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View Full Version : JP PSO2 So...since Yu Suganuma is in charge of Ep.3 and Balancing..



Sizustar
Jun 16, 2014, 10:31 AM
What do you guys think?

From what I heard, most Japanese and Chinese(Taiwan, HK, China) player have more hope, since he actually plays the game through all the current class, and is still playing currently(Don't hink he shared his ingame ID), and he was co-producer for Psp2i.

It also shows the different style of planet, NPC, story and the new job the Bouncer

Jazneo
Jun 16, 2014, 10:38 AM
Edo period japan Mission

Vintasticvin
Jun 16, 2014, 10:56 AM
A dev that plays and works on the game as well? I'll be putting my faith on this guy ieven though I haven't had much issues with the game since unlocking and exp requirements were toned down.

Will be interesting to see hows this plays out and "Braver Planet" looks pretty fun.

gigawuts
Jun 16, 2014, 10:58 AM
If they really are redoing skilltrees, then I'm hopeful. I may not agree with all of his decisions on some finer points of class role direction, but I'll be glad that they actually have them improved. Right now a couple classes are a complete mess with either no worthwhile role on their tree, or bad roles next to amazing roles.

final_attack
Jun 16, 2014, 11:06 AM
I'm gonna have faith on this one. Would love to see how the skill tree gonna be.

Edit : Especially about Gunner's S-Roll-JA-Bonus. S-Roll -> PA -> S-Roll -> PA -> Repeat isn't that fun (Good numbers, yes, but where is combo system usage? :< )

Takatsuki
Jun 16, 2014, 11:07 AM
I just hope he gets them to put PP Charge Revival at the top of the FO tree and makes Photon Flare not suck.

Sp-24
Jun 16, 2014, 11:43 AM
It would really help if we could have anything to judge from first. The promise to rebalance everything does sound, well, promising, but that's about it. The guy's name doesn't ring any well-balanced bells to me.

Which reminds me, didn't Sega want to add beta test servers to check out the work-in-progress features? What happened to that? No interest, same as with an official BBS?

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 16, 2014, 11:56 AM
Hopeful. I've seen how this game was, and still is. It's hard to not notice the need to make a change for the better.

Gardios
Jun 16, 2014, 12:05 PM
I'm just reeeeaaaaally happy they finally have someone dedicated to balance.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 16, 2014, 12:37 PM
I'm just reeeeaaaaally happy they finally have someone dedicated to balance.

I'd like to have a job doing just that for games... /lament

arnd
Jun 16, 2014, 03:02 PM
What do you guys think?

From what I heard, most Japanese and Chinese(Taiwan, HK, China) player have more hope, since he actually plays the game through all the current class, and is still playing currently(Don't hink he shared his ingame ID), and he was co-producer for Psp2i.

It also shows the different style of planet, NPC, story and the new job the Bouncer

Smells of PSPo2:I forces, and Gidiga hitting multiple hitboxes.

Sanguine2009
Jun 16, 2014, 04:18 PM
I just hope he gets them to put PP Charge Revival at the top of the FO tree and makes Photon Flare not suck.

they need to make pp charge revival an innate part of techs, not something tied to skill trees. that skill by itself a large factor as to why techer is completely inferior to force as a caster. its not the only factor but that single change would go a long way toward making techer relevant(or at least not entirely sub only) now that its current niche is gonna be stolen

Kondibon
Jun 16, 2014, 04:29 PM
PP charge revival as an innate ability for force makes sense, but not for techs in general. The skill is meant to facilitate pure casting and decrease the downtime when you're recovering pp, for any other class that mixes Tech or PAs with normal attacks that's redundant. Techer is SUPPOSED to be inferior as a caster compared to force and make up with it through melee and support, but they screwed up by not giving wand any PAs of it's own, so it lacks variety in how it could accomplish that.

Miyuki_Kamiko
Jun 16, 2014, 04:50 PM
i see the guy will make some skills relevant and maybe adjust the skill trees to being alittle better but honestly not much is really going to change the entire hunter class needs a full overhaul of pas as in new useful ones as is hunter feels useless with all 3 weapons

but to change the game so its truly balanced i don't forsee it
fighter also needs abit of a buff aside from backhandsmash

Sanguine2009
Jun 16, 2014, 04:58 PM
which is exactly why it needs access to pp charge revival outside of subing force. hell it cant make use of half its skill tree properly because it lacks it. pp restorate? trash without pp charge revival. pp convert? without pp charge revival it loses alot of its effectiveness. light and dark masteries? without pp charge revival they are too inefficient to bother using outside of a few techs that work uncharged w/ elysion. support? sure lets hemorrhage pp using it on the class thats suppose to be about support.

either techer needs an completely new skill tree with skills it can actually use and its own PAs or this single change could be made. it by making this single change a number of class combos would greatly increase in viability.

it would still be an inferior caster too btw, just one that goes from utter shit as a caster to one that gives up raw power for versatility

Xaelouse
Jun 16, 2014, 06:44 PM
I'll give this man a medal if he figures out the fury stance vs. survival skill situation, actually make traps and launcher bullets more attractive, and to an extreme completely gut s-roll JA then make all the GU PAs have stronger scaling instead.

Aine
Jun 16, 2014, 07:10 PM
if they replaced kimura with a monkey it would be an improvement

gigawuts
Jun 16, 2014, 07:14 PM
if they replaced kimura with a monkey it would be an improvement

Jesus, they could just do a broken clock and simply being right twice a day would be an improvement.

EvilMag
Jun 16, 2014, 07:39 PM
So I researched this guy and all I can say is...I'm not surprised. He was mainly involved with the better versions of PS games. (AOTI and the PSP games)

Sanguine2009
Jun 16, 2014, 07:58 PM
wait he worked on the psp games? there is hope!

XrosBlader821
Jun 16, 2014, 09:05 PM
Dunno this guy but according to you guys he seem to have a brain so...
What I hope to see:
New PA's
Dex adjustments
Crit adjustments
Redesigned Skill Trees
No f*cking stances that have CD and a duration.
Gear Skills & Just Guard/Counter -> Weapon passives.

What we probably get:
New PA's
New Skill tree Skills

I really hope they gonna redesign Fighter completely. Atm. it feels like you are playing Joey Wheelers gambling deck with this class. And on the rangers skill tree they need to redesign the whole right + trap part or simply re position some skills and not make traps items rather than cooldown abilities. and also make some skills less expensive I mean 10 levels for some skills are really too much. Br needs more Hybrid momentum and Mag abilities for all classes wouldn't be bad. But most of mentioned changes require creativity soo... yeah....

Renvalt
Jun 16, 2014, 09:19 PM
So I researched this guy and all I can say is...I'm not surprised. He was mainly involved with the better versions of PS games. (AOTI and the PSP games)

This probably explains the whole Japanese theme of Harukotan - if they're harkening back to PSP games, this is one hell of a way to do it.

Might also give us a couple hints as to what Vopar 3 could be. And it explains why Bouncer has the stuff it does.

D-Inferno
Jun 16, 2014, 09:34 PM
I hope they give melee weapons and mechguns Ranger/Tech weapon palettes, with the option to put Guard/FI action/S-Roll to the left stick button (with S-Roll and Dive Roll actions being interchangable).

Macman
Jun 16, 2014, 09:45 PM
wait he worked on the psp games? there is hope!
Wasn't PSP "Go Vanguard or go home" or something along those lines?

EvilMag
Jun 16, 2014, 09:52 PM
Wasn't PSP "Go Vanguard or go home" or something along those lines?

PSP2 yes but they nerfed that class in Infinity and he co-produced Infinity.

GoldenFalcon
Jun 16, 2014, 10:06 PM
I'm just glad that the twin blades this time around are basically the PSP2 PA proliferating the entire weapon class

Z-0
Jun 16, 2014, 10:16 PM
Wasn't it still pretty much about Braver anyway in Infinity, other things were just more viable? (especially Force, which was probably one of the most OP with Braver)

oratank
Jun 16, 2014, 10:57 PM
psp2i hmm. i think i smell something battle and mode

Zyrusticae
Jun 16, 2014, 11:59 PM
Techer is SUPPOSED to be inferior as a caster compared to force[...]
I would argue that this is a TERRIBLE premise and should be abolished right off the bat.

When you've already split the six elements between the two classes, you by default CANNOT have one caster class inferior to the other in pure casting or else you literally gimp half of the techniques in the whole bloody game. It's terribly counter-productive.

If anything, splitting them in terms of efficiency vs. power (with, say, techer having more PP efficiency and force having more raw attack power) would actually be reasonable if you could balance it out properly, but simply making one straight-up superior to the other is just going to lead to more problems down the road.

Kondibon
Jun 17, 2014, 12:29 AM
I would argue that this is a TERRIBLE premise and should be abolished right off the bat.

When you've already split the six elements between the two classes, you by default CANNOT have one caster class inferior to the other in pure casting or else you literally gimp half of the techniques in the whole bloody game. It's terribly counter-productive.

If anything, splitting them in terms of efficiency vs. power (with, say, techer having more PP efficiency and force having more raw attack power) would actually be reasonable if you could balance it out properly, but simply making one straight-up superior to the other is just going to lead to more problems down the road.I meant on it's own, but I never said it was well designed anyway, sega just dropped the ball on Techer really hard.

Shakuri
Jun 17, 2014, 12:52 AM
Wasn't it still pretty much about Braver anyway in Infinity, other things were just more viable? (especially Force, which was probably one of the most OP with Braver)

It wasn't that Force was OP, it was the certain Techs were the most efficient means of building chain against mobs/bosses. Since any Type could use any weapon/tech, and any other Types Abilities (aside from a few Type exclusives), every class had access to these Techs and could reduce the PP cost of them.

Every Type was OP, if used right. The only things that were under powered were certain weapons classes and their lack of synergy with the chain system.

Enforcer MKV
Jun 17, 2014, 01:41 AM
Honestly; I'm going to keep being pragmatic. I wasn't hopeful after seeing all the trailers, even though it's nice to see actual content on the way instead of just collabs, and I'm not getting my hopes up now.

"Wait and see" is the order of the day. For the next two months.

qoxolg
Jun 17, 2014, 05:47 AM
PP charge revival as an innate ability for force makes sense, but not for techs in general. The skill is meant to facilitate pure casting and decrease the downtime when you're recovering pp, for any other class that mixes Tech or PAs with normal attacks that's redundant. Techer is SUPPOSED to be inferior as a caster compared to force and make up with it through melee and support, but they screwed up by not giving wand any PAs of it's own, so it lacks variety in how it could accomplish that.

Agreed. I never understand why people see Techer as a caster class. There is no point in having more than one caster class, since casting a tech from a wand or a rod is essentially the same. What's the point of having two classes that play exactly the same? It's like playing gunner using assault rifles only :-?

Kumichan
Jun 17, 2014, 06:39 AM
Because it's the only class with access to territory burst? Best zondeelbot ever.

Zorua
Jun 17, 2014, 07:02 AM
Agreed. I never understand why people see Techer as a caster class.

A melee techer doesn't really have much to work with. Pretty much just spamming zondeel while swinging a big stick that makes pretty explosions. Meanwhile it gets passives for the 3 elements that Force forgot about, 5 skills related to PP management (though I would only recommend touching 2 of them), and element weak hit (Yes, I know this can apply to melee too, but carrying 6 different wands seems kind of crazy when you have technics at your disposal.) Hell, even Rare Mastery Techer buffs your T-Atk instead of S-Atk.


There is no point in having more than one caster class, since casting a tech from a wand or a rod is essentially the same. What's the point of having two classes that play exactly the same? It's like playing gunner using assault rifles only :-?

That's like saying we don't need more than one melee class or more than one ranged class.

Force and Techer don't play exactly the same. They might both use technics, but Force focuses on raw power and feeding SEGA more money by having players buy extra skill trees, while Techer, can act as a jack of all trades thanks to element weak hit, which is pretty much a free mastery for each element, given that you have a type advantage. Techer also focuses on more on managing PP and maintaining buffs. Slap a braver subclass on, and you have a caster that can keep a buff up longer than 5 seconds, gets PP back 1.4 times as quickly, can spam the hell out of stuff while PP Convert is up, and gets rewarded for thinking about type advantages and using Weak Stance, while not getting gimped if the player doesn't want to worry about that, thanks to Average Stance.

I know that Techer was intended to be a magical-melee class, but I honestly prefer it the way it is. Besides SEGA knows they fucked up, so instead of making the next hybrid a R/T-Atk class, they made another S/T-Atk class that will be coming out in August.

D-Inferno
Jun 17, 2014, 07:07 AM
Part of me hopes that Stances are removed entirely, and that different skills are just added in their place, along with possibly lower enemy HP if everyone feels enemies would take too long to die (or maybe just boost exp/drop rates, "tougher" enemies may make the game more interesting). Fury Stance is just an icon you press at the start and every 10 minutes; Brave/Wise make FI unplayable in many cases, and Average/Weak's damage bonuses are too spread out in skill points (33 SP needed to max each one despite being only x1.331 and x1.573).

DoubleZero
Jun 17, 2014, 11:50 AM
I'm really happy about seeing that there's going to be some serious skill-tree renovation by the guy that fixed AoTI and PSP2i. I heard there's going to be a movement speed buff as well, which will go a long way for TD runs.

Do mobs' HP scale with greater number of players? It seems like that would solve the 'durability' problem with 12-man groups tearing through spawns like paper, and give the Defensive/aggro-management side of HU some much-needed attention.

I will second the notion that stances are unpalatable given the fast-paced nature of the game. Changing stances between Wise and Brave is ludicrous given how often you're fighting either side of any monster, and given that the stances have cooldowns on top of that makes them even less effective. Adding insult to injury is that the FI tree requires you to take them AND sink 5 SP EACH into them in order to advance down the tree. Rubbing salt in the wound is that there really isn't much else past that point other than ineffective static stat buffs, crit chance increases and situational bonuses.

Defensively, Absorption is a flawed mechanic given how much damage monsters do, and Massive Hunter is incredibly situational and functionally useless. 10 SP for 25 seconds of 75% resistance pales in comparison to Braver spending 5 SP for 20 seconds of complete invulnerability. Change every instance of S-Def Up (since we all know that flat value bonuses are awful in the late game) to passive, percent-reduction bonuses. A few passive abilities that shave off 20% damage each ensures survivability a lot better than +50 or +100 S-Def.

I'm also on the side that wants to do away with Force/Techer elemental trees and use skills to spec each class to be Ranged Tech vs. Melee Tech, or damage vs. MEANINGFUL support/survivability; Imagine if TE could slow or weaken enemies in addition to Shifta/Deband? Average out the damage between charged and uncharged damage and remove charging from the game entirely, as well as make support techs a one-shot, non-ticking buff. Combat is too 'on-the-go' to reliably support with a ticking system in place.

Overall, I would like the soon-to-be eight classes available from the start. It's not completely necessary, but it would be nice. While I'm asking for too much, I want a Phantasy Star Classic scratch, with costumes and weapon camos from PS1-4.

And my Opa Opa MAG.

Shiyo
Jun 17, 2014, 12:08 PM
What do you guys think?

From what I heard, most Japanese and Chinese(Taiwan, HK, China) player have more hope, since he actually plays the game through all the current class, and is still playing currently(Don't hink he shared his ingame ID), and he was co-producer for Psp2i.

It also shows the different style of planet, NPC, story and the new job the Bouncer

Whoa, a dev that actually plays their own game?

That's not against the law?

they need to make pp charge revival an innate part of techs, not something tied to skill trees. that skill by itself a large factor as to why techer is completely inferior to force as a caster. its not the only factor but that single change would go a long way toward making techer relevant(or at least not entirely sub only) now that its current niche is gonna be stolen


There's a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of things that need to be default and not in skill tree's. Just guard(like braver), step attack, just reversal, all gears, stances, % dmg modifiers, etc.

Skill tree's shouldn't be "How many % modifiers to damage can I get with 80 points?"

Gamemako
Jun 17, 2014, 12:59 PM
That's like saying we don't need more than one melee class or more than one ranged class.

This isn't really a fair analogy. Techer is basically a skill tree and a new skin for rods. There are no new techs for them, they use 2/3 of the same weapons, and the third weapons are terribly similar. They are redundant because they lack uniqueness, like this statement. By comparison, the most meager transition beyond that is Gunner, which has 1 new weapon featured in its design with a complete PA set and a vastly different playstyle than RA.

Thing is, unless you write a set of unique techs for each caster, this is a largely unavoidable problem. You're wholly reliant on the skill tree in the case of Techer because the wand doesn't carve a new path. You have all the techs of Force outright, so you can only avoid outdoing Force by providing a tool that just isn't sufficient on its own to change the game. Making them reliant on weaknesses (which is too gimpy already) doesn't make them play differently, it just makes them gimpy versions of a class that can fight Darkers effectively without losing ilmegid. Bouncer aims to avoid the issue by throwing unique abilities (PAs) at the player.

Depending on how Bouncer plays out, they could still revamp Techer to be a worthwhile class. They just have to bite the bullet and shove wand casting to the subpalette with a unique set of tech-PAs.


Part of me hopes that Stances are removed entirely, and that different skills are just added in their place, along with possibly lower enemy HP if everyone feels enemies would take too long to die (or maybe just boost exp/drop rates, "tougher" enemies may make the game more interesting). Fury Stance is just an icon you press at the start and every 10 minutes; Brave/Wise make FI unplayable in many cases, and Average/Weak's damage bonuses are too spread out in skill points (33 SP needed to max each one despite being only x1.331 and x1.573).

The problem with stances is threefold:

1) There are too many of them
2) They're too powerful
3) They stack with each other

Generic sub-HU spec gives you Fury Stance and JA boosts that total up to about +98% striking and +74% ranged in addition to all the wonders of Automate Halfline. Any non-FO who doesn't sub HU has to make up for a loss of 43-50% of their damage output. Then you can mix stances: you can add an additional +44-69% multiplier with Brave and Wise Stances for a total of +151-235%, or another +35-60% with average/weak stances (fully specced, which is not always usable) for a total of +135-218% passive damage boost. Then compare to a fully-specced active skill like Photon Flare, which gives you a boost of +400 T-ATK out of 2000+, or circa +20% for 1/4 of your time with three times the drawback of of Fury Stance. Now, can somebody tell me what's wrong with this picture?

I'm not saying that your active skills all need buffs, though many do. The thing about stances is that they're too big, lack drawbacks, and stack too much. When you take Guard Stance over Fury Stance, you should be losing 20% of your damage output, not 55%, and none of these abilities should be boosting damage by 30% passively.

Re: Brave/Wise and Average/Weak stances, they just desperately need a quick-swap active ability that flips between stances immediately. Can even have it keep you midair. The time cost to swap (animation length of an attack or two) should be enough of a cost to keep the drawbacks relevant, though you could also argue for a short cooldown on the swap (10-30s). Also, stances shouldn't expire automatically at any point. That has always irked me.

//EDIT: Man, I wrote that all kinds of wrong.

Eveningxtar
Jun 17, 2014, 10:56 PM
Although stance are powerful on its own, total removal of it will hit other classes but the one that is gonna be hit the most will be Hu since even with stances atm, the might be one of the weakest class along with the fact the best sub for them is fighter which brings them down another notch with the situational stances along side their slow hitting weapons and PAs that doesnt really do much damage incomparison to the other classes

Miyuki_Kamiko
Jun 18, 2014, 02:52 AM
most people refuse to listen when it comes to fury stance theres people who absolutely hate it and people who absolutely love it

but heres a fact without Fury stance Hunter would be pretty much useless when using hunter weapons
you take out fury stance you hurt Fighter hunter and braver gets hurt abit
while gunner can do damage just fine with a Ranger sub it doesn't need fury stance but it's in the game and they can use it so i won't argue with peoples preferences

now removal of stances all together as is right now would be a bad thing but what they could do is make stances specific to the classes they wanted them to work together with as in fury stance would only work for HU or Fi average stance would only work for BR bouncer

this would get alot of Br Hu mad and alot of Gu Hu mad but it would eliminate the arguments about hunter sub over powering GU and BR

Agitated_AT
Jun 18, 2014, 02:52 AM
Where is the source of this news?

Kondibon
Jun 18, 2014, 02:59 AM
most people refuse to listen when it comes to fury stance theres people who absolutely hate it and people who absolutely love it

but heres a fact without Fury stance Hunter would be pretty much useless when using hunter weapons
you take out fury stance you hurt Fighter hunter and braver gets hurt abit
while gunner can do damage just fine with a Ranger sub it doesn't need fury stance but it's in the game and they can use it so i won't argue with peoples preferences

now removal of stances all together as is right now would be a bad thing but what they could do is make stances specific to the classes they wanted them to work together with as in fury stance would only work for HU or Fi average stance would only work for BR bouncer

this would get alot of Br Hu mad and alot of Gu Hu mad but it would eliminate the arguments about hunter sub over powering GU and BRI'm against the idea of completely removing stances as well but you should know that most people who want thigns like this nerfed also want the classes like hunter and fighter buffed so they don't RELY on the stances. A lot of the problems with Hunter don't even have to do with damage, they have to do with how slow the class is.

Xaelouse
Jun 18, 2014, 03:41 AM
Hunter weapons should be as slow as they are (with exception of slide shaker and other cyclone, those two PAs need a speed increase badly). It's just a lot of PAs need more weight behind these slow attacks.
The real problem with Hunter is how it can't get much access to its passive defensive skills. Glass cannon and hunter are not meant to be with how some of those PAs are designed, and if it tried to ever get out of being a glass cannon you start losing damage. In reality, all the block and dodge cancelling (if the PA even allows it, mind you) you'll have to do to avoid getting one/two-shot is losing damage as well. You can hardly ever take advantage of the hyper armor hunter weapons generally gives you without getting put into near critical or outright dying. Excessive dodging belongs to fighter and soon bouncer, not hunter. Hunter is supposed to be trading blows whenever they see it's fit to do so, which should be more cases than right now.

Kondibon
Jun 18, 2014, 04:05 AM
Hunter weapons should be as slow as they are (with exception of slide shaker and other cyclone, those two PAs need a speed increase badly). It's just a lot of PAs need more weight behind these slow attacks.
The real problem with Hunter is how it can't get much access to its passive defensive skills. Glass cannon and hunter are not meant to be with how some of those PAs are designed, and if it tried to ever get out of being a glass cannon you start losing damage. In reality, all the block and dodge cancelling (if the PA even allows it, mind you) you'll have to do to avoid getting one/two-shot is losing damage as well. You can hardly ever take advantage of the hyper armor hunter weapons generally gives you without getting put into near critical or outright dying. Excessive dodging belongs to fighter and soon bouncer, not hunter. Hunter is supposed to be trading blows whenever they see it's fit to do so, which should be more cases than right now.The problem isn't just that they're slow, but that by the time they get to anything it either moves or gets killed by another player. Their actual damage is actually really good if you can maintain it. And then there's the fact that "slow" doesn't just mean animations. Look at sword, it's terrible without gear, the new skill helps a bit but you still have to hit stuff which can be impossible with only one good approach... that only has a good range when you already have gear built up. they have to spend too much time warming up at the start of a fight and if some thing happens (like the boss or whatever gets into a position you can hit it) then you start losing gear on sword, which as far as I can tell is meant to be hunter's bossing weapon. I don't dissagree with what you're saying, but that's a whole seperate problem.

Miyuki_Kamiko
Jun 18, 2014, 04:19 AM
hunter suffers from all 3 weapons
wired lance tries to control enemies by weak grabs that don't work on most bosses
partisan im not sure on never used it cause it doesn't interest me but my guess is low damage output
sword suffers from leaving itself open with it's useful PAs as in your generally going to die using them
it's speed isn't the issue it's the problem that the weapons can't do what they were designed to do

overend they A need to either make the first 2 non cancelable hits useful or they need to remove those first 2 hits and just have it being a charged super slash that does those last 3 hits which would be more effective
cause overend is a ripoff of FF8 blasting zone from squall anyways

Eveningxtar
Jun 18, 2014, 05:09 AM
Overall, Overend aint really a bad PA but it is behind its time and sword don't really get any upgrade to their PA, a fix for overend might be to just improve its damage output once again since the last buff it got was negligible. As for sword itself, maybe implementing a knockdown effect for mob on the 3rd swing and chances to cause disrupt/stun to boss might help improve its usefulness while keeping its speed.

Partisan on the other hand would need a rework on all of its PA and to boost the speed and number of hits it can accomplish since out of all the HU weapons, it is the one with the least offense and doesn't help that it can't really be use for guarding. Making partisan faster, hitting harder and maybe increase the range of its attack so it can hit more mobs at once might give it a feel of risk vs reward.

As for Wired Lance, it might need a pa that can be use to handle bosses and also give it better crowd control ability so it wont be left out.

Sizustar
Jun 18, 2014, 06:59 AM
Where is the source of this news?


What are you asking???

Agitated_AT
Jun 18, 2014, 08:03 AM
What are you asking???

Where can I read this Yu Suganuma is in charge of ep3 and balancing? There's no link in the OP.

Sizustar
Jun 18, 2014, 08:08 AM
Where can I read this Yu Suganuma is in charge of ep3 and balancing? There's no link in the OP.

Watch the Live broadcast?
It was announced there.

XrosBlader821
Jun 18, 2014, 09:09 AM
Stances are really just an excuse of a skill. The activation animations don't even look different.
If i had to keep stances I would fuse them into one skill. This way you don't have to decide with hunter if you wanna spend SP on damage or Defense since you skill both.

But I would rather delete Stances completely and switch them for real Skills. Somehow non melee Classes seem to work just fine without having a Stance in their skill tree.

Shiyo
Jun 18, 2014, 10:41 AM
I think hunter PA's are just clunky and outdated. You can't cancel a fully charged nova strike mid animation, tons of PA's can't be cancelled mid animation actually, a lot are too slow and not worth their risk for the damage they do, and this just makes a lot of their PA's feel clunky and slow.

If you compare their PA's to bravers, which are much faster and can all be cancelled, you'll see how outdated their PA's are. Hunter weapons are great, they just need to be updated to 2014 with the rest of the new classes PA's. Slow, uncancellable PA's that leave you vulnerable for a very long time don't work in this game anymore.

Simply speeding up a lot of their PA's by greatly reducing their animations, but not reducing their damage, and making all of their PA's, cancellable would make hunter weapons competitive with Katana and fighter weapons.

Skyly HUmar
Jun 18, 2014, 12:31 PM
I think hunter PA's are just clunky and outdated. You can't cancel a fully charged nova strike mid animation, tons of PA's can't be cancelled mid animation actually, a lot are too slow and not worth their risk for the damage they do, and this just makes a lot of their PA's feel clunky and slow.

If you compare their PA's to bravers, which are much faster and can all be cancelled, you'll see how outdated their PA's are. Hunter weapons are great, they just need to be updated to 2014 with the rest of the new classes PA's. Slow, uncancellable PA's that leave you vulnerable for a very long time don't work in this game anymore.

Simply speeding up a lot of their PA's by greatly reducing their animations, but not reducing their damage, and making all of their PA's, cancellable would make hunter weapons competitive with Katana and fighter weapons.

But that would require sega to do work D:. Actually, wasn't the class already sped up once and it was completely unnoticeable?

gigawuts
Jun 18, 2014, 12:33 PM
Hunter's attacks were clunky when tundra wasn't even out yet. Anyone remember trying to use Other Cyclone in desert free field way back in the POBT? I hope you're on a strictly missile and stun grenade diet, because it's all you're gonna fuckin' eat.

Skyly HUmar
Jun 18, 2014, 12:36 PM
Hunter's attacks were clunky when tundra wasn't even out yet. Anyone remember trying to use Other Cyclone in desert free field way back in the POBT? I hope you're on a strictly missile and stun grenade diet, because it's all you're gonna fuckin' eat.

I was't a big fan of the wire lance back in the day lol. I think i started using it regularly around the time skyland was out.

XrosBlader821
Jun 18, 2014, 02:15 PM
so I was reading through some Bumped news:
http://puu.sh/9znm9/ffb9cd2222.png
I think that speaks for itself.

GoldenFalcon
Jun 18, 2014, 02:17 PM
http://puu.sh/9znm9/ffb9cd2222.png

Main class, btw
Techer's a common subclass :3

Macman
Jun 18, 2014, 02:53 PM
Main class, btw
Techer's a common subclass :3
That doesn't change anything. Hunter is the single most common subclass, but you don't see it being treated with any modicum of respect.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 18, 2014, 03:08 PM
Hunter's attacks were clunky when tundra wasn't even out yet. Anyone remember trying to use Other Cyclone in desert free field way back in the POBT? I hope you're on a strictly missile and stun grenade diet, because it's all you're gonna fuckin' eat.

Way back when I used other spin->grapple charge.

Then I learned bossing with WLs generally sucked ass.

Valimer
Jun 18, 2014, 03:57 PM
I think hunter PA's are just clunky and outdated. You can't cancel a fully charged nova strike mid animation, tons of PA's can't be cancelled mid animation actually, a lot are too slow and not worth their risk for the damage they do, and this just makes a lot of their PA's feel clunky and slow.

If you compare their PA's to bravers, which are much faster and can all be cancelled, you'll see how outdated their PA's are. Hunter weapons are great, they just need to be updated to 2014 with the rest of the new classes PA's. Slow, uncancellable PA's that leave you vulnerable for a very long time don't work in this game anymore.

Simply speeding up a lot of their PA's by greatly reducing their animations, but not reducing their damage, and making all of their PA's, cancellable would make hunter weapons competitive with Katana and fighter weapons.

They could just make Hunter PAs do a lot more damage to make up for their speed. They could add a feature to the hunter stance that makes the first swing an automatic JA (maybe for only hunter weapons? though it would be nice for the launcher.)

Gamemako
Jun 18, 2014, 05:41 PM
Although stance are powerful on its own, total removal of it will hit other classes but the one that is gonna be hit the most will be Hu since even with stances atm, the might be one of the weakest class along with the fact the best sub for them is fighter which brings them down another notch with the situational stances along side their slow hitting weapons and PAs that doesnt really do much damage incomparison to the other classes

But that's just it: you're saying that HU has Fury Stance as a crutch for its real problems, which are slow PAs and low damage. HU is hardly used generally; most players sub HU with no HU weapons on the sub at all, turning the (poorly-conceived) HU crutch into universal overpowered subclass.


I'm against the idea of completely removing stances as well but you should know that most people who want thigns like this nerfed also want the classes like hunter and fighter buffed so they don't RELY on the stances. A lot of the problems with Hunter don't even have to do with damage, they have to do with how slow the class is.

This is pretty much the issue. Wired Lances have a number of PAs which are actually completely impossible to interrupt (e.g. Other Spin) in a game meta where Dragon Ex is going to spam the hell out of you with attacks every 4 seconds. Swords are slow generally, but the charge on many skills is ABSURD.

If I had to take a stab at balancing HU, I think it would take a TON of changes. Actually, let's just make this a giant wishlist post:

1) All stances need nerfs. They're too damn big. Reduce to +ATK modified by level, and apply that standard to other in-tree passives. Fury Stance should be +level*skilllevel S-ATK/2 and +level*skilllevel/3 R-ATK. Those are present caps of +350 S-ATK and +233 R-ATK. With smaller bonuses and additive scaling, you both limit racial and mag optimization impact and keep bonuses from being the out-of-control clusterfuck they are right now. You also comparatively limit the impact on certain high-ATK options (namely sword) for use with non-boosted stances, innately improving the relative viability of guard stance.

2) Skill trees need a big rewrite. Most generally, if you have two opposed stances, they should be in the same damn tree (dammit HU). I don't know why there isn't a quick stance swap ability at the bottom of those trees, especially Brave/Wise (you shouldn't have to stop what you're doing at all, and you certainly shouldn't be triggering a stance cooldown). You should be thinking about when to use each stance, not which stance to build a character around. Braver does a better job of this. Anyway, the trees should reflect more active play instead of just a game of stacking multipliers. In fact, it's always better to have active skills be accidentally overpowered than passive ones.

3) Hunter PAs need help generally. Too many uninterruptible PAs without super armor or iframes. To fix things, perhaps some PAs should confer a short just guard status instead of super armor. For example, long-charging attacks like Rising Edge would allow you to bulldoze an attack when timed properly, with charging giving you a longer guard time. Would help both with bosses in particular. There are also just so many oversights, like being able to hit nothing with Heavenly Fall.

4) Takes too damn long to close and prepare in combat. The offense rebalance should help (by killing off the damn one-shot party that currently dominates), but HU still takes too long to get there and too long to warm up. Only Partisan gains essential gear charges without engaging in combat. HU needs more and better closing attacks, except maybe on WL. I don't think increasing the weapon speed is really a good idea as it reduces the uniqueness of HU compared to FI and to a lesser extent BR. HU weapons just need tweaks to do their business properly. If sword is to excel at bosses, it needs guard/evade cancel or PA just guard -- superarmor on slow PAs is just a good way to die faster.

I'll think more on it later, but there's certainly more than can be done.

Kondibon
Jun 18, 2014, 05:47 PM
But that's just it: you're saying that HU has Fury Stance as a crutch for its real problems, which are slow PAs and low damage. HU is hardly used generally; most players sub HU with no HU weapons on the sub at all, turning the (poorly-conceived) HU crutch into universal overpowered subclass.



This is pretty much the issue. Wired Lances have a number of PAs which are actually completely impossible to interrupt (e.g. Other Spin) in a game meta where Dragon Ex is going to spam the hell out of you with attacks every 4 seconds. Swords are slow generally, but the charge on many skills is ABSURD.

If I had to take a stab at balancing HU, I think it would take a TON of changes. Actually, let's just make this a giant wishlist post:

1) All stances need nerfs. They're too damn big. Reduce to +ATK modified by level, and apply that standard to other in-tree passives. Fury Stance should be +level*skilllevel S-ATK/2 and +level*skilllevel/3 R-ATK. Those are present caps of +350 S-ATK and +233 R-ATK. With smaller bonuses and additive scaling, you both limit racial and mag optimization impact and keep bonuses from being the out-of-control clusterfuck they are right now. You also comparatively limit the impact on certain high-ATK options (namely sword) for use with non-boosted stances, innately improving the relative viability of guard stance.

2) Skill trees need a big rewrite. Most generally, if you have two opposed stances, they should be in the same damn tree (dammit HU). I don't know why there isn't a quick stance swap ability at the bottom of those trees, especially Brave/Wise (you shouldn't have to stop what you're doing at all, and you certainly shouldn't be triggering a stance cooldown). You should be thinking about when to use each stance, not which stance to build a character around. Braver does a better job of this. Anyway, the trees should reflect more active play instead of just a game of stacking multipliers. In fact, it's always better to have active skills be accidentally overpowered than passive ones.

3) Hunter PAs need help generally. Too many uninterruptible PAs without super armor or iframes. To fix things, perhaps some PAs should confer a short just guard status instead of super armor. For example, long-charging attacks like Rising Edge would allow you to bulldoze an attack when timed properly, with charging giving you a longer guard time. Would help both with bosses in particular. There are also just so many oversights, like being able to hit nothing with Heavenly Fall.

4) Takes too damn long to close and prepare in combat. The offense rebalance should help (by killing off the damn one-shot party that currently dominates), but HU still takes too long to get there and too long to warm up. Only Partisan gains essential gear charges without engaging in combat. HU needs more and better closing attacks, except maybe on WL. I don't think increasing the weapon speed is really a good idea as it reduces the uniqueness of HU compared to FI and to a lesser extent BR. HU weapons just need tweaks to do their business properly. If sword is to excel at bosses, it needs guard/evade cancel or PA just guard -- superarmor on slow PAs is just a good way to die faster.

I'll think more on it later, but there's certainly more than can be done.I'd like to mention that the whole point of the right side of the hunter tree is meant to facilitate getting hit while having hyper armor, but you have to give up too much damage to get enough out of it for it to be worth it.

When I said slow, I meant your number 4. It just takes them too long to get started. Under the assumption that the right side of the tree was accessable without nerfing your damage into oblivion then hunter would be one of the best classes to use for hitting stuff while it's hitting you.

Right now though it's gunner with guild milla...

GoldenFalcon
Jun 18, 2014, 05:49 PM
But Gu/Hu with Iron Will O:

I guess it's kinda a problem when Iron Will is so accessible without going through the useless prereqs in the "guard stance" branch

XrosBlader821
Jun 18, 2014, 07:10 PM
Under the assumption that the right side of the tree was accessable without nerfing your damage into oblivion then hunter would be one of the best classes to use for hitting stuff while it's hitting you.

Something like this?
[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/9zLWr/0836b2fd08.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Kondibon
Jun 18, 2014, 07:18 PM
Something like this?
[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/9zLWr/0836b2fd08.png[/SPOILER-BOX]
Well one of the big problems with hunter's (and most of the other class') skill tree is all the prereques that are unrelated to what you're going for. I'd rather see seperate branches for each thing. So there's be a flash guard tree with just flash guard related skills (and maybe massive hunter), a fury tree with just fury skills, like what we have now, but with the non-fury related damage bonuses (JA adv) being on their own. Automate, and Iron will need to be less point intensive to take together, and stuff like that.

I could go on more about it, but it's making me depressed cause it'll probably never happen.

I do like your idea of merging the stance skills though, maybe they could ALL be merged, for all the classes as well. Each class has one skill for both stances and under that skill could be where it forks into specializing in one. Or all the stance ups could be merged as well.

Renvalt
Jun 18, 2014, 07:36 PM
Well one of the big problems with hunter's (and most of the other class') skill tree is all the prereques that are unrelated to what you're going for. I'd rather see seperate branches for each thing. So there's be a flash guard tree with just flash guard related skills (and maybe massive hunter), a fury tree with just fury skills, like what we have now, but with the non-fury related damage bonuses (JA adv) being on their own. Automate, and Iron will need to be less point intensive to take together, and stuff like that.

I could go on more about it, but it's making me depressed cause it'll probably never happen.

I do like your idea of merging the stance skills though, maybe they could ALL be merged, for all the classes as well. Each class has one skill for both stances and under that skill could be where it forks into specializing in one. Or all the stance ups could be merged as well.

I personally think the gear skills should be moved outside of their respective spots. This would allow people to get whatever the hell they want right off the fucking bat.

Also, Fury Gear Boost needs to be moved into a spot where Fury Gear is a prereq (logically it makes sense, after all - it's useless if you aren't using Fury Stance).

I also feel that putting both stances up higher in the tree would be a better idea, and then branching off the necessary skills from those points onward.

The other issue is that a Hunter going full tank WANTS that HP, so it makes no sense to have the HP Up skills spaced out so unevenly. That, and I think going from one tier of stat increase to another requires too few points. The cost should be higher.

If you're focusing on damage, odds are you're not going to give a shit about HP anyways, since you'd be so eager to not get hit in the first place (and that's generally how most people here tend to encourage others to play).

I also feel like Fury Critical should be scrapped, and reinserted into Fury Stance Up at a slightly nerfed rate to allow for other skills in the near future. Like, oh, I dunno, maybe a skill that recovers X percent of HP every time you kill something with a Just Attack or something?

Again, I'm just kinda brainlessly throwing out ideas. Take em and improve on em or somethin'.

Macman
Jun 18, 2014, 07:47 PM
What hunter tree should be able to do is get your standard damage skills (stick JA bonuses near the top, branch off between fury, aggro/ironwill/massivehunter, automates, and then flash guards and status prevention(all statuses merged into one).

You should be able to get your standard skills like Just Guard/Reversal, Gears, and all stance related things (I like the idea of merging the two into one skill, unlocking both at the same time) and still have enough SP left to max out at least one skill that's way on the opposite end of the tree of your choice, and one that's partially down another different branch.
This gives hunters what they need to be functional skill-wise and gives them options to some defensive skills to diversify later on.

XrosBlader821
Jun 18, 2014, 07:51 PM
I personally think the gear skills should be moved outside of their respective spots. This would allow people to get whatever the hell they want right off the fucking bat.

Also, Fury Gear Boost needs to be moved into a spot where Fury Gear is a prereq (logically it makes sense, after all - it's useless if you aren't using Fury Stance).

I also feel that putting both stances up higher in the tree would be a better idea, and then branching off the necessary skills from those points onward.

The other issue is that a Hunter going full tank WANTS that HP, so it makes no sense to have the HP Up skills spaced out so unevenly. That, and I think going from one tier of stat increase to another requires too few points. The cost should be higher.

If you're focusing on damage, odds are you're not going to give a shit about HP anyways, since you'd be so eager to not get hit in the first place (and that's generally how most people here tend to encourage others to play).

I also feel like Fury Critical should be scrapped, and reinserted into Fury Stance Up at a slightly nerfed rate to allow for other skills in the near future. Like, oh, I dunno, maybe a skill that recovers X percent of HP every time you kill something with a Just Attack or something?

Again, I'm just kinda brainlessly throwing out ideas. Take em and improve on em or somethin'.
I actaully would like to make Absoption a stance unrelated skill and position it on the left side of the skill tree.
If I had to redesign the tree I would also make Gear Skills, Just defense/Counter and Just attack/reversal Weapon passives instead of skills.
And to make the stances look like actual skills I would add a animation to whatever weapon you use them on. The attacks having the same speed just different animation.
And maybe also make a separate Tree and main class only (which in Sega's eye's would make sense since this would encourage to buy skill trees).
Like that for example:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/9zQ5k/ffdc3eb294.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Shiyo
Jun 18, 2014, 08:44 PM
Something like this?
[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/9zLWr/0836b2fd08.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

You didn't remove all of the fury stance traits and roll them into fury stance or put JA bonus 1+2 into a single trait so no.

That isn't what's needed, but something as simple as that could've kept the game a lot more interesting before a big sweeping revamp comes.