want to destroy a goldra back bomb in the first hit and stop it dead on its tracks now I think. How much hp does it have?


I've been hitting around 7500 with variance of 500 on mobs post nerf first hit, the cores seems to be destroyed upon the first stab, so I guess along the lines of 7000ish?

[Aurorra]

Unfortunately all the bad bravers seem to have migrated to bad forces.

A shit force playing northern hero with Ilmegid is a lot worse than a shit braver playing northern hero.

[wefwq]

It's been much more worse since new LQ come into the plays.
Lots of lower level character are now able to join SH along with their low tier gear.

[btw-Niji]

can't wait until they nerf illmegid.

i'm sick of that tech grabbing aggro from far away and messing up people who can actually kill stuff . . .

but w/e, it's not like I even pug any more.

[LordKaiser]

If they move away from the wall when they get aggro on the boss it would be perfect but no.. They fight right on the wall's direction.

[Sizustar]

can't wait until they nerf illmegid.

i'm sick of that tech grabbing aggro from far away and messing up people who can actually kill stuff . . .

but w/e, it's not like I even pug any more.

Not very likely, since it's not a Tech that can deal great damage unlike Shunka.
You need specific gear and build to be able to deal good damage, similiar to the EL build and gear.

[Alma]

If they move away from the wall when they get aggro on the boss it would be perfect but no.. They fight right on the wall's direction.


^ this, so annoying that they keep themselves near the wall after grabbing aggro
i seen a wall break on wave 1 because of those...

also i seen a wondrous 1k ilmegid on TD recently...
wonder how they got that number with lv60 ish character...

[Sizustar]

^ this, so annoying that they keep themselves near the wall after grabbing aggro
i seen a wall break on wave 1 because of those...

also i seen a wondrous 1k ilmegid on TD recently...
wonder how they got that number with lv60 ish character...

That is low...even with the wrong skill build(Some people forgot to change to dark build)
I've never seen 1k damage.

TD1, with a good number of good Il Megid can clear it under 10 minute


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGcRwbtLI94"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGcRwbtLI94

[Chdata]

lol, that's awesome

Anyone wanna join an ILMEGID supremacy group to get 4run TDs with ZEROEFFORT?

Required: Consistent 9k+ w/ il megid.

il barta recommended

probably one or two RaHu

[Xaelouse]

It would be more fun if you could actually control the hand like a RC missile of sorts.
but FO is never about fun. Neither is TD

[Atmius]

Anyone wanna join an ILMEGID supremacy group to get 4run TDs with ZEROEFFORT?
Required: Consistent 9k+ w/ il megid.
probably one or two RaHu

If you require a ra to carry you, then there's nothing supreme about il megid.

[Sizustar]

If you require a ra to carry you, then there's nothing supreme about il megid.

Ra is just Weakbullet dispensor~

[Chdata]

If you require a ra to carry you, then there's nothing supreme about il megid.

It's simple math to realize a single RA can enable near instantaneous boss killing.

Plus, you probably can't sub-10 TD with an MPA of only RA. Definitely not nearly as easily, that is.

Anyone got a link to that cosmo break only MPA? lol

[Skize]

Well I made a FO/TE recently, and I have to admit, it's harder to Zondeel in TD2 than it is in TD1. Cause while in TD1, they come at a straight line to you, in TD2 they're spread in a line horizontally. IlMegid helps me get the aggro so I can Zondeel after. Although at level 57/37, I'm doing 6-7k IlMegid.

But yeah, TD is a lot worse than before. Especially since the new LQ. B20ians have literally spread across all blocks at this point and I've had some of the worst TD runs I've ever seen. People literally rage quit if they feel like the wall will go down in TD2. The only people that stay are JP players, cause they're just that much more respectful of others. This is why I don't need an NA/EU server. This crap is bad enough as it is. I don't need a whole server full of this.

[Chdata]

Do we know if il megid can sub10 TD2?

[Z-0]

Sub 10 is not insta-4 run. You have to loot, put up games and wait out the 30 second warp timer. You need to get to low 9 / high 8 to get 4 runs without having to skip loot; this may be possible with concentrated Ilmegid users (I dunno), but you're better just running with a load of Bravers. We've been getting around 7:30 runs of TD lately, and that's after the Shunka nerf (cuz they're still the best class).

When it comes to Zondeel'ing in TD2, it's actually much more useful than you might think, but the Zondeel spots are not so obvious. Next time one comes up and I do a proper MPA for it, I'll make a video of how it's done (since I'll probably be FO again).

Also RA is far more than a WB dispenser if played properly, though BR does admittedly beat it at pretty much everything otherwise (except cluster respawn skill huehuehuehue).

Finally, Ilmegid has no chance of scoring 5 runs, which has been done once before on Ship 4.

[Chdata]

Obviously it can't do 5, which requires full knowledge of spawn locations/effective zondeel/being able to insta-ko zondeeled goldas, but if it's a way to facilitate guaranteed 4 runs with a much lower skill ceiling...

And yeah, I'll fix my question.

Can Il megid do sub-9:15 TD2 (and TD?).

[oratank]

Satellite Cannon at zondeel spot only dust left

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

After thinking about it (though this is probably obvious), the bigger problem with ilmegid is how it literally plays the game for FOs rather than just the damage it's capable of doing given a 50 dark weedle park, dark TE, FO main.

It's just so perfectly made to play the game for a FO that zondeel->any other tech is too much effort (and probably slightly more PP).

Because of such a braindead style, teamwork through zondeeling (and to a lesser extent, freezing) has become rarer. What most FOs are thinking; 'as long as I can deal good damage to many enemies in one move, I don't need to zondeel'.

Thing is, that is obviously more and more detrimental with the less FOs you have ilmegid-ing in the MPA.

We've all seen what a full MPA of ilmegid-ing FOs can do (and they still had someone use zondeel!), but when you have 2-4 FOs throwing ilmegids for ~6k, someone should just zondeel for the BRs, RAs, and GUs to wipe the crowd in under 5 seconds.

Now more than ever, I just solo the first goldra pack north (yes I'm a BR) in the final wave of TD1 with pugs because FOs tend to forego zondeeling goldras at the tower in favor of ilmegid these days.

[Chdata]

(talis is cheaper and more dmg)

if you're like the only fo, unless you do 11-13k il megids you should probably zondeel instead.

if there's nobody staying near your side of the map to kill the zondeels, you should il megid aggro instead just to get things off the wall

[Z-0]

The thing is though, Zondeel > Any other tech is still better than Ilmegid in a large majority of situations, people just don't realise it because Ilmegid is so braindead easy to use.

My friend was playing fire FO last TD2, and kept scoring first despite a large majority of Ilmegid spammers on the map, simply because Zondeel > Power Nafoie craft was far better than spamming Ilmegid.

[Rien]

I haven't seen a nafoie in AGES.

How much does he hit?

[Skize]

Lol, Zondeel does nothing when in pugs. Have you SEEN what pugs are like right now? At one point, I zondeeled during an entire wave, and no one came to kill them. They were too busy crowding around a boss. As a Dark Fo/Te, I understand that my 7-13k IlMegid won't do much, but these pugs are horrible. The only time Zondeel works is in a Team MPA.

I'm sorry, but don't expect me to Zondeel in a pug match anymore with level 70/70's wearing Full Cylinder +10, ex. 9's. The gross incompetence in a pug is too much for me to even care anymore. My Zondeels do nothing when the pug MPA does nothing.

[GoldenFalcon]

I also had issues with the Zondeel itself

Since I haven't crafted it for +1 meter range, I notice that a lot of the time, the Goldrahdas (and El Ardas) just kinda.. teleport out of the Zondeel. I don't know if I'm just not casting it at the right height, but it's very annoying and I feel like a failure qq

[Naizuya Tatzubani]

Eh, I haven't had any motivation to do any of the TDs since they have drops I don't really want.

[Aine]

You can't really compare Ilmegid and Zondeel because the strategies are incompatible. The more Forces there are, the better Ilmegid works. For a premade MPA you need to decide whether you're going Ilmegid with mostly Forces or Zondeel with mostly Bravers. For a pub, you should look at the class composition and decide.


Also RA is far more than a WB dispenser if played properly, though BR does admittedly beat it at pretty much everything otherwise (except cluster respawn skill huehuehuehue).

That's selling Ranger short, pre-charged Satellite Cannon into a Zondeel is better than Hatou into a Zondeel (obviously only works at the start of waves, or when there's a large gap between spawns). Also Bind Bullet can be used to stop Golds from running away.

[Z-0]

While a Sat Cannon is better into a Zondeel, you should be using that Zondeel to build hits for Finish to wipe it though.

For my TD runs as RA, I basically just collect crystals, leave Cosmos / Cluster in spots to stop things running away, and solo the bosses (although not Bibras cuz that bitch has way too much HP). I couldn't imagine playing RA in a PUG game; controlling huge spawns as RA isn't that easy, plus people have this irrational hate for "northern hero'ing", even though people should learn to do it if they're concerned about getting extra runs.

I use Sat Cannon like... twice on spawns (end of Wave 1 and start of Wave 2). Apart from that it's just assisting Bravers to help them finish.

[cheapgunner]

I will admit I do spam il megid in TD1 and 2, but only cuz 1) I don't have the money to get 2 more force and a techer tree for every element and 2) Most of the other force/techer users spam it as well.

Also, zondeel tome has terribad range and if it had a PSU-lite range like resta did from there then it would be feasible. I don't wanna run around like a deku scrub trying to wrangle as many golds as I can while I pray that the pubs I'm with strike them as they are bound.

[Macman]

I have that same problem where I'll zondeel a group of golds and they'll just lag-a-port out of it. Now I can usually hold them if I cast it early, then cast it a second time to keep the effect going, but that's rather PP ineffecient.

Thinking I might put 1 point into territory burst and when i can, craft zondeel for more range. Anyone know how much of a difference that would make?

[Z-0]

It makes a huge difference. Get them both immediately.

Also, you should always cast a pre-emptive Zondeel and then a second... why would it be PP inefficient if it actually keeps them in?

[Macman]

Because it's less PP that I'll have available for nafoie/ilfoie/ilmegid depending on what build I'm running. If I can keep them in long enough with just one Zondeel (and hopefully that's all it will take if other people are attacking the group I'm holding) then that's more left for other things, like more zondeel for the next spawn or doing a bit of damage myself.

[btw-Niji]

Lmfao.

[Alenoir]

Because it's less PP that I'll have available for nafoie/ilfoie/ilmegid depending on what build I'm running. If I can keep them in long enough with just one Zondeel (and hopefully that's all it will take if other people are attacking the group I'm holding) then that's more left for other things, like more zondeel for the next spawn or doing a bit of damage myself.

Chances are, if you're doing Zondeel, things would be melting fast enough that you won't need to worry about your PP. Unless the MPA is crappy, then yeah.

[Skize]

Chances are, if you're doing Zondeel, things would be melting fast enough that you won't need to worry about your PP. Unless the MPA is crappy, then yeah.

In Pugs, it's a complete toss up if you have a competent MPA or not. Unfortunately, it's usually not...

[LordKaiser]

Today good runs all the way in b14 with one of them being Quest Clear with all walls intact. This is my third run where all walls are in place after the Final Wave and all towers in full health.

[Mattykins]

Also, zondeel tome has terribad range

Hi, what is Territory Burst?

[red1228]

Territory Burst is a Techer Skill Perk that roughly doubles the range of support techs, such as; Shifta, Deband, Resta, Anti & Zondeel.

Zondeel with Territory Burst active (just 1 point is all you need) works great for actually holding things. Otherwise, yeah: Enemies can just run out of it sometimes.

Sadly, this rarely works for me when I play Force in Tower Defense, BUT ONLY because everyone is still up top trying (and failing) to be a Northern Hero. I'll even use a crafted RaBarta (the faster Hit Interval one with improved Status Effect Rate) to freeze the Gold's... Still usually ends up a waste unless I'm with my buddy Deph.

More Zondeel users, please.
More people actually paying attention to what the fuck is going on, rather than trying to be a Northern Hero all the time, please.

[TaigaUC]

I don't even bother doing TD anymore. Or PSO2 in general.
Last few TDs were all terrible (as expected of JP noon time, when it's mostly foreigners playing).
Some of the JP people I've been talking to seem to have quit.
I recently spoke to someone else who said their entire guild quit.

I still think TD should be a mode instead of stupid random quest bullshit.
Also, there's nothing teaching people how they should act in TD, and in fact the game encourages people to be selfish assholes and run off being dickheads alone somehere.

Random team strategy stuff in a game where people mostly do their own thing.
It's just bad design.

[Z-0]

TMore Zondeel users, please.
More people actually paying attention to what the fuck is going on, rather than trying to be a Northern Hero all the time, please.
People should be learning to be Northern Heroes, though. _(:3」∠)_

[oratank]

more Northern Heroes > everything die at spawn point > less time > more run
why not?

[Maenara]

more Northern Heroes > everything die at spawn point > less time > more run
why not?

Because if everyone is up North, when anything slips through at all, by the time people are able to effectively guard the towers, the completion rank has been lowered.

[Z-0]

No, it hasn't. . _. I do all my TDs up north, things slip through and mess up, but it's faster overall and 4 runs are achieved; this has been done in PUG as well.

[Maenara]

Good luck getting your 11*s with four C ranks instead of three S ranks.

[Friyn]

Good luck getting your 11*s with four C ranks instead of three S ranks.
"I cannot pull it off, so therefore no one else can either."

[Maenara]

"I cannot pull it off, so therefore no one else can either."

I'm saying that if you're sacrificing ranks for more runs, you defeat the purpose, and you are. Also, for the record, as someone on ship 2 who only can do runs with randoms, I've managed three runs once. I don't know how the hell you people get four runs without coordination with every person in your MPA.

[RollTheDice]

Good luck getting your 11*s with four C ranks instead of three S ranks.

Okay guy.

[Maenara]

Okay guy.

Shush cutie.

[RollTheDice]

I'm saying that if you're sacrificing ranks for more runs, you defeat the purpose, and you are. Also, for the record, as someone on ship 2 who only can do runs with randoms, I've managed three runs once. I don't know how the hell you people get four runs without coordination with every person in your MPA.

You must be playing with baddies then.

[Maenara]

You must be playing with baddies then.

Obviously. Why don't you show me where I should be going to get half-decent randoms, cutie?

[oratank]

how the thing can slip. i have no idea Are there no warcry kanran ilmegid zondeel Er heelstab?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23772369?ref=search_tag_video
td2 ilmegid 4 run they said

[RollTheDice]

Obviously. Why don't you show me where I should be going to get half-decent randoms, cutie?

Thanks for saying i'm a cutie, cutie!

[Maenara]

Thanks for saying i'm a cutie, cutie!

You're welcome, cutie, but that's not what I asked for, cutie!

[RollTheDice]

You're welcome, cutie, but that's not what I asked for, cutie!

That's something i can't answer for you. Only thing i can say is learn the spawns.

[Maenara]

That's something i can't answer for you. Only thing i can say is learn the spawns.

What do spawns have to do with finding a place where joining random MPAs will net me at least three runs?

[RollTheDice]

What do spawns have to do with finding a place where joining random MPAs will net me at least three runs?

I told you i can't answer that for you.:lol:

[Xaelouse]

Taiga is right that these quests are a joke since they're the complete opposite to the rest of the game's nature.
all up to mechs to save it, I guess. Too bad TD3 is destined to have shit for drops if the exclusive weapons are a wired lance, twin dagger, bow, and wand

[Maenara]

Taiga is right that these quests are a joke since they're the complete opposite to the rest of the game's nature.

Why is this a bad thing? Those quests are the only thing in the game that a group of random people with no collaboration have trouble pulling off correctly. We need more of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnexpectedGameplayChange) because, when the extent of character development is do thing til you reach the cap, then do same thing until you get good gear, you need that 'thing' to be different or it gets boring.

Also, the more different things there are, the harder it gets for things like metagame masterrace shunka class to happen.

[Kumichan]

Obviously. Why don't you show me where I should be going to get half-decent randoms, cutie?

Ditch the force, get a proper class and learn to carry. Problem solved!

[Maenara]

Ditch the force, get a proper class and learn to carry. Problem solved!

I'm RA/HU now.

(Actually right this second I'm HU/RA because my HU is level 68 and I'm working on turning that 68 into a 70, but point still stands).

[Chdata]

Ditch the force, get a proper class and learn to carry. Problem solved!

Afaik, force is one of the only classes that can truly carry TD2 by keeping enemies across the entire map off the wall.

Just not the bigger bosses, unless you're a TeHu or something.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

To respond to something posted earlier, good northern heroes in TD1 make triple runs with pugs an easier feat. A feat I'm so used to seeing that I see any less than 3 runs a failure and not worth the RDR boost. I was lucky enough to constantly have triple runs with randoms till now, which is why i find getting double runs for two days in a row when I made this thread jarring.

A braver played right (give or take a RA, or GU for cleanup) is best for it. Given KC, a spawn should be dead in a smaller span of time than it take for them to travel to the tower and be killed there.

At the tower, or even north, a good zondeel is a major time saver.

Just because goldras get to the tower, and may even be frozen by a burst barrier doesn't mean there's no need to zondeel. Goldras tend to spread out/circle the tower when they get there, while the strongest attacks from most classes have a narrow range. It is more necessary than ever since shunka isn't as adept at cleaning up goldras that stray from the pack. BRs, which had the hands-down most absurd damage output in one PA ever, would now spend almost up to twice the amount of time dealing with strays than before, which is a big deal if 1-2 goldras alive off to the sides of a tower after every pack keeps happening.

You can say the generalized shunning of northern heroes as if they're all harbingers of failure is as much a reason for slow runs as the lack of zondeel.

[supersonix9]

it's so boring.

[Chdata]

The hate from northern heroes is due to the majority of which that used to suck at it.

Additionally, enemies spawn in more locations than just up north.

I was thinking of having a friend pt with so we could zondeel BRAVER.

[Maenara]

We need a TD where the towers are in the center and enemies spawn from every direction, with no predetermined spawn locations that are the same between runs. Looking at the map seen in the TD3 trailer, I'm hoping that TD3 is this. The less predictability, the better.

[Chdata]

We need TD where we have to invade a tower, but you can only damage the main tower after destroying two smaller ones and a boss that when defeated, makes all the darkers become a new flaming version with higher attack power.

And we have the same set up that we have to defend at the same time, but instead of darkers, we have tons of robot drones.

[Shinamori]

We need a TD where the towers are in the center and enemies spawn from every direction, with no predetermined spawn locations that are the same between runs. Looking at the map seen in the TD3 trailer, I'm hoping that TD3 is this. The less predictability, the better.

b20ians will still managed to fuck it up.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The hate from northern heroes is due to the majority of which that used to suck at it.

Additionally, enemies spawn in more locations than just up north.

I was thinking of having a friend pt with so we could zondeel BRAVER.

In TD1?

Only other possibilty is midway north from the side towers on wave 4 and 6. There's also the kartagrots and gwanada wave 3, but that's w/e.

[Chdata]

Once TD3 comes out, every time I party during EN hours I can say...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqM_N4_vBCE

And yeah, TD1. If you want the fastest times you need to learn all the spawns ;O

[Z-0]

We need a TD where the towers are in the center and enemies spawn from every direction, with no predetermined spawn locations that are the same between runs. Looking at the map seen in the TD3 trailer, I'm hoping that TD3 is this. The less predictability, the better.
No thanks.

What's fun is being able to properly strategise and execute to try for better runs.

[Xaeris]

It's not like introducing such a TD would erase the other two from existence.

[Chdata]

That's a subjective stance.

What's fun is having something you have to adapt to in real time.

This is also a subjective stance.

[Maenara]

No thanks.

What's fun is being able to properly strategise and execute to try for better runs.

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING SOUNDS MORE LIKE STRATEGY

"Okay guys, there are six spots that enemies can possibly spawn in. Two people to each spot. Whack enemies before they go anywhere."

vs

"Okay guys, seven people should cover the outer ring, each time mobs spawn, the nearest person should grab as much aggro as possible, then dispatch said mobs before they can get anywhere. Four people go to the cardinal directions of the towers, about 25% of the way to the outer ring, capture any enemies who don't get aggro'd. One person stand at the center and manage towers and infections."

[Chdata]

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING SOUNDS MORE LIKE STRATEGY

"Okay guys, there are six spots that enemies can possibly spawn in. Two people to each spot. Whack enemies before they go anywhere."

vs

"Okay guys, seven people should cover the outer ring, each time mobs spawn, the nearest person should grab as much aggro as possible, then dispatch said mobs before they can get anywhere. Four people go to the cardinal directions of the towers, about 25% of the way to the outer ring, capture any enemies who don't get aggro'd. One person stand at the center and manage towers and infections."

Those both sound like a strategy...

Not to mention, your second strategy is nearly the same as current TD1/2.

"Attempt to spawnkill as much as possible (TD1) / Keep enemies away from their objective (TD2), and a few people get infections".

Not to mention both a strategy for a predefined scenario and a more randomized scenario can both have in-depth tactics and important roles.

Depending on how huge the map is, a TD with just a tower in the center would probably still have camp-able spawns, maybe requiring more FO or something.

[Z-0]

Yeah, like Chdata said, your second strategy sounds like TD1/2 already. ;/ Neither are set, they have their own variations which you have to adapt to and strategise to.

[Maenara]

Those both sound like a strategy... your point is?

Not to mention, your second strategy is nearly the same as current TD1/2.

"Attempt to spawnkill as much as possible (TD1) / Keep enemies away from their objective (TD2), and a few people get infections".

The difference is that more work is put into proper positioning, where as this thread has been arguing that it's perfectly possible to slap everyone in the same locations and do perfectly fine. In strategy games like Fire Emblem, you start out knowing where all the enemies are as well as what they can do. However, you have no idea how they will move, and you do not know whether reinforcements will appear, and if they do, you have little way of telling where they will appear. You need to properly strategize to minimize damage dealt by the expected, as well as effectively eliminate the enemy.

If Fire Emblem were like TD, then there would be 6 squares that you are flat out told enemies are going to appear in in one turn. You move your units to those squares, effectively disabling enemy spawning before any enemies are capable of doing anything. You already knew ahead of time that you can block spawns by sitting in the square they'll appear in. And you knew ahead of time which squares those enemies would appear in, you didn't strategize, you put A at B to stop C from happening.

[Chdata]

But for TD1 at least, isn't possible to memorize the different spawn variations because certain variations lead to pre-set patterns?

A good example is TD1 w4.

I wouldn't mind a TD3 where you really can't spawn kill all scenarios or memorize the spawns, that requires true mastery of being able to adapt to rounding up groups of spawns that appear in undefined locations. Of course, this would be hell for random MPAs. Or perhaps it would be simpler, because in Maneara's MPA the random MPA strategy is to just stay near center tower.


The difference is that more work is put into proper positioning, where as this thread has been arguing that it's perfectly possible to slap everyone in the same locations and do perfectly fine. In strategy games like Fire Emblem, you start out knowing where all the enemies are as well as what they can do. However, you have no idea how they will move, and you do not know whether reinforcements will appear, and if they do, you have little way of telling where they will appear. You need to properly strategize to minimize damage dealt by the expected, as well as effectively eliminate the enemy.

If Fire Emblem were like TD, then there would be 6 squares that you are flat out told enemies are going to appear in in one turn. You move your units to those squares, effectively disabling enemy spawning before any enemies are capable of doing anything. You already knew ahead of time that you can block spawns by sitting in the square they'll appear in. And you knew ahead of time which squares those enemies would appear in, you didn't strategize, you put A at B to stop C from happening.

Erm, the current TD's both take very specific proper positioning as well. Lacking even one FO who knows how to zondeel in the right locations will ruin your MPA's chance at 4 runs.

Not to mention, it is possible to strategize in just the way you are talking about, in PUBS. That's sort of how I play PUBS as a FO. In team MPA we are coordinated enough to be spawn killing, but in PUBS that's not the case.

I just spent an EN TD2 doing all of the following:

1. Reminding people that infections / predicahda are MPA killers
2. Attempting to zondeel spawn locations, many times this broke down to zondeeling large concentrations of mobs for others to kill faster.
3. Zondeel pulling things away from walls and towers, especially the Wolgas.
4. Il Zan pulling things away from distant walls.
5. Using Il Megid to pull tons of aggro at once while everyone was busy not being able to kill any of the bosses in less than 5 minutes.
6. Killing the bosses with il barta / stunning vibrace while at the same trying to grab aggro from enemies running at towers.
7. Thinking about when and where to use my Julius Nifta pbs.

There were a lot of times where I saved towers from being destroyed by having to zondeel a bunch of enemies away from them. It's a surprise we even A-ranked with 3/4 walls gone. Of course the second time, green exploded from vibrace bomb while I was preoccupied with blue tower to be stunning vibras.

Like in Fire Emblem, I know a general location of where enemies will spawn. Especially with walls broken, I have to decided whether or not I protect a more northern tower or grab all the mobs sinking into the southern walls. Or should I handle the boss because noone's killing it?

We didn't get a third because everyone else kills too slowly... yay EN.

Of course, if a TD is made where you can't memorize some spawnzeel spots, I'd hope that it's at least something where you can 4 run it if you have a very, very skilled MPA.

In TD1 I play BR more and my strategy is more of when and where to combat finish. Other than that, shunka / hatou.

RaHu has its own set of important roles, such as Ragne aggro grab.

Dunno if anything else is used in "efficient" TD.

[Z-0]

If Fire Emblem were like TD, then there would be 6 squares that you are flat out told enemies are going to appear in in one turn. You move your units to those squares, effectively disabling enemy spawning before any enemies are capable of doing anything. You already knew ahead of time that you can block spawns by sitting in the square they'll appear in. And you knew ahead of time which squares those enemies would appear in, you didn't strategize, you put A at B to stop C from happening.
This is Tower Defense 2.

TD2 has about 3 or 4 different variations which you have to plan for and adapt to, and the position for each variation is not similar to another.

For example, Wave 1 on the right hand side can either spawn enemies in the corner, or a line across the middle of the map (and maybe some other variations I don't remember). To plan for this, I place my Talis in the corner of the map, but stand in the middle of the line, so I can react if the line spawns instead by throwing my Talis into the ground and Zondeel'ing on the spot.

There's lot of things like this across all of TD2.

[Chdata]

And yeah, as z-0 mentioned, even in spawnzeel TMPA, it's like that.

A more randomized TD would probably have to be only 5 waves for us to 4 run, or something.

[Maenara]

And yeah, as z-0 mentioned, even in spawnzeel TMPA, it's like that.

A more randomized TD would probably have to be only 5 waves for us to 4 run, or something.

I'm sorry, you must be mistaking me for someone who wants TD to be easy enough for you to pull off in ~9 minutes.

[Niagara]

A more randomized TD would probably have to be only 5 waves for us to 4 run, or something.


And since there is a Wave 7 in TD3...

It probably won't be randomized.

[Chdata]

It's not easy at all to pull off TD in 9 minutes...

(at least until you have a fully competent MPA that's taken the time to memorize things)

[Skize]

Ok, let's be real here. Any challenging/complicated TDs and you'll never even get to achieve B rank in pugs. Your average gamer these days has the mental capacity of a 5 year old. Today was a prime example. TD2 shows up. I just turned 60/39 FO/TE. End of final round, I had 1144 points alone. Next closest was 310. We had 5k crystals by wave 4. Can you guess whats going wrong here?

[Chdata]

EN players not bothering to learn how to do better as usual =/

But... with my carry our TD2 EN pubs were able to A rank. Though that bomb in the second one... ;_; I can't cover the entire map.

[Xaeris]

I definitely see what's wrong there. We probably disagree though.

[Maenara]

It's for the best though, see if anyone had wasted time going for that bomb you'd have endangered your precious four runs.

[Chdata]

In EN pubs the goal is to avoid more than 2 towers being destroyed.

Other than that, you're pretty much going to get 2 towers destroyed.

[Maenara]

I've seen four towers get destroyed and only get two runs. I've seen zero towers get destroyed and only get two runs. Somewhere over the bell curve there's a third run for me.

[oratank]

with the guys who try to archive 4 run that's mean they know thing about spawn pattern when the time that should be the northern heroes and shouldn't. even they can't get 4 run it won't ruin your 3 run. the one that ruin your 3 run are those who hunting gold star and god crystal farmer with mean they didn't learn anything about this eq at all

[Z-0]

If someone is getting 4 runs, towers are not going to get destroyed. If something is able to attack a tower for long enough that it's able to drop rank, it's not 4-run quality run at all. . _.

[Asellus]

BR nerf aside (doesn't matter to anyone decent anyway), I've been running into the worst TD groups two nights in a row with a bunch of terribad foreign players.

I had RAs tagging as many goldras as they can up north to SC in the most recent TD1.

Ilmegid is the single worst thing in game right now. Bad FOs doing ~4k a hit. Making goldras chase them, making me chase the goldras... so it's a massive waste of time. Also, dishonarable mention to every FO i see who's first, and only tech they cast on TD1 wave 4 is ilmegid. Not one fucking zondeel!

I think I was the only braver (of like the... 3 total there) that was solo clearing waves with war cry+KF.

I was stuck on b15 (ship2, duh) for this atrocity. Saw way too many english names in the lobby. Knew I was in for some shit runs.



Pug quality tanked pretty hard. So why do you hate TD these days?


I didn't read this but I'm 99% sure I agree with all of it. I'm absolutely fucking sick of TD1 and TD2 because of bad groups. I refuse to give 100% anymore.

[LordKaiser]

LOL I don't dislike these quests at all. They're by far the only 2 quests that creates entertaining drama. I can't wait what the third will bring.

Players just need a little of common sense to win but they're not alert and maybe half asleep. Common sense includes luring a boss away from the wall if holding the aggro, when Vibras throws a suspicious ball, track where it will fall and destroy it ASAP (1 is enough to destroy a tower). Don't compete with people for crystals and I see this often, it seems that for them having a gold star is more important.

Please tell me that drops are not related to this yellow star.

[Xaelouse]

Why is this a bad thing? Those quests are the only thing in the game that a group of random people with no collaboration have trouble pulling off correctly.

That's the problem. They're the -only- thing where you need an actual team doing actual team stuff. There was really no need for teams in this game until now, and many players will continue to have this mindset of doing whatever they want until team play is taken seriously by Sega themselves. As in, not tag it in as random quests to catch people off-guard and give them 15 minutes to gather people up and prepare.

[EvilMag]

We have a certain somebody showing up for TD3
[spoiler-box]Do you hate TD now?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqItXsLCQAAumd2.png[/spoiler-box]

[Gardios]

He should grab the entire planet and butt smack it.

I wonder if we get an Elder + Luther EQ some day?

[Shadowth117]

He should grab the entire planet and butt smack it.

I wonder if we get an Elder + Luther EQ some day?

We'd need like 3 elders then in that. Elder is a complete joke compared to Luther as far as health goes.

[Chdata]

He should grab the entire planet and butt smack it.

I wonder if we get an Elder + Luther EQ some day?

X���Q


We'd need like 3 elders then in that. Elder is a complete joke compared to Luther as far as health goes.

free explore

[Maenara]

We have a certain somebody showing up for TD3
[spoiler-box]Do you hate TD now?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqItXsLCQAAumd2.png[/spoiler-box]

Is this real? Please based god yes

[Xaeris]

[Apprentice] called in her homies, huh? That's cool, that's cool. If Elder were being smart, he'd just lob meteors at the towers from high in the sky, but whatever.

[Chdata]

Actually, if that means more psychowands....

[Maenara]

Actually, if that means more psychowands....

They should add Psycho Wand / Nachts that drop from that specific Elder. 7*s that look like the real deal!

[Macman]

Fighting elder in a mechsuit...

Then everyone forgets about the 30 Goldys that spawn with him and all the towers die, game over.

[oratank]

Fighting elder in a mechsuit...
ra- sorry no wb here busy to pilot the hype train

[Chdata]

You could WB then enter the suit.

[Aine]

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING SOUNDS MORE LIKE STRATEGY

"Okay guys, there are six spots that enemies can possibly spawn in. Two people to each spot. Whack enemies before they go anywhere."

vs

"Okay guys, seven people should cover the outer ring, each time mobs spawn, the nearest person should grab as much aggro as possible, then dispatch said mobs before they can get anywhere. Four people go to the cardinal directions of the towers, about 25% of the way to the outer ring, capture any enemies who don't get aggro'd. One person stand at the center and manage towers and infections."

It's not as simple as that though. In fact, a Zondeel-based run is pretty much the most strategic you can get in TD because it involves working out the most efficient way to complete various tasks (kill mobs, kill bosses, get rid of infections - yes, these appear at fixed times too) using the least amount of people and resources so that you can cover all possible variations.

On the other end of the spectrum is an Ilmegid-based run (http://www.nicozon.net/watch/sm23772369) which is basically just standing around firing Ilmegid until the enemies die, no need to memorize spawns. This is what all TDs will become if you make spawns completely random.

[Friyn]

It's not as simple as that though. In fact, a Zondeel-based run is pretty much the most strategic you can get in TD because it involves working out the most efficient way to complete various tasks (kill mobs, kill bosses, get rid of infections - yes, these appear at fixed times too) using the least amount of people and resources so that you can cover all possible variations.

On the other end of the spectrum is an Ilmegid-based run (http://www.nicozon.net/watch/sm23772369) which is basically just standing around firing Ilmegid until the enemies die, no need to memorize spawns. This is what all TDs will become if you make spawns completely random.

I like how shit like Il Megid even got past alpha testing phase. No, wait. There probably wasn't even one.

[cheapgunner]

Fighting elder in a mechsuit...

Then everyone forgets about the 30 Goldys that spawn with him and all the towers die, game over.

Better yet, Elder lobs Vibras-lite bombs with a 10 sec fuse. all the towers die at the same time due to multiple bombs.


I like how shit like Il Megid even got past alpha testing phase. No, wait. There probably wasn't even one.

I think we are the Alpha testing phase...

[Chdata]

Elder crushes goldas without breaking their back bombs, then tosses them at us and towers.

[Gaylar]

Probably not related to the more recent discussion, but this is why I hate TD now.
Apparently my month of premium after coming back was too good for me- I was able to avoid people like this, but now I see what everyone means.

Fuck people who do shit like this in particular.

*names censored so not to play the name-and-shame game, and I prefer to remain anon
[spoiler-box]
http://puu.sh/9ufs1/e610798711.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

It also ranged from "I spam Ilmegid!" "I spam Ilzonde!" and "Die!" whenever a normal attack was used.

Also managed to cap this- now I'm not usually one to rag on someones gear; because I understand not everyone has access to premium or has the time to farm hardcore for 10*/11*s...

But come on..
[spoiler-box]
http://puu.sh/9ufsg/0b3b5db8c6.jpg
[/spoiler-box]
On a 60 FO/40 something TE? This wasn't a melee TE.

Those horror stories every keeps spouting about seem seriously believable now.
*fun fact: only got 2 runs. This was on B-17. On SH.

[Sanguine2009]

the TD3 is subtitled despair right? its more fitting than sega can imagine

[LonelyGaruga]

We have a certain somebody showing up for TD3
[spoiler-box]Do you hate TD now?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqItXsLCQAAumd2.png[/spoiler-box]

Is this genuine? I'm suspicious based on his placement (there's no way his model isn't sticking through something it shouldn't), and because wow if this was actually happening, what are the odds that it would go this long without being advertised in a trailer? And yet...it really does look legit enough to raise doubts that it isn't a simple hoax, and, barring some challenges I could foresee implementing Elder into TD3, it's totally something that sounds like something Sega would do. Can anyone confirm the (il)legitimacy of this image?

[moorebounce]

Has anybody tried to make a etiquette guide for doing TDs? If there isn't one somebody should make a TD etiquette guide. It would go a long way in stopping people from doing all the dumb stuff people are complaining about in this thread.

I don't recall seeing any Boss guides. It's obvious word of mouth isn't working because most times you have the blind leading the blind.

[Macman]

Etiquette? Basic etiquette is if your damage is crap, don't go drawing aggro and making everyone have to chase you around to save your ass.

[Chdata]

Has anybody tried to make a etiquette guide for doing TDs? If there isn't one somebody should make a TD etiquette guide. It would go a long way in stopping people from doing all the dumb stuff people are complaining about in this thread.

I don't recall seeing any Boss guides. It's obvious word of mouth isn't working because most times you have the blind leading the blind.

I think if the mods of this forum would collaborate on making a sticky while trying to stick to only objective information, the entire EN community would benefit.

At the same time, overly sensitive people will give us hell and say we're monsters for trying to promote something that'd help the ship as a whole because we're telling them to change their playstyle.

[Macman]

At the same time, overly sensitive people will give us hell and say we're monsters for trying to promote something that'd help the ship as a whole because we're telling them to change their playstyle.
Truth hurts. They aren't going to learn anything if they don't know just how wrong they're doing things.

[Chdata]

I really, really hope that it will at least be doable to hybrid knuckles and boots. It makes me want to make a Hong Meiling.

[Achelousaurus]

Fighting elder in a mechsuit...

Then everyone forgets about the 30 Goldys that spawn with him and all the towers die, game over.
Yeah, most of the time bosses spawn I go for the mobs others just ignore wand who wreck the towers while everyone is busy fighting the boss.

On a side note, how much HP does Dark Vibrace have? Last run I pumped 2 photon turrets into his back weakpoint and then again 2 normal turrents. Still not dead.

[Code-red]

once you get mpas with people that leave their posts undefended or they leave all the fighting to their party members. you will get sick and tired of seeing td or td 2. Cause you dread getting looped in, with people that expect all the higher level players to be able to do most of the work for them. Then you got the people that complain about you questioning their playstyle even when you didn't even mention it.

[gigawuts]

I really, really hope that it will at least be doable to hybrid knuckles and boots. It makes me want to make a Hong Meiling.

I feel like the new class should have a damage bonus to attacks that use hands and feet

That includes kicky mechgun moves, all boot moves, and knuckles. Also a couple dagger PAs and then it should be a 10x damage bonus for the sword step attack. I've killed bosses with sword's step attack, but I really don't feel like I've gotten to yell out "DEATH BY BOOT TO THE FACE" nearly enough times.