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Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 02:56 PM
http://pastebin.com/sjA6qRDK
Comparisons: http://pastebin.com/0Qi16QD5

It's going to be so fun playing hunter in EP3. Look at all these mega giant buffs, especially to SWORD. 20 PP PA's all over the place!

Going to be great being able to use pretty much any PA you want with any wep in any situation that it fits for. EP3 will finally give us actual choices and let us play how we want. will be amazing.

Sword master race.

Lostbob117
Aug 23, 2014, 03:01 PM
There is also a new field called "unknown"

Drifting Fable
Aug 23, 2014, 03:01 PM
My Daisy Chain is ready . . . but that Backhand Smash nerf hurts my soul unless its missing an extra 1000

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:10 PM
Are people gonna stop complaining about losing 50-70% of their skill tree damage now?

Xaelouse
Aug 23, 2014, 03:11 PM
Just remember they're making all the PAs show their real values this time. So something like SatCan will still actually be a nerf, but we need to know current SatCan's real value to know how much it did get nerfed.
Anyway, I hope this means I can use my rainbow wired lances more than just for kaiser rise again

Rakurai
Aug 23, 2014, 03:15 PM
Either these numbers aren't final, or they changed their minds about how many techs were getting nerfed, because I noticed that Il Foie and Na Megid got a huge nerf despite them claiming that they were only nerfing Il Barta, Il Megid, and Il Grants.

I also kind of doubt that people are going to stop the Il Megid spamming when it still has a high total damage modifier then virtually every AoE tech.

gigawuts
Aug 23, 2014, 03:18 PM
Are people gonna stop complaining about losing 50-70% of their skill tree damage now?

No, because most of the people complaining can't understand grade school math and/or didn't play hunter in the first place and used its huge damage skills as a crutch to support their inability to feel adequate without it.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:19 PM
Either these numbers aren't final, or they changed their minds about how many techs were getting nerfed, because I noticed that Il Foie and Na Megid got a huge nerf despite them claiming that they were only nerfing Il Barta, Il Megid, and Il Grants.
Read what Xaelouse said.

Just remember they're making all the PAs show their real values this time.

Gardios
Aug 23, 2014, 03:21 PM
Ragrants Lv 16: 1168

I'm salivating.


Are people gonna stop complaining about losing 50-70% of their skill tree damage now?

I actually gain 5%. <3'

Rakurai
Aug 23, 2014, 03:25 PM
Read what Xaelouse said.

I was under the impression that only applied to multi-hitting techs and PAs.

In any case, I'm glad that Na Zan is now rightfully is the strongest Wind tech.

horseship
Aug 23, 2014, 03:25 PM
Is there a list of all of the true values anywhere? Also, LauncherPA11? Is this an unreleased PA?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:26 PM
These tech buffs.
http://i.imgur.com/V2ekhLb.gif

pkemr4
Aug 23, 2014, 03:27 PM
that Na-megid nerf :(

Poyonche
Aug 23, 2014, 03:28 PM
W-Wait what ? Jetboots PA04 ?

I though we were getting 3 Jetboots PA :o
+Omg dat Nazonde buff ! :o

Sanguine2009
Aug 23, 2014, 03:29 PM
JetBootsPA04
Type: 0 Weapon: 16 Requires: T-ATK
Element: None Status: None Unknown:0
Level Pow% Dex% Time? PP SE % SE Lv Req
1 364 100 0 35 0 1 80
2 367 100 0 35 0 1 90
3 370 100 0 35 0 1 120
4 373 100 0 35 0 1 160
5 376 100 0 35 0 1 200
6 379 100 0 35 0 1 235
7 382 100 0 35 0 1 270
8 385 100 0 35 0 1 290
9 388 100 0 35 0 1 320
10 391 100 0 35 0 1 350
11 513 100 0 35 0 1 360
12 517 100 0 35 0 1 370
13 521 100 0 35 0 1 380
14 525 100 0 35 0 1 390
15 529 100 0 35 0 1 400
16 3413 100 0 35 0 1 410

and you were doing so well sega?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:29 PM
Also, LauncherPA11? Is this an unreleased PA?Yeah, it looks like a place holder since it has the exact same stats as Cosmo Breaker


that Na-megid nerf :(


I was under the impression that only applied to multi-hitting techs and PAs.

In any case, I'm glad that Na Zan is now rightfully is the strongest Wind tech.

It's almost exactly half. I'm pretty sure it's just a notation change.

The Walrus
Aug 23, 2014, 03:29 PM
Holy shit did they buff deadly archer!?

Bellion
Aug 23, 2014, 03:29 PM
Satellite Cannon level 16 522 x Charge level 2
Charge level 2 = 200% x 5
5220 true value

New list has it at 4436 at level 16.
Basically, level 16 SC of right now would be slightly weaker than level 1 SC.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:33 PM
JetBootsPA04
Type: 0 Weapon: 16 Requires: T-ATK
Element: None Status: None Unknown:0
Level Pow% Dex% Time? PP SE % SE Lv Req
1 364 100 0 35 0 1 80
2 367 100 0 35 0 1 90
3 370 100 0 35 0 1 120
4 373 100 0 35 0 1 160
5 376 100 0 35 0 1 200
6 379 100 0 35 0 1 235
7 382 100 0 35 0 1 270
8 385 100 0 35 0 1 290
9 388 100 0 35 0 1 320
10 391 100 0 35 0 1 350
11 513 100 0 35 0 1 360
12 517 100 0 35 0 1 370
13 521 100 0 35 0 1 380
14 525 100 0 35 0 1 390
15 529 100 0 35 0 1 400
16 3413 100 0 35 0 1 410

and you were doing so well sega?lolwot? I think that might be an error. Everything about bouncer seems like they made it before the balance changes so I'm pretty sure it'll get ironed out.

EDIT: I just noticed, that's PA4. We're only getting the first 3. That last one isn't even coming out with bouncer as far as I know. It's probably placeholder like the launcher one.


Holy shit did they buff deadly archer!?

It's not like it was OP or anything, the other double saber PAs just sucked compared to it.

TehblackUchiha
Aug 23, 2014, 03:39 PM
I hope hybrids are effective, I want to be a Fi/Te and still be able to kill bosses fast with fighter weapons and mob with a wand.

Metalsnake27
Aug 23, 2014, 03:41 PM
Wow.... if these are the official values, this is awesome :D

All the changes to Hunter are making me want to try Hunter again lol

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 03:46 PM
I hope hybrids are effective, I want to be a Fi/Te and still be able to kill bosses fast with fighter weapons and mob with a wand.

Well wands didn't have PAs in the first place so I doubt that part'll change much. I do think limit break might end up being useful to you though since the halfline/deadline skills increase t-atk too (thus increasing your wand explosion damage slightly).

I also want hybrids to work out though. I need my RA/TE fix.

Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 03:53 PM
EDIT: I just noticed, that's PA4. We're only getting the first 3. That last one isn't even coming out with bouncer as far as I know.

Source?

Comparisons: http://pastebin.com/0Qi16QD5
Bandersnatch
492->750
PP 25->15
OH MY GOD, 15 PP. PP is already super fun, this will be amazing.

GALEFORCE
Aug 23, 2014, 04:00 PM
I hope they did more than tweak numbers. Like, Slash Rave could use the invincibility that facet folia has. I can also think of a ton of old PAs that could use AoE increases.

I'll withhold my opinion on the damage numbers for now. Are they supposed to signify the total potential damage output to a single target with hit count taken into account?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 04:02 PM
Source?

What do you mean source? I said "as far as I know"? It's conjecture based on the fact that we've only EVER seen 3 PAs for boots, and the fact that all the other boot and dual blade PAs already fit in the new balance changes.

Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 04:06 PM
I hope they did more than tweak numbers. Like, Slash Rave could use the invincibility that facet folia has. I can also think of a ton of old PAs that could use AoE increases.

I'll withhold my opinion on the damage numbers for now. Are they supposed to signify the total potential damage output to a single target with hit count taken into account?

They stated on the live stream there was speed and AOE increases on the vast majority of the PA's, and pretty much every single one got sped up.

SakoHaruo
Aug 23, 2014, 04:17 PM
Fighter PAs...
[spoiler-box]HOLYSHIT! http://i.imgur.com/8pXFdOn.gif[/spoiler-box]



Also, wtf @ karan lol

Lambadaa
Aug 23, 2014, 04:19 PM
Hien-tsubaki is finally getting some love.

And OH.MY.GOD dat Hatou buff

Gardios
Aug 23, 2014, 04:20 PM
Aaah, I didn't even notice Na Grants is down to 20 PP. It's truly a delight to like light.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 04:23 PM
Also, wtf @ karan lolI think it's showing the charged damage now instead of uncharged.

I mean... Otherwise it's gonna be stronger than Sakura End used to be... >_>

Qualia
Aug 23, 2014, 04:32 PM
Messiah Time tho. Is this rl?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 04:34 PM
Messiah Time tho. Is this rl?I'm almost certain that it's not actually getting it's damage doubled and that's just them changing the number display. How much is just changing the numbers and how much is the buff I dunno though. EDIT: according to the JP wiki the actual multiplier is 1959 at level 16, which would make this a nerf. It probably just comes down to the exact number of hits being hard to keep consistant with the second part, so it's probably about the same.

Also according to a friend of mine Ilfoie and Namegid were always hitting for half of what they said.

MOAR EDIT: JP Wiki says that too. I don't think Namegid is getting nerfed.

Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 04:48 PM
So all the useless TMG PA's are still useless and the ones that were already good got buffed even more.

S roll infinite fire, s roll elder rebellion and s roll messiah time still the only way to play GU.

Great job! Fuck gunner, I was hoping it'd be fun too.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 04:51 PM
So all the useless TMG PA's are still useless and the ones that were already good got buffed even more.

S roll infinite fire, s roll elder rebellion and s roll messiah time still the only way to play GU.

Great job!Those other PAs are actually really good. With S-roll being nerfed I can see myself actually seriously using them in combos.

Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 04:53 PM
Those other PAs are actually really good. With S-roll being nerfed I can see myself actually seriously using them in combos.

I bet all my meseta you're wrong.

It still adds +60% damage, the nerf is pointless.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 05:01 PM
I bet all my meseta you're wrong.

It still adds +60% damage, the nerf is pointless.It's 50% actually. And I'm speaking from experience. I use Satelite Aim, Shift Period, and Messiah Time without S-rolling all the time.

The problem with S-roll was never it's existence, but the fact that S-rolling was faster than using the PAs that work well with it twice. I'm pretty sure you can get in one and a half elder rebellions at about the same speed you can s-roll elder rebellion, and the long animation of IF was a liability anyway. I do still think it should be nerfed a bit more though (I'd prefer 25 or 30%).

Shiyo
Aug 23, 2014, 05:13 PM
Live stream said 200% - > 160%.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 05:19 PM
Live stream said 200% - > 160%.Well the prepatch says 150%. Either they decided to lower it further due to feedback or they're going to change it to 160% later. My point still stands, I was just nitpicking about that anyway.

I'm not saying completely ignoring it is gonna be a good idea, just that using PAs without it is an option if it's faster.

Maenara
Aug 23, 2014, 05:28 PM
Nazonde
224->3525

Holy mother of god.

Sanguine2009
Aug 23, 2014, 05:37 PM
Nazonde
224->3525

Holy mother of god.

keep in mind this new power notation works differently than the old one, it probably got a good sized buff but its also probably much, much smaller than you think it is.

Maenara
Aug 23, 2014, 05:40 PM
Also:
Gimegid poison chance: 22% -> 40%

elryan
Aug 23, 2014, 05:53 PM
Elder Rebellion
603->973
PP 40->32

Dead Approach
186->318
PP 25->20

Messiah Time
653->1214

I just came.

EDIT 2: Quick calculation of GU/HU new relative power level compared to old one, using Elder Rebellion as main DPS:

Hunter (Ranged) Fury Stance multiplier
Old : 1.932612
New : 1.61417025

Gunner multiplier (point blank, full HP, excluding TMG gear)
Old : 3.174
New : 2.5392

Total multiplier from skill trees:
Old : 6.134110488
New : 4.0987010988 (66.82% of former damage)

Elder Rebellion :
Old : 6.03
New : 9.73

Rough total multiplier :
Old : 36.98868624264
New : 39.880361691324 (7.8% more ER damage than before, not to mention that you can perform ER one after another 4x with 130 PP now, up from 3x, which means 33% less downtime between PA!)

Add in Chain Trigger / Chain Finish (maxed Chain Finish will deal almost 3x damage) usable on-the-fly during combat. (Fist bump animation to be removed)

Gunner is now more solid than before. Kudos to SEGA!

Ein Raketen
568->1207
PP 30->20

Serpent Air
500->1198
PP 30->20

Slash Rave
993->2842

Additional Bullet
418->705

Kreisenschlag
681->2384
PP 32->28

Regenschlag
660->1390

EDIT: Well then. Looks like I'll level my Fighter or Ranger using Gunslash.

Stickboy
Aug 23, 2014, 06:24 PM
shit, that is some huge buff

GALEFORCE
Aug 23, 2014, 06:59 PM
Yeah, I doubt messiah got buffed. They would have to be out of their minds. I could see Elder getting the buff to balance out the nerfs. If that is a buff, I don't particularly agree with the PP cost reduction, but it's not like it makes a big diff anyway.

I'm disappointed to see bullet squall still doesn't beat messiah. We'll have to see how it works in practice.

Skyly
Aug 23, 2014, 07:05 PM
il-megid got buffed? wut?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:15 PM
il-megid got buffed? wut?I swear no one is reading the thread.

They're changing the notations on the numbers shown to more accurately show the damage you're likely to get. The numbers are completely arbitrary. They probably just have Ilmegid showing the damage for more than one hit or something.

horseship
Aug 23, 2014, 07:16 PM
il-megid got buffed? wut?

No, the notation used is total damage I believe which is not always the same as what's shown in game. Ilmegid is definitely nerfed, although by how much we don't know yet.

Edit: Dang Kondibon beat me to it.

Sanguine2009
Aug 23, 2014, 07:18 PM
I swear no one is reading the thread.

They're changing the notations on the numbers shown to more accurately show the damage you're likely to get. The numbers are completely arbitrary. They probably just have Ilmegid showing the damage for more than one hit or something.

exactly this, we cant judge their new strength relative to the current levels because they use a different system to determine the power notation.

Skyly
Aug 23, 2014, 07:20 PM
I swear no one is reading the thread.

They're changing the notations on the numbers shown to more accurately show the damage you're likely to get. The numbers are completely arbitrary. They probably just have Ilmegid showing the damage for more than one hit or something.

sooo. il-megid will be doing 909 damage per hit without multipliers?

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:22 PM
sooo. il-megid will be doing 909 damage per hit without multipliers?We have no idea what the new notation is going to be. Especially since Namegid and Ilfoie have proven they can just straight up be wrong.

HIT0SHI
Aug 23, 2014, 07:22 PM
Ein Raketen
568->1207
PP 30->20

Serpent Air
500->1198
PP 30->20

Slash Rave
993->2842

Additional Bullet
418->705

Kreisenschlag
681->2384
PP 32->28

Regenschlag
660->1390

EDIT: Well then. Looks like I'll level my Fighter or Ranger using Gunslash.

Ty SEGA. Gotta try Dem gunslash PAs once it's live! Already got most of them in LV.16 too!

Rakurai
Aug 23, 2014, 07:25 PM
I really like the way they handled the the damage multipliers on the techs for the most part.

It only makes sense that the ones that need to be used at close range should be stronger then the ranged ones (IE, Il Grants vs. Ra Grants).

I'm a little disappointed that Megid is still so weak that Il Megid likely will be preferable to it for AoE damage in all situations, though.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:29 PM
Ty SEGA. Gotta try Dem gunslash PAs once it's live! Already got most of them in LV.16 too!


I swear no one is reading the thread.

They're changing the notations on the numbers shown to more accurately show the damage you're likely to get. The numbers are completely arbitrary. They probably just have Ilmegid showing the damage for more than one hit or something.


No, the notation used is total damage I believe which is not always the same as what's shown in game. Ilmegid is definitely nerfed, although by how much we don't know yet.

Edit: Dang Kondibon beat me to it.


exactly this, we cant judge their new strength relative to the current levels because they use a different system to determine the power notation.
http://static.tumblr.com/8f60e843c464023a884dcbb21a8a964f/chpteyw/kE8mvezq4/tumblr_static_transparent_box_for_tumblr_layout.gi f
pls

Bellion
Aug 23, 2014, 07:33 PM
Shunka used to be in the 700s and that only accounted for the first hit. Shunka is now 2k+ and accounts for all 5 hits. Shunka's true modifier before nerf was 4k+ accounting for all 5.

Seriously, don't just look at the numbers of charged PAs or multi-hitting PAs because SEGA usually doesn't factor all hits.

Macmaxi
Aug 23, 2014, 07:40 PM
This thread should just be closed. Right now it's just a list with numbers. I can't wait to see everyone shaking heads at the damage numbers ingame because they were expecting something that was never set in stone.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:41 PM
If you guys wanna get excited for quantifiable stuff get excited for the PP cost reductions. :9

oratank
Aug 23, 2014, 07:41 PM
Holding Current 8-)
1150->3920

Grapple Charge :-?
600->1055
PP 25->20

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:43 PM
This thread should just be closed. Right now it's just a list with numbers. I can't wait to see everyone shaking heads at the damage numbers ingame because they were expecting something that was never set in stone.

I don't think we should just cut off any and all discussion just because a few people can't keep it in their pants. A lot of these PAs and techs ARE still getting buffed, it's just hard to tell by how much for some of them.

Macmaxi
Aug 23, 2014, 07:44 PM
I'm really crossing my fingers for the "speed" upgrade, but somehow i don't believe they can get rid of the clunkiness of hunters. Not that i specifically mind, it just takes a bit more planning.


Edit: Yeah maybe not closing. I should pick my words better. I guess pre-patch hype is just the usual business.

GHNeko
Aug 23, 2014, 07:45 PM
If you guys wanna get excited for quantifiable stuff get excited for the PP cost reductions. :9


BUT OMG DIDNT YOU SEE THE JUMP FROM JETSKATE PA4 15 to 16?

OMG SEGA WAT R U DOIN

JETSKATES OP OP OP

AND PA1-3 ARE ALL 1200+ OMGGGGGG

IRUMEGIDO GOT BUFFED OMFG

IRUMEGIDO STAR ONLINE 2 12 MORE YEARSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rakurai
Aug 23, 2014, 07:46 PM
Grapple Charge :-?
600->1055
PP 25->20

I fail to see the issue.

They intend for Grapple Charge to be a gap closer for Wired Lances, not a top damage PA.

Macmaxi
Aug 23, 2014, 07:47 PM
BUT OMG DIDNT YOU SEE THE JUMP FROM JETSKATE PA4 15 to 16?

OMG SEGA WAT R U DOIN

JETSKATES OP OP OP

AND PA1-3 ARE ALL 1200+ OMGGGGGG

IRUMEGIDO GOT BUFFED OMFG

IRUMEGIDO STAR ONLINE 2 12 MORE YEARSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Didn't you see the buff on Hatou? It basically deals 8 times the damage now!

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:47 PM
To be honest I was, for a second, wondering why all the bouncer PAs have such high multipliers... but then I remembered they also all have stupidly long animations so...


Didn't you see the buff on Hatou? It basically deals 8 times the damage now!

http://i.imgur.com/hh5Wt72.jpg

Macmaxi
Aug 23, 2014, 07:49 PM
I was suprised the most about the huuuuge hitboxes of their attacks. Knuckles users are already crying in every imaginable corner that will put the final nail in the coffin.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:51 PM
I was suprised the most about the huuuuge hitboxes of their attacks. Knuckles users are already crying in every imaginable corner that will put the final nail in the coffin.Knuckles users don't have charge and then wait a full 5 seconds for all their PAs to do all their damage. I:

Asdfv
Aug 23, 2014, 07:52 PM
pls

But in the case of the gunslash, most of its PA already accurately displayed the total power. I think the exceptions are Thrillerplode (6 hits at 20% displayed power, for a total of 120%) and Kreisenschlag (3x 30% + 2x 40%, 170% total)

oratank
Aug 23, 2014, 07:53 PM
IRUMEGIDO STAR ONLINE

that's my auto word for tec

Macmaxi
Aug 23, 2014, 07:54 PM
Knuckles users don't have charge and then wait a full 5 seconds for all their PAs to do all their damage. I:


I'm not complaining here, my heart just dies a little inside for each missed BHS.

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 07:56 PM
But in the case of the gunslash, most of its PA already accurately displayed the total power. I think the exceptions are Thrillerplode (6 hits at 20% displayed power, for a total of 120%) and Kreisenschlag (3x 30% + 2x 40%, 170% total)I guess so. :-?


I'm not complaining here, my heart just dies a little inside for each missed BHS.Then stop using BHS against a boss that isn't stunned. I find flash thousand, Surprise Knuckle, and Dempsy Pendulum Roll more reliable against anything that can actually move or that I can't safely clip into.

Kiydon
Aug 23, 2014, 08:02 PM
These display the maximum values of damages, so actually hatou isn't getting buffed by that much(just displays the damage of all its hits combined) and Il megid is getting nerfed (hits 4 times right now, so getting cut in half?)

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 08:05 PM
These display the maximum values of damages, so actually hatou isn't getting buffed (just displays the damage of all its hits combined) and Il megid is getting nerfed (hits 4 times right now, so getting cut in half?)They aren't nessicerily counting the maximum potential damage. Things like Zan can just go forever if you let them, and Messiah Time's multiplier is actually about 300% lower than the JP wiki's estimate despite not being one of the PAs that got nerfed.

Chances are they're still doing the same thing they did before and just trying to be more accurate about it.

Stickboy
Aug 23, 2014, 08:06 PM
wonder if overend got faster animation now

Kondibon
Aug 23, 2014, 08:08 PM
wonder if overend got faster animation now
Probably... I hope so. D: I also hope the other sword PAs get faster charge times. I want them all to charge at least as fast as ride slasher.

Arksenth
Aug 23, 2014, 08:26 PM
OHOHOHOHO

RAGRANTS

LIGHT TE/FI SUPREMACY

vaerix
Aug 23, 2014, 08:26 PM
I'MMA FIRIN MY..
ragrants.

oratank
Aug 23, 2014, 08:48 PM
OHOHOHOHO

RAGRANTS

LIGHT TE/FI SUPREMACY

i use Ilgrants at point blank feel much stronger than ragrant

Arksenth
Aug 23, 2014, 08:52 PM
i use Ilgrants at point blank feel much stronger than ragrant

0.70 second charge time reduction recipe says you have no idea what you're doing.

Go away now.

oratank
Aug 23, 2014, 09:16 PM
0.70 second charge time reduction recipe says you have no idea what you're doing.

Go away now.

really that's 1 time weaker than ilgrant if u have ton of pp fine suit yourself

Zyrusticae
Aug 23, 2014, 09:46 PM
Speed Rain
575-1268

Namegid
6478->3239

Ilmegid
505->960
WHAT

WHAT!?

WHAT

WATWATWATWATWATWATWATWATWATWAT

GHNeko
Aug 23, 2014, 10:17 PM
Zyru pls.

y u no read thread

Aine
Aug 23, 2014, 10:34 PM
so if ilmegid is 5 hits, does that mean it got nerfed to 40%? lol

Zyrusticae
Aug 23, 2014, 10:36 PM
Zyru pls.

y u no read thread
I'll get around to it when I have time!

I just had to go look at the file first.

NoiseHERO
Aug 23, 2014, 10:41 PM
It's way more exciting when you don't read the thread/care about how the math behind PA's work.

The Walrus
Aug 23, 2014, 10:43 PM
And then you learn the math and the disappointment sets in ;_;

Sanguine2009
Aug 23, 2014, 11:30 PM
really that's 1 time weaker than ilgrant if u have ton of pp fine suit yourself

you have never played melee techer have you? that class has toooooons of pp generation

infiniteeverlasting
Aug 23, 2014, 11:49 PM
Time to enjoy hunter even more :3.
Ride slasher 4 lyfe

Zyrusticae
Aug 24, 2014, 12:06 AM
Okay, so hold on. Speed Rain hits 5 or 6 times, right? So does that mean that, given the new notation, it actually got NERFED? Or what? Am I not understanding something?

Or was the old one completely wrong and not indicative of its damage output whatsoever?

I am so confused.

As for

Megid
349->474
SEGA, I am disappoint. It better have a speed and tracking buff and/or an increase in its AoE or I will just have to use something else in its place. You know... like Ilmegid.

HIT0SHI
Aug 24, 2014, 12:28 AM
Time to enjoy hunter even more :3.
Ride slasher 4 lyfe

^ Oh yeah and this as well.

Temjin Ride Slasher 4 lyfe!

Metalsnake27
Aug 24, 2014, 12:33 AM
Okay, so hold on. Speed Rain hits 5 or 6 times, right? So does that mean that, given the new notation, it actually got NERFED? Or what? Am I not understanding something?

Or was the old one completely wrong and not indicative of its damage output whatsoever?

I am so confused.

As for

SEGA, I am disappoint. It better have a speed and tracking buff and/or an increase in its AoE or I will just have to use something else in its place. You know... like Ilmegid.

I honestly would just wait until we get the official numbers from the game itself... it's just confusing everyone at this point lol.

Speed rain is the last thing that needed a nerf....

Skyly
Aug 24, 2014, 12:38 AM
This thread makes no sense.

WildarmsRE5
Aug 24, 2014, 12:55 AM
This thread makes no sense.you just nailed this whole topic.

aside from PP nerfs/buffs which do makes sense.

GoldenFalcon
Aug 24, 2014, 01:59 AM
I am totally certain that Speed Rain used to be 5 hits of ~100% damage. Now it's worth something (5 hits of ~250%)

And from what I know, Irumegid is based on 3 targets. It is a nerf no matter what. A needed one. Megid 4 life.

Skyly
Aug 24, 2014, 02:02 AM
you just nailed this whole topic.

aside from PP nerfs/buffs which do makes sense.

Exatly!

NoiseHERO
Aug 24, 2014, 02:06 AM
I'ma narrow down what I wanna know.

How much more viable is fighter's PAs outside of d'arch/blackhand smash/bloody tampaxaband? Cause too lazy to think for my self @ math.

Sanguine2009
Aug 24, 2014, 02:09 AM
we dont know, nor do we have any way of accurately guessing due to the power notation being calculated differently. for now these numbers might as well be completely arbitrary.

NoiseHERO
Aug 24, 2014, 02:11 AM
Fine...

._.

GHNeko
Aug 24, 2014, 02:14 AM
It's okay Rock!

Speculate as much as you want!

It'd what everyone does anyways!

invadrgir
Aug 24, 2014, 02:16 AM
Can't wait to see how Ranger turns out with these changes.

Rakurai
Aug 24, 2014, 03:25 AM
Wonder if they're going to adjust the damage values of all the technique customizations to go along with update.

If not, some of them would be really underwhelming after the buffs, while others like Na Megid would be ridiculous (+1500% power would be a nearly 50% damage increase, as opposed to near 25% increase it is now due to the broken damage notation).

Limbo_lag
Aug 24, 2014, 04:35 AM
Assuming that most of these changes are buffs, and not % relabeling, this change would encourage diversity. Since damage is now less dependent on class/subclass (cough*HUsub*cough) and more on PA% now.

Maenara
Aug 24, 2014, 05:14 AM
If Nazonde's power was a straight up buff, it would be Nazonde master race everywhere.

Unnamed Player
Aug 24, 2014, 05:24 AM
Quick calculation of GU/HU new relative power level compared to old one, using Elder Rebellion as main DPS:

Hunter (Ranged) Fury Stance multiplier
Old : 1.932612
New : 1.61417025

Gunner multiplier (point blank, full HP, excluding TMG gear)
Old : 3.174
New : 2.5392

Total multiplier from skill trees:
Old : 6.134110488
New : 4.0987010988 (66.82% of former damage)

Elder Rebellion :
Old : 6.03
New : 9.73

Rough total multiplier :
Old : 36.98868624264
New : 39.880361691324 (7.8% more ER damage than before, not to mention that you can perform ER one after another 4x with 130 PP now, up from 3x, which means 33% less downtime between PA!)

Add in Chain Trigger / Chain Finish (maxed Chain Finish will deal almost 3x damage) usable on-the-fly during combat. (Fist bump animation to be removed)

Gunner is now more solid than before. Kudos to SEGA!Nope:

Infinite Fire:
Old : 772
New : 987

0,6682 * (987 / 772) * 100 = 85,429 (~15% less damage than before)

You win some, you lose some but overall it’s a nerf.


Homing Emission
414->1512
This is just stupid. v.v

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 05:27 AM
If Nazonde's power was a straight up buff, it would be Nazonde master race everywhere.
I think Nazonde's damage was for a single hit, but we don't know how many hits the new damage number is for, or if it includes the really strong one at the start.

elryan
Aug 24, 2014, 05:45 AM
Nope:

Infinite Fire:
Old : 772
New : 987

0,6682 * (987 / 772) * 100 = 85,429 (~15% less damage than before)

You win some, you lose some but overall it’s a nerf.



I admit Infinite Fire deals more damage number-wise before and after patch but we also need to see things from the animation perspective.

Infinite Fire deals full damage over 6 seconds while Elder Rebellion deals full damage over 3 seconds.

New Infinite Fire unloads 130 PP worth of damage over 24 seconds (987% damage * 4 / 24s = 164.5 damage per second)

New Elder Rebellion unloads 130 PP worth of damage over merely 12 seconds (973% * 4 / 12s = 324.33 damage per second)

As you can see, you can empty out your PP and regens it back fast using APPR in half amount of time using Elder Rebellion instead of Infinite Fire. The old Elder Rebellion has downtime problem because of steep 40 PP cost, but not anymore.

With this patch, there's absolutely no reason to use Infinite Fire other than positioning compared to using Elder Rebellion to quickly deal damage.

NexusAZ
Aug 24, 2014, 05:53 AM
I admit Infinite Fire deals more damage number-wise before and after patch but we also need to see things from the animation perspective.

Infinite Fire deals full damage over 6 seconds while Elder Rebellion deals full damage over 3 seconds.

New Infinite Fire unloads 130 PP worth of damage over 24 seconds (987% damage * 4 / 24s = 164.5 damage per second)

New Elder Rebellion unloads 130 PP worth of damage over merely 12 seconds (973% * 4 / 12s = 324.33 damage per second)

As you can see, you can empty out your PP and regens it back fast using APPR in half amount of time using Elder Rebellion instead of Infinite Fire. The old Elder Rebellion has downtime problem because of steep 40 PP cost, but not anymore.

With this patch, there's absolutely no reason to use Infinite Fire other than positioning compared to using Elder Rebellion to quickly deal damage.

I actively avoid Elder Rebellion unless it's something I can't send in the air or I'm solo.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 05:55 AM
I actively avoid Elder Rebellion unless it's something I can't send in the air or I'm solo.... why?

Sacrificial
Aug 24, 2014, 06:01 AM
... why?

because If you can't kill the mobs in 1 ER you will have mobs flying around everywhere just like in the prebuff gunner time.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 06:03 AM
because If you can't kill the mobs in 1 ER you will have mobs flying around everywhere just like in the prebuff gunner time.Oh, I misread what he said. I understand.

SilenWhisper
Aug 24, 2014, 06:50 AM
So why don't techs have pp reductions since everything else does?

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 07:05 AM
So why don't techs have pp reductions since everything else does?A few techs DID get pp reductions. The ones that didn't are mostly ones with -pp cost crafts and/or lightning techs, or already had pretty balanced PP costs for what they do.

SilenWhisper
Aug 24, 2014, 07:49 AM
A few techs DID get pp reductions. The ones that didn't are mostly ones with -pp cost crafts and/or lightning techs, or already had pretty balanced PP costs for what they do.
I'm not seeing any pp reductions on techs.

Also by comparing Tech dmg/cost with most PAs it's obvious that Techs & PAs are NOT balanced.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 07:57 AM
I'm not seeing any pp reductions on techs.

Also by comparing Tech dmg/cost with most PAs it's obvious that Techs & PAs are NOT balanced.Nagrants, Nabarta, and barta all got pp cost reductions.

And if you're just comparing the damage/cost ratio based purely on the "multipliers" without taking into account things like AoE, range, and animation speed you're doing it wrong.

SilenWhisper
Aug 24, 2014, 08:41 AM
If you're just comparing the damage/cost ratio based purely on the "multipliers" without taking into account things like AoE, range, and animation speed you're doing it wrong.
I see your point.
Aside from that though,seeing is believing so until these changes are in-game observed,I can't say with certainty whether or not Techs/PAs are balanced based on those criterias.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 08:53 AM
I see your point.
Aside from that though,seeing is believing so until these changes are in-game observed,I can't say with certainty whether or not Techs/PAs are balanced based on those criterias.Well yeah, that's my point. I:

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 09:32 AM
So it looks like what Sega is doing is demonstrating why damage notations need more information than just a plain damage value.

Heel Stab, for instance, should be:
Damage: x-y
Hits: z
Chargeable: Yes
Charge bonus: Damage/Hits/Range
Output Damage: Striking & Ranged
It hits z times, for x-y damage. Normal bullets would be x, blasts would be y.

Deadly Archer?
Damage: x
Hits: z
Chargeable: Yes
Charge Bonus: Hits/Range
Output Damage: Striking

Shunka?
Damage: x
Hits: z
Chargeable: Yes
Charge Bonus: Hits/Range
Output Damage: Striking

Homing Emission:
Damage: x
Hits: 1-z (isn't it capped at like 6?)
Chargeable: No
Output Damage: Ranged

It doesn't need to be perfectly informative, but it needs to be better than this clusterfuck abortion-that-should-have-been. This damage notation we have now is misleading or even wrong at almost every possible turn. This fix does little to resolve that, given how different attacks are. Either explain it better, or don't explain it at all.

isCasted
Aug 24, 2014, 10:20 AM
They should've not even bothered with displaying those multipliers. That number should be relative damage compared to level 1 of that same PA if they wanted to show that higher levels are improving something.

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 10:23 AM
They should've not even bothered with displaying those multipliers. That number should be relative damage compared to level 1 of that same PA if they wanted to show that higher levels are improving something.

I've thought about that, but then the complaint they'll get is that X PA has a bigger number than Y PA but it's weaker and WHY IS THAT SEGA?

Really, without more than 1 stat the whole system is fucked.

UnLucky
Aug 24, 2014, 10:40 AM
Crosspost:

I'm hoping they're fixing the notation for a lot of things, otherwise Namegid is going to be worthless. It only did 50% of the displayed Power, so hopefully it now does 100% of the new value since that's cut in half.

Nabarta's currently 1/4 of 509 per hit, but the new value is 228. Garbage, or adjusted?
Sabarta from 3/4 of 544 (408) -> 780 (585?)
Rabarta was 4/3 of 360 (480) -> 591 (788?)
Compared to Barta's 534 and Gibarta's 697, those numbers look really wrong if they still don't account for the hits properly.

If it is adjusted, then Zan's new 425 power is the same as its old value of 283 (424), and Samegid's new 710 is actually not that much stronger than its old 394 (591) power.

Besides, Ilmegid went from 505 to 960 yet they said it was being nerfed. Same with Ilgrants's change from 255 -> 878 so who knows what's going on there.
I hate the PA power notation.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 10:56 AM
Honestly, if they're normalizing the pacing of the PAs... is there really even a reason for them to level up at all?

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 11:07 AM
Honestly, if they're normalizing the pacing of the PAs... is there really even a reason for them to level up at all?

Incentive to play higher level areas repeatedly.

PAs are the common rares of PSO2. Where PSO1 had you farming let's say a dozen weapons, with 1 uber rare, 3 very rares, 2-3 special commons with high hit (45 Hit Demon's Laser, etc.), and 5-6 lowend/common rares (let's say varista, musashi, whatever), PSO2 has the same thing but with rare weapons as the uber & very rares, and then higher level PAs as the lowend/common rares.

Here's the more important question: Why aren't normal attacks brought up to snuff? I know they're mostly meant for PP regeneration, however their damage should still be rising somehow to be on par with PA growth.

Perhaps normal attack damage should scale with your level? Maybe JA Bonus and similar skills should boost normal attacks more?

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 11:21 AM
Normal attacks are in a weird place. I don't think they need to scale or anything, but it seems like some weapons have bad normal attacks while others have good ones. Launchers, swords, wands, and knuckles, have strong normals, while TMGs, rifles, and gunslashes have weaker ones.

While I like the idea of certain weapons having fast but weak attacks to build up your pp faster, and others having slow heavy hitting attacks that aren't as good for pp recovery, I do agree that they all kinda need to be bumped up a notch.

I think that's what that new braver skill is meant to be for... but this just makes me think we seriously need a general skill tree. I:

Schubalts
Aug 24, 2014, 11:38 AM
Honestly, if they're normalizing the pacing of the PAs... is there really even a reason for them to level up at all?

They're normalized in the sense that PAs won't get such a massive power increase at rank 16 (looking at you, partizans and rifles), but will instead have a smoother power curve.

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 11:43 AM
Well, I like the idea of melee and certain other weapons having strong normal attacks to give the player a basic type of performance - normal, if you will.

Wired Lances are one of the best examples of what I mean. Their normals have nice oomph, nice range, etc. They feel like a definitive attack that WLs should be based around. WL PAs are unique variations for specialized types of attacks, built around that base. Swords need more stopping power, and partisans need less hitstop - maybe even none at all (Honestly, I find partisans entirely redundant given WLs are clearly for crowd control, but that's another discussion).

Rifles I'm fine with having a weak normal attack. They have PAs as unique bullets for their damage. Launchers, just like WLs, I like having powerful normals. They're meant to deal a baseline of that kind of damage and AOE, with PAs building around it for unique applications.

TMGs are in a tricky spot, but I do prefer their normals to be weak. Katanas are the weird one - I don't even like their normals. Bows feel a bit too weak IMO, I'd rather they had stronger normals.

Talises are...weird. They should be weak on force, but they should be stronger on techer. Like, way stronger. Techer should get a skill to increase normal attack damage by a huge amount. Let's say...+300%? Then +1000% for talises?

UnLucky
Aug 24, 2014, 12:07 PM
I think that's what that new braver skill is meant to be for... but this just makes me think we seriously need a general skill tree. I:

While certainly every class needs the same kind of things, I think they were trying to get a unique feel between all the options. If the world were a better place, these kind of differences would decide your subclass and specialization.

Hunter for survivability, Fighter for crits and backstabs, Ranger for weakness exploitation, Gunner for evasion and active PP regen, and Techer for passive regen and support. Braver would then be the sub of choice for a focus on normal attacks.

I was hoping the class rebalancing would let players choose their subclass more freely for these quirks rather than raw damage, but that still doesn't seem the case, especially with all the main class only skills.

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 12:21 PM
While certainly every class needs the same kind of things, I think they were trying to get a unique feel between all the options. If the world were a better place, these kind of differences would decide your subclass and specialization.

Hunter for survivability, Fighter for crits and backstabs, Ranger for weakness exploitation, Gunner for evasion and active PP regen, and Techer for passive regen and support. Braver would then be the sub of choice for a focus on normal attacks.

I was hoping the class rebalancing would let players choose their subclass more freely for these quirks rather than raw damage, but that still doesn't seem the case, especially with all the main class only skills.

I'm not really sure Sega understands this to be an option, and is instead just throwing numbers at players because that satisfies a huge majority of them.

We all remember the tryhard elitist twats on our own original PS game. For me, in PSO1 it was always "wah wah you're a force why are you attacking you should heal me so I can Zanba all day" or "why are you using a Zanba you scrub you should use charge mechs" or "why aren't you a ranger" and wah wah wah wah wah. There was always some other manchild/childchild that thought he knew best and 1001 damage at one range was always better than 900 damage at all ranges.

From what I recall in PSU, there were similar constant contradictory childish gripes. Those were always the most vocal and most visible players, and I think Sega is just playing into what satisfies (silences) them - numbers, and extremes. If it doesn't raise their damage with their one favorite weapon - either sword or rifle or whatever - they say it's shit. This means they automatically despise hybrid builds, because why do 80% damage at all ranges with 80% strength buffs if you can do 101% damage at one range range (and 0% damage at the others, with no ability to buff)?

Applying thought and strategy is for scrubs. Hold on while I brag about my 720 noscope that I totally got on the first try after 86 tries.

It's possible to make a hybrid-friendly game with what they have here, where hybrids are capable of performing as well as specialists, however it means making the manchildren feel less special and they're the ones Sega has always seemed to pay attention to.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 12:45 PM
They're normalized in the sense that PAs won't get such a massive power increase at rank 16 (looking at you, partizans and rifles), but will instead have a smoother power curve.I mulled over what I said and figured out why it bothers me. What's the point of having a smooth power curve AND 16 levels of minor increases when the disks are drops anyway and you can (and most people do) end up skipping half the levels, intentionally or not. A lot of my rare PAs and techs went from like 0 to level 9/10 to level 16.


but that still doesn't seem the case, especially with all the main class only skills.I feel like I have something to say to this but I can't gather my thoughts at the moment.



Talises are...weird. They should be weak on force, but they should be stronger on techer. Like, way stronger. Techer should get a skill to increase normal attack damage by a huge amount. Let's say...+300%? Then +1000% for talises?Turn wand gear into Techer gear: Talis hits can cause explosions as well.
The talis damage would still be the same, but the explosions would scale the same way as the wand ones (or maybe scale with r-atk multipliers?) and they would have the extra range of talis cards. :wacko:

EDIT: Honestly, I don't think damage is what talis normals need... Like, the whole point of talis is that it's a utility weapon and I think talis tech bonus was pretty poorly thought out. I'd rather it get better PP regen or something so you have a reason to use it for that aspect over switching to a gunslash to pewpewthings.

Achelousaurus
Aug 24, 2014, 12:50 PM
It's going to be so fun playing hunter in EP3. Look at all these mega giant buffs, especially to SWORD. 20 PP PA's all over the place!

Going to be great being able to use pretty much any PA you want with any wep in any situation that it fits for. EP3 will finally give us actual choices and let us play how we want. will be amazing.

Sword master race.
Yeah. I was totally gonna max my hunter early and get bio Katana first with my stones.
But ever since I heard of the hu buffs I decided I will take my sweet time with hunter and only use hu weapons.
It's gonna be EPIC!

Hard to tell what's happening most of the time...
...except the obvious Backhand Smash nerf, which I am glad about.
I don't really see the point of it. Yeah, I know if you are gud you can reliably hit a weakpoint for massive damage.
But I don't feel it's worth the risk of missing if the enemy decides to move in the moment (which they frequently do).
With the nerf I really don't have a reason to use it anymore and can rest assured I am not playing a weaksauce knuckle fighter by not using this PA.

I don't get the DA boost though (assuming it is one) cause it's already #1 for DS by a good margin and I thought ep3 was supposed to balance things, not increase the gap.

I really love the Kanran boost cause at the moment it is weak unless you have epic gear. Only useful for small mobs / building KFC hits in groups.
And I kinda doubt it's uncharged before and charged for the new number, it should be the same (considering power only).
Which means even counting 2 hits it should be at least a 74% damage increase.

Likewise, Sakura Endo gets a huge boost.
A 210% damage increase (310% of the original power).
It will be really strong cause even now it has pretty good damage.

The Fudou boost is pointless though, it's still to weak to use.

Sadly Hatou and Torrential Arrow are pas where you can't really know what the numbers mean cause they don't have a fixed number of hits.
But I like the Million Storm PP reduction, even though it's not nearly enough and activation should be no mroe than 20 PP to make it frequently useful.
If it got a damage increase you will now even more often have the problem of running out of things to attack and either wasting pp by continuing to shoot and hope something gets into range or stopping and re-activating for the huge PP cost.


I hope this Satellite Cannon number actually translates to a big nerf. It's just too damn OP.

But I LOVE the Crazy Smash PP reduction. Such a fun PA to use and now I can spam it all day long XD.
Same goes for the Dead Approach boost, PAs that let me play ping pong with enemies are the best! (excluding Backhand Smash cause it doesn't hit often enough).
Satellite Aim is a nice PA to use. the pp reduction is nice, especially cause of the low range.

Lol, bigass Ilfoie nerf.
Too big though. It was rather OP but not this much, should stayed at like 2500 power or something cause it's slow enough to balance out high damage.

Same for Namegid, a bit more power would have been fine.
Nice casting speed increase for Gimegid.


so if ilmegid is 5 hits, does that mean it got nerfed to 40%? lol
If it really hits 5 times, it will be at 36% power.This would be epic.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/5b/5bcfab0d99d4bb7cb8c7267fe7fb9cc5753065b77eb3a823f8 1f5d27941224a7.jpg
FYI I don't just hate on Ilmegid, I dislike any vastly OP skill/spell in games that destroys the balance.
I didn't like Shunka much before the nerf either and got really bored of spamming it cause few other PAs came close.


With this patch, there's absolutely no reason to use Infinite Fire other than positioning compared to using Elder Rebellion to quickly deal damage.
True.
At the moment I already don't use much IF and far more ER cause of this.
IF is just great for enemies/bosses that require you do react quickly, which you can't with ER without cancelling it.
Also, ER looks infinitely cooler 8-)


I think that's what that new braver skill is meant to be for... but this just makes me think we seriously need a general skill tree. I:
Katana's normal attack is quite strong already considering the speed.
It out-dpses some hunter weapon skills atm and with the boost it will be really good (but hopefully hu weapon buffs will prove bigger yet).
Which I really appreciate cause I love using it. And of course due to the speed it's already it's great for pp recovering.


TMGs are in a tricky spot, but I do prefer their normals to be weak.
Weak is perfectly fine cause of the speed and cause you can easily max the PP recovery skill to double it for normal attacks, so you rarely use normal attacks.

On a side note, I finally found out what the SRoll special attack is. I heard it was weak and bad but wanted to try it out and after much trying and questioning I finally realized it has exactly the same animation as normal attacks, but slightly more power and consumes PP.
Holy shit, this is lame!

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 12:53 PM
On a side note, I finally found out what the SRoll special attack is. I heard it was weak and bad but wanted to try it out and after much trying and questioning I finally realized it has exactly the same animation as normal attacks, but slightly more power and consumes PP.
Holy shit, this is lame!
It's useful while you're building up chains since it's a prereque for S-roll JA anyway, but not worth maxing.

IndigoNovember
Aug 24, 2014, 12:58 PM
I mulled over what I said and figured out why it bothers me. What's the point of having a smooth power curve AND 16 levels of minor increases when the disks are drops anyway and you can (and most people do) end up skipping half the levels, intentionally or not. A lot of my rare PAs and techs went from like 0 to level 9/10 to level 16.

It doesn't help the matter that rare enemy PAs, besides the ones in the Photon Drop Shop, cannot be found at lower levels since rare enemies do not spawn in Normal and Hard mode. So you're pretty much forced to skip levels in the first place with those. All those well thought out lower level power numbers, completely ignored (´・ω・`) .

kazuuya
Aug 24, 2014, 01:09 PM
Reading through this thread makes me really wonder about that one Jet Boots PA though, the one that has this huge jump on lvl 16. Also that unknown Launcher PA that has the exact same stats as another Launcher PA, I wonder if that's some leftover dummy data.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 24, 2014, 01:18 PM
Kaiser rise going down to 20 pp... crap i gotta change my affix plans to get more S atk on bio lances and drop spirita 4.

Also, sacred skewer still continues to be behind kaiser rise in being a ranged S atk option for pse bursts...

That hatou buff though, my pessimism is saying it's just a change to the PA details to accurately display its total potential damage like shunka's power rating now?

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 01:36 PM
Reading through this thread makes me really wonder about that one Jet Boots PA though, the one that has this huge jump on lvl 16. Also that unknown Launcher PA that has the exact same stats as another Launcher PA, I wonder if that's some leftover dummy data.That's probably exactly what it is. The last batch of PAs was in the data well before they came out so it wouldn't surprised me.

Infact we might be able to do the same glitch we did with Million Storm and Kazan to see the animation of that 4th Boot PA if it really isn't coming out at launch.




That hatou buff though, my pessimism is saying it's just a change to the PA details to accurately display its total potential damage like shunka's power rating now?It's probably a little of both. This is why I'm more excited about the PP cost changes. Even if the PAs still do the same damage, a lot of them are getting flat out cheaper.

PokeminMaster
Aug 24, 2014, 01:51 PM
Oh boy, those changes to light Techs look great! I really like the idea of using light and dark Techs, although many of them were impractical...

HeyItsTHK
Aug 24, 2014, 01:54 PM
*temples fingers at Flame Bullet* Potential damage be damned, it has no where to go but up. Excellent.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 01:58 PM
*temples fingers at Flame Bullet* Potential damage be damned, it has no where to go but up. Excellent.
This plays in my head whenever I use a flamethrower in any game. I just thought you all should know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoARQRCvpQU

Sandmind
Aug 24, 2014, 01:58 PM
It doesn't help the matter that rare enemy PAs, besides the ones in the Photon Drop Shop, cannot be found at lower levels since rare enemies do not spawn in Normal and Hard mode. So you're pretty much forced to skip levels in the first place with those. All those well thought out lower level power numbers, completely ignored (´・ω・`) .

They updated common version of enemy to be able to drop their rare disc at a low rate up to lv10. For 11-16, yeah, need to find the rare enemy itself.

Shiyo
Aug 24, 2014, 02:10 PM
Can't wait to see how Ranger turns out with these changes.

Mandatory because weak bullet exists.

A few techs DID get pp reductions. The ones that didn't are mostly ones with -pp cost crafts and/or lightning techs, or already had pretty balanced PP costs for what they do.

Balancing an entire element around a single trait in a single tree is pretty good design.

I thought this new dev wasn't retarded and played the game?

HeyItsTHK
Aug 24, 2014, 02:29 PM
Mandatory because weak bullet exists.


Balancing an entire element around a single trait in a single tree is pretty good design.

I thought this new dev wasn't retarded and played the game?

Having lowered pp costs and pp save would be a bit much. And I'm sure there is no desire to remove pp save (or can't. New dev in charge or not, if hire ups say no, then no.).

'sides isn't that the point by -design-? Fire and lightning, by design, are supposed to be high powered, so they have these cons to offset their pros, tis why Flame S Charge and Bolt PP Save exist.

Shiyo
Aug 24, 2014, 02:32 PM
Lightning currently is the worst element in the game, though.

HeyItsTHK
Aug 24, 2014, 02:36 PM
That's why I specified, by design.

And personally I feel light is the worst.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 02:43 PM
Balancing an entire element around a single trait in a single tree is pretty good design.

I thought this new dev wasn't retarded and played the game?
They aren't "Balanced entirely around it" any more than fire techs (except maybe Il foie) are balanced around having flame charge. :/ I agree with THK, light is the worst element right now.

Lightning just ran into roadblocks because of the reliance on zondeel and the zonde "nerf".

Edson Drake
Aug 24, 2014, 02:56 PM
Even after the big update, will Light techs still have a higher charge time than the other elements?

Is this because Light was supposed to be the strongest element, while like, not really?

C'mon

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 03:07 PM
Being that gizonde's effectiveness still seems to be largely influenced by your ping (afaict, high ping = delayed hit = moving things aren't hit = gizonde doesn't hit and doesn't chain to another target) I really don't have any high expectations for Sega fixing techs properly.

Sanguine2009
Aug 24, 2014, 04:25 PM
well unless they did something like made a lightning tech that was the unholy child of il megid(without the gear requirements) and pre nerf shunka it would still actively hurt MPAs by sheer virtue of igniting zondeel.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 04:40 PM
Being that gizonde's effectiveness still seems to be largely influenced by your ping (afaict, high ping = delayed hit = moving things aren't hit = gizonde doesn't hit and doesn't chain to another target) I really don't have any high expectations for Sega fixing techs properly.Does this actually happen? It's never happened to me, and that might be why I have a higher opinion of lightning techs in general.

horseship
Aug 24, 2014, 04:49 PM
I would personally love to see lightning techs get buffed to have the same general viability as ice and dark right now. Gizonde and Zonde especially. It'd be interesting to make forces pick between single target damage (ice) and mobbing (lightning). Of course every non force player will just tell you to not pick lightning anyway and spam moar zondeel, but I just think it'd be interesting nonetheless.

gigawuts
Aug 24, 2014, 04:50 PM
Does this actually happen? It's never happened to me, and that might be why I have a higher opinion of lightning techs in general.

Oh yes, it wasn't at all unusual for me to see my gizonde end in space next to something that was moving, leaving a little orb in empty space next to the target and dealing no damage without continuing to another target. It'd just stop there.

It would frequently hit one thing, then bounce and stop short of hitting the second thing, making it very costly to use with very poor results.

Daiyousei
Aug 24, 2014, 05:12 PM
Oh yes, it wasn't at all unusual for me to see my gizonde end in space next to something that was moving, leaving a little orb in empty space next to the target and dealing no damage without continuing to another target. It'd just stop there.

It would frequently hit one thing, then bounce and stop short of hitting the second thing, making it very costly to use with very poor results.

I never had that happen either, I guess it's just people with bad net.

Maenara
Aug 24, 2014, 05:15 PM
You guys could always ask for Zondeel to be unable to be ignited, instead of hoping for no powerful zonde techs.

kazuuya
Aug 24, 2014, 05:15 PM
Infact we might be able to do the same glitch we did with Million Storm and Kazan to see the animation of that 4th Boot PA if it really isn't coming out at launch.


Oh I sure kinda hope that happens! I'm really curious to see how that 4th Boot PA animation looks like. Were the Jetboots PAs showed somewhere? I remember I saw a post about the Photon Blade (was that the name of those blades?) PAs but I don't remember the Jetboots...

Sanguine2009
Aug 24, 2014, 05:25 PM
You guys could always ask for Zondeel to be unable to be ignited, instead of hoping for no powerful zonde techs.

we have been, or at least i have. but sega does not exactly listen to western players

Rakurai
Aug 24, 2014, 05:44 PM
I hope they'll release a talis with the lightning damage latent for the sake of abusing the buffed Ra Zonde.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2014, 05:53 PM
Oh yes, it wasn't at all unusual for me to see my gizonde end in space next to something that was moving, leaving a little orb in empty space next to the target and dealing no damage without continuing to another target. It'd just stop there.

It would frequently hit one thing, then bounce and stop short of hitting the second thing, making it very costly to use with very poor results.I actually think that's a range thing, not a latency one. I've seen it come up short between chains if an enemy is too far away from the others even if the bolts go out. I also think it's based on the enemy's distance from you instead of from the last target because I always get FAR better results using a talis.

Let me rephrase that. I think the actual range is based off how close the enemies are to you, rather than how close they are to the last one that chained. If they're too far from you, but still close enough to another enemy then it'll show the sparks but won't do any damage or chain from that enemy. I think I get better results with a Talis because I tend to throw them into the middle of groups of enemies rather than attacking from the edge of a group of enemies like I do with a rod or wand.


You guys could always ask for Zondeel to be unable to be ignited, instead of hoping for no powerful zonde techs.My ideal solution has always been letting it be ignited, but having it continue to suck enemies in.

BubblyBoar
Aug 24, 2014, 07:58 PM
I think Sega has been trying to help with the Zondeel situation, but not doing it right. I mean, they gave us Ilzan, Chaos Riser, and Gravity Bomb. It's just that none of them are better than Zondeel.

WildarmsRE5
Aug 24, 2014, 08:08 PM
uh, Chaos Rizer does have (or atleast close enough) the same amount of suction range if its used with full DS Gear.

Gardios
Aug 24, 2014, 08:12 PM
They should just give us this and leave Zondeel the way it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hKkzKs2Fg#t=1m32s
(the knock up and dispersion directly afterwards is another skill)

UnLucky
Aug 24, 2014, 08:35 PM
uh, Chaos Rizer does have (or atleast close enough) the same amount of suction range if its used with full DS Gear.

Well definitely not compared to Territory Burst, and it consumes Gear, so no it's not as good.

Even ignoring TB, how is "uh it's kinda close if you have full gear" a good response to "it's not better than Zondeel"?

Freshellent
Aug 24, 2014, 08:47 PM
I'm uh, really aroused by all of this.

WildarmsRE5
Aug 24, 2014, 08:59 PM
Well definitely not compared to Territory Burst, and it consumes Gear, so no it's not as good.

Even ignoring TB, how is "uh it's kinda close if you have full gear" a good response to "it's not better than Zondeel"?if they gave it good damage. . .

and it does not. . .

if it did have the same range as TB Zondeel, it'll be good since DS gear charges like one Tornado Dance on that sucked mob.

Aine
Aug 24, 2014, 11:44 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big

NoiseHERO
Aug 24, 2014, 11:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big



man that's like looking at a giant math problem, knowing you can figure it out if you go through it patiently and figure out what you're looking at. But your brain just saying "fuck that shit" the second it see's a giant texture made of numbers.

edit: /added quote to avoid "last post on the page goes unread syndrome"

n_n
Aug 25, 2014, 12:00 AM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big
Thank you for this!

SakoHaruo
Aug 25, 2014, 12:05 AM
Old Damage | New Damage | Increase (red)/Decrease(blue) Old PP | New PP | Increase(blue)/Drecrease(red)

Sword...........Daggers

WL................Dub Saber

Partisan.........Knuckles

Gunslash........AR

Katana...........Launcher

Bow...............TMG


Tech have their corresponding color

Zyrusticae
Aug 25, 2014, 12:26 AM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big
This is extremely helpful.

So Ilmegid and Ilbarta indeed got nerfed - in the case of Ilbarta, a sizable nerf at that (0.7, or 30% less damage)!

I still wish megid got a bigger buff, but then, I still don't know if it got a tracking or speed buff, so I guess I'll wait and see on that.

But man, those hunter buffs are hilarious. 4x multipliers! Ridiculous! Gonna be crazy to see how they play after the patch is released...

oratank
Aug 25, 2014, 12:34 AM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big

il grant 255(1147) → 874 0.8

i wonder what meaning of this where did he get 1147 from

Stickboy
Aug 25, 2014, 01:25 AM
il grant 255(1147) → 874 0.8

i wonder what meaning of this where did he get 1147 from

total charged projectile number?

UnLucky
Aug 25, 2014, 01:40 AM
Wait, so Impact Slider, which was already way better than Parallel Slider, got a bigger boost?

Z-0
Aug 25, 2014, 01:44 AM
So in other words, RA and FO are still gonna be king (Homing Emission, Impact Slider, Cluster Bullet, Additional Bullet, Thrillsplode, Aiming Shot buffs, along with every important FO technique getting buffed, apart from Ilbarta, which is getting a nerf), while everybody else can suck it.

PAs might be getting huge power buffs, but they are still going to be useless in comparison, because PAs are useless because of their mechanics, not because of their damage.

UnLucky
Aug 25, 2014, 01:49 AM
Also that chart totally missed the fact that Sabarta is weaker than the power notation implies, so it should be listed as 544(408). If it truly becomes 780 then it's a 1.9x boost and not just 1.4x like it shows there.

Edit: Guess I should add that even nerfed Ilbarta is pushing out a combined power of 8670 after 7 casts. Compare that to Namegid's 3239 in a single 6 second cast. So 2.7x damage for 2.9x the PP cost in 1.2x the time. Yes it was absolutely broken before, but is this balance?

NoiseHERO
Aug 25, 2014, 02:36 AM
PAs might be getting huge power buffs, but they are still going to be useless in comparison, because PAs are useless because of their mechanics, not because of their damage.

See this is also where I'm curious.

We're seeing damage boosts, and we're told about attack speed and range buffs.

But for some PAs that I'm too sleepy to think of, it'll take more than those things to make them viable.

edit: anyway it looks like for the melee weapons I cared about, my initial hype wasn't completely mislead if this is actually more accurate.







ugh I just said hype related to PSO2, I really am on team stolckholm...

Walkure
Aug 25, 2014, 06:08 AM
How fast is Flicker Jab again? I remember it being really fast, even compared to Backhand Smash, but being really limited by the abysmal damage while having a high PP cost. It seriously had LESS Damage per PP spent than Backhand Smash, as well as way less damage over time.

Flicker Jab might now actually be better than Backhand Smash in terms of spamming for Damage/Time. It'd only need to have a ~22% shorter animation than BHS to meet that. It's now suddenly screaming ahead in Damage per PP spent (73% more bang for your buck). It's also easier to use, can hit multiple enemies if they're close enough, and seems like it'd pretty handy for utilizing Tech Arts JA Bonus since it's fast and cheap.

Pretty sure it just replaced Backhand Smash for any usage aside from flinging Rappies all over the place.

GHNeko
Aug 25, 2014, 06:21 AM
Zondeel x Flicker Jab.

The GETOVERHERE is all too real.

kabutozero
Aug 25, 2014, 07:13 AM
PAs might be getting huge power buffs, but they are still going to be useless in comparison, because PAs are useless because of their mechanics, not because of their damage.


"Adjusting PAs and Technics in various ways. Using level 16 as reference, they revised the power levels through Level 1 ~ 15" , makes me think various ways doesn't necessarily mean power and /or speed , and those changes won't be able to be seen before patch is up

gigawuts
Aug 25, 2014, 07:45 AM
PAs might be getting huge power buffs, but they are still going to be useless in comparison, because PAs are useless because of their mechanics, not because of their damage.

Thank you. HU PAs needed technical changes, not mere damage changes (maybe both, but I'd rather have left damage alone and gotten to see some mechanics tweaks).

That said, if you boost anything's damage enough it'll be used. Sega knows this, and they're banking on it. It's how they've always balanced things, since PSU.

HeyItsTHK
Aug 25, 2014, 08:02 AM
Supposedly the changes don't come in just the form of power, but those are words. Won't know until seen.

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 08:23 AM
They said they're increasing animation speeds and ranges on some or most of the melee PAs as well. It's hard to tell how significant it is for hunter weapons from the trailers though, since all they ever seem to want to use is nova strike (it definitely looks like it has a bigger AoE though)

Rien
Aug 25, 2014, 10:39 AM
I have a feeling these aren't actually buffs.

It's more like the PA power % now considers how many hits the PA does.

They said they were nerfing satcan, so 4k power makes no sense unless what I said is true.

That also means for multiple hit PAs... ESPECIALLY multiple hit PAs, they don't really have that much a power increase.

edit: then again I didn't read the first page so apparently I'm not the only one to notice this

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 10:52 AM
I have a feeling these aren't actually buffs.

It's more like the PA power % now considers how many hits the PA does.

They said they were nerfing satcan, so 4k power makes no sense unless what I said is true.

That also means for multiple hit PAs... ESPECIALLY multiple hit PAs, they don't really have that much a power increase.

edit: then again I didn't read the first page so apparently I'm not the only one to notice thisThere ARE buffs, it's just that for some PAs and techs the buffs aren't as dramatic as they look. Il Megid and Il Grants for instance show higher multipliers even though their damage is lower.

Gardios
Aug 25, 2014, 11:18 AM
Oh snap, I didn't notice that they raised Ra Grants's PP consumption by 10...

I-I still love you Ra Grants... probably...

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 11:22 AM
Oh snap, I didn't notice that they raised Ra Grants's PP consumption by 10...

I-I still love you Ra Grants... probably...If it really is getting 2.3x damage then I think a 50% pp increase is fair.

UnLucky
Aug 25, 2014, 11:30 AM
Not if it still has terrible range and an activation period that makes hitting moving targets impossible.

gigawuts
Aug 25, 2014, 11:32 AM
Not if it still has terrible range and an activation period that makes hitting moving targets impossible.

It's the activation period and misleading graphic that bothered me. If its model matched its hitbox and it hit immediately on cast it would be fine IMO.

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 11:33 AM
Not if it still has terrible range and an activation period that makes hitting moving targets impossible.... Are you thinking of Ragrants? The range on Gigrants is huge. ._.

UnLucky
Aug 25, 2014, 11:54 AM
Er, yeah, Ragrants, the giant looking laser that doesn't reach half as far as the visual effect, and the tech that's getting 2.3x stronger yet a higher PP cost.

Gigrants is only getting a small boost. And all the light techs will still take 1.2s to charge besides the pinpoint laser.

Gardios
Aug 25, 2014, 12:03 PM
I usually use Ra Grants point blank to dump my PP quickly, so the range or delay has never bothered me. Would be pretty nice if they fixed it so I could use it more liberally though (and I kinda doubt using it in melee range was how they intended it to be used anyway).

NoiseHERO
Aug 25, 2014, 12:05 PM
put some over powered tracking on that shit

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 12:07 PM
No, I see now. I'm dumb. 3:

I honestly think people give ragrants a lot of shit simply on account of using it at the wrong times though.

UnLucky
Aug 25, 2014, 12:13 PM
Well Nagrants is going to be pretty ridiculous now with that huge power upgrade AND costing 20 less PP.

I don't see why you'd use anything but that and Ilgrants, to be honest.

Arksenth
Aug 25, 2014, 12:14 PM
I usually use Ra Grants point blank to dump my PP quickly, so the range or delay has never bothered me. Would be pretty nice if they fixed it so I could use it more liberally though (and I kinda doubt using it in melee range was how they intended it to be used anyway).

To be honest, I'm wondering if they're buffing it that much because it's meant to be used as a melee tech - same deal for Nazan, which is the only tech that's also getting a 2.3 fold increase.

Maybe this is their way of giving Melee TE a bone.

:-?

Rien
Aug 25, 2014, 12:28 PM
considering I'm going to be customizing towards 1 technic in every element with the fastest cast time for jet boot element switching, I don't mind the power or pp change.

As long as the charge time stays constant...

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 12:32 PM
considering I'm going to be customizing towards 1 technic in every element with the fastest cast time for jet boot element switching, I don't mind the power or pp change.

As long as the charge time stays constant...Personally, I'd go for something with good range and that always, or at least reliably, hits rather than whatever has the fastest charge time.

moorebounce
Aug 25, 2014, 05:50 PM
Well it looks like they're trying to make being a hunter/fighter useful again. It's nice and all that the hunter/fighter classes got some love but IMO it's still not enough. Anybody with ranged attacks/techs needs their HP to be low enough to make them stay at a distance. We all know Sega messed that up. Plus their attack power needs to be low enough that they can't kill everything before a hunter can do their job. One thing Sega might want to look into is making hunter and fighters the fastest moving classes too. Until then the hunter and fighters will still be on the bottom.

HeyItsTHK
Aug 25, 2014, 06:10 PM
Well it looks like they're trying to make being a hunter/fighter useful again. It's nice and all that the hunter/fighter classes got some love but IMO it's still not enough. Anybody with ranged attacks/techs needs their HP to be low enough to make them stay at a distance. We all know Sega messed that up. Plus their attack power needs to be low enough that they can't kill everything before a hunter can do their job. One thing Sega might want to look into is making hunter and fighters the fastest moving classes too. Until then the hunter and fighters will still be on the bottom.

Melees can handle difficult stuff just fine (and by difficult I mean Mothership, Loser and TD2 and 3)

I mean heck I JUST cleaned house with hunter/fighter on a TD2 and I don't use swords. And they're addressing (hopefully executed well) the main problems with hunter and fighter. Outside of that, they're fine. What more do you want?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1123065/Reactionary/bugswtf.png

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 06:14 PM
Melees can handle difficult stuff just fine (and by difficult I mean Mothership, Loser and TD2 and 3)

I mean heck I JUST cleaned house with hunter/fighter on a TD2 and I don't use swords. And they're addressing (hopefully executed well) the main problems with hunter and fighter. Outside of that, they're fine. What more do you want?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1123065/Reactionary/bugswtf.pngI think he's talking about MPA roaming. That's where melee classes really lack. Forces and rangers just wreck everything from the other side of the quadrant before the melee classes can get there unless they're already way in front (which IS an option I guess). Except maybe Braver...

Walkure
Aug 25, 2014, 07:07 PM
Moving ahead of the pack isn't even a good option in PSE Bursts and AQs since you ruin spawns that way. Or in TD since lolNorthernHeros (then again HU and FI just might be able to do something aside from cleanup there now).


So I guess there's still TA, XQs, and boss-farming EQs. Even then, FO and RA are extremely useful in most/all of those soooo...

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 07:15 PM
Moving ahead of the pack isn't even a good option in PSE Bursts and AQs since you ruin spawns that way. Or in TD since lolNorthernHeros (then again HU and FI just might be able to do something aside from cleanup there now).


So I guess there's still TA, XQs, and boss-farming EQs. Even then, FO and RA are extremely useful in most/all of those soooo...In PSE bursts you're close enough to use approach and AoE PAs, Wired lances, or whatever, you don't need to go anywhere. Mobs spawn for players about 1-2 quadrents away so I dunno how making sure you're first in line would ruin that. I meant running ahead so you're in front and have time to use an apporach, not leaving the MPA behind and exploring the other side of the map or something. I see bravers do it all the time.

Also I said it was an option, not that it was necessarily a good one, hence the "I guess".

Z-0
Aug 25, 2014, 07:51 PM
Supposedly the changes don't come in just the form of power, but those are words. Won't know until seen.
They should really just use Nova's PAs for Hunter.

For example, Nova Strike and Rising Edge have no charge at all and do their level 3 version, and Nova Strike also moves you forward so you're not limited by its range either.

Didn't play very much so don't remember many other changes. I remember being able to JA off Dive Roll though.

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 07:55 PM
For example, Nova Strike and Rising Edge have no charge at all and do their level 3 version, and Nova Strike also moves you forward so you're not limited by its range either.What would the gear do for them though? Like I'm not disagreeing, I actually think hunter needs less charged PAs, but I dunno what it would do other than more damage, which is pretty boring.

NoiseHERO
Aug 25, 2014, 07:57 PM
I think he's talking about MPA roaming. That's where melee classes really lack. Forces and rangers just wreck everything from the other side of the quadrant before the melee classes can get there unless they're already way in front (which IS an option I guess). Except maybe Braver...

I'm totally cool letting a bunch of people do all the work for me if they insist on getting to the monsters first, at least till there's a crossburst.

Shiyo
Aug 25, 2014, 08:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that big

No one can read that.

English translation please?

gigawuts
Aug 25, 2014, 08:10 PM
No one can read that.

English translation please?

How can one translate that which no one can read?

Lostbob117
Aug 25, 2014, 08:11 PM
No one can read that.

English translation please?

You could just look at the names jp and english(from somewhere like Cirnopedia) and figure it out quite easily actually.

WildarmsRE5
Aug 25, 2014, 08:21 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg

somebody did the comparisons using the actual multipliers
most of the hunter PA buffs are really that bighttp://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9e/9e5394bfd2d53d0509e3be90d309e37e0339b62343f55931b7 c8b40f69198082.jpg

Xaelouse
Aug 25, 2014, 08:44 PM
Well it looks like they're trying to make being a hunter/fighter useful again. It's nice and all that the hunter/fighter classes got some love but IMO it's still not enough. Anybody with ranged attacks/techs needs their HP to be low enough to make them stay at a distance. We all know Sega messed that up. Plus their attack power needs to be low enough that they can't kill everything before a hunter can do their job. One thing Sega might want to look into is making hunter and fighters the fastest moving classes too. Until then the hunter and fighters will still be on the bottom.

Ranged class aren't that big of a threat to melee classes if you're using the right PAs in the right situation and you're not set to auto-run.
For instance guilty break becoming 20 PP is particularly huge for sword, making it the best gap closer in the game. I guarantee you if you're in range for charged guilty break to land, you'll kill trash faster than the ranged classes but with less AOE. Unfortunately, that requires some upkeep with gear and the PA has a stopping point.
Besides that, with the PSE burst situation, there are wired lance/partizan/knuckle PAs that have been proven to be useful Kaiser Rise is even more cheaper, spammy, and got strong enough to get more one-shots in on trash. Same for sacred skewer, even though that totally should had became 25 pp but but oh well.
What I'm saying is: while yes the ranged classes do what they do better, that doesnt mean melee classes are a complete slouch all the time and it's on you as a player if you allow that or not. Although it's kinda sad that this game is all about competing for who kills what the fastest instead of supporting each other.

Shiyo
Aug 25, 2014, 09:06 PM
So in other words, RA and FO are still gonna be king (Homing Emission, Impact Slider, Cluster Bullet, Additional Bullet, Thrillsplode, Aiming Shot buffs, along with every important FO technique getting buffed, apart from Ilbarta, which is getting a nerf), while everybody else can suck it.

PAs might be getting huge power buffs, but they are still going to be useless in comparison, because PAs are useless because of their mechanics, not because of their damage.


Melee classes need to have 10-30% faster movement speed than ranged and should do 30-50% more damage than ranged.

Only way to balance face rolling ranged.

Laxedrane
Aug 25, 2014, 09:19 PM
Melee classes need to have 10-30% faster movement speed than ranged and should do 30-50% more damage than ranged.

Only way to balance face rolling ranged.

Or they could just make it so mobs don't die 1-5 seconds after an MPA death train finds them?

Gardios
Aug 25, 2014, 09:19 PM
How can one translate that which no one can read?
Don't worry, I've managed to decipher it. Hopefully everyone can read my translation.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/KtPo6cc.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

bokbokyolo
Aug 25, 2014, 09:21 PM
No one can read that.

English translation please?

Here's my attempt, my japanese is pretty basic sorry there also might be some mistakes with the numbers please let me know if you find any

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/YCppEGp.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

Shiyo
Aug 25, 2014, 09:26 PM
Thanks! You're the best <3

GALEFORCE
Aug 25, 2014, 09:28 PM
Don't worry, I've managed to decipher it. Hopefully everyone can read my translation.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/KtPo6cc.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Rodeofart??

Gardios
Aug 25, 2014, 09:34 PM
Rodeofart??
Biological warfare.

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 09:35 PM
Melee classes need to have 10-30% faster movement speed than ranged and should do 30-50% more damage than ranged.

Only way to balance face rolling ranged.How would making melee classes run faster help? ._.

Shiyo
Aug 25, 2014, 09:48 PM
How would making melee classes run faster help? ._.

How wouldn't it? You move faster, you get to enemies faster so you can actually hit them before some ranged class rolls their face on their keyboard.

You need to be in melee range, you should have vastly better mobility.

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2014, 09:52 PM
How wouldn't it? You move faster, you get to enemies faster so you can actually hit them before some ranged class rolls their face on their keyboard.

You need to be in melee range, you should have vastly better mobility.Yeah but increasing the normal movement speed? I actually prefer the idea of some sort of step dash on melee weapons. it could be like a step attack but with much more range, maybe cost a small amount of PP (5-10) and not do much damage but give you an approach option that doesn't rely on having a specific PA slotted and (this is important for certain weapons) doesn't need to be charged or have a long attacking animation you need to cancel when you get there.

cheapgunner
Aug 25, 2014, 10:16 PM
Make it a default skill where the step of a melee user while equipped with a melee wep is extended further. Main Hu/Fi skill only

Problem solved. Hunter and fighter subbed classes like Ra/Hu, Gu/Hu and several others can't capitalize on it to spam close ranged/tech pas and hunters and fighters get more bang for their buck. The only thing I would add besides this is to give hunter and fighter mains have a buff in their HP since they are the "in-your-face" classes that need a bit more survival.

Rayden
Aug 26, 2014, 12:06 AM
You need to be in melee range, you should have vastly better mobility.
Yeah but increasing the normal movement speed? I actually prefer the idea of some sort of step dash on melee weapons.

This is why I'm actually worried about the movement speed increase coming with Episode 3. While everyone else seems perfectly happy with it, I'm worried about how the various dashing methods might become useless. Everyone has some way of dashing, but most players don't seem to bother. That means that I can use those dashing methods to get ahead as a melee class and attack things before they die. With the movement speed increase to everybody, that ability will go straight out the window, and I imagine it'll be much more difficult to catch up to enemies before others, and it'll also be much easier to fall behind the rest of the group when using stationary attacks.

GHNeko
Aug 26, 2014, 12:28 AM
Dashing depends on latency. That's already inherently bad in my books.

That being said, unless I'm mistaken, dashing is still going to be useful in the short term because the new movement speed is during non-battle movement.

You're inherently going to be slower while in a battle state, so dashing will retain superiority for short term bursts of speed mid battle.

But for general moving around the map? Nah. Dashing shouldnt reign supreme. That'd be like require me to wavedash all the time in Melee.

silly.


Don't worry, I've managed to decipher it. Hopefully everyone can read my translation.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/KtPo6cc.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

I love you.

NoiseHERO
Aug 26, 2014, 12:30 AM
uh yeah, I like my i-frames and right now max step looking more promising than break stance.

MegiForce
Aug 26, 2014, 12:53 AM
Melee classes need to have 10-30% faster movement speed than ranged and should do 30-50% more damage than ranged.

Only way to balance face rolling ranged.


Because carrying around a giant-ass sword makes you run faster than carrying TMG's? Then again, there's no perfect logic in a videogame. Also, Sega is pushing more of a tank-vibe for hunters, which tanks are generally for longer, drawn-out battles (like bossing), not playing whack-a-mole with quick, spawning mobs. Plus, melee classes have that high PA increase and faster animations to compensate for the fact that they need get up-close and be on the front line.

UnLucky
Aug 26, 2014, 12:58 AM
Dashing its still going to be the fastest since there's no way walking is going to beat travel PAs which will obviously put you into combat mode. Moving from one spawn to the next is going to be the exact same as before since lazy players will still have to sheath their weapons first.

Kikikiki
Aug 26, 2014, 01:09 AM
But at least I can truly sleep through TAs now with GM without staying meters behind.

GHNeko
Aug 26, 2014, 01:39 AM
Dashing its still going to be the fastest since there's no way walking is going to beat travel PAs which will obviously put you into combat mode. Moving from one spawn to the next is going to be the exact same as before since lazy players will still have to sheath their weapons first.

Hey. Hey.

Hey.

HEY.

I'm not lazy.

I just dont play PSO2 to press half as many buttons as I would in Melee.

Shiyo
Aug 26, 2014, 02:45 AM
uh yeah, I like my i-frames and right now max step looking more promising than break stance.

Truly impressive how bad the BO tree is when people consider step advance over a stance.

UnLucky
Aug 26, 2014, 03:38 AM
No room in my world for Step Advance (http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/beta/08/v2/skillcalc.php?08bNbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIk 0jdodBIb00000000jdoIn0000008doib0000006do000000lo0 0000007oIn0000000lbIo000000fdobok2JfbrArFbsrA00008 )

MegiForce
Aug 26, 2014, 03:49 AM
I had the impression that Rapid Boost was for jet boots only. If that's true, that would be an extra 10 sp for you, enough for step advance.

UnLucky
Aug 26, 2014, 04:03 AM
It could be like Katana Combat and Rapid Shoot, since Photon Blade Fever is probably not gonna work for boots.

But Craft Mastery could also be good (I'm trying not to laugh).

Honestly I'd consider maxing Rare Mastery at that point, though.

NoiseHERO
Aug 26, 2014, 04:10 AM
Yeah I'm goin' pure jetboots and I can't stand getting hit by attacks mid dodge lag or bad timing or whatever. If I press the dodge button I don't want no bullshit. D<

But I haven't added everything up I prolly have enough SP for mehstance, just plan on getting it last, if ever.

Will eat my own fro if it's somehow good tho.

Z-0
Aug 26, 2014, 06:58 AM
Hey. Hey.

Hey.

HEY.

I'm not lazy.

I just dont play PSO2 to press half as many buttons as I would in Melee.
But you don't even press that many buttons. Apart from the stepping and jumping, you press like 2 other buttons to perform a penta-dash.

You make it sound like it takes a huge amount of effort. I do steps on my pad, and all I do is press L3 before I press X and R2 (jump and step, respectively) in sequence for 4 steps (L3 and select for 5 steps).

Also, stepping will always be the superior option. It will be most likely that the increased running speed cannot keep up with 5 steps, since the increased running speed has an acceleration, from walking, running and fast running. That also being said, 5 steps is probably faster as the running speed was most likely designed to keep up with 4 steps, and 5 step method was discovered very recently (sadly, it's easier than 4 steps).

gigawuts
Aug 26, 2014, 08:25 AM
Dashing its still going to be the fastest since there's no way walking is going to beat travel PAs which will obviously put you into combat mode. Moving from one spawn to the next is going to be the exact same as before since lazy players will still have to sheath their weapons first.

This is why there needs to be a modification to step itself on melee skilltrees.

Cheapgunner's idea would work easily enough. A mainclass-exclusive skill that lengthens step distance by, I dunno, let's say 50%.

Or actually, to combine my old hold-step-for-run idea with incoming changes, a mainclass-exclusive skill that lets you hold the step button to directly enter the running animation, no sheathing required. You can release the button any time after that. Put it on hunter and fighter for now.

edit: Even better if it gives some kind of a boost to the next attack.

Kondibon
Aug 26, 2014, 08:34 AM
This is why there needs to be a modification to step itself on melee skilltrees.

Cheapgunner's idea would work easily enough. A mainclass-exclusive skill that lengthens step distance by, I dunno, let's say 50%.

Or actually, to combine my old hold-step-for-run idea with incoming changes, a mainclass-exclusive skill that lets you hold the step button to directly enter the running animation, no sheathing required. You can release the button any time after that. Put it on hunter and fighter for now.

edit: Even better if it gives some kind of a boost to the next attack.Let's just combine everything!

A skill that increases step distance, a step attack that doubles as an approach, sprinting, and for good measure throw in higher jumps and better mid air stepping, because if Kingdom Hearts taught me anything it's that aerial melee combat sucks without any mid air mobility. >_>

GHNeko
Aug 26, 2014, 08:35 AM
But you don't even press that many buttons. Apart from the stepping and jumping, you press like 2 other buttons to perform a penta-dash.

You make it sound like it takes a huge amount of effort. I do steps on my pad, and all I do is press L3 before I press X and R2 (jump and step, respectively) in sequence for 4 steps (L3 and select for 5 steps).

Also, stepping will always be the superior option. It will be most likely that the increased running speed cannot keep up with 5 steps, since the increased running speed has an acceleration, from walking, running and fast running. That also being said, 5 steps is probably faster as the running speed was most likely designed to keep up with 4 steps, and 5 step method was discovered very recently (sadly, it's easier than 4 steps).


I was exaggerating loooooooooooool.

I know it doesnt take a lot of effort. I dont know how you get the impression I was implying otherwise.

I just said I dont want to press bunch of buttons just to move fast.

I press enough buttons when playing Melee in tournaments and I churn enough butter in muh fighters.

I prefer my ARPGs without a lot of button presses for simple actions looool.

Hexxy
Aug 26, 2014, 08:50 AM
uh yeah, I like my i-frames and right now max step looking more promising than break stance.

It's even better if you use two classes with step. 3 points in one, and 2 points in the other = max step. I do this on my br/hu (3br for snatch step, 2hu) and it saves a ton of points while giving you max iframes. But hell even before I knew this I had step 10 on hunter. It has probably saved my life a lot more than any other skill in the game.

Xaelouse
Aug 26, 2014, 08:58 AM
Your step will still be at 3 points, not max. It'll only be max if one of them is at 10 points
On the plus side, if it's been working out for you that means you dont at all need step at max points

gigawuts
Aug 26, 2014, 08:58 AM
Let's just combine everything!

A skill that increases step distance, a step attack that doubles as an approach, sprinting, and for good measure throw in higher jumps and better mid air stepping, because if Kingdom Hearts taught me anything it's that aerial melee combat sucks without any mid air mobility. >_>

They're spelled "daggers."

Kondibon
Aug 26, 2014, 09:04 AM
They're spelled "daggers."I was specifically referring to how in KH (particularly 2) you eventually gain abilities make aerial combat go from being clunky and dangerous to the best way to fight. The game has lots of ways to air combos from the ground, and move between or stick to enemies that get too far from you.

What I should have said was kingdom hearts showed me how I think it should be done, to some degree, in PSO2.

On the other hand Kingdom Hearts II had a context based combo system so... :/

Daiyousei
Aug 26, 2014, 09:09 AM
Soon with the dual blades and jet boots you'll have your air mobility

Kondibon
Aug 26, 2014, 09:11 AM
Soon with the dual blades and jet boots you'll have your air mobilityIt's all PA based though. 3: Normal attacks in the air should push you forward a little bit if you're too far instead of making you stuck in one spot.

Also Dual Blades and Jet Boots are only 2 weapons.

gigawuts
Aug 26, 2014, 09:21 AM
I still don't understand why they didn't call them Twin Blades. We have Twin Machineguns and Twin Daggers, but when it comes to two blades you hold in each hand they call them Dual Blades?

Kondibon
Aug 26, 2014, 09:29 AM
I still don't understand why they didn't call them Twin Blades. We have Twin Machineguns and Twin Daggers, but when it comes to two blades you hold in each hand they call them Dual Blades?The world may never know.

Remz69
Aug 26, 2014, 11:47 AM
I still don't understand why they didn't call them Twin Blades. We have Twin Machineguns and Twin Daggers, but when it comes to two blades you hold in each hand they call them Dual Blades?


maybe they plan on having cool graphic designs where the 2 blades don't look the same

Sanguine2009
Aug 26, 2014, 12:03 PM
maybe they plan on having cool graphic designs where the 2 blades don't look the same

they did that in the past and still called them twin sabers

Cypher_9
Aug 26, 2014, 12:16 PM
Dual Blade is fine with me - perhaps its just to prevent the use of using "Twin" again since it is already used twice. I look forward to the Musashi/ Yamato/ Asuka being reintroduced again... perhaps Sange & Yasha with HP steal....

HeyItsTHK
Aug 26, 2014, 01:10 PM
It would be neat. Sange and Yasha are already separate katanas, but they could join once again for Twins.

Chacron
Aug 26, 2014, 01:15 PM
It would be neat. Sange and Yasha are already separate katanas, but they could join once again for Twins.

Thats what I was thinking as soon as they were announced. Wonder how they would go about doing that if that was the case.

IndigoNovember
Aug 26, 2014, 02:00 PM
Thats what I was thinking as soon as they were announced. Wonder how they would go about doing that if that was the case.

It could work as a new Stone Shop feature. We already have to trade in weapons for other weapons at the moment.

Achelousaurus
Aug 26, 2014, 03:54 PM
Yeah but increasing the normal movement speed? I actually prefer the idea of some sort of step dash on melee weapons. it could be like a step attack but with much more range, maybe cost a small amount of PP (5-10) and not do much damage but give you an approach option that doesn't rely on having a specific PA slotted and (this is important for certain weapons) doesn't need to be charged or have a long attacking animation you need to cancel when you get there.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/f8a92f3938525e841f863d92a7ebe500.gif
MPA Deathtrain or even single party range / casting kills stuff before melee can even hit once on a regular basis.
Either seriously nerf ranged / casting damage, force tiny rooms like in PSO1 to negate most of the range advantage and turn long range into short-mid range or allow melee to start killing before ranged / casting roflstomp everything.


Truly impressive how bad the BO tree is when people consider step advance over a stance.
http://images.lazygamer.net/2013/07/sad-but-true.jpg


No room in my world for Step Advance (http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/beta/08/v2/skillcalc.php?08bNbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIkbsIk 0jdodBIb00000000jdoIn0000008doib0000006do000000lo0 0000007oIn0000000lbIo000000fdobok2JfbrArFbsrA00008 )
I don't need any vpn or stuff besides tweaker to connect, but I still have very frequent lag.
I really need maxed Step Advance to counter it.


Yeah I'm goin' pure jetboots and I can't stand getting hit by attacks mid dodge lag or bad timing or whatever. If I press the dodge button I don't want no bullshit. D<

But I haven't added everything up I prolly have enough SP for mehstance, just plan on getting it last, if ever.

Will eat my own fro if it's somehow good tho.
I assume Bouncer is gonna be like braver, basically 2 different fighting styles that don't even intersect.
So I will get a Jet Boots tree to use with with force / techer and a Twin Saber tree to go with melee classes (well, Hunter mostly).


Let's just combine everything!

A skill that increases step distance, a step attack that doubles as an approach, sprinting, and for good measure throw in higher jumps and better mid air stepping, because if Kingdom Hearts taught me anything it's that aerial melee combat sucks without any mid air mobility. >_>
And don't forget that Dagger Weapon Action must now have ja exactly at its peak so you gain and don't lose height when using it.


they did that in the past and still called them twin sabers
Speaking of which, I DEMAND Shouren and Guren!
...and while they're at it, might as well give use Jizai, too.
And maybe even Sange & Yasha
...I also miss that cool combine / use sound from PSO1.

Kondibon
Aug 26, 2014, 04:07 PM
And don't forget that Dagger Weapon Action must now have ja exactly at its peak so you gain and don't lose height when using it.
Oh right, I knew there was something I forgot. The hang time for like... everything needs to be increased.

Shiyo
Aug 26, 2014, 04:13 PM
Either seriously nerf ranged / casting damage, force tiny rooms like in PSO1 to negate most of the range advantage and turn long range into short-mid range or allow melee to start killing before ranged / casting roflstomp everything.


Honestly I don't even care if face roll ranged is better at killing trash than me or kills everything before I get there.

What I want is to stop being FORCED to play with ranged classes because any difficult/relevant content is locked behind 12 man EQ's.

Give me more 4 man content I can duo that's actually rewarding and challenging.

Remz69
Aug 26, 2014, 04:29 PM
I don't need any vpn or stuff besides tweaker to connect, but I still have very frequent lag.
I really need maxed Step Advance to counter it.

pretty sure hit detection is client side

n_n
Aug 26, 2014, 05:39 PM
pretty sure hit detection is client side
Correct.