Zondeel future update..

[Sizustar]

Source
http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=4740

In short, they are going to change it so that only the player that cast the Zondeel can "activate "
Due to player feedback and current popular playstyle

[Rakurai]

And thus FOs and TEs everywhere rejoiced.

[KazukiQZ]

^Don't forget BO xD

And this is pretty great news :D

[Perfect Chaos]

Took them a while to make this change... Now people can use a Lightning build without being shunned by all other casters!
There doesn't seem to be any indication on when this change will take place (unless I missed something). Hopefully at the same time as the other big changes/additions on the 19th.

[Xaeris]

Hallejulah.

[Poyonche]

Sweet ! :O

[final_attack]

Ooooh, nice !!

[NoiseHERO]

lol partying with strangers

[isCasted]

It's a logical step, seeing how so many people are going to jump Zandeon bandwagon.

[LotusFX]

Incoming Zondeel spam on TDs. Yay.

[Ordy]

Incoming Zondeel spam on TDs. Yay.

isn't that what people should already be doing?

[Fusionxglave]

sounds pretty good

[gigawuts]

I was kind of hoping they'd reduce its effectiveness, or outright remove the vacuum.

Vacuum Simulator 2 can be really boring.

[Gama]

I was kind of hoping they'd reduce its effectiveness, or outright remove the vacuum.

Vacuum Simulator 2 can be really boring.

dont give them ideas shhhhhhhhhh

[gigawuts]

dont give them ideas shhhhhhhhhh

I'm trying to give them ideas.

Zondeel is terrible.

[Xaelouse]

People will still rarely use lightning techs besides zondeel...

[SakoHaruo]

brb building lightning tree.

Lillipa strats soon. o3o

[pkemr4]

you forgot the changes to Interupt rankings

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=4739

[SakoHaruo]

Interrupt Rankings, what are those? :wacko:

[HeyItsTHK]

you forgot the changes to Interupt rankings

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=4739

You should just explain for people whose IPs can't connect to the site/game.

[Ezodagrom]

You should just explain for people whose IPs can't connect to the site/game.
SEGA is getting rid of random interrupt rankings, they're going to become scheduled only, if I'm not mistaken.

[Sizustar]

you forgot the changes to Interupt rankings

http://pso2.jp/players/support/measures/?id=4739

I didn't thought alot of people on this forum participate in it.

But basicly 2 change to Interrupt ranking.
It's being taken out of EQ rotation, so it'll occur at scheduled time, and it can also occur with EQs at the same time.

[Shinamori]

Oh, cool. Hopefully no more 99% TA IRs.

[SakoHaruo]

I didn't thought alot of people on this forum participate in it.

Not even 1% o3o

[pkemr4]

i thinks more people are annoyed when random EQ are replaces with IR's and have to wait 2-3 hours for another EQ to occur.

[qoxolg]

I was kind of hoping they'd reduce its effectiveness, or outright remove the vacuum.

Vacuum Simulator 2 can be really boring.

S-senpai hates me :(

But seriously SEGA probably doesn't know how broken it is currently, though most of the player base also doesn't seem to know, since the amount of melee Techers I've seen is still extremely low.

I do however like the idea of Techs that have more mechanics then just doing damage. Maybe they should make it a one second suction just like Chaos Riser

[Kondibon]

I also think Zondeel is too good. It makes too many thing things redundant. There's a lot of techs that lose their niche because zondeel is so effective. Don't get me started on the melee techer thing, but I think that's just a problem with how wand gear works.

I like Q's idea of it just having a short suction rather than constantly while it's active.

[gigawuts]

Yeah, a one-time suction that can't be canceled by zapping would be cool. It would make chain zondeel useful again too.

I also like techs that do extra stuff. I'd like it if nagrants pushed from its center to near its edge (not all the way outside of itself, since it'd stop dealing damage). Gizan could do with a stun, too. Maybe on a craft recipe? Stun, damage, and -range would be nice. A HUGE stun tech would be obnoxious.

[EvilMag]

One of the updates says something about reset passes. Could anyone translate?

「追加ツリーリセットパス」について、名称からアイテムの内容がわかりづらいとのご意見をいただいておりま す。
開発チームからのコメント

「追加ツリーリセットパス」につきましては、使用していたクラスとは異なるクラスに振り替えることが可能な アイテムですが、アイテム名称から内容がわかりづらいため、アイテム名称を変更し内容がわかりやすくなるよ うにいたします。

変更前
追加ツリーリセットパス

変更後
追加ツリー振り替えパス

「追加ツリーリセットパス」のアイテム内容については、下記をご確認ください。

[qoxolg]

I also think Zondeel is too good. It makes too many thing things redundant. There's a lot of techs that lose their niche because zondeel is so effective. Don't get me started on the melee techer thing, but I think that's just a problem with how wand gear works.

I like Q's idea of it just having a short suction rather than constantly while it's active.

It's actually much worse. I just summed it earlier today in the Melee Techer thread:

- It has by far the largest AOE of all techs/PA's thanks to Territory Burst and Craft.
- The duration of the suction gives a lot of time to wreck the enemies.
- The quadratic damage of Wand Gear explosions
- Wand smacking is 100% PP free
- After you land the first hit, the enemy will be in an eternal stun lock, though most stuff dies in one hit.

Even without the quadratic wand gear damage, I still one shot most SHAQ enemies after the Zondeel JA, even when it is just one enemy. I hit for like 7~8k+3~4k on non-weakspots. I think my Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn8zyJ9VgW8) sums it up pretty well how broken it is.

[Sizustar]

One of the updates says something about reset passes. Could anyone translate?

「追加ツリーリセットパス」について、名称からアイテムの内容がわかりづらいとのご意見をいただいておりま す。
開発チームからのコメント

「追加ツリーリセットパス」につきましては、使用していたクラスとは異なるクラスに振り替えることが可能な アイテムですが、アイテム名称から内容がわかりづらいため、アイテム名称を変更し内容がわかりやすくなるよ うにいたします。

変更前
追加ツリーリセットパス

変更後
追加ツリー振り替えパス

「追加ツリーリセットパス」のアイテム内容については、下記をご確認ください。

Just changing the name/description from extra Skill reset Pass > Extra Skill Transfer Pass

[Perfect Chaos]

- It has by far the largest AOE of all techs/PA's thanks to Territory Burst and Craft.Well, some other support techs can be crafted to have the same +1 m range, and Concentrated Anti 3 actually has the most possible range due to +2 m on range. But yeah, Zondeel is broken, regardless...

[un1t27]

i thinks more people are annoyed when random EQ are replaces with IR's and have to wait 2-3 hours for another EQ to occur.

Only people who don't play IR say stupid shit like this.

[LonelyGaruga]

Don't see how Zondeel is any more broken than some of the stuff other classes are running around with. It's not at the same level Stylish Roll JA Bonus, Shunka Shunran, Ilmegid, or Weak Bullet have been, and plenty of whining about how broken those are went on.

There's a big difference between really good and broken. Please keep that in mind before throwing out broken in the direction of everything that stands out on its own.

[n_n]

Only people who don't play IR say stupid shit like this.
IR should have been completely separate from EQs... They could have made it so there's a chance for IR to occur during EQ 'down time' (2~3 hours on average iirc) ... As expected, SEGA does not know what they're doing with this game. :-)

[NoiseHERO]

Only people who don't play IR say stupid shit like this.

Right? These are ultra fun with hax on.

[Maenara]

Don't see how Zondeel is any more broken than some of the stuff other classes are running around with. It's not at the same level Stylish Roll JA Bonus, Shunka Shunran, Ilmegid, or Weak Bullet have been, and plenty of whining about how broken those are went on.

There's a big difference between really good and broken. Please keep that in mind before throwing out broken in the direction of everything that stands out on its own.

Right. The only thing actually 'wrong' with Zondeel is that it fills two niches at once. It collects all enemies into a single point, then it KEEPS them there. Keeping enemies stationary should be filled by a different technique IMO.

[gigawuts]

Right. The only thing actually 'wrong' with Zondeel is that it fills two niches at once. It collects all enemies into a single point, then it KEEPS them there. Keeping enemies stationary should be filled by a different technique IMO.

Yep. This is my issue with it. It turns single-target damage into multi-target damage by condensing enemies into one single location.

There are others issues to tackle, sure, but this one is game-shaping.

[LonelyGaruga]

Right, except Zondeel doesn't keep enemies stationary. It just has a strong pull, an enemy moving fast enough can escape. Jet pack wolves are most obvious, but there's actually a good number. Even more enemies can continue moving around in Zondeel, they just get pulled back by Zondeel after they're done moving.

Even so, how would you go about changing it? If you make it an instant pull then people can just Razan to knock enemies down and get a similar effect. Of course, most enemies are instantly slaughtered after getting Zondeel'd so Razan isn't even strictly necessary. Lowering its duration won't matter because the enemies are already getting hit by the time it ends. Weakening the suction won't actually do anything either.

Calling it broken is one thing, but if you want it nerfed, a reasonable idea for how to nerf it would naturally be necessary.

[NoiseHERO]

Right, except Zondeel doesn't keep enemies stationary. It just has a strong pull, an enemy moving fast enough can escape. Jet pack wolves are most obvious, but there's actually a good number. Even more enemies can continue moving around in Zondeel, they just get pulled back by Zondeel after they're done moving.

Even so, how would you go about changing it? If you make it an instant pull then people can just Razan to knock enemies down and get a similar effect. Of course, most enemies are instantly slaughtered after getting Zondeel'd so Razan isn't even strictly necessary. Lowering its duration won't matter because the enemies are already getting hit by the time it ends. Weakening the suction won't actually do anything either.

Calling it broken is one thing, but if you want it nerfed, a reasonable idea for how to nerf it would naturally be necessary.

Bruh we friends now, das it.

[Maenara]

Ideal nerf: Each use of Zondeel affects a given enemy only once. Realistic nerf: Anything else.

[qoxolg]

Ideal nerf: Each use of Zondeel affects a given enemy only once. Realistic nerf: Anything else.

That wouldn't solve a thing. Maybe limit the amount of enemies (something like 4) that can be pulled in or give it a 50/50 RNG


Don't see how Zondeel is any more broken than some of the stuff other classes are running around with. It's not at the same level Stylish Roll JA Bonus, Shunka Shunran, Ilmegid, or Weak Bullet have been, and plenty of whining about how broken those are went on.

There's a big difference between really good and broken. Please keep that in mind before throwing out broken in the direction of everything that stands out on its own.

I don't know if you ever played with another melee techer as another class, but thats exactly what Giga is getting at, because he regularly plays with me when I run melee Techer. SHAQ's become a borefest for all other players because all mobs just melt before their eyes. When one player can make all other players pointless to be there, it is pretty much a broken mechanic. You could see Zondeel as the Weak Bullet for mobbing. The only reason Zondeel hasn't become the next Shunka, is because the player base seems to have no clue about how good it is.

Don't get me wrong, for solo play melee techer is a lot of fun, but this game is supposed to be played with other players, so a bit of balance would be fair.

[Selphea]

They could be making mobs that troll you for using Zondeel in XH/UQ. Like electric Dagans with AI to look for lightning fields and detonate them in your face, Dinians that pop Katana Combat Escape once you get in melee range, Spardans that drop Upper Trap in their wake when pulled or Goldrahdas that Rodeo Drive their way out.

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't know if you ever played with another melee techer as another class, but thats exactly what Giga is getting at, because he regularly plays with me when I run melee Techer. SHAQ's become a borefest for all other players because all mobs just melt before their eyes. When one player can make all other players pointless to be there, it is pretty much a broken mechanic. You could see Zondeel as the Weak Bullet for mobbing. The only reason Zondeel hasn't become the next Shunka, is because the player base seems to have no clue about how good it is.

Don't get me wrong, for solo play melee techer is a lot of fun, but this game is supposed to be played with other players, so a bit of balance would be fair.

Did it occur to you that the enemies are the problem, and not Zondeel? Never mind the fact that wand damage is good now. This wasn't a complaint before EP3, that's for sure.

For the record, every single ranged class, and every 12 player MPA, doesn't have the issues you describe with Techer dominating everything. SHAQs aren't the only quest type in the game. Hell, back when VHAQs were the big thing, ranged classes were exclusively dominating AQs. If you played Hunter or Fighter, you used a Gunslash or you couldn't do anything in a burst. Ranger and Force completely dominated AQs and were never nerfed.

Techer's dominance is nothing compared to what those two had. It's not a very good argument for nerfing anything about it.

[Shadowth117]

give it a 50/50 RNG


Yes, lets literally fuck force TA so please no.

Honestly, the real problem with this tech is it sucks utterly everything inward. If you want to nerf it, make the bigger enemies or something not get sucked in by it or not get sucked at all by uncharged and get sucked like from uncharged with charged. Its always been stupid to me that AOE has been outdone by this so often. Take away the ability to pull in nearly everything in the game and suddenly its a bit more reasonable.

...of course that's not something that would happen.

[Z-0]

SHAQs might not be the only quest type in the game, but along with VHAQs, why are you playing anything else? That being said, Techer doesn't really "dominate" when AQs are played properly for bursts, as Zondeel needs centre range, and is bad from corners and edges from a Wand. Talis Zondeel as a FO is much more effective, and Rangers are even more effective with Launchers.

Free Field and Arks Quests are generally a waste of time (drops are dirt cheap, only played to do DOs which are 30 minute - 1 hour chores), XQ is small enough for Zondeel to wreck it anyway, Tower Defense is also a Zondeel fest with proper spacing amongst players, as are 12-player Emergency Quests, although Zondeel is not strictly necessary when you have 12 players, but it makes everything much faster.

Zondeel in the game's current state is honestly the most broken thing in the game. I'd say it compares much worse to pre-nerf Shunka and Weak Bullet on the brokenness scale easily, but like LonelyGaruga says, I don't think we should go changing how Zondeel works, but how the enemies work instead.

Difference with Zondeel though is that it needs a tiny bit of thought. Not much, but it's not quite that mindless as other broken things have been / are.

Also the IR change: lol. Don't see what was hard about making them random and able to go over EQs anyway for those who played them.

[Aine]

a perfectly placed zondeel is the most satisfying thing in this game

why you gotta take all the fun out of the game

[un1t27]

a perfectly placed zondeel is the most satisfying thing in this game

why you gotta take all the fun out of the game


I agree

[Ce'Nedra]

a perfectly placed zondeel is the most satisfying thing in this game

why you gotta take all the fun out of the game

Because people always have to bitch at something :wacko:

[Kondibon]

a perfectly placed zondeel is the most satisfying thing in this game

why you gotta take all the fun out of the game


I agree


Because people always have to bitch at something :wacko:

http://i.imgur.com/c5uZQsE.gif

[Z-0]

a perfectly placed zondeel is the most satisfying thing in this game

why you gotta take all the fun out of the game
well I agree with you but people will always be complaining about balance so gotta compromise!

tip: Balance doesn't make things inherently fun.

[Kondibon]

tip: Balance doesn't make things inherently fun.Neither does imbalance, so I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make.

I understand that people look to different things in the game to have fun, but I'm a bit tired of entire mechanics and play styles being effectively removed because of a hand full of poorly designed skills, PAs, and Techs.

[NoiseHERO]

As in what's the point if no PVP.

Only time I care about balance without PVP present is when other classes are completely unplayable while others are the ONLY ones worth playing. <<

That's BARELY ever been a problem in easy star online, now even moreso after suganuma.

Once these random things get "balanced" people are probably just gonna nitpick @ whatever class will inevitably end up the most useful and say they're "TOO USEFUL MAKE US RELY ON SOMETHING ELSE.

IMO no matter what they change, this game's combat won't actually get more fun/better unless you delete the 2 years you spent playing it daily from your memory. Or they remake a whole new battle system from scratch. Otherwise, Dressup time superior race.

[gigawuts]

lol geez I knew people would be upset over the idea of losing their vacuum tech, but wow

Lonely: Yes, I always disliked that zondeel massively simplified the process of killing many things into being more like the process of killing one thing. This is hardly the first time I've piped up about it. Yes, suggestions were posted, and I even replied to one and added onto it. I'm sure you saw them, so I have to assume that remark was a disingenuous attempt to stoke some embers.

Other people: If you can't find the game fun in any other way than killing a dozen or more enemies at once in a single location then that speaks volumes about what you must be getting out of this game. Then again, the people who replied most vocally against me saying that were all the TA speedrun types, so I'm not very surprised. We already know you get very little out of this game yet continue to play it - most of you remind us frequently. Costumes? Most of you hate 'em. MPAs? Not as far as I've ever seen. EQs? Nothing but bad language there too. TAs, TAs, TAs; and zondeel helps you run that so you gotta lean on that crutch.

I don't go playing Street Fighter whining for years and years that it's a bad game and none of it appeals to me except the fun and wacky backgrounds. You don't go playing PSO2 whining for years and years that it's a bad game and none of it appeals to you except the boring and game-shaping shit with huge multipliers and a sustained suction tech you can use to completely trivialize anything that would have ever resembled a challenge or thought below the game's meta. Except, ah, nevermind, yes you do. Time to buy me some Street Fighter and whine about it (or not because I don't intentionally play games I find almost entirely unfun for some bizarro reason? I dunno just a thought, maybe you could do something you actually enjoy).

[Laxedrane]

If it's such a big deal to people in a multiparty situation.. Why not just make it Taboo? It was done to grenades and tornado dancers in PSU. Why not this here? Yeah EQs and MPAs your fucked but SHAQs in particular.. Why not ask that person to play a different style? Or just not use Zondeel every time? Yeah a nerf from Sega would satisfy one side and make the other side RAWR. At the very least it's something you can control within your group of friends or acquaintances..

[NoiseHERO]

because I don't intentionally play games I find almost entirely unfun for some bizarro reason? I dunno just a thought, maybe you could do something you actually enjoy.

wait really?

[gigawuts]

I always find it interesting how any time someone claims something is overpowered, that most people will admit really is if they take the time to think about it instead of buzzing about in the hivemind, that all of the same things are said...

"Just don't use it if you don't like it"
"We like it so it's automatically fine"
"It's the only thing that's fun in this game"
"The game won't be fun without it" (variant of above)
"It's not actually that great!"
"You can play fine without it so what's the big deal?" (variant of above)
"I don't see you coming up with any better ideas!"
"There's no PVP so who cares?"

Other greatest hits that haven't yet appeared include, but are not limited to:
"It's still in the game so the devs must think it's fine!"
"But you can't use X with it, so it's fine!"
"It isn't always the best thing to use, so it can't be too good any of the time at all"
"Have YOU ever worked in game design? Do YOU know why it's so hard? How could YOU know what's better?"
"But the class will be terrible without it!"
"If you need it you must just be bad. We don't need it."
"It's really hard to program computer so no changes should ever be made"
"They won't change it anyway so why say anything" (A compelling philosophical question: Why do we post at all?)

Any other fallacious distractions that I might have missed?


wait really?

Yeah we've been over this before, but you must have missed it while you were bursting blood vessels in your face from trying so hard to look like you don't care.

I have fun on PSO2. It's entertaining. I like space-barbies. Questions?

[Sizustar]

Wow...Alot of polarizing opinion on Zondeel~ And it's not even related to the update, but the skill itself.

But this change is also probabely to combat the new Wind/Lightning Tech, and it seems like they are taking player feedback, and doing change bit by bit.

AC item not clear in it's description, Zondeel being activated by other people, etc. And they did say they know of the GU inbalance and is still working on it.

[Xaeris]

People are getting heated over gam balance and I'm just happy I'll be able to run a lightning build and play with the sparkly techs without ruining everyone else's shit. Seriously though, the lightning line of techs is the most interesting and creative of them all. It was a shame that it was mostly useless because it messed with the photon Dyson.

[gigawuts]

Wow...Alot of polarizing opinion on Zondeel~ And it's not even related to the update, but the skill itself.

But this change is also probabely to combat the new Wind/Lightning Tech, and it seems like they are taking player feedback, and doing change bit by bit.

AC item not clear in it's description, Zondeel being activated by other people, etc. And they did say they know of the GU inbalance and is still working on it.

I don't really feel that strongly about it, I just find it really boring when something turns gameplay into an automated process of always-do-this-then-that. I felt the same way about fury stance and sroll ja. If everyone does it all the time...it just starts being redundant and restricting, and that's ignoring any other problems it might be causing. It's the best thing to do most of the time, reducing variety - which is usually the part I find entertaining.

For the most part I just have a passive dislike of things that do that in games. I still use it, I just think to myself it'd be nice if it wasn't the best thing to do 99% of the time. Most of the strongly worded things I say on it are in reply to opposition, which was actually way more vocal that I figured it would be. Most people I talk to about it actually feel the same way about zondeel, but I don't regularly chat with these people here so...

Also, I'm glad they're addressing GU some more. It needs a bit more oomph, but I'm getting the job done with it fine after the last update. The GM nerf was a bit heavy-handed but GMs do still do what they were intended to do - top you off. They're not the invulnguns they were before. That's good. I wish they'd do something with chains to make them more usable for more than one target. It'd be super cool if they gave GU a passive chain skill where everything you tag gets a chain you can raise with more hits, for a small max damage bonus (like 10-20%). Like what everyone had in PSP or PSZ.


People are getting heated over gam balance and I'm just happy I'll be able to run a lightning build and play with the sparkly techs without ruining everyone else's shit. Seriously though, the lightning line of techs is the most interesting and creative of them all. It was a shame that it was mostly useless because it messed with the photon Dyson.

This is one of the biggest flags that something is amiss with zondeel. Using bolt techs immediately gets people to tell you to use anything else. People on PSOW treat bolt techs like they should almost never be used because you might ignite a zondeel; even when zonde was super good people would give you shit to no end if you zapped their zondeel. Were you one-shotting trash with your zonde? Didn't matter, you still caught constant flak. Using bolt techs right now is considered by most to be a sign of amateurism because they're just okay most of the time, and you might trigger a zondeel.

It precludes the use of an entire element, and people don't think there's something wrong with that? Usually when someone wants this change it's not so other people can use bolt techs, it's so their zondeel isn't ignited - there's a difference in which thing they actually care about there.

[Sizustar]

People are getting heated over gam balance and I'm just happy I'll be able to run a lightning build and play with the sparkly techs without ruining everyone else's shit. Seriously though, the lightning line of techs is the most interesting and creative of them all. It was a shame that it was mostly useless because it messed with the photon Dyson.

You can now make Lightning NPC, and take Echo NPC along without her breaking Zondeel~

[NoiseHERO]

Yeah we've been over this before, but you must have missed it while you were bursting blood vessels in your face from trying so hard to look like you don't care.

I have fun on PSO2. It's entertaining. I like space-barbies. Questions?

Speaking of busting blood vessels, wonder if I have those 2013 chat logs I have of you stating otherwise in grave emotional detail.

But yeah no, actually didn't care enough to find out you enjoy this game till now, infact I've read none of your posts in this thread till your last one. Kinda no point, you guys all have the same "discussions" like 5 times a week.

I do care to question why people care about that balance thing ya'll was set with seganuma.

edit: OH YOU PUSSIN' OUT ON ME? WE NOT GONNA HAVE OUT OF NOWHERE PERSONAL BATTLE?

edit: oh re-read wrong joint.

[gigawuts]

Speaking of busting blood vessels, wonder if I have those 2013 chat logs I have of you stating otherwise in grave emotional detail.

But yeah no, actually didn't care enough to find out you enjoy this game till now, infact I've read none of your posts in this thread till your last one. Kinda no point, you guys all have the same "discussions" like 5 times a week.

I do care to question why people care about that balance thing ya'll was set with seganuma.

edit: OH YOU PUSSIN' OUT ON ME? WE NOT GONNA HAVE OUT OF NOWHERE PERSONAL BATTLE?

edit: oh re-read wrong joint.

I've always wondered when you'd eventually bring those up. I actually started to think you wouldn't - I was starting to figure maybe you were above that. I mean, really, who does something like that? Looks like maybe I was wrong.

If you really are the kind of person to do something like that, hey, I can't stop you. You're the one who decides that sort of thing. I have a policy of never revealing things about myself I don't expect to eventually get out, so hey - you want to do character assassination with 1 1/2 year old chatlogs, that's your prerogative and I won't really be bothered aside from being disappointed.

Anyone observing and wondering: The tl;dr is really rough time irl, very angsty, lashing out. I don't think anyone would be surprised by any of it considering my tone on psow. Its ability to discredit me is also based on the assumption that nothing can change over time, which is false (actually quite a lot of things have changed for the better - again, unsurprising given my tone), so there's that too. They're not even that big of a deal either, so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning them. Just me talking shit about PSO2 because I still wanted it to be PSO1 while dealing with some pretty harsh shit irl. I got past that (all of it, irl included) - hence having fun now. Any chatlogs I might have with you are safe though. I don't feel the need to do something like that.

Also interesting edits, you really must want to tussle if you're flipping like that over literally-nothing. Claiming to not read my posts is odd, too. I assumed you must have for you to like a post in response to mine that was A. wrong B. mostly irrelevant. And out of nowhere? Really? All I ever get from your posting is this ominous tension where you try super hard to appear to not care while passive-aggressively snarking at people (frequently me, hence assuming you must be reading my posts).

[Maenara]

What is going on. ?_?

[gigawuts]

Rock felt threatened so he went with the nuclear option and threatened to post chatlogs from 2013 or something.

It's not on topic anyway, don't worry.

[Xaelouse]

So what if the lightning + wind tech can possibly be charged by only needing to use one or the other tech element? Wind would just be spammed instead.
If that tech is actually worth wasting time on, then you wouldn't care if zondeel gets ignited or not since it would kill everything in the vicinity anyway. Braindead FO will still remain on the fire hype train.

[redroses]

I may be out of the loop because I don't play so much currently, but isn't/wasn't Zondeel very important for Techer gameplay? I always hear that without Zondeel, Techer is useles. For example, many people stating that they don't want Techers in Shironia because most of the enemies can't be sucked in my Zondeel.

Is Techer even good without Zondeel? I know Zondeel can be overpowered, but what is with missions where it's effect isn't as strong? I can especially see this being the case with the new UQs, as many enemies seem too big to be sucked in.

But like said, I am a bit out of touch with the game, so if Techer is still great without Zondeel, I guess Zondeel could be changed in the future, with the best option being making the suction not lasting that long, or maybe making it less powerful.

[NoiseHERO]

whoa nelly.


Rock felt threatened so he went with the nuclear option and threatened to post chatlogs from 2013 or something.

It's not on topic anyway, don't worry.

Man chatlogs was all I had to bring up to get you to blow up? Shoulda done that 2 days ago. o_o

All I was going at with your chatlogs was your overreactive rage you directed at this game, then quitting for I don't remember how long, actually I'd bring up less than you already explained yourself.

I now care more about you more than the zondeel thing. :0 I'm announcing what I actually care about to make it 100% clear what I'm using the topic to attack. It was complaining about things needing a nerf, now it's you.

And yeah I did go back to read your post to see if maybe I was wrong or something I might've misread/make sure I was right to assume it was safe you were in hostile mode. I was man enough to add the edits for hilarity(to myself mostly.)

[gigawuts]

Man chatlogs was all I had to bring up to get you to blow up? Shoulda done that 2 days ago. o_o

All I was going at with your chatlogs was your overreactive rage you directed at this game, then quitting for I don't remember how long, actually I'd bring up less than you already explained yourself.

I now care more about you more than the zondeel thing. :0 I'm announcing what I actually care about to make it 100% clear what I'm using the topic to attack. It was complaining about things needing a nerf, now it's you.

And yeah I did go back to read your post to see if maybe I was wrong or something I might've misread/make sure I was right to assume it was safe you were in hostile mode. I was man enough to add the edits for hilarity(to myself mostly.)

Blow up? That's my normal conversational tone. You see the kinds of posts I make all the time...that was pretty ordinary. What would've been strange is if I didn't go into detail.

Also I didn't quit, so much as lost any motivation to play and got Monster Hunter on 3DS so had something else to do. And boy did I, clocked in 330-ish hours in like 28 days. I ran out of easily-soloable stuff and new content came out so I started signing in to PSO2 again. If you're going to attack, attack accurately.

edit: To clarify, since I know a lot of my posts can seem hostile when they're not meant to be (they're usually just very plain and matter of fact, which is easy to read either way) - no, right now I'm not being hostile. I wasn't really in the first place. That was casual ribbing, which I do with basically everybody. Honestly, I don't feel compelled to be hostile about anything like 99% of the time these days. It doesn't stop people from thinking I am though...

[Aine]

Other people: If you can't find the game fun in any other way than killing a dozen or more enemies at once in a single location then that speaks volumes about what you must be getting out of this game. Then again, the people who replied most vocally against me saying that were all the TA speedrun types, so I'm not very surprised. We already know you get very little out of this game yet continue to play it - most of you remind us frequently. Costumes? Most of you hate 'em. MPAs? Not as far as I've ever seen. EQs? Nothing but bad language there too. TAs, TAs, TAs; and zondeel helps you run that so you gotta lean on that crutch.

I don't go playing Street Fighter whining for years and years that it's a bad game and none of it appeals to me except the fun and wacky backgrounds. You don't go playing PSO2 whining for years and years that it's a bad game and none of it appeals to you except the boring and game-shaping shit with huge multipliers and a sustained suction tech you can use to completely trivialize anything that would have ever resembled a challenge or thought below the game's meta. Except, ah, nevermind, yes you do. Time to buy me some Street Fighter and whine about it (or not because I don't intentionally play games I find almost entirely unfun for some bizarro reason? I dunno just a thought, maybe you could do something you actually enjoy).

what

there's a difference between whining about a game as it is and complaining about what the game would be like if you removed A, B and C, where A, B and C are the only things you enjoy about it

you don't have to like every single aspect of the game, if there's something you enjoy enough and it's a significantly large enough part of the game that's a perfectly valid reason to keep playing

in any case i wasn't even talking about speedrunnin' and efficiency, i was talking about the pure visceral pleasure of getting a meaty hit onto multiple enemies

[Sizustar]

Maybe you two should take your arguement ingame, pm or private chat?
Or just agree to disagree?

http://i.imgur.com/4mv47wu.jpg

[LonelyGaruga]

Lonely: Yes, I always disliked that zondeel massively simplified the process of killing many things into being more like the process of killing one thing. This is hardly the first time I've piped up about it. Yes, suggestions were posted, and I even replied to one and added onto it. I'm sure you saw them, so I have to assume that remark was a disingenuous attempt to stoke some embers.

There's nothing specifically wrong with Zondeel enabling that. Zondeel isn't even the only vacuum effect in the game, got things like Gravity Bomb and Chaos Riser too.

None of the suggestions for dealing with Zondeel that involve changing how Zondeel works would actually fix anything. There are two sides to PvE balance. The enemies also have to be looked at. In that sense, I'm specifically talking about adjustments to Zondeel, as opposed to enemies. Any suggestions about enemies are far more sensible than nerfs to Zondeel, because they actually do something.

[gigawuts]

what

there's a difference between whining about a game as it is and complaining about what the game would be like if you removed A, B and C, where A, B and C are the only things you enjoy about it

you don't have to like every single aspect of the game, if there's something you enjoy enough and it's a significantly large enough part of the game that's a perfectly valid reason to keep playing

in any case i wasn't even talking about speedrunnin' and efficiency, i was talking about the pure visceral pleasure of getting a meaty hit onto multiple enemies

I like it too, but we're talking about something that helps trivialize almost everything, and is considered by most to be a required part of almost every tactic in typical gameplay (emphasis on "typical," as yes in TAs when you get it down to perfection other moves are absolutely better and required for the best times - TA speedrunning isn't really what I'm talking about either when I say zondeel is an issue.)

In the hands of a techer, 1-2shotting even goldrahdas becomes possible if there are enough. Now, yes, the issue there isn't only zondeel. Techer shouldn't have uncapped quadratic damage (a cap of 4-5 explosions would be good IMO, but that's up for a different debate and still very strong).

I just dislike how zondeeling groups is just the norm for the same reason I dislike how sroll JA was just the norm. It's the go-to thing, that everyone does, that is virtually never an inherently a bad thing to do - it's become a near-mandatory step, and I dislike those because they become redundant and reduce variety. If everyone is using it constantly, why bother having it? Design the game so it's not needed, to let players experiment more and have more options. Now, clearly zondeel shouldn't be used sometimes, like if mizer exposes its core zondeel can fuck things up (among a number of other scenarios, not to mention when enemies can't even be vacuumed). The rest of the time...almost nobody whines when people are using zondeel, but they frequently do when nobody's using it.

Ultimately, I feel like players' attachment to zondeel is a byproduct of items being so rare, which makes them want to do everything as fast as possible and get as many kills as possible. That means anything that enables you to kill a ton of enemies at once is going to be used as much as possible. That is never going to be changed, and I understand it, but I still don't have to like zondeel for what it does. Obviously it would still be used regardless of item rarity because it's a good tactic to condense enemies for safety from them and killing them, but man people got real defensive about it and I think that's the central reason why - everybody has gottagofast syndrome.

Maybe you two should take your arguement ingame, pm or private chat?
Or just agree to disagree?

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/4mv47wu.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

I almost PMed him asking wtf was up, but I'm pretty sure that topic is over anyway.
There's nothing specifically wrong with Zondeel enabling that. Zondeel isn't even the only vacuum effect in the game, got things like Gravity Bomb and Chaos Riser too.

None of the suggestions for dealing with Zondeel that involve changing how Zondeel works would actually fix anything. There are two sides to PvE balance. The enemies also have to be looked at. In that sense, I'm specifically talking about adjustments to Zondeel, as opposed to enemies. Any suggestions about enemies are far more sensible than nerfs to Zondeel, because they actually do something.

I never said Zondeel was the only component in this, just that I found it to be an issue. You'll never, ever, ever find one issue that you can address and suddenly fix everything. Stop acting like the united states congress.

[LonelyGaruga]

Whole thing is sounding like "I don't like it, so I want it gone".

Oh well.

[gigawuts]

Whole thing is sounding like "I don't like it, so I want it gone".

Oh well.

Well, yes, that's typically how balance discussions go.

I dislike this school of design. I don't like it when a game is reduced to everyone going for the build of the month or the tactic of the month because it is simply so much better than any alternatives, and I don't like it when a single tactic is effective in so many scenarios because it lets you control enemy movement for such a long period of time (and seriously - zondeel's duration is long for what it is and costs, and it's possible to spam it continuously and reliably unlike other vacuum moves which are either pulse suctions [sazan], require damage to get good range and are a single pulse of suction [chaos riser], or are on a cooldown on a single class that requires SP to unlock [gravity bomb]) and lets players consistently use their most powerful attacks on a very small and focused point.

If you do like that then clearly we're going to clash. This really does boil down to being a matter of opinion. I don't disrespect your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

[Jaqlou Swig KING]

Issue with Zondeel
- It's extraordinarily cost efficient for how amazing it's effect is, that's it.

Issue with with what Zondeel is used on
- They in no way, shape, or form, currently have the AI required to properly punish Zondeel in the current game.

Thats mostly me vastly oversimplifying things, but I rather just get to the point. Anyway, fixing the latter issue is optimal, as it would also fix quite a few other problems with this game, that the enemies slow and incompetent, don't punish or discourage you for being a spammy twat at all, and improved enemy competence would offer a wider variety of ways to approach a mob situation without relying upon a one method trumps all deal. Nerfing one thing doesn't improve the game design anywhere near as well as fixing something universally broken...Stupid and predictable enemies.

Just my $0.02, but who asked me. :wacko:

[Xaelouse]

I feel people here are blowing zondeel out of proportion.
AI can't properly punish zondeel from a talis, as they simply wont be in range to do so.
Zondeel outside of FO and TE is nearly a waste of PP and time.
All they can do is throw in more suction-resistant enemies to completely ruin the one trick pony.

[pkemr4]

>people bitch about other people igniting there zondeel in TeeDee
>sega fixes that
>people now bitch about it being brokon
never change Pso-w

[Gama]

I may be out of the loop because I don't play so much currently, but isn't/wasn't Zondeel very important for Techer gameplay? I always hear that without Zondeel, Techer is useles. For example, many people stating that they don't want Techers in Shironia because most of the enemies can't be sucked in my Zondeel.

Is Techer even good without Zondeel? I know Zondeel can be overpowered, but what is with missions where it's effect isn't as strong? I can especially see this being the case with the new UQs, as many enemies seem too big to be sucked in.

But like said, I am a bit out of touch with the game, so if Techer is still great without Zondeel, I guess Zondeel could be changed in the future, with the best option being making the suction not lasting that long, or maybe making it less powerful.

zndeel is usefull to kill trash mobs, shironia isnt hard for techer, if a a techer only focuses on zondeel, its a waste of potential, techer is very flexible.

[Sizustar]

>people bitch about other people igniting there zondeel in TeeDee
>sega fixes that
>people now bitch about it being brokon
never change Pso-w

I think this is the only community community complaining about the change, Chinese and Japanese community are pretty positive of it, and welcome it, since it now means that Fo/Te when using the new Tech won't ignite it.

[Xaelouse]

Well techer will just resort to being a shittier FO or a shittier FI if they can't zondeel, depending on your build.

[gigawuts]

>people with one opinion talk
>people with another opinion talk
>I, pkemr4, don't understand that different people are different
never change Pso-w

fixed

[BIG OLAF]

The hell happened in here over the course of the day? One of PSO-Ws most avid "I-don't-carers" drops some hot blackmail, and other people disagree with common sense.

[Dnd]

I think this is the only community community complaining about the change, Chinese and Japanese community are pretty positive of it, and welcome it, since it now means that Fo/Te when using the new Tech won't ignite it.
This was the first post in here I read, why doesn't this shock me precisely.

[Xaelouse]

I think this is the only community community complaining about the change, Chinese and Japanese community are pretty positive of it, and welcome it, since it now means that Fo/Te when using the new Tech won't ignite it.

If the tech is actually good, it shouldn't matter if it ignites zondeel or not as it's already clearing the entire field...

[NoiseHERO]

Blow up? That's my normal conversational tone. You see the kinds of posts I make all the time...that was pretty ordinary. What would've been strange is if I didn't go into detail.

Also I didn't quit, so much as lost any motivation to play and got Monster Hunter on 3DS so had something else to do. And boy did I, clocked in 330-ish hours in like 28 days. I ran out of easily-soloable stuff and new content came out so I started signing in to PSO2 again. If you're going to attack, attack accurately.

edit: To clarify, since I know a lot of my posts can seem hostile when they're not meant to be (they're usually just very plain and matter of fact, which is easy to read either way) - no, right now I'm not being hostile. I wasn't really in the first place. That was casual ribbing, which I do with basically everybody. Honestly, I don't feel compelled to be hostile about anything like 99% of the time these days. It doesn't stop people from thinking I am though...

lol so you always talk like that?