PDA

View Full Version : Guld Milla Latent - How much would you nerf it by?



GALEFORCE
Sep 3, 2014, 12:56 PM
I think Guld Milla was chiefly responsible for Gu/Hu being overpowered towards the end of ep2. Being able to put out consistent damage without needing to dodge made it pretty ridiculous, and it made other TMGs obsolete for the most part. I think this was the main aspect of gunner that needed to be balanced for ep3.

So then comes the question: How much is enough? I currently recover about 100 hp per body shot of elder rebellion, so I recover more than 1000 HP per use of ER, not including potential headshots or AoE damage from the last few bursts. I'm honestly not sure how much it should be tweaked to balance it out. Even at 50% it would be significant enough to tank bosses with assuming Messiah gets a respectable buff.

The Walrus
Sep 3, 2014, 12:57 PM
Just alter when it takes effect. Problem solved.

gigawuts
Sep 3, 2014, 01:03 PM
Just alter when it takes effect. Problem solved.

This.

So long as it heals you merely for hitting a target, any target, it will be broken - either too strong, or too weak.

Derp had a good idea there: Make it only work during chain finish. Personally, I'd rather see it work during both chain counting and chain finish, but tying it to a cooldown is a good idea. Only working during Showtime would also be acceptable.

horseship
Sep 3, 2014, 01:03 PM
Even if they nerf the latent to 1/2/3%, it's still going to be just as good as it used to be. I never had trouble staying at full health with only a +20 GM with my not even capped GU/HU. If they really wanted to nerf it, they'd grant the health bonus on kills or something, essentially rendering it useless. Anyone think Elder Pain will also get nerfed?

GALEFORCE
Sep 3, 2014, 01:04 PM
Just alter when it takes effect. Problem solved.

Like a delay? Because that wouldn't change anything. You'd be doing damage before you get hit anyway, so the blue numbers would catch up to you either way.

If you mean make it conditional, then that raises other questions, like how. I guess headshot only could work, but I think it'd still need a nerf.


This.

So long as it heals you merely for hitting a target, any target, it will be broken - either too strong, or too weak.

Derp had a good idea there: Make it only work during chain finish. Personally, I'd rather see it work during both chain counting and chain finish, but tying it to a cooldown is a good idea. Only working during Showtime would also be acceptable.

I don't like the prospect of limiting it to very specific skill builds. Frankly, chain is annoying as hell to use, and always will be until they make it independent of its locked hitbox.


Even if they nerf the latent to 1/2/3%, it's still going to be just as good as it used to be. I never had trouble staying at full health with only a +20 GM with my not even capped GU/HU. If they really wanted to nerf it, they'd grant the health bonus on kills or something, essentially rendering it useless. Anyone think Elder Pain will also get nerfed?

I've never had an Elder Pain, so I can't say how good it is, but it is certainly weaker than most other swords, unlike GM. There's also the fact that TMGs hit rapidly, so GM provides reliable recovery, at range no less, while EP recovers at slower intervals. I will tentatively say that EP is fine.

DJcooltrainer
Sep 3, 2014, 01:06 PM
I like the idea of HP restoration on kill, actually. It would make it less insane for tanking through bosses. I wonder if it's going to cause the price of GM to drop at all, I haven't checked.

horseship
Sep 3, 2014, 01:08 PM
GM is already almost worthless. It's been around 200k for a while now. I think around 500k if you want light. It's just really common nowadays. I guess the nerf might make selling pre-affixed ones harder though.

DJcooltrainer
Sep 3, 2014, 01:09 PM
GM is already almost worthless. It's been around 200k for a while now. I think around 500k if you want light. It's just really common nowadays. I guess the nerf might make selling pre-affixed ones harder though.

Right, that's what I mean. Fully affixed/grinded prices are probably going to drop even further. Looks like I'll probably lose out on my investment, oh well.

pkemr4
Sep 3, 2014, 01:15 PM
its not that great for dps. i just keep one and have elder rebellion set as the pa's to heal me mid-air and then switch back to bio or batarang for sustained dps

GALEFORCE
Sep 3, 2014, 01:26 PM
Zero Effort was only better if you never got hit during boss encounters. The second you get nicked by anything, you're doing less than GM, especially if you have to go out of your way to heal yourself. GM just let you spam messiah time non-stop, which did respectable damage before the nerfbat it got in ep3. It was arguably the best sustained DPS for bosses. Bio was definitely better for general mobbing purposes.

Thinking about it more, showtime is a good idea. It fits with the purpose of the skill, which is to tank.

Shiyo
Sep 3, 2014, 01:27 PM
Needs a new latent entirely. Can't be balanced without basically not even having a latent(0.01% hp healed).

A good change would make it apply a HOT equal to the highest single hit you dealtl over 10 seconds refreshing every time you hit harder instead of instant healling.

HeyItsTHK
Sep 3, 2014, 01:37 PM
Normals only. No PAs.

Chdata
Sep 3, 2014, 01:50 PM
Needs a new latent entirely. Can't be balanced without basically not even having a latent(0.01% hp healed).

A good change would make it apply a HOT equal to the highest single hit you dealtl over 10 seconds refreshing every time you hit harder instead of instant healling.

I don't see how that's "not having a latent". Rather, that's one of various good solutions.

3/4/5% heal -> 0.15/0.2/0.25% heal

dmg = 5% -> 0.25%
2000 = 100 -> 5
6000 = 300 -> 15

Now the effect is useful, but not so much that you can tank everything without dodging.

You could also do something like, heal 5/10/15 hp on hit.

THRINE4
Sep 3, 2014, 01:53 PM
3% of total damage you deal every 10 seconds, heals you at the end of the 10 seconds. You'll be at full health every 10 secs, but hey, at least you're not invincible.

Chdata
Sep 3, 2014, 01:54 PM
3% of total damage you deal every 10 seconds, heals you at the end of the 10 seconds. You'll be at full health every 10 secs, but hey, at least you're not invincible.

I just think healing in bursts like this is aesthetically bad mechanic wise. Healing over time or actively is more spread out. I'd rather guld milla get Breath of Life.

Healing on kill is better too.

gigawuts
Sep 3, 2014, 01:58 PM
The problem with stealing HP from enemies is damage creep is always going to be a thing. Remember when it came out? Everyone scoffed at 5%, because we weren't doing five digits of damage with every PA (or even every bullet for a while there). Now we are, and we haven't had nearly that kind of growth in HP.

People might scoff at .25% now, but give it a year and I'll bet we'll be looking at high 6 digits of damage with only another 5-800 hp for our characters depending on the build - .25% starts looking good again doesn't it?

So that's not a solution.

Instead it should heal a % based on your HP. Let's say for the sake of argument that it's around 15% HP recovered per attack that deals damage.

Normals? 3 normals in a row -> 45% total HP recovered
One Messiah Time that hits one boss -> 15% total HP recovered
One Infinity Fire that kills five mobs -> 15% total HP recovered

Natsu Nem
Sep 3, 2014, 01:58 PM
Triggers a lifestealing effect when struck, converting a percentage of the wielder's damage dealt into health. Total healing cannot exceed the value of damage taken that triggered the effect. Can only occur once every 15/12/9 seconds.

Agastya
Sep 3, 2014, 02:21 PM
just give it narl crescent mechanics and call it a day

Sanguine2009
Sep 3, 2014, 02:24 PM
i cant see this getting balance properly. its either still gonna be broken or its gonna end up useless. theres really not a middle ground as long as it has the same latent.

Shiyo
Sep 3, 2014, 02:25 PM
The problem with stealing HP from enemies is damage creep is always going to be a thing. Remember when it came out? Everyone scoffed at 5%, because we weren't doing five digits of damage with every PA (or even every bullet for a while there). Now we are, and we haven't had nearly that kind of growth in HP.

People might scoff at .25% now, but give it a year and I'll bet we'll be looking at high 6 digits of damage with only another 5-800 hp for our characters depending on the build - .25% starts looking good again doesn't it?

So that's not a solution.

Instead it should heal a % based on your HP. Let's say for the sake of argument that it's around 15% HP recovered per attack that deals damage.

Normals? 3 normals in a row -> 45% total HP recovered
One Messiah Time that hits one boss -> 15% total HP recovered
One Infinity Fire that kills five mobs -> 15% total HP recovered
This is why I said it needs completely changed.

GALEFORCE
Sep 3, 2014, 02:27 PM
Well, I think 0.25% is going to be laughable for a while. To put it into perspective, that's a 97% nerf from the current heal amount.

There's a lot of good solutions here. Tying it to a percentage of your own hp is probably the best in the long-term though. I think SEGA is very likely to just trim the number and keep it working the way it does, but if they were being smart about it, this is what they would do.

Alas, I'm left wondering whether I should bother to affix my GMs or not while it's still boost week :-?

gigawuts
Sep 3, 2014, 02:57 PM
Having it heal you based on your level and/or the attack's damage modifier (now that they've been fixed a bit) instead of actual damage is also an option.

Merely having it based on the attack's damage modifier might not be that great in the long term, hence involving the level. However, the higher damage of higher level PAs might make up for that.

But that would become overly complicated for something meant to be explained in 2-3 lines under the latent's name in the affix window. So "Heals x% of your HP if an attack deals damage" sounds best, for its simplicity and futureproofity.

ReverseSeraf
Sep 4, 2014, 05:05 PM
I would just get rid of it entirely. Gunner has the best dodge in the game already.

But know that's not going to happen, yeah, healing when killing enemies might be the best option.

un1t27
Sep 4, 2014, 05:45 PM
Just get rid of it completely.

UnLucky
Sep 4, 2014, 06:37 PM
If it only works on normal attacks, would SRoll Arts finally be useful??

Chdata
Sep 4, 2014, 06:40 PM
Heal 3-5% max hp on hit.

Ignores damage.

gigawuts
Sep 4, 2014, 07:01 PM
If it only works on normal attacks, would SRoll Arts finally be useful??

3 2 1 braver's normal advance is nerfed

Kondibon
Sep 4, 2014, 07:08 PM
Heal 3-5% max hp on hit.

Ignores damage.Make that on crits or give it an internal cool down and that'd be fine. But if it's 3-5% hp on every hit then that'd make it even WORSE. Each normal attack would heal you for 15% of your hp. If you have around 800 hp thats 120 hp per attack. >_>

Chdata
Sep 4, 2014, 07:09 PM
Oh I miscalculated. I probably mean 0.5%. or 1.5-2.5%
Or maybe a max 1%

hoangsea
Sep 4, 2014, 07:20 PM
it should better 0.1/0.2/0.3
it's now too much for a RANGE stuff that can life leech

Lyrise
Sep 4, 2014, 08:37 PM
PSO2es does an interesting take on this with the Io chip which I find fair and could apply here. It heals you for 20% of your Max HP, but only activates at a 10-20% chance on a successful JA that connects with the enemy. (Per attack, not per hit)

Sure the numbers would need to be adjusted since 20% might be a bit high, but it's not enough to guarantee invincibility in a high pressure situation.

reaper527
Sep 5, 2014, 12:19 PM
Gunner has the best dodge in the game already.


you know that isn't true, because you have a L70 fo. there is no comparison between fo/te dodging and gu's dodge.

gu's dodge might be a lot better than the crap tha ra's have, but there's really nothing special about it when compared to any of the other classes.

GALEFORCE
Sep 5, 2014, 11:13 PM
Allow me to present somewhat of a counterargument for all this GM hate.

My Hu/Fi feels pretty much invincible thanks to automate halfline. I don't even need to be attacking to recover HP ad nauseam. Is automate halfline too powerful? I mean, it even protects you from most kill combos, unlike GM.

horseship
Sep 5, 2014, 11:56 PM
you know that isn't true, because you have a L70 fo. there is no comparison between fo/te dodging and gu's dodge.

gu's dodge might be a lot better than the crap tha ra's have, but there's really nothing special about it when compared to any of the other classes.

S-roll is leagues better than dive roll and step, and is arguably better than mirage escape in the sense that you can dodge, reposition, and start attacking immediately due to the free JA. Mirage escape has long invulnerability, but that's all it has really. Slow animation and long recovery period make it undesirable to use most of the time.

Rien
Sep 5, 2014, 11:57 PM
Allow me to present somewhat of a counterargument for all this GM hate.

My Hu/Fi feels pretty much invincible thanks to automate halfline. I don't even need to be attacking to recover HP ad nauseam. Is automate halfline too powerful? I mean, it even protects you from most kill combos, unlike GM.

But you only have 30 mates

GM is as long as you have PP and even without it normal attacks still heal you even if not for much

Simply make it heal on chance like lunar eclipse latent

Chdata
Sep 6, 2014, 12:36 AM
Allow me to present somewhat of a counterargument for all this GM hate.

My Hu/Fi feels pretty much invincible thanks to automate halfline. I don't even need to be attacking to recover HP ad nauseam. Is automate halfline too powerful? I mean, it even protects you from most kill combos, unlike GM.

I would say both are just as good, except with GM sometimes you can get locked into situations where you can't attack.

GALEFORCE
Sep 6, 2014, 01:31 AM
But you only have 30 mates

GM is as long as you have PP and even without it normal attacks still heal you even if not for much

Simply make it heal on chance like lunar eclipse latent

You really don't run out of mates unless you're playing super derp, or you're farming an MPA, in which case you can go back to the campship to restock every 30-ish minutes or whatever.

That said, I wouldn't mind heal on chance if the amount were the same.

Edit: Actually, I take that back. It introduces yet another RNG mechanic into this game's battle system, and I don't like that one bit.