Meteor Cudgel, Elysion nerfs incoming, Custom Technic nerfs clarified

[Aine]

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=4387

Meteor Cudgel itself isn't being nerfed, but there will limit placed on the number of whirlwinds you can have going at once (presumably they will still build gear).

Elysion's latent will be nerfed.

Additionally, the custom technics that will be nerfed in October are Ice Fang Nabarta and Umbral Namegid (the ones that boost damage).

The fact that they aren't touching fire technics shows they continue to have no grasp on the current balance...

[Ciel~Homura]

Well, first thanks for the notice.

For my opinion i don't think Elysion's latent need a nerf.

For now, this october guld milla will still roll and photon blade + jet boots boost buggy will still be around then.

[Maenara]

hahahahahaha

[Sizustar]

And what kind of nerf should fire tech get?
To pre Episode 3 damage?

[GHNeko]

whew @ umbral megid not being nerfed.

[Sp-24]

I'm still IP blocked on my cellphone. Are these all of the nerfs that they have planned? I remember Swiki saying that Sega's also going to work on Gunner skills in October.

Also, will they just nerf Elysion, or is Normal Tech Advance also getting buffed at last? I had to remake my character back in 2012 because of how useless that skill was and, I assume, still is.

[IndignationSWF]

Looks likd this won't affect my Spell loadout for Jet Boots too bad. Since I got my Dark Element Shinko Soashi grinded/extended only Dark techs I used regularly were Ilmegid and Megiverse.

Question I guess since it came up in the thread: What Fire Technics are powerful enough to be Nerfed?

[Kondibon]

Question I guess since it came up in the thread: What Fire Technics are powerful enough to be Nerfed?It's the crafts specifically people are talking about. I don't remember which techs specifically but a few are getting too much from being crafted.

At least that's what people are saying. I have no idea.

[IndignationSWF]

It's the crafts specifically people are talking about. I don't remember which techs specifically but a few are getting too much from being crafted.

At least that's what people are saying. I have no idea.

I see, I didn't realize crafting changed skills that much as to cause an issue. Good to know for later. I haven't started Craft-editing my Techs yet since I'm still getting used to being a combat caster. Before Bouncer I was pure Melee with BRV/HNT.

[Kondibon]

I see, I didn't realize crafting changed skills that much as to cause an issue. Good to know for later. I haven't started Craft-editing my Techs yet since I'm still getting used to being a combat caster. Before Bouncer I was pure Melee with BRV/HNT.It's because of the rebalacing to the techs without rebalancing the tech crafts. I don't think there was this big of an issue before.

[SuKKrl]

whew @ umbral megid not being nerfed.

This, definitely this.

[Walkure]

Meteor Cudgel itself isn't being nerfed, but there will limit placed on the number of whirlwinds you can have going at once (presumably they will still build gear).I'm okay with this, especially since it doesn't fuck over anything but shift spam. Was kinda worried that either the Chaos Riser spam or Double Sabers in general would get crippled in general play for that gimmick.


Elysion's latent will be nerfed.Additionally, the custom technics that will be nerfed in October are Ice Fang Nabarta and Umbral Namegid (the ones that boost damage).[/quote]Double dip nerfs, oh my!


The fact that they aren't touching fire technics shows they continue to have no grasp on the current balance...I'd agree that they're not the most OP techs I can think of, but I think I understand why.

As far as I know, this is entirely due to the way they changed the notation; those two techs are the only one where the Power notation went down to properly reflect values. With that in mind, Namegid is gaining double the intended amount of bonus damage, and Nabarta is gaining 2.23 what it's supposed to from crafted techniques.

Refer back to this image:
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/9AEwz0H.jpg[/spoiler-box]
As far as I know, the only error was that Backhand Smash had the -20% modifier before so there wasn't an actual change in damage (I'd forgotten about that mod, too).

I'd imagine that they get brought back down to the proportional upgrade that they were before the Ep3 changes.


It's the crafts specifically people are talking about. I don't remember which techs specifically but a few are getting too much from being crafted.

At least that's what people are saying. I have no idea.Take this with a grain of salt, since I basically stopped playing Force a while back (and I never did any serious stuff while even playing it) but here we go:

Before Ep3, FO/FI and FO/BR were useful because they could stack huge multipliers on one of the three FO elements. Of these, fire was probably the most popular to work with especially since so much stuff that people wanted to speedrun (TAs, TDs) had loads and loads of fire-weak mobs.

Now:


All the basic fire techs got huge buffs (again look at that chart).
Force tree is streamlined so that Fire-spec builds can focus entirely on upping damage relevant to fire techs.
Fighter Stances and Weak Stance on Braver got increased multipliers and their penalties removed. Fighter tree also has additional skills that come in handy for Force users, like Tech JA Arts. Skills like Halfline/PP slayer now affect TATK as well.

Those builds are pretty ridiculous now. FO/TE still gets a lot of similar upgrades as well.

[hoangsea]

no fire tech nerf, wth ... :-?

how about guld milla nerf ?

[LotusFX]

I'm fine with those 2 customized tech nerfs but Elysion's latent? Why? I was expecting fire techs to be nerfed too.

[Maenara]

As far as I know, this is entirely due to the way they changed the notation; those two techs are the only one where the Power notation went down to properly reflect values.

Ilfoie was another one whose notation went down. It doesn't have a recipe that increases damage though. Both its recipes DECREASE damage IIRC.

The issue is, Sega is nerfing these two customizations. However, any technic with power-changing recipes was changed. Those are the only two recipes that got better. Everything else got worse, and they aren't showing any sign of fixing that.

[Achelousaurus]

I consider the changing of MC's potential the true nerf.
there was a really strong DS (strongest in the game stat wise) that gave you better chances to find good fodder you can either use yourself or sell for $$$.
No shenanigans of switching weapons just before the boss did or crystal is popped (when is the actual calculation of items?) but just use a strong weapon from A to Z without even the chance to mess up.

Nope. Denied. Trolled. Gotcha good there.

[Aine]

Fire techs are amazing even as FoTe (in fact you'll probably want Te for Territory Burst and PP Convert). In EP2 Zondeel-based TD runs you had a Force supporting with Zondeel while melee dished out the damage. What happened in EP3 was that Gifoie was given a massive buff, so now Forces can fill both support and damage roles. With multiple Forces camping spawns and alternating between Zondeel and Gifoie, mobs will simply melt as they spawn.

On top of that, you have Rafoie to take care of anything that slips by, is far away, or spawns one-by-one. Despite being a hitscan tech (perfect accuracy, instant hit) it deals 20k+ damage which is enough to OHKO smaller mobs and kill larger mobs in a few hits. Oh, and it also benefits from S-charge so again, with multiple Forces anything is going to be exploding as soon as it spawns.

The Elysion nerf is probably because of how strong Namegid is with it:
http://nicotter.net/watch/sm24437563

[Dnd]

I consider the changing of MC's potential the true nerf.
there was a really strong DS (strongest in the game stat wise) that gave you better chances to find good fodder you can either use yourself or sell for $$$.
No shenanigans of switching weapons just before the boss did or crystal is popped (when is the actual calculation of items?) but just use a strong weapon from A to Z without even the chance to mess up.

Nope. Denied. Trolled. Gotcha good there.

When crystal breaks, is when calcuations of items are done.

When soloing it doesnt even matter changing weapons, it takes 1-2 seconds tops..
When in a party farming fodders normally everyone would say 'r' when they are ready for crystals to break
In mpa's you can just swap when the boss has 10% or less HP to be sure to grab it in time?
Also its far cheaper to grind a 7* to +10 3 times then an 11* to +10 4 times...

Imo it really isnt a hassle, not sure if your trolling either...

[Walkure]

Ilfoie was another one whose notation went down. It doesn't have a recipe that increases damage though. Both its recipes DECREASE damage IIRC.Oh, missed that one.


The issue is, Sega is nerfing these two customizations. However, any technic with power-changing recipes was changed. Those are the only two recipes that got better. Everything else got worse, and they aren't showing any sign of fixing that.Yeah, but outside of some exceptions (e.g. Nafoie, which.... I don't know what it's useful for anymore) most of the techs have less power gains from bonuses because they got buffed as a whole. They should probably look at the techs that didn't get any major buff but changed notation upward anyways. Do any of those techs have Power customization as a top choice, anyways?

Edit: Oh look, yep, Nafoie does with Flame 3. R.I.P.




I consider the changing of MC's potential the true nerf.
there was a really strong DS (strongest in the game stat wise) that gave you better chances to find good fodder you can either use yourself or sell for $$$.Potentials are what make a high-tier weapon strong, though.

And everyone knows that Madam's Umbrella is the new top-tier Skilled Trainer weapon. Such class!

And it's even multi-class too!





Fire techs are amazing even as FoTe (in fact you'll probably want Te for Territory Burst and PP Convert). In EP2 Zondeel-based TD runs you had a Force supporting with Zondeel while melee dished out the damage. What happened in EP3 was that Gifoie was given a massive buff, so now Forces can fill both support and damage roles. With multiple Forces camping spawns and alternating between Zondeel and Gifoie, mobs will simply melt as they spawn.Oh cool, I'd assumed that most people were just dump trucking everything with a straight damage sub. That sense for mining strategies.

The Elysion nerf is probably because of how strong Namegid is with it:
http://nicotter.net/watch/sm24437563That's a lot of collateral damage if that's all that they were trying to nerf. Why not just nerf uncharged Namegid?

[milranduil]

To be honest, I don't know why they are nerfing Elysion on top of Namegid... just seems kind of excessive. Going to hurt Techer a lot for large enemies/bossing.

[SakoHaruo]

Removes all hoops from skill trees and add new damage .

starts nerfing everything.

Sega, kill yourself. o3o

[Kondibon]

To be honest, I don't know why they are nerfing Elysion on top of Namegid... just seems kind of excessive. Going to hurt Techer a lot for large enemies/bossing.I personaly always thought Elysion needed a nerf. It was pretty dumb locking an entire playstyle behind a rare and expensive weapon. That said, it's also dumb to nerf Elysion and not buff normal tech adv. >_>

[Z-0]

Yeah, but outside of some exceptions (e.g. Nafoie, which.... I don't know what it's useful for anymore) most of the techs have less power gains from bonuses because they got buffed as a whole. They should probably look at the techs that didn't get any major buff but changed notation upward anyways. Do any of those techs have Power customization as a top choice, anyways?
While the customizations may have gotten worse, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be nerfed. Fire techs were already pretty OP in Episode 2, due to Flame S Charge, the tech customizations and more places being weak to fire than anywhere else. It wasn't totally ridiculous though, although you could still do some things like solo Wave 4 TD1 at the spawn point if you were good enough with Zondeel and Nafoie.

Now, they decided to buff pretty much every fire tech (god knows why!), and now they're even more overpowered than ever before. The problem isn't necessarily the values going down and tech customizations being OP, like Nabarta and Namegid, but the buff with the customizations makes them way too strong regardless, even if they give relatively less.

Note that all of Fire's power 3s are +Power, -SE, which means more power for no cost.

[Pugas87]

Annnnnnd now i'm completely going melee techer

[Xaelouse]

suddenly a 10503 wind elysion undercut war

[Walkure]

While the customizations may have gotten worse, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be nerfed. Fire techs were already pretty OP in Episode 2, due to Flame S Charge, the tech customizations and more places being weak to fire than anywhere else. It wasn't totally ridiculous though, although you could still do some things like solo Wave 4 TD1 at the spawn point if you were good enough with Zondeel and Nafoie.

Now, they decided to buff pretty much every fire tech (god knows why!), and now they're even more overpowered than ever before. The problem isn't necessarily the values going down and tech customizations being OP, like Nabarta and Namegid, but the buff with the customizations makes them way too strong regardless, even if they give relatively less.

Note that all of Fire's power 3s are +Power, -SE, which means more power for no cost.I wasn't really arguing that fire techs were balanced; I was just pointing out that power customizations are less powerful for the most part due to the base techs getting buffed.

[GALEFORCE]

I hope kamaitachi stacking with MC still ends up being viable. It was fun to see that weapon action actually do something.

[Aine]

That's a lot of collateral damage if that's all that they were trying to nerf. Why not just nerf uncharged Namegid?

Well that's the problem, they can't balance uncharged techs properly because Elysion exists. It's either have them useless on a normal build and usable on an Elysion build, or usable on a normal build and broken on an Elysion build.

It would be great if they took this opportunity to properly balance uncharged techs, but let's be honest, they aren't competent enough to do that.

[Cyhiwraith]

I don't get what people want for fire. With retarded talent trees I don't see how it's possible to nerf it without it being unviable. If it hit 1/2 as hard as something else due to speed, that's just a waste of 10 talent points imo, it drains PP so fast too. I don't see an issue with 1 full fire spec foie hitting as hard as one full lightining spec zonde.

Edit: Maybe a PP reduction as well as damage reduction? I mean... just taking away damage would make it suck with how fast you can run out of PP, imo.

[Gardios]

Rest in peace, ELY.

It'll be a cold day in hell if they can actually bother making uncharged techniques usable after that.

[Unnamed Player]

It was pretty dumb locking an entire playstyle behind a rare and expensive weapon. That said, it's also dumb to nerf Elysion and not buff normal tech adv. >_>Q F T

[ZER0 DX]

And to think I was considering buying a Meteor Cudgel last night. Glad I didn't. Price of that thing is probably going to plummet now.

[Ceresa]

I personaly always thought Elysion needed a nerf. It was pretty dumb locking an entire playstyle behind a rare and expensive weapon. That said, it's also dumb to nerf Elysion and not buff normal tech adv. >_>

So rare and expensive it's been affordable with a day's worth of TA for like an entire year?

The time to nerf this shit was well before they had a boost week, before element conversion was a thing, before people made multiples. Would have required their new balance director to not be a fucking fraud though.

And frankly the game needs more playstyle changing weapons, nerfing the only two weapons in the game that had unique gameplay potentials is a pretty sad sight for the future. Generic damage forever yay.

[Alma]

wtf sega thinking nerfing elysion...
now FO playstyle locked to charged only >_<

[Achelousaurus]

When crystal breaks, is when calcuations of items are done.

When soloing it doesnt even matter changing weapons, it takes 1-2 seconds tops..
When in a party farming fodders normally everyone would say 'r' when they are ready for crystals to break
In mpa's you can just swap when the boss has 10% or less HP to be sure to grab it in time?
Also its far cheaper to grind a 7* to +10 3 times then an 11* to +10 4 times...

Imo it really isnt a hassle, not sure if your trolling either...
Trolling WTF?
The point is swapping time, that is never really an issue (well, I never ever get to play with mpas full of team mates /friends so I always have randoms but that isn't the issue).
Point is, when you kill a boss at 2am and got work the next day, probably of forgetting to swap weapon is about 75%.
Not to mention the pricing as you mentiond, even without a dmg increasing potential or something like pp usage reduction MC is strong and good enough to use as proper weapon, so I would not need to buy another weapon with maxed potential for it, or god forbid, go through Dudu hell myself to get it.

[Sayara]

Since when did Meteor Crudgel have a different latent that wasn't MKBs?

[Dark Matter]

For those who didnt understand the meteor cudel alteration

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24363493

lvl 55/58 fi/hu

[Kikikiki]

Since Episode 3.

[LonelyGaruga]

I consider the changing of MC's potential the true nerf.

Meteor Cudgel got an additional potential. It was never changed. You can still use Skilled Trainer.


To be honest, I don't know why they are nerfing Elysion on top of Namegid... just seems kind of excessive. Going to hurt Techer a lot for large enemies/bossing.

Outside of Ilbarta shenanigans, this doesn't hurt Techer's capabilities much at all. The buffs to its melee are more than enough to make it the superior option for basically everything without an infection point, and sometimes even then. I think the nerf is more troubling for using Sazan against small, spread out mobs, like Nab II's Aginis, but they'll still probably be vaporized rapidly.

Namegid isn't getting nerfed so much as its recipe, with the changes done in EP3, adds about 50% more damage as opposed to the 25% it did before, due to the notation changes. Same deal with Nabarta, adding more than was intended because notation changes. Though, as mentioned, it's stupid they're fixing the recipes that now add more damage than they were intended to, but not the ones that add less damage with the notation changes.


I personaly always thought Elysion needed a nerf. It was pretty dumb locking an entire playstyle behind a rare and expensive weapon. That said, it's also dumb to nerf Elysion and not buff normal tech adv. >_>

Elysion is neither rare nor expensive. TD and Elder drop it quite frequently. I own three right now, and two match element for easy 50. Elysion hasn't been all that rare for a long time now, there's really no particular reason not to have one if you're consistently running TD and Elder, unless you're particularly unlucky.


Point is, when you kill a boss at 2am and got work the next day, probably of forgetting to swap weapon is about 75%.

If you can't remember to switch your weapon at 2 AM, I'm surprised you can even kill the boss consistently in the first place at that hour. Really no excuse for forgetting.

[Sayara]

For those who didnt understand the meteor cudel alteration

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24363493

lvl 55/58 fi/hu

Wow what even. SPIN TO WIN never looked so absurd.

[D-Inferno]

I like that Elysion is being nerfed. No more need to make a rainbow of them. Uncharge techs are boring looking, and don't deserve better DPS than charged. Not to mention it makes newman FO/TEs need to waste points in S-ATK Up 1. What they should do is make them cost half the PP each, so that they could at least be used as a minor finisher for weak stuff.

[Unnamed Player]

Uncharge techs are boring looking, and don't deserve better DPS than charged.this is just nonsense....

[TaigaUC]

Just saw this and talked with a JP friend about it. They know the game well, especially casters.
Apparently Elysion with Sa Barta and custom Ra Zan are also ridiculously overpowered right now.

I don't really like that Elysion is being nerfed after I specifically setup my characters for it (they better be distributing skill reset tickets).
However, I've never liked that non-charge relies on a single weapon's latent.
That's just stupid as fug.

From the beginning, non-charged was virtually pointless. Same cost, far worse effect. Why??
They should have focused more on having a non-charge playstyle, which would probably have worked well with Techer's melee.

[Sayara]

I use uncharged techs as just normal game play now. Regardless of Elysion. Makes for a nice disrupter for a melee techer. Or Bouncer as well if you're doing boots.

[LonelyGaruga]

I like that Elysion is being nerfed. No more need to make a rainbow of them. Uncharge techs are boring looking, and don't deserve better DPS than charged. Not to mention it makes newman FO/TEs need to waste points in S-ATK Up 1. What they should do is make them cost half the PP each, so that they could at least be used as a minor finisher for weak stuff.

1) You never needed a rainbow of them in the first place. Ice/Wind were pretty much it. Lightning only really has Sazonde (which probably does warrant a Lightning Elysion) and uncharged Namegid is primarily for mobbing, which Ilmegid does better.

2) Uncharged techs consume PP faster, do not benefit from PP Charge Revival, and do not allow for movement while in use. Why should they also be condemned to never have better DPS? There's only a handful of techs that are good with Elysion in the first place.

3) You can also use S-ATK on your mag, which is the smarter thing to do as far as efficiency goes.

4) PP cost is subtracted the moment you use a tech, whether you charge it or not. It is impossible to have an uncharged tech and a charged tech have different costs because of this. This doesn't help anyway because charged techs benefit from PP Charge Revival, so they already have a reduced cost compared to uncharged techs.

[Alma]

So rare and expensive it's been affordable with a day's worth of TA for like an entire year?

The time to nerf this shit was well before they had a boost week, before element conversion was a thing, before people made multiples. Would have required their new balance director to not be a fucking fraud though.

And frankly the game needs more playstyle changing weapons, nerfing the only two weapons in the game that had unique gameplay potentials is a pretty sad sight for the future. Generic damage forever yay.

^was agreeing with these so much

[gigawuts]

Elysion fix: uncharged tech pp recovery

recover 3/4/5 pp when using an uncharged tech

then put that same skill on force (5 pp, 5 sp), under normal tech advance

then boost normal tech advance to 30%

then boost certain uncharged techs, but not all of them

[Z-0]

So rare and expensive it's been affordable with a day's worth of TA for like an entire year?

The time to nerf this shit was well before they had a boost week, before element conversion was a thing, before people made multiples. Would have required their new balance director to not be a fucking fraud though.

And frankly the game needs more playstyle changing weapons, nerfing the only two weapons in the game that had unique gameplay potentials is a pretty sad sight for the future. Generic damage forever yay.
Yep, pretty much this.

They take far too fucking long to nerf anything, so once you've invested in it for efficiency reasons, say goodbye to those investments.

read: Braver.

[gigawuts]

Also I've been saying for a while that they could easily make techs cost 50% on activation, then drain the rest of the pp cost over the course of the charge.

With PP revival you would lose PP at a rate just above what you normally recover for most/all techs. If you don't have PP revival you lose the remaining 50% at whatever the calculated amount/time rate is. Whether you have PP revival or not, if you run out of PP mid-charge you cast it as soon as you hit 0 pp.

[Walkure]

Who wants to take bets on the maximum number of cyclones?

I'm thinking either 3 or 5. Enough to not be noticeable to most players, but not enough to able to make level 3 cyclones off cyclone hits.

[Kondibon]

Also I've been saying for a while that they could easily make techs cost 50% on activation, then drain the rest of the pp cost over the course of the charge.

With PP revival you would lose PP at a rate just above what you normally recover for most/all techs. If you don't have PP revival you lose the remaining 50% at whatever the calculated amount/time rate is. Whether you have PP revival or not, if you run out of PP mid-charge you cast it as soon as you hit 0 pp.I was thinking it could work like Phantasy Star Zero and have the techs just use more pp when they're fully charged, but not let you finish charging if you don't have the PP.

[Xaeris]

You know, when Bouncer was announced to be a striking/tech hybrid, I was sure that the teching half of its tree was going to have something to do with enhancing normal techs. Outside of Elysion, normal casting is barely a blip in Force or Techer gameplay and I just find that a hideous waste of potential.

So ultimately, I always thought it was kinda stupid that one single weapon and its latent were so literally game changing, but I didn't have a problem with the actual game changing. I just would have liked to see a proper path for enhancing normal techs incorporated into a tree. Bouncer was a great opportunity for that, what, with it being a striking hybrid, but...they just...didn't.

At least they hopped on Meteor Cudgel before people really started emptying their pockets drinking the spin-to-win kool-aid.

[TaigaUC]

Elysion fix:
Latent has been moved to Techer and/or Bouncer skill trees.

[gigawuts]

Who wants to take bets on the maximum number of cyclones?

I'm thinking either 3 or 5. Enough to not be noticeable to most players, but not enough to able to make level 3 cyclones off cyclone hits.

This is what I'm hoping, but I'd like to see the limit tied to the gear. More gear = more tornadoes allowed. Or maybe the other way around.

I was thinking it could work like Phantasy Star Zero and have the techs just use more pp when they're fully charged, but not let you finish charging if you don't have the PP.

This also works totally great and would be much easier and more intuitive than what I said (The only real difference is charging wouldn't slowly drain on the PP bar, I guess).

[Shinmarizu]

Why not keep the current speed of gear generation, but prevent the cyclones themselves from generating gear?

[Kondibon]

Elysion fix:
Latent has been moved to Techer and/or Bouncer skill trees.Fo already has a skill for it, it's just nowhere near as potent as it should be.



This also works totally great and would be much easier and more intuitive than what I said (The only real difference is charging wouldn't slowly drain on the PP bar, I guess).The main reason I feel draining the pp during charging would be a bad idea is because the idea of letting Tech go early but not immediately, for whatever reason, would end up just wasting pp, unless there's a steady curve in the damage increase.

[Hrith]

SEGA is killing their own game by giving no incentive to become skilled or explore the depths of the amazing gameplay of PSO2.

We need more diversity, more variety. This is an action game, not an RPG: numbers should not matter as much as gameplay.

[Zerex]

At least they hopped on Meteor Cudgel before people really started emptying their pockets drinking the spin-to-win kool-aid.

At least we can still Limit break and sub BO to shoot blades to win!

[Kondibon]

I just realized what you guys are talking about with gear and cyclones, and my ideal solution would be to have using the gear while it's active just increase the time rather than stack at all.



We need more diversity, more variety. This is an action game, not an RPG: numbers should not matter as much as gameplay.Technically it's an action rpg and this is actually pretty common so...

But I don't disagree. in particular I think the gap between being a moderately geared TE/RA and the max possible potential needs to be closed.

[LonelyGaruga]

SEGA is killing their own game by giving no incentive to become skilled or explore the depths of the amazing gameplay of PSO2.

We need more diversity, more variety. This is an action game, not an RPG: numbers should not matter as much as gameplay.

Seems like it's an action game and an RPG to me.

FYI players that have no incentive now wouldn't bother becoming better players no matter what was done with it. Self improvement is something that a player needs to want for themselves, not because a game demands it of them. If the content becomes too difficult for them and requires self improvement, they'll simply whine about how hard it is, like every game that gets labeled "difficult". Only people that want to improve themselves will do so.

And "unique" play is not going to make a difference in any way. It'll just create more players that want to play their way, instead of actually learning how to play well.

[Z-0]

But I don't disagree. in particular I think the gap between being a moderately geared TE/RA and the max possible potential needs to be closed.
Disagree. There should always be goals to strive for and the ability to get better, rather than complaining you are not at max possible potential because of poor choices in the game, and hoping people actually trying get nerfed, or that one can be closer to it without really trying to making intelligent choices.

Yeah, no.

[Kondibon]

FYI players that have no incentive now wouldn't bother becoming better players no matter what was done with it. Self improvement is something that a player needs to want for themselves, not because a game demands it of them. If the content becomes too difficult for them and requires self improvement, they'll simply whine about how hard it is, like every game that gets labeled "difficult". Only people that want to improve themselves will do so.The biggest problem here stems from sega not making any of the "difficult" content something people can organize them selves for or that rewards you for playing at least decently. They seemed to try this with AQs but the fact that things like TD and luther are randomly generated on top of being time gated, and requiring a lot of people to do efficiently means you have no choice but to do them with randoms most of the time. I feel like developers of coop online games are becoming afraid of making "exclusive" content, even if it's just to the side and not required for the rest of the game. Or at least the higher ups are.

[LonelyGaruga]

That kind of content wouldn't make people want to get better. Either they'll whine, they'll get people to carry them, or they'll do horribly compared to people that improve themselves just for the sake of being better at the game.

The issue is not the game, it's the people playing it. If a person has no interest in improving now, more difficult content that is readily accessible is not going to do anything for them.

That said, that content is perfect for the people that do strive for self improvement, since it gives them a satisfying goal.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Why not keep the current speed of gear generation, but prevent the cyclones themselves from generating gear?

That would hurt every other double saber in the game.

If they limit cyclones to... 2 max, that would only really effect meteor cudgel since that's the only D saber easily capable of producing more than that at once before the old ones expire.

[pkemr4]

the whole elysion nerf is stupid.

[Sp-24]

Disagree. There should always be goals to strive for and the ability to get better, rather than complaining you are not at max possible potential because of poor choices in the game, and hoping people actually trying get nerfed, or that one can be closer to it without really trying to making intelligent choices.

Yeah, no.
But this isn't a puzzle game, where you use your 80 (soon to be 85) SP to connect the skill tree branches into the one and only correct max DPS setup. The entire point is that there is supposed to be customization. Having one cookie cutter build that is automatically better than anything else in the entire game does nothing good, and certainly doesn't make the game any more skill-based or even any deep in the first place.

[LonelyGaruga]

How did you get that out of what Z-0 said?

[Walkure]

Also, anyone know the JP general reactions to Elysion changes?
But this isn't a puzzle game, where you use your 80 (soon to be 85) SP to connect the skill tree branches into the one and only correct max DPS setup. The entire point is that there is supposed to be customization. Having one cookie cutter build that is automatically better than anything else in the entire game does nothing good, and certainly doesn't make the game any more skill-based or even any deep in the first place....what

This discussion is around one of the biggest playstyle customizations for tech users eating a nerf and possibly sliding into irrelevance.

[Sp-24]

How did you get that out of what Z-0 said?
Because he disagreed with Kondibon's point that the current state of things is not okay, implicitly saying that it is, in fact, okay?

[Kondibon]

Disagree. There should always be goals to strive for and the ability to get better, rather than complaining you are not at max possible potential because of poor choices in the game, and hoping people actually trying get nerfed, or that one can be closer to it without really trying to making intelligent choices.

Yeah, no."Oh no, all my hard work was wasted because some guy is running a slightly less efficient build and not getting his shit pushed in"

If your sole motivation for going all out is just to feel better than people then get over your self. I'm all for hard content, and I'm all for stuff that requires and rewards coordination and understanding of the game. I'm NOT all for gating important things like builds, and gear behind money and RNG walls. I don't want the gap completely gone, I just don't want it to be so dramatic.

Considering how brain dead and straightforward most of the builds are, and the fact that a lot of bad players just ask people for the "best" build anyway though, I don't see what you mean by "intelligent choices". There's also plenty of fully fuctional and completely synergistic builds that aren't usable simply because the role they fill isn't needed for most content, but who's gonna know that without doing a bunch of research, playing it them selves, and/or asking people, who in my experience, can be completely polar in their oppinions on things. Are you telling me that player should be punished for not spending hours doing research on builds and should have to spend real money or wait until sega decides to make one of their ill-informed balance changes to fix it if they make a mistake? Because that's bullshit.


That kind of content wouldn't make people want to get better. Either they'll whine, they'll get people to carry them, or they'll do horribly compared to people that improve themselves just for the sake of being better at the game.

The issue is not the game, it's the people playing it. If a person has no interest in improving now, more difficult content that is readily accessible is not going to do anything for them.

That said, that content is perfect for the people that do strive for self improvement, since it gives them a satisfying goal.I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't care if people want to improve or not. I'm saying there needs to be separated content so the people who don't care to improve won't be a burden to the people who do.

The reason I think the content needs to be accessible isn't because I think casuals would be more likely to do it, but because it would let hardcore players actually organize stuff instead of "oh shit, there's a TD, oh shit 11 of my friends aren't online but I want to do it!". This means they could make content that's specifically catered to them and is built around being difficult and expecting the most of the players rather than an EQ that a bunch of underleveld Te/Ras can do. Then they can keep the other content as it is so casual players have stuff to do. The content needs to be separated though. The EQ system is terrible.



Elysion is neither rare nor expensive. TD and Elder drop it quite frequently. I own three right now, and two match element for easy 50. Elysion hasn't been all that rare for a long time now, there's really no particular reason not to have one if you're consistently running TD and Elder, unless you're particularly unlucky.EDIT: Forgot to respond to this.

It's rare and expensive in the context of being required for a build. If shops weren't so limited for non-premium players and grinding/affixing wasn't a load of RNG I'd probably agree.

[horseship]

the whole elysion nerf is stupid.

Agree. If certain uncharged techs are problematic with Elysion, they should just nerf those instead of nerfing all of them in general. Nerfing Elysion does pretty much as little as nerfing S-Roll in the sense that you're still going to have to use it if you want to use uncharged techs effectively. The nerf is just reducing damage for the sake of reducing damage and not addressing the real problem, which lies in how little damage uncharged techs do without Elysion and how insignificant the damage boost is from normal tech advance.

[elryan]

Agree. If certain uncharged techs are problematic with Elysion, they should just nerf those instead of nerfing all of them in general.

But if you do that, the techs that are nerfed will be also nerfed for Force or Bouncer. That's not how balancing works.

I suspect they nerfed it because they didn't anticipate the increase of damage from Elysion build when buffing all the techs for EP3.

[Bellion]

Also, anyone know the JP general reactions to Elysion changes?

Seems to be along the lines of "Elysion is dead, hurry and buy fire tech boosting weapons."

I hope they nerf it by 10% at most, nothing more.

[Kondibon]

Seems to be along the lines of "Elysion is dead, hurry and buy fire tech boosting weapons."

I hope they nerf it by 10% at most, nothing more.I hope they nerf it TO 10%.

Then buff normal tech advanced, add a second one and make them both 50% each. :U

[horseship]

But if you do that, the techs that are nerfed will be also nerfed for Force or Bouncer. That's not how balancing works.

They could always only adjust the uncharged damage and keep the charged damage the same. I see no reason why you would use uncharged techs without Elysion with the latent in its current state anyway so it wouldn't affect anyone but Elysion users.

Ideally I would like to see Elysion's latent boost uncharged techs by 30% or so and change Normal Tech Advance to 50% just so Elysion wouldn't be a "must-have" for uncharged techs, and also so that Elysion isn't completely outclassed by 20% tech boosting latents (Bert Rodan, Weddle Park, etc).

[Bellion]

Fine, but reduce the NTA skills to 5 SP each. :(

[EvilMag]

So you mean to tell me Forces will now be Fire Techniques The Game?

well glad I didn't fuck with my mag to put S-atk on there.

[Sanguine2009]

I hope they nerf it TO 10%.

Then buff normal tech advanced, add a second one and make them both 50% each. :U

you are crazy. force should not be able to use elysion in the first place, much less its effect(at elysion's magnitude) be locked to its tree.

this nerf makes zero sense either, its not like it was useful for many techs in the first place. just nerf the % of the charged damage the uncharged version of the offending tech(s) deal.

finally to those of you saying a weapon should not change the play style, i say that's wrong. we need MORE weapons like elysion that change how things play. things that are more than just model changes with higher stats. that's one of the reasons hunting for rares feels so dull, all you are rewarded with is higher numbers rather than new options.

[Kondibon]

Fine, but reduce the NTA skills to 5 SP each. :(What? No, the whole idea was to make them even with the tech charge advances in total point cost. It was mostly a joke though. I actually think damage isn't what uncharged techs should be getting, rather they should get lower PP costs, but that should be default. I:

I also said that about talis cards being a utility and how they should get a utility based skill though, and then we got talis tech bonus so blah.

[Xaeris]

Personally, I would like to see Sega do adjustments that aren't centered around tweaking damage multipliers for a change. The problem with normal casting is that it's inferior to charged casting in pretty much every way apart from cast time: less projectiles, less range, same PP cost and, of course, less damage. If they fixed the normal versions of techs to have animations that weren't so awful in comparison to the charged versions, teching could become more a trade off between charging and normal versus the braindead easy choice it is now.

Either way though, the viability of normal techs shouldn't teeter on the strength of a single weapon. That was always stupid.

[pkemr4]

feels good buying that lvl 3 3s fire latent rod along time ago when it was cheap

[Kondibon]

Another idea I had was for techs to simply function differently uncharged, or have their secondary effects reduced rather than the damage, like how the only difference between charged and uncharged banishing arrow is the AoE. I mean, a lot of techs like Foie and sazan already do that part, it's just that they have the decreased damage on top. :/

[TaigaUC]

Fo already has a skill for it, it's just nowhere near as potent as it should be.

Yeah, I know. It was at the bottom of the Lightning tree, and completely pointless before Elysion was a thing.

PSO2 has come such a long way!

[Alandsmj]

Goodness. Why so much hatred for fire techs. It's usefulness is somewhat limited to TD1/TD2 with a fully coordinated Fire FO group. In fact Light/Wind/Ice and even Dark are all viable in these two quests and I have to point out that 9000 damage efficient Ilmegid is still doable with average gear, the right skill tree and a TE.

I don't even use fire anymore and put the only set of Fire rod/talis on market because it is NOT THE ONLY LINE OF TECHS THAT MATTERS. In the new map (where most new weapons/units come from) Dark does a much better job and in the next map the enemies will probably be weak to Ice. Ultimate? Fire/Wind/Ice/Lightning probably will be THE element since the tend to release the three "starting area" as a testing ground. And see, fire is only like 1/4 of that.

And even then you have multi3-razan with a power of 900 that cost like 20PP, the efficient Sazan that still does good damage without an EL but with a Wind talis. Concentrated Ragrant hits like a horse and Efficient Grant never misses one weakspot (Unlike Sazan and Razan) and cost far less PP. Vanilla Gigrant actually has a Power of 660 because 550 is for 5 hits while the actual TC has 6hits. And there is Icefang/Effecient Barta, Gibarta, Multi3 Rabarta, and Narta still hits hard with an Ice build.

But do they steal thunder from melee classes? I don't think so. Even in TD1 and TD2 people nowadays kill bosses with a WB in their butt fast enough that I really don't care if it's a melee or ranged as long as they are not stupid. Mobs are just easy enough for most classes with decent gear and the right mind as long as they DON'T LEECH. For the most difficult TD3, it's a collecting and Gundam game. Fire or no fire I don't care. Instead the thing I care most is if there is a RA with 4 WB, and if the group knows when to defend the tower instead of chasing after every boss.

So please stop these nonsense. And play an FO for real for once. If it's possible, I just hope you guys play a non-EL FO before Ilmegid in EP2, where their damage potential is suspected by most of the population.

[Sanguine2009]

Goodness. Why so much hatred for fire techs. It's usefulness is somewhat limited to TD1/TD2 with a fully coordinated Fire FO group. In fact Light/Wind/Ice and even Dark are all viable in these two quests and I have to point out that 9000 damage efficient Ilmegid is still doable with average gear, the right skill tree and a TE.

I don't even use fire anymore and put the only set of Fire rod/talis on market because it is NOT THE ONLY LINE OF TECHS THAT MATTERS. In the new map (where most new weapons/units come from) Dark does a much better job and in the next map the enemies will probably be weak to Ice. Ultimate? Fire/Wind/Ice/Lightning probably will be THE element since the tend to release the three "starting area" as a testing ground. And see, fire is only like 1/4 of that.

And even then you have multi3-razan with a power of 900 that cost like 20PP, the efficient Sazan that still does good damage without an EL but with a Wind talis. Concentrated Ragrant hits like a horse and Efficient Grant never misses one weakspot (Unlike Sazan and Razan) and cost far less PP. Vanilla Gigrant actually has a Power of 660 because 550 is for 5 hits while the actual TC has 6hits. And there is Icefang/Effecient Barta, Gibarta, Multi3 Rabarta, and Narta still hits hard with an Ice build.

But do they steal thunder from melee classes? I don't think so. Even in TD1 and TD2 people nowadays kill bosses with a WB in their butt fast enough that I really don't care if it's a melee or ranged as long as they are not stupid. Mobs are just easy enough for most classes with decent gear and the right mind as long as they DON'T LEECH. For the most difficult TD3, it's a collecting and Gundam game. Fire or no fire I don't care. Instead the thing I care most is if there is a RA with 4 WB, and if the group knows when to defend the tower instead of chasing after every boss.

So please stop these nonsense. And play an FO for real for once. If it's possible, I just hope you guys play a non-EL FO before Ilmegid in EP2, where their damage potential is suspected by most of the population.

the issue is not that fo loses options, they have tons of other things they can replace it with.

the issue is taking away techers best ranged option. its WAND, not a rod. forces should not be able to use it in the first place.

[Alandsmj]

the issue is not that fo loses options, they have tons of other things they can replace it with.

the issue is taking away techers best ranged option. its WAND, not a rod. forces should not be able to use it in the first place.

Even they nerf EL into TE only one can always craft an EL to be usable by FO.
The one solution would be to distribute the potential of EL into the TE tree and make them TE main only. That probably would make hybrid TEs very happy because they can just use every wand like an EL.

[LonelyGaruga]

Because he disagreed with Kondibon's point that the current state of things is not okay, implicitly saying that it is, in fact, okay?

That is not an accurate assessment of how the game is right now though.


"Oh no, all my hard work was wasted because some guy is running a slightly less efficient build and not getting his shit pushed in"

Nobody said that.


If your sole motivation for going all out is just to feel better than people then get over your self.

Nobody said that either. The motivation should be self improvement for the sake of self improvement so you can be better than you were. That's how it is for most people I know that strive to play as well as they can. It isn't a competition, it's how they have fun, by improving and being better players than they used to be.


I'm all for hard content, and I'm all for stuff that requires and rewards coordination and understanding of the game. I'm NOT all for gating important things like builds, and gear behind money and RNG walls. I don't want the gap completely gone, I just don't want it to be so dramatic.

Equipment should always be important to particular builds, so a money and RNG wall is necessary within the game's context. I don't see anything wrong with that, it just means you can't use a particular build until you get past that wall. It's not like there are zero options available for a build at all this way.


Considering how brain dead and straightforward most of the builds are, and the fact that a lot of bad players just ask people for the "best" build anyway though, I don't see what you mean by "intelligent choices".

Not deliberately stupid.


There's also plenty of fully fuctional and completely synergistic builds that aren't usable simply because the role they fill isn't needed for most content, but who's gonna know that without doing a bunch of research, playing it them selves, and/or asking people, who in my experience, can be completely polar in their oppinions on things.

You can just glance at the build thread and figure out most of this stuff yourself and asking a couple questions.


Are you telling me that player should be punished for not spending hours doing research on builds and should have to spend real money or wait until sega decides to make one of their ill-informed balance changes to fix it if they make a mistake? Because that's bullshit.

I think it's perfectly fair if they need to spend hours to figure it out, if they need to spend money because they were hasty on making decisions, and wait on balance changes that they have no way of knowing when or if they will occur.

Just with the guides on the forum, it should be easy to understand what not to do. From there, it's pretty simple. I certainly did not have any trouble figuring out what to do after asking some questions after joining, both here and on PSO2. I'm not sure why other people, who now have access to more information than before, would face difficulties I didn't encounter.


I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't care if people want to improve or not. I'm saying there needs to be separated content so the people who don't care to improve won't be a burden to the people who do.

They will always be a burden. They'll pester to be carried through that content when they're ill prepared. They'll whine to Sega and push them to nerf the content to fit their needs. While they won't screw people over simply by existing, they can still be a burden simply by voicing their opinions to Sega.


The reason I think the content needs to be accessible isn't because I think casuals would be more likely to do it, but because it would let hardcore players actually organize stuff instead of "oh shit, there's a TD, oh shit 11 of my friends aren't online but I want to do it!". This means they could make content that's specifically catered to them and is built around being difficult and expecting the most of the players rather than an EQ that a bunch of underleveld Te/Ras can do. Then they can keep the other content as it is so casual players have stuff to do. The content needs to be separated though. The EQ system is terrible.

By accessible, I thought you meant readily available, as in not restricted by time frame, as opposed to player skill. Ah well, my bad.

I don't really get what you're saying. The content can't be separated. Both casuals and ordinary players would have the same level of access to the content, the only difference would be how well they would do it. And the casuals will whine about not being able to complete the quests and pester Sega to nerf it so they can do it. Sega can't cater to players striving to play as well as they can precisely because casuals will also be able to have access to the same content. As long as there is something that they can access, but can't complete, they're going to complain to Sega. And Sega won't have much choice but to nerf it.


It's rare and expensive in the context of being required for a build. If shops weren't so limited for non-premium players and grinding/affixing wasn't a load of RNG I'd probably agree.

I'm not really seeing how this is a problem. It just makes some uncharged techs worth using. This isn't a class defining, can't play at all without this kind of weapon. It's nice to have but it isn't strictly necessary to be usable. If there's a build you want to use and a weapon is strictly necessary for it, that's how it goes. Don't know why you'd do that if premium isn't on the table, though. Building around Elysion with just one skill tree is a really bad idea.


Another idea I had was for techs to simply function differently uncharged, or have their secondary effects reduced rather than the damage, like how the only difference between charged and uncharged banishing arrow is the AoE. I mean, a lot of techs like Foie and sazan already do that part, it's just that they have the decreased damage on top. :/

Foie shoots out a pitiful fireball that barely travels any distance. Do you have something else in mind?

I'm noticing a recurring problem with Innocent Form being attached to Elysion exclusively, and complaints being about that. There is nothing keeping Innocent Form from being attached to something that isn't Elysion, and there are very good odds that Sega will give something besides Elysion that potential. Soon? Probably not. But it's something to keep in mind that, while now, it's just Elysion, that doesn't necessarily have to be true in the future.

Similarly, while Innocent Form is being nerfed now, internal data has indicated that potentials will go up all the way to level 5. Quite frankly, I don't see level 3 being 100% as a good thing for when the additional potential levels get implemented. Again, the nerf doesn't indicate that they will do so soon, but it's good game design to plan for the future, and that's what I think the nerf is for.

Lastly, the nerf for Innocent Form, while hurting Elysion, also makes it less OP if it was, say, on a Rod. If a Rod were to get a 100% increase on uncharged techs on top of having roughly 200 more T-ATK than a Wand normally would, I think a nerf really would be warranted. This makes Innocent Form a more versatile potential, as right now, Elysion's T-ATK is quite mediocre compared to Rods, but still manages to be a highly important weapon simply because of how potent the potential's effect is. With a weaker effect, it can be placed on a stronger weapon with a less overpowering effect, and making it a more common potential won't carry balance risks.

While the nerf to Innocent Form isn't necessarily warranted with how the game is right now, it's important to look at other factors instead of just the immediate ones. While they were probably most important, it's unlikely that the nerf was not done without any forethought involved.

That being said, I am completely with complaints on nerfing Elysion right now, I just think it's important to look at why they might do so. I'm not going to say it was a good decision, that would be lying.

EDIT:


the issue is taking away techers best ranged option. its WAND, not a rod. forces should not be able to use it in the first place.

All the 11*s that Elder dropped when Elysion was implemented were multi-class the same way Elysion is. That isn't a problem. Neither is the nerf. It will not take away much from Techer, just make it less effective.

[SakoHaruo]

Rip Fighter. You won't be missed. :(

Man, Force users are the biggest crybabies. I remember when Fo was King shit in VHTA and VHAQ people were still complaining. Maybe they were just unaware. :wacko:

[Sanguine2009]

All the 11*s that Elder dropped when Elysion was implemented were multi-class the same way Elysion is. That isn't a problem. Neither is the nerf. It will not take away much from Techer, just make it less effective.

while that is true, balance wise the more the two classes can be differentiated the better.
as far as whether or not the the nerf takes much away or not, that depends on how much its nerfed. -10% or -20% wont be too big a deal, -50%~ completely guts it. im betting on something more like the latter because sega gonna sega, even with the new guy.

[BIG OLAF]

Still trying super-hard to make people mad, I see.

Anyway, the Meteor Cudgel nerf is fine to me, since there aren't a massive amount of times where smashing the button (I use a controller, so I refrain from saying 'shift spam') and making eleventy billion tornadoes comes in handy. As long as the gear gauge increase itself stays, that's great.

[gigawuts]

Rip Fighter. You won't be missed. :(

Man, Force users are the biggest crybabies. I remember when Fo was King shit in VHTA and VHAQ people were still complaining. Maybe they were just unaware. :wacko:

Those were just the players that want to instakill everything at every range and whined that they couldn't. Since FO was closest to doing that, that's what they all played.

They were the plasma+battle rifle spammers on halo 2. 2shotting everyone from obscene ranges really just wasn't enough, so they'd play SWAT exclusively and hide in corners then ban grenades when they were naded out of said corners.

They're basically children.

[Alandsmj]

The reason for FO being king in AQ is the mechanic how PSE Burst works. If they change it so that enemies just spawns around you instead of further and further away from you, back in those days I see no reason Fo would not be treated like a zondeel slave just like RA like a WB slave and Melee users will still complain because the death rate of forces suddenly skyrocket since they have to Zondeel without moving too much (just like RAs in those times before the many buffs they finally get).

King in VHTA? Who cares.

[LonelyGaruga]

while that is true, balance wise the more the two classes can be differentiated the better.
as far as whether or not the the nerf takes much away or not, that depends on how much its nerfed. -10% or -20% wont be too big a deal, -50%~ completely guts it. im betting on something more like the latter because sega gonna sega, even with the new guy.

Don't really need to differentiate them here. Tech use is tech use, whatever class it is, especially with crafting in play. And it isn't like Elysion itself is getting nerfed, it just happens to be the sole recipient of Innocent Form. The potential can and likely will be seen on other weapons, and the nerf can be seen as a preemptive course of action for when that happens.

I don't see the nerf being worse than being reduced to 75-80%. Elysion was mad buffed, went from like 14% to 100%. I can't see them retracting such a massive buff, and even 75% would be good. I think 50% would be usable (not good, just usable), lower than that would just be stupid though.

[pkemr4]

Goodness. Why so much hatred for fire techs. It's usefulness is somewhat limited to TD1/TD2 with a fully coordinated Fire FO group. In fact Light/Wind/Ice and even Dark are all viable in these two quests and I have to point out that 9000 damage efficient Ilmegid is still doable with average gear, the right skill tree and a TE.

I don't even use fire anymore and put the only set of Fire rod/talis on market because it is NOT THE ONLY LINE OF TECHS THAT MATTERS. In the new map (where most new weapons/units come from) Dark does a much better job and in the next map the enemies will probably be weak to Ice. Ultimate? Fire/Wind/Ice/Lightning probably will be THE element since the tend to release the three "starting area" as a testing ground. And see, fire is only like 1/4 of that.

And even then you have multi3-razan with a power of 900 that cost like 20PP, the efficient Sazan that still does good damage without an EL but with a Wind talis. Concentrated Ragrant hits like a horse and Efficient Grant never misses one weakspot (Unlike Sazan and Razan) and cost far less PP. Vanilla Gigrant actually has a Power of 660 because 550 is for 5 hits while the actual TC has 6hits. And there is Icefang/Effecient Barta, Gibarta, Multi3 Rabarta, and Narta still hits hard with an Ice build.

But do they steal thunder from melee classes? I don't think so. Even in TD1 and TD2 people nowadays kill bosses with a WB in their butt fast enough that I really don't care if it's a melee or ranged as long as they are not stupid. Mobs are just easy enough for most classes with decent gear and the right mind as long as they DON'T LEECH. For the most difficult TD3, it's a collecting and Gundam game. Fire or no fire I don't care. Instead the thing I care most is if there is a RA with 4 WB, and if the group knows when to defend the tower instead of chasing after every boss.

So please stop these nonsense. And play an FO for real for once. If it's possible, I just hope you guys play a non-EL FO before Ilmegid in EP2, where their damage potential is suspected by most of the population.

force shouldnt revolve around using crafting for the techs to be usable.

[infiniteeverlasting]

UGGHHH WHY SEGA WHY??? I didnt even get to unlock dat meteor cudgel potential yet and you just hafto make me miss out on all the OP-ness

[Kondibon]

force shouldnt revolve around using crafting for the techs to be usable.I feel like this wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't so damn tedious to unlock tech crafts.

Hell, if it was easier, then tech crafting would be more forgiving than skill trees. >_>


UGGHHH WHY SEGA WHY??? I didnt even get to unlock dat meteor cudgel potential yet and you just hafto make me miss out on all the OP-ness
The trick is to not jump onto the dick of whatever the FotM is, as soon as it shows up. Especially something requiring so much investment.

[LonelyGaruga]

force shouldnt revolve around using crafting for the techs to be usable.

Only some of that post was addressing crafted techs though. Crafted techs are just more relevant because every tech user should be crafting their techs.


I feel like this wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't so damn tedious to unlock tech crafts.

I agree. Slogging through the unlocks feels like such a waste of time when you're already going to spend a lot of time trying to get a good merit/demerit value on each tech. Surprised they haven't nerfed the requirements for each unlock.

[Xaelouse]

UGGHHH WHY SEGA WHY??? I didnt even get to unlock dat meteor cudgel potential yet and you just hafto make me miss out on all the OP-ness

Good news, it's still gonna be useful for chaos riser gear upkeep.
Either way, the tornadoes were meant to be added damage while you're using -PAs-, not your entire playstyle.
The potential will still be good for that too, btw.
Whoever drops out from using meteor cudgel after this is an idiot

[BIG OLAF]

UGGHHH WHY SEGA WHY??? I didnt even get to unlock dat meteor cudgel potential yet and you just hafto make me miss out on all the OP-ness

You're not going miss out on anything.

[Sizustar]

Only some of that post was addressing crafted techs though. Crafted techs are just more relevant because every tech user should be crafting their techs.



I agree. Slogging through the unlocks feels like such a waste of time when you're already going to spend a lot of time trying to get a good merit/demerit value on each tech. Surprised they haven't nerfed the requirements for each unlock.

You're not supposed to unlock by yourself, same as the team tree, you're supposed to do it with friends.

[infiniteeverlasting]

Good news, it's still gonna be useful for chaos riser gear upkeep.
Either way, the tornadoes were meant to be added damage while you're using -PAs-, not your entire playstyle.
The potential will still be good for that too, btw.
Whoever drops out from using meteor cudgel after this is an idiot

oh, okay...
nvm then, only one more level left until i can equip so i still have some level grinding to do as well :P
i mean for double sabers though, they're mostly used for mobbing from what i have seen, if you dont just use it for deadly archer spam that is. So anything that helps chaos riser is a thumbs up!

[Rakurai]

Glad I didn't decide to make a second Elysion now.

Though I wish they'd make a decent weapon that boosts ice damage already...

[Kondibon]

You're not supposed to unlock by yourself, same as the team tree, you're supposed to do it with friends.It's not like that with weapon or unit crafting though. They have an actual progression with the next levels unlocked as you finish the current ones (or earliers if you're working on multiple weapons).

[dr apocalipsis]

So, after 2 full years of being fucking unable to get a stupid Elysion, spamming both Elder and TD1 with max boosters each time, I got one a couple of months ago. When Wind Elysion wasn't already the only thing to survive as a caster on SH thanks to the introduction of Il~ techs.

Then, they announce a mag level cap raise that could help me equip it as FoTe adding 25 s ata to my old unused T-mag.

So I did this, mostly for fun, yeah, but this nevertherless, 1 week ago:

http://i.imgur.com/pL6ALFb.jpg

Thing still collecting dust at storage.

Thanks sega.

~ Nº1 Unluckiest guy in PSO2 ~

[Arkanoid]

So, after 2 full years of being fucking unable to get a stupid Elysion, spamming both Elder and TD1 with max boosters each time, I got one a couple of months ago. When Wind Elysion wasn't already the only thing to survive as a caster on SH thanks to the introduction of Il~ techs.

Then, they announce a mag level cap raise that could help me equip it as FoTe adding 25 s ata to my old unused T-mag.

So I did this, mostly for fun, yeah, but this nevertherless, 1 week ago:

http://i.imgur.com/pL6ALFb.jpg

Thing still collecting dust at storage.

Thanks sega.

~ Nº1 Unluckiest guy in PSO2 ~

Yeah but now your other one sold before it becomes worthless after the nerf. Now come online for Elder.

Oops nevermind, no elder cuz people are wrong. Didn't think they would have one so close to maint.

[LonelyGaruga]

You're not supposed to unlock by yourself, same as the team tree, you're supposed to do it with friends.

That...what? No. If I need to craft the same tech tons of times just to get a good merit/demerit, I'm not dragging a bunch of other people into it. This isn't weapon/unit crafting where you just need to hit a particular level to get the same results, crafting techs is something you do yourself.

Crafting is nothing like the team tree anyway.

[ShinMaruku]

That's a lot of collateral damage if that's all that they were trying to nerf. Why not just nerf uncharged Namegid?

Because sega is stupid as hell.

[LonelyGaruga]

Namegid is getting its recipe nerfed because the notation for the recipe wasn't adjusted for EP3. The recipe adds twice as much damage as it did before the adjustments. Innocent Form is used for a lot more than just Namegid anyway.

[UnLucky]

Lastly, the nerf for Innocent Form, while hurting Elysion, also makes it less OP if it was, say, on a Rod.

Or just anything that isn't a wand.

Longer casting animation, lower T-Atk, higher PP cost (no charge revival), and it always had lower damage since you essentially have no potential and can't get Tech Charge or Weak S Charge.

An uncharged tech from a wand is about 40% the time of a 1s charged tech from anything else.

So if it drops below 80% power overall (50% natural and 1.6x from the potential) then it's less than double the DPS for double the PP cost. That means it's worse than an equivalent rod with no potential if we consider time/power/PP as directly comparable.

Of course it was especially good for Nabarta since it can't be charged no matter what, Namegid since it takes 5x as long to charge, and Ilbarta since you get to the final cast way sooner, but all three of those techs have been or will be nerfed.

[Rehal]

That...what? No. If I need to craft the same tech tons of times just to get a good merit/demerit, I'm not dragging a bunch of other people into it. This isn't weapon/unit crafting where you just need to hit a particular level to get the same results, crafting techs is something you do yourself.

Crafting is nothing like the team tree anyway.

Sorry but no, most people only need one specific kind of the tech craft, usually the 3rd level of them.

You aren't going to just craft the same tech tons of times to get a good merit/demerit one, you'll need to craft hundreds times of tech customization that you never want to use to first unlock the recipe you want. Only then you are really getting on the craft the same tech over a tons time to get a good merit/demerit.

Say you need a damage boost safoie craft, you then proceed to craft the first recipe of pp reduction safoie over and over just to unlock the first level of the damage boost safoie.

Then you try to craft the newly unlocked safoie recipe and OH somehow you got multiples great success out of it. Too bad though even with max great success craft of the level 1 one they all are trashes when compared to a normal craft level 3 version of it.

See where its going? You'd first need to unlock the recipe, and it will be just you throwing money to do just that, most of the time you won't get any of the craft you want during the process of unlocking even with dual great success. Of course there are certain tech craft that you only need a level 1 one like Effecient Sazan or Quick Sazonde for increased SE rate.

Sure you can unlock recipe and craft tech for yourself, but it is much better when you have people to help you with that process and become a crafter for everyone.

[Alenoir]

You're not supposed to unlock by yourself, same as the team tree, you're supposed to do it with friends.

A friend do not drag their friends into this shithole known as tech custom unlock.

I mean, are you seriously asking your friends to throw 20k and 8 tech discs at you per custom to produce some random Lv2 disc that may not even be good, just so you can unlock Lv3 sooner?

[UnLucky]

A friend do not drag their friends into this shithole known as tech custom unlock.

I mean, are you seriously asking your friends to throw 20k and 8 tech discs at you per custom to produce some random Lv2 disc that may not even be good, just so you can unlock Lv3 sooner?

And instead make them do all of that on their own from the ground up?

[gigawuts]

itt: friends never help friends

holy shit some people are passive aggressive angry about this game to the max

[dr apocalipsis]

Friends of PSOW, I need help with crafting. About to hit lvl.40.

Please help me.

[Cyhiwraith]

And instead make them do all of that on their own from the ground up?

No, screw that, you level up my crafting for me and you level up yours on your own!

Also, you gimmie all your liliparum or w/e it's called.

[Xaeris]

Yeah, it's not really practical to pool resources into one person for tech crafting. If that person gets banned, quits playing or even just takes a break from the game, all that accumulated experience becomes worthless to you. Self-sufficiency is the name of the game here.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, it's not really practical to pool resources into one person for tech crafting. If that person gets banned, quits playing or even just takes a break from the game, all that accumulated experience becomes worthless to you. Self-sufficiency is the name of the game here.

You have to admit it really varies case-by-case though.

Me? I clock in enough hours and completionism that I may as well do my own.

Some of my friends? They sign in two, three, maybe up to five times a week. They have shit they're doing, and PSO2 is not even close to a priority.

But they still want tech and item crafting.

So what should they do? Should they put in a shitload of work for a few techs, or come to me? Should they fully invest into an element from scratch, or throw some low level crafts at me to get me up to the level they want to use?

I think it's reasonable to say that it's more sensible for them to just go to their friend with better levels. For them it's me. For others it's someone else. Not everyone should be told to build up their own crafting from scratch.

[n_n]

Fire FO seriously needs to be nerfed.

I'm not asking Sega to nuke it completely, but please at least revert it back to pre-ep3 ... even though it was already pretty OP back then, it's completely ridiculous now. Just look at it in TD series -- the class setup just wipes everything and makes all other classes look useless in the process lol.

Also, they really need to adjust some of the recipes because +power -status effect is dumb ... there's no real loss there.

[pkemr4]

is Gifoie and Rafoie the new meta for TD?

[Cyhiwraith]

Fire FO seriously needs to be nerfed.

I'm not asking Sega to nuke it completely, but please at least revert it back to pre-ep3 ... even though it was already pretty OP back then, it's completely ridiculous now. Just look at it in TD series -- the class setup just wipes everything and makes all other classes look useless in the process lol.

Also, they really need to adjust some of the recipes because +power -status effect is dumb ... there's no real loss there.

You people need to stop bashing fire or you're gonna get... 8-) BURNED LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Oh wait, no your not cause status effect down power up :-o

[milranduil]

All the 11*s that Elder dropped when Elysion was implemented were multi-class the same way Elysion is. That isn't a problem. Neither is the nerf. It will not take away much from Techer, just make it less effective.

Actually, it guts TeHu/Fi/Br's potential from killing many of the game's bosses efficiently if the nerf is 25% of elysion's and say 15% of namegid's power. Elysion namegid was one of the only things Techer had going for itself when it came to high HP mobs/bosses. The nerf is going to force Techer to have to go back to using wind tree a fair amount of the time as well as forcing TeBr to become brutally dependent on Banish Arrow + Nazan/Ragrants in any hopes of doing respectable damage to bosses again.


is Gifoie and Rafoie the new meta for TD?

Safoie > gifoie for organized TD. More instant burst reducing the likelihood of stuff escaping. Rafoie otherwise, yes.

[Xaelouse]

Is it really that OP though, or the only thing saving FO from being mediocre again? Is it making FO gameplay overly centralized like pre-nerf il megid did? Legit questions
You gotta examine these things for each and every area of the game, not for some 5 TD1 runs mumbo-jumbo not everyone cares about. Or Fire-weak TAs. :l

[milranduil]

Is it really that OP though, or the only thing saving FO from being mediocre again? Is it making FO gameplay overly centralized like pre-nerf il megid did? Legit questions

It's not centralized op in regards to 1 tech, but 1 element. All of the fire techs are broken as fuck. Lightning techs do a hell of a lot of damage, but most don't have reduced charge time except Zonde IIRC which makes it a little more balanced. Fire techs all get at least 50% reduced charge time, more if you have reduced chg on say gifoie for example.

[Xaeris]

You have to admit it really varies case-by-case though.

Me? I clock in enough hours and completionism that I may as well do my own.

Some of my friends? They sign in two, three, maybe up to five times a week. They have shit they're doing, and PSO2 is not even close to a priority.

But they still want tech and item crafting.

So what should they do? Should they put in a shitload of work for a few techs, or come to me? Should they fully invest into an element from scratch, or throw some low level crafts at me to get me up to the level they want to use?

I think it's reasonable to say that it's more sensible for them to just go to their friend with better levels. For them it's me. For others it's someone else. Not everyone should be told to build up their own crafting from scratch.

At that level of playtime, I suppose it does make more sense to use tech frags to outsource work via visiphone than it does to try and build your own capability. But I would still stay it's unwise to pool resources into someone else's development. Hell, considering the finite resources that would come from such limited playtime, it's even more unwise.

[GALEFORCE]

I don't really see a case for not nerfing elysion, tbh. We all complained about it when they released (or megabuffed rather) its potential. Instead of fixing the core mechanic of uncharged techs, they applied a band-aid. Classic pso2 balancing BS right there. They need to make uncharged techs viable without elysion, and the first step is nerfing elysion. I hope they nerf it into the ground (100% -> ~30% like someone mentioned before) and re-visit uncharged techs on an individual basis.

And they really should have adjusted the recipes when they adjusted balance and tech power notation for ep3. I somehow doubt they're gonna go through them all in one update though.

[milranduil]

It's sega, so they won't revisit uncharged techs and you know it. Therefore nerfing Elysion fixes nothing at all and Techer is fucked. FO will remain perfectly fine.

[Sanguine2009]

I don't really see a case for not nerfing elysion, tbh. We all complained about it when they released (or megabuffed rather) its potential. Instead of fixing the core mechanic of uncharged techs, they applied a band-aid. Classic pso2 balancing BS right there. They need to make uncharged techs viable without elysion, and the first step is nerfing elysion. I hope they nerf it into the ground (100% -> ~30% like someone mentioned before) and re-visit uncharged techs on an individual basis.

And they really should have adjusted the recipes when they adjusted balance and tech power notation for ep3. I somehow doubt they're gonna go through them all in one update though.

lets face it, sega wont do anything to make uncharged techs useful. and in the meantime techer is once again awful at everything but zondeel>wand wack.

you must be a force. you wouldnt see anything wrong with gutting techer....

[UnLucky]

In two years Force will get Normal Tech Advance 2: 15% damage for 10SP, but NTA1 will still be 10%.

[gigawuts]

If techer is fucked (not arguing either way) it's because they had 3 halfbaked ideas for it, implemented all of them poorly, and called it fine because of force's rank in the meta.

Tech masteries on a primarily melee class? No PP Revival or gap-closer PAs? Split damage type? Wands randomly boosting only tech damage or only striking damage? Then there's the other plethora of problems that took a year and a half to address.

The whole class needs a rework from the ground up and the first thing that needs to go is it being designed as force's bitch first, and a standalone class second.

I'm not saying it can't be effective (boy can it), but there are obvious issues.

[Sanguine2009]

If techer is fucked (not arguing either way) it's because they had 3 halfbaked ideas for it, implemented all of them poorly, and called it fine.

Tech masteries on a primarily melee class? No PP Revival or gap-closer PAs? Split damage type? Wands randomly boosting only tech damage or only striking damage?

The whole class needs a rework from the ground up and the first thing that needs to go is it being designed as force's bitch.

techer WAS in a really good place when ep3 hit though, not op, not useless, but solidly mid tier. its melee was decent and could it cast passably with elysion for things that moved too much, were too far away, or otherwise not possible to get near. it was ok for once at bosses.

now we are going back to ep2 standards and straight back to bottom tier.

[Atmius]

Then, they announce a mag level cap raise that could help me equip it as FoTe adding 25 s ata to my old unused T-mag.
They're only raising the mag level cap to 190, not 200, so you wont be able to dump 25 points unless said t-atk mag isn't max level.

[elryan]

http://i.imgur.com/SN5MTZD.png

[Sanguine2009]

http://i.imgur.com/SN5MTZD.png

gunner got other aspects buffed to mitigate it some, i wont deny that they are in general weaker but they were not completely gutted. nor do they have aspects of their class being balanced around an entirely separate class because lets face it, this nerf is being done because of fo, not te.

[Cyhiwraith]

I don't get why everyone wants everything to ALWAYS be nerfed to be even, why not ever buff other things? It's always "OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP NERF NERF NERF NERF" and when something people like gets nerfed they bitch. Rather than nerf fire, why not buff other techs? Why not just make it so techs can at most 3 shot mobs and melee 1 shot mobs, that's what everyone seems to want. That and 20 sec non-stop stagger boss kills.

Only when something is truly getting nerfed people get pissed. Talk about nerfs all day and say how bad you want them then bitch when they happen and then beg for buffs. So silly, techs will never be balanced so long as there is talent tree that only buffs 1 out of 6 skills.

[Alandsmj]

So EP3 TE suddenly becomes bottom tier/worthless/useless/ without an EL?
I have no idea EL has become such a trend among TEs or I would have not crafted/grind the rainbow set of wands with talents like blahblahblah killers. Oh, and all these concentrated crafting. What a waste of MST!

[yoshiblue]

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h368/Redmage64/Photons_zpsbe4c3b62.png

[Sanguine2009]

So EP3 TE suddenly becomes bottom tier/worthless/useless/ without an EL?

it loses most of its ranged options and some of its bossing options yes.

its like if you played fighter and suddenly half your good PAs were useless and the few you can still use effectively cost twice as much PP while requiring charging to use at all. its a massive nerf to the class in general

[milranduil]

So EP3 TE suddenly becomes bottom tier/worthless/useless/ without an EL?
I have no idea EL has become such a trend among TEs or I would have not crafted/grind the rainbow set of wands with talents like blahblahblah killers. Oh, and all these concentrated crafting. What a waste of MST!

It has always depended on elysion for bossing pre and post ep3. It was and remains a strong mob killer, that hasn't changed and you should still use those enemy latent wands for doing so. TE doesn't need a rainbow set for elysion, no elemental conversion. You use elysion for casting, that's it. 50% and done.

[LonelyGaruga]

Sure you can unlock recipe and craft tech for yourself, but it is much better when you have people to help you with that process and become a crafter for everyone.

OK, I had to read what Sizustar said again. What I thought Sizustar was saying was that you're supposed to request from other people. Which doesn't make sense. But if you're getting requests from other people, then sure, that makes sense.

But it's also pretty much synonymous with replying to a complaint about pub TDs by telling them to run with friends. Doesn't make the pub runs suck less.


Actually, it guts TeHu/Fi/Br's potential from killing many of the game's bosses efficiently if the nerf is 25% of elysion's and say 15% of namegid's power. Elysion namegid was one of the only things Techer had going for itself when it came to high HP mobs/bosses. The nerf is going to force Techer to have to go back to using wind tree a fair amount of the time as well as forcing TeBr to become brutally dependent on Banish Arrow + Nazan/Ragrants in any hopes of doing respectable damage to bosses again.

Didn't I reply to you about this already, or was that someone else? Well, whatever.

Techer's ability to melee was hugely buffed with EP3. Its melee damage is extremely viable for bossing now. An Elysion nerf does not remotely gut Techer's ability to boss. Saying that is a gross exaggeration. You do not need to resort to doing any of that stuff.

And Ilbarta was better than Namegid for that stuff anyway, so Namegid nerf isn't important. The only relevant thing being nerfed is Elysion's potential, which isn't a significant loss for bossing.


It's sega, so they won't revisit uncharged techs and you know it. Therefore nerfing Elysion fixes nothing at all and Techer is fucked. FO will remain perfectly fine.

Techer is fucked? Elysion's arguably more important for Force than it is Techer.


lets face it, sega wont do anything to make uncharged techs useful. and in the meantime techer is once again awful at everything but zondeel>wand wack.

you must be a force. you wouldnt see anything wrong with gutting techer....

Techer has had solid melee ever since EP3 hit. It's been talked about as a potential bandwagon, and there have been comments that Techer (and Force) majority might be best for TD runs. And Elysion getting nerfed, something that has no bearing on Techer's melee ability, is going to reduce Techer to Zondeel > wand whacking.

Seriously? Do you even play Techer? In case it isn't blatantly obvious, I do, and let me tell you, Techer, right now, is the best it has ever been. It has incredibly solid melee damage and perma Wand Lovers for neverending Step action. Both its mobbing and bossing capabilities have never been better. Nerfing Elysion is going to have an impact, but holy shit Techer is not going back to the stone ages just because it takes a hit to tech usage. It is not a one trick pony with some techs on the side anymore, and all you people insisting that's the case seriously need to pick up the game again, get some decent gear, and realize that Techer is really good now on its own merits, not because it can pull some nifty shenanigans with Elysion that Force could do better.


If techer is fucked (not arguing either way) it's because they had 3 halfbaked ideas for it, implemented all of them poorly, and called it fine because of force's rank in the meta.

Tech masteries on a primarily melee class? No PP Revival or gap-closer PAs? Split damage type? Wands randomly boosting only tech damage or only striking damage? Then there's the other plethora of problems that took a year and a half to address.

The whole class needs a rework from the ground up and the first thing that needs to go is it being designed as force's bitch first, and a standalone class second.

I'm not saying it can't be effective (boy can it), but there are obvious issues.

Most of this stuff isn't even true in the first place. If you're going to insist on changes being necessary, at least learn about the class you're talking about.

Tech masteries: It is a melee/tech hybrid. This isn't an issue.
PP Charge Revival: Hurts, but forces players not to rely solely on techs. Sega clearly doesn't want to recycle skills either, so this one is basically "It doesn't get a Force skill".
Gap closers: Techs cover this (both range and Ilzonde), and Wands can do step cancels very easily by holding down a tech. Mobility is not an issue.
Split damage: This one isn't entirely true, and even if it was straighforward like this it wouldn't necessarily be a problem in the first place if handled right (and, imo, it hasn't been a problem). Wand swings benefit from both S-ATK and T-ATK, techs are just T-ATK. Run T-ATK, both benefit. Easy.
Tech/striking damage: Do you mean potentials? There are a load of wands with potentials that boost all types of damage.
Force's bitch: EP3 fixed this. They don't need to change it, they already did.
Techer's effectiveness: It's effective now.

EP3's been out for nearly a month and people still don't realize Techer's been buffed from worst class to easily competing with all the others. Even people that play Techer. How slow can you get?


techer WAS in a really good place when ep3 hit though, not op, not useless, but solidly mid tier. its melee was decent and could it cast passably with elysion for things that moved too much, were too far away, or otherwise not possible to get near. it was ok for once at bosses.

now we are going back to ep2 standards and straight back to bottom tier.

What? I flinch lock most bosses to death with my melee now, and I'm 2s without affixed weapons. And what's with the past tense? They haven't touched its melee at all. And Elysion's only good for some techs anyway, it's not like charged techs are unusable. Fire and Light techs are in a really good spot, you certainly won't be using them with Elysion.

Elysion's usefulness for Techer is being severely overstated right now.


it loses most of its ranged options and some of its bossing options yes.

its like if you played fighter and suddenly half your good PAs were useless and the few you can still use effectively cost twice as much PP while requiring charging to use at all. its a massive nerf to the class in general

That isn't accurate in the slightest. There is no cost penalty and uncharged techs will still be viable off Elysion. It isn't a massive nerf in any form or fashion even if Elysion was the sole usable casting weapon a Techer had access to. Which it isn't.


It has always depended on elysion for bossing pre and post ep3.

OK, I know I've repeated myself a lot in this post because I write up a reply, look at the thread, and there's another post to reply to, and all of them feel relevant to reply to, even though my reply to half of them is the same.

But seriously. Techer does not depend on Elysion for bossing anymore. Just look at some nico videos and you'd find only a fraction of them actually feature Elysion. Because its melee is really good now.

Are people like hung up on the fact that wands have no PAs, and assume it can't have good melee as a result? Because wow it's like no one even tried wand melee for bossing here.

[Chdata]

as long as you can do like 6k damage in one hit regularly you can lock down most bosses, which wand smacks alone can do now

[GALEFORCE]

lets face it, sega wont do anything to make uncharged techs useful. and in the meantime techer is once again awful at everything but zondeel>wand wack.

you must be a force. you wouldnt see anything wrong with gutting techer....

They've been on a roll lately. They get a little bit of trust from me at least.

I'm playing a 50/47 bandwagon te/br in SH right now, and I'm loving it. I can't even use any wand other than (0 potential) elysion, and I can't use my good units for another 10 levels, but the damage from wand whacks is pretty damn good as is. I'm a little sad I didn't get to experience flinging uncharged techs to make up for range issues, but I'm still happy with my techer.

A bit of a tangent, but I feel like techer could still use some PAs. Like, give it a really weak serpent air just to give wand some airtime to float whack weak points. I'd love that. Any melee gunslash PA could be lazily converted into a wand PA like this if they wanted to, and I wouldn't complain.

[milranduil]

Didn't I reply to you about this already, or was that someone else? Well, whatever.

Techer's ability to melee was hugely buffed with EP3. Its melee damage is extremely viable for bossing now. An Elysion nerf does not remotely gut Techer's ability to boss. Saying that is a gross exaggeration. You do not need to resort to doing any of that stuff.

My uncharged namegid does 100k to non-dark weak points. No wand smack compares to that DPS with PPC/PB/PPJ. End of story.


And Ilbarta was better than Namegid for that stuff anyway, so Namegid nerf isn't important. The only relevant thing being nerfed is Elysion's potential, which isn't a significant loss for bossing.

For Te, Ilbarta, pre-Ep3, was only better than Namegid against ice weak enemies. Not otherwise.


Techer is fucked? Elysion's arguably more important for Force than it is Techer.

Not even responding to this.


Seriously? Do you even play Techer? In case it isn't blatantly obvious, I do, and let me tell you, Techer, right now, is the best it has ever been. It has incredibly solid melee damage and perma Wand Lovers for neverending Step action. Both its mobbing and bossing capabilities have never been better. Nerfing Elysion is going to have an impact, but holy shit Techer is not going back to the stone ages just because it takes a hit to tech usage. It is not a one trick pony with some techs on the side anymore, and all you people insisting that's the case seriously need to pick up the game again, get some decent gear, and realize that Techer is really good now on its own merits, not because it can pull some nifty shenanigans with Elysion that Force could do better.

I'll list my equips for you so you can realize that even with the best gear, whacks don't compare to uncharged Namegid spam (regardless of whether Zanverse is present I might add).
ノワルウォンド 10503 ice/dark Malluda/Pow3/Tech3/(Abi3 on ice)
カリーノコラウ 10503 light Malluda/Pow3/Tech3
イエーデクラブ 10503 fire Malluda/Pow3/Tech3
アクルカータ 10503 ice Malluda/Pow3/Tech3
ガーディトーチ 10503 lightning Ex8 Malluda/Pow3/Tech3
エリュシオン 10503 light Elder/Tech3/TechBoost/Spirita3 (casting only)

サイキ units Elder/Tech3/Spirita3/TechBoost/SummerFever

I have maxed Wand Lovers/Reactor/Gear, Shifta Strike, full dark masteries, EWH, PPC10, PP Restore 8, TE 10* mastery, Weakstance skills 30/30, Avg stance 20/30, Attack Adv 5/5. If I'm missing something, please let me know.

I'll settle it this way. Go get a 4:XX Nab2 run with wand whacking only (feel free to use Zanverse, Zondeel, Shifta, Razan/Ilzan for knocking down). Let me know how that goes.


What? I flinch lock most bosses to death with my melee now, and I'm 2s without affixed weapons. And what's with the past tense? They haven't touched its melee at all. And Elysion's only good for some techs anyway, it's not like charged techs are unusable. Fire and Light techs are in a really good spot, you certainly won't be using them with Elysion.
Stun locking is irrelevant if its slower than Elysion Namegid/Nazan/Ilbarta/Nabarta + Zanverse


But seriously. Techer does not depend on Elysion for bossing anymore. Just look at some nico videos and you'd find only a fraction of them actually feature Elysion. Because its melee is really good now.

Are people like hung up on the fact that wands have no PAs, and assume it can't have good melee as a result? Because wow it's like no one even tried wand melee for bossing here.

Refer to my first quote in this post.

EDIT: Tell me you can outDPS Namegid used in this vid (my senpai's nab2 run).
[spoiler-box]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_53XP3dAQw
[/spoiler-box]

[Aurorra]

I personaly always thought Elysion needed a nerf. It was pretty dumb locking an entire playstyle behind a rare and expensive weapon. That said, it's also dumb to nerf Elysion and not buff normal tech adv. >_>

There should be build enabling weapons, they don't need to nerf Elysion, they need to make more weapons like it (Build enabling that is, not necessarily +uncharged damage).

[elryan]

Tell me you can outDPS Namegid used in this vid
[spoiler-box]
Techer Nab2 4:xx (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_53XP3dAQw)
[/spoiler-box]


Well that explains why Namegid and Elysion are getting a nerf bat. :tea:


Even though RA can kill bosses in times equal to or faster than that with nerfed SatCannon or Homing Emission? Ok....

EDIT: You see, killing bosses in 2-3 PA / tech is not normal. Ranger is the only class in the game with over 455% multiplier, nothing came close to that. Everyone knows Weak Bullet break or make the game, period.

Everyone is fixated with easy-win button (remember Shunka?) that upon a nerf they'll cry out loud about it.

Gunner took a heavy nerf and I'm still maining it. Likewise, real TE will keep maining TE. Play what class you like, not blindly following FOTM.

[milranduil]

Well that explains why Namegid and Elysion is getting a nerf bat. :tea:

Even though RA can kill bosses in times equal to or faster than that with nerfed SatCannon or Homing Emission? Ok....

[LonelyGaruga]

@adios:

I did not say that melee Techer does not need techs. This is the same as saying a tech oriented Techer does not need melee. Can you get 4:XX using only techs?

I did not say techs were better DPS than melee. I said they were extremely viable, and thus a nerf to Elysion does not gut it. Gutting implies it's useless. It is not.

I did not say stun locking was relevant to fast kills. I bring up that as evidence to support that its melee is better than "OK", and a nerf to Elysion does not make it useless.

The only thing that accurately contends with something I said was about Ilbarta, and quite frankly, every recent TA (dunno about the private TA group videos, if I'm wrong then please correct me) uploaded on nico since Ilbarta was implemented used Ilbarta and not Namegid, even with level 3 crafting in play, even after EP3 nerfed Ilbarta and made Namegid silly. Whether that's an oversight and Namegid is better or not, I wouldn't know. But I'm not seeing Namegid, and I'm not seeing it faster than Ilbarta.

In conversation, I have seen other people compare Techer's DPS to PP Convert Nafoie from a fire tree Force, both properly geared. In other words, it's better, because Techer's melee isn't on a timer. That simply cannot be called unviable, and a nerf to Elysion simply cannot be called gutting Techer when you have that as a fallback option. If melee that good is considered "OK" and Elysion getting nerfed leaves Techer gutted and useless and only capable of Zondeel > wand whack on large mobs, there is simply no room for discussion here.

[milranduil]

@adios:

I did not say that melee Techer does not need techs. This is the same as saying a tech oriented Techer does not need melee. Can you get 4:XX using only techs?

I did not say techs were better DPS than melee. I said they were extremely viable, and thus a nerf to Elysion does not gut it. Gutting implies it's useless. It is not.

I did not say stun locking was relevant to fast kills. I bring up that as evidence to support that its melee is better than "OK", and a nerf to Elysion does not make it useless.

The only thing that accurately contends with something I said was about Ilbarta, and quite frankly, every recent TA (dunno about the private TA group videos, if I'm wrong then please correct me) uploaded on nico since Ilbarta was implemented used Ilbarta and not Namegid, even with level 3 crafting in play, even after EP3 nerfed Ilbarta and made Namegid silly. Whether that's an oversight and Namegid is better or not, I wouldn't know. But I'm not seeing Namegid, and I'm not seeing it faster than Ilbarta.

In conversation, I have seen other people compare Techer's DPS to PP Convert Nafoie from a fire tree Force, both properly geared. In other words, it's better, because Techer's melee isn't on a timer. That simply cannot be called unviable, and a nerf to Elysion simply cannot be called gutting Techer when you have that as a fallback option. If melee that good is considered "OK" and Elysion getting nerfed leaves Techer gutted and useless and only capable of Zondeel > wand whack on large mobs, there is simply no room for discussion here.


You mean something else when you say viable and when I say viable. When I say viable, I mean it can compete for the best times with other classes. When you say viable, it means it can kill mob/boss A B C with ease. These are not the same thing.

Show me those Ilbarta vids, please!

Edit: Let's stop beating around the bush then shall we? Go make a 4min nab2 without Elysion. Is that fair?

[LonelyGaruga]

Nab II 3:58 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24419075)
Sanctum 5:59 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24405287)

No Ilbarta, but these two showcase melee well.

Grand Prix qualifier 1:58 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24418581)
Grand Prix finals 1:49 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24347115)

Not mine, but probably goes without saying.

[Sanguine2009]

Techer's ability to melee was hugely buffed with EP3. Its melee damage is extremely viable for bossing now. An Elysion nerf does not remotely gut Techer's ability to boss. Saying that is a gross exaggeration. You do not need to resort to doing any of that stuff.
while its true that techer's melee is great now, its melee is still ill suited for some bosses as the sole means of damage due to either the boss moving around or its weak points being out of reach, uncharged techs filled the role of keeping dps up and being a good pp dump.



And Ilbarta was better than Namegid for that stuff anyway, so Namegid nerf isn't important. The only relevant thing being nerfed is Elysion's potential, which isn't a significant loss for bossing.

il barta was already nerfed into the ground unless you run a full ice tree on fo. its not worth spending the time and pp to build up on techer unless the enemy is already weak to ice. however, you are right that a nerf to namegid by itself is not too significant overall.



Techer is fucked? Elysion's arguably more important for Force than it is Techer.


Fo has tons of other casting options that are viable, even with the same techs elysion would be used with. techer lacks these due to a combination of lacking power in teching and lacking pp recovery while charging. without elysion most techs simply are not worth using for techer.



Techer has had solid melee ever since EP3 hit. It's been talked about as a potential bandwagon, and there have been comments that Techer (and Force) majority might be best for TD runs. And Elysion getting nerfed, something that has no bearing on Techer's melee ability, is going to reduce Techer to Zondeel > wand whacking.

Seriously? Do you even play Techer? In case it isn't blatantly obvious, I do, and let me tell you, Techer, right now, is the best it has ever been. It has incredibly solid melee damage and perma Wand Lovers for neverending Step action. Both its mobbing and bossing capabilities have never been better. Nerfing Elysion is going to have an impact, but holy shit Techer is not going back to the stone ages just because it takes a hit to tech usage. It is not a one trick pony with some techs on the side anymore, and all you people insisting that's the case seriously need to pick up the game again, get some decent gear, and realize that Techer is really good now on its own merits, not because it can pull some nifty shenanigans with Elysion that Force could do better.


it is in a really good place RIGHT NOW. it can cast and melee and generally is awesome.
however, if elysion is nerfed too much it very much becomes a one trick pony. all it will have left is wand melee. thats it. anything that is out of range or too mobile or is otherwise not possible to get to becomes 10x harder to kill due to no good ranged options and no viable gap closers besides step dashing(il zonde is only good for out of battle movement, its a poor gap closer in battle and ignites zondeel).



Most of this stuff isn't even true in the first place. If you're going to insist on changes being necessary, at least learn about the class you're talking about.

Tech masteries: It is a melee/tech hybrid. This isn't an issue.
i agree



PP Charge Revival: Hurts, but forces players not to rely solely on techs. Sega clearly doesn't want to recycle skills either, so this one is basically "It doesn't get a Force skill".

this pretty much kills techs in any role but support, elysion fixed that somewhat which is why its such a big deal for a techer, you cant have a hybrid without being able to at least passably use both types of attacks.
the are other ways sega could handle this issue, but its unlikely to be seen any time soon.



Gap closers: Techs cover this (both range and Ilzonde), and Wands can do step cancels very easily by holding down a tech. Mobility is not an issue.

mobility is a huge issue, learning to step cancel dash in battle becomes basically mandatory without effective techs. il zonde is not and never will be a viable gap closer in battle. either way you no longer have any effective way to hit weak points that cant be reached by jumping without techs.



Split damage: This one isn't entirely true, and even if it was straighforward like this it wouldn't necessarily be a problem in the first place if handled right (and, imo, it hasn't been a problem). Wand swings benefit from both S-ATK and T-ATK, techs are just T-ATK. Run T-ATK, both benefit. Easy.
i dont disagree, thats always been a perfectly viable option due to wand gear.



Tech/striking damage: Do you mean potentials? There are a load of wands with potentials that boost all types of damage.
again, no disagreement from me.



Force's bitch: EP3 fixed this. They don't need to change it, they already did.
which is why a key part of techer is getting nerfed because its a secondary part of force.


Techer's effectiveness: It's effective now.
right now? yeah its great. right now it has everything it needs and is balanced. wouldn't change a thing. after the nerf who knows? :-?



EP3's been out for nearly a month and people still don't realize Techer's been buffed from worst class to easily competing with all the others. Even people that play Techer. How slow can you get?

again, right now its great. but thats because right now its a viable hybrid. take away the teching half of it(which elysion is a big part of) and all it has is wand wacking which while it does good damage, it has limited(particularly vertical) range.



What? I flinch lock most bosses to death with my melee now, and I'm 2s without affixed weapons. And what's with the past tense? They haven't touched its melee at all. And Elysion's only good for some techs anyway, it's not like charged techs are unusable. Fire and Light techs are in a really good spot, you certainly won't be using them with Elysion.

Elysion's usefulness for Techer is being severely overstated right now.

that largely depends on the boss, not every boss can be flinched to death effectively. for some, techer will be just fine, for others it will kill much slower or have much more trouble killing.
with elysion's nerf you are basically restricted to wind techs or whatever other element you speced. everything else is too weak or costs too much or is too slow for the damage they deal. even then those that can be used effectively cost 25%~ more and are many times slower.



That isn't accurate in the slightest. There is no cost penalty and uncharged techs will still be viable off Elysion. It isn't a massive nerf in any form or fashion even if Elysion was the sole usable casting weapon a Techer had access to. Which it isn't.

its accurate, time spent charging techs is time not spent regening pp and/or hitting things with wands. the listed pp cost may not have increased but the effective one has. additionally and perhaps more significantly is the slower speed at which techs can be used resulting in a large decrease in dps when casting. overall you cant dump pp nearly as fast or as much which while not mandatory for bossing helps immensely vs certain types.

there is a reason you dont see many bio wands or element spec latent weapons, they have pure casting latents. latents that boost both aspects of techer(destroyer latents,EWH latents) or ones that provide new and effective options(of which elysion is the only one of atm) will always win out.



regardless, this nerf is not really warranted. its nowhere near the level of pre nerf shunka or fully specced prenerf il megid(that goes for fo using elysion too). if sega really wants to make a tech or two weaker they should just modify those techs uncharged power rather than potentially gutting the whole thing. if sega wants to weaken the latent so it can be made more common they should do what they did with the EWH and black heart, make a 2nd weaker version of the latent.

[HeyItsTHK]

Edit: Let's stop beating around the bush then shall we? Go make a 4min nab2 without Elysion. Is that fair?


Nab II 3:58 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24419075)
Sanctum 5:59 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24405287)

No Ilbarta, but these two showcase melee well.

Grand Prix qualifier 1:58 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24418581)
Grand Prix finals 1:49 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24347115)

Not mine, but probably goes without saying.

You didn't meet the "without Elysion" requirement.

Also as an aside, what are the voices used in the first two vids?

In any case yeah, I'm in the camp that thinks it's foolish to nerf Elysion (though who knows by how much) and not buff Normal Tech.


I don't get why everyone wants everything to ALWAYS be nerfed to be even, why not ever buff other things? It's always "OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP NERF NERF NERF NERF" and when something people like gets nerfed they bitch. Rather than nerf fire, why not buff other techs? Why not just make it so techs can at most 3 shot mobs and melee 1 shot mobs, that's what everyone seems to want. That and 20 sec non-stop stagger boss kills.

Only when something is truly getting nerfed people get pissed. Talk about nerfs all day and say how bad you want them then bitch when they happen and then beg for buffs. So silly, techs will never be balanced so long as there is talent tree that only buffs 1 out of 6 skills.

I've also been of this mind set. Don't nerf what's strong, buff what's weak. But what do I know? I'm not a game dev, just an aspiring one.

[milranduil]

Sanctum 5:59 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24405287)

This video is the -quintessential- example of why Elysion is necessary for Techer. You just disproved yourself by posting this video. Good job. Elysion >>>>> whacks for bossing.

[Kikikiki]

???????????

Pretty sure that was a response to the videos posted, not directed at yours.

Stop getting your pants up :wacko:

[milranduil]

Ohhhh I see now lol. It's been a long day ._.

[HeyItsTHK]

This video is the -quintessential- example of why Elysion is necessary for Techer. You just disproved yourself by posting this video. Good job. Elysion >>>>> whacks for bossing.


???????????

directed at the Nab 2 run Lonely posted. Elysion and Ilzan used on the Rockbear.

[milranduil]

directed at the Nab 2 run Lonely posted. Elysion and Ilzan used on the Rockbear.

Nazan, but yeah I see what you were directing at now. Edited post. Just goes to show even with how good full light spec Techer is for nab2 that it still needs Elysion to kill rockbear as quickly as possible.

[cheapgunner]

Just make a 45 sec duration with a 100 sec cooldown. Lets you dual wield a 2nd wand but negates wand reactor. So if your base S-atk is 800 and you have 2 wands each having 1k s-atk, you press the skill. Wand Reactor 1 wand gives you 2.2k s-atk but the new skill brings you to 2.8k s-atk, and make the attack speed about 1.3x faster while active and adds half the 2nd wands t-atk to your total. There, boss fights solved....

[milranduil]

Just make a 45 sec duration with a 100 sec cooldown. Lets you dual wield a 2nd wand but negates wand reactor. So if your base S-atk is 800 and you have 2 wands each having 1k s-atk, you press the skill. Wand Reactor 1 wand gives you 2.2k s-atk but the new skill brings you to 2.8k s-atk, and make the attack speed about 1.3x faster while active and adds half the 2nd wands t-atk to your total. There, boss fights solved....

You forgot that this is sega we're talking about. Wayyyyy too complicated for them.

[cheapgunner]

You forgot that this is sega we're talking about. Wayyyyy too complicated for them.

Your right. 30 sec dura and 90 sec cooldown. Double s-atk for wands. There, boss fights done.:]

[LonelyGaruga]

while its true that techer's melee is great now, its melee is still ill suited for some bosses as the sole means of damage due to either the boss moving around or its weak points being out of reach, uncharged techs filled the role of keeping dps up and being a good pp dump.

I agree that techs are great for a moving boss, but I don't agree that you need uncharged techs specifically. The majority of techs still require charging to be useful, Elysion or not. Charging isn't that bad, even without PP Charge Revival, and uncharged techs aren't that bad even if Elysion is nerfed. While crafting isn't a perfect solution, Ragrants is a .3s charge time at best, Gimegid is 0.9s by default and can be crafted to be 0.4s, and most techs have sub-1s crafts that make them easy to use.

Uncharged techs definitely have an important place for Techer, but charged techs aren't unusable. Force just does them a lot better than Techer.


il barta was already nerfed into the ground unless you run a full ice tree on fo. its not worth spending the time and pp to build up on techer unless the enemy is already weak to ice. however, you are right that a nerf to namegid by itself is not too significant overall.

Nerfed to the ground? I've been using Ilbarta just fine as Te/Fi. Not for damage specifically, but it's been extremely useful for bosses that move around a lot and are weak to Ice or have infection points. Now that PP Convert is extremely accessible, there's no reason not to be able to use it, and the damage really is not that bad for the final hit.

Useless for mobbing though, and yeah, I wouldn't use it on something not weak to Ice. Other techs or melee would be better at that point.


Fo has tons of other casting options that are viable, even with the same techs elysion would be used with. techer lacks these due to a combination of lacking power in teching and lacking pp recovery while charging. without elysion most techs simply are not worth using for techer.

OK, here's what I'm thinking. Force is a class specifically for just techs. With Elysion, several techs get more versatility or are just plain usable thanks to it. With Techer, you have melee in addition to tech usage. A nerf to tech usage in any form would hurt Techer less because it has two options, and only one of them was nerfed, while techs are Force's only option, and so a nerf is more meaningful for it.

Elysion would be important for Techer even if it was just a 50% latent, uncharged techs are irreplaceable for the range they cover. Keep in mind, whatever nerf is done is actually half that. 100% = double damage, Using Sazan as an example, it does 50% uncharged normally. 50% = 1.5x damage, Sazan would do 75% damage in this scenario. That seems perfectly usable to me for cleaning up mobs like Aginis in Nab II, so this doesn't really hurt. And 50% is a very extreme nerf, I don't expect it to be lower than 75%. (87% of charged Sazan's damage, only a 13% nerf from what it currently is).


it is in a really good place RIGHT NOW. it can cast and melee and generally is awesome.
however, if elysion is nerfed too much it very much becomes a one trick pony. all it will have left is wand melee. thats it. anything that is out of range or too mobile or is otherwise not possible to get to becomes 10x harder to kill due to no good ranged options and no viable gap closers besides step dashing(il zonde is only good for out of battle movement, its a poor gap closer in battle and ignites zondeel).

I don't understand how Techer's techs are unusable and how its gap closing abilities are unviable. What gap closing options would be viable if Step dashing is bad? You can Step very rapidly with tech canceling, and if it's really so bad, /Hu and /Br Techers can use Partisans and Katana for dashing PAs. I haven't had an issue as Te/Fi outside of really long distances, so I don't really get this.


this pretty much kills techs in any role but support, elysion fixed that somewhat which is why its such a big deal for a techer, you cant have a hybrid without being able to at least passably use both types of attacks.
the are other ways sega could handle this issue, but its unlikely to be seen any time soon.

Techer can passably use techs without Elysion, it'll be fine. Faster charging techs help mitigate this too.


mobility is a huge issue, learning to step cancel dash in battle becomes basically mandatory without effective techs. il zonde is not and never will be a viable gap closer in battle. either way you no longer have any effective way to hit weak points that cant be reached by jumping without techs.

I don't think mobility is an issue. You can step cancel by holding techs in battle. Same principle as using a GS to dash by holding down Aiming Shot, except much lower PP cost. Techer's mobility is quite fine as it is. Techs are usable for covering range options so they're fine on that end too.


which is why a key part of techer is getting nerfed because its a secondary part of force.

If Bouncer could use Elysion, then Bouncer would also be getting nerfed. With crafting, Bouncer can use Elysion. In that sense, Bouncer is also getting nerfed. Every tech using class that can use Elysion is getting nerfed. The fact that we only have three right now, and two of them can naturally equip Elysion, just hides the fact. Tech using is a part of every tech class. It sucks that Techer is getting nerfed because of Force, but when nerfing a tech potential, Sega nerfs every tech using class, even the ones not implemented yet.


again, right now its great. but thats because right now its a viable hybrid. take away the teching half of it(which elysion is a big part of) and all it has is wand wacking which while it does good damage, it has limited(particularly vertical) range.

I agree that Elysion is a big part of tech usage, but I don't think they're taking it away at all. It'll be slightly less effective, and will certainly remain an important part of Techer's gameplay. It's going to be fine.


that largely depends on the boss, not every boss can be flinched to death effectively. for some techer will be just fine, for others it will kill much slower or have much more trouble killing.

The only one I can think of is Ringahda. Maybe Shironia boss too. They're still pretty easy though.


with elysion's nerf you are basically restricted to wind techs or whatever other element you speced. everything else is too weak or costs too much or is too slow for the damage they deal. even then those that can be used effectively cost 25%~ more and are many times slower.

I don't have any masteries at all. I'm running Te/Fi, and my tech damage is good enough that I'm finding myself using techs about as much as my melee, particularly faster charging ones like Gimegid on flying mobs that don't move much (every flier in Shironia, Windira, stuff like that). They're bad compared to Force, but that doesn't make them unusable.


its accurate, time spent charging techs is time not spent regening pp and/or hitting things with wands. the listed pp cost may not have increased but the effective one has. additionally and perhaps more significantly is the slower speed at which techs can be used resulting in a large decrease in dps when casting. overall you cant dump pp nearly as fast or as much which while not mandatory for bossing helps immensely vs certain types.

OK, I see what you mean. Makes sense. I think faster charging techs more than make up for this though. Lower PP loss compared to Force and less time wasted charging. They aren't a perfect substitute, but they do things Elysion can't anyway.


there is a reason you dont see many bio wands or element spec latent weapons, they have pure casting latents. latents that boost both aspects of techer(destroyer latents,EWH latents) or ones that provide new and effective options(of which elysion is the only one of atm) will always win out.

Naturally. But, if a Rod or other weapon with higher T-ATK than Elysion got Innocent Form and was Techer equippable, I'm sure lots of people would use it over Elysion, even Techers. I don't see this as a wand thing at all, it's a tech thing. Nobody really uses Elysion to melee, just the potential. Being a wand is nice, but not being a wand is hardly a dealbreaker.


regardless, this nerf is not really warranted. its nowhere near the level of pre nerf shunka or fully specced prenerf il megid(that goes for fo using elysion too). if sega really wants to make a tech or two weaker they should just modify those techs uncharged power rather than potentially gutting the whole thing. if sega wants to weaken the latent so it can be made more common they should do what they did with the EWH and black heart, make a 2nd weaker version of the latent.

Agree on all counts here. There's clearly some logic behind Sega's actions, but that doesn't make them right.


You didn't meet the "without Elysion" requirement.

I didn't post those in reply to "without Elysion". I posted that in reply to "Elysion Ilbarta". I specifically said that it was as stupid as a no melee challenge. Taking that kind of challenge is a complete waste of time that has nothing to do with anything that was said.

Were you expecting me to do that? I'm not very impressed.


This video is the -quintessential- example of why Elysion is necessary for Techer. You just disproved yourself by posting this video. Good job. Elysion >>>>> whacks for bossing.

I wasn't posting that to disprove Elysion was necessary. I never said Elysion wasn't necessary in the first place. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that Elysion being nerfed doesn't gut Techer. I posted those two videos to show that Elysion Ilbarta > Elysion Namegid.

I owe an apology over the Nab II video though, I had thought it had used Ilbarta against Ragne, but remembered incorrectly (been a long day). It still gets a considerably better time than the one you posted, but that doesn't mean much when it fails to demonstrate Ilbarta. Ah well.

Your response suggests to me that you didn't bother watching the two Grand Prix videos either, particularly the finals one, which has Vibras downed using solely melee attacks (besides a preemptive charged Ilfoie). Unless you can provide a demonstration that Techer can do all that stuff faster with Elysion involved, I don't see how you can reasonably conclude that melee is strictly inferior to Elysion against large targets.


Nazan, but yeah I see what you were directing at now. Edited post. Just goes to show even with how good full light spec Techer is for nab2 that it still needs Elysion to kill rockbear as quickly as possible.

Because its weak point isn't as accessible by regular attacks as with Nazan. I don't see the problem here. You use what the best option is. FYI, the person stuck to just melee attacks against Fang Banther and primarily used melee against Ragne (along with non-Elysion techs), so I don't really see your point. Melee was clearly the best option some of the time, which makes it viable. Which was my point about melee in the first place.

[milranduil]

I didn't post those in reply to "without Elysion". I posted that in reply to "Elysion Ilbarta". I specifically said that it was as stupid as a no melee challenge. Taking that kind of challenge is a complete waste of time that has nothing to do with anything that was said.


He used Ilbarta on ice weak targets. I rest my case.


I wasn't posting that to disprove Elysion was necessary. I never said Elysion wasn't necessary in the first place. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that Elysion being nerfed doesn't gut Techer. I posted those two videos to show that Elysion Ilbarta > Elysion Namegid.

No, it just guts its bossing ability comparatively to other classes. Techer mobs very well, but it's not worth it if you can't boss as effectively as a different class that mobs slightly less efficiently than Techer but bosses much much better e.g. RA.


I owe an apology over the Nab II video though, I had thought it had used Ilbarta against Ragne, but remembered incorrectly (been a long day). It still gets a considerably better time than the one you posted, but that doesn't mean much when it fails to demonstrate Ilbarta. Ah well.

That was not my friend's ideal run, just one he showed me to highlight specific strats he used for spawns/bosses. He can get a 3:XX run using a dark tree without JP ping which is required for that other run with a light Techer tree (A1 Ilfoie strat).


Your response suggests to me that you didn't bother watching the two Grand Prix videos either, particularly the finals one, which has Vibras downed using solely melee attacks (besides a preemptive charged Ilfoie). Unless you can provide a demonstration that Techer can do all that stuff faster with Elysion involved, I don't see how you can reasonably conclude that melee is strictly inferior to Elysion against large targets.

Vibrace takes 3x damage from melee on his butt while 2x damage from techs. In this case, the DPS would be close to the same with namegid spam requiring PB to be up making melee the superior choice. This particular point is moot because of the difference in strike vs tech weakness multipliers.


Because its weak point isn't as accessible by regular attacks as with Nazan. I don't see the problem here. You use what the best option is. FYI, the person stuck to just melee attacks against Fang Banther and primarily used melee against Ragne (along with non-Elysion techs), so I don't really see your point. Melee was clearly the best option some of the time, which makes it viable. Which was my point about melee in the first place.

Melee is only the best option for Banther because he went with a light Techer tree for Ragne. Dark tree is still more optimal for this run, however, because you can kill Ragne and Banther faster than he did in his run using Elysion+Namegid.

[IndigoNovember]

Also as an aside, what are the voices used in the first two vids?
女性追加ボイス１７ for the first one.


I've also been of this mind set. Don't nerf what's strong, buff what's weak. But what do I know? I'm not a game dev, just an aspiring one.
If you're not careful, this can very easily lead to power creep.

[UnLucky]

If you're not careful, this can very easily lead to power creep.
That's when you buff the mobs.

It's foolproof.

[Lynesio]

I'm really sad to hear about the Elysion nerf. I agree that there's too much dependence on a single weapon, but the actual damage output isn't a problem. They just need to significantly buff uncharged techs (not only in damage, but in range, number of hits, etc. too) so that we don't need Elysion for them. Then Elysion's potential could be nerfed to +10-30%. I would be perfectly happy with that.

I read through this thread and saw a lot of people suggesting massive buffs to Force's Normal Tech Advance. I'm not sure why people would think that's a good idea. Do you want only Forces to be able to use uncharged techs? What about Techer and Bouncer? Normal Tech Advance should be +10%, just like the Tech Charge Advance skills. I guess Force could do with having a second one to balance it out though.

This nerf is going to affect me a lot as a Techer/Fighter, depending on how significant it is. I'm really disappointed. Uncharged techs are really important for taking enemies out at range (like in a PSE burst when the spawns are too spread out, or just to pick off stragglers). They're also important for heavy DPS by PP dumping techs like Sazan or Nazan.

I feel like uncharged techs are an integral part of the Techer playstyle. Techers don't get PP Charge Revival, which shifts the balance from charged techs towards uncharged techs. Even if they didn't intend it to be when designing the Techer class, it has at least become a part of the playstyle from Elysion having existed for years. Suddenly killing it off is gutting Techer, in my opinion. Sure, Techer has other options available to it, and it won't kill the class completely, but it will kill something that has become an ingrained part of it. Ranged DPS and single target DPS will both take big hits.

Again, I really want to see uncharged techs buffed significantly, so everyone can use them effectively with any weapon. Maybe give Techer a skill to boost uncharged techs too.

[Achelousaurus]

Meteor Cudgel got an additional potential. It was never changed. You can still use Skilled Trainer.

Oh. That is nice.
Why did people say it got changed then?D:

On a side note, you can only get 1 potential at a time or?


If you can't remember to switch your weapon at 2 AM, I'm surprised you can even kill the boss consistently in the first place at that hour. Really no excuse for forgetting.
Killing bosses is easy. Remembering little details is not.
I am quite scatterbrained.

[gigawuts]

Most of this stuff isn't even true in the first place. If you're going to insist on changes being necessary, at least learn about the class you're talking about.

Tech masteries: It is a melee/tech hybrid. This isn't an issue.
PP Charge Revival: Hurts, but forces players not to rely solely on techs. Sega clearly doesn't want to recycle skills either, so this one is basically "It doesn't get a Force skill".
Gap closers: Techs cover this (both range and Ilzonde), and Wands can do step cancels very easily by holding down a tech. Mobility is not an issue.
Split damage: This one isn't entirely true, and even if it was straighforward like this it wouldn't necessarily be a problem in the first place if handled right (and, imo, it hasn't been a problem). Wand swings benefit from both S-ATK and T-ATK, techs are just T-ATK. Run T-ATK, both benefit. Easy.
Tech/striking damage: Do you mean potentials? There are a load of wands with potentials that boost all types of damage.
Force's bitch: EP3 fixed this. They don't need to change it, they already did.
Techer's effectiveness: It's effective now.

EP3's been out for nearly a month and people still don't realize Techer's been buffed from worst class to easily competing with all the others. Even people that play Techer. How slow can you get?

I go to bed and lonely garuga shows up, typical.

I played Techer before and I play Techer now. I know the spot Techer is in. I didn't say it could be effective, I said it is effective.

I do run T-ATK, and I know it benefits both. You're a condescending twat, you know that right? Or is it purely accidental, and that's why everyone sighs when you show up in a thread?

The post you quoted highlighted both prior and current issues. If I knew you were going to show up and act like you normally do I would have mixed in some more prior issues just to rile you up some more, since even the slightest thing out of place sets you flying off harder than Renvalt reading something he disagrees with in the story.

Of those gripes, the ones that continue to exist are completely understandable and you know it. Why does Immediate Justice work on striking and range, allowing it to boost mechgun and impact slider kicks...but not techs? From a game design perspective. Why is it that a weapon ordinarily dedicated to one damage type get to boost alternate damage types, when the weapon designed for two damage types does not? Is it because Sega says so? Or is it because Sega designed skills this way a year before latents were introduced and didn't want to change anything?

Tech masteries are an issue, and trying to say they are not is honestly pretty laughable, even given your expected levels of detachment.

"Mobility is not an issue" is not the same as "there is no gap closer." As a primarily striking melee hybrid, Techer should have gotten PAs last year, and whenever it was brought up by anyone over that time players very frequently agreed but argued tooth and nail that it wasn't possible due to the game's programming. I think I remember Sega even saying as much, but I could be wrong. Now boots launch with PAs, and Sega throws ~big numbers~ at wands until techers shut the hell up about being a mechanically shit class. Sega needs to actually address and update old content, not tweak its multipliers then release a new class full of fixes players beg for on old content.

Hey guess what? Throwing ~big numbers~ at a class doesn't and never will solve shit all with regards to mechanics. A poor mechanic that needs 50 hits and a poor mechanic that needs 1 hit are both poor mechanics.

[kabutozero]

is fire the best way to go for in a fo build?

[HeyItsTHK]

is fire the best way to go for in a fo build?

I'd like to think so, but dang that fire rod is so expensive on my ship.

[Kikikiki]

I'd like to think so, but dang that fire rod is so expensive on my ship.

On the bright side, you don't need as much investment in weapon as, for example, Ice/Dark builds, since you're likely going to go FO/FI for fire build anyway.

The most expensive department is still the tech crafting one :wacko:

[IndignationSWF]

is fire the best way to go for in a fo build?

With so many enemies having a weakness to it, not to mention the state of Fire Techs, I'd say yes though I wish there was more variety. So many run fire almost exclusively and it's becoming a headache for some.

[milranduil]

I'd like to think so, but dang that fire rod is so expensive on my ship.

There is a cheaper 10* version if you want to give up a few % in damage worth of t-atk.

[Achelousaurus]

Hey guess what? Throwing ~big numbers~ at a class doesn't and never will solve shit all with regards to mechanics. A poor mechanic that needs 50 hits and a poor mechanic that needs 1 hit are both poor mechanics.
I agree 100%, but sometimes it can be made feasible like this.
If for example the amount of hits needed to max Katana Combat Finish's damage was not 30 but 100 and it would be really hard to get even close, damage would be pathetic.
BUT, if Finish's damage was like 4000 per hit, it wouldn't be that much of an issue because you can deal good damage even without getting many hits in.

Considering this is Sega who are unbelievably lazy, I think it's a good thing we at least got those big numbers:(

On a side note, who do I melee techer without tons of enemies around?
I tried it in VH during random quests and then the Knight Gear LQ.
To me it seemed rather pointless cause it depends on tons of enemies to be useful.
I had the problem that wand gear charged absurdly slow and with techs at lvl 14-16 I killed most enemies anyway.
Not to mention gear depletes over time so you have to use many charged techs quickly. I needed like 4-5 charged techs to max gear.
And when I finally did max, few enemies were left and only 2-3 at a time were in Zondeel range, so I got a little fun with 3-4 whacks and a couple of explosions but overall it was really pointless.
I guess you don't have to fill Gear, so 1 charged Zondeel gives enough gear to whack away at the mobs you just gathered?
Just repeat for the next group close enough to be zondeeled? And how long does the zondeel effect last, I saw he used multiple zondeels to gather enemies over a wide area?

As a final anecdote, a friend recently told me a lot of forces she knows are really jealous of melee for not needing to charge in order to do good damage and for having a decent normal attack.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/lqUes1l.gif

[HeyItsTHK]

On the bright side, you don't need as much investment in weapon as, for example, Ice/Dark builds, since you're likely going to go FO/FI for fire build anyway.

The most expensive department is still the tech crafting one :wacko:

No kidding, getting recipe 3's sucks.

[IndignationSWF]

As a final anecdote, a friend recently told me a lot of forces she knows are really jealous of melee for not needing to charge in order to do good damage and for having a decent normal attack.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/lqUes1l.gif

...What?

Okay, I kind of get the sentiment I think.
Burst DPS-types are usually harder to manage than Consistant DPS. Kind of like Tera and the difference between Warrior and Slayer.

That said...

Forces do rediculously more damage than pretty much everyone else in general, and as long as their regen's decent. Melee fighters require lots of hits and stances to rack up that kind of damage. @_@

Just look at Kestral Rampage. I do 10+k with it, but that's over 15+ hits.

[HeyItsTHK]

I agree 100%, but sometimes it can be made feasible like this.
If for example the amount of hits needed to max Katana Combat Finish's damage was not 30 but 100 and it would be really hard to get even close, damage would be pathetic.
BUT, if Finish's damage was like 4000 per hit, it wouldn't be that much of an issue because you can deal good damage even without getting many hits in.

Considering this is Sega who are unbelievably lazy, I think it's a good thing we at least got those big numbers:(

On a side note, who do I melee techer without tons of enemies around?
I tried it in VH during random quests and then the Knight Gear LQ.
To me it seemed rather pointless cause it depends on tons of enemies to be useful.
I had the problem that wand gear charged absurdly slow and with techs at lvl 14-16 I killed most enemies anyway.
Not to mention gear depletes over time so you have to use many charged techs quickly. I needed like 4-5 charged techs to max gear.
And when I finally did max, few enemies were left and only 2-3 at a time were in Zondeel range, so I got a little fun with 3-4 whacks and a couple of explosions but overall it was really pointless.
I guess you don't have to fill Gear, so 1 charged Zondeel gives enough gear to whack away at the mobs you just gathered?
Just repeat for the next group close enough to be zondeeled? And how long does the zondeel effect last, I saw he used multiple zondeels to gather enemies over a wide area?

As a final anecdote, a friend recently told me a lot of forces she knows are really jealous of melee for not needing to charge in order to do good damage and for having a decent normal attack.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/lqUes1l.gif

Wand Stance keeps gear filled always now, so filling gear isn't a thing anymore.

So just zondeel (make sure to have Territory Burst and craft your Zondeel for additional range) em and whack em. bosses, just have a proper element wand (you could get a rainbow set of that new 10 star one that drops in Shironia) and keep on whacking (or use Loveless One if you're lazy).

Your friend is silly. Sounds like she's jealous of melee being able to do other things besides charge up spells and wreck things for 5 digit numbers (or high 4 digits at worst).

[gigawuts]

I agree 100%, but sometimes it can be made feasible like this.
If for example the amount of hits needed to max Katana Combat Finish's damage was not 30 but 100 and it would be really hard to get even close, damage would be pathetic.
BUT, if Finish's damage was like 4000 per hit, it wouldn't be that much of an issue because you can deal good damage even without getting many hits in.

Considering this is Sega who are unbelievably lazy, I think it's a good thing we at least got those big numbers:(

I can understand this argument, and even agree that it can work (in the same way, a perfectly fine mechanic can be ruined with number tweaks, so obviously the opposite can be true).

But I really feel techer just isn't that. It's being pulled in 3 separate directions at once and people try to argue it's fine because you don't have to go all 3, or even 2. I disagree that this makes it okay. It should be rebuilt from the ground up to give it better degrees of synergy between its intended roles, and to allow better blending between them like we find on other classes (most notably Hunter now - fury + automate is totally possible and even good in many situations).

Why give Techer Element Weak Hit and then just three masteries (2 being the least common until Ep 2), without anything to give enemies more weaknesses? Why give it nothing to speed up charge times on anything at all, when the gear relied on charged techs? Why make it rely on tech crafting for that? Why give it nothing to raise effectiveness of comboing? If it's meant to use techs, why keep the masteries as purely damage instead of allowing them to have more specialized abilities like larger AOE or more hits? Why rely purely on step and a single tech for gap closing?

Why give it PP restorate, which in no way whatsoever combines with its other abilities? Why give it this plethora of skills that are only truly effective if used with the appropriate sub/main combo?

What other class has this level of tedium? This last question is the most important here, because the issues here are of context. It's not that Techer can't be effective, or can't do things; it can. It's that it's the only class to face this level of poor planning and synergy, resulting in a lack of options and customization due to having to bear approximately the same number of skills as other classes - and many of Techer's skills aren't for Techer. Skills on other classes were designed to go hand in hand. Other classes were created for their own sake. Techer exists to hold the other 3 masteries, then as an afterthought has Wand Gear plus an active skill that turns wands into what they should be innately.

[TheAstarion]

Elysion nerf to me says that they're preparing for rank 5 latents, which are already in the game data. The same 200% Elysion boost would probably sit at around the correct level on the power curve, leaving the Elysion-friendly techs like Ilbarta and Sazan pretty much where they stand.

I do agree though that the gap should be closed between normal uncharged damage and Elysion-fuelled carnage, but it shouldn't be at the cost of alienating Techers yet again. Maybe boost uncharged damage by 60%, maybe give a 30% PP refund or perhaps a Techer-only class skill along the lines of Tactics Trap only weaker to restore PP when hitting with an uncharged tech.

Wands need PAs though, that much is certain. Hell, even rods and talises could have PAs to set them apart too. And as for double saber, you could always spam the gear when there were enough enemies around, and it could always go infinite as long as there were enough dudes to hit... now because of one poorly thought out potential nobody can do that any more.

And as for compensation, everyone better get 1000 tech frags and at least a million meseta for each level of tech crafting unlocked. And the fire tech crafts, Ilfoie especially, need rebalancing too but don't tell Sega.

[Cyhiwraith]

I wonder how many people out there think an uncharged tech should hit just as hard/harder(or maybe even only slightly less) than a charged one, or even have more overall DPS. I honestly just liked PSO style, no charged techs. You just spam casted and drank some fluids.

[Kondibon]

I wonder how many people out there think an uncharged tech should hit just as hard/harder(or maybe even only slightly less) than a charged one, or even have more overall DPS. I honestly just liked PSO style, no charged techs. You just spam casted and drank some fluids.


Another idea I had was for techs to simply function differently uncharged, or have their secondary effects reduced rather than the damage, like how the only difference between charged and uncharged banishing arrow is the AoE. I mean, a lot of techs like Foie and sazan already do that part, it's just that they have the decreased damage on top. :/
http://i.imgur.com/AEDyXrG.png

[Sanguine2009]

that would fix alot of issues with casting in general, its a good idea so sega will never do it.

[UnLucky]

Uncharged techs definitely shouldn't be slower/smaller/shorter/weaker/fewer for the same cost.

Just one drawback please, not all of the above. Otherwise they only exist as a grim reminder not to forgot to charge your PP before attacking someone with it, lest it lifelessly slip through your fingers and into the ground.

Without Elysion, uncharged techs can only hope their photons might nourish the local plant life. Pour one as tribute to a fallen Arks member. Give them a 21 Sazan salute.

[HeyItsTHK]

Elysion nerf to me says that they're preparing for rank 5 latents, which are already in the game data. The same 200% Elysion boost would probably sit at around the correct level on the power curve, leaving the Elysion-friendly techs like Ilbarta and Sazan pretty much where they stand.

auuugh.

FUFU YOU HAVE NO LUCK

[Cyhiwraith]

Uncharged techs make sense to me... if you have an air powered BB gun, what happens when you pump it once compaired to pumping it 8 times? If uncharged techs hit just as hard as charged, there wouldn't be any point in charged, that's just silly. It's like a pitcher throwing the baseball without winding up, it's gonna be slower, not go as far, and get hit way easier.

You gather less photons as well, so it makes no sense to be as strong or stronger. Like, it makes sense they are weaker/smaller/less range ect ect ect. Seriously, just take a rubber band and pull it 1/2 way it's max length then pull it back as far as you can and there is a HUGE difference, not just how much it'll hurt.

[gigawuts]

Game balance > Game Design > Roleplaying faggotry

Want to explain why charged is better? Watch me do it:

Because photons.

[UnLucky]

And then tell me why it takes just as much energy to propel the BB or baseball or rubber band.

You're gonna say it takes just as much air with one pump compared to eight?

Or you need to swap in the relief pitcher at the same point in the game regardless of how many fastballs are thrown? Cause that MLB hotshot on the mound tossing underarm the whole time would totally injure his shoulder after a single inning

[Chdata]

Elysion is a magic tool. What if it's good at amplifying lower amounts of photons but if you load it with a lot of photons then it backfires and can't magnify the power?

[Cyhiwraith]

Doesn't matter, obv sega agrees with me and not you, lolololol. Make uncharged worthless please.

[Cyhiwraith]

And then tell me why it takes just as much energy to propel the BB or baseball or rubber band.

You're gonna say it takes just as much air with one pump compared to eight?

Or you need to swap in the relief pitcher at the same point in the game regardless of how many fastballs are thrown? Cause that MLB hotshot on the mound tossing underarm the whole time would totally injure his shoulder after a single inning

I can agree it should cost less, but still shouldn't match damage at an equal PP amount, it just makes no sense. I mean, you can instant cast and not worry about getting intrupted at all if you wanna talk about balance, something that has no drawback as far as using it goes shouldn't be as strong as something that does. You can't fail an instant cast, you can fail a charged tech. I mean, what's gonna do more damage, 2 tiny rocks hitting the ground from the sky or one gigantic oversized rock? Uncharged is just silly.

[Galax]

I come to page 8 and it looks like people are discussing how the 'magic' of pso2 works.

I thought it was just "lol photon manipulation, we use photons as an energy source and some people are like haha I can turn light in to fire".

[gigawuts]

I come to page 8 and it looks like people are discussing how the 'magic' of pso2 works.

I thought it was just "lol photon manipulation, we use photons as an energy source and some people are like haha I can turn light in to fire".

After a point you just sigh and remember what community this is.

Career forces tend to be a bit, uh, batshit. When they lose even a centimeter they go ballistic and edge on a nervous breakdown.

[UnLucky]

But instantly activated Photon Arts are totally fine and make complete sense then? Even ranged attacks. But not techs.

[IndignationSWF]

But instantly activated Photon Arts are totally fine and make complete sense then? Even ranged attacks. But not techs.

Photon Arts only require a Trigger Sequence since the weapon performs the function, unfortunately the techs need to be crafted into the desired form so they'd logically it would require more time to function.

[UnLucky]

So Elysion can do whatever it is you're talking about so we're good then

[Galax]

Unfortunately for all sides, what logic are you even on about? There's no logic to it. SEGA hasn't seen fit to give us any sort of in-depth explanation of how the technology of photon manipulation works. I'm fairly sure the most explanation we've gotten is "discs teach your sword how to stab things better. They also teach your gun to shoot in pretty colors with elemental effects, and your "magic" weapons learn how to spew nature from them."

That's courtesy of PSU. PSO2 seems to work much the same way, what with linking them to a weapon, with the added interest with Techs in that you don't have to link them to a weapon, but can apply them directly to your hotbar, showing they don't need a weapon.

That's about all I've ever found. Discs = skills. Nobody does this shit without learning from a disc.

But even with that, arguing the logic behind these things is a gigantic waste of time.

[HeyItsTHK]

Unfortunately for all sides, what logic are you even on about? There's no logic to it. SEGA hasn't seen fit to give us any sort of in-depth explanation of how the technology of photon manipulation works. I'm fairly sure the most explanation we've gotten is "discs teach your sword how to stab things better. They also teach your gun to shoot in pretty colors with elemental effects, and your "magic" weapons learn how to spew nature from them."

That's courtesy of PSU. PSO2 seems to work much the same way, what with linking them to a weapon, with the added interest with Techs in that you don't have to link them to a weapon, but can apply them directly to your hotbar, showing they don't need a weapon.

That's about all I've ever found. Discs = skills. Nobody does this shit without learning from a disc.

But even with that, arguing the logic behind these things is a gigantic waste of time.

Tying gameplay elements into story elements is a dangerous task. It can work out really well (Mass Effect codex explaining why gameplay went from a heat mechanic to an ammo mechanic), or can work out poorly (Metroid Other M in general), or just brushed aside (everything in PSO2 just amounts to PHOTONS [did you know the player character is the only Arks member good at being any class?]).

But yeah discs just seems to be a manual for Arks members to learn stuff from.

[LonelyGaruga]

He used Ilbarta on ice weak targets. I rest my case.

Namegid and Ilbarta get the same damage bonus on infection points. Don't see your point.


No, it just guts its bossing ability comparatively to other classes. Techer mobs very well, but it's not worth it if you can't boss as effectively as a different class that mobs slightly less efficiently than Techer but bosses much much better e.g. RA.

25K melee. 100K Namegid when the recipe adds around 25% more damage than it should (so it should be closer to 75K once the nerf hits).

How is this gutted?


That was not my friend's ideal run, just one he showed me to highlight specific strats he used for spawns/bosses. He can get a 3:XX run using a dark tree without JP ping which is required for that other run with a light Techer tree (A1 Ilfoie strat).

Not being able to Ilfoie in A1 makes it a hard comparison then. Ah well, he played very well.


Vibrace takes 3x damage from melee on his butt while 2x damage from techs. In this case, the DPS would be close to the same with namegid spam requiring PB to be up making melee the superior choice. This particular point is moot because of the difference in strike vs tech weakness multipliers.

Just cut his damage by 1/3rd for comparing with other weak points. Guy was hitting 34K (34900 criit, might as well round up to 35K) on third hit, 8K on WG. Wand Gear uses tech weak points so the striking portion would be 22-23K on third hit for a x2 weak point. Second (weakest hit) was 26K (so 17K on a x2 weak point). With WG, that's 25-31K per hit.

Once Umbral Namegid gets fixed that's actually going to be better DPS for a lot of things, and that really isn't bad damage.


Melee is only the best option for Banther because he went with a light Techer tree for Ragne. Dark tree is still more optimal for this run, however, because you can kill Ragne and Banther faster than he did in his run using Elysion+Namegid.

I can't contend that. Namegid is doing more damage than intended so when that's fixed it won't be true anymore, but until then, yeah, Namegid is better DPS than melee.


Oh. That is nice.
Why did people say it got changed then?D:

On a side note, you can only get 1 potential at a time or?

Killing bosses is easy. Remembering little details is not.
I am quite scatterbrained.

Dunno.

1 potential, yeah.

Well that's OK, 2 AM is pretty late.


I played Techer before and I play Techer now. I know the spot Techer is in. I didn't say it could be effective, I said it is effective.

Thought you meant the concept could be effective, and wasn't yet. My bad then.


I do run T-ATK, and I know it benefits both. You're a condescending twat, you know that right? Or is it purely accidental, and that's why everyone sighs when you show up in a thread?

I don't really care about what 90% of people think of me with how limited their interactions with me are. If many people think the same thing, that doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean they know me. I don't care what you or anyone else have to say about me. My opinions? Fair game. Me? That's stupid.

You don't know me well enough to make judgments of my character. I don't care about your opinion of me.


Of those gripes, the ones that continue to exist are completely understandable and you know it. Why does Immediate Justice work on striking and range, allowing it to boost mechgun and impact slider kicks...but not techs? From a game design perspective. Why is it that a weapon ordinarily dedicated to one damage type get to boost alternate damage types, when the weapon designed for two damage types does not? Is it because Sega says so? Or is it because Sega designed skills this way a year before latents were introduced and didn't want to change anything?

I sincerely don't see the problem here. Even the game's interface indicates striking and ranged are tied together from the start, sharing the PA menu with techs being by themselves on another one entirely, and with every class getting a melee/range hybrid weapon, I don't see why there's a problem with a potential buffing something every class can do, but not something limited only to tech classes.

Additionally, the melee and ranged damage formula are extremely similar, but the tech one is radically different. It makes sense to separate them.

Now, I have nothing to say about how potentials are given, because a lot of the time they're thematic, as opposed to functional. Thematic concepts can't accurately be criticized for functional reasons.


Tech masteries are an issue, and trying to say they are not is honestly pretty laughable, even given your expected levels of detachment.

Saying tech masteries aren't an issue is not the same as saying they're good design. I'm saying they don't cause problems. If you think otherwise, an explanation would be nice.

Mind you, whatever you say about what should have been done with Wind/Light/Dark masteries, they wouldn't be going to Force, and they wouldn't go to another class. Techer is condemned to have them for thematic purposes, not functional. Functionally, I agree, masteries don't really belong on Techer. But Techer gets saddled with them for thematic reasons and that simply cannot be helped. Before EP3, sure, they were an issue. Now, though? You can completely ignore them and not lose out on anything. So how are they an issue now?


"Mobility is not an issue" is not the same as "there is no gap closer." As a primarily striking melee hybrid, Techer should have gotten PAs last year, and whenever it was brought up by anyone over that time players very frequently agreed but argued tooth and nail that it wasn't possible due to the game's programming. I think I remember Sega even saying as much, but I could be wrong. Now boots launch with PAs, and Sega throws ~big numbers~ at wands until techers shut the hell up about being a mechanically shit class. Sega needs to actually address and update old content, not tweak its multipliers then release a new class full of fixes players beg for on old content.

That Techer "should" have gotten PAs is purely an opinion. Wands do not need PAs to function, nor do they need them for good melee. They were specifically designed around their normals, which by design required good damage. When all you have is normals, those normals have to compete with PAs for melee to be good.

As far as Techer goes, the only thing Sega did to boost its damage directly is give the JA bonus to Wand Gear, which should have been there in the first place and can't be held against them. They gave it passive TB, permanent Wand Lovers, inherent Extend Assist, a more effective Shifta, a Deband that gives HP, a 1 SP Super Treatment, and a substantially more useful skill tree that has none of the wasted SP the old one had, but apparently all they really did is buff its damage. Sure, they gave it 5% more on Wand Lovers and 10% more thanks to Shifta Strike. Sure, other classes got skills that make Techer's damage really good. But Sega did not just throw big numbers at Techer to make them good. Saying they did is a complete dismissal of all the other improvements to Techer. Were things like Wand Lovers and TB not adjusted, Techer would still be bottom tier even with its current damage output.


Hey guess what? Throwing ~big numbers~ at a class doesn't and never will solve shit all with regards to mechanics. A poor mechanic that needs 50 hits and a poor mechanic that needs 1 hit are both poor mechanics.

What shit mechanics? The support system, which, due to the changes, is the best it's ever been? Wand Lovers, which is permanent instead of 60s with a 30s cooldown afterwards? Territory Burst, which is now passive? The terrible skill tree, which no longer is in use?

If you're going to say Techer's mechanics are shit because its only melee is normal attacks, that just isn't functional logic. There is no reason for normals to be bad. A class focused on strong normals for its melee is not inherently a bad melee class. In Techer's case, throwing big numbers does work because Techer is deliberately handicapped in melee range. Sacrificing options for more damage is a completely legitimate design move.


But I really feel techer just isn't that. It's being pulled in 3 separate directions at once and people try to argue it's fine because you don't have to go all 3, or even 2. I disagree that this makes it okay. It should be rebuilt from the ground up to give it better degrees of synergy between its intended roles, and to allow better blending between them like we find on other classes (most notably Hunter now - fury + automate is totally possible and even good in many situations).

Not seeing how Fury + Automate is any different from what Techer is doing right now. You can effectively take anything from any of the directions, and they all supplement each other very well. The masteries all cover techs that supplement melee very effectively with range. While the Masteries just increase damage, more competent tech usage is a supplement to melee that gives it viable ranged options, substantially increasing its versatility.


Why give Techer Element Weak Hit and then just three masteries (2 being the least common until Ep 2), without anything to give enemies more weaknesses?

1) Wands get full elemental weakness bonus on WG.
2) It buffs both melee and tech damage, and until EP3 was the only one that did.
3) Sega refusing to recycle skills would mean Force wouldn't get any masteries at all.
4) It's a skill that combines well as a subclass.
5) There is no reason Sega won't add a skill that gives weaknesses in the future.


Why give it nothing to speed up charge times on anything at all, when the gear relied on charged techs? Why make it rely on tech crafting for that? Why give it nothing to raise effectiveness of comboing? If it's meant to use techs, why keep the masteries as purely damage instead of allowing them to have more specialized abilities like larger AOE or more hits? Why rely purely on step and a single tech for gap closing?

Charge time: Bad gear design. Wand Lovers basically makes the gear stop existing.
Tech crafting: Never was the case.
Combos: Why? Doesn't focus on them in the first place.
Masteries, AoE: Territory Burst? More hits and larger AoE don't help and probably can't be done in the first place.
Gap closing: What's wrong with this? I seriously do not have an issue with gap closing as a Techer, and I really do not see why this is a recurring complaint.


Why give it PP restorate, which in no way whatsoever combines with its other abilities? Why give it this plethora of skills that are only truly effective if used with the appropriate sub/main combo?

PP Restorate 1 and PP Convert are Techer's answer to PP Charge Revival, and both of them can be used very effectively without Force involved, thanks to the existence of uncharged techs and crafted techs. Not a problem like you say it is.


What other class has this level of tedium? This last question is the most important here, because the issues here are of context. It's not that Techer can't be effective, or can't do things; it can. It's that it's the only class to face this level of poor planning and synergy, resulting in a lack of options and customization due to having to bear approximately the same number of skills as other classes - and many of Techer's skills aren't for Techer. Skills on other classes were designed to go hand in hand. Other classes were created for their own sake. Techer exists to hold the other 3 masteries, then as an afterthought has Wand Gear plus an active skill that turns wands into what they should be innately.

Hunter gets Guard Stance Poison, Guard Stance Burn, and Pretty Good. All of these are stupid.

Fighter gets Halfline Boost and Adrenaline. It can't use either by itself. Chase Advance and Chase Advance Plus both require an affix on your weapon or a tech subclass to take advantage of.

Until EP3, Ranger required items to use traps. Except for Automate skills, no other class skill relied on item usage, and those just use it automatically for you.

Gunner gets Aerial Advance, which only works on airborne enemies, but severely lacks in ways to launch enemies in the first place, and Attack PP Restorate, which doesn't belong any more than PP Restorate 1 on Techer.

I don't really see anything wrong with Force.

Braver gets Attack Advance, which benefits Techer far more than it does Bullet Bows, and its Mastery skill increases DEX, when most 10*+ weapons have enough minimum damage to make this irrelevant.

Bouncer gets Craft Mastery, which should require no explanation, and two stances that have nothing in common with each other, when every class with stances before has had them as effective counterparts to each other.

Why is Techer being singled out like it's the only class with bad skill tree design? None of this has proven to be a problem for those classes, and Techer is no different. It having masteries doesn't make it bad. It having skills that are more useful as a subclass does not make it a bad main class, and that isn't even bad design in a game where subclasses exist at all.

The only thing that's true about all of this is that Techer had Wind/Light/Dark shoehorned into it. Which really can't be helped. Something had to get them, and it wasn't going to be Force. The skill tree could accommodate them better, but pretty much every skill added has been wand or support related, to the extent that I would say the masteries are the afterthought, not wands.

That wands sucked so much on release is just Sega's design team being really bad about gameplay, which the mastery thing is also indicative of. Sega does not prioritize gameplay as much as it does game design. I, for the record, don't agree with it or half the stuff I defend (wands lacking PAs in particular), and it's obvious you don't agree with them, but that's what they're doing, and it isn't factually accurate to say they're wrong or should have done something else.

[gigawuts]

Namegid and Ilbarta get the same damage bonus on infection points. Don't see your point.



25K melee. 100K Namegid when the recipe adds around 25% more damage than it should (so it should be closer to 75K once the nerf hits).

How is this gutted?



Not being able to Ilfoie in A1 makes it a hard comparison then. Ah well, he played very well.



Just cut his damage by 1/3rd for comparing with other weak points. Guy was hitting 34K (34900 criit, might as well round up to 35K) on third hit, 8K on WG. Wand Gear uses tech weak points so the striking portion would be 22-23K on third hit for a x2 weak point. Second (weakest hit) was 26K (so 17K on a x2 weak point). With WG, that's 25-31K per hit.

Once Umbral Namegid gets fixed that's actually going to be better DPS for a lot of things, and that really isn't bad damage.



I can't contend that. Namegid is doing more damage than intended so when that's fixed it won't be true anymore, but until then, yeah, Namegid is better DPS than melee.



Dunno.

1 potential, yeah.

Well that's OK, 2 AM is pretty late.



Thought you meant the concept could be effective, and wasn't yet. My bad then.



I don't really care about what 90% of people think of me with how limited their interactions with me are. If many people think the same thing, that doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean they know me. I don't care what you or anyone else have to say about me. My opinions? Fair game. Me? That's stupid.

You don't know me well enough to make judgments of my character. I don't care about your opinion of me.



I sincerely don't see the problem here. Even the game's interface indicates striking and ranged are tied together from the start, sharing the PA menu with techs being by themselves on another one entirely, and with every class getting a melee/range hybrid weapon, I don't see why there's a problem with a potential buffing something every class can do, but not something limited only to tech classes.

Additionally, the melee and ranged damage formula are extremely similar, but the tech one is radically different. It makes sense to separate them.

Now, I have nothing to say about how potentials are given, because a lot of the time they're thematic, as opposed to functional. Thematic concepts can't accurately be criticized for functional reasons.



Saying tech masteries aren't an issue is not the same as saying they're good design. I'm saying they don't cause problems. If you think otherwise, an explanation would be nice.

Mind you, whatever you say about what should have been done with Wind/Light/Dark masteries, they wouldn't be going to Force, and they wouldn't go to another class. Techer is condemned to have them for thematic purposes, not functional. Functionally, I agree, masteries don't really belong on Techer. But Techer gets saddled with them for thematic reasons and that simply cannot be helped. Before EP3, sure, they were an issue. Now, though? You can completely ignore them and not lose out on anything. So how are they an issue now?



That Techer "should" have gotten PAs is purely an opinion. Wands do not need PAs to function, nor do they need them for good melee. They were specifically designed around their normals, which by design required good damage. When all you have is normals, those normals have to compete with PAs for melee to be good.

As far as Techer goes, the only thing Sega did to boost its damage directly is give the JA bonus to Wand Gear, which should have been there in the first place and can't be held against them. They gave it passive TB, permanent Wand Lovers, inherent Extend Assist, a more effective Shifta, a Deband that gives HP, a 1 SP Super Treatment, and a substantially more useful skill tree that has none of the wasted SP the old one had, but apparently all they really did is buff its damage. Sure, they gave it 5% more on Wand Lovers and 10% more thanks to Shifta Strike. Sure, other classes got skills that make Techer's damage really good. But Sega did not just throw big numbers at Techer to make them good. Saying they did is a complete dismissal of all the other improvements to Techer. Were things like Wand Lovers and TB not adjusted, Techer would still be bottom tier even with its current damage output.



What shit mechanics? The support system, which, due to the changes, is the best it's ever been? Wand Lovers, which is permanent instead of 60s with a 30s cooldown afterwards? Territory Burst, which is now passive? The terrible skill tree, which no longer is in use?

If you're going to say Techer's mechanics are shit because its only melee is normal attacks, that just isn't functional logic. There is no reason for normals to be bad. A class focused on strong normals for its melee is not inherently a bad melee class. In Techer's case, throwing big numbers does work because Techer is deliberately handicapped in melee range. Sacrificing options for more damage is a completely legitimate design move.



Not seeing how Fury + Automate is any different from what Techer is doing right now. You can effectively take anything from any of the directions, and they all supplement each other very well. The masteries all cover techs that supplement melee very effectively with range. While the Masteries just increase damage, more competent tech usage is a supplement to melee that gives it viable ranged options, substantially increasing its versatility.



1) Wands get full elemental weakness bonus on WG.
2) It buffs both melee and tech damage, and until EP3 was the only one that did.
3) Sega refusing to recycle skills would mean Force wouldn't get any masteries at all.
4) It's a skill that combines well as a subclass.
5) There is no reason Sega won't add a skill that gives weaknesses in the future.



Charge time: Bad gear design. Wand Lovers basically makes the gear stop existing.
Tech crafting: Never was the case.
Combos: Why? Doesn't focus on them in the first place.
Masteries, AoE: Territory Burst? More hits and larger AoE don't help and probably can't be done in the first place.
Gap closing: What's wrong with this? I seriously do not have an issue with gap closing as a Techer, and I really do not see why this is a recurring complaint.



PP Restorate 1 and PP Convert are Techer's answer to PP Charge Revival, and both of them can be used very effectively without Force involved, thanks to the existence of uncharged techs and crafted techs. Not a problem like you say it is.



Hunter gets Guard Stance Poison, Guard Stance Burn, and Pretty Good. All of these are stupid.

Fighter gets Halfline Boost and Adrenaline. It can't use either by itself. Chase Advance and Chase Advance Plus both require an affix on your weapon or a tech subclass to take advantage of.

Until EP3, Ranger required items to use traps. Except for Automate skills, no other class skill relied on item usage, and those just use it automatically for you.

Gunner gets Aerial Advance, which only works on airborne enemies, but severely lacks in ways to launch enemies in the first place, and Attack PP Restorate, which doesn't belong any more than PP Restorate 1 on Techer.

I don't really see anything wrong with Force.

Braver gets Attack Advance, which benefits Techer far more than it does Bullet Bows, and its Mastery skill increases DEX, when most 10*+ weapons have enough minimum damage to make this irrelevant.

Bouncer gets Craft Mastery, which should require no explanation, and two stances that have nothing in common with each other, when every class with stances before has had them as effective counterparts to each other.

Why is Techer being singled out like it's the only class with bad skill tree design? None of this has proven to be a problem for those classes, and Techer is no different. It having masteries doesn't make it bad. It having skills that are more useful as a subclass does not make it a bad main class, and that isn't even bad design in a game where subclasses exist at all.

The only thing that's true about all of this is that Techer had Wind/Light/Dark shoehorned into it. Which really can't be helped. Something had to get them, and it wasn't going to be Force. The skill tree could accommodate them better, but pretty much every skill added has been wand or support related, to the extent that I would say the masteries are the afterthought, not wands.

That wands sucked so much on release is just Sega's design team being really bad about gameplay, which the mastery thing is also indicative of. Sega does not prioritize gameplay as much as it does game design. I, for the record, don't agree with it or half the stuff I defend (wands lacking PAs in particular), and it's obvious you don't agree with them, but that's what they're doing, and it isn't factually accurate to say they're wrong or should have done something else.

God damn your quote wars are retarded.

I haven't participated in a quote war since 2009, and god help me if I'm starting again.

What little I've read of this post boils down to "I THINK EVERYTHING IS FINE EXCEPT THE PARTS EVERYONE THINKS ISN'T, AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL FIX THEM LATER WHICH ISN'T WHAT YOU'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT BUT I'M STILL GOING TO SAY THAT."

Great, suck Sakai's dick some more?

Seriously though: Get help.

[Xaeris]

Unfortunately for all sides, what logic are you even on about? There's no logic to it. SEGA hasn't seen fit to give us any sort of in-depth explanation of how the technology of photon manipulation works. I'm fairly sure the most explanation we've gotten is "discs teach your sword how to stab things better. They also teach your gun to shoot in pretty colors with elemental effects, and your "magic" weapons learn how to spew nature from them."

That's courtesy of PSU. PSO2 seems to work much the same way, what with linking them to a weapon, with the added interest with Techs in that you don't have to link them to a weapon, but can apply them directly to your hotbar, showing they don't need a weapon.

That's about all I've ever found. Discs = skills. Nobody does this shit without learning from a disc.

But even with that, arguing the logic behind these things is a gigantic waste of time.

The descriptions on photon arts and techniques give a basic (very basic) idea of how they work. Interestingly, most rifle and launcher arts don't mention a thing about photons and instead, just involve loading some special ammo into your gun. Also interestingly, only light and dark elemental techniques involve directly attacking the enemy with photons. The other four elements use photons as an intermediary to evoke their phenomena.

The player has to fill in a lot of blanks, but I'd say it at least provides the imagination with a starting point.

[Kondibon]

God damn your quote wars are retarded.

I haven't participated in a quote war since 2009, and god help me if I'm starting again.

What little I've read of this post boils down to "I THINK EVERYTHING IS FINE EXCEPT THE PARTS EVERYONE THINKS ISN'T, AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL FIX THEM LATER WHICH ISN'T WHAT YOU'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT BUT I'M STILL GOING TO SAY THAT."

Great, suck Sakai's dick some more?

Seriously though: Get help.http://i.imgur.com/IsmbBsS.gif

[LonelyGaruga]

What little I've read of this post boils down to "I THINK EVERYTHING IS FINE EXCEPT THE PARTS EVERYONE THINKS ISN'T, AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY'LL FIX THEM LATER WHICH ISN'T WHAT YOU'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT BUT I'M STILL GOING TO SAY THAT."

Great, suck Sakai's dick some more?

Seriously though: Get help.

So you didn't read it at all and jumped straight to insulting me for things I wasn't saying.

Nice.

[Xaeris]

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/IsmbBsS.gif[/spoiler-box]

I love this.

[gigawuts]

So you didn't read it at all and jumped straight to insulting me for things I wasn't saying.

Nice.

Try distilling your literally-a-gallon-of-ink post into something with a lower response-to-quote word count ratio than .2898 (yes, I actually checked) and maybe I'll reply more seriously.

But, honestly, it looks like the issues here are thus:

I prefer a more structured game design philosophy, with things given an intended role and designed to fulfill that role without clutter (i.e. masteries meant more for another class) - from the beginning. Meanwhile, you seem to be fine with bandaids, which in my experience are pretty much just a big game of Balance Jenga - as evidenced here with the Elysion nerf. You pull out this one piece and the whole tenuous "balance" is fucked with. If it was more structured from the very beginning that wouldn't be such an issue, as there would've been things to fall back on or better class design that didn't necessitate it (1-2 PAs like Sacred Skewer or Kaiser Rise, for one of many possible examples).

You come back to me with flimsy answers that aren't even relevant to what I'm talking about, and all of them are bandaids and afterthoughts. The class was fucked from the beginning, which is what my gripe is, and will continue to be after the next bandaid. I acknowledge it can get results - I use the damn class - but that doesn't mean I like its implementation or think its mechanics are good. Wand gear makes me moist, but so does being struck with hard objects. Just because it works doesn't mean it isn't without its flaws and won't result in problems in the future (Which, seriously, how can anyone think a quadratic damage formula won't eventually cause serious problems? And then basing a class around that? oh my fucking god)

[Cyhiwraith]

This whole topic aside from the 1st post seems silly, it's pretty much turned into what people like the most, uncharged or charged. If uncharged techs don't do the same damage as charged, people will bitch and say underpowered, but if they do match damage, well then charged is pointless, why risk getting hit while charging when you can just quick cast? It's impossible to balance it for equal damage. Uncharged is going to be 100% better if i t matches damage since it's way quicker (esp for techs like namegid, il foie, il barta, ect.) It seems like it's 100% impossible to be fair / balanced since the only way most people think it's balanced if pp cost + damage are 100% equal.

[gigawuts]

This whole topic aside from the 1st post seems silly, it's pretty much turned into what people like the most, uncharged or charged. If uncharged techs don't do the same damage as charged, people will bitch and say underpowered, but if they do match damage, well then charged is pointless, why risk getting hit while charging when you can just quick cast? It's impossible to balance it for equal damage. Uncharged is going to be 100% better if i t matches damage since it's way quicker (esp for techs like namegid, il foie, il barta, ect.) It seems like it's 100% impossible to be fair / balanced since the only way most people think it's balanced if pp cost + damage are 100% equal.

Seriously though - just give uncharged alternate effects.

Lower damage but then reduced PP cost, higher SE rate for some (gizan), faster movement speed for some (megid), a couple extra hits for some (gizonde getting extra leaps), etc.

Uncharged techs won't all be useful, but it's not like all of them are useful charged either so why are people even complaining.

If damage is the only balance point anyone ever considers, what gets more damage faster will be all anyone cares about. There needs to be more factors.

Anyway just give Elysion 100% PP refund when casting uncharged Foie. Nostalgia is clearly the only way to go.

[Cyhiwraith]

Seriously though - just give uncharged alternate effects.

Lower damage but then reduced PP cost, higher SE rate for some (gizan), faster movement speed for some (megid), a couple extra hits for some (gizonde getting extra leaps), etc.

Uncharged techs won't all be useful, but it's not like all of them are useful charged either so why are people even complaining.

If damage is the only balance point anyone ever considers, what gets more damage faster will be all anyone cares about. There needs to be more factors.

Anyway just give Elysion 100% PP refund when casting uncharged Foie. Nostalgia is clearly the only way to go.

Different mechanics could def work I'd think, it's just matching damage that seems silly to me. It makes sense to balance them base on mechanics rather than raw damage, like 99% of people like to do. To be honest though, most stuff dies so fast it seems damage is the only thing that matters sadly. Ultimate mode could change things a lot... I think all forces can remember how much they bitched when SH 1st came out.

[gigawuts]

Ultimate has potential to fix a lot of things in this game, but I really don't expect it to. I'm pretty much expecting what AQs were when they first came out: More HP and more damage for enemies, but not more of either for players. Also caps/passes required and no ability to simply run your favorite map as much as you want.

[Walkure]

Braver gets Attack Advance, which benefits Techer far more than it does Bullet Bows, and its Mastery skill increases DEX, when most 10*+ weapons have enough minimum damage to make this irrelevant.

Bouncer gets Craft Mastery, which should require no explanationDEX requirements, Red weapons, Mag masteries, Crafting, and things like Craft Master are all part of some long-running attempt to make players build and stack a stat that does literally nothing for the default mode of gameplay that is running around with a shiny weapon.

It's like a shitty narrative at this point with no end in sight, with the developers trying to make something absolutely and thoroughly useless into a thing by some new mechanic, without making it actually useful by default.

[gigawuts]

I'm pretty sure it's their idea of the "free player seeking average performance without spending a real life dime" stat.

Dex can be converted into atk on your mag, dex is required for a weapon in every category, dex raises your damage for every damage type, and it helps your damage when you craft a weapon.

It's just a shame because with some work they could make that a thing, except it isn't because it's so insufferably weak.

Incidentally, dex is one of the few things I think could be fixed with big number tweaks. Somehow involving it with critical hits (rate? damage?), making it raise your minimum damage more (non-linear minimum damage growth when above enemy's dex? possibly on a curve, with rapid growth followed by stalled growth when approaching rare weapon damage). There are a lot of ways they could address it.

[LonelyGaruga]

I prefer a more structured game design philosophy, with things given an intended role and designed to fulfill that role without clutter (i.e. masteries meant more for another class) - from the beginning. Meanwhile, you seem to be fine with bandaids

There isn't a single line where I said "I think Techer is a well designed class". I defend Sega, but I never said their design is good, or that it can't be improved upon. I think they're average at best and only now are actually making some decent changes, but they were working with principles that would be flawed from the outset. The whole thing is a wreck, but none of your ideas are any better. They're different. They aren't unarguable improvements to the system, and that is why I disagree with them. They aren't fully thought out and don't consider the entire game system of what Sega is doing. Sega's design team is looking at a bigger picture than you are. They have to think about all the additions they have to make, when they'll make them, and how it'll affect main and subclasses, and how they want the game to be, all while catering toward the players.

They suck at it, but that's what they face, while you and every single person that criticizes Sega does so with the perspective of a consumer. You aren't a developer working with time limits, budgets, and all the other restrictions they get faced with. You don't have to work with guidelines, you don't have to have your creative freedom limited by arbitrary goals. Your perspective is completely different from Sega's, and it is so easy to say "They should do X instead of Y", and you'd be right, the game would be better if they did X, but that doesn't mean they even could have in the first place.

A lot of the bashing Sega gets, with this perspective, is simply bad taste. It comes off as bashing for bashing's sake. It's disgusting. I don't like the choices made, but their design team doesn't deserve the criticisms it gets.

Tl;dr: Sega's wrong but so are the players.

[Maenara]

Ultimate has potential to fix a lot of things in this game, but I really don't expect it to. I'm pretty much expecting what AQs were when they first came out: More HP and more damage for enemies, but not more of either for players. Also caps/passes required and no ability to simply run your favorite map as much as you want.

>Run something as much as you want for free
>Get remotely worthwhile items while running

Pick one.

[Chdata]

Photon Arts only require a Trigger Sequence since the weapon performs the function, unfortunately the techs need to be crafted into the desired form so they'd logically it would require more time to function.

So PSO2 literally is Irregular at Magic High

[IndignationSWF]

So PSO2 literally is Irregular at Magic High
Yes, and we all have the potential to be Tatsuya. *shot repeatedly*

Seriously though, it would explain a few thngs though Sega will NEVER explain how Photons work in logical context so the point's moot regardless.

[gigawuts]

There isn't a single line where I said "I think Techer is a well designed class". I defend Sega, but I never said their design is good, or that it can't be improved upon. I think they're average at best and only now are actually making some decent changes, but they were working with principles that would be flawed from the outset. The whole thing is a wreck, but none of your ideas are any better. They're different. They aren't unarguable improvements to the system, and that is why I disagree with them. They aren't fully thought out and don't consider the entire game system of what Sega is doing. Sega's design team is looking at a bigger picture than you are. They have to think about all the additions they have to make, when they'll make them, and how it'll affect main and subclasses, and how they want the game to be, all while catering toward the players.

They suck at it, but that's what they face, while you and every single person that criticizes Sega does so with the perspective of a consumer. You aren't a developer working with time limits, budgets, and all the other restrictions they get faced with. You don't have to work with guidelines, you don't have to have your creative freedom limited by arbitrary goals. Your perspective is completely different from Sega's, and it is so easy to say "They should do X instead of Y", and you'd be right, the game would be better if they did X, but that doesn't mean they even could have in the first place.

A lot of the bashing Sega gets, with this perspective, is simply bad taste. It comes off as bashing for bashing's sake. It's disgusting. I don't like the choices made, but their design team doesn't deserve the criticisms it gets.

Tl;dr: Sega's wrong but so are the players.

I adore the way you just went on about how I don't know you, then went on about how you ~know~ me. All these assertions about what I want and don't want done, when it wasn't even mentioned. All these assertions about my work experience. All these assertions about what I've done, haven't done, and who I am.

Like, really. I genuinely enjoyed that.

Validating my opinion of you like a champ.

[LonelyGaruga]

I'm sorry, you're right. It was very rude of me to assume otherwise. Let me ask.

Do you work in Sega's Japanese branch? Are you a part of PSO2's design team? You are? My bad~

[gigawuts]

I'm sorry, you're right. It was very rude of me to assume otherwise. Let me ask.

Do you work in Sega's Japanese branch? Are you a part of PSO2's design team? You are? My bad~

I work for Sega with everybody's uncles.

Seriously though, hypocritically measure your peen harder please. Just try not to get visibly upset when I don't break out the ruler to tell you what length mine is. Here's a secret: It's not very long.

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't get it.

I made no assertions of your personality, the only thing I objected to.

The only assertions of your opinions and wants that I made are scattered everywhere on the forum. You regularly say what you think Sega should do and what you want Sega to do. These statements are consistently similar, with some ideas repeated. It's reasonable to assume that your statements are accurate to your opinions held.

The only assertion I made of your employment is accurate and reasonable to assume.

I'm not calling you names, qualifying you with things that may or may not be true, or heavily exaggerating your statements into insulting interpretations (Sakai comment).

How, exactly, am I being a hypocrite here?

[gigawuts]

I don't get it.

I made no assertions of your personality, the only thing I objected to.

The only assertions of your opinions and wants that I made are scattered everywhere on the forum. You regularly say what you think Sega should do and what you want Sega to do. These statements are consistently similar, with some ideas repeated. It's reasonable to assume that your statements are accurate to your opinions held.

The only assertion I made of your employment is accurate and reasonable to assume.

I'm not calling you names, qualifying you with things that may or may not be true, or heavily exaggerating your statements into insulting interpretations (Sakai comment).

How, exactly, am I being a hypocrite here?

You said you know me after saying I don't know you.

Hypocrite.

Are you actually taking offense to shit I'm saying though? Calm your tits. Unlike some people here, when I say something excessive it's said with full knowledge of that fact - a posting habit I picked up a long time ago that I forget isn't shared with everyone here. I can see how a lot of what I say could be taken personally. Sorry.

I do really dislike your quoteathons though. They're an instant turnoff for me, especially when a lot of it can be distilled down into something much more concise.

[Xaeris]

I think you two have reached PM territory by now.

[gigawuts]

By this point yes. It's gone, what, two meta levels deep?

By the point I say I'm sorry I'm usually done with a discussion though. When people actually seem to be taking my lively in-jest insults seriously I don't typically want to continue a discussion, and usually if it gets to that point it means the argument or discussion has reached a stalemate anyway.

In this case it's a lot of fundamental disagreements on how to design a class, with lonelygaruga assuming things and then using those assumptions against me while stating them as facts and me making dick jokes.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

By this point yes. It's gone, what, two meta levels deep?

By the point I say I'm sorry I'm usually done with a discussion though. When people actually seem to be taking my lively in-jest insults seriously I don't typically want to continue a discussion, and usually if it gets to that point it means the argument or discussion has reached a stalemate anyway.

In this case it's a lot of fundamental disagreements on how to design a class, with lonelygaruga assuming things and then using those assumptions against me while stating them as facts and me making dick jokes.

What matters is, you gave me something to quote in my sig forever

[Chdata]

There isn't a single line where I said "I think Techer is a well designed class". I defend Sega, but I never said their design is good, or that it can't be improved upon. I think they're average at best and only now are actually making some decent changes, but they were working with principles that would be flawed from the outset. The whole thing is a wreck, but none of your ideas are any better. They're different. They aren't unarguable improvements to the system, and that is why I disagree with them. They aren't fully thought out and don't consider the entire game system of what Sega is doing. Sega's design team is looking at a bigger picture than you are. They have to think about all the additions they have to make, when they'll make them, and how it'll affect main and subclasses, and how they want the game to be, all while catering toward the players.

They suck at it, but that's what they face, while you and every single person that criticizes Sega does so with the perspective of a consumer. You aren't a developer working with time limits, budgets, and all the other restrictions they get faced with. You don't have to work with guidelines, you don't have to have your creative freedom limited by arbitrary goals. Your perspective is completely different from Sega's, and it is so easy to say "They should do X instead of Y", and you'd be right, the game would be better if they did X, but that doesn't mean they even could have in the first place.

A lot of the bashing Sega gets, with this perspective, is simply bad taste. It comes off as bashing for bashing's sake. It's disgusting. I don't like the choices made, but their design team doesn't deserve the criticisms it gets.

Tl;dr: Sega's wrong but so are the players.

Hi, I'm a developer working with time limits, budgets, consumer happiness, game balance as the manager of a game mode as I perceive it should be, game balance as a player of a game mode and as they/I perceive it should be, and whatnot.

In particular, a modded TF2 game server running a juggernaut type game mode known as Versus Saxton Hale.
You can see the group here: https://steamcommunity.com/groups/tf2data

I don't really have to work with guidelines other than whatever I make up for myself or my community. Though if I had co-developers under me, they'd be strictly bound to my standards which is the case of PSO2's developers.

I see no excuse as to why SEGA's design team seemingly completely overlooks certain portions of game balance. The fact that they had to go back and readjust HUNDREDS of PAs is a direct show that they did something wrong the first time, as you concede. From what kind of issues I see them leaving around in terms of damage adjustment and whatnot, they themselves have committed things like, "Not knowing exactly how much a certain thing will affect gameplay until after it's been made live and months have passed with players messing with it"

Instead of what I do with my server - Think of everything I can combo this new thing I made with and how it impacts all sorts of gameplay paradigms, and test those, and make adjustments and then release it so hopefully I don't have to go back and change it again. Of course while doing this, sometimes there are things where you just cannot anticipate or predict what effect it will have on the game, but you can always fix it later. But I've only ran into this with some very specific or weird game mechanics.

Guld milla is a good example of not planning ahead. I myself would find it hell to balance a game with level progression because you have to take into account how much the player's HP, damage, defense, etc scales with their level, and how the stats of enemies scale. Damage scales so much more than actual player health which guld mila did not account for at all. If I made the weapon I would've at least taken note of that immediately.

Elysion... with the EP3 changes I don't really see this being needed. But if it's true that they're going to Lv.5 potentials soon, then the nerf is perfectly okay as they're actually planning ahead. Though I don't think the nerf is needed until that happens. But if it's also SEGA's game philosophy not to have one weapon very significantly better than others, then that too is justified to an extent. But then the state of fire techs isn't justified.

Craft techs... that one I would consider an oversight of specific/unusual game mechanics.

Meteor cudge I would consider an oversight.

Fire techs now, SHUNKA pre-nerf, Stylish Roll JA, practically everything that was OP for months at a time up until EP3. These are all examples of bad or no beta testing. As mentioned before, when I release a new game mechanic I test all sort of interactions with it, as well as the limits of its damage. I literally measure things like DPS as opposed to difficulty in aiming/causing that damage. I also think about how different it may be in the hands of a professional gamer as opposed to just anyone and in some cases allow it to be more rewarding for a pro player or cap its overall usefulness if it's something a pro player can really abuse even if that's only really 1 / 1000 players.

It literally feels like (up till now) all SEGA did to test new PAs and whatever they added, was tested with what you see in the advertisement videos. Level 60/60 while the max level is 70 while using shitty units and shitty weapons, not bothering to test different skill tree builds or the damage difference between really strong weapons and really weak weapons. I don't see how something like SHUNKA could have gotten past the development stage with its extremely disproportional power if SEGA were to have actually played its own game.

Another problem commonly overlooked that isn't all that important is the balance of pre-endgame. The balance of the game when you're level 20 for example. How powerful could you be at level 20? When Sroll JA first came out, not only did they make endgame OP for gunners, but Sroll JA was a full 2x damage at as little as level 10 or so. Now SEGA's completely dichotomized the skill trees which is really convenient for players. Not to mention, EXP rates really let you fly past N/H/VH mode to SH in no time now. This isn't necessarily a problem, as it is nice for the players at least and in the end the biggest emphasis on balance lies in the highest level content where most people will end up at anyway. When I designed my fake force skill tree (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3118609&highlight=force+skill#post3118609), I made it so some skills could only be obtained at a minimum level. Like you could only get charge PP revival with a minimum of 40 SP or so. Instead of 4 like it is now. Or you could only unlock certain damage increasing skills at a higher level, so you can't just stack so much damage at a low level and hit higher than intended.

The biggest discrepancy is the difference between what the managers of the game perceive as game balance and what players of the game perceive as game balance. For example, you won't believe how many people blindly suggest I make a joke melee weapon that does 5000% damage and has 75% faster attack rate. There's some players who might even think that's legitimately fine. (Though this being an exaggeration).

Also when you say there are times they "couldn't" have made a change... yeah... no. Most of the time, there's no excuse for saying they can't adjust numbers in their system to make the game more balanced. Often times there'll be big impacts and backlashes, players might get mad over needed nerfs, but I doubt that right now there are any or many game mechanics in which it would literally be too much programming work for them to do. All the balance changes coming this october are just changing numbers. All of the EP3 balance changes were just changing numbers (reload / animation time is a number and has a multiplier too).

I highly doubt SEGA is facing budget constraints like I am, especially just to change numbers. They'd literally have to be unable to pay their developers anything and be laying off their developers for their developers to not be able to change numbers which requires no real programming. The only budget constraints I run into are the cost of keeping my server alive and developing new content - e.g., I cannot edit or design 3D models and I either need to find people who will do it out of the good willingness of their hearts or pay people to make me things to use. I mean maybe there's some limit to how much work a programmer will do based on their pay or something and they aren't paying their developers... I guess? That doesn't seem like the case considering how new content they're always developing.

Time constraints? I guess they must have had something in their way if they couldn't have even tested their own shit in the past (SHUNKA). There's a lot of suggestions I see on this forum that really sound like they wouldn't be a whole ton of work to make to the game.


tl;dr pre-EP3, the statement that "Sega's design team is looking at a bigger picture than you are." is absolutely preposterous.

post-EP3 they seemed to gain a bigger view of things, but yeah. It's not uncommon for players of a game to know much more about what can actually be done in the game than developers who might not even really ever touch the game. I've seen it lots of times, I happen to be much more dedicated to my server's development than a lot of other servers out there who don't touch ongoing problems indefinitely. Whereas when I'm online I'm practically doing live maintenance of the game while people play. Some people will even host a server and never really ever play on it or even like the game mode. SEGA's pre-EP3 dev team seemed like the type that don't touch the game.

Also I lol'd


The whole thing is a wreck, but none of your ideas are any better.

Your perspective is completely different from Sega's, and it is so easy to say "They should do X instead of Y", and you'd be right, the game would be better if they did X, but

You seem pretty high and mighty telling other people that they have a myopic view of what changes can be made to the game because their view is that of a consumer's when you too are also a consumer who is not working at SEGA. I don't even know all their reasons for not doing things as a developer myself because I don't work there, but I have seen plenty of server owners who don't do anything because they're already making money and have no real care to do anything.

[Jaqlou Swig KING]

Holy shit.

[Chdata]

Changes that take place in the physical world are the result of forces. Forces are needed to pick frogs up, to move frogs from one place to another, to squeeze frogs, to stretch frogs, and so on.

[Sanguine2009]

Changes that take place in the physical world are the result of forces. Forces are needed to pick frogs up, to move frogs from one place to another, to squeeze frogs, to stretch frogs, and so on.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! FORCES ARE TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN THE WORLD! :-P

[Maenara]

Changes that take place in the physical world are the result of forces. Forces are needed to pick frogs up, to move frogs from one place to another, to squeeze frogs, to stretch frogs, and so on.

Take your fetishes elsewhere.

[gigawuts]

Take your fetishes elsewhere.

You can't make me.

But you can try if you like, since that's one of my fetishes.

[Chdata]

You can't make me.

But you can try if you like, since that's one of my fetishes.

W..what? I don't think that is something proper to be saying public... (´･ω･`)

[LonelyGaruga]

tl;dr pre-EP3, the statement that "Sega's design team is looking at a bigger picture than you are." is absolutely preposterous.

Just touching on this one.

Sega is looking at, what, 7 years more of PSO2? We only have right now to look at.

Absolutely, they have done a horrendous job many times and likely will continue to, and there has to be some occasions where they were entirely at fault without any excuse, like with Shunka, Namegid right now, and basic number tweaks. But I don't really see anyone bringing up that there are other factors that could be in play, and most will just bash Sega even for things that aren't actually a problem, like it's a habit.

This is the sole reason I bother defending Sega's design team. People bash them out of habit more than they do for legitimate reasons. They're not that great, but they don't suck as much as people say they do.

Regarding the comment of myopia further down, I know full well I don't know what's going on either, but most people aren't even aware those factors exist. I'm just pointing out they do, and between assuming they're incompetent and assuming they're creatively restricted, the latter leads to a lot less bashing and negative opinions and is about as reasonable an assumption as incompetence.

Unless people have fun bashing Sega. I don't know.

Do they?

[Sanguine2009]

it is kinda fun, yes. but they are making it harder and harder to do since the new guy took over. i dont agree with the elysion nerf but overall he has done a great job

[gigawuts]

W..what? I don't think that is something proper to be saying public... (´･ω･`)

saying improper things in public is one of my fetishes ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Cyhiwraith]

saying improper things in public is one of my fetishes ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

... :)

[BIG OLAF]

What matters is, you gave me something to quote in my sig forever

So, that's, what, six people with gigaquotes now?

[TaigaUC]

The thing with some of these imbalances is they aren't so much "new game design mistakes" as they are the result of past shit coming back to haunt SEGA.
Then there's stuff that seems to be result of shitty coding, which probably has nothing to do with the game designers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the newer changes were because of a random dev changing stuff without consulting others properly.

[Maenara]

Fun fact: Kreisenschlag was screwed up just like Infinite Fire, still hasn't been fixed though, despite having 95% episode 2 damage now instead of 200%.

[Cyhiwraith]

Fun fact: Kreisenschlag was screwed up just like Infinite Fire, still hasn't been fixed though, despite having 95% episode 2 damage now instead of 200%.

That is a pretty fun fact, are gunslashes even used anymore though? I havn't seen them in ages. Not since additional bullet spam on RA

[Maenara]

That is a pretty fun fact, are gunslashes even used anymore though? I havn't seen them in ages. Not since additional bullet spam on RA

Just posted this elsewhere:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq2YxW4TlDU

[Xaelouse]

That is a pretty fun fact, are gunslashes even used anymore though? I havn't seen them in ages. Not since additional bullet spam on RA

It would be used more on FI/HU if kreisenschlag was fixed. A lot, since besides meteor cudgel chaos riser it's probably FI's best bet at mobbing. A bit slower than bloody sarabande but has more range and can potentially hit way harder for sure.

[Cyhiwraith]

Just posted this elsewhere:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq2YxW4TlDU

Now that's pretty sexy. Didn't know they were still good.

[Chdata]

http://youtu.be/kcO_KjAs8a4

megid hitting 51-55k.

With a fire/dark tree.

You can actually hit a lot more than this because my units/weapon aren't fully affixed.

[milranduil]

http://youtu.be/kcO_KjAs8a4

megid hitting 51-55k.

With a fire/dark tree.

You can actually hit a lot more than this because my units/weapon aren't fully affixed.

60 atk vs 85 or 100 atk on wep + units is like 4-5% more damage, not twice as much lol. You also need to be aware that that area has dark & weak PSEs so you will see an increase there as well. For the record, with both of those PSE's active I hit ~40k megid, not weak point (meaning 85k-90k to those tall guys' faces).

[UnLucky]

It would be used more on FI/HU if kreisenschlag was fixed. A lot, since besides meteor cudgel chaos riser it's probably FI's best bet at mobbing. A bit slower than bloody sarabande but has more range and can potentially hit way harder for sure.
But like all of the actual AoE is ranged damage. The spinning blades can pass right through enemies without actually hitting them since you're in shooting mode.

[Zyrusticae]

post-EP3 they seemed to gain a bigger view of things, but yeah. It's not uncommon for players of a game to know much more about what can actually be done in the game than developers who might not even really ever touch the game. I've seen it lots of times, I happen to be much more dedicated to my server's development than a lot of other servers out there who don't touch ongoing problems indefinitely. Whereas when I'm online I'm practically doing live maintenance of the game while people play. Some people will even host a server and never really ever play on it or even like the game mode. SEGA's pre-EP3 dev team seemed like the type that don't touch the game.

This is something that really struck me about Yoshida's rebuild of Final Fantasy XIV. He once said, paraphrased, that game developers are like leaders of a country. If they don't live there (i.e. play their game), why in the world would their citizens (i.e. players) want to? Indeed, game developers should regularly play their own games so that they are in touch with what is actually needed and how things are running. A game that the developers can be proud of and want to actually play themselves is going to be far more successful than a game that is developed in a vacuum with the bare minimum of testing.

I think this is something From Software does as well. In fact, their niche game design is pretty much built out of their own beliefs as to how their games should play, how they should feel, and so on. This hits some times (the Souls games) and misses in others (the Armored Core games) but you can always see their passion in the games they make.

With SEGA? Yeah, not so much. Well, at least we know the guy in charge of game balance actually plays the game (it was why he was picked, after all), and we can see the fruits of his labour with Episode 3, but a lot of these problems could have been prevented simply by the devs actually caring about this shit in the first place. Hell, one guy with a spreadsheet and a decent grasp of basic arithmetic could have prevented most of the more egregiously stupid problems from ever coming to fore.

Anyway... yeah. Just sayin'.

[Galax]

^That goes for writers too.

"If there is a book you want to read, but isn't written yet, then by God you must write it."

Also

"Write a book you would enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, how can you expect your readers to?"

Mildly paraphrased.

[Chdata]

Yeah, for the servers I host/dev, I happen to have over 3000 hours in that particular game mode alone, 4000 in the game as a whole.

Being that way you just know how the game works, what things players use and gravitate to, etc. You can code changes to the game and actually have an idea of every single thing it'll impact in the game.

[Achelousaurus]

Wand Stance keeps gear filled always now, so filling gear isn't a thing anymore.

So just zondeel (make sure to have Territory Burst and craft your Zondeel for additional range) em and whack em. bosses, just have a proper element wand (you could get a rainbow set of that new 10 star one that drops in Shironia) and keep on whacking (or use Loveless One if you're lazy).

Your friend is silly. Sounds like she's jealous of melee being able to do other things besides charge up spells and wreck things for 5 digit numbers (or high 4 digits at worst).
Thanks.
Totally gotta try that.


I can understand this argument, and even agree that it can work (in the same way, a perfectly fine mechanic can be ruined with number tweaks, so obviously the opposite can be true).

But I really feel techer just isn't that. It's being pulled in 3 separate directions at once and people try to argue it's fine because you don't have to go all 3, or even 2. I disagree that this makes it okay. It should be rebuilt from the ground up to give it better degrees of synergy between its intended roles, and to allow better blending between them like we find on other classes (most notably Hunter now - fury + automate is totally possible and even good in many situations).

Why give Techer Element Weak Hit and then just three masteries (2 being the least common until Ep 2), without anything to give enemies more weaknesses? Why give it nothing to speed up charge times on anything at all, when the gear relied on charged techs? Why make it rely on tech crafting for that? Why give it nothing to raise effectiveness of comboing? If it's meant to use techs, why keep the masteries as purely damage instead of allowing them to have more specialized abilities like larger AOE or more hits? Why rely purely on step and a single tech for gap closing?

Why give it PP restorate, which in no way whatsoever combines with its other abilities? Why give it this plethora of skills that are only truly effective if used with the appropriate sub/main combo?

What other class has this level of tedium? This last question is the most important here, because the issues here are of context. It's not that Techer can't be effective, or can't do things; it can. It's that it's the only class to face this level of poor planning and synergy, resulting in a lack of options and customization due to having to bear approximately the same number of skills as other classes - and many of Techer's skills aren't for Techer. Skills on other classes were designed to go hand in hand. Other classes were created for their own sake. Techer exists to hold the other 3 masteries, then as an afterthought has Wand Gear plus an active skill that turns wands into what they should be innately.
Yeah.
I would prefer if force could go true generalist build and get boost 1 for all elements at least, removing the element boosts from techer.
I like generalist builds because they are very flexible and before you know your definitive playstyle, a generalist build is best (or if you like mix things up often and don't always do the same).
And I think techer is too similar too force, fi isn't as similar to hu and gu isn't as similar to ra.


Uncharged techs make sense to me... if you have an air powered BB gun, what happens when you pump it once compaired to pumping it 8 times? If uncharged techs hit just as hard as charged, there wouldn't be any point in charged, that's just silly. It's like a pitcher throwing the baseball without winding up, it's gonna be slower, not go as far, and get hit way easier.

You gather less photons as well, so it makes no sense to be as strong or stronger. Like, it makes sense they are weaker/smaller/less range ect ect ect. Seriously, just take a rubber band and pull it 1/2 way it's max length then pull it back as far as you can and there is a HUGE difference, not just how much it'll hurt.
PHOTONS, son!
PHOTONS!
Point is, lets not bring physics, logic or common sense into this cause it's 100% made up BS and makes me cringe and all I do is read some sorta hard sci-fi books and watch the occasional Michio Kaku vid.

But what I agree with is that it's not good that you either have massive damage when charging or tiny damage when not charging.
I agree with the pp refund or something like this, make it 2 different play style and not just a matter of when you can charge or when you have to dodge and can't charge (though now that apparently isn't nearly as much of a problem anymore).


But instantly activated Photon Arts are totally fine and make complete sense then? Even ranged attacks. But not techs.
Ok, at the price that charged techs no longer do ridiculous damage but rather are on par strong melee PAs.
And seriously, an uncharged Hatou, Kanran or Shunka is pathetic.
Without gear Sword Pas take up to like 10 seconds to charge for low damage.
Which means some techs would have to be changed so that you cannot actually charge them to be the same as uncharged melee techs.
My point being that force is played as it is, if you remove every downside of it you are no longer playing one kind of style but you can do everything, like giving melee classes a ranged attack that has rifle ranger and Cosmos Breaker tier damage.

[Tournesol]

http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1411042023/62 foie, gifoie, rafoie nerfs incoming in october too?..

[Shinmarizu]

http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1411042023/62 foie, gifoie, rafoie nerfs incoming in october too?..

No specific timeframe in play, but at least an acknowledgement that this is getting out of hand...

[IndignationSWF]

That's good to see, hopefully they don't hit them TOO hard though since Respecs are a pain.

[Bellion]

Yep, so they've finally paid attention.
1 Fire Force in TD1 can carry an entire lane for mobbing. 2x Gifoie for instant Golda spawn killing, Rafoie for runners, they can Zondeel, have a powerful J.Nifta to wipe out a single wave 4/6 mob spawn at once. They were able to do everything there except the 3 bosses in which a Ra usually got involved with.

Same stuff applied to TD2, and to TD3 before AIS.

Capable of hitting 45k per Gifoie and 24k+ Rafoie non-weakpoints. Foie and Rafoie are pretty much the same damage. Even if they nerf Gifoie, they'll still have Zondeel + Safoie(about as strong as Gifoie is currently).
If the nerfs are pre-ep3 modifiers, they'll all still be pretty good.

What I'm wondering is why the heck they even bothered to buff Cluster Bullet, and those 3 Foie techs in the first place? They were already good enough. Since SEGA is letting Safoie(short distance sweeping AoE unlike Gifoie) keep the ep3 buff, maybe they're starting to get it. Although, they decided to pay attention to Elysion's potential(after all these months) first before the Foie techs.

The reason why most people only pay attention to damage now is because that's what SEGA modifiers 90%+ of the damn time.

Edit: Oh, so it's fake. Welp, can't say I'm completely surprised.

[Xaelouse]

http://awabi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1411042023/62 foie, gifoie, rafoie nerfs incoming in october too?..

is there another source on this besides 2ch?

[Aine]

it's fake though
they haven't mentioned anything about fire techs