PDA

View Full Version : How to properly redo the debuff system in PSO2



Maenara
Oct 6, 2014, 11:46 AM
I think we can all agree on something - the status system in PSO2 is complete and utter shit. This is for a wide variety of reasons, including:
•All(Yes, every single one) bosses in the game are completely immune to between 4 and 6 of the following debuffs: Burn, freeze, shock, mirage, panic, and poison.
•For all non-midbosses(And some midbosses too), the status they aren't immune to inflicts a usually completely different effect than what they normally do.
•The above makes it impossible to specialize in any one status, yet it costs 10 SP just to raise a single status' proc chance by 1~4%, making it impossible to generalize too.
•Against normal enemies, normal enemies generally die far too fast for the statuses to mean anything.
•Against normal enemies, normal enemies generally die far too fast for the statuses to even proc with their low rates.
•Against normal enemies, it's impossible to use statuses for mobbing because you have nearly no chance of inflicting a status on multiple enemies simultaneously.

I could make a FO/FI tree which has a 112% chance to proc freeze on enemies with Barta and Rabarta. Does that sound useful to you? Not to me.



To fix the status system, I figure three things should be done, A) Divide each status into five levels with different effects(They're already divided into five levels, but without differing effects, only increased effectivity), B) Eliminate the carpet immunity from bosses, and instead give a maximum effect level for each status and enemy, and C) Raise the proc rate for statuses across the board.

First off, these are the effects at each status level I've devised:

Burn:
[spoiler-box]
I: Singe I: The attack which inflicted this status deals 10% extra damage.
II: Singe II: The attack which inflicted this status deals 25% extra damage.
III: Burn I: Deal damage every tick equal to 50% of the damage dealt by the attack which inflicted this status.
IV: Burn II: Deal damage every tick equal to 100% of the damage dealt by the attack which inflicted this status.
V: Melt: Instantly kill the enemy.[/spoiler-box]

Freeze:
[spoiler-box]
I: Chill I: Slow attacks and movement by 25%.
II: Chill II: Slow attacks and movement by 50%.
III: Freeze I: Freeze solid. Incoming attacks have a 100% chance of removing the status.
IV: Freeze II: Freeze solid. Incoming attacks have a 40% chance of removing the status.
V: Freeze III: Freeze solid. Incoming attacks have a 15% chance of removing the status.[/spoiler-box]

Shock:
[spoiler-box]
I: Charge I: Each tick, deal 100 damage and 100 damage to all targets within 1 meter.
II: Charge II: Each tick, deal 300 damage and 300 damage to all targets within 3 meters. 10% chance of transferring Charge I to damaged targets.
III: Charge III: Each tick, deal 750 damage and 750 damage to all targets within 7 meters. 20% chance of transferring Charge II to damaged targets.
IV: Charge IV: Each tick, deal 2000 damage and 2000 damage to all targets within 12 meters. 30% chance of transferring Charge III to damaged targets.
V: Shock: Each tick, inflict flinch. Each tick, deal 5000 damage and 5000 damage to all targets within 20 meters. 50% chance of transferring Charge IV to damaged targets.[/spoiler-box]

Mirage:
[spoiler-box]
I: Blur I: Outgoing attacks have a 10% chance to miss and cause a visual effect.
II: Blur II: Outgoing attacks have a 25% chance to miss and cause a visual effect.
III: Blur III: Outgoing attacks have a 50% chance to miss and cause a visual effect.
IV: Mirage: Outgoing attacks have a 100% chance to miss and cause a visual effect. 30% chance to degrade to Blur III each tick.
V: Hallucination: Outgoing attacks have a 100% chance to miss and cause a visual effect.[/spoiler-box]

Panic:
[spoiler-box]
I: Confusion I: Outgoing area of effect attacks can damage allies for 50% damage.
II: Confusion II: Outgoing area of effect attacks can damage allies.
III: Panic I: Enemy may target its allies at a 50% lower priority to players.
IV: Panic II: Enemy may target its allies at an equal priority to players.
V: Berserk: Enemy will target the nearest possible target, ally or not, and ignore all others.[/spoiler-box]

Poison:
[spoiler-box]
I: Poison I: Deal damage equal to 00.1% of current HP each second.
II: Poison II: Deal damage equal to 00.25% of current HP each second.
III: Contagion I: Deal damage equal to 00.5% of maximum HP each second. 15% chance to transfer Contagion I, 35% chance to transfer Poison II, to targets within 5 meters each tick.
IV: Contagion II: Deal damage equal to 1% of maximum HP each second. 25% chance to transfer Contagion II, 25% chance to transfer Contagion I, to targets within 7.5 meters each tick.
V: Pandemic: Automatically kill the afflicted target 10 seconds after infliction. 100% chance to transfer Pandemic to targets within 10 meters each tick.[/spoiler-box]

Some of those status levels might seem very overpowered, but hold your horses, the second part is changing how immunities work.

For extra large bosses(Bal Rodos, Big Vardha, Dark Falz Elder/Loser, etcetera), receiving a status above the following levels only applies a status of the listed level, essentially a 'cap' on the level of the status for that boss.
•Burn: II
•Freeze: I
•Shock: III
•Mirage: I
•Panic: I
•Poison: I

For large bosses(Everything else that's not a midboss), the levels are:
•Burn: III
•Freeze: II
•Shock: IV
•Mirage: IV
•Panic: II
•Poison: II

For midbosses:
•Burn: IV
•Freeze: IV
•Shock: V
•Mirage: V
•Panic: V
•Poison: IV

For bosses which have special reactions to certain statuses, they still do. Normal mobs are all fully vulnerable to all statuses.

As for the chances to inflict status, I'll deal in two types, affixes, and techniques. Affixes are easy to deal with. Affixes of a certain level have a low chance to inflict statuses of that level, and higher chances to inflict statuses of a lower level, as shown:
Affix level: I % / II % / III % / IV % / V %
I: 5% /0% /0% /0% /0%
II: 10% /5% /0% /0% /0%
III: 15% /10% /5% /0% /0%
IV: 20% /12% /8% /4% /0%
V: 25% /17% /12% /7% /1%

Level V status affixes would be 'removed' and only attainable on certain weapons, such as Burn V on Flame Visit.

For techniques... Suffice it to say they follow the same rules as affixes, with each one having unique chances. However, only one technique per element can inflict a level V status, the techniques being Namegid, Ilfoie, Nazan, Ragrants, Sabarta, and Sazonde. I'd do a full list of chances but I feel like that'd make this topic way too long and the list would be fairly incomprehensible anyways.

EvilMag
Oct 6, 2014, 11:59 AM
They could rip off pokemon and have burn status cut attack.

Oh and have poison do more damage as time goes on.

Courina
Oct 6, 2014, 12:01 PM
pretty sure pso2 element and statuses related to it , is simplified of the other 2 previous game...
you know... cause the dev dont want this game become too serious but also dont want it become too casual...

i still remember wrong element in pso1 is srs biznizz...

also, you forgottin the debuff atk down and defense down , jelen and zalure , which now only jelen left as launcher's skill and it only tone down like... 15% atk reduce if im not wrong.

gigawuts
Oct 6, 2014, 12:03 PM
Poison should never go away and it should reduce enemy def to negative values.

Problem solved.

Maenara
Oct 6, 2014, 12:03 PM
I remembered Jellen and Zalure and Bind, but I didn't want to delve into those since I have barely any experience with either, especially with Zalure not existing in-game.

Rien
Oct 6, 2014, 12:06 PM
I
I could make a FO/FI tree which has a 112% chance to proc freeze on enemies with Barta and Rabarta. Does that sound useful to you? Not to me.

I planned to make this as a separate tree for TD. As long as I have enough leftover points for freeze keep, it can actually do well.

Kondibon
Oct 6, 2014, 12:07 PM
Honestly, the biggest thing that needs to happen for status effects to be viable (besides having them work on bosses), would be enemies being able to survive long enough to have them for more than like 2 seconds...

gigawuts
Oct 6, 2014, 12:08 PM
Zalure was overtaken by Weak Bullet, except instead of being a decent debuff it's become game breaking at times.

I do like that it's a 4x every 90 seconds thing, since Zalure really did become completely redundant in PSO1. If it's used on everything all the time it stops feeling like a unique ability and starts feeling like an extra layer of tedium. Kind of like fistpumps! Except for every enemy in the game, instead of once every 45 minutes or however long it is now.

They should really give techer a Poison Zalure skill. Anything you poison has -10% element resists and -20% def. Enemies would need more element resist variety to make this anything less than stupidly OP (some elements should be resisted so only a few extra elements become weaknesses), and Zalure would still need to be applicable to bosses somehow.

As it is, SEs are pretty much Chase debuffers for minibosses and large enemies that survive your first attack. You should be able to apply SEs to boost points on bosses. No damage taken by the boss, just Chase damage can be enabled. Also boost points should be breakable, to reduce their attack effectiveness and trigger Break Stance.

Maenara
Oct 6, 2014, 12:18 PM
I feel like you guys are vastly underestimating the shittiness of the status effect system.

Kondibon
Oct 6, 2014, 12:26 PM
I feel like you guys are vastly underestimating the shittiness of the status effect system.I don't disagree that it's bad. I'm just saying that no matter what you change to the status effects them selves, it won't matter much if mobs continue to die before they finish their spawning animation.

I do like your idea of status effects having their effective level capped on bosses so the overpowered ones don't wreck everything though.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 6, 2014, 12:32 PM
I feel like you guys are vastly underestimating the shittiness of the status effect system.

I feel like you are vastly overestimating the effectiveness of your status effect system.

It doesn't fix any of the real problems with the status effect system in the game and does nothing about several of the issues you named in the OP. It doesn't fix the skills that boost SEs, it doesn't fix that SEs are still pretty useless on mobs (particularly in MPAs), no mention of making CA and CAP work for special animations from SEs, and some of the SEs are actually worse than ones already in play.

My biggest gripe, though? That it makes players more OP than they already were. Bosses are already trivialized enough by now, don't you think?

Maenara
Oct 6, 2014, 12:42 PM
I feel like you are vastly overestimating the effectiveness of your status effect system.

It doesn't fix any of the real problems with the status effect system in the game and does nothing about several of the issues you named in the OP. It doesn't fix the skills that boost SEs, it doesn't fix that SEs are still pretty useless on mobs (particularly in MPAs), no mention of making CA and CAP work for special animations from SEs, and some of the SEs are actually worse than ones already in play.

My biggest gripe, though? That it makes players more OP than they already were. Bosses are already trivialized enough by now, don't you think?

I liked the part of your post where you contradicted yourself.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 6, 2014, 12:46 PM
Not really seeing it. Your thread claims to properly redo the status effect system. There's nothing proper about this redo. So it's an ineffective redo.

Unless you mean something else?

Maenara
Oct 6, 2014, 12:48 PM
Not really seeing it. Your thread claims to properly redo the status effect system. There's nothing proper about this redo. So it's an ineffective redo.

Unless you mean something else?


Yes, it's true, I didn't state the solution to status effects not being useful in MPAs. You want to know why? Because the solution is 'raise the proc chance across the board.' Coincidentally, this also fixes the skill problem because the skill bonus is multiplicative. Yes, some of the statuses are WORSE than the ones in play. Why? So that those levels can be inflicted on bosses without it being OP.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 6, 2014, 01:09 PM
That doesn't fix the skills at all, it just make them go from 1-4% to slightly higher. It also doesn't change that status effects are still bad against mobs because they die too quickly. It also makes it so that the status effects that are applied to mobs will frequently be worse than the ones currently in play, just so status effects can be applied to bosses that already are incredibly trivial to fight, with not a single one posing a real threat in any form or fashion.

And Chill is actually the most OP status effect in the Freeze line you listed, and one of the most OP status effects on that entire list at that. It's pretty dumb that the higher level of Freeze effects are worse than the lower ones. Same deal with Pandemic being worse than its lower level variations. What, nothing for 10s and then the target dies? It'll die in half that time at the very most, and everything else in that range. At least Contagion would actually do something. And it's not just the effects that can be applied to bosses that are strictly worse. Every Poison one is worse than what's already in play, same with Panic. Poison V is 50% health loss in this game, far better than Pandemic is, and Panic I has the same effect as Berserk as is.

If you want the status system to be relevant, you should really work on what they're being applied to (the enemies), not how they're applied.

Lumpen Thingy
Oct 6, 2014, 07:28 PM
Why even care about status effects when we just kill things fast anyways? The only status effect that has ever been useful in this series is buffs and being able to either burn, freeze or stun enemies and those were pretty minimal then in the series as they are now.

gigawuts
Oct 6, 2014, 07:31 PM
Why even care about status effects when we just kill things fast anyways? The only status effect that has ever been useful in this series is buffs and being able to either burn, freeze or stun enemies and those were pretty minimal then in the series as they are now.

um because poison turns thigns purple???? A++ debuff

horseship
Oct 6, 2014, 07:39 PM
If turning things purple is the new meta then I need to reset my tree to get Jellen Shot. Always brings a smile to my face when I see it being used on Dark Falz Loser.

Lumpen Thingy
Oct 6, 2014, 07:48 PM
um because poison turns thigns purple???? A++ debuff

dam..........I FORGOT YOU CAN TURN THINGS PURPLE. thanks gigabutts

UnLucky
Oct 6, 2014, 08:09 PM
Here's how you fix status effects:

Make SE boosting skills additive (PF is +70%, Halfline is +100%)

Any time an attack would inflict an SE it deals double damage. Chase Advance simply increases that. Make it a separate effect that shares the same proc chance so it works even if the SE itself doesn't actually apply, like against bosses.

Keep status immunities as is.

strikerhunter
Oct 6, 2014, 08:43 PM
Firstly, I laughed at the rank V status you suggested. Yes I know it's ridiculously hard to transfer them around but why invest even more money to play RNG with proc rates when you could just simply kill said mobs and bosses faster than the SE getting to be applied.

Fixing the effects of SE will still not make them viable until mobs and bosses stop dying left-n-right every few seconds whether it's in a mpa or not.
First fix the mobs so that they don't die every few second so that having SE being able to do its thing will make SE worth investing in then start fixing the SE themselves.