What do we think of the races of PSO2?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Going through an ancient thread about beast speculation before PSO2 was released, and how people didn't like how certain racial traits (insert CAST master race here) made other certain races redundant in PSU got me thinking about 'what if races were actually unique, and somewhat balanced?'

By unique, I don't mean asthetically obviously (I've come to terms with how different ears is the most defining way to characterize the different races), I mean like PSO unique, except not totally gamebreaking and adapted for PSO2.

The ship probably long sailed on an opportunity to do this, but for example; newmans don't have to sub/main Fo, Te, or Bo in order to use basic techs, and by basic techs, I mean the ones literally labeled basic tech when translated, such as foie, barta, megid, and the corresponding field support tech each element has (resta and anti aren't listed as basic techs, but should be included anyway because it's fking resta and anti, and similar in style to shifta, deband, zondeel, and -verse techs). This even doubles as a way to be a hybrid without having to play Te, or Bo in a certain fashion without gimping yourself (otherwise, you'd main some other striking/ranged class and sub Fo or Te and gimp yourself). Hell, susanoguren's T atk would actually have some sort of purpose, as well as other weapons with extra stats like coat edge.

I don't have much more ideas for other races to have more defining features about them at this time though

The dissapointment of HUnewearl going from something unique with its own advantages and disadvantages in PSO to just a way to identify a Hu with the worst possible base stats in PSO2 is catching up to me a little.

Anyone else kinda miss traits, and tradeoffs races had like that instead of the current 'playing this race/gender with these classes isn't as good as another because of numberz'? What would you do?

[Zyrusticae]

Humans: Nothing. HUMANS SUCK!

*ahem* But more seriously, every skill that says 'main-class only' they can use while it's a subclass. Bam, instant versatility.

Newmans: Can always cast techs. Any tech. No matter what class. (Not much point to using offensive techs without Fo but you can at least use Resta and Anti freely as opposed to chugging mates and atomizers while throwing out the occasional Zondeel or whatever). As a bonus, they always have 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival (picking it up on the Force tree would just increase it to full effectiveness) that works with any charged attack. Edit: They still need something to differentiate themselves when they actually are playing Fo/Te, so instead of just 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival, add an extra 50% more PP regen that doesn't pause during charges. They become the ultimate PP management race.

Dewmans: Get shorter cooldowns on everything. More Katana Combat, more Showtime, more Chain Trigger, whatever.

Casts: Immune to poison, always have trap-sense, have passive health regen (NANOMACHINES, SON).

Beasts (hypothetically): Super-armor; they cannot be flinched unless hit two or more times in quick succession (say, a 0.5s window).

I have no idea if this would be balanced, but at least every race ends up with a worthwhile perk of their own.

[Stealthcmc1974]

Humans: Nothing. HUMANS SUCK!

*ahem* But more seriously, every skill that says 'main-class only' they can use while it's a subclass. Bam, instant versatility.

Newmans: Can always cast techs. Any tech. No matter what class. (Not much point to using offensive techs without Fo but you can at least use Resta and Anti freely as opposed to chugging mates and atomizers while throwing out the occasional Zondeel or whatever). As a bonus, they always have 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival (picking it up on the Force tree would just increase it to full effectiveness) that works with any charged attack. Edit: They still need something to differentiate themselves when they actually are playing Fo/Te, so instead of just 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival, add an extra 50% more PP regen that doesn't pause during charges. They become the ultimate PP management race.

Dewmans: Get shorter cooldowns on everything. More Katana Combat, more Showtime, more Chain Trigger, whatever.

Casts: Immune to poison, always have trap-sense, have passive health regen (NANOMACHINES, SON).

Beasts (hypothetically): Super-armor; they cannot be flinched unless hit two or more times in quick succession (say, a 0.5s window).

I have no idea if this would be balanced, but at least every race ends up with a worthwhile perk of their own.

Can we sneak you into SEGA so we can make these changes? Seriously though, best idea I've heard in a while. ^^

[Zorafim]

Really, wouldn't it make more sense for CASTs to be the ones that don't regenerate? Humans already have miniature things in them that repair damage, while cars don't.

Anyway, I've always thought that newmans should have lower strength, but greater TP regeneration. It's an easy way to make a quick, skilled playstyle.
And in the same way, casts should have greater strength, and lower TP regeneration, for the same reason.

[Darki]

Really, wouldn't it make more sense for CASTs to be the ones that don't regenerate? Humans already have miniature things in them that repair damage, while cars don't.

Given how CASTs have AIs that seem to be on par or even superior to human sentience, I don't see why wouldn't they also have miniature machines in them that repair damage. In fact to me it seems tenchologically easier to accomplish than AIs.

[Edson Drake]

I'd like that. Always thought that it is inconsistent compared to PSO.

We shouldn't have this main class only stuff on skill trees and races should matter. I like the newman suggestion and makes sense, would make possible a magic knight/paladin class.

Personally, I think Casts should have trap vision by default, but instead it was a Ranger skill and now it's free for Rangers(either as main or sub), but it should be a Cast skill only, like it was in PSO. I also would like the passive slow regen for Casts to make a return. Casts, being sturdy robots can take a beating much better than fleshies so they should have a passive Massive Hunter skill going on too.

Humans should receive the highest bonuses of all classes. For example: while humans are average, they created everything, meaning they are very skillful, resulting in all of their skills receiving a 5% bonus. I think this should make up for their average stats(and lack of appeal), thus, making them far more desirable.

For Newmans, higher PP regen, and again Tech quirks(the normal, GI or RA/NA/SA bonuses). Also slightly higher HP and defence stats when going a different class than FO/TE.

I have no idea how to make Deumans.

But then, they went the dressing doll route, meaning that choosing your main character for looks has priority because that's how Sega planned to make money. So I think the chance of this system ever getting revised is close to none.

(ahhh some of my ideas were already covered dang)

[Zyrusticae]

Can we sneak you into SEGA so we can make these changes? Seriously though, best idea I've heard in a while. ^^
Haha, well, thanks for the compliment. I'm really just throwing things out there, since the OP asked. ^^;


Really, wouldn't it make more sense for CASTs to be the ones that don't regenerate? Humans already have miniature things in them that repair damage, while cars don't.
Humans can't regrow bone or repair damaged nerves, and our healing factor works on a scale of days, weeks, months, or even years for particularly bad trauma. Everything a CAST is made out of is synthetic, so they can benefit more from nanomachine repair. It's far more advanced technology than we actually have today.

More to the point, I was kind of having trouble as to what else to give them. :-?

I do like the idea of CASTs having greater burst while Newmans have greater sustain. That's another route you can take, I suppose.

[Dycize]

I also second Zyru's ideas!
Except maybe dumans and beasts.
Dumans because I always found using active skills pretty clunky in PSO2, plus, you won't necessarily benefit from it (newmans' PP regen boost and casts' HP regen, for example, are always useful, humans being able to use main only skills as sub is also good, because main only skills tend to be really nifty). Something like a built-in fury combo / tech arts JA bonus maybe? The more they chain JAs, the more they deal damage, but all the time on all classes. Maybe +1% per JA and it could cap at +15%? Keep on the offensive and get those bonuses rolling, you offense-based race you.

Just super armor for beasts feels lackluster. Super armor is useful, but if two hits kill you, in quick succession, super armor won't always help you. Maybe throw in a passive buff to their defense when their HP gets lower, kind of like FI's slayer skills, but with +%def instead of +atk. Heck, you could even throw in +%atk in there too as the beast gets really angry and instincts take over while low on HP.

Oh how I wish my caseal had passive HP regen, as a defense HU player, I'd simply never die.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Humans: Nothing. HUMANS SUCK!

*ahem* But more seriously, every skill that says 'main-class only' they can use while it's a subclass. Bam, instant versatility.

Newmans: Can always cast techs. Any tech. No matter what class. (Not much point to using offensive techs without Fo but you can at least use Resta and Anti freely as opposed to chugging mates and atomizers while throwing out the occasional Zondeel or whatever). As a bonus, they always have 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival (picking it up on the Force tree would just increase it to full effectiveness) that works with any charged attack. Edit: They still need something to differentiate themselves when they actually are playing Fo/Te, so instead of just 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival, add an extra 50% more PP regen that doesn't pause during charges. They become the ultimate PP management race.

Dewmans: Get shorter cooldowns on everything. More Katana Combat, more Showtime, more Chain Trigger, whatever.

Casts: Immune to poison, always have trap-sense, have passive health regen (NANOMACHINES, SON).

Beasts (hypothetically): Super-armor; they cannot be flinched unless hit two or more times in quick succession (say, a 0.5s window).

I have no idea if this would be balanced, but at least every race ends up with a worthwhile perk of their own.

Thank you! That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about!

With traits like that, I wouldn't mind differences in base stats, consider them worthy tradeoffs, and every race will have something unique to bring to any class (well ofc you'd need to give humans something, and even give the hypothetical beasts a little more, but it's the overall idea).

With a lack of racial traits like this, more weight is put on base stats than there should be as well as the question of 'how do you like your ears?', or 'do you like cast parts?'.

[Sizustar]

Given how CASTs have AIs that seem to be on par or even superior to human sentience, I don't see why wouldn't they also have miniature machines in them that repair damage. In fact to me it seems tenchologically easier to accomplish than AIs.

Cast were once human, like Lisa's case.

[Scale of Judgment]

Lisa should of been a protoss Dragoon...

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Cast were once human, like Lisa's case.

Potential spoiler territory, but tell me more. Preferably in PM I guess. Don't want to risk derailing.

[Dycize]

Actually I've been wondering since Sega is very helpful with the game's lore *cough* But are all casts former humans? That would pretty much kill the feeling of being a robot if inside you're still supposed to be human (even if it can screw with your brain).

[Sanguine2009]

Actually I've been wondering since Sega is very helpful with the game's lore *cough* But are all casts former humans? That would pretty much kill the feeling of being a robot if inside you're still supposed to be human (even if it can screw with your brain).

i got the impression that there were both, some that were built from scratch and some that were repurposed fleshies

[Xaeris]

If I could somehow be reassured that racial differences would be balanced, then sure, I would like that; it would add flavor to the world for each race to have capabilities that reflect their different aptitudes and interactions with photons. Realistically though, racial differences are a choice between flavor, game balance, or some lame compromise where the differences don't amount to anything substantial. I mean, even Blizzard hasn't figured it out yet and they've been at it for ten years. What chance does the arithmetically challenged Sega have?

So as far as I'm concerned, Sega picked the lesser of two evils by making the racial differences in PSO2 amount to a few %s of difference.

[strikerhunter]

Humans: Nothing. HUMANS SUCK!

*ahem* But more seriously, every skill that says 'main-class only' they can use while it's a subclass. Bam, instant versatility.

Newmans: Can always cast techs. Any tech. No matter what class. (Not much point to using offensive techs without Fo but you can at least use Resta and Anti freely as opposed to chugging mates and atomizers while throwing out the occasional Zondeel or whatever). As a bonus, they always have 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival (picking it up on the Force tree would just increase it to full effectiveness) that works with any charged attack. Edit: They still need something to differentiate themselves when they actually are playing Fo/Te, so instead of just 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival, add an extra 50% more PP regen that doesn't pause during charges. They become the ultimate PP management race.

Dewmans: Get shorter cooldowns on everything. More Katana Combat, more Showtime, more Chain Trigger, whatever.

Casts: Immune to poison, always have trap-sense, have passive health regen (NANOMACHINES, SON).

Beasts (hypothetically): Super-armor; they cannot be flinched unless hit two or more times in quick succession (say, a 0.5s window).

I have no idea if this would be balanced, but at least every race ends up with a worthwhile perk of their own.

This, love the idea.

Remove that health regain from Cast and replace it with a hover ability at the height of 1 jump (holding down jump button).

As for humans, since human is an all around race let them have the ability to equip any weapon regardless of class restrictions.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

If I could somehow be reassured that racial differences would be balanced, then sure, I would like that; it would add flavor to the world for each race to have capabilities that reflect their different aptitudes and interactions with photons. Realistically though, racial differences are a choice between flavor, game balance, or some lame compromise where the differences don't amount to anything substantial. I mean, even Blizzard hasn't figured it out yet and they've been at it for ten years. What chance does the arithmetically challenged Sega have?

So as far as I'm concerned, Sega picked the lesser of two evils by making the racial differences in PSO2 amount to a few %s of difference.

Well seeing as PvE and PvP content in WoW (which is a game that demands a sub. fee to play, as well as the prices of expansions) is something that spans countries with people vying for world firsts and recognition across countries, Blizzard needs to be far more stringent on balance outliers compared to PSO.

As a person who obviously played both games, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with a few racial ideas in PSO2 like the ones put up earlier, compared to the shitstorm every man for himself and will of the forsaken has caused in WoW for over a half a decade. I'm sure most others wouldn't really care as much either since PSO2 is nowhere near as bleeding-edge competitive, nor does it demand a monthly fee/expansion purchase to have the opportunity to play.

Aside from the balance problems they caused, unique racial abilities in WoW at least gave a player the feeling of 'I may not be able to do X as a rogue of Y race, but at least I can do Z'. We can't say that if you're a cast Fo/(appropriate sub), or newearl (S atk focused melee combination). The current perks are too focused on specific classes rather than being somewhat useful on whatever you want to do as whatever race.

Anyway... yeah you're right, ultimately as long as racials don't have substantial differences in power between them it's perfectly fine. The way the game is now, though, we at least know the meta boils down to one-shotting, and going fast. As long as racials don't totally mess with either of those things, seems like fair game to be as creative with racial traits as you want to be (at least until SEGA decides to totally overhaul the pace of combat anyway).



Maybe also give CASTs faster in-combat movement speed? Can't be too much tho, or else they end up the default time attack race.

Like I said, racial differences that mess with the meta like this obviously needs to be avoided.

Being able to cast support techs (or offensive techs) that aren't backed up as well in the hands of non-caster classes, or regen slightly more PP when most things don't even survive very long is fine.
Being able to take a hit better in a game where 90% of player survivability hinges on not getting hit in the first place is fine.

[Zyrusticae]

I also second Zyru's ideas!
Except maybe dumans and beasts.
Dumans because I always found using active skills pretty clunky in PSO2, plus, you won't necessarily benefit from it (newmans' PP regen boost and casts' HP regen, for example, are always useful, humans being able to use main only skills as sub is also good, because main only skills tend to be really nifty). Something like a built-in fury combo / tech arts JA bonus maybe? The more they chain JAs, the more they deal damage, but all the time on all classes. Maybe +1% per JA and it could cap at +15%? Keep on the offensive and get those bonuses rolling, you offense-based race you.

Just super armor for beasts feels lackluster. Super armor is useful, but if two hits kill you, in quick succession, super armor won't always help you. Maybe throw in a passive buff to their defense when their HP gets lower, kind of like FI's slayer skills, but with +%def instead of +atk. Heck, you could even throw in +%atk in there too as the beast gets really angry and instincts take over while low on HP.

Oh how I wish my caseal had passive HP regen, as a defense HU player, I'd simply never die.Yeah, these are good points.

With the way damage works super armor alone wouldn't be good enough. Mind you, if I had my way I'd completely rejigger the whole HP vs Defense vs Attack balance in the game, but given the way the game currently works some kind of increased damage reduction would be the next best thing.

Dewman racial JA combo up is pretty much perfect. Fits their racial flavor, is distinct from everything else. I like.


This, love the idea.

Remove that health regain from Cast and replace it with a hover ability at the height of 1 jump (holding down jump button).

As for humans, since human is an all around race let them have the ability to equip any weapon regardless of class restrictions.Not bad, not bad.

Maybe also give CASTs faster in-combat movement speed? Can't be too much tho, or else they end up the default time attack race.

So it'd be more like this:

Humans: Main-class only skills are not main-class only for humans, and they can use any weapon as any class (techs are still restricted, however).

Newmans: Can cast techs regardless of class, and get +50% (value is hypothetical) PP regen. The bonus PP regen does not pause during charging (but their normal PP regen pauses as normal unless they have Charge PP Revival).

Dewmans: 20% cooldown reduction on all active skills, plus a built-in JA combo up that accumulates 3% more damage per successive Just Attack. There is a soft cap at 15% damage where successive attacks increase the bonus by 2%, and again at 25% where successive attacks increase the bonus by 1%, but the counter resets as soon as they miss a JA, stop attacking, or receive damage.

Casts: Poison immunity, automatic trap-sense, passive HP regen (percentage-based, like 3% per second), can hover in the air by holding the jump button, and have 10% faster in-combat movement speed (out of combat is still the same).

Beasts (hypothetical): Super armor (must be hit twice or more within 1s to be flinched), and gain a stacking 20% damage reduction for every 20% of HP they lose from maximum, capping out at 80% damage reduction at the last 20% of HP. Attacks that would kill the Beast in a single blow instead only bring them down to 20% of their HP.

[gigawuts]

Humans: Nothing. HUMANS SUCK!

*ahem* But more seriously, every skill that says 'main-class only' they can use while it's a subclass. Bam, instant versatility.

Newmans: Can always cast techs. Any tech. No matter what class. (Not much point to using offensive techs without Fo but you can at least use Resta and Anti freely as opposed to chugging mates and atomizers while throwing out the occasional Zondeel or whatever). As a bonus, they always have 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival (picking it up on the Force tree would just increase it to full effectiveness) that works with any charged attack. Edit: They still need something to differentiate themselves when they actually are playing Fo/Te, so instead of just 1/2-effectiveness charge PP revival, add an extra 50% more PP regen that doesn't pause during charges. They become the ultimate PP management race.

Dewmans: Get shorter cooldowns on everything. More Katana Combat, more Showtime, more Chain Trigger, whatever.

Casts: Immune to poison, always have trap-sense, have passive health regen (NANOMACHINES, SON).

Beasts (hypothetically): Super-armor; they cannot be flinched unless hit two or more times in quick succession (say, a 0.5s window).

I have no idea if this would be balanced, but at least every race ends up with a worthwhile perk of their own.

hahahaha that balance discrepancy is hilarious

mainclass skills on sub for humans, 50% charge revival at all times for newmans, reduced cooldowns on dewmans, flinch immunity for beasts, and then...

a worthless SE immunity, a skill so trivial most people ignored it on RA until it was free, and passive hp regen for casts?

jesus

that human idea should never be given to anything ever, unless it's done for everyone at all times

No, what needs to be done is a Character skilltree. You'd select this like a bronze subclass, separate from other classes. There would be a Support version (enables all support techs plus PP revival for them), a Scout version (All unique grenades/traps/bullets from ranger available in grenade form + self-heal + Heal Trap [lol]), and then something based on beasts (probably something to do with speed or maneuverability, possibly including double jumping). A dewman version could have to do with adding JA circles after various actions (fistpumps, just reversal, that sort of thing).

None should [I]directly affect damage; just augment your normal ability to deal damage. No JA Bonuses or Stat Ups here.

This is mainly because, as it is, with 8 classes each offering their own unique bonuses and weapon abilities, you can't have any real blending or customization. You have maybe two things you'd like, but PSO1's classes sold themselves on way more than 2 things...and indeed, when damage is your biggest factor, if damage isn't one of those things then it's an undesirable option.

[Zyrusticae]

hahahaha that balance discrepancy is hilarious

mainclass skills on sub for humans, 50% charge revival at all times for newmans, reduced cooldowns on dewmans, flinch immunity for beasts, and then...

a worthless SE immunity, a skill so trivial most people ignored it on RA until it was free, and passive hp regen for casts?

jesus

that human idea should never be given to anything ever, unless it's done for everyone at all times
Easy there, buddy. Just throwing shit out there. I'm well aware that the numbers would have to be pretty crazy for there to actually be a balance.


No, what needs to be done is a Character skilltree. You'd select this like a bronze subclass, separate from other classes. There would be a Support version (enables all support techs plus PP revival for them), a Scout version (All unique grenades/traps/bullets from ranger available in grenade form + self-heal + Heal Trap [lol]), and then something based on beasts (probably something to do with speed or maneuverability, possibly including double jumping). A dewman version could have to do with adding JA circles after various actions (fistpumps, just reversal, that sort of thing).

None should [I]directly affect damage; just augment your normal ability to deal damage. No JA Bonuses or Stat Ups here.

This is mainly because, as it is, with 8 classes each offering their own unique bonuses and weapon abilities, you can't have any real blending or customization. You have maybe two things you'd like, but PSO1's classes sold themselves on way more than 2 things...and indeed, when damage is your biggest factor, if damage isn't one of those things then it's an undesirable option.You know what, that's actually really good. I was thinking on something along those lines as well. Having it be character-specific instead of race-specific makes a lot more sense in terms of having balance issues only affect each specific tree (or their specific abilities) rather than reducing the desirability of a race that you can only pick at character creation.

[UnLucky]

Male Human : Equipment grinds can go up to +20
Female Human : Weapon latents can go up to lv5
Male Newman : Double PP regen from attacks, base PP is 200
Female Newman : Double passive PP regen, 50% PP cost
Male CAST : Deal and receive half damage, can't use techs, base PP is 50
Female CAST : Is the only race that can be a Ranger
Male Dewman : Deal and receive double damage
Female Dewman : Double attack speed and movement speed

Now we're balancing like Sega!

P.S. Equipment upgraded by humans can be traded if they're not otherwise account bound

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Male Human : Equipment grinds can go up to +20
Female Human : Weapon latents can go up to lv5
Male Newman : Double PP regen from attacks, base PP is 200
Female Newman : Double passive PP regen, 50% PP cost
Male CAST : Deal and receive half damage, can't use techs, base PP is 50
Female CAST : Is the only race that can be a Ranger
Male Dewman : Deal and receive double damage
Female Dewman : Double attack speed and movement speed

Now we're balancing like Sega!

P.S. Equipment upgraded by humans can be traded if they're not otherwise account bound

You a funny guy.

[Xaelouse]

how about, only for cast, no PP restriction in the middle of PAs only? Faster charge speed on PAs+Techs while we're at it

[Maenara]

Cast: Immune to radiation in new irradiated areas, radiation which instantly kills all other races.

[gigawuts]

Easy there, buddy. Just throwing shit out there. I'm well aware that the numbers would have to be pretty crazy for there to actually be a balance.

You know what, that's actually really good. I was thinking on something along those lines as well. Having it be character-specific instead of race-specific makes a lot more sense in terms of having balance issues only affect each specific tree (or their specific abilities) rather than reducing the desirability of a race that you can only pick at character creation.

Yeah, that's why I say it should be character-based like a third class and not race-based. The reason the race/gender differences worked in PSO1 was because race & gender were part of your class. Each character was its own class. You didn't pick "hunter," you picked "hunter with specific bonuses." No two characters were the same. Compared to PSO2, you weren't a cast hunter like you can be in PSO1, you were more like a HU/Cast/male in PSO2 terms.

And that's fine for PSO1, but PSO2 isn't PSO1. You could make and remake (for free) 4 characters no problems, get a second memory card, etc. In PSO2 you get two characters and things that cost real money can be tied to that specific character.

Not to mention, since they're shifting race to be largely cosmetic, and PSO2 sells itself on customization where PSO1 really just didn't, that more visual options are definitely preferable. I have no problems seeing a PSO1 HUnewearl archetype being emulated effectively with a cast, and I have no problems seeing a newearl with auto recovery, traps, and trap vision.


how about, only for cast, no PP restriction in the middle of PAs only? Faster charge speed on PAs+Techs while we're at it

This is something I've wanted tied to HU, but thinking on it it's actually a better fit for FI. FI does need something, and PA PP Revival isn't a bad addition. There would need to be a few more chargeable PAs added though, particularly for daggers. Either that or it's Attack PP Revival, recovering PP during attack animations instead (ely+sazan makes a comeback?).

[Sparzyle]

Cast: Immune to radiation in new irradiated areas, radiation which instantly kills all other races.
So, Motavia map? Yush!
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110914233853/phantasystar/images/2/2d/Motavia_gas.png

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Yeah, that's why I say it should be character-based like a third class and not race-based. The reason the race/gender differences worked in PSO1 was because race & gender were part of your class. Each character was its own class. You didn't pick "hunter," you picked "hunter with specific bonuses." No two characters were the same. Compared to PSO2, you weren't a cast hunter like you can be in PSO1, you were more like a HU/Cast/male in PSO2 terms.

And that's fine for PSO1, but PSO2 isn't PSO1. You could make and remake (for free) 4 characters no problems, get a second memory card, etc. In PSO2 you get two characters and things that cost real money can be tied to that specific character.

Not to mention, since they're shifting race to be largely cosmetic, and PSO2 sells itself on customization where PSO1 really just didn't, that more visual options are definitely preferable. I have no problems seeing a PSO1 HUnewearl archetype being emulated effectively with a cast, and I have no problems seeing a newearl with auto recovery, traps, and trap vision.

So, sorta like shifting those unique perks into a 3rd class choice is what you're getting at?

[Hobu]

Male Human : Equipment grinds can go up to +20
Female Human : Weapon latents can go up to lv5
Male Newman : Double PP regen from attacks, base PP is 200
Female Newman : Double passive PP regen, 50% PP cost
Male CAST : Deal and receive half damage, can't use techs, base PP is 50
Female CAST : Is the only race that can be a Ranger
Male Dewman : Deal and receive double damage
Female Dewman : Double attack speed and movement speed

Now we're balancing like Sega!

P.S. Equipment upgraded by humans can be traded if they're not otherwise account bound

I'm a male dewman. With bonuses like that, I won't be complaining. I die in 2 hits already, so its either perfect parry or death! I can play Dewmans Must Die mode in PSO2!

[gigawuts]

So, sorta like shifting those unique perks into a 3rd class choice is what you're getting at?

Exactly.

The result is less permanence, and more room for design based on potential class combinations.

[UnLucky]

This is something I've wanted tied to HU, but thinking on it it's actually a better fit for FI. FI does need something, and PA PP Revival isn't a bad addition. There would need to be a few more chargeable PAs added though, particularly for daggers. Either that or it's Attack PP Revival, recovering PP during attack animations instead (ely+sazan makes a comeback?).
So long as PP Slayer is a thing, PA Charge PP Revival would be one of the worst things to happen to Fighter.

Even gaining less than 1PP could mean Vol+2xSlide End does less damage from a full bar. Or you'd need frame perfect timing so you don't accidentally gain too much. It would further diminish the value of PP affixes for Fighters, yet any other class would still want as much as possible.

Attack PP Revival would mean you'll lose the bonus halfway through a PA.

On any other class it would be nothing but a boon (unless you own a 12* katana) and it would do wonders for PAs that take too long to be useful. And it's something I've wanted from the start.

[gigawuts]

So long as PP Slayer is a thing, PA Charge PP Revival would be one of the worst things to happen to Fighter.

Even gaining less than 1PP could mean Vol+2xSlide End does less damage from a full bar. Or you'd need frame perfect timing so you don't accidentally gain too much. It would further diminish the value of PP affixes for Fighters, yet any other class would still want as much as possible.

Attack PP Revival would mean you'll lose the bonus halfway through a PA.

On any other class it would be nothing but a boon (unless you own a 12* katana) and it would do wonders for PAs that take too long to be useful. And it's something I've wanted from the start.

Ah yeah that's a good point...clearly the solution is to tie it to an active skill. Then it would be fine for fighter!

But really I think PP Revival should just be removed and replaced with something else. I find it to be pretty redundant most of the time.

[TaigaUC]

I don't like race-based stats in games. I like to keep appearance separate from stats.
I'm also not a fan of races that only have very slight physical differences.
I particularly dislike games that use "race" to define height, proportion, age, etc. Feels lazy.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

So long as PP Slayer is a thing, PA Charge PP Revival would be one of the worst things to happen to Fighter.

Even gaining less than 1PP could mean Vol+2xSlide End does less damage from a full bar. Or you'd need frame perfect timing so you don't accidentally gain too much. It would further diminish the value of PP affixes for Fighters, yet any other class would still want as much as possible.

Attack PP Revival would mean you'll lose the bonus halfway through a PA.

On any other class it would be nothing but a boon (unless you own a 12* katana) and it would do wonders for PAs that take too long to be useful. And it's something I've wanted from the start.

And here I thought I was the only one crazy enough to try to maintain exactly either 120 or 150PP.

[Kondibon]

I don't really think big racial differences would be a good idea. I do however like Giga's idea of some sort of 3rd skill tree that isn't tied to any class that you can use for extra stuff.


I don't like race-based stats in games. I like to keep appearance separate from stats.
I'm also not a fan of races that only have very slight physical differences.
I particularly dislike games that use "race" to define height, proportion, age, etc. Feels lazy.Sometimes I wonder how you can even stand to play the game.

[Walkure]

Most of you all have a large amount of time and money spent on your current characters. Inventory expansions, mags, skill trees, class levels, what have you. Especially if you're using the class change system to have a single character as a main with everything leveled/built around it, with other characters having some specializations or niche uses. Implementing race-based passives/actives now could potentially make all that much less useful if different race/class combos shine well above your current setups.

Who actually wants that? I'm honestly fine with that race differences being minimal outside of aesthetics like it is now.

Some thought experiment for people who want to see some differences between races as of now:

Here's a bunch of samples between minimum and maximum damage from some fire-specced FO/TE builds. This is including a bunch of base attack boosts like Shifta + Shifta Drink, with Attack Up from the Photon Tree. Have a look for yourself and try to see what's what and whether the difference is worth caring about.

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/TF7otCy.png[/spoiler-box]


Noticeable? Kinda; you can probably find out how it's organized and maybe even find which race is what.




And here I thought I was the only one crazy enough to try to maintain exactly either 120 or 150PP.
I affixed for four backhand smashes a while ago.

It was a terrible mistake ・゜・(ノД`)

[ShinMaruku]

Cast were once human, like Lisa's case.

You must tell me more. :E

[Dycize]

On the Lisa topic :
[spoiler-box]Long story shot, an event tablet has her mention the story of a girl with great photon compatibility, but she had a weak body and thus was unable to fight, so they put her in a cast body. Yes, Lisa used to be a frail and weak little girl. Now she's a happy murder-machine. The forced conversion probably didn't go over very well.[/spoiler-box]

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Most of you all have a large amount of time and money spent on your current characters. Inventory expansions, mags, skill trees, class levels, what have you. Especially if you're using the class change system to have a single character as a main with everything leveled/built around it, with other characters having some specializations or niche uses. Implementing race-based passives/actives now could potentially make all that much less useful if different race/class combos shine well above your current setups.

Only if SEGA manages to screws up and give one race something that contributes too much to speed killing/TA times over other races.


Who actually wants that? I'm honestly fine with that race differences being minimal outside of aesthetics like it is now.

You may be okay with it, and that's fine. I'd just like the times of being a newearl hunter meaning more than just being statistacally the worst Hu back.



I affixed for four backhand smashes a while ago.

It was a terrible mistake ・゜・(ノД`)

Difference is, they nerfed the hell out of the damage while it continues to cost 50% more PP than most PAs on average :/

[Kondibon]

Man, you think the Hunewerl thing is bad. Try being a Focast...

I honestly feel like the splitting of damage and defense types is the main thing that's causing this problem. Especially the split between physical (striking and range) damage and tech damage.

If weapon latents weren't tied to grinding, I would suggest the idea of weapons that use a different source stat for their damage. Like switch strike but only for that specific weapon. As well as better boost for non-teching main classes with Fo and Te and better boosts for non-ranged classes on gunner and ranger. Hell tie it to weapon crafting, give us a reason to actually bother with it, damage variance isn't the only problem with the system.

This would help make hybrids more viable, as well as give races that don't specialize in the stat normally used by the weapon type a way to use it with their better stats.

The only problem I can see coming from this is all that rng that sega loves so much ruining it. :/

EDIT: Also we need things that deal tech damage without actually coming from techs, and multipliers for tech damage that aren't only for techs.

[gigawuts]

Honesly, Cast t-def is probably one of the worst design decisions in all of PSO2.

[Maenara]

How about this as a simpler idea?

Humans get 10 additional SP to spend on Hunter and Fighter trees, and 5 SP for Braver and Bouncer trees.
Casts get 10 additional SP to spend on Ranger and Gunner trees, and 5 SP for Braver and the eventual ranged-tech hybrid class trees.
Newmen get 10 extra SP for Force and Techer trees, and 5 SP for Bouncer and the eventual ranged-tech hybrid class trees.
Deumen get 3 extra SP for Hunter, Fighter, Ranger, Gunner, Force, and Techer, and 4 SP to Braver, Bouncer, and the eventual ranged-tech hybrid class trees.

Obviously these numbers and associated races/classes could probably use tweaking, just shooting in the dark here.

[gigawuts]

Let's not pigeonhole races into classes, please.

What's funny is in PSO1 HUcasts were the hunters, and RAmars had the highest ATA in the game (discounting casts equipping S-Parts for the +15 ata, which was resolved in PSOBB). They only decided humans should be the hunter race in PSU when they decided there shouldn't be anything more unique than stat bonuses going on.

As it is, the racial differences are fine. Something exists, but it's not typically significant enough to warrant picking one race over another (except lolnewman).

If any changes are made they should not be tied to a decision some of us made over two full years ago.

[Kilich]

Eh, lets put stats and such aside and focus on important pso2 things, like cosmetics.

I think the concepts behind default clothing should be continued. Humans with armor like clothing, newmen with clothing that accentuates how hipster the males are and how newearls like clothing that doesn't hinder movement. Maybe give them some LAs as well.

Can throw a few more tatoos for Dewmen and clothing with glowy lines that match the tattoos.

And as for casts, their accessories will have unique secondary animations. Like shoulder beam cannons animation replacing animations of PAs like Concentrate One, or missile pods replacing Homing Emission. Can even replace block animation with shoulder shield accessory one and such.

[Kondibon]

Eh, lets put stats and such aside and focus on important pso2 things, like cosmetics.But stats are what the thread is about...



I think the concepts behind default clothing should be continued. Humans with armor like clothing, newmen with clothing that accentuates how hipster the males are and how newearls like clothing that doesn't hinder movement. Maybe give them some LAs as well. I already take issue with a lot of outfits coming out that I want for Milla but are Fleshy only, I'd only agree with this if the races had physical poperties that made certain outfits outright incompatible with other races, and these outfits weren't only from the scratches.


And as for casts, their accessories will have unique secondary animations. Like shoulder beam cannons animation replacing animations of PAs like Concentrate One, or missile pods replacing Homing Emission. Can even replace block animation with shoulder shield accessory one and such.
I like the idea of different animations in general, but I'd rather it just be an extra part of customization (like how casts can choose to hover or not).

[Gama]

hm...

basing off pso, and my head.

Humans
Ability to cast any tech, but only support techs can be charged.
Running speed is higher then any other race.
When Classes of different damage types are combined, 10% boost in both damage types.
Recovers 5% hp when using just reversal.
Has a invincibility window boost when dodging.

Newmans
Highest T atk with decent S and R atk. highest T def and Worst S def
Can cast any tech, can charge any tech,has faster passive pp regen
Resta grants hp regen
Anti grants immunity to status effects for a limited time.
When FO/TE/BO additional 20% T atk bonus.
When hp is under 10% the mirage escape turns into a blink type escape, with a cool down.

Cast
High S atk and highest R atk value, and the highest S and R Def of all races. worst T atk and T def.
Immune to poison, can see traps, can lay any trap, has passive hp regen
Can Cast shifta and deband uncharged.
When RA/GU/BR 20% R atk increase
When using rifle's casts hover at full speed when firing normal attacks, or trowing traps "like a certain boss"

Dewman
Highest S Atk with high R atk
Attack speed is faster then any other Race, has a really high chance to evade atacks "remember hucaseal's evasion"
any weapon gear charges faster, cooldowns get a % decreasse overall.
When HU/FI/BR/BO 20% S ATK increase

sorry if the numbers are off, its just an idea.

would be neat having racial differences that gave more dept to the game play.

[Kondibon]

hm...

basing off pso, and my head.

Humans
Ability to cast any tech, but only support techs can be charged.
Running speed is higher then any other race.
When Classes of different damage types are combined, 10% boost in both damage types.
Recovers 5% hp when using just reversal.
Has a invincibility window boost when dodging.

Newmans
Highest T atk with decent S and R atk. highest T def and Worst S def
Can cast any tech, can charge any tech,has faster passive pp regen
Resta grants hp regen
Anti grants immunity to status effects for a limited time.
When FO/TE/BO additional 20% T atk bonus.
When hp is under 10% the mirage escape turns into a blink type escape, with a cool down.

Cast
High S atk and highest R atk value, and the highest S and R Def of all races. worst T atk and T def.
Immune to poison, can see traps, can lay any trap, has passive hp regen
Can Cast shifta and deband uncharged.
When RA/GU/BR 20% R atk increase
When using rifle's casts hover at full speed when firing normal attacks, or trowing traps "like a certain boss"

Dewman
Highest S Atk with high R atk
Attack speed is faster then any other Race, has a really high chance to evade atacks "remember hucaseal's evasion"
any weapon gear charges faster, cooldowns get a % decreasse overall.
When HU/FI/BR/BO 20% S ATK increase

sorry if the numbers are off, its just an idea.

would be neat having racial differences that gave more dept to the game play.A lot of these would make the problems Maninbluejumpsuit is having even worse. He wants differences between playing the same class as different races, not shoehorning the races into specific classes.

[gigawuts]

The problem is, hybrid classes need a high amount of performance or ability normally tied to a dedicated class.

For a HUnewearl as an example, that means powerful techs (level 20), higher than HUmars, as well as the passive PP regen and access to all HU weapons.

HUnewearls had far better tech performance than the HUmar had better ATP, HP, DFP, or ATA. This is because stats approach extremes.

Hybrids perform decently in more situations than dedicated classes excel in. This is why they exist. They're meant to be versatile and decent for soloing where dedicated classes can let another player fill in for them.

Which is part of the problem with doing that in PSO2. Everything multiplies. Any good bonuses for hybrid classes will be even better on dedicated classes. For hybrids to be good, the bonuses need to be restricted or penalized.

The funny part is this is where static stat gains become valuable. The oldschool +x satk fury stance was indeed better for hybrids and poorly geared players - the problem was, we wanted more, and other classes had multipliers which left fury stance in the dust as the game moved on. +200 on top of 600 is +33%, which isn't a small bonus (even more when considering enemy def, which almost kind of matters when you have 600 atk). +200 on top of 1800...not so much.

[Kondibon]

Somethingsomething scaling damage bonuses.

[horseship]

If any changes are made they should not be tied to a decision some of us made over two full years ago.

Unless we get free race change tickets. Then I'd be down for any of these changes.

I really don't see how you can give each race unique and useful abilities without pigeonholing them into certain class combinations though. Anything I can think of would either be more useful to one class than another or be useless in general.

[Achelousaurus]

Male Human : Equipment grinds can go up to +20
Female Human : Weapon latents can go up to lv5
Male Newman : Double PP regen from attacks, base PP is 200
Female Newman : Double passive PP regen, 50% PP cost
Male CAST : Deal and receive half damage, can't use techs, base PP is 50
Female CAST : Is the only race that can be a Ranger
Male Dewman : Deal and receive double damage
Female Dewman : Double attack speed and movement speed

Now we're balancing like Sega!

P.S. Equipment upgraded by humans can be traded if they're not otherwise account bound
This.
Can't wait for ep4.

Also, I was under the impression many of you guys also played PSO1.
Just how the hell are you forgetting the frigging CAST traps?
They were epic in PSO1 and now we got ranger grenades which are also awesome.
Just give them to CAST and throw in traps and throw in a free Tactics Trap or something.


As for Lisa, I guess that was just Lisa, not casts in general.
Casts are synthetic race created by humans.

[oratank]

This.
Male Human : Equipment grinds can go up to +20
Female Human : Weapon latents can go up to lv5

and dudu grinding discount

[Hexxy]

We need some real race bonuses.

Human: +30% Credit Rating
Cast: Bonus Gas Mileage based off 10% of Weight
Newman: +40% Moe Coefficient
Dewman: +35% Costume Fabulousness

[Mega Ultra Chicken]

We need some real race bonuses.

Human: +30% Credit Rating
Cast: Bonus Gas Mileage based off 10% of Weight
Newman: +40% Moe Coefficient
Dewman: +35% Costume Fabulousness

I dunno what the giant muscular Newmen would think of that.

[Kondibon]

We need some real race bonuses.

Human: +30% Credit Rating
Cast: Bonus Gas Mileage based off 10% of Weight
Newman: +40% Moe Coefficient
Dewman: +35% Costume Fabulousness


I dunno what the giant muscular Newmen would think of that.

Moemoe kyun~

[SPOILER-BOX]http://gakidou.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/1242553294036918900.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Unless we get free race change tickets. Then I'd be down for any of these changes.

I really don't see how you can give each race unique and useful abilities without pigeonholing them into certain class combinations though. Anything I can think of would either be more useful to one class than another or be useless in general.

Easily. Racials that effect something every class has/could make use of such as PP regen/access to (support) techs no matter the class on one race, or active skill cooldown reduction on another. Done right, that would actually reduce the idea of 'X race, Y gender, should be Z class' (and yes, there are people out there who play dewmans now just because their atk stats are higher on average) when every race could bring something to every class.

You could have newman Fo that regen slightly more PP, or dewman Fo that can use photon flare slightly more often for example. Or you could Br newman with lower atk that can use (support) techs, compared to Br deuman with high atk and can use katana combat slightly more often.

As it was said, flat out atk bonuses for racials (or out of combat movement speed) would just intensify the current situation due to the meta being tons of damage and going fast.

PS: passive PP regen while charging PAs would screw the people who build around PP slayer/black heart currently xD

[gigawuts]

Oh, I know. One example of the three things I said all at once - static bonus for hybrid builds,

Each race should get +x atk to certain secondary class stats.

Hunter's atk values, in order, are striking, ranged, and tech. Casts would get striking & ranged when applicable, so a cast with hunter subbed/mained would get a RATK bonus (maybe +300-400?). Casts with ranger subbed/mained would get the same bonus to SATK. A FI/HU cast would only get RATK. A newearl FI/HU would get tatk. A newearl TE/FI would get tatk and satk.

But certain multipliers would need a nerf, and enemies would need significantly higher droprates plus significantly higher survivability. This would primarily boost hybrid combos.

[Kondibon]

Honestly now that I think about it, just adding different base PP amounts and different PP regen rates might be enough on it's own. The increased base PP was one of the selling points of Newmen in the Portable games. I feel like they're missing something by having the base PP be 100 for every race and class. It would be like if every race and class had the same hp.


Oh, I know. One example of the three things I said all at once - static bonus for hybrid builds,

Each race should get +x atk to certain secondary class stats.

Hunter's atk values, in order, are striking, ranged, and tech. Casts would get striking & ranged when applicable, so a cast with hunter subbed/mained would get a RATK bonus (maybe +300-400?). Casts with ranger subbed/mained would get the same bonus to SATK. A FI/HU cast would only get RATK. A newearl FI/HU would get tatk. A newearl TE/FI would get tatk and satk.

But certain multipliers would need a nerf, and enemies would need significantly higher droprates plus significantly higher survivability. This would primarily boost hybrid combos.I had a similar idea. This one (or something similar) is probably better though.

[gigawuts]

Well, since each class's attacks are of varying effectiveness and varying PP cost, that does differ a bit. I get what you mean though. I have similar sentiments regarding units and PP as the game goes on (Why are there no weapons with bonus HP/PP/Res on the weapon itself, instead of on the affixes or latents?)

[Kondibon]

Well, since each class's attacks are of varying effectiveness and varying PP cost, that does differ a bit. I get what you mean though. I have similar sentiments regarding units and PP as the game goes on (Why are there no weapons with bonus HP/PP/Res on the weapon itself, instead of on the affixes or latents?)

Latents need to not be tied to grinding. I will forgive everything else about them having to be unlocked in the first place if they're no longer tied to grinding.

[I_Am]

Easily. Racials that effect something every class has/could make use of such as PP regen/access to (support) techs no matter the class on one race, or active skill cooldown reduction on another. Done right, that would actually reduce the idea of 'X race, Y gender, should be Z class' (and yes, there are people out there who play dewmans now just because their atk stats are higher on average) when every race could bring something to every class.

You could have newman Fo that regen slightly more PP, or dewman Fo that can use photon flare slightly more often for example. Or you could Br newman with lower atk that can use (support) techs, compared to Br deuman with high atk and can use katana combat slightly more often.

As it was said, flat out atk bonuses for racials (or out of combat movement speed) would just intensify the current situation due to the meta being tons of damage and going fast.

PS: passive PP regen while charging PAs would screw the people who build around PP slayer/black heart currently xD
Could we like make a list of the things that could be modified in game that would benefit every class so that we could create reasonable values?

[Hobu]

I dunno 'bout heated discussions doe, but even if we come up with some srs groundbreaking ideas, SEGA will never implement them.

Now, go buy more costumes for your loli fleshie. Her racial traits demand her to be cute and pointy-eared.

[Xaelouse]

Honestly I see race-exclusive weapons/units becoming a thing more than innate traits.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Could we like make a list of the things that could be modified in game that would benefit every class so that we could create reasonable values?


I dunno 'bout heated discussions doe, but even if we come up with some srs groundbreaking ideas, SEGA will never implement them.

It's the general idea I'd like people to think about. Get too invested, and SEGA would break your heart even more. I'll probably come up with more specific ideas in time.


Now, go buy more costumes for your loli fleshie. Her racial traits demand her to be cute and pointy-eared.

I don't make lolis, and I don't do 'cute'.

[Kondibon]

I don't make lolis, and I don't do 'cute'.
http://i.imgur.com/iNP3X76.png

[Hobu]

If there's one thing that really grinds my gears is that casts can use fucking Photon Arts. They shouldn't be able to use Techs in the first place because nanomachines, son. That stale joke aside, what happened to Casts nowadays waving magical girl wands!?

If that isn't heresy, I don't know what is.

[Kondibon]

If there's one thing that really grinds my gears is that casts can use fucking Photon Arts. They shouldn't be able to use Techs in the first place because nanomachines, son. That stale joke aside, what happened to Casts nowadays waving magical girl wands!?

If that isn't heresy, I don't know what is.My last post was so full of irony you could use it to make steel. I wasn't being serious.

[Stealthcmc1974]

I don't make lolis, and I don't do 'cute'.

If only more people followed your example...

[gigawuts]

Latents need to not be tied to grinding. I will forgive everything else about them having to be unlocked in the first place if they're no longer tied to grinding.

Weapons need more than 1 latent. Every weapon should have 2 latents, minimum. While I'm normally against damage latents, I'd really be in favor of it if weapons started having 2+ latents.

A weapon could have 1 damage latent & 1 defensive latent (Dragonkin Damage & Dragonkin Resist). Another could have 1 PA latent & another PA latent (Assault Buster & Slide Shaker). Another could have a damage latent & 2 utility latents (Machine Damage & PP Restorate + Attack PP Restorate). Another could have 2 damage latents (Dragonkin & Machines).

The double PA latent would make a pretty decent stand-in budget weapon for people who only use those two PAs. Double racial damage, again - great stand-in.

This way Guld Millas can get an Infinity Fire latent and Celestial Bullet at the same time. Everybody wins!

[Zorua]

If there's one thing that really grinds my gears is that casts can use fucking Photon Arts. They shouldn't be able to use Techs in the first place because nanomachines, son. That stale joke aside, what happened to Casts nowadays waving magical girl wands!?

If that isn't heresy, I don't know what is.

Are you saying you don't want flamboyant mechas waving around sticks while sparkling!? I'd say you're the heretic!

[Hobu]

Goddamnit. I don't know what's heresy anymore @_@;

[Kondibon]

Goddamnit. I don't know what's heresy anymore @_@;
Everything. Everything is heresy.


Weapons need more than 1 latent. Every weapon should have 2 latents, minimum. While I'm normally against damage latents, I'd really be in favor of it if weapons started having 2+ latents.

A weapon could have 1 damage latent & 1 defensive latent (Dragonkin Damage & Dragonkin Resist). Another could have 1 PA latent & another PA latent (Assault Buster & Slide Shaker). Another could have a damage latent & 2 utility latents (Machine Damage & PP Restorate + Attack PP Restorate). Another could have 2 damage latents (Dragonkin & Machines).

The double PA latent would make a pretty decent stand-in budget weapon for people who only use those two PAs. Double racial damage, again - great stand-in.

This way Guld Millas can get an Infinity Fire latent and Celestial Bullet at the same time. Everybody wins!
I really would like all the latents to be cool unique stuff instead of "This makes you do more damage with X against Y!". Stuff like that ice tech charge speed latent. Otherwise people are just gonna keep going for the damage latents outside of gimmick builds anyway.

[ShinMaruku]

I dunno what the giant muscular Newmen would think of that.

The game retcons them to moe. Part of the racial bonus is they can't be buff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWqYrLy0Wc

[yoshiblue]

Everything. Everything is heresy.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

[ShinMaruku]

Do the impossible break the unbreakable.

[Kondibon]

Don't lose your way.

[Sacrificial]

If it's here, you won't find it there.

[I_Am]

Update it, and they will come?

[Hexxy]

What about interracial mixing? Newcast, Dewcast, Castman, Newmanmandew, NewDewDoTheDew, Lilicast (nope.avi) . I mean, it's AD238, come on people.

[ShinMaruku]

They are already mixes. Dewman and newmans are just modified humans. One by being near darkers others dilberate

[Xelor]

I'd like to keep the race bonuses minimal for each class simply because it would somewhat negate why we can change to any class for any race.

I mean, I'm fine when a game doesn't let me change classes, and most RPGs are already like that. But when a game implements a feature, don't add in something that makes the feature less meaningful.

A good example would be comparing Castlevania 1 to 3 (Egoraptor's example, I don't care if you love hiim or hate him, he's got good points).

In Castlevania 1, you had a whip that only went in front of you, and you can pick up secondary items that provided more utility to your character in some way, like being able to throw axes up or holy water down (where your whip can't hit).

In Castlevania 3, you had a whip that could go ANYWHERE. Even diagonal. There was absolutely no point to using the secondary items, but the items were still there anyways. That's messy design.

In PSO2, having the ability to switch classes but pigeonholing a race into what class is suppose to be meant for them is bad design. Sure you got choices now, but it's a bad decision from a gameplay perspective because it offers false freedom. The option is there, but why the crap would you do it to sacrifice your effectiveness? Course this depends on how significant the racial bonuses are. Basically the only reasons why you'd do it, is because "you can" or the game is too easy for you and this only makes the game more interesting (how is doing less damage with the exact same gear, skills, and class more interesting, I'll personally never understand, don't bother explaining. I'd only understand if the game's already too easy though).

The way how PSO2 has it now, is completely negligible. The stat impacts are minimal, and are only there for people obsessed with min/maxing. And that's how it should be. If you add significant racial bonuses AT THIS POINT, you'd be doing a lot of people a disservice. People are then forced to buy character slots (or make new accounts, but there goes your ability to share items between all of them) because each race can do a certain class better, where before they'd only have to use ONE character for all classes efficiently enough. The only other reason you'd get another character RIGHT NOW is for the aesthetic differences.

Course, the problem could easily be addressed F2P-wise if we had more character slots for free. But then all those people that spent the time getting each class up to 70 with that one character now feels silly for them.

I understand though this is all hypothetical talk and it's all up to Sega of Japan to decide this. But know that this will most likely never happen in PSO2, even with some the changes we got so far.

[untrustful]

Cast were once human, like Lisa's case.

EXPLAIN

[untrustful]

Oh right. Now that I think about it. SEGA left that race tab on weapons for a reason right? We haven't got race specific weapons yet, but that race tab is there looking at us...waiting....

[Jaqlou Swig KING]

They forgot about it.

[gigawuts]

I think they might have planned to use it, but decided not to when they shifted towards race being mostly cosmetic.

And thank god for that.

But hey, maybe it'll see use with 13*s. Or better yet - the next level of crafting! Crafted items have the rare weapon minimum damage bonus, but can only be equipped to non-humans with great success! :wacko:

[I_Am]

I think they might have planned to use it, but decided not to when they shifted towards race being mostly cosmetic.

And thank god for that.

But hey, maybe it'll see use with 13*s. Or better yet - the next level of crafting! Crafted items have the rare weapon minimum damage bonus, but can only be equipped to non-humans with great success! :wacko:
lol all I can think of is those dumb throwback weps in PSU that were race specific.

[gigawuts]

lol all I can think of is those dumb throwback weps in PSU that were race specific.

PSO1's weapon variety was partially based on race & gender specific weapons.

PSU had PAs, right? Those were all unique to class combinations.

Well, PSO1 was the same way with a lot of its endgame weapons. This rifle was for all females and all rangers, while this launcher was usable by everyone. This partisan was for cast hunters only (HUcast and HUcaseal), and this claw was only for HUnewearls. That sort of stuff.

The specials lended themselves towards the given characters' intended roles.

Ultimately, PSO1's character diversity is what made them their own classes. What made a HUcast a HUcast wasn't its model, but its weapon selection, traps, and stats. That sort of thing is mostly tied to classes now, and should stay there (Even if it means adding a second subclass for traps+survival/support techs/mobility, which I want to see).

[I_Am]

PSU's PAs were level locked like techs in PSO, but if you had the weapon you could use the PA regardless(it would just adjust the tech strength). So PA's were locked but only because of the weapons(like in PSO2). Yeah, there was quite a bit of that in PSO, though I can only think of a couple instances where the discrepancy was too high to get around with some other weapon.

I definitely agree that I don't want to see anything that basically tells players, "Play this like this or be laughed at all day."

[Walkure]

Guys I have a solution to everything. Race stats, crafting, the whole shebang.

We craft and customize ourselves into having the stats of one race, but the appearance of another!!! :wacko:

Or, better yet, using drops from clones (or Persona, humanoids in general), you craft your skill trees with "Soul of Newearl" or "Soul of Deumarl" and those bonuses apply specifically to when you have those trees equipped.


Optimal stats while keeping Aesthetics/characters
No work/AC necessarily wasted; specialized characters have no need to craft
Since Tech users have so many skill trees, they get to craft even more things! They love customization, right? :jpsmile:

It's win:win all around!

[UnLucky]

The HP of a Newman and T-Atk of a Cast unless you use AC scratch items and get great success!

Also they don't tell you, but the drop rate is significantly lower for crafted races.

[Keilyn]

I would actually work with newmans differently....

1) Newmans originally were spellcasting clawgirls. They had proficiencies using one-handed weapons and could cast techs. They were supposed to be front-line scrappers who combined their techs to make up for being physically weaker (and slightly deformed) to humans.

With this in mind, I would do two things......


The first are gender skills...which existed natively in PSO-1

In the original PSO newmans were able to swing daggers faster than other classes. In fact there were animation speeds that were different that had players locked in certain playstyles linked to the class packages.

Male characters had slightly quicker animations with 2-handed weapons.

This is actually interesting because it would mean a male newman would be faster with a rod than a female newman, while a female newman would be quicker with a talis and a wand...to balance out the genders. Males would have less T-ATK, but would have a faster rod to offset the Talis Boost Damage.

In this example Gender can be brought to the front with advantages and disadvantages. There was another game I played where Male characters had a skill to increase adrenaline and damage, while female characters had an evasion skill that saved them. I played female and found that at endgame, a female character with max grinded equipment would kill all enemies with the exact number of hits male characters needed to kill enemies as well.

As far as tech would go...I would do three traits...The players would pick one racial trait to have in their hotbar at a time, taken from the counter. This would symbolize different "types" of newmans, as having one Racial Skill means forcing all newmans to be the same class spec...

Tech Oriented (Photon Burst) - Moderate Cooldown

"For thirty Seconds, Newmans cast techs 25% faster with 25% more range regardless of class. If the newman is not a spellcasting type, the tech level is restricted to level 10. At the end of photon burst, shifta and deband are cast on the player (without deband cut/toughness)"

Melee Oriented (Photon Frenzy) - Moderate Cooldown

"For Thirty Seconds, newmans are able to throw their equipped twin daggers with a 35% proc rate at SE to the inherent element of the weapon. Each attack that hits generates a gear, at the end of Photon Frenzy, all charged gears detonate, causing medium-sized AoE Damage."

This one I came up with because of things I miss from all the other phantasy star games.

Range Orientation (Photon Chain) - Long Cooldown

"Newmans gain a gear, allowing accumulation based on number of hits. Each subsequent attack through the use of the gear adds 10% of T-ATK and S-ATK to the newmans R-ATK to the weapon itself. At the end of the Photon Chain, a final attack accumulates with all gears remaining. If the attack hits, the cooldown of this skill is cut in half."

I intentionally added this so that it can be used during bosses and large skirmishes. If players destroy everything and there is nothing to hit, then the longer cooldown applies.

2) I actually would redesign trees altogether to have two kinds of trees...

I would actually have one overall tree that is based on the style of the player itself. Is your playstyle more Tech oriented, more Ranged, or More Melee? This will open the door for hybrids, They would connect to the class trees...

You might wonder...A third tree?

What I would do is take away all of those blasted attribute adjusters and put them on another tree and have each class tree focus on class abilities and class skills, while native abilities that are found to be natural to the playstyle would be found in the main tree.

I got this idea because the original PSO was perfect...

You were a HUNTER, a RANGER, or a FORCE....and those were the three major classes of the game, but then there was Gender and Race tied together.

We can then say "In PSO-2 there was hunters, rangers and forces in terms of mindset and style of playing.....and then there are types that go along with them (like PSU) and then by players spending points in an overall tree that outlines how close they are to Hunter, Ranger, or Force, as well as the class trees...one can choose to either be as wide or as specialized as possible within the classes.

In short, if I want to be a Pure Tech...I would go extremely deep in the FORCE tree (as my main type), and then I say "but I want to be closer to acrotechers or acrofighters, so I would slightly go into hunters and range, and while I spend most of my points on Techniques, I still have availability of some class-based abilities because I spent in those classes....to customize to be Tech-Dominant, and Melee/Ranged Balanced, but subdominant..

...While another acro-type player can say "you know what? I want just enough techs to help with Status Conditions, and some more attack speed....So I can put less towards Force, more towards the other two, some towards the types to really dig deep into them, and then I can be the same type but my RESTA is good enough for me, and the passer by who needs it"

We can then have two players who look the same, but under the same class play completely different...

Of course this would require a lot of testing, but I like something that allows me to be as flexible or specialized.

I loved how at the end of PSU Wartecher was truly amazing, and was everything I wanted....newmans went back to being Rampaging clad Clawgirls with a tech....for attitude.

...and yes...by newmans I mean going back to the days of Nei and Fal (Rika) :P

Clawgirls FTW. :P

3) For other races...

Humans have always represented adaptability and balance. I would give them balanced stats and more customization abilities....to make up for not being "good at one" but "average at everything"

Casts are special....

I would give them what phantasy star IV had...
You found PARTS and gave casts different abiltiies. As a cast levels they would gain up to 24 points. These points represent how many internal slots they have to equip special abilities that are passive, or activated (like mechas)

Then casts could equip things like "Trap detection, Speed Up 1, Trimate generation, etc...." in their slots, including different photon blasts and special attacks....

...However I will return the weaknesses to casts in terms of Low TECH ability (or MST 0) and have their slots make up for lack of techs....and return the weakness of Shock/Lightning to them. In place though they would have high and independent internal customization.

It pisses me off how Mags have slots for abilities...

As far as Dewmans go, I have not played one and know about them too little to make any intelligent post. I really wish the beast girls from PSU would return. However I can only imagine if SEGA makes a PSU-2, I would pick up that game if it had the beast race again.

[Walkure]

Also forgot to reply to Maninbluejumpsuit earlier:

Only if SEGA manages to screws up and give one race something that contributes too much to speed killing/TA times over other races.

You may be okay with it, and that's fine. I'd just like the times of being a newearl hunter meaning more than just being statistacally the worst Hu back.

Difference is, they nerfed the hell out of the damage while it continues to cost 50% more PP than most PAs on average :/I'd think that'd be a near-certainty if they give damage/PP-related bonuses to Deumans and Newmans, respectively. I knew what I was getting into with character creation, and I really don't mind an attack loss that's less than damage variance on endgame weapons on SATK classes, compared to a race/sex combo that came out like a year after I first made a character.


The HP of a Newman and T-Atk of a Cast unless you use AC scratch items and get great success!

Also they don't tell you, but the drop rate is significantly lower for crafted races.Rather just have it randomize race/gender for the RNG element. Gotta keep it simple.


Of course this would require a lot of testing...(;° ロ°)

[Selphea]

Rather than adding a another skill tree imo they could just merge all the skill trees into a huge dress sphere/Path of Exile skill map.

Everyone gets the basic hub skill - Gunslash Gear, located right smack in the middle and connected to every class fighting style, and the two points in the most basic skills, located next to Gunslash Gear, that reflect their stat synergy, game lore and promo material, e.g.:

Rod Gear and Twin Dagger Gear for Newmans
Rifle Gear and Partisan Gear for Casts
Bullet Bow Gear and Jet Boots Gear for Dewmans
Twin Machine Gun Gear and Wand Gear for Humans.

Popping a skill reset gives you back the two pre-assigned points and you are given a free, character-bound skill reset and 3SP with the first SP mission at level 30 so people can't complain about wasted points.

That way, Casts start off closer to trap detection, Newmans start off closer to PP Revival, Dewmans get the flashy newfangled weapons that work well with their high attack across the board, Humans get the leftovers and everyone is happy 8)

[gigawuts]

Rather just have it randomize race/gender for the RNG element. Gotta keep it simple.

No, no, the servers can handle random just fine. It's chairs that are the problem. Chairs. We can't have chairs for stats.

[Walkure]

Speak for yourself!
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/g3hDLJF.png

Jokes aside, crafting individual stats only tangentially fixes race/sex choice issues, and allows for more stat creep. Setting to the stats of another race/sex combo just standardizes already-available stats[/spoiler-box]

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

and I really don't mind an attack loss that's less than damage variance on endgame weapons on SATK classes

The worst crimes in stat differences imo isn't even the atk. Since we stack that stat on mags, and our weapons of choice come with it anyway, it does become negligible.

Base HP differences on the other hand could really mean the difference between dying in a double hit from full, or being clawed by predicada and asking for seconds. Fixing that could cost you affixes that coulda've been more atk when just units don't cut it.

Now that I think about it, players not only lose out on base S/R atk being newman, but if they want to not die in two hits, they'll have to trade attack from affixes for HP.

Though you can forego the HP for pure attack, and not be in anywhere near as much risk if you stick to casting techs from a mile away... subtle implied shoehorning by SEGA ladies and gentlemen! :-P

[UnLucky]

Yeah at least FOcast gets HP and defense, HUnewearl gets jack

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Yeah at least FOcast gets HP and defense, HUnewearl gets jack

Yeah... which is why I'm honestly a little salty about this major step back from Hunewearl of PSO1; even FOcast still has something to show for having unfavorable tech stats. Not melee newearl.

So you see why I'd like to see a few racial traits make a sort of comeback so even the statistically worst race/gender/class combos can say 'at least I have X'.

[yoshiblue]

Suddenly Ultimate introduces the evasion stat. Dodging is disabled.

[Walkure]

Suddenly Ultimate introduces the evasion stat. Dodging is disabled.And it is based on DEX... which newearl has the lowest of all races.

...Shit!



Now that I think about it, players not only lose out on base S/R atk being newman, but if they want to not die in two hits, they'll have to trade attack from affixes for HP.
Use Limit Break; now you don't have to worry about the second hit! ･ω･b

[wefwq]

Suddenly Ultimate introduces the evasion stat. Dodging is disabled.
RIP in peace

[Achelousaurus]

Easily. Racials that effect something every class has/could make use of such as PP regen/access to (support) techs no matter the class on one race, or active skill cooldown reduction on another. Done right, that would actually reduce the idea of 'X race, Y gender, should be Z class' (and yes, there are people out there who play dewmans now just because their atk stats are higher on average) when every race could bring something to every class.

You could have newman Fo that regen slightly more PP, or dewman Fo that can use photon flare slightly more often for example. Or you could Br newman with lower atk that can use (support) techs, compared to Br deuman with high atk and can use katana combat slightly more often.

As it was said, flat out atk bonuses for racials (or out of combat movement speed) would just intensify the current situation due to the meta being tons of damage and going fast.

PS: passive PP regen while charging PAs would screw the people who build around PP slayer/black heart currently xD
Yeah and give a bonus for using a class that is good at it anyway.
I.e. if Newmans can use techs with any class, they get a pp reduction / dmg boost if they use a class that can use techs anyway.
Casts using ranger get half cd for grenades and double damage or something.


Honestly I see race-exclusive weapons/units becoming a thing more than innate traits.
*shrug*
PSO1 had a lot of unique weapons that behaved differently than other of the same type, could be equipped by only a specific race/class/gender, etc..
It is one of the things I like so much about it.


If there's one thing that really grinds my gears is that casts can use fucking Photon Arts. They shouldn't be able to use Techs in the first place because nanomachines, son. That stale joke aside, what happened to Casts nowadays waving magical girl wands!?

If that isn't heresy, I don't know what is.
Oh...those day when FoCast was a hilarious running gag.
Just like Blackill and Goldnum.

PS: only reason Astarion isn't in this topic is cause he is in Las Vegas atm. Though he said he'll only be there for a couple of days and spend a while traveling / staying in small towns with nothing around so I guess he should post here soon.

[Selphea]

If robots can grow Darker pimples I don't see why they can't tech.

Besides, didn't Vol Opt shoot Foie and Gibarta?

[I_Am]

If robots can grow Darker pimples I don't see why they can't tech.

Besides, didn't Vol Opt shoot Foie and Gibarta?
And Gizonde! Damn ceiling amplifier!

[Selphea]

And Gizonde! Damn ceiling amplifier!

Gizonde is a given! Even Canadines could cast that :O

[I_Am]

I definitely think that the Photon Arts thing was kind of a no brainer. We saw various CASTs in PSO react to photon, and so we know that it's possible, and making Techniques a type of Photon Art just pulls it all together as "the manipulation of photon" which gives CASTs carte blanche to use them all too.

[gigawuts]

Gizonde is a given! Even Canadines could cast that :O

I initially misread that as "Canadians" and thought that was actually a fairly reasonable thing to contrast casts against here.

[UnLucky]

Canadians are more well known for their proficiency with ice magic, but lightning techniques are not outside their capabilities.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Gave it more thought.

Not going to beat a dead horse about how newman stats offering nothing/the worst possible option to over half the classes in the game, compared to CAST's HP, S/R atk, or deuman atk in general again.

But I've come to like an even more simple method that even SEGA could realistically implement soon (tm) that has most likely been mentioned already: Different base PP amounts.

Newman: 130 (again, they are the worst option for half the classes in the game otherwise. Being able to use another consecutive PA from a full bar seems fair)

Human: 115? (Well they are the rounded race, i guess putting them in the middle makes sense. 15 extra may be too much though. Not sure)

Deuman: 110 (I wouldn't give them any more than 10 given their ATK stats being universally good for every class, but almost as delicate as newman)

CAST: 100 (main reason: because they're CAST. Other reason: again HP is universally good along with high S/R atk)

All other base stats could stay as they are.

I might even attempt to put this idea on my second account's survey.

Thoughts?

edit: i might have beat a dead horse anyway. Ah well.

[Selphea]

Gave it more thought.

Not going to beat a dead horse about how newman stats offering nothing/the worst possible option to over half the classes in the game, compared to CAST's HP, S/R atk, or deuman atk in general again.

But I've come to like an even more simple method that even SEGA could realistically implement soon (tm) that has most likely been mentioned already: Different base PP amounts.

Newman: 130 (again, they are the worst option for half the classes in the game otherwise. Being able to use another consecutive PA from a full bar seems fair)

Human: 115? (Well they are the rounded race, i guess putting them in the middle makes sense. 15 extra may be too much though. Not sure)

Deuman: 110 (I wouldn't give them any more than 10 given their ATK stats being universally good for every class, but almost as delicate as newman)

CAST: 100 (main reason: because they're CAST. Other reason: again HP is universally good along with high S/R atk)

All other base stats could stay as they are.

I might even attempt to put this idea on my second account's survey.

Thoughts?

edit: i might have beat a dead horse anyway. Ah well.

Good idea! Going by current stat allocations where Stam 3 = 50HP, Spirita 3 = 4 PP, since a Newman Hu/Fi is around 90HP behind their Cast counterpart, they should get around 7-8PP in return.

Rounding would take that to 10 which is more than enough to bridge the HP gap by substituting two Spirita IIIs for two Stamina IIIs, with a couple points left over to cover the lower SATK/RATK as well.

After that, Human and Dewman get 5 each.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Good idea! Going by current stat allocations where Stam 3 = 50HP, Spirita 3 = 4 PP, since a Newman Hu/Fi is around 90HP behind their Cast counterpart, they should get around 7-8PP in return.

Rounding would take that to 10 which is more than enough to bridge the HP gap by substituting two Spirita IIIs for two Stamina IIIs, with a couple points left over to cover the lower SATK/RATK as well.

After that, Human and Dewman get 5 each.

I kinda liked my values better xD. Feels more 'iconic', but not sure if that would mean TAers rerolling newearls en masse.

Maybe 15 PP for newman. 5 for human/deuman. Their 20-40 lower s atk, 5-15 lower r atk, and lower dex (ranges anywhere between 4-13) on average could account for the extra 5 pp.

I'm still trying to consider the value of newman's T atk against any other races, though tech-using classes feel like minority. (Hu, Fi, amd variants of Br, Te, and Bo use S atk. Ra, Gu, and a Br variant uses ranged. Fo, Te, and Bo variant uses tech. So it really is just that over half the classes in game can make use of striking attack.)

[gigawuts]

Good idea! Going by current stat allocations where Stam 3 = 50HP, Spirita 3 = 4 PP, since a Newman Hu/Fi is around 90HP behind their Cast counterpart, they should get around 7-8PP in return.

Rounding would take that to 10 which is more than enough to bridge the HP gap by substituting two Spirita IIIs for two Stamina IIIs, with a couple points left over to cover the lower SATK/RATK as well.

After that, Human and Dewman get 5 each.

You guys go on about hp, but seem to be forgetting just how low cast tdef is here.

It's so low that when units are intended for the current level cap, casts can't actually equip units that require tdef on hu, fi, ra, or gu. They're short by something like 6 tdef each time. This is almost definitely by design. For quite a while the only way I could use my melee primula set was as a braver because of the smidgen of a percent higher def stats. The next level cap amended that. Capped ra, hu, fi, and gu casts couldn't use White Tails without tdef on their mag for a long time.

If we're giving newmans pp just because casts have hp, while everyone around here brags about how useless hp is and how offense is the only worthwhile investment, how about we fix the only actually limiting base stat?

[NoiseHERO]

PSU races were cooler.

minus dumans from both.

[Selphea]

You guys go on about hp, but seem to be forgetting just how low cast tdef is here.

It's so low that when units are intended for the current level cap, casts can't actually equip units that require tdef on hu, fi, ra, or gu. They're short by something like 6 tdef each time. This is almost definitely by design. For quite a while the only way I could use my melee primula set was as a braver because of the smidgen of a percent higher def stats. The next level cap amended that.

If we're giving newmans pp just because casts have hp, while everyone around here brags about how useless hp is and how offense is the only worthwhile investment, how about we fix the only actually limiting base stat?

Put some TDef on your mag when the cap gets raised if it bugs you that much. Even with 6 TDef you still have more HP and ATK than a Newman. And Humans even.

[Walkure]

You guys go on about hp, but seem to be forgetting just how low cast tdef is here.

It's so low that when units are intended for the current level cap, casts can't actually equip units that require tdef on hu, fi, ra, or gu. They're short by something like 6 tdef each time. This is almost definitely by design.
Yeah; just enough so that Deumans can equip any units at level cap. Which sucks for Casts since they have lower TDEF than the supposed glass cannon race.

[gigawuts]

Put some TDef on your mag when the cap gets raised if it bugs you that much. Even with 6 TDef you still have more HP and ATK than a Newman. And Humans even.

I expanded my post.

So, to get this straight:

You think that casts should spend money on stats they won't use for long periods of time because of HP they shouldn't be using while newmans become even better at offense (which is the only actually important factor in Farm Enemies Online 2). You mean like the tech mag I have that has 38 tdef on it? The one I made to equip 5* units back before the unit req reduction? That cost real money, and I don't get to redistribute those stats now that I don't need them. Or the striking mag I actually did make with tdef? Again: A second mag I had to buy with real money because of this poor design.

Let's briefly review
http://puu.sh/c3yAa/dcd6f82dd0.png

Female newman might have the lowest base stat by 1%, but they also have the highest base stat by 2%. Sure, that's for just one class, but you notice that low tech on casts when you need it.

Dex was pulled out in the last column because we know it's literally ignored by the damage formula when using rares. On average, stats are distributed pretty damn evenly between casts and newman - there's literally a 1% difference between a newman female and cast female. There's a 2% difference between a cast male and a newman female.

Now, where's the crying from the dewman players? Or is this just more of the same old newearls bitching about how they're not amazing at long range and get to have survivability, like I've been reading in PS forums since 2005 (and it's surely been around since before then)?

Well, guess what: Newearls aren't that great at some things but in exchange are the best possible choice for other things. Cry some more. Casts are survivable for some things, and shafted out of gear unless they pay up real money when not capped (either that or put stats on your mag you won't use the rest of the time, which negates the part of the base satk advantage you have).

edit: That same table adjusted around the actual average
http://puu.sh/c3zhz/2d53849335.png
So casts are basically the inverse of newmans +1%, oh and newearls aren't locked out of gear when capped at any point in time.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Put some TDef on your mag when the cap gets raised if it bugs you that much. Even with 6 TDef you still have more HP and ATK than a Newman. And Humans even.

That never should be the answer (since sega clearly didn't like that).

I still remember when bravers of certain races could not use any XQ sets at cap early in episode 2. Ugh.

As we all know, they dropped the DEF requirement on alot of unit sets.

[Kondibon]

Giga, if you see another issue that needs to be addressed there's no reason not to bring it up, but you don't need to hate on people for missing a few things.

Also, I specifically remember complaining about my Dewman being squishy in team chat, to which you told me it was probably my class or units, because the race difference isn't that big... So I don't see why you're bringing that up...

[gigawuts]

Giga, if you see another issue that needs to be addressed there's no reason not to bring it up, but you don't need to hate on people for missing a few things.

Also, I specifically remember complaining about my Dewman being squishy in team chat, to which you told me it was probably my class or units, because the race difference isn't that big... So I don't see why you're bringing that up...

I'm bringing it up because it doesn't matter...except when it does.

You can be 1 point over the requirement or 200 points over the requirement - doesn't matter, you can equip the item. But if you're below the requirement, again, doesn't matter by how much - you can't.

Casts are the only race that can't equip gear when capped without investing anything other than atk onto their mag.

This is frequently overlooked in these discussions, as it has been here. If people are going to be discussing putting +8 PP onto newearls with a straight face let's rectify the most glaring issue out of all of the base stat issues.

The other stat differences are pretty much all negligible. HP, PP, and being unable to equip gear is the real issue.

IIRC someone asked Bellion why he wasn't using a White Tail in one of his videos, and his response was "Casts can't equip it until they raise the cap." This is such an insignificant problem for other races that most people don't even know it's a thing. Yet, at the same time, people are saying casts have OP base stats because of hp :wacko:

edit: btw, this was at the 65 cap, so it's not like I'm talking about something way back before they reduced unit stat requirements. A 65/65 RA/HU or HU/FI had 417 tdef. White tails, and other units within that bracket, require 420 tdef. So you put 3 tdef on your mag - no big deal. Next update rolls around and we're 70/70, so you're only missing 3 points. Who's to say the next update won't require 5 more tdef? 25? Do you buy a new mag for each update? Do you leave stats off your mag, waiting for the next update?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Yet, at the same time, people are saying casts have OP base stats because of hp :wacko:

Dunno who these people are, but it isn't me.


edit: btw, this was at the 65 cap, so it's not like I'm talking about something way back before they reduced unit stat requirements. A 65/65 RA/HU or HU/FI had 417 tdef. White tails, and other units within that bracket, require 420 tdef.

Wouldn't that make the rant irrelevant until SEGA releases another BIS unit/set with high requirements?

[Hobu]

Let's briefly review
http://puu.sh/c3yAa/dcd6f82dd0.png



Now, where's the crying from the dewman players? Or is this just more of the same old newearls bitching about how they're not amazing at long range and get to have survivability, like I've been reading in PS forums since 2005 (and it's surely been around since before then)?



edit: That same table adjusted around the actual average
http://puu.sh/c3zhz/2d53849335.png
So casts are basically the inverse of newmans +1%, oh and newearls aren't locked out of gear when capped at any point in time.

Dewman player here and nope, no delicious tears from me. I like my characters strong and squishy, like a razor blade pancake.

[Xaeris]

At our current cap, is there any equipment that a cast's T-Def would prevent them from using?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

oh and newearls aren't locked out of gear when capped at any point in time.

There was the Fen set way back before episode 2 (lvl 55 cap iirc) that required newearls (and probably everyone else) to invest in S def to use it.

Again, XQ unit sets were unusable for bravers at cap for most races/genders (some needed 16 extra s def. Others needed only 1)

Newearls were subject to gear lockouts until mag investment/cap/stat req reduction too.


At our current cap, is there any equipment that a cast's T-Def would prevent them from using?

None that I'm aware of. CASTs can use white tail without mag help right now. Saiki needs dex (which CASTs have the most of). They can even use media set.

Best units in game require 420 of a stat, except for the 430 dex of saiki, and 400 of any Def stat of XQ units.

So yeah... any unit/set worth using, they don't need a mag for right now.

[gigawuts]

Dunno who these people are, but it isn't me.



Wouldn't that make the rant irrelevant until SEGA releases another BIS unit/set with high requirements?

Yes.

What, do you actually think that isn't going to happen?

It's relevant by design of the game itself. This game is all about making people optimize in one direction, then shifting the pendulum to the other side so they've maxed out something that is pretty mediocre now. In some cases that even means being unable to equip something at all.

We're talking about a company that released the psycho wand with 700 tatk requirement at...what was it, the 45 cap? 50? We ran the numbers back then and casts were literally incapable of equipping the psycho wand, even with maxed tatk ups on force and techer combined. Do you actually think they'll never pull something like that again?

A cast couldn't even equip tech units at the cap without putting 38+ tdef onto their mag. I have a mag like that because of that.

Just because they've made a couple concessions while simultaneously releasing new hurdles to jump doesn't mean they won't go back and erect old hurdles again. Lots of people are nice and comfortable with their 175 atk mags, and Sega's running a business here. People who only have one mag, or one mag per class, could very easily be cornered into buying more mags with higher def reqs on units.

Sega's running a F2P game built around frustrating the player until they yield and buy a less frustrating path. Grinding, scratches, scape dolls, the whole damn game. Some paths are less frustrating than others, but it's the entire point. Do you think Sega hates money? It's an option they've taken before and you can be sure they'll take it again.

Dewman player here and nope, no delicious tears from me. I like my characters strong and squishy, like a razor blade pancake.

Exactly - because your gear options are all the same, and you're not forced to make investments that you can't undo later.

There was the Fen set way back before episode 2 (lvl 55 cap iirc) that required newearls (and probably everyone else) to invest in S def to use it.

Again, XQ unit sets were unusable for bravers at cap for most races/genders.

Newearls were subject to gear lockouts until mag investment/cap/stat req reduction too.



None that I'm aware of. CASTs can use white tail without mag help right now.

My mistake.

I guess since they fixed everyone but casts being unable to equip gear scaled for the current endgame, everyone but casts should get extra base PP (which is a terrible idea in the first place IMO, but hey).

edit:

At our current cap, is there any equipment that a cast's T-Def would prevent them from using?

Probably just a few terrible weapons that require tdef. The pink falz pyrox weapons never had their stats reduced with the units, and they originally matched certain unit stat reqs.

It's a pattern that's held all along however, and I have no reason to believe they'll break from it at the next wave of items to come with a level cap raise.

[Walkure]

Now, where's the crying from the dewman players? Or is this just more of the same old newearls bitching about how they're not amazing at long range and get to have survivability, like I've been reading in PS forums since 2005 (and it's surely been around since before then)?
...
So casts are basically the inverse of newmans +1%, oh and newearls aren't locked out of gear when capped at any point in time.
Idunno if anything's changed, but it looks like either Deuman has the same S/Rdef as Newearl on the skill simulator for any class combo. So either those values (or the skill simulator's) don't seem to be accurate anymore.

Either way, I don't agree with having DEF be valued at the same amount as ATK, unless you're valuing it in equip requirements in which case DEX might as well be thrown in. Whenever they implement something DEX-based with similar equipment requirements designed (character is at level cap should be able to equip them) newearls are usually left out in a similar manner. Thankfully, DEX requirement's not very common on good equipment anyways.

Now, there's just that silly Elysion with it's 500 SATK requirement. If you're building around 70-cap then only Deumarl can equip it as FO/TE without investing in SATK, making them technically the best casters with a full TATK mag. Hopefully that requirement is irrelevant in one way or another come 80-cap.

Unicorn man real master race.

[Selphea]

I expanded my post.

So, to get this straight:

You think that casts should spend money on stats they won't use for long periods of time because of HP they shouldn't be using while newmans become even better at offense (which is the only actually important factor in Farm Enemies Online 2). You mean like the tech mag I have that has 38 tdef on it? The one I made to equip 5* units back before the unit req reduction? That cost real money, and I don't get to redistribute those stats now that I don't need them. Or the striking mag I actually did make with tdef? Again: A second mag I had to buy with real money because of this poor design.

Let's briefly review
http://puu.sh/c3yAa/dcd6f82dd0.png

Female newman might have the lowest base stat by 1%, but they also have the highest base stat by 2%. Sure, that's for just one class, but let's look at what it takes to

Dex was pulled out in the last column because we know it's literally ignored by the damage formula when using rares. On average, stats are distributed pretty damn evenly between casts and newman - there's literally a 1% difference between a newman female and cast female. There's a 2% difference between a cast male and a newman female.

Now, where's the crying from the dewman players? Or is this just more of the same old newearls bitching about how they're not amazing at long range and get to have survivability, like I've been reading in PS forums since 2005 (and it's surely been around since before then)?

Well, guess what: Newearls aren't that great at some things but in exchange are the best possible choice for other things. Cry some more. Casts are survivable for some things, and shafted out of gear unless they pay up real money when not capped (either that or put stats on your mag you won't use the rest of the time, which negates the part of the base satk advantage you have).

Base stats are not a very accurate representation of final performance. Look at the stats contributing to final HP:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Deband Toughness

And that's it, whereas the stats contributing to final TATK:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Shifta
+Weapon
+Mag

So okay, Newmans get the highest TATK - 81 more as a Fo/Te to be exact. But is it easier to get TATK or HP? TATK is the most inflated attack stat in the game due to Tech High Up and Photon Flare. Is 81 TATK when final TATK measures in the 3000s an equitable difference to 90 less HP when final HP frequently measures under 1000 and rarely pushes over 2000?

The funny thing is I don't even play a newearl because I checked the stats of every race beforehand - I picked human... because of the HP without compromising much TATK, and it's paid off so, so, sooo much I'm not even missing that 1% lower final TATK.

My friend made a newman and we both played Jet Boots Bouncer at first. When we duoed there was no meaningful difference in damage but I use a lot more Moons on her than the other way around and many times I wonder why she keeps getting one-shotted when I live through the exact same stuff and have my mag kick in with the default 50% heal.

So honestly, I'm not complaining here but I do see that Newmans really get the short end of the stick.

And yes, the way PSO2 works is if you want an ingame advantage, very often you have to pay for it or find a loophole. That is the nature of F2P with cash shop. I made a levelling build and I save my all skill resets for my final build. I have a lowbie mag and a final mag. Yes it costs real money but I think the issue here is perception - I see it as a perfectly natural part of an F2P game. If I'm spending hundreds of hours a month in the game I think it's only right that I pay the people who keep it running. I don't believe in buying Scape Dolls, but permanent things like inventory expansion, mags and extra skill trees will come in handy many times over the course of play.

Of course, from the player's perspective, it could be poor design, but from the company's perspective, it would only be poor design if no one paid for it. If people buy it and it's profitable, then it's good design.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Idunno if anything's changed, but it looks like either Deuman has the same S/Rdef as Newearl on the skill simulator for any class combo. So either those values (or the skill simulator's) don't seem to be accurate anymore.

Either way, I don't agree with having DEF be valued at the same amount as ATK, unless you're valuing it in equip requirements in which case DEX might as well be thrown in. Whenever they implement something DEX-based with similar equipment requirements designed (character is at level cap should be able to equip them) newearls are usually left out in a similar manner. Thankfully, DEX requirement's not very common on good equipment anyways.

Now, there's just that silly Elysion with it's 500 SATK requirement. If you're building around 70-cap then only Deumarl can equip it as FO/TE without investing in SATK, making them technically the best casters with a full TATK mag. Hopefully that requirement is irrelevant in one way or another come 80-cap.

Unicorn man real master race.

Lol I forgot, newman in general couldn't use elysion without mag help for a while unless they were Te/Hu iirc. Newmans actually still can't unless they toss 7 points into S atk up as Fo/Te. Ironic for the iconic casters.

Also, unless my memory is shit... Te didn't have s atk up in their tree before episode 3, meaning any newman using elysion put points into S atk on the tech mag up til now (unless maybe they were Te/Hu which wasn't popular for a long time).

Welp, I lost my last bit of pity for CASTs.


Base stats are not a very accurate representation of final performance. Look at the stats contributing to final HP:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Deband Toughness

And that's it, whereas the stats contributing to final TATK:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Shifta
+Weapon
+Mag


Thanks for bringing up something I totally forgot to mention; the fact HP and PP are not fed to a player anywhere near as much as atk stats are!

[Kondibon]

And yes, the way PSO2 works is if you want an ingame advantage, very often you have to pay for it or find a loophole. That is the nature of F2P with cash shop. I made a levelling build and I save my all skill resets for my final build.

I have a lowbie mag and a final mag. Yes it costs real money but I think the issue here is perception - I see it as a perfectly natural part of an F2P game. If I'm spending hundreds of hours a month in the game I think it's only right that I pay the people who keep it running. I don't believe in buying Scape Dolls, but permanent things like inventory expansion, mags and extra skill trees will come in handy many times over the course of play.

Of course, from the player's perspective, it could be poor design, but from the company's perspective, it would only be poor design if no one paid for it. If people buy it and it's profitable, then it's good design.One of the biggest problems with what you're saying is that it's entirely possible for the "permanant" thing you bought to become obsolete in PSO2, and that's what Giga was getting at. He pointed out an example with one of his own mags.

I know you're just playing devil's advocate but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0

[Hobu]

As a squishy character player, there's not one damn mission in SH that I didn't die at least once. My parry accuracy is above 90%, but there's a limit to squishy-ness. But that adds the thrill of playing PSO2: Knowing thy character's weaknesses.

And yes, I have 2 mags. Back then I was forced to wear mags that needed to fill in for the Dex requirement of Katanas. And then A few level cap raises later, I stopped ever needing Dex and had a second one built for the sole purpose of S-atk. One option that I cannot undo? That one. Having a 105/75 mag when I can get 40 more S-atk on an S-atk mag.

[Kondibon]

Honestly, Squishyness has nothing to do with this. Giga is just pointing out that Casts are so far behind in t-def (and t-atk I guess) that they've have problems equipping certain endgame gear at several different points in the past. As people have pointed out though, this has been a problem for other races as well. It's not a problem with how the stats are distributed, so much as a problem with how players use mags and skill trees, vs how sega expects players to use mags and skill trees. If everything was balanced to be at LEAST usable by whatever class/race combo has the lowest stat for it at the time it's released then that wouldn't be an issue at all.

[gigawuts]

Idunno if anything's changed, but it looks like either Deuman has the same S/Rdef as Newearl on the skill simulator for any class combo. So either those values (or the skill simulator's) don't seem to be accurate anymore.

Either way, I don't agree with having DEF be valued at the same amount as ATK, unless you're valuing it in equip requirements in which case DEX might as well be thrown in. Whenever they implement something DEX-based with similar equipment requirements designed (character is at level cap should be able to equip them) newearls are usually left out in a similar manner. Thankfully, DEX requirement's not very common on good equipment anyways.

Now, there's just that silly Elysion with it's 500 SATK requirement. If you're building around 70-cap then only Deumarl can equip it as FO/TE without investing in SATK, making them technically the best casters with a full TATK mag. Hopefully that requirement is irrelevant in one way or another come 80-cap.

Unicorn man real master race.

I don't necessarily think it should be valued the same as def, however if units are seemingly intentionally designed around that sweet spot where weaker race/gender/class stat combination is unable to equip it then even if atk isn't in that position now I think it's important to consider it for the future.

The elysion is a good example of that happening now, yeah. It's something that class wouldn't typically invest into, and really shouldn't be expected to if other races aren't and those stats are more or less useless the rest of the time.

That said, a FO/FI, FO/BR, and FO/BO (why?) is able to equip the Elysion just fine with a few points in satk up, which can be reset for free unlike mags. Also FO/HU if you're into that sort of thing. And, of course, techer has an satk up...hu, ra, fi, and gu lack tdef ups.


Base stats are not a very accurate representation of final performance. Look at the stats contributing to final HP:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Deband Toughness

And that's it, whereas the stats contributing to final TATK:

Abilities
Skills
Units
Drink
Shifta
+Weapon
+Mag

So okay, Newmans get the highest TATK - 81 more as a Fo/Te to be exact. But is it easier to get TATK or HP? TATK is the most inflated attack stat in the game due to Tech High Up and Photon Flare. Is 81 TATK when final TATK measures in the 3000s an equitable difference to 90 less HP when final HP frequently measures under 1000 and rarely pushes over 2000?

A more accurate breakdown here would be

Def:
Base
Mag (0 expected)
Skilltree (0 expected post-rework)

ATK:
Base
Mag
Skilltree (0 expected post-rework)

I still get what you're saying, though. I definitely do, and I even agree right now that's how the game is.

Except, like you say here...


Of course, from the player's perspective, it could be poor design, but from the company's perspective, it would only be poor design if no one paid for it. If people buy it and it's profitable, then it's good design.
It's a matter of good business. Sega has money they could make if players minmax their mag to the exact point. I'm absolutely positive weapons will come out that will require maxed atk and possibly skilltree investments again some time in the future. Like with Walkure's example, one exists now that uses a different atk req. A 70/70 RA/GU female caseal has 604 ratk - nothing else breaks 600 (edit: actually dewearls do). Add 190 ratk to that, since the mag cap is going up soon...how long until we get best in slot rifles that require 790 ratk? Yeah, sure, one or two sp in an ratk up is fine, but what about making it require exactly enough satk so that only casts and caseals can equip it? Are we really supposed to have 10 of each def and atk on each mag? Or just buy a new mag every time something like that happens?

The whole gear-or-no-gear stat req thing is a bad idea. HP is problematic, but not that problematic. gitgud etc. (I'm being sarcastic, although it really is the answer...no amount of dodging will give you 3 tdef).


So honestly, I'm not complaining here but I do see that Newmans really get the short end of the stick.
Which brings me to this; See above: Dodging will evade hits, but no amount of dodging will give you 3 tdef.



If I'm spending hundreds of hours a month in the game I think it's only right that I pay the people who keep it running. I don't believe in buying Scape Dolls, but permanent things like inventory expansion, mags and extra skill trees will come in handy many times over the course of play.

I agree, permanent gains are great to spend money on. I have something like 7k hours in PSO2 and I have 50 extra slots on 3 characters, I've bought 6 or so mags, and I frequently have premium.

But three of those mags rarely if ever see use because the reason I bought them is now removed - stat reqs I no longer need or are currently phased out. Let's not be apologists and say that's fine. Good business and good games are not mutually exclusive. While Sega basically has a monopoly on the scifi F2P market in Japan we can expect PSO2 to stay this way, but if they ever get major competition you can bet a whole lot of things will suddenly get some polishing.

[Selphea]

A more accurate breakdown here would be

Def:
Base
Mag (0 expected)
Skilltree (0 expected post-rework)

ATK:
Base
Mag
Skilltree (0 expected post-rework)

That's only true for equip requirements, I specifically stated "final performance".


I still get what you're saying, though. I definitely do, and I even agree right now that's how the game is.

...

It's a matter of good business. Sega has money they could make if players minmax their mag to the exact point. I'm absolutely positive weapons will come out that will require maxed atk and possibly skilltree investments again some time in the future. Like with Walkure's example, one exists now that uses a different atk req. A 70/70 RA/GU female caseal has 604 ratk - nothing else breaks 600 (edit: actually dewearls do). Add 190 ratk to that, since the mag cap is going up soon...how long until we get best in slot rifles that require 790 ratk? Yeah, sure, one or two sp in an ratk up is fine, but what about making it require exactly enough satk so that only casts and caseals can equip it? Are we really supposed to have 10 of each def and atk on each mag? Or just buy a new mag every time something like that happens?

Yes, they seem to be going for the early adopter fee model. The way I see it, they probably don't account for minmaxers, they just design items for whatever sub-optimal build they use in trailers, likely with full S/R/TATK up 1/2/3. And then the minmaxers are the ones that get put in a spot.

I personally measure how far behind I will be if I don't optimize, and if it's not a big hit I'll wait.


The whole gear-or-no-gear stat req thing is a bad idea. HP is problematic, but not that problematic. gitgud etc. (I'm being sarcastic, although it really is the answer...no amount of dodging will give you 3 tdef).

No amount of dodging will save you from a Falz cutscene kill you can't see coming either.


But three of those mags rarely if ever see use because the reason I bought them is now removed - stat reqs I no longer need or are currently phased out. Let's not be apologists and say that's fine. Good business and good games are not mutually exclusive. While Sega basically has a monopoly on the scifi F2P market in Japan we can expect PSO2 to stay this way, but if they ever get major competition you can bet a whole lot of things will suddenly get some polishing.

Well the competition better hurry up and make something good then! :O But honestly in Asia, compared to the likes of Asiasoft, Nexon, NCSoft and Perfect World, Sega is the least among the evils.


One of the biggest problems with what you're saying is that it's entirely possible for the "permanant" thing you bought to become obsolete in PSO2, and that's what Giga was getting at. He pointed out an example with one of his own mags.

I know you're just playing devil's advocate but...

*vids*

Well if you think about it, PSO2 does account for many of the points raised in the vids. Given enough time, a free player will eventually be able to farm up the best gear and buy AC scratch items from player shops, and given enough backpedalling, every character will be able to meet stat requirements. There's no pay wall as much as there is a pay ramp/express lane. The culture in Japan could be very different too - the number of pachislot arcades I saw in Akihabara was just mind-boggling, and Sega operates many of them. What's fun to them could truly be winning something with real money and RNG rather than actual skill. That is something I will never be able to grasp though.

[LonelyGaruga]

My friend made a newman and we both played Jet Boots Bouncer at first. When we duoed there was no meaningful difference in damage but I use a lot more Moons on her than the other way around and many times I wonder why she keeps getting one-shotted when I live through the exact same stuff and have my mag kick in with the default 50% heal.

So honestly, I'm not complaining here but I do see that Newmans really get the short end of the stick.

Popping in to say that, as a female Newman Te/Fi player running around with 530 HP, I get the inverse of the situation you describe, repeatedly reviving other players with twice that (I can tell by looking at their HP bars when healing them). Your friend just isn't good at not dying.

[Hexxy]

I think there's enough whiners that sega probably won't make anything impossible to get/use/equip/etc for any race that doesn't specialize for it. I want to think they would, but I'm just not seeing it, and even if they sneak it into a future update they'll eventually cave and drop reqs.

[gigawuts]

I think there's enough whiners that sega probably won't make anything impossible to get/use/equip/etc for any race that doesn't specialize for it. I want to think they would, but I'm just not seeing it, and even if they sneak it into a future update they'll eventually cave and drop reqs.

This is likely, yes.

The question is: Will they intend to do that all along, or are they really that oblivious?

It's perfectly common for game companies to add something that take real money to use (or use to its full potential), and then nerf it when the free players can get it.

Free to play games are ridden with shit like super OP guns with real money price tags that are nerfed after a month when free players become able to get it, and other similar things. It's expected in some games. Shit, even TF2 did it a few times, and normally that game gets F2P right in my opinion (then again I haven't checked in on it in like...a year).

Is that what's going on here? Are items being released that only paying players can use properly, then when they're no longer endgame are being made more accessible to players who didn't pay up (or didn't happen to have the right mag)?

I'd be more surprised if that wasn't the case than if it was.

[Walkure]

No amount of dodging will save you from a Falz cutscene kill you can't see coming either.
Who cares about cutscene deaths from falz?

If you're leading the party, it's an express lane back to the campship, you already got the EXP anyways

If you're not, you can still pick up whatever by the time that the next quest starts.

[Selphea]

Who cares about cutscene deaths from falz?

If you're leading the party, it's an express lane back to the campship, you already got the EXP anyways

If you're not, you can still pick up whatever by the time that the next quest starts.

You can't swap to Lucky Rise item before the crystal break :(

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Popping in to say that, as a female Newman Te/Fi player running around with 530 HP, I get the inverse of the situation you describe, repeatedly reviving other players with twice that (I can tell by looking at their HP bars when healing them). Your friend just isn't good at not dying.

People get hit by something sooner or later. Including you.

[Kondibon]

This is likely, yes.

The question is: Will they intend to do that all along, or are they really that oblivious?

It's perfectly common for game companies to add something that take real money to use (or use to its full potential), and then nerf it when the free players can get it.

Free to play games are ridden with shit like super OP guns with real money price tags that are nerfed after a month when free players become able to get it, and other similar things. It's expected in some games. Shit, even TF2 did it a few times, and normally that game gets F2P right in my opinion (then again I haven't checked in on it in like...a year).

Is that what's going on here? Are items being released that only paying players can use properly, then when they're no longer endgame are being made more accessible to players who didn't pay up (or didn't happen to have the right mag)?

I'd be more surprised if that wasn't the case than if it was.Weren't we talking about planned obsolescence a while back? Because this is what I was talking about and this is why I don't care about "end game" gear.

[Hobu]

Weren't we talking about planned obsolescence a while back? Because this is what I was talking about and this is why I don't care about "end game" gear.

Yeah, sucks to say my nicely affixed 11 stars would be worthless 2-3 months from now. Hell, we might be seeing mass produced 12 stars soon. Considering the time and effort placed into affixing those items, only to get phased out later...

[Selphea]

Yeah, sucks to say my nicely affixed 11 stars would be worthless 2-3 months from now. Hell, we might be seeing mass produced 12 stars soon. Considering the time and effort placed into affixing those items, only to get phased out later...

They'd need to release potentials like Perfect Apocalypse with 15% effect to Perfect Keeper or Negative Genocide with 20% more damage to Darkers for me to think of budging! :O

[Hexxy]

Is that what's going on here? Are items being released that only paying players can use properly, then when they're no longer endgame are being made more accessible to players who didn't pay up (or didn't happen to have the right mag)?.

It's a scary thought. But the thing about this is that up until now sega has been exceptionally good about their cash shop items. Sure there are some gameplay items we wouldn't have otherwise (any equip related stuff from AC scratch) but none of those things are so amazing and give equips giant advantages over others. And because you can, at the very least, trade most of that stuff it's not a big deal right now since everyone has access to it at least via player shops.

Now if they release an AC item that you must have to unlock Level 4/5 potential that is not tradeable, then we have a problem.


Weren't we talking about planned obsolescence a while back? Because this is what I was talking about and this is why I don't care about "end game" gear.

So long as they put out new content, every gear in the game will eventually be outclassed by something new, so there's really not that much reason not to upgrade. Fortunately for you, this is a game that's more reliant on (some) skill than equips, so you're generally fine with old gear. I mean it really depends about how much you care about TTK and/or survivability.

[LonelyGaruga]

You can't swap to Lucky Rise item before the crystal break :(

You can use a keyboard shortcut to do that.

But seriously, cutscene deaths from Elder? Could you please give a better example for HP being useful? This is like the worst possible example possible. Even avoiding one-shots by Umblla (which is impossible with level cap and decent equipment, as far as I'm aware) is a better argument for HP being useful.


People get hit by something sooner or later. Including you.

Yes, and sometimes I even die. But I die a considerable fraction of the time compared to other people with 4 digit HP. Claiming that Newman are statistically gimped because of their low HP is blatantly wrong. Hell, the HP difference for female Humans and Newmans, assuming a level capped Bo/Hu (biggest HP difference), is merely 66. Selphia's example is pretty blatantly just their friend being new and inexperienced.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Yes, and sometimes I even die. But I die a considerable fraction of the time compared to other people with 4 digit HP. Claiming that Newman are statistically gimped because of their low HP is blatantly wrong. Hell, the HP difference for female Humans and Newmans, assuming a level capped Bo/Hu (biggest HP difference), is merely 66.

HP isn't force-fed to characters as much as atk is. It's a rarer commodity than atk is (which does have a diminishing return in its total contribution to a % damage increase). That's what I've been getting at. Depending on set, it is the difference in taking a double hit (which does happen) and living, or dying.

[Kondibon]

So long as they put out new content, every gear in the game will eventually be outclassed by something new, so there's really not that much reason not to upgrade. Fortunately for you, this is a game that's more reliant on (some) skill than equips, so you're generally fine with old gear. I mean it really depends about how much you care about TTK and/or survivability.I know, it's how I've been playing the entire time. I'm just pointing out, again, that this is the reason I don't bother going for stuff like that.

[UnLucky]

Well I specifically made a RAcaseal for the extra R-Atk, Dex, and R-Def for equip requirements.

It shouldn't be on me to fix it if Sega fails to release equivalent equipment sets for each class archetype. A melee character should have good melee gear with melee stats, yet for some reason the best melee stuff hardly ever depends on melee stats.

[gigawuts]

It's a scary thought. But the thing about this is that up until now sega has been exceptionally good about their cash shop items. Sure there are some gameplay items we wouldn't have otherwise (any equip related stuff from AC scratch) but none of those things are so amazing and give equips giant advantages over others. And because you can, at the very least, trade most of that stuff it's not a big deal right now since everyone has access to it at least via player shops.

Now if they release an AC item that you must have to unlock Level 4/5 potential that is not tradeable, then we have a problem.

At launch, I think Sega knew that would very quickly be the game's own demise.

Now?

I honestly think Sega could get away with it now.


So long as they put out new content, every gear in the game will eventually be outclassed by something new, so there's really not that much reason not to upgrade. Fortunately for you, this is a game that's more reliant on (some) skill than equips, so you're generally fine with old gear. I mean it really depends about how much you care about TTK and/or survivability.
Yeah, it's the nature of the beast. It's why I upgrade my gear maybe once every 3 months, and invest into it maybe once every 6-8 (and even then nothing special, and usually for versatility instead of overspecialization). I put off looking for the Saiki 11* units until the trigger parties were being organized, and I've got them ready to go for 4 slotting right now with everything I need, but I'm holding off to see if there are even better units in the new area.

If there aren't then I'm going ahead with them. If there are then I'm seeing if triggers are available. If not, Saiki units it is. If there are I may organize trigger parties myself.

Weapons are another story entirely. I upgrade and resell based on class equippability and versatility.

[Selphea]

You can use a keyboard shortcut to do that.

But seriously, cutscene deaths from Elder? Could you please give a better example for HP being useful? This is like the worst possible example possible. Even avoiding one-shots by Umblla (which is impossible with level cap and decent equipment, as far as I'm aware) is a better argument for HP being useful.

Losing out on 15% Droprate post-patch and Vraolet's untekked chance is a lot. How is Umblla worse?


Yes, and sometimes I even die. But I die a considerable fraction of the time compared to other people with 4 digit HP. Claiming that Newman are statistically gimped because of their low HP is blatantly wrong. Hell, the HP difference for female Humans and Newmans, assuming a level capped Bo/Hu (biggest HP difference), is merely 66. Selphia's example is pretty blatantly just their friend being new and inexperienced.

It's HP compounded by lower SDef, and that player is actually more experienced than I was. When we came back for Ep3 my highest class was Ranger at 20 compared to Force at 47.

On Saturday doing back to back Losers I did one run late at night when I was half asleep and Automate Deadline kicked in 10 times - I was out of Trimates when I went back to campship and checked. On the plus side, 0 deaths.

First thought: "I really should go to bed"

Second thought: "Thank you Human HP and Automate Deadline"

I also acknowledge that it takes thousands of hours - not just on PSO2, but reflex-intensive games like fighting games, FPSes, action games and the like, to get attuned enough to avoid most hits. It's not a level that everyone will be able to reach.

When I get to that level I may transition from Human to Dewman and drop Stamina 3 from my units, but until then I have to say HP is making a very big difference and that is probably the case for most beginner to intermediate players too.

[gigawuts]

I use my high HP pool as a playstyle.

By which I mean, I use elder pain and sometimes actually leave the room while playing on my wireless controller hitting JA with muscle memory and come back with lots of dead stuff and full health.

It's funny surviving things like cougar nukes that way.

[Hexxy]

At launch, I think Sega knew that would very quickly be the game's own demise.

Now?

I honestly think Sega could get away with it now.

It could happen naturally in a level cap up or two. Some of the highest req gear do actually get a bit high. Orochi is a 700 satk req which you barely go past with double melee, pure mag, and being a cast/dew. 13*+ will probably require even higher amounts, maybe enough that it will practically force people to invest in satk up's (most people get some anyways but it's not forced). Although right now you really aren't required to pick a specific race to equip things. That could all change of course.

The problem goes back to what has already been said: some of the best gears aren't even related to your main stats.




but I'm holding off to see if there are even better units in the new area.

Even more so than that, I'm expecting Ultimate to come with some things that will just blow anything out right now out of the water. I could be wrong (I hope I am).

[LonelyGaruga]

HP isn't force-fed to characters as much as atk is. It's a rarer commodity than atk is (which does have a diminishing return in its total contribution to a % damage increase). That's what I've been getting at. Depending on set, it is the difference in taking a double hit (which does happen) and living, or dying.

Oh, I see, so HP is good because it means you die less.

I never really looked at it like that.

Seriously though, I'm struggling to see how what you say makes HP more useful than ATK. Diminishing returns or not, you're still getting more out of ATK than HP, as long as you don't get hit every time something attacks you. Unless you abuse super armor, then HP is pretty cool.


Losing out on 15% Droprate post-patch and Vraolet's untekked chance is a lot. How is Umblla worse?

It's HP compounded by lower SDef, and that player is actually more experienced than I was. When we came back for Ep3 my highest class was Ranger at 20 compared to Force at 47.

On Saturday doing back to back Losers I did one run late at night when I was half asleep and Automate Deadline kicked in 10 times - I was out of Trimates when I went back to campship and checked. On the plus side, 0 deaths.

First thought: "I really should go to bed"

Second thought: "Thank you Human HP and Automate Deadline"

I also acknowledge that it takes thousands of hours - not just on PSO2, but reflex-intensive games like fighting games, FPSes, action games and the like, to get attuned enough to avoid most hits. It's not a level that everyone will be able to reach.

When I get to that level I may transition from Human to Dewman and drop Stamina 3 from my units, but until then I have to say HP is making a very big difference and that is probably the case for most beginner to intermediate players too.

OK, I just want to point this out about Elder cutscene deaths. You can use a shortcut on the keyboard to switch weapons while you're KO'd. I said as much in a post you quoted. You lose nothing when you do this, so this type of death does nothing more than cost a person 250 meseta to revive you. And if that's inexplicably not an option, switch to the Vraolet before Elder dies. Easy solution to a simple problem. Though honestly, in 3000 or so hours of playing, I've never experienced one of these cutscene deaths in the first place, so I'm a little confused as to how this even warrants being mentioned. Either way, this is a meaningless thing to be concerned about.

Female Humans do not have more S-DEF than female Newmans. They have the exact same S-DEF. All three defense stats, between the two of them, are exactly the same. The only differences are female Humans having more HP, very slightly more R-ATK, and more DEX, while female Newmans have the absolute best T-ATK stat. Your friend being better than you doesn't actually tell me anything about whether they're good or not, so my point still stands about that. They're going to have like 600 HP when capped, ignoring affixes and unit bonuses. That's plenty enough to avoid a lot of two-shots as is, many mobs that hit me don't even surpass 250 per hit (which means they three-shot me). Bosses hit harder, but they're also much less likely to land those hits in the first place, and as a tech using class, access to Resta means that if it didn't kill you, you're healing back to full for free anyway.

Outside of Loser's phase 2 ball barrages, I can't think of any attack where I feel slightly threatened. Everything else is either heavily damaging but easy to dodge or not very damaging and easy to dodge. Phase 2 balls mainly get hits by cornering yourself by accident or not using the camera to follow them all (though yeah, it can be pretty tricky).

The game time thing is definitely one of the more important things to consider that I haven't thought about. I just figured these things aren't really that hard to pick up, but then when you point out that there are people who might just be getting into video games or only play very casually, yeah, they would have a vastly different mindset compared to people that have spent most of their life playing games. So their reaction times would probably be worse and HP would probably be necessary for them, especially if they're older people whose fingers might not work as quickly as a younger person.

But at high level play that stuff doesn't really apply, and I think most discussion about game balance assumes we're talking about high level play. At least, that's what I came into the topic expecting. Balancing gameplay around low/intermediate level players isn't a very good idea if it creates imbalances in higher tiers of play.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Oh, I see, so HP is good because it means you die less.

I never really looked at it like that.

Seriously though, I'm struggling to see how what you say makes HP more useful than ATK. Diminishing returns or not, you're still getting more out of ATK than HP, as long as you don't get hit every time something attacks you.



Here's the thing; if you know you will die in two hits, you will back off and heal every time you get hit (unless you're abusing uncharged namegid/automate), you just lost more damage than that 30ish S atk is worth. If you get double hit, the only damage you're doing is to the floor with your face.

Just 66 hp could be just enough to get you over that threshold so you could get up from a two hit combo, or take a hit, and keep fighting at least until you take another hit.

I'm not saying throw away atk affixes, and get HP. I'm saying getting HP from being a certain race without trying is a pretty big. Arguably moreso than 30ish extra atk in a stat not usable for all class.

Didn't think it needed to be said, but this is from melee PoV. I've seen more glass cannon Fos than anything else, and I'm damn sure they get away with it because mirage escape, tech range, and their tendancy to nuke something down before it even qualifies as an immediate threat. Going into SH with no extra HP affixes on equestrio XQ units as a Fi/Hu newearl using double sabers... getting comboed was a regular thing. Those units were damn near unusable without extra HP when my defense consisted of step, acro effect, and a lack of wide range control.

It got alot easier to survive using sarabande, and katana guard/kanran after that, but that's another story.

[LonelyGaruga]

I'm playing melee Te/Fi and I'm not really having any of the issues you describe, in any map. I don't back off unless it's impossible to evade the attack, and honestly, Step is the best evasive action in the whole game, as far as I'm concerned. I feel safer as a Te/Fi than I did when playing Force (which was up until Wand Lovers started giving Step) because Step is so good. No lag between attacks thanks to Step Attack, the invincibility frames are perfect for dodging attacks using them, no downtime after dodging ensuring that there is no moment where I'm properly vulnerable, the mobility it allows makes getting around hordes of mobs and maneuvering around bosses so much easier, etc etc.

While I can Resta every time I do get hit (uncharged Resta usually heals whatever hit me, which means almost no downtime since I can JA off that), which is an advantage proper melee classes do not have, proper melee classes already have enough HP that dying in two hits is almost certainly not a concern, and they have many more defensive and close range/mobility options than a melee Techer does. Blocks, invincibility frames tacked onto attacks, greater range and mobility, all sorts of things that make the job that much easier.

For your example, the issue isn't even HP, it's just that mobbing isn't very good with a Double Saber. I'm assuming you're talking about before Chaos Riser, at least. If this is with Chaos Riser, there's really no excuse. Even without it though, you had 100 more HP than I did/do, and at 65/65, you'd still have around 600 HP, which is enough for most mob attacks to be 3HKOs. Only really unusual ones like Windira lasers would put you at 2HKO range. In other words, your HP really shouldn't have been a problem, especially if you used Twin Daggers (assuming post Bloody Sarabande) or a Hunter weapon instead of a Double Saber.

Getting free HP is nice if you're tanking hits to abuse super armor, but outside of that, I really see no reason to care about it when you can, for example, run straight into a slapping Falz Arm and Step through it to reach the other side, or dance in front of an angry Banther and avoid every claw swipe. When melee characters can dodge rain, I don't think taking hits should be a significant concern.

[Walkure]

I went through SH with Ragne units for an ungodly long time :wacko:

Using single-target attacks on mobs pretty much always led to madness, only problem was that there weren't tons of good mobbing PAs and whatnot on FI at the advent of SH. So that led to mobs either not being killed quickly or just being left on their own, which led to Bad Things™.

Speaking of:

For your example, the issue isn't even HP, it's just that mobbing isn't very good with a Double Saber. I'm assuming you're talking about before Chaos Riser, at least. If this is with Chaos Riser, there's really no excuse.
This was talking about pre-Bloody Sarabande. If you used FI weapons on FI, there was basically... Straight Charge and maybe Tornado Dance to work with.

Now it's at the point where I'm pretty confident that unless Ultimate mobs are immune to launch or knockdowns that any melee will be able to walk all over them.

I heal off the occasional scratch when mobbing using Limit Break, honestly. If it's against bosses I occasionally do that too but if I'm saving LB for a vulnerability window then I might use a mate instead.

[Selphea]

OK, I just want to point this out about Elder cutscene deaths. You can use a shortcut on the keyboard to switch weapons while you're KO'd. I said as much in a post you quoted. You lose nothing when you do this, so this type of death does nothing more than cost a person 250 meseta to revive you. And if that's inexplicably not an option, switch to the Vraolet before Elder dies. Easy solution to a simple problem. Though honestly, in 3000 or so hours of playing, I've never experienced one of these cutscene deaths in the first place, so I'm a little confused as to how this even warrants being mentioned. Either way, this is a meaningless thing to be concerned about.

I will have to look into this, although I was under the impression that you have to be in a state where you can use a normal attack to switch weapons, otherwise the weapon switch simply gets queued.


Female Humans do not have more S-DEF than female Newmans. They have the exact same S-DEF. All three defense stats, between the two of them, are exactly the same. The only differences are female Humans having more HP, very slightly more R-ATK, and more DEX, while female Newmans have the absolute best T-ATK stat. Your friend being better than you doesn't actually tell me anything about whether they're good or not, so my point still stands about that. They're going to have like 600 HP when capped, ignoring affixes and unit bonuses. That's plenty enough to avoid a lot of two-shots as is, many mobs that hit me don't even surpass 250 per hit (which means they three-shot me). Bosses hit harder, but they're also much less likely to land those hits in the first place, and as a tech using class, access to Resta means that if it didn't kill you, you're healing back to full for free anyway.

I did level as Bo/Br and later Bo/Gu while my friend levelled as Bo/Fo so the SDef difference was a bit bigger than that since we didn't make mirror builds. That said, I made it out of many attacks with 10-ish HP left so if I was a newman or dewman I'd have died there.


Outside of Loser's phase 2 ball barrages, I can't think of any attack where I feel slightly threatened. Everything else is either heavily damaging but easy to dodge or not very damaging and easy to dodge. Phase 2 balls mainly get hits by cornering yourself by accident or not using the camera to follow them all (though yeah, it can be pretty tricky).

Recapping some recent deaths I had:

One of them was when Loser glitched and did two attacks at the same time - the slow sword spin along with big red patches and circles travelling across the ground. Same thing happened after I upgraded my Gunner set and Automate saved me that time.

Another was meleeing Chrome Dragon with Dispersion Shrike, and getting juggled 3 times by spikes from the ground because it moved too slow.

Another was when a Wonda spawned on top of me and I got put into hitstun and ate a Gel Wulff from behind before Melitta finally decided to tell me there was a Code Avoid.

Another was trying to move out of the way of Dragon Ex's slash combo when I got hit by the fast shot from its infected crab while I was right in front of its claw.

Another was when I tried to Starling Fall out of Quartz's air barrage and got double hit by its beam breath once I got out of the iframe. Or it could have been Mizer. I just remember it was a blue beam that double hit in the air.

When you say Te/Fi I'm wondering whether it's ranged with Elysion or melee wand smacking. Being ranged in this game is a lot easier since you have a much better perspective of what the boss/mob is doing. Edit: Ah melee

I agree that most of the time stuff doesn't actually try to kill you, but BS happens a lot, especially in melee as Jumpsuit says, and also especially as melee in the air where you seem to stay in a hittable state on the way down, unlike when you're grounded and get some invincibility following a knockdown. Unfortunately, Jet Boots is designed for air melee and I'd probably have gotten myself killed a lot more if I'd stuck to it.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I went through SH with Ragne units for an ungodly long time :wacko:

Using single-target attacks on mobs pretty much always led to madness, only problem was that there weren't tons of good mobbing PAs and whatnot on FI at the advent of SH. So that led to mobs either not being killed quickly or just being left on their own, which led to Bad Things™.

Speaking of:

This was talking about pre-Bloody Sarabande. If you used FI weapons on FI, there was basically... Straight Charge and maybe Tornado Dance to work with.

Now it's at the point where I'm pretty confident that unless Ultimate mobs are immune to launch or knockdowns that any melee will be able to walk all over them.

I heal off the occasional scratch when mobbing using Limit Break, honestly. If it's against bosses I occasionally do that too but if I'm saving LB for a vulnerability window then I might use a mate instead.

Nail on the noggin right here.


Also, there are mobs that can hit for 400+ damage against ~1200 defense. I got two shot regularly using ragne units by SH preds for example. City SHAQ was fun...

[LonelyGaruga]

I will have to look into this, although I was under the impression that you have to be in a state where you can use a normal attack to switch weapons, otherwise the weapon switch simply gets queued.

I did level as Bo/Br and later Bo/Gu while my friend levelled as Bo/Fo so the SDef difference was a bit bigger than that since we didn't make mirror builds. That said, I made it out of many attacks with 10-ish HP left so if I was a newman or dewman I'd have died there.

Recapping some recent deaths I had:

*snip*

When you say Te/Fi I'm wondering whether it's ranged with Elysion or melee wand smacking. Being ranged in this game is a lot easier since you have a much better perspective of what the boss/mob is doing.

I agree that most of the time stuff doesn't actually try to kill you, but BS happens a lot, especially in melee as Jumpsuit says, and also especially as melee in the air where you seem to stay in a hittable state on the way down, unlike when you're grounded and get some invincibility following a knockdown. Unfortunately, Jet Boots is designed for air melee and I'd probably have gotten myself killed a lot more if I'd stuck to it.

Someone on the team I was formerly on was complaining about people not reviving before the crystal popped and someone else told them about this method for weapon switching. I haven't tried it so I can't tell you how it goes, though. I think you have to hotkey it, like how TAers instantly switch weapons. Switching to Vraolet before Elder dies would probably be easiest, he usually dies a couple seconds after the low health comment.

Bo/Br has slightly higher S-DEF than Bo/Fo, yeah. A female Newman Bo/Br would have the same S-DEF as a female Human one though. Bo/Fo also gives less HP, but subclasses don't add much HP anyway.

Loser death isn't actually a glitch, that's normal behavior from him, surprisingly. He doesn't stop attacking while the lava pools are up, so he has free reign to start the sword spin before they go away. I guess that death was pretty fair, it gets hard to see what's going on due to the visual blockages. Outside of the Gel Wulff spawning thing (which confuses me a little because Wondas knock you down when they catch you upon spawning, and their other attacks don't flinch you), which is a bit of an RNG thing about whether you can react to it or not, everything else you listed sounds like plain old mistakes. I'm not especially familiar with what Bouncer can and can't do, so I dunno what you were doing with Quartz in the first place, and whether it was a good idea or not (probably wasn't since you died doing it) but the others shouldn't have been a problem.

I've had some stupid combo deaths upon the exact instant of landing before I could even JR, so I wouldn't say air combat is any less safe than ground combat. In fact, air combat puts you above many attacks from mobs and bosses, with some being completely incapable of hitting you in the air. I think the real issue is that you're learning what to do and what not to do, which does involve taking a lot of hits in the process as you learn what not to do. Pretty standardfare.


Also, there are mobs that can hit for 400+ damage against ~1200 defense. I got two shot regularly using ragne units by SH preds for example. City SHAQ was fun...

Outdated units were the issue there. Your S-DEF was considerably lower compared to what it could and should have been. Simple as that.

[Selphea]

Someone on the team I was formerly on was complaining about people not reviving before the crystal popped and someone else told them about this method for weapon switching. I haven't tried it so I can't tell you how it goes, though. I think you have to hotkey it, like how TAers instantly switch weapons. Switching to Vraolet before Elder dies would probably be easiest, he usually dies a couple seconds after the low health comment.

Bo/Br has slightly higher S-DEF than Bo/Fo, yeah. A female Newman Bo/Br would have the same S-DEF as a female Human one though. Bo/Fo also gives less HP, but subclasses don't add much HP anyway.

Loser death isn't actually a glitch, that's normal behavior from him, surprisingly. He doesn't stop attacking while the lava pools are up, so he has free reign to start the sword spin before they go away. I guess that death was pretty fair, it gets hard to see what's going on due to the visual blockages. Outside of the Gel Wulff spawning thing (which confuses me a little because Wondas knock you down when they catch you upon spawning, and their other attacks don't flinch you), which is a bit of an RNG thing about whether you can react to it or not, everything else you listed sounds like plain old mistakes. I'm not especially familiar with what Bouncer can and can't do, so I dunno what you were doing with Quartz in the first place, and whether it was a good idea or not (probably wasn't since you died doing it) but the others shouldn't have been a problem.

I've had some stupid combo deaths upon the exact instant of landing before I could even JR, so I wouldn't say air combat is any less safe than ground combat. In fact, air combat puts you above many attacks from mobs and bosses, with some being completely incapable of hitting you in the air. I think the real issue is that you're learning what to do and what not to do, which does involve taking a lot of hits in the process as you learn what not to do. Pretty standardfare.

Exactly - many of them were mistakes, but mistakes that could have been lived through with enough HP :P Newman doesn't have that luxury

[LonelyGaruga]

Mistakes that you wouldn't have needed to live through in the first place if you didn't make them, you mean. You're at fault for making the mistake in the first place, not having enough HP to survive it.

You know how car accidents are called that? They really aren't accidents. That would imply they just happen. They're caused by mistakes. Getting hit is like that (barring super armor). The focus should be avoiding the mistake in the first place, not surviving it (the car crash analogy is over for the record). The former makes the latter unnecessary.

[Selphea]

Mistakes that you wouldn't have needed to live through in the first place if you didn't make them, you mean. You're at fault for making the mistake in the first place, not having enough HP to survive it.

You know how car accidents are called that? They really aren't accidents. That would imply they just happen. They're caused by mistakes. Getting hit is like that (barring super armor). The focus should be avoiding the mistake in the first place, not surviving it (the car crash analogy is over for the record). The former makes the latter unnecessary.

I take it you want the car crash analogy to be over so that the airbag analogy wouldn't be brought in?

[LonelyGaruga]

No, because tanking is a thing, so getting hit is sometimes OK. Not so with car crashes. HP for the sake of surviving hits is a safety bag that you shouldn't really need. If you need HP to survive a hit, what you really need is to get better at avoiding hits. Your standard HP should be sufficient.

[Selphea]

No, because tanking is a thing, so getting hit is sometimes OK. Not so with car crashes. HP for the sake of surviving hits is a safety bag that you shouldn't really need. If you need HP to survive a hit, what you really need is to get better at avoiding hits. Your standard HP should be sufficient.

In that case, why were things like Gunne Souls, Stamina Booster, Stamina 3 and Guts Drink put into the game for everyone to use and not just tanking classes? Even Force gets HP Up 1 as a skill. Surely their base HP would be enough. Were they intended to tank by the designers?

[gigawuts]

In that case, why were things like Gunne Souls, Stamina Booster, Stamina 3 and Guts Drink put into the game for everyone to use and not just tanking classes? Even Force gets HP Up 1 as a skill. Surely their base HP would be enough. Were they intended to tank by the designers?

People like options. More options are good, because the alternative is fewer options. If someone wants to spend 10 sp on FO for hp up, and go FO/HU, they can.

It doesn't necessarily mean the options themselves are all equal, or equally effective, but it's still not a step in the wrong direction.

Besides, what else is there left to do on souls? Even more multi atk souls? Are those actually meant to be used? I really doubt it. They're more filler than anything else IMO, barring maybe a t&satk soul or two.

[LonelyGaruga]

In that case, why were things like Gunne Souls, Stamina Booster, Stamina 3 and Guts Drink put into the game for everyone to use and not just tanking classes? Even Force gets HP Up 1 as a skill. Surely their base HP would be enough. Were they intended to tank by the designers?

Just because it was put in the game doesn't mean it's intended for everyone, or that it was intended to be good, or that it will be good. Force getting HP Up 1 doesn't even mean much when HP Up 3 isn't worth it on Hunter, a class that actually does tank.

I really don't understand why people even bring up pointless things like this. Why not bring up DEX, DEF, or elemental resistance affixes while you're at it? They're in the game because they make sense to be in it. It isn't Sega's obligation to make them good.

[Selphea]

People like options. More options are good, because the alternative is fewer options. If someone wants to spend 10 sp on FO for hp up, and go FO/HU, they can.

It doesn't necessarily mean the options themselves are all equal, or equally effective, but it's still not a step in the wrong direction.

Besides, what else is there left to do on souls? Even more multi atk souls? Are those actually meant to be used? I really doubt it. They're more filler than anything else IMO, barring maybe a t&satk soul or two.

Actually the newest soul has +4 PP.

[Selphea]

Just because it was put in the game doesn't mean it's intended for everyone, or that it was intended to be good, or that it will be good. Force getting HP Up 1 doesn't even mean much when HP Up 3 isn't worth it on Hunter, a class that actually does tank.

I really don't understand why people even bring up pointless things like this. Why not bring up DEX, DEF, or elemental resistance affixes while you're at it? They're in the game because they make sense to be in it. It isn't Sega's obligation to make them good.

That's a slippery slope to base an argument on. Suppose it isn't Sega's obligation to make every stat good. What is Sega's obligation with regard to balance then? Take the crafted weapon buff for example. Why did they bother buffing crafted weapons? They shouldn't be obliged to make them worthwhile just because they were put into the game right?

[LonelyGaruga]

Doesn't change that most souls are filler. What's your point?

There's a big difference between making HP good and crafted equipment good. HP, by design, is not necessary unless you tank or get hit. And not getting hit is something most players should be capable of achieving at least 70-80% of the time at a minimum. Only a few hits per quest should be taken, period, unless you're tanking for super armor purposes. Making HP good in that context means making HP necessary to survive. Which basically means putting attacks that can't be avoided into the game.

Crafted weapons, on the other hand, are really easy to make viable. Literally just number adjustment there.

[gigawuts]

We're not saying they shouldn't be good, just that every option isn't for every class or build.

Hunter can affix Mizer soul to its gear. Does that mean every FI/HU should be going 5slot 110 ratk & pp because they can?

If you want to talk about slippery slopes then perhaps you should watch your own footing.

Again: Where are the god tier innate ranged capabilities of over a dozen varieties for HU and FI, if FO is meant to be an effective tank? Not everything is meant to be, or going to be, good at everything.

[Hexxy]

Sega has to add options for everything. Not everyone minmaxes.

[Selphea]

We're not saying they shouldn't be good, just that every option isn't for every class or build.

Hunter can affix Mizer soul to its gear. Does that mean every FI/HU should be going 5slot 110 ratk & pp because they can?

That actually makes sense for a Gunslash build.


If you want to talk about slippery slopes then perhaps you should watch your own footing.

Again: Where are the god tier innate ranged capabilities of over a dozen varieties for HU and FI, if FO is meant to be an effective tank? Not everything is meant to be, or going to be, good at everything.

Exactly! They don't get that, but Force gets HP. That means they intended for Forces to get hit. Otherwise, why give anything that isn't a tanking class more than 1 HP?

[gigawuts]

That actually makes sense for a Gunslash build.



Exactly! They don't get that, but Force gets HP. That means they intended for Forces to get hit. Otherwise, why give anything that isn't a tanking class more than 1 HP?

You're either being so sarcastic that I actually find it arousing or you're vastly overestimating Sega, and/or Sega's view of its players, here.

[Hexxy]

Exactly! They don't get that, but Force gets HP. That means they intended for Forces to get hit. Otherwise, why give anything that isn't a tanking class more than 1 HP?

I wouldn't say they "intended" for forces (or any class) to get hit, persay. I believe the options are there for anyone who may value higher HP (and plenty of people do). It hurts like hell to get hit. A good 2-4 hits is generally death, and more HP lets you be on the upper range of that and offers a glass wall against mistakes.

[LonelyGaruga]

That actually makes sense for a Gunslash build.



Exactly! They don't get that, but Force gets HP. That means they intended for Forces to get hit. Otherwise, why give anything that isn't a tanking class more than 1 HP?

I'm trying really hard to figure out how to reply, but I'm worried about losing brain cells at this point. I'm going to assume you were being sarcastic about this the entire time. I don't want to consider the possibility of playing with Force players that think HP Up 1 is good.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

No, because tanking is a thing, so getting hit is sometimes OK. Not so with car crashes. HP for the sake of surviving hits is a safety bag that you shouldn't really need. If you need HP to survive a hit, what you really need is to get better at avoiding hits. Your standard HP should be sufficient.

That's subjective, and also depends on unit set choice.

Newman Br/Hu with gloam white tail = 716 hp and 1276 s def (80hp comes from gloam, so that's not even base HP, but it's the next most popular unit set after saiki)

Doesn't feel right, when I know some mobs can hit for ~400, and I solo most of the time.


Ps: cast male has 85 more hp (stamina 2 +stamina boost). More importantly, that's 8.5% more hp with that setup. They also have 27 S atk (which isn't even 2% more striking damage with a decent weapon). The HP is usable on any class.

The atk gain on the one form of attack you care about at the time around the neighborhood of one power 3.

Really does seem like HP is over budget as far as racials go because of the absurd atk stats we all have, and the lower number of HP sources. Most of its value is from the fact we cannot get as much, and there's less sources of it than atk. PP is in the same boat.

I'd like to see base PP differences between races even more now.


If we think about ATK as a % damage gain, 30 atk is about 2% extra damage at best (again, if you're using a decent weapon and have at least 2k attack without buffs), which is 1-2 SP from something like fury combo up.
Now if we go over to HP, it will take more than 10 points to get that same 85 HP. Or even if it was newearl-humarl HP, it would still take damn near all of HP up 2 (though likely not all of it since everyone using HU is forced to have 18 extra HP to grab fury stance, do it's more like 8 in HP up 2 after that totalling 13 SP).

Again, I'm not saying go out of your way for HP. Just saying free HP from racials is a pretty fking good deal, which could be matched with giving some races free PP. Comparing the value of atk from racials beyond equipping stuff to HP doesn't make much sense because we're all saturated in ATK stats.

Speaking of which, looking at Fo's PP up skill, it's a 1:1. It would take 15 points for 15 PP, while it would take 15 points for a newearl to have the HP of a cast. I guess 15 extra base PP for newmans really does make some sense. I'd have to do math to see where deumans and humans would fall, but something tells me 10, and 5 respectively. Not using HP as the sole reference to figure out how much free PP a race should have, because if I did, we'd have deumans with 15 extra PP as well, which will be like the second coming of 'cast master race'.

[LonelyGaruga]

Mobs hit harder than a lot of boss attacks so I don't see the issue with that. They're deliberately designed so that they're easy to dodge but hard hitting when they do (or vice versa, never both hard hitting and hard to dodge). You're pretty bad at dodging if that much HP isn't sufficient, especially with Combat Escape in play. That set provides some solid striking resistance too, a lot better than what I have. All I'm really getting out of this is that you're bad at solo play. I solo at least 90% of the time and never felt I was lacking in HP. I'd be right at home with your circumstances.

The only subjectivity is the level of competence at not getting hit. If you need more HP, then fine. But a better player would not and does not. The usefulness of HP is vastly disproportionate for a good player compared to the usefulness of more ATK. That's why HP gets such big discrepancies.

The only meaningful racial stat gap that's been mentioned so far is the penalties given to Casts preventing them from equipping specific weapons and units. No surprise it wasn't from the same people claiming Newmans have it rougher than other classes.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Mobs hit harder than a lot of boss attacks so I don't see the issue with that. They're deliberately designed so that they're easy to dodge but hard hitting when they do (or vice versa, never both hard hitting and hard to dodge). You're pretty bad at dodging if that much HP isn't sufficient, especially with Combat Escape in play. That set provides some solid striking resistance too, a lot better than what I have. All I'm really getting out of this is that you're bad at solo play. I solo at least 90% of the time and never felt I was lacking in HP. I'd be right at home with your circumstances.

The only subjectivity is the level of competence at not getting hit. If you need more HP, then fine. But a better player would not and does not. The usefulness of HP is vastly disproportionate for a good player compared to the usefulness of more ATK. That's why HP gets such big discrepancies.

The subject of the value of HP to survivability vs damage for a player is going to derail things at this point. because it all hinges on playstyle (walkure already mentioned why being using Fi weapons in VHAQS->SH before sarabande/chaos raiser sucked), and personal preference which will go on forever, which is why I stopped talking about my personal preference after the first 3 sentences.

I moved on to actual numbers.


The only meaningful racial stat gap

Opinion


that's been mentioned so far is the penalties given to Casts preventing them from equipping specific weapons and units. No surprise it wasn't from the same people claiming Newmans have it rougher than other classes.

... why are you bringing that up after we all know multiple races were subject to the same shit before, CASTS can now equip everything, and SEGA has a habit of either raising level cap/dropping def requirement anyway? Way to attempt to jab at credibility with something... now irrelevant.

[Walkure]

Some mobs get significantly more dangerous if you leave them alone, like Predicahda and Signos. If one or two of them stay out of view for a while, then usually their entrance onto the screen is a split second to react before death. That's also by design; they're paper cannons. Any sufficient AoE usually stops them in their tracks, but you need to have that AoE in the first place.

Again, it's mostly stuff that's not all that relevant now. I'm fine with 716 HP, even 179 HP at times, because I've got a lot more safe mobbing tools since the start of Ep2, whereas I'm pretty sure I wasn't all that comfortable with 750-800 in VHAQ from Lucky Rise units at the time because I didn't have anything but focused attacks.

[gigawuts]

HP, PP, and unsatisfied stat reqs are all different beasts.

They really can't be compared.

For the time being, newmans die about as often as dewmans and they never whine. HU, RA, FI, and GU Casts are sometimes unable to equip endgame gear when it is endgame without spending sp on their mag - with literally zero alternatives. Certain races are unable to equip an Elysion without a bit of satk on their mag or some points in SATK Up, which every single FO or TE main class combination but FO/RA and FO/GU offers.

Neither of these things are pleasant, however they are also not comparable. One costs real life money, and the other gets you killed sometimes when you can't/don't dodge an attack.

I say both are bad design, personally.

I say giving racial PP bonuses is even worse than both of those, however. This is a game that's mostly about pure offense. You kill things before they can kill you. In many cases 5-8 more PP is easily the difference between another attack and being out of PP. While health is disproportionately less useful towards the endgame PP is disproportionately more useful towards the endgame - especially on minmaxed characters.



My own solution?

Nerf the cast tdef penalty to 97% and nerf the newman hp penalty to 97% as well. Additionally, emphasize HP on gear more often. Increase the base HP on crafted units by 20 across the board(and the base pp by 1). Also, give all units a bit of base HP, even the +10 PP ones. Give some weapons base HP (Eli's Ion for one) that isn't tied to affixes or latents. When switching to an item with HP affixes, latent, or base HP have it given to you at full capacity. This is mainly to combat Perfect Keeper issues, and it should've been that way since day 1.

Then add the Bronze Subclass I mentioned earlier, including options like:

A grenade/survival tree (up to 10 bind, jellen, upper, gravity, slow, and heal traps + .5%/s hp regen)
A support tree (unchargeable shifta, deband, anti, & resta with +50% range and half techer support bonus)
A mobiilty tree (One extra jump getting you up to max normal jump height with all weapons [good for daggers when you're about to touch the ground, for one example], Just Reversal on wall collisions, & instant max running speed)
A Photon Blast tree (autoheal & shifta+deband when using PB for everyone chaining with you, longer lasting PB circle hold times, and able to build an extra 12.5% PB when PB is full so you get up to 12.5% back when you use your PB...maybe even debuff enemies in the PB circles? Effectiveness of buffs & debuffs should be tied to how difficult building a PB is, so cetos proi isn't even more god tier) (edit: Oh, and maybe a secondary PB...maybe tie most of these stronger effects to that skilltree-restricted PB?)
A new addition for any following race.


They'd just have to make sure none of the Bronze Subclasses have any actual damage skills. Something tied to PBs that take a while to build, sure. Maybe give extra points to the Bronze Subclasses based on race...maybe. We're talking differences like "Can spend 2 more points on +1 Bind Grenade or +.01% hp/s autoheal." since you'd have enough SP to max out the good grenades like gravity and slow, and the autoheal would start strong (like, .4% at 1 sp and .5% at max).

[LonelyGaruga]

The subject of the value of HP to survivability vs damage for a player is going to derail things at this point. because it all hinges on playstyle (walkure already mentioned why being using Fi weapons in VHAQS->SH before sarabande/chaos raiser sucked), and personal preference which will go on forever, which is why I stopped talking about my personal preference after the first 3 sentences.

I moved on to actual numbers.

Numbers that are completely meaningless in high level play. Which is my primary point. HP is the least useful stat in the entire game. PP is one of the most useful stats. Bad players and bad playstyles are irrelevant to this. Giving any race more PP because of lower HP is one of the worst ideas I've seen and does nothing to fix the "issue".

I really don't see why this has had to be repeated for several pages now.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Then we're right back to the original ideas of some combinations of racials, like newmans casting techs no matter the class, and giga's 3rd skill tree idea as long as nothing effects kill speed, max PP, or out of combat movement speed.

[Selphea]

Actually I never saw HP Up 1 as good. It's kind of like that dead mouse your cat brings in. It's gross but you wonder why it brought that home in the first place.

[LonelyGaruga]

Because of the mediocre Force players that need the extra HP.

[UnLucky]

In the same update they also gave everything Dex Up that didn't already have it

So that's proof enough that they have no idea what they're doing.

[Walkure]

HU, RA, FI, and GU Casts are sometimes unable to equip endgame gear when it is endgame without spending sp on their mag - with literally zero alternatives. Certain races are unable to equip an Elysion without a bit of satk on their mag or some points in SATK Up, which every single FO or TE main class combination but FO/RA and FO/GU offers.

Neither of these things are pleasant, however they are also not comparable. One costs real life money, and the other gets you killed sometimes when you can't/don't dodge an attack.

I say both are bad design, personally.Clearly, we need TDEF Up on all class skill trees. （ ・ω ・ ）

What was really needed was a way to delevel mags in at least a limited fashion. I don't know if they ever intend on implementing that though.

Going forward, there shouldn't be any repeats of <70Cap and pre-EP3 shenanigans on equips. I don't think any of the stat complaints are entirely relevant for the current cap (Casts seem to have >430 TDEF on any build on 70cap). If they keep it that way, then, like, cool, disaster averted!


Bad players and bad playstyles are irrelevant to this.Which shouldn't really include classes using their class-specific weapons at all. At least they're making inroads on that; again, every melee class has some good mob controlling tool now.

My mistake if that's not what you were implying there.

[LonelyGaruga]

Well, they're always an option, and Fi/Hu always had access to the Lambda weapons from Hunter. But yeah, that wasn't what I meant. I meant stuff like using Deadly Archer on every single mob, which is something I saw a depressingly high number of Fighter players doing back in VH and early SH days.

[Chik'Tikka]

tl;dr CAST SUPREMACY!+^_^+

[Walkure]

Well, they're always an option, and Fi/Hu always had access to the Lambda weapons from Hunter. But yeah, that wasn't what I meant. I meant stuff like using Deadly Archer on every single mob, which is something I saw a depressingly high number of Fighter players doing back in VH and early SH days.Fair enough. Straight Charge was where it was at as far as mobbing on FI went at the time.


tl;dr CAST SUPREMACY!+^_^+
It's been Newman vs. Cast in the Online Avatar Race Oppression Olympics for like a half dozen pages or so. Meanwhile, Humans and Deumans haven't really given a shit.

Once again, unicorn man real master race.

[Hobu]

Meanwhile, Humans and Deumans haven't really given a shit.

Once again, unicorn man real master race.

True dat. 8-)

[Hexxy]

tl;dr CAST SUPREMACY!+^_^+



Once again, unicorn man real master race.

Even the most powerful Arks are Casts and Newmans. You might as well just submit now.

[Hrith]

I wish races actually mattered in a lot of ways.

As it stands, the only bonus worth shit is HP, because we have a lot less HP than we have ATK, so it makes a bigger difference.

[UnLucky]

Fair enough. Straight Charge was where it was at as far as mobbing on FI went at the time.
Ugh, Straight Charge, AKA Slideshow Central AKA let me just hold out my fist for a bit and hope people run into it until they die

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Ugh, Straight Charge, AKA Slideshow Central AKA let me just hold out my fist for a bit and hope people run into it until they die

I laughed a bit harder than I shoulda've at this.


I wish races actually mattered in a lot of ways.

As it stands, the only bonus worth shit is HP, because we have a lot less HP than we have ATK, so it makes a bigger difference.

Which was what I was going on about, but some people have an issue with that idea :-?

I'll leave it at that.

[I_Am]

I wish races actually mattered in a lot of ways.

As it stands, the only bonus worth shit is HP, because we have a lot less HP than we have ATK, so it makes a bigger difference.

I too wish it mattered. I wish everything mattered a bunch, but not in a way that would breed, "Unless you're X with Y doing Z get out!"

[gigawuts]

I too wish it mattered. I wish everything mattered a bunch, but not in a way that would breed, "Unless you're X with Y doing Z get out!"

It inherently cannot matter any other way since this game is all about 1shotting or not 1shotting. If one race gets something that's going to help it 1shot, but another race isn't, guess which race is the new "best."

Unless the game gains any more depth than that anyone clamoring for increased racial differences is either saying they want that or is saying the wrong thing - they should be saying they want the game to be completely different.

Saying you want racial differences without worsening the game's situation is like me saying I should really start mopping the floor in my burning house because I grew up with clean floors; That ain't solving shit.

Cosmetic differences matter to some people. Actually, they matter to most people, most just won't go any further than the regular appearance of their character.