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View Full Version : JP PSO2 (UQ) So It's Going to Be Phantasy Hunter Online 2 After All?



Alandsmj
Oct 17, 2014, 09:58 AM
They recently updated the official blog

http://ameblo.jp/sega-psblog/entry-11940224174.html

And there is one paragraph stating:

現状すべての状況をすぐに変更していくのは難しいのですが、今後配信される「アルティメットクエスト」にお いては、エネミーの耐久力が大きく上がり、法撃や射撃よりも打撃が有効なエネミーなどが登場予定です。アル ティメットクエストにおいては、近接クラスがより活躍の場を得られると思っております。

So basically, in UQ, enemies will have higher resistance to strike/shoot/tech damages BUT melees will have a better time than the rest?

Better start hording fodders, I guess.

Ce'Nedra
Oct 17, 2014, 10:03 AM
About time? Melee classes have been getting short ends of the stick for 2 years now.

Xaelouse
Oct 17, 2014, 10:10 AM
AQs didn't really favor melee classes at all, so it's only fair.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 10:12 AM
Can't say it's unjustified.

Don't want enemies being nuked down before they get in range to be a threat.

As is, Fo stacking would the thing to do... again.

wefwq
Oct 17, 2014, 10:20 AM
Can't really sure that they will manage to make melee based class can compete with other class since they failed that 2 years straight.

Hexxy
Oct 17, 2014, 10:29 AM
Sounds right to me. There's zero risk in being ranged.

Besides it probably won't be anything significant and people will just WB/Chain one-shot everything anyways.

Dnd
Oct 17, 2014, 10:33 AM
Knowing segas balancing, they'll give all the mobs 5% more resist vs ranged and tech damage making it completely pointless.

Lostbob117
Oct 17, 2014, 10:34 AM
I think this more of:

There needs to be a reason to actually get close to enemies.

Seriously, if you are going to have ranged you pretty much need to do less than melee. >.>

serenade
Oct 17, 2014, 10:42 AM
Nice.

A decent damaging tank HU could end up being a party staple. They can take the damage and heal with automate and iron will, and still output damage to match the rest of the party.

Hunter master race!

KazukiQZ
Oct 17, 2014, 10:44 AM
Maybe make it like:
story spoiler
like when you fight Luther, ranged attacks or being far from him makes you can't deal damage to him, only by getting close to him, his invulnerability is gone.

gigawuts
Oct 17, 2014, 10:49 AM
While they may take more striking damage, it looked like every enemy had tech and range attacks coming out their asses.

This may just be them trying to pigeonhole melee into going tanky without losing tons of performance relative to other classes.

Which would actually be really cool in my book if it wasn't tied to a real life money pay wall.

Lostbob117
Oct 17, 2014, 10:52 AM
While they may take more striking damage, it looked like every enemy had tech and range attacks coming out their asses.

This may just be them trying to pigeonhole melee into going tanky without losing tons of performance relative to other classes.

Which would actually be really cool in my book if it wasn't tied to a real life money pay wall.

If Tanky hunter will be able to deal decent damage to the enemies, you'd blow them up with glass cannon hunter. Just will have a bigger risk of dying.

Also, let's not forget that Fighter, Bravers, and Dual Sword Bouncers are all melee.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 10:53 AM
Love the unanimous cautious optimism, btw. An entire page and no one is salty so far that ranged may intentionally be made weaker.

gigawuts
Oct 17, 2014, 10:59 AM
If Tanky hunter will be able to deal decent damage to the enemies, you'd blow them up with glass cannon hunter. Just will have a bigger risk of dying.

Also, let's not forget that Fighter, Bravers, and Dual Sword Bouncers are all melee.

I mean, this isn't false, but at the same time if this really is as tech & ranged spammy as it looked then it won't really be much of an option to be close without getting grazed periodically by just the sheer volume of BS spam.

Think of every fight as Super Hard Vader - spam, spam, spam everywhere. It's not a matter of if you'll be hit, but what fireball from an off-screen enemy will hit you during what animation that you can't cancel. Especially since, as a lot of people have forgotten, the biggest original problem melee faced in this game was having aggro from every fresh spawn due to proximity. I'm 99% expecting that to be an issue again.

And all that spam is probably going to do a whole ton more damage than anything else we can currently encounter that isn't level 3 infected & mutated.

cheapgunner
Oct 17, 2014, 11:11 AM
Love the unanimous cautious optimism, btw. An entire page and no one is salty so far that ranged may intentionally be made weaker.

There has been videos after videos of Ranged classes like Ra/Br and such wiping bosses out in under 10 sec. Melee couldnt touch speed like that at all since WB, Chain and Namegid/ il barta has been around.

Only thing I don't like is having to spam extra techs as FoTe in UQ. Just one hit from the looks of it is game over. >.>

wefwq
Oct 17, 2014, 11:22 AM
Maybe make it like:
story spoiler
like when you fight Luther, ranged attacks or being far from him makes you can't deal damage to him, only by getting close to him, his invulnerability is gone.
I actually liking Luther gimmick but if they pulling it out for UQ shitstorm will come because muh class role.

the_importer_
Oct 17, 2014, 11:30 AM
About time? Melee classes have been getting short ends of the stick for 2 years now.

Fair? Forces spent 3 revisions of the same game being practically useless in combat for Ultimate difficulty, PSO2 was their turn to shine. NOT fair!

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 11:36 AM
Fair? Forces spent 3 revisions of the same game being practically useless in combat for Ultimate difficulty, PSO2 was their turn to shine. NOT fair!

They still have TD.

Arksenth
Oct 17, 2014, 11:47 AM
TECHER SUPREMACY.

gigawuts
Oct 17, 2014, 11:55 AM
Fair? Forces spent 3 revisions of the same game being practically useless in combat for Ultimate difficulty, PSO2 was their turn to shine. NOT fair!

What is this shit, the middle east?

Chdata
Oct 17, 2014, 11:56 AM
Sounds right to me. There's zero risk in being ranged.

Besides it probably won't be anything significant and people will just WB/Chain one-shot everything anyways.

Zero risk in being ranged? LOL. Ranger is one of the worst classes in terms of dodging. At least as a melee class or FO you're pretty much untouchable. Launchers and rifles are the clunkiest damn ways to fight enemies and freeze you in place so much compared to anything else.

Hunter weapons are kinda bad too though IMO. Fi Br Te Bo melees are all really great for dodging though.

RadiantLegend
Oct 17, 2014, 11:57 AM
Just like old times. Bring back jarba/bees resistance.

Vintasticvin
Oct 17, 2014, 11:59 AM
Forces have been the stuff of legends for as long as I can remember.

Shadowth117
Oct 17, 2014, 12:12 PM
To be honest, the force super buff from ep3, as I had been thinking for a while, made a lot of sense if they were going to be having a lot of enemies that start to resist it a lot more. Hopefully not to the point of annoyance where weak stance won't proc or something, but yeah. I just hope it doesn't mean the force based and range based classes don't have use at all. Of course, gunner is guaranteed to be super crap pretty much there if that's confirmed.

Of course, unless things change significantly launchers are still going to be doing major damage to everything in ultimate without a really significant nerf or lack of weak points. I'm really just interested in how this plays out at this point.


About time? Melee classes have been getting short ends of the stick for 2 years now.

I'm sorry, what's that? I was too busy thinking about pre-nerf shunka, hatou, and the 20 invincibility seconds of katana combat. Not to mention katana combat finish itself which uses no PP at all. And then of course you have ass buster which destroyed everything for so long only for even more partizan skills to become good with Ep3. You've got wired lances with stupid broken holding current. For the longest time you had backhand smash with its godly boss killing damage.

...yeah I'm sorry I don't see your point.

NoiseHERO
Oct 17, 2014, 12:15 PM
Just like old times. Bring back jarba/bees resistance.

Rock Eastwood Likes this post.

Sp-24
Oct 17, 2014, 12:19 PM
Guess tank HU is going to be the new FOTM after Rafoie gets nerfed again.

Stealthcmc1974
Oct 17, 2014, 12:40 PM
Rock Eastwood Likes this post.

That's...good? (Why are we speaking in third person?)

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 12:44 PM
I'm sorry, what's that? I was too busy thinking about pre-nerf shunka, hatou, and the 20 invincibility seconds of katana combat. Not to mention katana combat finish itself which uses no PP at all.

The was one class, one weapon.

Pre-nerf shunka didn't last 6 months, and even level-headed bravers wanted it nerfed.
Katanas didn't have hatou until the 3rd area of episode 2. Shunka, and 20 second invincibility didn't come until after that, which was all late last year.


And then of course you have ass buster which destroyed everything

It was the choice method to kill anything before ranged characters blew it up because of gap closing+damage properties; something unique to partisan for far too long, and pigeonholed tons S atk users into needing a lambda patty lumeria to keep up with things like zonde Fo/Fi in the one-shot department. Lightning Fo/Fi being massively popular back then.

So yes, part of the reason why it was so popular was because Fo/Fis made it a necessary evil. Using assbuster to get from spawn to spawn, and even kill something before it got zonde one shot by Fos was part of the reason people liked assbuster. I guess we have Fos to thank for 1 of the 3-4 reasons melee was pigeonholed into needing a partisan.


You've got wired lances with stupid broken holding current.

Using it on small enemies is a waste since they die in two ticks, and you're stuck in the animation.

It's only good on stunnable bosses, which of course isn't every boss.



For the longest time you had backhand smash with its godly boss killing damage.

... and required kissing range, and around twice the PP cost of most techs. You need 135 PP to even have the privalage of using it three times consecutively. Now it's a bad PA who's damage does not justify the PP cost anymore instead of being a situational one with literally the worst range in the game.

Forgot to mention how Hu went from being generally bad outside of assbuster and over end (those didn't come until VH) with a skill tree no one really cared about with its two non-tech JA bonuses, to being good as long as you didn't use their weapons until episode 3.


Entire melee weapon categories fell by the wayside.
Only time techs as a whole did was at the SH release.

Didn't even mention the power of element conversion, which I consider a major part of the cause elysion, a wand, had to be nerfed; before element conversion, uncharged ilbarta from elysion could one-shot non-weak small mobs. But sure, let's just give them another 25% damage multipier when their new techs are this strong. :wacko:

Hexxy
Oct 17, 2014, 01:11 PM
Zero risk in being ranged? LOL. Ranger is one of the worst classes in terms of dodging. At least as a melee class or FO you're pretty much untouchable. Launchers and rifles are the clunkiest damn ways to fight enemies and freeze you in place so much compared to anything else.

Hunter weapons are kinda bad too though IMO. Fi Br Te Bo melees are all really great for dodging though.

Yes, zero risk. There is no argument for ranged classes when your skills and pa's give you the capability to one-shot nigh every boss in the game from FAR outside their attack range.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 17, 2014, 01:17 PM
Zero risk in being ranged? LOL. Ranger is one of the worst classes in terms of dodging. At least as a melee class or FO you're pretty much untouchable.

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that.

Melee classes always got the short end of the stick because the long range classes killed things too quickly for them to do much. Melee classes are actually extremely safe despite their short range, or rather because short range isn't an obstacle for safety. Being closer to enemy attacks is meaningless if you have better options for such a situation, which is exactly the case with melee classes. Best dodge action, most attacks can be guard or step canceled, generally high HP, and the best mobility.

Unrelated, it's rather amusing to see people whining about classes and getting things wrong in the process. Not even a complaint about Additional Bullet being the best option for melee classes in many situations back in VH.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 01:38 PM
Not even a complaint about Additional Bullet being the best option for melee classes in many situations back in VH.

I admit I completely forgot to mention that during the history lesson, and yes, I used a lamda jaried back then, and I wanted a gunbraver so bad as Fi/Hu.

Shadowth117
Oct 17, 2014, 01:39 PM
The was one class, one weapon.

Pre-nerf shunka didn't last 6 months, and even level-headed bravers wanted it nerfed.
Katanas didn't have hatou until the 3rd area of episode 2. Shunka, and 20 second invincibility didn't come until after that, which was all late last year.


That has nothing to do with whether these things were good or not. They were all out for a fairly decent chunk of time. But then, that wasn't exactly my point anyways.




It was the choice method to kill anything before ranged characters blew it up because of gap closing+damage properties; something unique to partisan for far too long, and pigeonholed tons S atk users into needing a lambda patty lumeria to keep up with things like zonde Fo/Fi in the one-shot department. Lightning Fo/Fi being massively popular back then.

So yes, part of the reason why it was so popular was because Fo/Fis made it a necessary evil. Using assbuster to get from spawn to spawn, and even kill something before it got zonde one shot by Fos was part of the reason people liked assbuster. I guess we have Fos to thank for 1 of the 3-4 reasons melee was pigeonholed into needing a partisan.



Because cluster and other techs never do or did that either. And even if those weren't around, you'd still be left with the fact that ass buster swept through everything without much effort which would have lead people to using it to one shot enemies anyways. So not seeing how that mattered.



Using it on small enemies is a waste since they die in two ticks, and you're stuck in the animation.

It's only good on stunnable bosses, which of course isn't every boss.


I don't believe I ever tried to claim you should be using it on smaller enemies. Which reminds me, I probably should have mentioned how kanran knocks down enemies AND has more aoe than most techs.

But that's offtopic; nothing is likely to work on everything in the game and it would be silly if it did. But on anything holding current can be worked around on its retarded. I recall people duoing falz elder not long after he came out in around 2 minutes flat. And since its become stronger than that. So yeah.



... and required kissing range, and around twice the PP cost of most techs. You need 135 PP to even have the privalage of using it three times consecutively. Now it's a bad PA who's damage does not justify the PP cost anymore instead of being a situational one with literally the worst range in the game.


Except if you had the skill needed to use it, I know there are so many things that don't have that requirement that you can forget sometimes, you could use sit in the air in something's face stunlocking it to death by repeatedly beating its face in all the while maintaining pp because you're able to get easy normals off at almost the same time while right next to it. Even without it you're fine, but with ketos proi going you'd have yourself even more of a joke assuming you were able to pull off the move correctly.



Forgot to mention how Hu went from being generally bad outside of assbuster and over end (those didn't come until VH) with a skill tree no one really cared about with its two non-tech JA bonuses, to being good as long as you didn't use their weapons until episode 3.


Entire melee weapon categories fell by the wayside.
Only time techs as a whole did was at the SH release.


You're so right. Because numerous light techs, ice techs, and wind techs have never sucked.




Didn't even mention the power of element conversion, which I consider a major part of the cause elysion, a wand, had to be nerfed; before element conversion, uncharged ilbarta from elysion could one-shot non-weak small mobs. But sure, let's just give them another 25% damage multipier when their new techs are this strong. :wacko:

Except that that was possible before element conversion? Elysion has always been very powerful if not the most available weapon.


Now in the end I'm not going to try to tell you the ep3 buffs were justified for force or ranger because they really weren't. But I do think you're heavily misunderstanding some things here.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 02:18 PM
Because cluster and other techs never do or did that either. And even if those weren't around, you'd still be left with the fact that ass buster swept through everything without much effort which would have lead people to using it to one shot enemies anyways. So not seeing how that mattered.

You're the one that brought up one specific PA on one specific weapon.

Since you missed the point, the popular options for non-ranged classes involved fast distance closing and damage (partisan being the only thing that did that for almost 2 years thanks to assbuster), or ranged attacks (addbullet) because enemies would generally die to Fos back then before a Fi/Hu even tries to use anything else.

Doesn't really need to be said that ranged generally had the advantage of engaging, and killing an enemy, and assbuster/addbullet was needed to even have a presence as Fi/Hu.


I don't believe I ever tried to claim you should be using it on smaller enemies.

You claimed it was broken.

I don't see PAs as niche as holding current with very specific viable uses as broken.

That's why I brought up how how it functions in mobbing (which is most of the game), and mentioned it does not work on bosses that do not have lengthy downtime phases.

'Broken' is when it's a one-move answer for almost anything in game, like pre-nerf shunka, or VH post buff/pre-nerf zonde, or WB which still fking exists for some reason.


Except if you had the skill needed to use it, I know there are so many things that don't have that requirement that you can forget sometimes, you could use sit in the air in something's face stunlocking it to death by repeatedly beating its face in all the while maintaining pp because you're able to get easy normals off at almost the same time while right next to it. Even without it you're fine, but with ketos proi going you'd have yourself even more of a joke assuming you were able to pull off the move correctly.

Did I say it was worthless? Did I say it was bad? I said it was situational. You know, niche, just like holding current. Try reading.

Also, it was the one thing knuckles were good for at the time.

Now it's a bad PA because of the lower damage, high PP cost, and other PAs being good opportunistic fast burst damage.


You're so right. Because numerous light techs, ice techs, and wind techs have never sucked.

Call me when the less than mediocre element techs are the only ones Fos can use.

That is not the same as "95% of X class is only good for their skill tree".

Why did most Fi sub Hu? No other class gave any striking multipliers at the time, and assault buster. That was pretty much it. Why did maidoll make those comics parodying Hus until now? Because 'generally ineffective/impractical' is a statement that applied to 90% of what Hu weapons could do at the time.


Except that that was possible before element conversion?

That's the point I was making. They got more power when they didn't need it.

Its why I'm believe in elysion's latent being a main class only skill for Te. Element conversion is too strong to be allowed to mix with ely's potential.

Aine
Oct 17, 2014, 02:26 PM
It's still entertaining to watch the developers cock up balance at every turn, but to be honest I don't care anymore, I'll just play whatever is best. I play fire Force now in TD and I'll play Bouncer in Ultimate or whatever's broken at the time. And that's fine.

gigawuts
Oct 17, 2014, 02:37 PM
It's still entertaining to watch the developers cock up balance at every turn, but to be honest I don't care anymore, I'll just play whatever is best. I play fire Force now in TD and I'll play Bouncer in Ultimate or whatever's broken at the time. And that's fine.

This is what ultimately must be done in this game to retain peace of mind, and I'm fairly certain it's the developers' intent that this is what players do anyway.

Everyone who careers as a specific class gets a dose of the limelight so they don't get too disenfranchised, and everyone who chases the best meta-whatever has to constantly follow the rotation around and around so they don't get too stagnant and too bored.

It's bad design IMO because better design would make everything fun and viable, but this is definitely effort-effective (like cost-effective, but with effort).

Xaeris
Oct 17, 2014, 02:42 PM
I'll wait and see how this actually works out before I go calling melee supremacy. We all already know that math isn't Sega's forte. I wouldn't even be a little bit surprised if it turned out Sega thinks they set up the numbers to give melee the advantage, but neglect that Force and Ranger still nuke everything to ashes. For evidence, just look at the recent Gunner changes. They thought their changes worked out to be a buff, only to be surprised that everyone was telling them they're an overall nerf.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 02:52 PM
Offtopic, but I actually thought of a way the attack on titan boss wouldn't be 'WB or abandon' like luther without needing to nerf WB and rebalance HP;

If the boss was comprised of entirely fragile breakable parts being the only way to damage him, that turn to extremely damage resistant/immune spots when destroyed, instead of having a giant 'hit me here!' core all fight, it really wouldn't matter if you did or didn't have WB. Overall kill speed wouldn't change much.

Hexxy
Oct 17, 2014, 03:01 PM
Offtopic, but I actually thought of a way the attack on titan boss wouldn't be 'WB or abandon' like luther without needing to nerf WB and rebalance HP;

If the boss was comprised of entirely fragile breakable parts being the only way to damage him, that turn to extremely damage resistant/immune spots when destroyed, instead of having a giant 'hit me here!' core all fight, it really wouldn't matter if you did or didn't have WB. Overall kill speed wouldn't change much.

It would but you know it's going to be your generic "break this for 2x and then wb for lulz" type of fight.

Xaeris
Oct 17, 2014, 03:04 PM
Don't forget, "inflict x status for express mode." My money is on freeze.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 03:20 PM
It would but you know it's going to be your generic "break this for 2x and then wb for lulz" type of fight.

Yeah, i know -_-

EvilMag
Oct 17, 2014, 03:30 PM
I also wonder if there gonna raise the dex on the enemies by a lot so crafted weapons will go back to being shitty again. It just seems odd that they made crafted weapons almost as viable as our current rares and yet they are a lot easier to get.

Skyly
Oct 17, 2014, 03:33 PM
Hmm.. So how useful will Elder Pain be in UQs?

Shadowth117
Oct 17, 2014, 03:35 PM
You're the one that brought up one specific PA on one specific weapon.

Since you missed the point, the popular options for non-ranged classes involved fast distance closing and damage (partisan being the only thing that did that for almost 2 years thanks to assbuster), or ranged attacks (addbullet) because enemies would generally die to Fos back then before a Fi/Hu even tries to use anything else.

Doesn't really need to be said that ranged generally had the advantage of engaging, and killing an enemy, and assbuster/addbullet was needed to even have a presence as Fi/Hu.


Isn't that to be expected though honestly with how gameplay has progressed? I mean really. As I said, enemies in this don't have much health so naturally gap closers and ranged attacks are some of the best options. I would actually say probably the bigger problem would be that most melee classes haven't had great aoe until kanran came along. And of course, the fact that zondeel can draw in almost everything in the game which I still find quite ridiculous.



You claimed it was broken.

I don't see PAs as niche as holding current with very specific viable uses as broken.

That's why I brought up how how it functions in mobbing (which is most of the game), and mentioned it does not work on bosses that do not have lengthy downtime phases.

'Broken' is when it's a one-move answer for almost anything in game, like pre-nerf shunka, or VH post buff/pre-nerf zonde, or WB which still fking exists for some reason.


I don't see how you're getting that definition, but that's fine I'll clarify: the definition of broken in the sense I used it meant that holding current was abnormally powerful for the situations it could be used in. Which lets be honest. There are many bosses in this game and they are fought very often. I don't think that's at all niche, even if its not to be used on everything possible, but that's just me. Illmegid is also something I'd consider broken and, while stupid people did at times, it really should never have been used on bosses ever. And don't tell me that there's only a few bosses you can make use of holding current on because there are MANY decent windows of opportunity to make use of on almost every one of them in the game.

Dunno what's wrong with saying something is "broken" in the context of a particularly large area of the game.



Did I say it was worthless? Did I say it was bad? I said it was situational. You know, niche, just like holding current. Try reading.

Also, it was the one thing knuckles were good for at the time.

Now it's a bad PA because of the lower damage, high PP cost, and other PAs being good opportunistic fast burst damage.


That was the implication I got from "kissing range". But then generally when you're fighting a boss you can easily make that range and maintain it. And as I said, this game has a lot of boss killing in it. Yes its bad now of course.



Call me when the less than mediocre element techs are the only ones Fos can use.

That is not the same as "95% of X class is only good for their skill tree".

Why did most Fi sub Hu? No other class gave any striking multipliers at the time, and assault buster. That was pretty much it. Why did maidoll make those comics parodying Hus until now? Because 'generally ineffective/impractical' is a statement that applied to 90% of what Hu weapons could do at the time.


Well if you want to put it that way, each element is pretty much another "weapon" if you want to think of it that way. Certainly by the number of them for each element. Not to mention each element pretty much requires its own dedicated build for its full potential and could STILL be completely awful.

And so really, there was quite a bit of fo's potential things that weren't usable although obviously fire and lightning for a long time stood out as actually worth using. Depending on the time frame, dark too. You could throw base zan in there, but its kind of an outlier. This definitely isn't quite near hunter, but even at present its kind of disappointing how little we see elements used in full compared to past games.




That's the point I was making. They got more power when they didn't need it.

Its why I'm believe in elysion's latent being a main class only skill for Te. Element conversion is too strong to be allowed to mix with ely's potential.

I actually do agree with that.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 17, 2014, 03:44 PM
I just want to say, because nobody else has, that Assault Buster was never necessary because of other classes. Assault Buster was flat out one of the best melee PAs in VH. It was so good, Fo/Hu was the best way to go in some TAs, and that had the absolute weakest Assault Buster in the game at the time. If you subbed Hunter, you were stupid not to want to use Assault Buster.

In that sense, complaining about being "forced" to use Partisans because of other classes is flat out wrong. Everyone I knew playing Ra/Hu used Partisans for Assault Buster. I played Te/Hu for a bit and used Partisans for Assault Buster. I don't remember if Gu/Hu was a thing back then, but Partisans for Assault Buster was still a thing even with SH, just less effective.

ShinMaruku
Oct 17, 2014, 03:49 PM
Forces have been the stuff of legends for as long as I can remember.

They were shit in psu. I'll give them that. :P

Xaelouse
Oct 17, 2014, 03:53 PM
Hmm.. So how useful will Elder Pain be in UQs?

If you craft it to ex lvl.8 or more and have enough dex, go for it.
Just know you'll be doing 20% less damage than crafted♂ikutachi

Vintasticvin
Oct 17, 2014, 04:03 PM
They were shit in psu. I'll give them that. :P

Really? They felt pretty good comfy til you run out of Pp refills.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 17, 2014, 04:22 PM
I just want to say, because nobody else has, that Assault Buster was never necessary because of other classes. Assault Buster was flat out one of the best melee PAs in VH. It was so good, Fo/Hu was the best way to go in some TAs, and that had the absolute weakest Assault Buster in the game at the time. If you subbed Hunter, you were stupid not to want to use Assault Buster.

In that sense, complaining about being "forced" to use Partisans because of other classes is flat out wrong.

I didn't say it was the only reason.

I said it was one of the reasons, which it is.

Was it a good way to keep pace in this infinite arms race of a game? Hell yeah.

Meta made up of other classes' fast one-shots? Respond with your own! Assbuster!

Shadowth117
Oct 17, 2014, 04:28 PM
Really? They felt pretty good comfy til you run out of Pp refills.

I have a feeling he was being a smartass and referring to the class "Force" in PSU. So technically he'd be right. But yeah Masterforce and Fortetecher towards the end when I played it were pretty nice.

Laxedrane
Oct 17, 2014, 05:20 PM
I have a feeling he was being a smartass and referring to the class "Force" in PSU. So technically he'd be right. But yeah Masterforce and Fortetecher towards the end when I played it were pretty nice.

I don't know about JP PSU but I know towards the end of 360 psu. Aside a handful of situations Techs were just not as good as the competition. They weren't shit by any stretch of the imagination but they were just slow and had a lot of stupid restrictions. Especially when comparing how many photon arts could hit multiple targets on a boss verse how techs NEVER could.

Omega-z
Oct 17, 2014, 05:54 PM
^ Yeah Tech type classes in JP PSU got really good at the end for the last 2 1/2 years. And most of the handheld's they were good for the most part too especially PSP2i. So they went from Ok -> Bad -> Good -> Godly in PSU. Just that 360 was stuck in between the Bad -> Good part of it's lifetime.

ShinMaruku
Oct 17, 2014, 06:18 PM
I left midway into PSU and at that time they were shit. If it changed good to hear. But it took years to fix but that's Sonic team being shit and over worked.

Selphea
Oct 17, 2014, 07:02 PM
Wait, so if Ranged damage is going to get resisted more, what's going to happen to Ranged types that only work in melee? Gunner is going to get a third straight nerf in a row since the start of Ep3? :/

And how about ranged classes based on striking damage like Bouncer?

Walkure
Oct 17, 2014, 07:14 PM
Wait, so if Ranged damage is going to get resisted more, what's going to happen to Ranged types that only work in melee? Gunner is going to get a third straight nerf in a row since the start of Ep3? :/

And how about ranged classes based on striking damage like Bouncer?
Bouncer deals damage based on striking hitzone multipliers, so Bouncer should be fine? Same with Techer.

Poor gunner getting the shit end of the stick again.

Freshellent
Oct 17, 2014, 07:17 PM
Just like old times. Bring back jarba/bees resistance.

I snorted a little, haha.

Selphea
Oct 17, 2014, 07:44 PM
Bouncer deals damage based on striking hitzone multipliers, so Bouncer should be fine? Same with Techer.

Poor gunner getting the shit end of the stick again.

Yea but I mean are they going to acknowledge that many striking PAs/skills like Over End, Sacred Skewer and PB fever aren't necessarily close range, and many ranged PAs like Satellite Aim and Reverse Tap aren't necessarily long range?

When literally translated, the term they used was "close range classes" which may not mean striking damage classes.

Sandmind
Oct 17, 2014, 08:16 PM
Let's take this down a new road, what if mob are range/tech happy when simply not right next to them, where they would start to melee with the occasionnal range/tech and be easier to deal with (outside of boss doing whatever the hell they want).

I used to play an mmorpg where 95% of mob/boss with both melee and spellcasting would spam their spells if not in melee range instead of chasing you down in melee.

Rien
Oct 17, 2014, 08:33 PM
I think it comes in two forms:

1. Enemies will chase you down extremely fast, even faster than in SH. SH was really a test of mob gap closing AI.

2. Enemies will have sped-up ranged attacks, possibly now with multi-hit ranged attacks. They most likely chase slower or simply don't stand as close to the player when they initiate their attack animations.

infiniteeverlasting
Oct 17, 2014, 09:34 PM
bravers gonna be on top againnnnnnn >:D

LonelyGaruga
Oct 17, 2014, 09:52 PM
I didn't say it was the only reason.

I said it was one of the reasons, which it is.

Was it a good way to keep pace in this infinite arms race of a game? Hell yeah.

Meta made up of other classes' fast one-shots? Respond with your own! Assbuster!

Well then your complaint has no merit because you would use it even if the other classes weren't one-shotting thing at range. You were never forced to use Assault Buster because you would use it anyway.


Yea but I mean are they going to acknowledge that many striking PAs/skills like Over End, Sacred Skewer and PB fever aren't necessarily close range, and many ranged PAs like Satellite Aim and Reverse Tap aren't necessarily long range?

When literally translated, the term they used was "close range classes" which may not mean striking damage classes.

What I read was that all three attack resistances would be strengthened, and then the stuff about close ranged classes. Hell, that's exactly what the OP said.

Most likely, it's going to be that the AI will emphasize close range combat. Not stats. So Gunner should be fine.

obsexed
Oct 17, 2014, 09:58 PM
bravers gonna be on top againnnnnnn >:D

not quite yet, we need PA crafting to be implemented(soon maybe? hopefully) then braver can probably be top again, gotta get that hatou and shunka damage bonus along with fi/br limit break.. bruh muh damage will be insane.

Selphea
Oct 17, 2014, 11:19 PM
Well then your complaint has no merit because you would use it even if the other classes weren't one-shotting thing at range. You were never forced to use Assault Buster because you would use it anyway.

What I read was that all three attack resistances would be strengthened, and then the stuff about close ranged classes. Hell, that's exactly what the OP said.

Most likely, it's going to be that the AI will emphasize close range combat. Not stats. So Gunner should be fine, you can stop whining about it.

I don't think questioning the semantics of their message constitutes "whining". Close-range, or melee classes as the OP translated it, can be interpreted as literally using melee attacks or using melee weapons but not necessarily melee attacks.

Even in this thread there seems to be no consensus on whether they mean melee weapon users or close-range PA users, although I find it strange that you're singling me out when others have a made similar interpretation.

Sanguine2009
Oct 18, 2014, 12:27 AM
i hope so, techer master race!

LonelyGaruga
Oct 18, 2014, 12:27 AM
@Selphia: You were talking about Gunner possibly getting a third nerf in a row, which looked like whining to me.

I didn't really see anyone else asking about striking attacks specifically either, just talking about classes that use striking weapons. What was stated was specifically about classes that work at close range. Any other interpretation of what that constitutes is simply wrong. If there are other people that thought close range = striking, then they're wrong to do so.

Selphea
Oct 18, 2014, 01:09 AM
I didn't really see anyone else asking about striking attacks specifically either.

Check Post #7 and Post #11 from the first two pages alone. I don't really feel like going past the first 2 pages.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 18, 2014, 02:37 AM
OK...the interpretations from those posts are inaccurate. Like I said they would be.

I'm not even trying to single you out or anything, you were simply asking instead of assuming. That's actually a good thing. Only thing I took issue with was the Gunner stuff, and honestly, there's been plenty of whining in this thread as is. Sega is trying to balance Gunner. They're not done working on it yet. It's way too early to be worried about it when they aren't done working on it. They'll mess around, and mess around, and make it worse or better to varying degrees until people say "OK, this is good now". Any nerfs that might happen until then are not going to be long-term. Some of the nerfs Gunner's had now might not be long-term. Don't worry about it until they're done.

isCasted
Oct 18, 2014, 03:30 AM
IIRC, gigawuts proposed adding "elemental resist ignoration" skill to Techer's when level cap raises Ultimate. Based on that, I propose "Zero Range Resist Ignoration" for Gunner. Not only it will help Gunners to not get even worse than they are right now - it might become viable to use as subclass for Ranger and Braver.

Maenara
Oct 18, 2014, 03:41 AM
Gunner doesn't have enough multipliers to be viable as a subclass.

Kondibon
Oct 18, 2014, 04:57 AM
Deer segu,

pls ZRA for all damage, an hitime chainf for all wepon.

thnx u,
Kondibon

Aine
Oct 18, 2014, 05:48 AM
You know how when you fail a stage order in XQs and the enemies in the next stage get a huge resistance increase that cuts your damage to 1/10 and it takes half an hour to clear? Yeah that's what Ultimate is going to be like for ranged.

gigawuts
Oct 18, 2014, 06:06 AM
You know how when you fail a stage order in XQs and the enemies in the next stage get a huge resistance increase that cuts your damage to 1/10 and it takes half an hour to clear? Yeah that's what Ultimate is going to be like for ranged.

pls do not

- melee main



But seriously, just flat damage resistances is such a bad way to do this. Some skills need to be reworked first, and then maybe it could work.

The first thing that has to change is Weak Hit Advance should always work on an enemy's face or weak point, instead of ONLY on things taking more than 1x damage...fucking micdas.

I still feel heads should only be 25-50% weakpoints and Weak Hit Advance should just have a bigger bonus for rifles, and everything else should have more base damage. Mechguns and launchers should definitely be bodyshotting harder than they are, at least for certain attacks. (edit: or they could tie headshot damage mods to weapon types like they should have on day 1)

I say these things as someone who plays these classes, just not as a preferred class like other people do. Also I think I'm pretty bad at ranger now since it's been a long time and I'm, well, bad at it.

Gama
Oct 18, 2014, 06:17 AM
pls do not

- melee main



But seriously, just flat damage resistances is such a bad way to do this. Some skills need to be reworked first, and then maybe it could work.

The first thing that has to change is Weak Hit Advance should always work on an enemy's face or weak point, instead of ONLY on things taking more than 1x damage...fucking micdas.

I still feel heads should only be 25-50% weakpoints and Weak Hit Advance should just have a bigger bonus for rifles, and everything else should have more base damage. Mechguns and launchers should definitely be bodyshotting harder than they are, at least for certain attacks. (edit: or they could tie headshot damage mods to weapon types like they should have on day 1)

I say these things as someone who plays these classes, just not as a preferred class like other people do. Also I think I'm pretty bad at ranger now since it's been a long time and I'm, well, bad at it.

having diferent weapons have diferent multiplyers based on where they hit sounds interesting.

there should be an npc that would scream headshot for rifles, "lisa"

Cyhiwraith
Oct 19, 2014, 09:40 AM
I have the solution, don't change anything for anyone (aside from gu who does need a buff) Just remove weak bullet (or make it not game breaking, this game is 100% impossible to balance with something like that) from the game and give mobs 50x hp. No one will come close to one shoting and melee can get there with more than enough time. Problem solved.

Seems easy enough to me! Make foe HP based on people too, if you got 1 person, 100% hp, 4 people, 400%. Something, to make mobs not get one shot and not make partys the only way to play, idk. Lots of games do this kind of stuff with the HP.

Rien
Oct 19, 2014, 10:36 AM
I have the solution, don't change anything for anyone (aside from gu who does need a buff) Just remove weak bullet (or make it not game breaking, this game is 100% impossible to balance with something like that) from the game and give mobs 50x hp. No one will come close to one shoting and melee can get there with more than enough time. Problem solved.

Seems easy enough to me! Make foe HP based on people too, if you got 1 person, 100% hp, 4 people, 400%. Something, to make mobs not get one shot and not make partys the only way to play, idk. Lots of games do this kind of stuff with the HP.

Then raid-type bosses (Dark Falzes) will become so much harder to kill it becomes laughable.

STNFCST
Oct 19, 2014, 10:49 AM
Not sure if serious or not. But Force has been always a field day on PSO2, there is never a shortstick everywhere.

This game deserved to called Phantasy Force Online 2, now you mention "Hunter" deal with it.

Vetur
Oct 19, 2014, 10:52 AM
They could just buff melee, couldn't they?
I don't see a point to making ranged classes do low damage when they already have sacrificed poor defenses/HP(compared with hunters) in return for that offensive power...

infiniteeverlasting
Oct 19, 2014, 10:52 AM
deal with it.

no you

STNFCST
Oct 19, 2014, 11:01 AM
no you

Wat?

I am glad that I don't have to deal with a arrogant rebel manchild like you who don't provide argument at all.

Cyhiwraith
Oct 19, 2014, 11:05 AM
Then raid-type bosses (Dark Falzes) will become so much harder to kill it becomes laughable.

It doesn't have to be those exact numbers, but currently when luther dies in 2 min it's not really fun imo. It doesn't even feel like a boss. One of the other issues is just mostly mobs getting 1 shot. I don't think anything should get one shot, unless maybe you're solo or something. They could do lots of things, even blink strikes would be nice, kinda like katana combat but more range to it. Mobs getting one shot is really the biggest issue I feel like though.

And by one shot I mean any class, no one should kill them that fast. Bosses die at the speed normal mobs should, bosses feel like fodder mobs do in other games.

Keilyn
Oct 19, 2014, 11:07 AM
Time to have fun Wand-Wacking mobs on ultimate ^_^

What I've learned through playing this series of games is the following:

Small Enemies = Sneeze on them
Medium Enemies = Proc something on them while sneezing on small enemies...

Bosses = Only thing to ever worry about for like the first week until we all discover the super easy button on killing bosses.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

....oh don't forget....all of this Difficulty will be countered by all the new 12 - 15* gear in terms of weapons, armors and shitty potentials. ;P

LonelyGaruga
Oct 19, 2014, 12:39 PM
It doesn't have to be those exact numbers, but currently when luther dies in 2 min it's not really fun imo. It doesn't even feel like a boss. One of the other issues is just mostly mobs getting 1 shot. I don't think anything should get one shot, unless maybe you're solo or something. They could do lots of things, even blink strikes would be nice, kinda like katana combat but more range to it. Mobs getting one shot is really the biggest issue I feel like though.

And by one shot I mean any class, no one should kill them that fast. Bosses die at the speed normal mobs should, bosses feel like fodder mobs do in other games.

With the way the game is right now, I fully believe this is all intentional. I don't personally like that bosses are so easy to fight right now, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing that needs to be fixed.

Luther is much more durable than a two minute fight by the way, and titled bosses actually do live for a while. Of course, the issue with the latter is that titled bosses aren't nearly as common enough as they should be. Titled bosses should be the norm for EQs and MPAs, really.

Rain Walker
Oct 19, 2014, 02:19 PM
Time to have fun Wand-Wacking mobs on ultimate ^_^

What I've learned through playing this series of games is the following:

Small Enemies = Sneeze on them
Medium Enemies = Proc something on them while sneezing on small enemies...

Bosses = Only thing to ever worry about for like the first week until we all discover the super easy button on killing bosses.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.



And yet people are still horrible in it :-?

Scyris
Oct 19, 2014, 04:08 PM
I don't know about JP PSU but I know towards the end of 360 psu. Aside a handful of situations Techs were just not as good as the competition. They weren't shit by any stretch of the imagination but they were just slow and had a lot of stupid restrictions. Especially when comparing how many photon arts could hit multiple targets on a boss verse how techs NEVER could.

Nevermind the fact that by the time you fire that 2nd tech, I have already done a entire melee pa combo that has done about 10 times the damage in the same time period.

UnLucky
Oct 19, 2014, 08:02 PM
I have the solution, don't change anything for anyone (aside from gu who does need a buff) Just remove weak bullet (or make it not game breaking, this game is 100% impossible to balance with something like that) from the game and give mobs 50x hp. No one will come close to one shoting and melee can get there with more than enough time. Problem solved.

Seems easy enough to me! Make foe HP based on people too, if you got 1 person, 100% hp, 4 people, 400%. Something, to make mobs not get one shot and not make partys the only way to play, idk. Lots of games do this kind of stuff with the HP.
If mobs flinch every time you hit them, having 50x HP would be a snoozefest.

If they have permanent superarmor, melee will eat every single attack while ranged classes can kite all day long.

And that's a big problem that will continue into Ultimate. Ranged attacks still hit at point blank. Melee attacks can't hit at a distance. And the first person to run in will get the aggro on both of those things.

GoldenFalcon
Oct 19, 2014, 08:35 PM
Nevermind the fact that by the time you fire that 2nd tech, I have already done a entire melee pa combo that has done about 10 times the damage in the same time period.
You never saw Diga Meteor did you

gigawuts
Oct 19, 2014, 08:39 PM
If mobs flinch every time you hit them, having 50x HP would be a snoozefest.

If they have permanent superarmor, melee will eat every single attack while ranged classes can kite all day long.

And that's a big problem that will continue into Ultimate. Ranged attacks still hit at point blank. Melee attacks can't hit at a distance. And the first person to run in will get the aggro on both of those things.

Yeah, which is why some things need to change for there to be balance (and I don't expect change).

Moderation is key here. Some flinch is good, and some lift is good. On every hit? Eh. There are a ton of ways to resolve these problems, but no single tweak can really "fix" the game in its current state.

So, some bandaid fixes I think could help (not what I actually want, but easy enough to implement)...
1. No more knockdown/lift from any range attacks, enemies stand up from knockdown much faster (mainly to address razan)
2. An enemy is only flinched by the first normal attack you hit it with, after that flinch is exclusive to PAs until you stop attacking (No normal attack comboing)
3. Players gain invuln frames while tumbling after being knocked into the air, and also when stumbling/flinching
4. Enemies have 10x hp, deal 25% damage, attack more frequently but not necessarily more aggressively (meaning they won't constantly and always get in your face, but they will use attacks either outside of their range or on a different target within an attack's range instead of maintaining aggro on 100% the same guy)

That's just a lazy bandaid start that would help. After that you get into class-specific changes and that is a whole different can of worms because you need to address what classes were meant to do, what they actually do, and if either of those things are even good (fun, logical, and productive to the game)... then you have to consider them relative to other classes, and determine if the roles are even really compatible. Having 8 classes in this game is a mistake IMO.

Walkure
Oct 19, 2014, 09:51 PM
Giving mobs an order of magnitude (or more) HP just favors grouping up sufficiently large amounts of them and using Wand Gear's quadratic scaling to kill them all in one smack anyways. Or just Chaos Riser infinite combos. They both have damage that will outscale most other weapons/classes after a large amount of mobs grouped up, where Wand Gear has obviously the most damage but Chaos Riser has utility of knocking everything down repeatedly while grouping them up.

Grats, now instead of two classes (RA and FO) having an advantage on mobbing compared to other classes, two classes (TE and FI) have an advantage on mobbing.

gigawuts
Oct 19, 2014, 09:58 PM
Giving mobs an order of magnitude (or more) HP just favors grouping up sufficiently large amounts of them and using Wand Gear's quadratic scaling to kill them all in one smack anyways. Or just Chaos Riser infinite combos. They both have damage that will outscale most other weapons/classes after a large amount of mobs grouped up, where Wand Gear has obviously the most damage but Chaos Riser has utility of knocking everything down repeatedly while grouping them up.

Grats, now instead of two classes (RA and FO) having an advantage on mobbing compared to other classes, two classes (TE and FI) have an advantage on mobbing.

Oh right, I forgot to say vacuum moves need to go away for forever+1 day.

And I really dislike quadratic and/or exponential figures in my damage formulas.

Rakurai
Oct 19, 2014, 10:06 PM
3. Players gain invuln frames while tumbling after being knocked into the air, and also when stumbling/flinching

This needs to happen so much.

Didn't every other past PSO have generous invicibility frames specifically to prevent one-hit death scenarios when fighting multiple enemies?

gigawuts
Oct 19, 2014, 10:09 PM
This needs to happen so much.

Didn't every other past PSO have generous invicibility frames specifically to prevent one-hit death scenarios when fighting multiple enemies?

PSO1 didn't until either v2 or ep 2.

It's just one of many lessons Sega has learned in previous PS titles, and promptly unlearns with each new PS title.

Sp-24
Oct 20, 2014, 12:04 AM
This needs to happen so much.

Didn't every other past PSO have generous invicibility frames specifically to prevent one-hit death scenarios when fighting multiple enemies?
Scape Dolls won't just sell themselves, you know?

qoxolg
Oct 20, 2014, 12:14 AM
This needs to happen so much.

Didn't every other past PSO have generous invicibility frames specifically to prevent one-hit death scenarios when fighting multiple enemies?

PSO? Yes, up until VH it did. In Ultimate you either wanted to get knocked down, or have so much defense you could (almost) nullify the damage. Anything in between resulted in getting two-shot by two enemies hitting you at the same time. In PSO it was flinch or be flinched. Every enemy had a certain attack interval you could interrupt by flinching at the right time. This was one of the reasons the God/Speed units were so great. They gave you more flexibility to time flinches.

Rien
Oct 20, 2014, 02:20 AM
It doesn't have to be those exact numbers, but currently when luther dies in 2 min it's not really fun imo. It doesn't even feel like a boss. One of the other issues is just mostly mobs getting 1 shot. I don't think anything should get one shot, unless maybe you're solo or something. They could do lots of things, even blink strikes would be nice, kinda like katana combat but more range to it. Mobs getting one shot is really the biggest issue I feel like though.

And by one shot I mean any class, no one should kill them that fast. Bosses die at the speed normal mobs should, bosses feel like fodder mobs do in other games.

2 minutes?

Any MPA I go to takes longer than 10!

Shadowth117
Oct 20, 2014, 03:28 AM
2 minutes?

Any MPA I go to takes longer than 10!

With good people who know what to do, yeah you can take him down that fast. Luther has a lot of health and is the most formidable boss we have right now, but he definitely doesn't last with some of the powerful abilities we have now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x8er9fLc7I

Rien
Oct 20, 2014, 03:47 AM
>Fake

oh.

I was talking about the real one.

Selphea
Oct 20, 2014, 07:46 AM
Real one soloed in 5 minutes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvkbYR6UGo

Xaelouse
Oct 20, 2014, 08:00 AM
what do SH luther videos have to do with Ultimate...
Surely I wouldn't see a FO/GU there, since he'd be kicked

Raujinn
Oct 20, 2014, 09:45 AM
That's the Arks GP one....

Rehal
Oct 20, 2014, 09:51 AM
Real one soloed in 5 minutes


cg you managed to solo 8% hp of real luther in 5 minutes

Rien
Oct 20, 2014, 09:56 AM
Real one soloed in 5 minutes


The timer counts upwards which indicates it's the arks GP one.

The arks GP one has severely nerfed hp (as said above, it's like 8 or 10% of his actual hp)

Selphea
Oct 20, 2014, 10:13 AM
cg you managed to solo 8% hp of real luther in 5 minutes

That's not me actually, but that does explain his low health :o!

Achelousaurus
Oct 20, 2014, 10:20 AM
So basically, in UQ, enemies will have higher resistance to strike/shoot/tech damages BUT melees will have a better time than the rest?

Better start hording fodders, I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrMawW5J6NU

Step isn't perfect though. The invincibility doesn't last long enough (even with max Step Advance) and some boss attacks like Banther's claw swipes or pounce cannot be dodge with one step when you are too close (or you need absolutely perfect timing).
Still, I feel safest as braver and after that as melee in general.

Also, Rifle is ok because it's fast but launcher feels like importing your old PS1 ranger with old game mechanics and all into this game.
But not even having a shot...

And KC is nice but in the grand scheme of things it's not nearly as op as WB.
WB ends the boss in half the time KC even lasts.
And unless it's with WB and shifta and a weakspot, 60-80k is about max you can get with Finish.



It's bad design IMO because better design would make everything fun and viable, but this is definitely effort-effective (like cost-effective, but with effort).
effort effective.
._.


Let's take this down a new road, what if mob are range/tech happy when simply not right next to them, where they would start to melee with the occasionnal range/tech and be easier to deal with (outside of boss doing whatever the hell they want).

I used to play an mmorpg where 95% of mob/boss with both melee and spellcasting would spam their spells if not in melee range instead of chasing you down in melee.
That's terrible.
Enemies don't spawn on top of you all the time. Or rather, only rarely.
So the instant enemies spawn they start spamming and melee gets the short end of the stick again cause you can barely get close enough and when you finally are, you are likely gonna need to heal.


If you craft it to ex lvl.8 or more and have enough dex, go for it.
Just know you'll be doing 20% less damage than crafted♂ikutachi
That weapon...I feel like no day goes by where I don't find 3 of it.

Also, speaking of raids...
Just watched ep 3 of Log Horizon 2. Raids that take a month. Please Sega, make it happen.
(you can go back and forth and take any breaks you want, it saves your progress).

Anyway, the best is to give dmg penalties for long range. Apparently it's already like this for launchers and rifle but not nearly enough.
Disallow sniping out of visual range cause at that distance dmg is about 0.1%.
Also yes, WB must go, no choice.
Instead give rangers more crown control like the grenades and more status effects that aren't silly bullets.
Turn it back into glorious utility class it was in PSO1 (where it had some serious killing speed, too).

Fixed.
Cause with all your ideas you still got the problem that a ranger / caster close to enemies will perform super poorly while having far lower survivability and reaction speed than melee classes.


Scape Dolls won't just sell themselves, you know?
Yeah.
The entire point of the game requiring so much more dodging than before and being so much less forgiving with taking hits (like mates taking forever and always getting you hit again) is so they can sell more scape dolls.
In PSO1 if you died during a boss fight you walked the walk fo shame, all the way back from the start of that level (unless you had a safety pipe) to the boss warp.
Then you challenged again but now you have to do the whole quest again and that can take a while for A / S rank.

Vintasticvin
Oct 20, 2014, 10:31 AM
Why so much hate towards Weak Bullet? Its a god send..

Achelousaurus
Oct 20, 2014, 10:34 AM
No, it's not.
It breaks the game and is 100% unnecessary.
No, killing bosses in 10 seconds or less is not a good thing cause all challenge and most fun are down the drain.
Not to mention it makes it impossible to balance the game for a company already having severe problems with balancing without it.

We can only hope that like Sroll JA boost it will get nerfed into oblivion.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 10:47 AM
Why so much hate towards Weak Bullet? Its a god send..

No, it's the godsend, and that's the whole problem.

Nothing else comes even close to Weak Bullet's effectiveness. If every class, or even half of the classes, had something like Weak Bullet there wouldn't be such a problem with class balance.

Also, there's the fact that it demolishes bosses and that's pretty bad for the game itself IMO. Yeah you can get loot faster, but when everything is a 10 second WB-fest shit gets boring fast.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 20, 2014, 11:49 AM
Step isn't perfect though. The invincibility doesn't last long enough (even with max Step Advance) and some boss attacks like Banther's claw swipes or pounce cannot be dodge with one step when you are too close (or you need absolutely perfect timing).

Are you running around with 10 SP in Step Advance? Because 1 SP has been enough to dodge everything I could want to, angry Banther claw swipes included. You are jump canceling Step to perform a second one, right?

NoiseHERO
Oct 20, 2014, 01:32 PM
Weak bullet is fiiiiiiiiiiiine...

Xaelouse
Oct 20, 2014, 01:43 PM
It's purpose was to make RA's modifiers easy to take advantage of. I wish it just stopped there.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 20, 2014, 02:21 PM
It's purpose was to make RA's modifiers easy to take advantage of. I wish it just stopped there.

Yeah... and now it's the entire reason Luther has the HP he does.

Most likely the coming titan will be the same; balanced around WB.

That fking skill is poison to the game as is.

Arksenth
Oct 20, 2014, 02:24 PM
Yeah... and now it's the entire reason Luther has the HP he does.

Most likely the coming titan will be the same; balanced around WB.

That fking skill is poison to the game as is.

They should make it so that the new titan can only be damaged by wand smacks while poisoned.

Cyron Tanryoku
Oct 20, 2014, 02:26 PM
No, it's not.
It breaks the game and is 100% unnecessary.
No, killing bosses in 10 seconds or less is not a good thing cause all challenge and most fun are down the drain.

What challenge? I won't say what fun
Like yeah sure this shit makes things quicker but thats a good thing tbh. I'd rather get rid of unchallenging, boring bosses faster than deal with them being long and drawn out

Also you guys acting like you can't kill these bosses in 10 seconds without it lol

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 02:35 PM
What challenge? I won't say what fun
Like yeah sure this shit makes things quicker but thats a good thing tbh. I'd rather get rid of unchallenging, boring bosses faster than deal with them being long and drawn out

Also you guys acting like you can't kill these bosses in 10 seconds without it lol

The problem is, first and foremost, that if you get into an MPA and nobody's ranger your typically best course of action is to drop, because halfway through the fight other people will realize it's taking longer than 5 minutes and start ditching one by one.

Should they? Should they not? That's not within the purvue of this discussion. What matters is what they do, and they do it because RA is the only class with anything like WB. That's a huge design flaw.

If every class had something like it (that didn't stack with the other class's stuff, so it's just the one 300% modifier and not a bunch of them combined) it wouldn't be a big deal at all; it would be the intended design of the game as a whole. Instead it's just in this ominous halfway grey area where one class makes everyone stupid OP, so content is balanced around it, and if you don't have that one class around shit takes way longer and everyone bails regardless of anything else.

That's pretty stupid, and it's Sega's fault. Players will do things like that in this situation. Sega knows it. It's Sega's responsibility to account for that.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 20, 2014, 02:37 PM
What challenge? I won't say what fun
Like yeah sure this shit makes things quicker but thats a good thing tbh. I'd rather get rid of unchallenging, boring bosses faster than deal with them being long and drawn out

I feel like I have to explain this to people way more than I should. My fault for assuming sense is common;

Luther takes 20+ minutes without WB

No more than 10 with it.

WB is the reason he has that HP in the first place. Not the other way around. No boss in this game until Luther made WB necessary, and even then, it's WB that made it necessary for Luther to have that much HP. I repeat; not the other way around! WB is spawning the content. WB is making bosses need more HP. It is poison that has already effected the game, and should just go away unless they intend to give every class a WB-equivalent, and increase every boss' HP.

People want to see WB gone, and bosses not have their HP balanced around its current presence anymore.

We'd like to see something like;

~13 minutes without WB

~10 minutes with WB

Cyron Tanryoku
Oct 20, 2014, 02:43 PM
Luther takes 20+ minutes without WB

No more than 10 with it.
That's the fault of the team behind the game, less than the WB itself. They should have designed it with regular play in mind, not WB.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 20, 2014, 02:49 PM
That's the fault of the team behind the game, less than the WB itself. For some odd reason they decided to focus on making his HP high because of WB.

Ultimately, keeping WB as and giving Luther that HP was their choice either way. Point is though, neither of those things should be happening because now it means if you don't have an RA somewhere, you get to spend up to 3 times as long doing the same content with absurd amounts of HP.

If they did cut his HP and left WB alone, WB will still disgustingly overpowered that makes one skill of one class a necessity. The standard would then devolve into 4 minute Luthers with WB, and 10 minutes without it, which is still a problem because then he'd be a joke, and people would still refuse to do him when it takes over twice as long.

WB just cannot exist in its current form because it's capable of turning 2x weakpoint damage to 5x (used to be 6x) for an entire MPA, and causing boss kills in ~1/3rd the time by itself. Nothing else comes close to that power in the game.

Renzix
Oct 20, 2014, 03:03 PM
I hate to tell you this, but a majority of the playerbase (same can also be said about PSO-World's playerbase in PSO2 as well,) suck at this game if it takes yall 20+ minutes without a Weak Bullet to kill Luther.

I've been in plenty of runs where Luther was easily killed in a little over 10 minutes, or some times even a little less, without Weak Bullet. Various teams that I was a part of also could even kill Luther fast without a Weak Bullet.

Hell, even Entro, one of the current Highlords in the MMO community, was livestreaming on Twitch every SH Luther attempt every time the EQ came up, with PUGs, never his Team-mates. Most of the time, there was no Ranger in his Party at all, and they still had the damage potential to take Luther down fast.


Point is, it all comes down to who you're partied with. If you're with a Pug, you should expect that a Kill might take longer, or that a WB may not even be possible in a party. If you're running it with a Team of people that you have played with, and are competent, you should EASILY be able to do Luther without a Weak Bullet.

It's not hard at all to ignore Weak Bullet. People only want it because they think it's okay for an incredibly Epic boss to get destroyed in less than 5 minutes, and every one has their head so far shoved up their ass, that they think their Time is more valuable than every one else's, and that Weak Bullet SHOULD be required.

It was a bad choice for SEGA to have included a skill like Weak Bullet to the game, because it takes the fun out of actually fighting the Bosses, and it turns into a bunch of idiots mindlessly attacking one specific spot just so they can kill some thing in 5 minutes, and then spend the rest of their time AFKing in the Lobby or their Room (which, news flash, most of the people who only want Fast Kills end up doing after an EQ anyway.)

I really hope the Skill itself is removed in the future. It'll just be funny to see how many EN Players complain and then quit the Game because of it, which would be fine by me. Rather have the bad people out so the people that actually take the time to get geared / skilled remain so, instead of being dragged down by others.

Cyhiwraith
Oct 20, 2014, 03:06 PM
I think what they WERE going to do with weakbullet sounded amazing, make it so you can lock onto it. Make it a weak point multiplier (as in, weak hit advance procs from it so like a 1.1x, but not a 2.55x multiplier). That would be great for bosses like zesh where nothing breakable is normally targetable. Make it 1/4 the CD and only load 1 at a time too, something. It's just retarded needing a class to be far more effective.

Even if Luther could be killed in 5 min w/o weak bullet, it'd be 2 with it give or take. Left alone it is 100% stupid, no matter how long or short a fight is without it. Even 30 sec fights still go 2.55x faster.

Cyron Tanryoku
Oct 20, 2014, 03:07 PM
Ultimately, keeping WB as and giving Luther that HP was their choice either way. Point is though, neither of those things should be happening because now it means if you don't have an RA somewhere, you get to spend up to 3 times as long doing the same content with absurd amounts of HP.
Yeah, and I'd blame the team behind designing the boss rather than the WB


If they did cut his HP and left WB alone, WB will still disgustingly overpowered that makes one skill of one class a necessity. The standard would then devolve into 4 minute Luthers with WB, and 10 minutes without it, which is still a problem because then he'd be a joke, and people would still refuse to do him when it takes over twice as long.
Either way the problem still isn't the Weak Bullet itself, it's the game. At one point the WB, while still useful, wasn't as useful as it is now. And that's due to EVERY CLASS getting absurdly stronger. There isn't anything you can do to weak bullet and its abilities that will make it a more fair skill. It's a damage modifier that puts weak spots on enemies. No matter what the damage is, it's higher than normal damage, there will always be an advantage so there is no point in complaining about it. Also Luther was already a joke, he'd just be a quicker joke.
Annnnd this is where my idea comes into play. Instead of messing with Weak Bullet, why not mess with how it interacts with the bosses instead? Maybe make it where it doesn't work on certain parts....likethebigopenweakspotthatwillmakeorbreak howlongthefighttakes. Why not make the bosses neat?


WB just cannot exist in its current form because it's capable of turning 2x weakpoint damage to 5x (used to be 6x) for an entire MPA, and causing boss kills in ~1/3rd the time by itself. Nothing else comes close to that power in the game.

The only way to fix WB is to remove WB which isn't going to happen so.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 03:07 PM
WB could easily be fixed by being reduced to +50%.

Solved.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 20, 2014, 03:11 PM
I hate to tell you this, but a majority of the playerbase (same can also be said about PSO-World's playerbase in PSO2 as well,) suck at this game if it takes yall 20+ minutes without a Weak Bullet to kill Luther.

I've been in plenty of runs where Luther was easily killed in a little over 10 minutes, or some times even a little less, without Weak Bullet. Various teams that I was a part of also could even kill Luther fast without a Weak Bullet.

Hell, even Entro, one of the current Highlords in the MMO community, was livestreaming on Twitch every SH Luther attempt every time the EQ came up, with PUGs, never his Team-mates. Most of the time, there was no Ranger in his Party at all, and they still had the damage potential to take Luther down fast.


Point is, it all comes down to who you're partied with. If you're with a Pug, you should expect that a Kill might take longer, or that a WB may not even be possible in a party. If you're running it with a Team of people that you have played with, and are competent, you should EASILY be able to do Luther without a Weak Bullet.

This actually isn't the point seeing as the kill time lengths I provided were examples to better state my point.




It was a bad choice for SEGA to have included a skill like Weak Bullet to the game, because it takes the fun out of actually fighting the Bosses, and it turns into a bunch of idiots mindlessly attacking one specific spot just so they can kill some thing in 5 minutes

This is.


WB could easily be fixed by being reduced to +50%.

Solved.

Was going to suggest 25% or 50% tops, but I just didn't bother editing to include another paragraph as to why and the effects.

Cyron Tanryoku
Oct 20, 2014, 03:16 PM
Ultimately, I'm just like, fuck it. There are people who like it and people who don't, the best yall can do is just group up in a way you find suitable to play. Don't like it? Party without it. I mean, yeah theres MPAs but MPAs never go the way you'd want regardless

Cyhiwraith
Oct 20, 2014, 03:31 PM
Ultimately, I'm just like, fuck it. There are people who like it and people who don't, the best yall can do is just group up in a way you find suitable to play. Don't like it? Party without it. I mean, yeah theres MPAs but MPAs never go the way you'd want regardless

I think there is people who hate WB and then there is people who like dress up with some easy gameplay and don't give a fuck about the gameplay, just dress up but do like to see SOME action, just make sure it's easy! Gotta see that new costume in combat! To be fair though, I do feel this 'game' to be more of a Phantasy Shop Online than a game sometimes. Dress up sim or whatever you wanna you wanna call it.

NoiseHERO
Oct 20, 2014, 03:40 PM
WB is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.

The real problem is that the combat is boring, why would I want 3x longer gameplay when the gameplay is mediocre.

Especially after the 50th-50,000th time you've killed any boss. <_>

Actually no, I say WB should be buffed.

Cyron Tanryoku
Oct 20, 2014, 03:41 PM
All classes and skills should be buffed

Especially melee

Just swing your weapon and every enemy on screen dies

GOTY

Cyhiwraith
Oct 20, 2014, 03:48 PM
WB is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.

The real problem is that the combat is boring, why would I want 3x longer gameplay when the gameplay is mediocre.

Especially after the 50th-50,000th time you've killed any boss. <_>

Actually no, I say WB should be buffed.


All classes and skills should be buffed

Especially melee

Just swing your weapon and every enemy on screen dies

GOTY

......... XD You guys are very supportive.

Walkure
Oct 20, 2014, 04:05 PM
Am I the only person that doesn't really care if there's no WB on Luther?

It's easy to beat the DPS check and break Luther's Clock without WB. It typically breaks first mirage, WB or no WB. After that, who cares?

Only problem is that at like <50% HP, people start dropping like flies for some reason. Like, seriously, how do people still die to time stop and the blade carousel. Also like a good 4-5 deaths every sword-disks->ball projectile sequence. I can still easily run out of moons even on a WB-fest luther.

Lumpen Thingy
Oct 20, 2014, 04:07 PM
people take 10 minutes without weak bullet to kill luther? what shit mpas have you guys been in?

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 04:18 PM
Ultimately, I'm just like, fuck it. There are people who like it and people who don't, the best yall can do is just group up in a way you find suitable to play. Don't like it? Party without it. I mean, yeah theres MPAs but MPAs never go the way you'd want regardless

You're pushing the topic of game design into the topic of gameplay, and they are not the same thing.

I'd prefer WB be nerfed into a skill more in-line with other skills in terms of total damage, yet still retain its support role.

You're acting like I'm refusing to even play the game and throwing a hissy fit because of it, and I'm not really sure why.

Evangelion X.XX
Oct 20, 2014, 04:20 PM
Also, there's the case of:

"Whaaa... ? This MPA doesn't have a WB-er? Welp, I'm out of here! *drops out of the MPA... and then half the MPA follows suit*"...

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 04:21 PM
Also, there's the case of:

"Whaaa... ? This MPA doesn't have WB-er? Welp, I'm out of here! *drops out of the MPA... and then half the MPA follows suit*"...

Like I said at the get - runs become problematic without WB, not because they would take that long but because people bail when they don't see ranger or when they think it's taking too long.

So, yes, a 6 man, no WB luther populated by people who pay so little attention that they don't realize 6 people left can take over 10 minutes. Weird right?

Walkure
Oct 20, 2014, 04:43 PM
I've seen that happen like once, and that was when the clock failed to break after three mirages, months ago.

Is it really that common in your MPAs?

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 20, 2014, 04:48 PM
You're pushing the topic of game design into the topic of gameplay, and they are not the same thing.

Starting to see that trying to get players to see things from the design PoV rather than gameplay is one of the reasons dev teams don't communicate as often on official forums as much as those very same players think they should.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 05:32 PM
I've seen that happen like once, and that was when the clock failed to break after three mirages, months ago.

Is it really that common in your MPAs?

I stopped running luther entirely because it was so common.

So yes.

I can recall 6 separate incidents off the top of my head.

Granted, I also used to run 3 luthers each time he showed up, so that might have influenced it. It was usually in the first 2 runs, by the third everyone was there to actually do the run and WB or not we'd power through it pretty quickly (always faster than the first run, even if it had WB).

By now I'm sure it's less common, but I also feel no real drive to bother with luther.

Starting to see that trying to get players to see things from the design PoV rather than gameplay is one of the reasons dev teams don't communicate as often on official forums as much as those very same players think they should.

Well, a lot of people attack the game itself, which would warrant that kind of response. I think discussing the theory itself, as a concept or abstract, is unusual enough that it's understandable when people don't realize that's what's going on. Well, it's not unusual, it's just never been super common in PS.

50% of my game entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game itself. I just really like crunching numbers and concept refining, and games give me material for that.

Maenara
Oct 20, 2014, 05:37 PM
WB is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.

The real problem is that the combat is boring, why would I want 3x longer gameplay when the gameplay is mediocre.

Especially after the 50th-50,000th time you've killed any boss. <_>

Actually no, I say WB should be buffed.

The obvious solution is to make it very hard to kill any boss so it's an achievement every single time.

Walkure
Oct 20, 2014, 05:50 PM
I stopped running luther entirely because it was so common.

So yes.

I can recall 6 separate incidents off the top of my head.

Granted, I also used to run 3 luthers each time he showed up, so that might have influenced it. It was usually in the first 2 runs, by the third everyone was there to actually do the run and WB or not we'd power through it pretty quickly (always faster than the first run, even if it had WB).

By now I'm sure it's less common, but I also feel no real drive to bother with luther.Well, that sucks a lot then.

Maybe it's because I don't bother with multicharacters on Falz runs; I like staying in full blocks. Might also be because of that I miss the garbage pail runs. I can imagine that people running their off-main, gimmick specs, and/or undergeared alts would quickly make for painful runs.


Well, a lot of people attack the game itself, which would warrant that kind of response. I think discussing the theory itself, as a concept or abstract, is unusual enough that it's understandable when people don't realize that's what's going on. Well, it's not unusual, it's just never been super common in PS.

50% of my game entertainment has nothing to do with playing the game itself. I just really like crunching numbers and concept refining, and games give me material for that.I enjoy problem solving and testing things, but I don't really care to go re-hash the topic of WB being overpowered and unbalanced from a design perspective for the hundredth time.

Rakurai
Oct 20, 2014, 05:55 PM
Making the UQ enemies significantly more durable is a start, but they'd also need frequent or permanent stagger resistance if they want them to be challenging.

I just hope it's not going to be a OHKO/stagger lock fest for people that aren't using survival skills.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 20, 2014, 06:02 PM
The obvious solution is to make it very hard to kill any boss so it's an achievement every single time.

That's actually something I would like. Like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAGqdygI6oY) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-CnndyHTPc). Top level play has proven the first one can be solo'd, but the second one is flatout impossible to solo so far.

Of course, the game developers would never make bosses remotely challenging because that would mean requiring people to get good, like MHFO does. So I don't expect to get what I want, because that goes against what Sega wants.

Which is something I wish a lot of people would actually consider when talking about what they want from the game. It's disappointing to me that Elder and Loser and the other gigantic bosses will probably always be jokes, but that's just how it is. Same applies to a lot of complaints.

Kondibon
Oct 20, 2014, 06:04 PM
I'd prefer WB be nerfed into a skill more in-line with other skills in terms of total damage, yet still retain its support role.Most people will lambast me for this, but another idea I had for WB (and other bullet skills) was for them to have shorter cooldowns (like 10-20 seconds) and lower multipliers (and/or not stack with existing multipliers), to encourage people to use them for stuff other than bosses, and make it less punishing if you miss.


The obvious solution is to make it very hard to kill any boss so it's an achievement every single time.When they expect you to grind bosses multiple times it stops feeling like an achivement and starts feeling tedious, REALLY fast. So no, that's not the "obvious" solution.

Maenara
Oct 20, 2014, 06:07 PM
They expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items because they expect you to kill them in five seconds because they expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items. It's a vicious circle, and nobody enjoys either half of it. Except my one friend who is absolutely fucking fascinated with oneshotting bosses as RA/BR.

Maenara
Oct 20, 2014, 06:17 PM
Let me put it this way. If Loser and Elder took an hour to maybe kill with a full MPA of fully kitted out players, I'm sure it would be fine for them to drop a 12* for everyone every single time. The fact that there's not a single item in the game that shouts 'wow, that player is skilled to even have that', instead of 'wow, that player is lucky to have that drop', is pretty shitty. You see someone with an Orochi Agito? You can easily get a drop chance for Orochi Agito. Elder is so easy. Getting that Orochi Agito is not a matter of killing a boss. No, it's not. It's a matter using as many boosters and characters as you possibly can. This is exactly why EVERYTHING is time gated. Because you can faceroll things so easy. If you could run Mining Base Defense as much as you wanted any time you wanted? 50% of the playerbase would have full 11* sets in a week.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 06:20 PM
When they expect you to grind bosses multiple times it stops feeling like an achivement and starts feeling tedious, REALLY fast. So no, that's not the "obvious" solution.

Monster Hunter walks this line pretty well, in my opinion. My only experience with the franchise is with Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, but in that game fighting a boss is challenging the first time because you're unsure of its tells, abilities, and weaknesses.

That's why the first run might take a while (bear in mind, I played solo into G-Rank for 300 hours and then online for another 800 to complete a huge majority of what a blademaster can equip). The second run, you know what gear to bring and know what attacks to look out for.

The twentieth run? It's like clockwork, and it feels good. You've learned the boss, and your efforts have paid off: You can run the boss quickly and efficiently.

The hundredth run...fuck off gigginox I'm sick of your shit. Give me the poison sacs and fuck off.

Lumpen Thingy
Oct 20, 2014, 06:33 PM
Monster Hunter walks this line pretty well, in my opinion. My only experience with the franchise is with Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate, but in that game fighting a boss is challenging the first time because you're unsure of its tells, abilities, and weaknesses.

That's why the first run might take a while (bear in mind, I played solo into G-Rank for 300 hours and then online for another 800 to complete a huge majority of what a blademaster can equip). The second run, you know what gear to bring and know what attacks to look out for.

The twentieth run? It's like clockwork, and it feels good. You've learned the boss, and your efforts have paid off: You can run the boss quickly and efficiently.

The hundredth run...fuck off gigginox I'm sick of your shit. Give me the poison sacs and fuck off.

don't you dare remind me of gigginox. that thing was a massive fuckoff

NoiseHERO
Oct 20, 2014, 06:37 PM
The obvious solution is to make it very hard to kill any boss so it's an achievement every single time.

Naaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh...

Maybe if this was some other game, but not PSO2, let alone something made by sega.

So just go back to doing what you're good at SEGA and put everything on rails like Sanic.

And give us 500% dmg WB.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 06:38 PM
don't you dare remind me of gigginox. that thing was a massive fuckoff

I got to a point where I had to make, like, 10 different things that needed poison sacs between upgrades and stuff so I'd have to kill something like 36 gigginoxes if I was lucky and I was just

no

no fuck that I'm done

never made any of it

In the end it was having dozens upon dozens of qurupecos to kill for a whole bunch of different weapons and armor that made me stop signing in, though. I'd done basically everything else. Farming Alatreon? Cool. Farming Qurupecos? Nah f it.

Kondibon
Oct 20, 2014, 06:53 PM
They expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items because they expect you to kill them in five seconds because they expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items. It's a vicious circle, and nobody enjoys either half of it. Except my one friend who is absolutely fucking fascinated with oneshotting bosses as RA/BR.


Let me put it this way. If Loser and Elder took an hour to maybe kill with a full MPA of fully kitted out players, I'm sure it would be fine for them to drop a 12* for everyone every single time. The fact that there's not a single item in the game that shouts 'wow, that player is skilled to even have that', instead of 'wow, that player is lucky to have that drop', is pretty shitty. You see someone with an Orochi Agito? You can easily get a drop chance for Orochi Agito. Elder is so easy. Getting that Orochi Agito is not a matter of killing a boss. No, it's not. It's a matter using as many boosters and characters as you possibly can. This is exactly why EVERYTHING is time gated. Because you can faceroll things so easy. If you could run Mining Base Defense as much as you wanted any time you wanted? 50% of the playerbase would have full 11* sets in a week.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just point out that there's more to your solution than just making the bosses harder, and I firmly believe that having them be made to ALWAYS be a challenge is actually really tedious. There's nothing wrong with getting better at doing something until you get used to it, that's going to happen no matter what, and trying to force it not to is just going to frustrate people when the point is to make people feel good about learning enough to best whatever challenge they're faced with.

I agree that RNG shouldn't be as big a thing as it is right now and I really would rather have genuinely challenging content with guaranteed rewards, than hoping you get what you want, maybe, eventually. They came close with the AQ, XQ, and falz stone gear, but all of that stuff feels more like consolation prizes except MAYBE the bio weapons.

I still say the biggest problem is the EQ system though. They can't realistically make hard content, with a real risk of failure if you aren't organized enough, AND have it be an EQ. The iteration time is too long. If they're gonna do that then it needs to be something players can organize on their own time. I'm sure this is what they want UQs to be, but that's also what AQs and XQs were supposed to be so...

LonelyGaruga
Oct 20, 2014, 07:02 PM
Should look at Frontier instead of the mainstream MH games. Frontier is actually an online game and has just recently done what amounts to its fifth equivalent of Ultimate mode now with the Awakening Conquest Wars (the only two examples implemented so far I linked in my previous post). Nothing in any mainstream MH game has ever come close to the difficulty that Frontier's been doing for several years. MH3U is even one of the easier MH games, to be quite blunt. Monster Hunter Freedom was the most difficult mainstream one from what I understand, though I started with MHFU and haven't played anything more recent, so I can't verify it personally.

Awakening Conquest Wars have the kind of difficulty I want to see from PSO2's Ultimate Quests, and I'm expecting not to see that happen, but I'll hold on hope that we'll see a second tier of Ultimate happen that will make this work. I just want bosses that pose a good fight, not things that have to die quickly because of a bad drop system.

UnLucky
Oct 20, 2014, 08:36 PM
I've been in plenty of runs where Luther was easily killed in a little over 10 minutes, or some times even a little less, without Weak Bullet. Various teams that I was a part of also could even kill Luther fast without a Weak Bullet.
Are you going to tell me you guys couldn't kill faster with WB? You'd honestly organize a specialized team to kill Loser without a Ranger because taking WB would slow down your run? Get out of here


I think what they WERE going to do with weakbullet sounded amazing, make it so you can lock onto it. Make it a weak point multiplier (as in, weak hit advance procs from it so like a 1.1x, but not a 2.55x multiplier). That would be great for bosses like zesh where nothing breakable is normally targetable. Make it 1/4 the CD and only load 1 at a time too, something. It's just retarded needing a class to be far more effective.
WHA should always trigger on the enemy's weakest part. Faces and glowing red spots should be considered weak points no matter what.

WB should force WHA on any part, and not stack with innate weaknesses. This could be achieved by flipping a switch to consider even a 0.01x multiplier as a weakness, or replace the struck part's resistance with either 1.01x or the same value as the enemy's otherwise weakest part.

Shooting Micdas in the back and still doing shit damage is dumb.
Using WB on a guarding Krahb and still not getting WHA was retarded, but they fixed that.
Stacking 2-3x damage on 2-3x weak spots for absurd numbers for everyone in your multiparty is just the worst.

If they nerf WB lower than 2x, stuff like Malmoth body, Vol/Quartz tail, Zesh parts, Org's feet, and defending Krahbs wouldn't count as weak points anymore. Maybe that's "fine" and it could kill Ra/Br pretty damn hard, but although it fixes the issue with bosses melting, it doesn't make it any more fun to play.

Arkanoid
Oct 20, 2014, 08:47 PM
I don't really understand when people want bosses in Phantasy Star to suddenly play exactly like Monster Hunter. There's the 50 Monster Hunter games and their 500 clones if you really want to play a game like that. Just let PS be PS. I prefer my boss fights not taking forever. But yes WB does end up making them die too fast xD

Kondibon
Oct 20, 2014, 09:02 PM
I don't really understand when people want bosses in Phantasy Star to suddenly play exactly like Monster Hunter. There's the 50 Monster Hunter games and their 500 clones if you really want to play a game like that. Just let PS be PS. I prefer my boss fights not taking forever. But yes WB does end up making them die too fast xDI think this is actually due to SEGA's lack of direction. They're trying to make the game DMC, Monster Hunter, and Dynasty Warriors all at the same time and it's just not working properly because of those types of games being at odds with eachother in different ways. The result is that different people want them to focus on a different style instead of trying to be all 3 at once.

Kondibon
Oct 20, 2014, 09:20 PM
If they nerf WB lower than 2x, stuff like Malmoth body, Vol/Quartz tail, Zesh parts, Org's feet, and defending Krahbs wouldn't count as weak points anymore. Maybe that's "fine" and it could kill Ra/Br pretty damn hard, but although it fixes the issue with bosses melting, it doesn't make it any more fun to play.That's why it needs to overwrite the resistance instead of stacking on top of it. That way it's still useful for armored stuff and breakable parts but doesn't turn 2x weakpoints into 5x weakpoints. Might run into problems with spots that have higher multipliers than WB though.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 09:35 PM
Just let PS be PS. I prefer my boss fights not taking forever.

You didn't play PSO1, did you.

We've got a thread in the PSO forum right now, about a guy who spent an hour fighting Gal Gryphon when he unlocked access to it until finally dying.

Fights back then took longer than most fights in MH do, that's for sure. Even after leveling they could still take 15 minutes or more solo or with a buddy.

Now you can solo some same level bosses in literally less than 2 minutes, sometimes less than 1 minute, no WB necessary.

Arkanoid
Oct 20, 2014, 10:29 PM
You didn't play PSO1, did you.

We've got a thread in the PSO forum right now, about a guy who spent an hour fighting Gal Gryphon when he unlocked access to it until finally dying.

Fights back then took longer than most fights in MH do, that's for sure. Even after leveling they could still take 15 minutes or more solo or with a buddy.

Now you can solo some same level bosses in literally less than 2 minutes, sometimes less than 1 minute, no WB necessary.

I played PSO1 solo for 3 years as a hunter before ever playing it online :)
I never took an hour to kill any boss, but I wouldn't attempt any episode 2 areas as soon as they were unlocked because it was obvious from fighting the enemies at a lower level that I wasn't ready for those areas yet. I actually started episode 2 first as a level 1 when I started it on Gamecube and it was nightmarish just trying to get through the temple. You can unlock stuff pretty early IMO, level 80 might be fine for ultimate in multiplayer but when I was struggling just to get anywhere in Ult forest area 1 alone I went right back to doing VH until it made more sense to go back.

Most bosses could be nuked super fast in PSO1, especially in multiplayer. Solo they could be easy too when you had the right stuff, I don't see it being much different in PSO2. Most people are just playing with "the right build" and can obtain the best weapons pretty easily.

gigawuts
Oct 20, 2014, 10:44 PM
I actually started episode 2 first as a level 1 when I started it on Gamecube and it was nightmarish just trying to get through the temple.
Oh my god :disapprove:


Most bosses could be nuked super fast in PSO1, especially in multiplayer. Solo they could be easy too when you had the right stuff, I don't see it being much different in PSO2. Most people are just playing with "the right build" and can obtain the best weapons pretty easily.

Hm, it's been a while since I've done boss runs in PSO1, but I remember most bosses taking around 10 minutes to fight with good gear. I played PSO1 mostly solo, personally. I could be wrong, or I could have been bad, or maybe both!

I don't want boss fights to take, you know, 30 minutes, but bear in mind that in MH the solo times I had compared roughly with my experiences in PSO1 after you were well geared. In groups things go down in MH in a fraction of that time, especially with bombs and traps.

I do understand wanting PS to not be the same thing as MH, though. I even agree. It's just, well, I'd want it to be more like PSO1, and that isn't going to happen...and it's already pretty similar to MH in a lot of ways (intentionally, I'm sure).

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 12:51 AM
I don't really understand when people want bosses in Phantasy Star to suddenly play exactly like Monster Hunter. There's the 50 Monster Hunter games and their 500 clones if you really want to play a game like that. Just let PS be PS. I prefer my boss fights not taking forever. But yes WB does end up making them die too fast xD

All of the clones suck and I, personally, don't want PSO2 to have boss fights like MH. What I want is for PSO2 to have respectable boss fights, using MH as a comparison. MH gets it right because that's basically the entire appeal of the franchise. The fights against the large monsters. It's a "boss" game. There is no reason PSO2 cannot have bosses that are respectable to a similar degree.

For the record, Gigawuts, if you're speaking from just MH3U, that is one of the easiest MH games by far in terms of monster frailty. Blast/Slime was game breaking to an extent that no other MH game has replicated, and changes in monster HP and hitzones made bombs more effective starting with 3rd-gen on. That's not to say that older games didn't have easily defeated bosses, as those games had much more emphasis on striking weak points for massive damage (not unlike PSO2, minus the WB), but the monster variety was much better about that stuff. Many Elder Dragons (immune to traps), more monsters immune to specific traps (Golden Rajang, Yian Garuga, Nargacuga, all absent from MH3U), rage mode system was better (some monsters had very lengthy/frequent rage modes or even permanent ones in the case of Shogun Ceanataur, if its claw was broken), fatigue system completetely ruined any semblance of difficulty for anything that was victimized by it in 3rd gen (4th gen is better about this). Sure you had your win buttons on some fights, but many monsters prevented you from abusing them, and most two-shotted everyone when enraged, which is rarely ever the case in any 3rd gen MH game (4th gen seems a little better about this as well).

The overall difficulty of fights rapidly diminishes with parties in MH games, generally speaking. The notoriety it gained for being difficult is almost exclusively for solo players. It has to be solo friendly, otherwise it might be impossible to solo some parts, which can heavily detract from players that are stuck playing by themselves. The only one that properly balances around that stuff is Frontier, since you basically always have a party.

PSO2 is the same way, party-wise, so I don't see why its boss fights should be so weak. Elder is a complete joke, Loser started out OK but basically fell within mainstream MH game levels of difficulty (he'd be a good solo fight if the game was better balanced, but full parties wreck him, is what I mean by this), and every other boss fight is a joke. Sega could be doing so much better than this, but instead it buffs players more and more and more. I'd really like more emphasis on the ENEMY side of PvE balancing, like MH does. It's always buffing monsters way more than the players (though players get lots of cool things too, they really are not the focus here), making sure that each and every one is a unique, enjoyable fight. That's how PSO2's boss fights should be. I wanna see things like Fang/Snow duo pair up right off the bat and do attacks in tandem. I wanna see Vol Dragon putting way more emphasis on its armor phases, giving it multiple ways to don armor and shed it. I wanna see Goronzoran actually summoning things for real, and not just Vol Dragons, but mobs too. Stuff like that.

That's fair to ask of Sega, isn't it? It's not that I want it to be MH-like, but that I want the bosses to be much more amazing than they are. I want them to really stand out instead of being forgettable punching bags. That's what I'm getting at when I bring up MH. Every single monster, at the very least, is a unique fight that stands out, which is much more than I could say for PSO2's boss fights, which go down in minutes at most.

UnLucky
Oct 21, 2014, 01:54 AM
All the bosses are super unique.

Rockbear stands in one spot and you hit him in the head and he falls over.
Vol Dragon stands in one spot and you hit him in the head and he falls over multiple times.
Gwana sits in one spot and you hit his stomach or face and he falls over.
Banthers sit in one spot and you hit them in the head and they both fall over in turn.
Vader sits in one spot and you hit his core until he explodes.
Quartz sits in one spot and you hit his nose and he falls over multiple times.
Zesh falls over in one spot and you hit his stomach until he dies. Or just hit his head.
Moron Boron falls over in one spot and you hit his chair until he dies.
Rodos gets harpooned in one spot and you fill his mouth full of photons.
Ringha boss totally has rings that is so unique ok nothing has that.
Meduna I don't even know what it does but it sure does die pretty hard. Also it floats.

Wolga, Org Blan, Ex, and Soma are clones, though.

Selphea
Oct 21, 2014, 02:07 AM
Can you stunlock Chrome or Falz Angel? Always wondered about that

Rakurai
Oct 21, 2014, 02:15 AM
Nope.

You need to actually break their parts to cause a stagger, and their stagger animations are short, outside of the former's wings being broken when it's airborne, and when both of the latter's wings are broken.

Achelousaurus
Oct 21, 2014, 04:05 AM
Are you running around with 10 SP in Step Advance? Because 1 SP has been enough to dodge everything I could want to, angry Banther claw swipes included. You are jump canceling Step to perform a second one, right?
Well, now I am...
And yeah I used to have 10 points there but I re-specced and got 0 in it now.
Not noticing a difference tbh.



That's pretty stupid, and it's Sega's fault. Players will do things like that in this situation. Sega knows it. It's Sega's responsibility to account for that.
Suganuma knows cause he plays the game.
Doubtful the others know. And probably no one cares anyway.

Anyway, WB is the game.
How do you change the gameplay if you do not change game mechanics?
WB is just one of them.
And it sticks out like a sore thumb cause it screws up every attempt of balance instantly.
There are a couple more like it, but it's king of balance breakers.


Most people will lambast me for this, but another idea I had for WB (and other bullet skills) was for them to have shorter cooldowns (like 10-20 seconds) and lower multipliers (and/or not stack with existing multipliers), to encourage people to use them for stuff other than bosses, and make it less punishing if you miss.

When they expect you to grind bosses multiple times it stops feeling like an achivement and starts feeling tedious, REALLY fast. So no, that's not the "obvious" solution.
A) weaker, briefer WB sounds good.
Lasts 10 seconds for a 35% dmg boost. CD 30 seconds for 1-2 bullets or something.
No wait, if it has to be used too often rangers must become WB dispensers and nothing else.
Just nerf into oblivion, 3 minutes CD and 20% dmg boost but buff ranger PAs and cc or something so it's not gunner v2.

B) I want actual Raid bosses. Well, I never played a raid but I want epic bosses were epic bosses are due.
We got our easy speedkill bosses in ALL of those that can pop up in codes, which is every boss aside from falz, luther and vardha (vardha only cause he's big, not cause he's tough).
Falz and Luther also come in EQs only and you can kill them once and no more regardless of how long you take doing so, this wouldn't impact farming speed unless you always run them 3 times.
I also want the other bosses to be buffed,but not much. Make them last 3-4 minutes in an mpa and 7-10 solo, not 10-30 seconds.


They expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items because they expect you to kill them in five seconds because they expect you to grind bosses a million times for rare items. It's a vicious circle, and nobody enjoys either half of it. Except my one friend who is absolutely fucking fascinated with oneshotting bosses as RA/BR.
You got it all wrong.
They expect you to take forever so you hunt forever so you play forever so you pay forever.
Even if it's no monthly fee anymore, you are bound to pay more the longer you play. A few AC here or there, hell every premium user will pay as long as he plays.

Also, no one wants hour long boss fights, that's nonsense and no one really has time for this.
30 minutes is fine.
Also, I'm all for higher drop rates cause we work harder.



Hm, it's been a while since I've done boss runs in PSO1, but I remember most bosses taking around 10 minutes to fight with good gear. I played PSO1 mostly solo, personally. I could be wrong, or I could have been bad, or maybe both!

Both ._.
I played little solo after my noobs days on GC solo offline but with good gear and knowing what you are doing a boss shouldn't take more than 5 minutes, discounting cutscenes (and maybe Falz and Olga).
If you knew exactly what you were doing, it could be 30-60 seconds and I've been in more 4 people Falz / Olga fights that lasted 30 seconds (not counting cutscenes) than I can count.

Kondibon
Oct 21, 2014, 04:29 AM
A) weaker, briefer WB sounds good.
Lasts 10 seconds for a 35% dmg boost. CD 30 seconds for 1-2 bullets or something.
No wait, if it has to be used too often rangers must become WB dispensers and nothing else.
Just nerf into oblivion, 3 minutes CD and 20% dmg boost but buff ranger PAs and cc or something so it's not gunner v2.

B) I want actual Raid bosses. Well, I never played a raid but I want epic bosses were epic bosses are due.
We got our easy speedkill bosses in ALL of those that can pop up in codes, which is every boss aside from falz, luther and vardha (vardha only cause he's big, not cause he's tough).
Falz and Luther also come in EQs only and you can kill them once and no more regardless of how long you take doing so, this wouldn't impact farming speed unless you always run them 3 times.
I also want the other bosses to be buffed,but not much. Make them last 3-4 minutes in an mpa and 7-10 solo, not 10-30 seconds.
I never said anything about being briefer, but I see your point. My favorite idea is still having it replace instead of stack on weak points.

Based on what I know about raids, no, you probably don't want actual raid bosses. Also, the idea I, and a lot of other people, have had to address the fact that stuff just melts in MPAs is having proper enemy scaling. Sure, some bosses have special titled versions that spawn in big mpas... but what's 2 or even 3x the hp gonna do against 12x the players or if you want to include wb 30x the players. GW2 has had problems with linear scaling due to the sheer amount of players that can be present durring an event, but PSO2 caps at 12 players on a map at a time. Just having the enemy hp be multiplied by the number of players would go a long way towards making them last longer.

The main problems I could see spawning from this are players not pulling their weight and thus things just becoming tedious, or people straight up prefering to do small groups because 4 good players ends up killing luther faster than 12 bad ones. The later can probably be fixed by having certain bosses like elder and luther continuing to have fixed hp though.

isCasted
Oct 21, 2014, 06:12 AM
Weak Bullet in its current form is really unnecessary. SEGA would only need to nerf Falzes (not even Elder, perhaps) to make game work without WB. The only part of Ranger's gameplay that can seriously become tedious is part breaking. Solution? Break Bullet! We have Break Stance coded into the game, right? What's preventing devs to make it work like this? Just same as Weak Bullet, except without 255% modifier (WHA/Weak Stance procuring would be enough) and only works on breakable parts.

Selphea
Oct 21, 2014, 06:47 AM
I wonder why the Grenade bullet is Jellen Shot but the Rifle bullet ended up being Weak Bullet instead of Zalure Bullet. A DEF debuff would've gone better with the tradition of Jellen and Zalure.

Maenara
Oct 21, 2014, 08:52 AM
All the bosses are super unique.

Rockbear stands in one spot and you hit him in the head and he falls over.
Vol Dragon stands in one spot and you hit him in the head and he falls over multiple times.
Gwana sits in one spot and you hit his stomach or face and he falls over.
Banthers sit in one spot and you hit them in the head and they both fall over in turn.
Vader sits in one spot and you hit his core until he explodes.
Quartz sits in one spot and you hit his nose and he falls over multiple times.
Zesh falls over in one spot and you hit his stomach until he dies. Or just hit his head.
Moron Boron falls over in one spot and you hit his chair until he dies.
Rodos gets harpooned in one spot and you fill his mouth full of photons.
Ringha boss totally has rings that is so unique ok nothing has that.
Meduna I don't even know what it does but it sure does die pretty hard. Also it floats.

Wolga, Org Blan, Ex, and Soma are clones, though.

Soma is literally nothing like any other boss in the game, even Big Vardha.

Vampy
Oct 21, 2014, 09:47 AM
Should look at Frontier instead of the mainstream MH games. Frontier is actually an online game and has just recently done what amounts to its fifth equivalent of Ultimate mode now with the Awakening Conquest Wars (the only two examples implemented so far I linked in my previous post). Nothing in any mainstream MH game has ever come close to the difficulty that Frontier's been doing for several years. MH3U is even one of the easier MH games, to be quite blunt. Monster Hunter Freedom was the most difficult mainstream one from what I understand, though I started with MHFU and haven't played anything more recent, so I can't verify it personally.

Awakening Conquest Wars have the kind of difficulty I want to see from PSO2's Ultimate Quests, and I'm expecting not to see that happen, but I'll hold on hope that we'll see a second tier of Ultimate happen that will make this work. I just want bosses that pose a good fight, not things that have to die quickly because of a bad drop system.


Technically speaking both the fatalis can reach these levels but those two are the only ones so far capcom has released directly at level 9999 if you grind the other ones enough you could theoretically get something along those lines because a lot of bosses have been implemented in to the awakening conquest wars and unknown actually was released without an actual awakening conquest war quest prior. Also It's a bit unfair to compare frontier with pso2 seeing as it has been out for 7 years already it will eventually reach those levels possibly but a lot of things need to rebalanced for it to really work.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 12:43 PM
Well, now I am...
And yeah I used to have 10 points there but I re-specced and got 0 in it now.
Not noticing a difference tbh.

Stick with 1 SP. If you can't abuse the invincibility frames whenever you would want them, then you need to practice. Step isn't the problem, your ability to use it is.


Technically speaking both the fatalis can reach these levels but those two are the only ones so far capcom has released directly at level 9999 if you grind the other ones enough you could theoretically get something along those lines because a lot of bosses have been implemented in to the awakening conquest wars and unknown actually was released without an actual awakening conquest war quest prior. Also It's a bit unfair to compare frontier with pso2 seeing as it has been out for 7 years already it will eventually reach those levels possibly but a lot of things need to rebalanced for it to really work.

I'd really like to talk about this stuff more, but that's completely off topic to what I was getting at, so I'll skip directly to what is on topic.

I'm not trying to compare Awakening Conquest Wars to PSO2's current gameplay, but what I want PSO2 boss fights to be like several years from now. But Frontier's been doing way better bosses than PSO2 has for ages, and PSO2's bosses could be massively improved without remotely approaching ACW levels, like the examples I gave earlier. Snow/Fang pair really should just fight at the beginning and use attacks in tandem, but they don't. Vol Dragon really should have more emphasis on its completely unique armor phases, but it doesn't. Chrome Dragon's been summoning the same darkers since VH, in every single area, instead of summoning a wider variety or ones based on the area. I don't want huge challenges now, but I do want them to work harder on the bosses (and enemies, to a lesser extent) than they do the players.

UnLucky
Oct 21, 2014, 01:48 PM
Soma is literally nothing like any other boss in the game, even Big Vardha.
It's the exact same thing as Biol Meduna.

Floats around a bit, does nothing, has electricity that doesn't hit anybody, and then dies.

Maenara
Oct 21, 2014, 02:20 PM
It's the exact same thing as Biol Meduna.

Floats around a bit, does nothing, has electricity that doesn't hit anybody, and then dies.

That would make Biol Meduna the clone, not Soma.

STNFCST
Oct 21, 2014, 03:44 PM
I played MH1 demo since ps2 and gone hardcore at MHP2.

What makes Monster Hunter interesting that the player can't leech or they will died along which flag ending quest. PSO2 means to attract those failure people.

And to think about pso2 players, it seems there is only 3 people I meeted outside the team know what they doing. The other are just baddies with alot of amount textys complain.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 21, 2014, 04:13 PM
Weak Bullet in its current form is really unnecessary. SEGA would only need to nerf Falzes (not even Elder, perhaps) to make game work without WB.

I'm not entirely sure, but what about those super mutated bosses/dark vibras yuga in the later waves of TD3? Their HP is a chore to take down even with an AIS if you don't have WB.

isCasted
Oct 21, 2014, 04:24 PM
Perhaps readjusting power of titles would be needed too. If lv1 title is something like 3-4x right now - make it 2. If it lv2 title is 8-12x - make it 4. My opinion is that it is a very artificial way to balance enemies with account of number of players, so it's kind of broken in first place.

Another bad thing about this design: whether boss is going to be titled or not is still random, so you can get titled ones in 3-man party and untitled ones in 12/12 MPA and reward doesn't change. TD3 and Lead Border Breaker are the only quests in the game where lv2 titles are guaranteed (and, in fact, I have never seen lv2 titles outside of these EQs, and I played a lot).

Vibrace Yuga... I don't even understand why it exists as separate enemy. A link to Ultimate darkers? Meh...

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 04:41 PM
Titled bosses are fine. They're the only thing that makes the bosses slightly difficult. If anything, they should be more common. Like as end of quest bosses. A health reduction on titles is fine if the standard bosses get buffed up to compensate, though.

Titled bosses drop stuff with Mutation I (Vinculum for level 2 titles), so there is something of a reward, even if it isn't much. Dunno if there's anything else to them or not though.

Searaphim
Oct 21, 2014, 05:14 PM
I feel that bosses just aren't aggressive enough, that or their AI is just too dumb. When I fight a PSO2 boss solo or in group I'd like to have a hard time and experience a fun boss gameplay like in the Souls games.

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 05:21 PM
You guys need more dark souls

Maninbluejumpsuit
Oct 21, 2014, 05:34 PM
You guys need more dark souls

And you need JESUS!

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 05:37 PM
And you need JESUS!

No am dark lord.

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 05:48 PM
You guys need more dark souls

Dark Souls isn't hard though, it's just tedious.

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 05:52 PM
Who said it was hard.

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 05:57 PM
Who said it was hard.

I felt it was implied the way you brought it up in a discussion about boss difficulty, especially considering people frequently lord the Souls series above others as being some kind of difficult when really it's just an exercise in preemptively dodging.

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 06:07 PM
It's not hard, it's challenging.

PSO2 is tedious.

Dark Souls is gitgud or git humanity.

Jaqlou Swig KING
Oct 21, 2014, 06:09 PM
Dark Souls isn't hard though, it's just tedious.

How is it tedious? I could see you saying that about Demons Souls what with the Tendency mechanic. But the Dark series is in no way, shape, or form "tedious".

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 06:14 PM
I found it pretty tedious. Everything was always the same damn fight everywhere you went. Don't get ganged up on, clear out rooms, gather souls, etc. Each boss was about figuring out its tells and exploiting them, making fights pretty similar in their approach and thus making them feel about the same. Did you die? Slosh through the same tedious shit you just went through to get your souls and whatnot.

Since taking risks was actively discouraged by taking pretty high amounts of damage from seemingly arbitrarily chosen attacks, avoiding everything was the best course of action - making the entire game an exercise in not being hit at all, thus making it tedious.

I honestly found DS1 very forgettable and felt pretty unintrigued by the idea of a sequel, and haven't even bothered playing it. Maybe when it's $7.50 on steam.

But yeah, y'all fuckers hype DS way too high.

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 06:20 PM
git gud.

[spoiler-box]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/690/997/d06.jpg[/spoiler-box]

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 06:21 PM
git gud.

I don't feel like this is contributing positively to the discussion, Rock Eastwood.

BIG OLAF
Oct 21, 2014, 06:24 PM
Dark Souls:

Learn enemy tells -> wait for an opening -> land one or two hits -> repeat

Much difficult.

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 06:25 PM
Sorry edited post

Jaqlou Swig KING
Oct 21, 2014, 06:36 PM
I found it pretty tedious. Everything was always the same damn fight everywhere you went. Don't get ganged up on, clear out rooms, gather souls, etc.

Sounds like an Action game. Hell, sounds like PSO lol.


Each boss was about figuring out its tells and exploiting them, making fights pretty similar in their approach and thus making them feel about the same.

Sounds like any boss fight in a game that doesn't get instantly molested by you.


Did you die? Slosh through the same tedious shit you just went through to get your souls and whatnot.

Sounds almost like you're punished for making a mistake in battle.



Since taking risks was actively discouraged by taking pretty high amounts of damage from seemingly arbitrarily chosen attacks, avoiding everything was the best course of action - making the entire game an exercise in not being hit at all, thus making it tedious.

Not getting hit is generally the best course of action against any boss in any game.


I honestly found DS1 very forgettable and felt pretty unintrigued by the idea of a sequel, and haven't even bothered playing it. Maybe when it's $7.50 on steam.

Crown Souls is alright. You might like the vanilla game on NG difficulty.


But yeah, y'all fuckers hype DS way too high.

Turn down for what?

The Walrus
Oct 21, 2014, 06:38 PM
I thought DkS2 was Casual Souls >.>

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 06:38 PM
But I like it when being hit is an acceptable strategy some of the time, making avoiding being hit an additional layer instead of the core layer.

Like Monster Hunter. Get hit is something you intentionally do sometimes, to keep you in position for something else.

Jaqlou Swig KING
Oct 21, 2014, 06:39 PM
Nah, it's Crown Souls now because of the DLC being superior enough to the vanilla game to be considered the real game.

The Walrus
Oct 21, 2014, 06:40 PM
I suppose that makes sense. DLC was a lot better...

Jaqlou Swig KING
Oct 21, 2014, 06:41 PM
THAT FUME KNIGHT HNNG

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 06:44 PM
But I like it when being hit is an acceptable strategy some of the time, making avoiding being hit an additional layer instead of the core layer.

Like Monster Hunter. Get hit is something you intentionally do sometimes, to keep you in position for something else.

I can't think of anything like that, except for when you have the option to block, but you would get all your stamina drained AND get hit if you did block, so getting hit was the lesser of two evils.

PSO2 does the whole taking hits for tactical reasons way better anyway.

The Walrus
Oct 21, 2014, 06:46 PM
THAT FUME KNIGHT HNNG

and weebstein

NoiseHERO
Oct 21, 2014, 06:47 PM
dick souls 2 is the red headed step child, who grows up to be okay guy through DLC.

Anyway, souls aside, way I see it, this game will be perpetually mediocre/non-challenging just because of it's design period. I'm pretty sure that's the reason it's gameplay alone wouldn't fly on the new vita game without a new company designing it. Whatever they're doin' with that game, could be wrong, that game looks kinda ehn too. <_<

It's clearly designed for the dress up aspect.

Back to souls, blocking, special attacks, magic and shootin' works too, it's not a dodge stamina test unless you're playing in the most typical way. So technically you are allowed to get hit especially if you're built for it, that thing mags fail to do for you.

gigawuts
Oct 21, 2014, 06:58 PM
I can't think of anything like that, except for when you have the option to block, but you would get all your stamina drained AND get hit if you did block, so getting hit was the lesser of two evils.

PSO2 does the whole taking hits for tactical reasons way better anyway.

If two attacks are barreling at you, and evading isn't really an option, running into the lower damage hit is viable. Also, being kicked by a teammate with more hp (totally love that, actually had someone do that to me more than once).

Also getting nibbled by a jaggi instead of deviljho when you know you won't be able to avoid an attack.

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 07:14 PM
Oh, so basically just abusing invincibility frames that come from certain animations when damaged. Well I guess that does count. Can't really say it comes into play with higher level play, though.

It is something PSO2 is rather lacking in, though...a lot of mobs hit harder than bosses do. Really sad.

Keilyn
Oct 21, 2014, 10:27 PM
I find PSO-2 to be more "character-oriented" than anything else. Its not really plot driven, and its not about challenge. Its about the artistic form to dress up your character, make your character and raise it and get through the game and have some fun.

Its not a hardcore game at all,
95% of this game I went through a friend using 3* equipment crafted upwards. Varying armors aside...

The one thing I felt should have been corrected was the area enemy cap.

Amazing that players could be 70/70, in which...correct me if I am wrong, we get 20% of the attributes from the subclass, so if the main and sub had the same primary attribute...it would be like running a level 84 class right (if subclass didnt exist) but without subclass skills and PAs...(which add a lot to the game).

So we run, play on most maps where the level cap of the player is 70, and the monsters are 63 - 65? I loved the scaling in Shironia and Facility and the insanity. :)

Ultimate Mode.....
I can only imagine with Level 75 Main Classes and Subclasses, along with 13 - 15* equipment, weak bullet, and a hungry community of players who really want to see a monster that could kick their ass and be proud of, maybe then they can become happy to all the grinds and equipment geared up to actually wipe out those monsters solo. :)

Of course. I like the options the game has...

LonelyGaruga
Oct 21, 2014, 11:00 PM
So we run, play on most maps where the level cap of the player is 70, and the monsters are 63 - 65? I loved the scaling in Shironia and Facility and the insanity. :)

If by insanity you mean how insanely easy it is, sure. Equally leveled enemies right now are a joke and a 5 level advantage (what UQs and Extra Hard will amount to) is hardly anything. I, for one, barely noticed the difference when TD1 and TD2 had their levels bumped up from 65 to 70. It's nothing. PSO2's repeatedly had 5 level handicaps for enemies at varying points in its history. Unless it is a very serious revamp (which is possible, just unlikely), it's going to be a joke.

Walkure
Oct 21, 2014, 11:20 PM
I noticed the change from 65 mobs to 70. Lots more Excubes for the same effort!

Also the power creep race has been almost entirely between class/weapon/etc damage multipliers and mob HP modifiers. Oh, and freeing up dead space in skill trees from Ep3 revamp allows for points to actually be put into respective atk ups, but you can treat that as a pseudo-multiplier. Base stats and mob def have increased with levels but they're not the significant factors in either damage dealt nor bulkiness of mobs.

Omega-z
Oct 21, 2014, 11:33 PM
Ult. Seems about the same or little bit more powerful according to the video damage even tho their Lv.80. So, the only thing might be harder is the faster attack patterns/ movement/ new attacks/ resistance and more Hyper armor moments, Especially the Anga Fandarge since it gets stronger and stronger. How that works is still a mystery but it could be by time or damage but who knows. But I agree it's going to be pretty easy tho, even Magastu too.

HeyItsTHK
Oct 22, 2014, 01:42 AM
It'll be hard, until it stops being hard. Like in all things in all games.

Unless it's cheap, then it'll be cheap forever.

Kondibon
Oct 22, 2014, 01:44 AM
It'll be hard, until it stops being hard. Like in all things in all games.

Unless it's cheap, then it'll be cheap forever.
I think people want it to genuinely require you to be good at the game instead of just throwing out huge numbers and face rolling things before they can realistically react. I know that's what I want at least.

UnLucky
Oct 22, 2014, 01:48 AM
Even still, a level cap increase and new gear makes all old content a complete joke.

Xaelouse
Oct 22, 2014, 01:49 AM
Ah, so UQ has their own enemy types. So nevermind about the native slayer potentials being good here I guess. So stupid that they decide to invalidate some weapons just because

Rakurai
Oct 22, 2014, 02:00 AM
Wonder if there's a single party area to fight the UQ bosses in like with other quests.

Kondibon
Oct 22, 2014, 02:01 AM
So, did anyone else see the stat requirement for that 13* weapon that was being grinded? Because it was 730 of something. This is a pretty big hit to people without pure mags and optimal race class combos. Poor Milla.


Even still, a level cap increase and new gear makes all old content a complete joke.Well yeah. I think it's a bigger problem that NEW content will be a complete joke than old content. They do need to update AQs and XQs though.

Maenara
Oct 22, 2014, 02:02 AM
Even still, a level cap increase and new gear makes all old content a complete joke.

But, but, Extra Hard Big Vardha in Mega Mecha Awakening has 100k more HP! That will SURELY make a difference!

Walkure
Oct 22, 2014, 03:22 AM
So, did anyone else see the stat requirement for that 13* weapon that was being grinded? Because it was 730 of something. This is a pretty big hit to people without pure mags and optimal race class combos. Poor Milla.
Even on lowest SATK race/gender, and no particular investment in SATK Ups, I could still equip that with plenty of room on either of my partial DEX mags (if I bothered to cap them).

Furthermore:

Hunter can just remove bulk to put points into ATK Ups in a pinch.
Fighter can replace their sidegrade, situational bonuses with static ups in a pinch.
Braver and Bouncer have their own Ups and can utilize HU tree.
Caster Force and Techer subclass trees mastering in an element each already have huge TATK bonuses.
People complain about how bad GU tree multipliers are, so maybe there wouldn't be any problem putting points into RATK Ups.
So I'm not too worried about high attack requirements.

I'd be worried about people trying to use a DEX mag and Braver/Bouncer Mag skills. Alternatively, 700-DEX requirement equips, but nothing close to that has come up for DEX requirements yet. Attack requirements were already creeping up to 700 or so before, so it's not like it's anything new.

Kondibon
Oct 22, 2014, 03:24 AM
Even on lowest SATK race/gender, and no particular investment in SATK Ups, I could still equip that with plenty of room on either of my partial DEX mags (if I bothered to cap them).

Furthermore:

Hunter can just remove bulk to put points into ATK Ups in a pinch.
Fighter can replace their sidegrade, situational bonuses with static ups in a pinch.
Braver and Bouncer have their own Ups and can utilize HU tree.
Caster Force and Techer subclass trees mastering in an element each already have huge TATK bonuses.
People complain about how bad GU tree multipliers are, so maybe there wouldn't be any problem putting points into RATK Ups.
So I'm not too worried about high attack requirements.

I'd be worried about people trying to use a DEX mag and Braver/Bouncer Mag skills. Alternatively, 700-DEX requirement equips, but nothing close to that has come up for DEX requirements yet. Attack requirements were already creeping up to 700 or so before, so it's not like it's anything new.Yeah, I looked at my stats and realized by level 70 even milla would be able to use a rod with a 730 t-atk requirement, so it's no biggie, especially considering they're bumping the cap to 75 too.

HeyItsTHK
Oct 22, 2014, 12:53 PM
I think people want it to genuinely require you to be good at the game instead of just throwing out huge numbers and face rolling things before they can realistically react. I know that's what I want at least.

But I mean like, once you're good at it, it's not difficult for you anymore, unless there's a persistent threat of dying. Like ol PSO1 Dark Falz stealing your soul and your party members don't stop attacking. or insta death megids.