Aynone else want these XH EQs...

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

To be maps players can MPA at will?

Between ult not dropping lvl17 disks nearly as often as it should (and when it does, it seems enemies drop specific common disks of your current class outside of the ult-specific disks, instead of the whole category), and everything else desireable outside of ult not being farm-able whenever you want is like sega telling us when to play again as if scheduled EQs weren't bad enough at doing that.

Take (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%93%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3% 82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB) these (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%82%A2%E3%82%BF%E3%83%83%E3%82%B7%E3% 83%A5%E3%83%8B%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF) for example. Even when we get XH nab EQ, the only way we're seeing the opportunity to kill XH banthers is in that EQ, unless they make it a map we can do whenever we want. Rare triggers for XH boss farming is out of the question.

I've just hit the 'afk till EQ' phase again since they buffed PAs at their final level again, the real sources of disks, and greater variety of drops is locked behind EQ schedules more than ever before. Ult quickly became the least rewarding of all the content they're putting in.

How do japanese players see ult when it comes to effort:reward/reasons to do it? Do they want XH maps we can at least use rare boss triggers in that's not tied to an EQ as well?

[Xaelouse]

Ult devolved into just spamming anga for his 13*s. During those times that you're afk, you should be joining those locked MPAs to instantly fight an anga, then join the next one. The quest itself doesn't matter: Only Anga does.
Since 13* are current strongest weapons in the game, I dont think they care about much else. The XH quests that gives ton of EXP/excubes/higher disc levels/ultimate buster weapons are the only way to break people out of the 13* search, so they should stay as EQs.
This game is in an awful state right now, and this time it's actually intended to be this way.

[un1t27]

Ult devolved into just spamming anga for his 13*s. During those times that you're afk, you should be joining those locked MPAs to instantly fight an anga, then join the next one. The quest itself doesn't matter: Only Anga does.
Since 13* are current strongest weapons in the game, I dont think they care about much else. The XH quests that gives ton of EXP/excubes/higher disc levels/ultimate buster weapons are the only way to break people out of the 13* search, so they should stay as EQs.
This game is in an awful state right now, and this time it's actually intended to be this way.

Did that a for a few days an got bored fast. This game is almost not even worth the time anymore if it continues to be this way.

[Shinmarizu]

I was discussing with a few people about this, and we agreed that it would have been much better if a few dungeons got XH now, then in a week or so, another bunch would, Repeat until all the current dungeons are XH. It would have taken a little while, sure, but it would be much faster than the slow dripfeed we're getting now.

Didn't Sega try to get people to play more than just TACO spam (by shifting the players' income generation from Klotho spam to Faina spam)? Feels like they've undone all that by timegating the most desireable content for players right now.

UQ doesn't count here. Like other posters have mentioned, it's Anga spam and almost nothing else. Farm for your favourite *12/13 and Anga fodder, and once you're done, there is no reason to go back.

[Reyva]

Hmm, that bad eh? I was hoping when all this crap came out we could return to the good ol PSU/PSO days where we had a good time, but it seems like Segac keeps getting things ass backwards in several aspects, not just difficulty.

As I expected from pos-world and before this update happened that it wouldn't turn out to be no good. Guess I'll just play Fashion Star Online 2 every now and then and once in a blue moon do a few random runs and log off. Reminds me of how PSU turned out with everyone playing White Beast Universe all the time.

Then again, maybe everyone on pos-world is exaggerating and ULT is totally awesome and so is the rest of the update heh. Its so amazing that each and every person is hardcore playing PSO2 the entire weekend.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

They planned to make hunting anything even more annoying than ever before?

I mean... seriously? I have a hard time believing that, and it's equally hard to get pissed because this is SEGA and I'm more of the mind that "I shoulda've expected this from them".

Ult is just the worst alternative for anything from exp, and disks, to drop variety. I think the worst thing is that they're dripfeeding the new difficulty most of all and tell players when to log on to experience it. I'd be happy with XH free fields so people could farm what they want, when they want, and have a use for rare boss triggers again rather than ult or bust...

[cheapgunner]

I feel the same way. I like UQ and XH but it seems kinda wierd to put both out at the same time. It makes 12* kinda pointless when 13* weps outclass them. UQ should have been on the back burner and XH EQs should have come out in 2-3 at a time rather than what we have now. And if your luck is terrible at getting top quality rares then your gonna be stuck waiting for XH to pop up for those 11/12* rares or hoping endlessly for 13* rares from Anga.

I would rather have a new R-atk/T-atk hybrid class come out as opposed to UQ imho.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Feels like they've undone all that by timegating the most desireable content for players right now.

UQ doesn't count here. Like other posters have mentioned, it's Anga spam and almost nothing else. Farm for your favourite *12/13 and Anga fodder, and once you're done, there is no reason to go back.

Pretty much, except now there's no way to get the most desirable basic things from the most basic of enemies than to wait for an EQ like lvl17 disks or the 11*s I linked earlier.

And now I have to choose to give my HU exp+chance of holding current 17, or try to get sakura end 17 as my BR which doesn't need more exp this urban EQ. I can't get them anywhere else! Thanks sega.

[sol_trigger]

ultimate quest is shit

[Shinmarizu]

IMO UQ is fun; there's something different in fighting mobs and bosses that do not instantly melt upon contact with their kryptonite, there has to be some teamwork or cooordination for things to go smoothly (and by that I say I have yet to have a smooth run through UQ; lots of explosions, red numbers, chaos and death icons), and there are new shiny weps and disks.....

Except there isn't much payoff. The drop rates for anything are abysmal - this promotes the burning up of rare boosters. XP gain is terrible - I get more XP running the usual EQs, or even farming XH Arms than this.

Yes, the lack of rares would eventually be solved by trying harder/repeatedly, but how much time does SEGA think we want to spend getting next to nothing?

So yeah, I like UQ, but once my business is done there, I won't play it anymore. This is a huge problem; how many quests has this game released that we just stop playing after a while?

[EvilMag]

My problem I have with the whole Ultimate and XH shit is the dripfeeding.

2 EQs per update for XH? Are you fucking serious? Ultimate is worse. I can predict we'll have to either till either late spring/early summer to finally get all the planets for Ultimate if we have to wait for 2 months to get Lillipa.

[BIG OLAF]

That makes me curious as to when Ult. Caves (or whichever is next) is getting released.

SEGA did say they wanted PSO2 to have "10 years of content." They just never specified how it would actually be a small amount, and just dragged out beyond comprehension.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

That makes me curious as to when Ult. Caves (or whichever is next) is getting released.

SEGA did say they wanted PSO2 to have "10 years of content." They just never specified how it would actually be a small amount, and just dragged out beyond comprehension.

:argh:

[Selphea]

PSO2's progression seems pretty good for an F2P game.

In the 3 months I've been playing I've seen more content than Champions Online or Secret World has had for the year.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

PSO2's progression seems pretty good for an F2P game.

In the 3 months I've been playing I've seen more content than Champions Online or Secret World has had for the year.

Thing is sega is sitting on the already-made content just to dripfeed it. This is slow conditioning I'm seeing here.

They used to give every weapon/element their new PA/tech all at once.

Then they started putting them out in intervals.

Now they're doing it with quest difficulty transition.

I'm sure they're just testing what they can get away with when it comes to dripfeeding.

Still don't know who's bright idea was it to time-gate this stuff behind the EQ schedule of all things.

[Maenara]

Well I don't know, would you even run Fang Banther EQ on XH if you could run XHAQ or Forest XH? Volcanic Guerillas on XH? Some of the EQs are so shitty because they offer nothing you can't get outside of a time-gate elsewhere. Let's ignore the fact that Volcanic Guerillas, along with Desert Guerillas, is the laziest EQ in the game. No objective, literally just 'fight enemies until time's up!'. The EQ is little more than a call to arms to a free field MPA.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Well I don't know, would you even run Fang Banther EQ on XH if you could run XHAQ or Forest XH? Volcanic Guerillas on XH? Some of the EQs are so shitty because they offer nothing you can't get outside of a time-gate elsewhere. Let's ignore the fact that Volcanic Guerillas, along with Desert Guerillas, is the laziest EQ in the game. No objective, literally just 'fight enemies until time's up!'. The EQ is little more than a call to arms to a free field MPA.

Thing is we don't have those alternatives right now, so we have no choice but to wait on scheduled ones, or sit there afk and hope for a random XHEQ. I'd gladly welcome them though.

[Saagonsa]

Ult devolved into just spamming anga for his 13*s. During those times that you're afk, you should be joining those locked MPAs to instantly fight an anga, then join the next one. The quest itself doesn't matter: Only Anga does.
Since 13* are current strongest weapons in the game, I dont think they care about much else. The XH quests that gives ton of EXP/excubes/higher disc levels/ultimate buster weapons are the only way to break people out of the 13* search, so they should stay as EQs.
This game is in an awful state right now, and this time it's actually intended to be this way.

Or you could play ult the normal way and have fun

[The Walrus]

But Ult isn't fun regardless of what you do.

Besides, this is a loot hunting game so people are naturally going to do stuff like that if only the boss gives good loot.

[Mattykins]

I really wish Ult was more like AQs in execution; a party of 4 going through a really beefed-up version of a field then fighting a boss. Instead, we pretty much got a shitty Atrocious Ocean with Ult mobs that results in consistently clogged XH/SH blocks and that I have to do in an MPA full of undergeared strangers who still think it's okay to use 9*s and under in higher difficulties :V

[Rakurai]

It would also be nice if the normal non-Darker enemies in UQs dropped things other then outdated 11* weapons and excube fodder.

They feel like a waste of time when you know that only the bosses have anything you'd want, but you're unfortunately forced to deal with them if you want more ETs to pop.

[BIG OLAF]

So, regular mobs don't drop 12*s or anything?

I wouldn't know, since I've gotten nothing from the Ultimate runs I've done.

[Z-0]

Regular mobs only drop 10/11*s, which are dirt cheap. All 12*s and 13*s come from bosses (with all the 13*s coming from Anga).

Weird design.

[Shinmarizu]

The 12* weapons only drop from the Naberian bosses; the 13*s only drop from Anga. And even they seem to have garbage 10* drops. The little mobs are useless aside from their ability to crush you.

edit: Ninja'd.

[Rakurai]

The 10* drops come from everything. They're basically like red/blue weapons, except several times rarer.

Only the darkers drop anything special as far as the normal enemies go, which are 11* versions of the clone weapons that have a nice silver/black color scheme. Their stats are good enough to make them the best anti-Darker weapons available at the moment by a significant margin.

[TaigaUC]

I haven't been doing XH or UQ. They are both boring as nuts to me.

PSO2 needs to stop focusing on "incentive to play" and focus on "being fun to play". Same old shit with a "stronger equipment" reward is not fun.
I mean, I could just wait for the next set of "stronger equipment" instead. Especially because it'll render whatever we're doing now obsolete and pointless.

Give me a reason to actually play right now, SEGA.

At least Magatsu looks like it'll be fun. But it'll be an annoying EQ again. Fucking EQ system.
TD3 is still the most fun I have in PSO2... when people aren't playing like shit, anyway.

Speaking of people being shit, I was thinking today that the primary reason most people are shit is probably because they can't afford to grind stuff to max.
That's a serious game design issue. The welfare 11 star Jig weapons are sorta useless because most people aren't going to be able to get them past +4 or so.
13 stars are a step in the right direction because you can use them off the bat without grinding, but I can't imagine everyone being able to get their hands on those easily.

[LordKaiser]

The worst thing about this update is that grinding got nerfed so people trade AC items on +7 skip etc.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

PSO2 needs to stop focusing on "incentive to play" and focus on "being fun to play".

Well that's a bit subjective. I find the game's combat inherently fun. The shortcoming really is how they handle content, which involves incentive to play.

As you've said:



At least Magatsu looks like it'll be fun. But it'll be an annoying EQ again. Fucking EQ system.

Them putting the carrot on the stick to keep me playing behind the walls of fort knox, and giving me a few short spaces of time to even look at the fort doors is what really bugs me with how they're handling XH. They're putting more stuff than ever before behind those walls, namely the large array of XH level weapons from the most basic of enemies, and PA upgrades. SH was not so badly time gated like this unless we specifically wanted falz drops. Almost everything else could be farmed in your own time, at your own pace. They put more of an incentive on EQ watching than ever before.

tldr: SEGA is now telling us when we have the privilege to farm XH bosses. No XH free fields=rare boss triggers are worthless in XH. The freedom we had to farm ginne/burn drall/nepto with triggers when we wanted back in SH does not exist in XH as long as they're EQ only.
As for disks, common disks are fixed drops from specific enemies. Want a common lvl17 PA that doesn't drop from any enemy in ult, or urban? Either get lucky with a green box, or wait for the next EQ. The salt in the wound? Most melee PAs were given 10% more damage at lvl17 onry. I can't describe this as anything else but total shit. Somehow they made the dripfeed even worse.

[Achelousaurus]

I've just hit the 'afk till EQ' phase again since they buffed PAs at their final level again, the real sources of disks, and greater variety of drops is locked behind EQ schedules more than ever before. Ult quickly became the least rewarding of all the content they're putting in.
Amen ._.
It's often more fun to me to post here instead of actually playing the game.


Thing is sega is sitting on the already-made content just to dripfeed it. This is slow conditioning I'm seeing here.

They used to give every weapon/element their new PA/tech all at once.

Then they started putting them out in intervals.

Now they're doing it with quest difficulty transition.

I'm sure they're just testing what they can get away with when it comes to dripfeeding.

Still don't know who's bright idea was it to time-gate this stuff behind the EQ schedule of all things.
Sega has no clue about how to make profits.
PSO2 is easily their most profitable product.
Instead of giving more content at a reasonable rate to keep people happy and playing, they dripfeed it to make it last longer, but in turn antagonize a lot of players who won't pay while they don't enjoy the game very much.
Sure, it lasts longer, but people will make it less and less profitable.


I haven't been doing XH or UQ. They are both boring as nuts to me.

PSO2 needs to stop focusing on "incentive to play" and focus on "being fun to play". Same old shit with a "stronger equipment" reward is not fun.
I mean, I could just wait for the next set of "stronger equipment" instead. Especially because it'll render whatever we're doing now obsolete and pointless.

Give me a reason to actually play right now, SEGA.

Yeah, all these tiny boost make me feel like I should just take an extended break until 13* passes are out or something, come back in 2017 and only log in once every 3 months to keep my account alive.


Speaking of people being shit, I was thinking today that the primary reason most people are shit is probably because they can't afford to grind stuff to max.
That's a serious game design issue. The welfare 11 star Jig weapons are sorta useless because most people aren't going to be able to get them past +4 or so.
13 stars are a step in the right direction because you can use them off the bat without grinding, but I can't imagine everyone being able to get their hands on those easily.
Nah.
Most people have crappy gear cause they are stupid and/or spend 99% of their money on costumes and accessories and/or never do tacos, which are now weekly and give a lot of money (h + shvh tas + xq cos are about 2.7 mil).

And 13* made a step in the wrong direction.
A huge step.
It's a rare, special kind of grinder and costs absurd amounts (even 12* may only cost 35k) BUT it is still extremely likely to fail.
Which means it's a lot more expensive than before. Sega of course didn't go the sensible, reasonable way of making you pay upfront a large nearly fixed amount so that you can't lose huge sums cause of the RNG anymore, but rather opted for the Sega™ way of wasting just more money than before.



As for disks, common disks are fixed drops from specific enemies. Want a common lvl17 PA that doesn't drop from any enemy in ult, or urban? Either get lucky with a green box, or wait for the next EQ. The salt in the wound? Most melee PAs were given 10% more damage at lvl17 onry. I can't describe this as anything else but total shit. Somehow they made the dripfeed even worse.
Yeah. It's not good that there are huge jumps in power for only a single lvl higher, but if we get one more level every year, this has to be worth it.

BTW, even some of the PAs cirno lists as "Common [class] Drop" are enemy specific?

[cheapgunner]

Yeah. It's not good that there are huge jumps in power for only a single lvl higher, but if we get one more level every year, this has to be worth it.

BTW, even some of the PAs cirno lists as "Common [class] Drop" are enemy specific?

What's annoying is that only melee is really worth the hunt for lvl 17 disks. Ranged and Tech disks are nigh useless since the boost isn't really noticeable. All Ulti. should have done is a 10% nerf for technic and ranged damage and give the disks all the same reasonable boosts.

As well as releasing lvls 18-20 as well. Drip feeding pa's one level at a time is absolute s***.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

BTW, even some of the PAs cirno lists as "Common [class] Drop" are enemy specific?

Go to swiki, and look at the non-rare PAs. Most of them drop from specific enemies. Killing certain enemies as a certain class will only yield their specific disks.

Of course it's slightly different in the XHEQs since everything can drop rare PAs, but from what I've seen, the common PAs remain under that same old rule (eg: I've gotten a half dozen thrillsplosion 17 disks from dagans in that EQ if they're not dropping a random rare-enemy PA as long as I was maining braver. I'd have to get lucky from kuclonadas, dark ragnes, or falz arm for sakura end 17, which means I have to wait for that 30 minute window to even have the opportunity to get a 10% damage upgrade to my bread and butter PA).

[isCasted]

PSO2 needs entirely different quest/lobby model, making which would require digging a hella lot in backend code of both server and client. People don't run usual free fields because block system prevents people from grouping up (people getting tired of free fields is indirectly connected to this problem). As a solution SEGA sees LQs, EQs and UQs, because cutting variety of stuff people can do makes people do same thing together (not minding the fact that block system still does its job at preventing people from playing with their friends by dividing "l33t" early block campers and "n00b" late block folks).


The most important (and easiest to execute) part of my big idea: EQ mehcanic (if it has to stay) has to be used for different purpose. SH EQs are just a fest of Excubes and EXP, XH EQ is a disc collection prayer - things that every player has to get to progress/grow and get more efficient. Right now EQs are a content of top priority because they are basically buffed regular quests. What they have to be is alternative. EQ have to offer something unique, and by that I mean - unique reason to prefer them over normal questing.

Here are some examples (not that they are perfect, but they're close enough to describe the idea):

1) Lead Border Breaker. This quest is basically a TA with 12 people, giving it a distinction from other quest types. At the end it also has a unique reward - Cougar NX drops fodders that allow an alternative way to customize gear, which people either like or don't. Fodder is also an alternative to Excubes as a way to make meseta (duh).

2) TD quests give 11* with unique potential which people might or might not use for their setups (at least TAers used crafted Kongou for dashing).

3) PSO2es EQs give weapons with unique properties like embedded PAs, T-ATK on melee and ranged weapons and plain multiclass instead of just being stronger (nevermind the fact that they are stronger is PSO2es - in PSO2 they are still "different").


What to do with "lazy" MPA EQs like Volcanic and Desert Guerillas? Just integrate them into free fields on higher difficulties somehow. It would make sense to give quests bigger variety of enemies and map layouts as difficulty goes up.

[LordKaiser]

Mobs are so useless in this quest that their only purpose is to waste your boosters. Is better to run around finding the boss fights.

[Rakurai]

Don't you need to clear enemies out in order for ETs to trigger, though?

I guess that doesn't explain how those Anga Fandarge search parties are able to find it so quickly with a small group, though. Maybe it's only ETs that spawn normal enemies that won't trigger until you kill stuff?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Enemy triggers are:

1- used on starting the quest from the bottom tab
2- triggers when the user walks to the icon on the map

We cannot use enemy triggers in EQs, and you can only use an enemy trigger of a boss that appears on that type of map (eg: you cannot use a rogbelt trigger on ult).

Again, we cannot farm what we want from XH until some unspecified time since there was no mention of XH free fields afaik. Trigger parties for XH bosses will not exist till further notice. RNG-ception and dripfeed has hit all new heights with XH being EQ only. This is the worst handled content update in years.

[Rakurai]

I was under the impression that the usual meaning of ET was emergency trial.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I was under the impression that the usual meaning of ET was emergency trial.

Oh oops I usually call em E-codes.

Well up to 3 ecodes can be on the map at a time, and I do think if there's way too many enemies on the map they will not occur.

They can happen whenever someone steps into a new coordinate grid, which is why the idiots that get chased by a boss needs to stop running and trigger more spawns/subbosses. Chicken dragon + 3 MMA rockbears is just stupidity. or even worse, the fking malmoths.

[Macman]

I don't understand why people care about XH when Ult (theoretically) drops better stuff and is more fun.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I don't understand why people care about XH when Ult (theoretically) drops better stuff and is more fun.

-newly buffed PA disks
-Weapons that have resale value
-'fun' is subjective

[cheapgunner]

I don't understand why people care about XH when Ult (theoretically) drops better stuff and is more fun.

The better drops are on bosses and you will be hard pressed to find the mobs giving you anything better than what you have imho. That and with the 12/13* rares being just introduced, you're gonna be farming a good while if your luck is terrible with their low drop rates. Then there certain pa disks that drop on XH EQs ' enemies than on Ulti. iirc.

[Hrith]

It would also be nice if the normal non-Darker enemies in UQs dropped things other then outdated 11* weapons and excube fodder.

They feel like a waste of time when you know that only the bosses have anything you'd want, but you're unfortunately forced to deal with them if you want more ETs to pop.Yeah, that is terrible design from PSU, so they could have learnt, really...

So far, PSO2 was all right in the 'only bosses drop good stuff area', but it has steadily been getting worse. Ultimate is very poorly designed in that aspect.

Gameplay-wise, I think the corruptions in Ultimate are poorly designed, they are far too cheap and will destroy rangers much more than any other class.
Also, it's cool to have strong, aggressive monsters with huge HP bars, but this mission was blatantly not tested as rangers. Most small monsters come after me when I play ranger, making the gameplay impossible, it does not matter how powerful ranger is when one cannot stand still for a split second or even put some distance between themselves and the enemies; something which does not happen as force =/

As for the 13* farming, noobs and tools who play games only for the rewards will always find a way to ruin the fun just to obtain a weapon they will then spend millions on to enhance fully and never use again. Those people are the real problem, SEGA is not.

The only thing I want from Ultimate forest is Chain Sawd, so I'll probably find all the other 12* and a few 13* before that happens...

[Z-0]

Yes, people are a problem because they do what they want to do in a video game which doesn't affect others at all.

If only I knew sooner! Maybe I wouldn't have been such a jerk a year ago...

[Maenara]

What I'm getting from this thread is that you guys want to get as powerful as fast as possible, rather than content to actually utilize the power in. Seems about right.

The game was the most fun when I was going through and unlocking areas for the very first time. Imagine if it didn't end with the Ruins field, it just kept going, Sanctum, Quarry, Coast, Seabed, Facility, Shiriona, Corrupt Forest, and so on. Imagine if there was no top and there was always a brand new fight waiting to be unlocked after a test of skill and power in the current one. You guys should be happy that you can only do EQs when you can because if you could spam it endlessly, you would, and then it wouldn't be fun anymore. The content dripfeed sucks but this is the only way you're going to be able to deal with it, and honestly, emergency quests add a pretty solid layer of immersion to the game that being able to do any time would remove.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

What I'm getting from this thread is that you guys want to get as powerful as fast as possible, rather than content to actually utilize the power in. Seems about right.

Miss the part about sega perpetuating the 'wait for EQs' mentality?

Something as simple as hunting rockbears of the highest level is going to be scheduled by SEGA. The problem with that is self-explanatory I think.

I'd rather not repeat it again, but when did they ever tell us "you can only do H/VH/SH quests at xxxx time" before? That's right. It never happened before. I know this game is all about the drip feed, but this is a whole new level of it they're doing here.

The day I can't kill the highest level oodans in this game after the content is released when I damn well please is a sign something is wrong.

[Z-0]

People want to get powerful as fast as possible, while being able to use that power in content (whether it be something like Time Attacks or trials such as Den or maybe something like Ultimate but with some sort of goal rather than just "run around for a bit until you clear").

You're making a false dichotomy, you can do both.

Also the EQ system is fucking garbage entirely. It should be removed, and replaced with meaningful content. Stuff doesn't get boring if it's good content, which is a point you seem to be missing.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

People want to get powerful as fast as possible, while being able to use that power in content (whether it be something like Time Attacks or trials such as Den or maybe something like Ultimate but with some sort of goal rather than just "run around for a bit until you clear").

You're making a false dichotomy, you can do both.

Also the EQ system is fucking garbage entirely. It should be removed, and replaced with meaningful content. Stuff doesn't get boring if it's good content, which is a point you seem to be missing.

Well now, you, and maenara helped me sum up a thought regarding game design quite nicely;

"Good content doesn't need a digital carrot on a stick that increases player performance to keep players playing"

[Z-0]

Well, I was replying to Maenara actually, but whatever. _(:3」∠)_

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Well, I was replying to Maenara actually, but whatever. _(:3」∠)_

I know you were. I read, and replied about it anyway.

[Xaeris]

I like the general idea of EQs. I dislike their current implementation. EQs should be a supplement to the main game, not a central attraction. I should be excited to see an EQ because it yields an extra opportunity to accomplish what I want to do, not the only opportunity to accomplish what I want to do. With maybe a handful of exceptions, there shouldn't be any items in an EQ that I can't acquire from someplace that's accessible to me 24/7. I'm okay with Elder and Loser having a few special shinies because hey, they're the big bads, but locking special shinies in Urban Recovery, and soon, Subdue Fang Banther, is just silly.

I should be able to play and hunt on my schedule, not the EQ schedule.

[Achelousaurus]

Also the EQ system is fucking garbage entirely. It should be removed, and replaced with meaningful content. Stuff doesn't get boring if it's good content, which is a point you seem to be missing.
Amen.
I hate it so much.
Our playstyle and playing time revolves around EQs mostly. There is very little incentive to play other quests atm besides SHAQs and these are often a nogo cause of the caps for which you have to play a different SHAQ or pay absurd amounts of meseta (700k for a single SHAQ worth of caps).
And even then, unless you have a high probability of being able to keep the risk, they are pointless.
Without high risk they are barely different from normal exploration.
I'd rather run VHAQs to get Modulator rather than a bunch of SHAQs with the very highly probability of not getting anything decent and not getting my risk very high and just running out of caps.

There are so many SHAQ / XQ boost days cause people don't play them nearly as much as intended.
Sega needs to remove the cost for playing them and maybe turn down the rewards a little, so that they are not exclusively for hunting specific things but are something you can just do whenever you feel like it.


Well now, you, and maenara helped me sum up a thought regarding game design quite nicely;

"Good content doesn't need a digital carrot on a stick that increases player performance to keep players playing"
Yeah, it's poor game design.
What's infuriating is that the game is inherently fun but sega fucks up the part after the basics so always it could be fun, but isn't.

[Magikarp]

Well now, you, and maenara helped me sum up a thought regarding game design quite nicely;

"Good content doesn't need a digital carrot on a stick that increases player performance to keep players playing"

You have completely and utterly missed the point of why online games exist in the first place. If this was a single player game you would play it until you've experienced all the content and then you would stop playing. If this was a single player game with additional online co-op, you would also stop playing the game when you've experienced all the content. This is an online game. The goal of every single online game in existence is to get people playing for a long time even after they've experienced all the content so they can pay the developers money and the developers can keep creating more content. The only way to do that is to have carrots on sticks for people so there is a purpose to running the same mission over and over again well after the initial fun has worn off.

It takes time to create new content in every game. Taking the carrots out will make people log on after each update, play for a few hours and then stop because they've done everything there is. Sounds like a great business plan.

[Z-0]

It doesn't matter what the business plan is. Yes, we get you want to keep people playing as long as possible regardless of it it's actually enjoyable for the consumer or not, but naturally the consumer wants to play as long as possible while still enjoying themselves, and attempting to achieve their own goals and milestones, rather than "carrots on a stick" which aren't guaranteed.

For example, I could play PSO2 TA until pigs fly after I've gotten all those "carrots on a stick", because it's content that the player wants to keep playing to achieve certain things. Now, this doesn't appeal to everyone naturally, but this is the sort of idea we're getting at.

I think everyone knows what the business plan of an online game is, we're not stupid and you're not helping by implying that.

[Keilyn]

Thanks for this thread.

I had stated this similar in another thread. The result was getting slammed and people acting like I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. Now this thread exists talking about the very same things I had mentioned before.

The reason the mentality is like this is because you forget the state of PSO-2...which is:

"PSO-2 is a Japanese-made local game in which the focus is real money transactions on costumes and cosmetics while encouraging the ever-so japan-cute mentality. One deals with in-game advertisements and even video advertisement. If you have a problem with typical drop-based dungeon crawlers, complain to SEGA....and they will kindly remind you that you have no rights from not being Japanese, and those not in Japan...even their own citizens living out of Japan have no rights"

It does not compare to Worlds of Warcraft where GOOD or BAD, the game sells and makes money. Around 3 - 4 million people bought the latest expansion released in the first twenty four hours. The expansion cancels and alters part of the story within Warcraft I, II, and III.

People are willing to pay the monthly fees for WoW, they are willing to buy the expansions. They are also willing to go to the conventions, just like I went to Anime Boston and saw a group of 40+ people actually cosplaying WoW characters together..

...While I find almost no one (I say almost no one....because one person played Nei) which once again...people cosplay characters from the first four games, and even fewer people think of PSO after the very bad service that SEGA has provided for its games.

So yeah, people can say everything they want about how good or bad PSO-2 is. All I truly know is that just like Phantasy Star Universe forced people into buying and playing multiple platforms to go through the entire story (different titles linked to the same universe of the story), PSO-2 is the very same way and to me....

...spending tons of money on the PC version so that you can throw a big "Fuck you" to PC users and make handheld shit to me is an example of isolating people. In fact not everyone is going to buy multiple platforms to experience the entire story and upon hearing that they will go elsewhere.

I love PSO-2, but I am not addicted to the game.
Thank God that Holiday Steam sales remind those who are willing to take a good hard look the joys or completely buying a cheap game that works on one platform and will always work on one platform. :P

EQs and Ultimate Mode (as much as I love ultimate mode) have been centralized...Simple as that...Simply put and that will not really change any time soon. :) It means this game is not going to go anywhere and regardless how I want to gear myself...these missions are MPAs and encouraged to be MPAs...meaning I will miss out on nothing. ^_^

Super Fun Game and very receptive to playing with others in teams and friendlist, but horrible implementations where the majority of Japanophiles who are feeling the same thing as I are going to tell me that "I don't understand because I am not Japanese." ^_^

[Magikarp]

but naturally the consumer wants to play as long as possible while still enjoying themselves, and attempting to achieve their own goals and milestones, rather than "carrots on a stick" which aren't guaranteed.

For the vast majority of players these goals and milestones are the items or "carrots". This is an RPG after all. Most players will only play through content a few times to experience it, have their fun and then only play longer to get those items. They're not trying to achieve anything, like becoming better at the game in terms of skill alone or getting faster times in TAs. You are an extreme minority. Taking out the carrots will only leave players such as yourself, which isn't sustainable.

Sega has done a good job with this game so far. I still run Elder and Luther because I find them fun, even though the chance of me getting any decent item from them is practically zero. But I am in the minority too, because most people who play online games don't even seem to care about fun and only care about obtaining items. How many times have you seen people complain and threaten quitting a game because their items they worked for became obsolete from a new patch that added new content? These people should be overjoyed that they've got brand new things to do, but all they care about are their items.


For example, I could play PSO2 TA until pigs fly after I've gotten all those "carrots on a stick", because it's content that the player wants to keep playing to achieve certain things. Now, this doesn't appeal to everyone naturally, but this is the sort of idea we're getting at.

I'm going to substitute the words "achieve certain things" here with "have fun" and go off that point instead if you don't mind, because I don't believe even a fraction of the people who play this game care about the same type of personal achievements you do.

Ult quests are their idea of fun content to do this patch, whether you personally think it's fun or not. Like all other games, sometimes they also add things that take very little time to create in order for people to have more stuff to do, even if that might not be necessarily all that enjoyable. XHs are filler, rehashed content. Would you'd rather nothing instead? You can't just convert these XH EQs into other brand new content because then that would take more time to create. All games rehash content. If you want only brand new, fun content all the time, expect bigger delays between updates.

[Remz69]

what are you trying to say ?

good game design and good business aren't mutually exclusive, like, at all, period.

you can very well design content with replay value that isn't the pinnacle of dreepfeed on top of not adding much if anything to the game, without it being worse from a business pov (far from it)

[Magikarp]

good game design and good business aren't mutually exclusive, like, at all, period.

Please point out where I said this. I said all online games require carrots on sticks to keep people playing. All of them. I did not say the design somehow can't be good because of that. I even said I thought Elder and Luther are well designed fights because I still find them fun months later. And TD. And XQs.



you can very well design content with replay value that isn't the pinnacle of dreepfeed on top of not adding much if anything to the game

What are Ultimate quests. That is the content they designed for this patch that is supposed to have replay value and is fun.

XH EQs are dripfeed that add nothing to the game aside from new items. Many games do this.

I repeat; Would you rather only Ultimate quests were added this patch and nothing else, instead? Because adding something else, something new, takes more time to create.

I'm literally repeating points I just made. You have two choices: You get Ultimate quests and something else brand new but have to wait longer for it. Or you get Ultimate quests and rehashed XH EQs right now.

Expecting there to be no rehashing of content in an online game is ridiculous.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Please point out where I said this. I said all online games require carrots on sticks to keep people playing. All of them. I did not say the design somehow can't be good because of that. I even said I thought Elder and Luther are well designed fights because I still find them fun months later. And TD. And XQs.


There's no problem if good content was the carrot on the stick, and not the digital performance enhancer. See the latter half of the my quote.

Why do most people play wow? The content is good, challenging, and fufilling to say 'I saw it, and did it while it was relevant/while it was hard/before it got nerfed''. Not just so their digital [sword of awesome] can hit for 100 more damage; It's just a means to an end. In PSO2 it is the end.

I may be striking at the very premise of PSO2, but the point remains that there is no content in the game worth playing very long if it weren't for exclusive drops, lots of cubes, or tons of exp. The digital performance enhancer keeps people playing rather than the content selling itself to some extent.

[Hrith]

lotsa stuffI'm not sure what you mean by your reply about how stupid people are not affecting others in any way.
If nubs only play emergencies or only spam Anga Fandarge for 13* weapons, that means it will be incredibly difficult for others to find parties in other game modes or mission types, how is that not affecting others?
Such rabble is what kills a game. I know a lot pf PSU players who quit because they could never find others to play a specific mission with them, since all the nubs would go to the 'better exp' mission of the moment.

When players idle in the lobby waiting for the next emergency, they're part of the problem, more than SEGA is. SEGA made a game with now fifteen areas, many game modes, all fun to play (okay, except TA).
Furthermore, when you ask such players if they at least enjoy emergency missions, they will usually reply they do not, but it's 'better exp'. So those people play 5% of the content of a game, they do not enjoy what they play, but they still play it for the sake of hitting a level cap? I don't know, I'd say play the other 95% and see if you like it...
Same people who will later complain the game lacks content and they have nothing to do.

I agree with your many points in general, and that content design is the main issue here. With emergency missions and whatnot, SEGA are - it seems - deliberately driving their playerbase away from their own content.

[The Walrus]

How are Time Attacks not fun?

[Magikarp]

Why do most people play wow? The content is good, challenging, and fufilling to say 'I saw it, and did it while it was relevant/while it was hard/before it got nerfed''. Not just so their digital [sword of awesome] can hit for 100 more damage; It's just a means to an end. In PSO2 it is the end.

I think your assumption of why people play WoW is off base, I think it's the same case for all online games including this one.

I'll give you an example, albeit anecdotal: In FFXIV they have a raid that has 4 bosses in total that is supposed to last people 6 months. It's difficult in that it takes people a while to win, even if the actual gameplay is completely mindless. Recently they've added an even harder version of the same fights called Savage Coil. It doesn't drop any new items that you can't find in the old, easier version of the fight. And because of that barely anyone does it. I'd actually like to try it myself, but it's too hard finding other people that want to do it as well considering the only thing you gain from doing it is fun. Fun is fine for me, but I am the minority.
By the way as I'm sure you know, there's more to items than just more damage; prestige and looks factor in as well. I wouldn't discount those as motivators.

My point is, I don't believe many people playing online games actually care about doing things for the fun of it past the first few times. I think in your WoW example people act the same way and only the item at the end matters. That's how it is in FFXIV, which is basically WoW lite. That's how it was in previous games I've played too.


I may be striking at the very premise of PSO2, but the point remains that there is no content in the game worth playing very long if it weren't for exclusive drops, lots of cubes, or tons of exp.

That's an online game for you. PvE content never lasts long. The carrot on a stick is necessary to drag it out and all games do it. People wouldn't do the regular version of Coil in FFXIV if there were no items to get from it. I know this because it already applies to the harder version, no one does that because there's no new items from it.


The digital performance enhancer keeps people playing rather than the content selling itself to some extent.

This I don't really agree with personally. I go into PSO2 never expecting any drops. I keep playing the game because I find it fun. I honestly don't bother checking to see what enemies drop what weapons most of the time because I never expect to get anything. Any trailers for new content like TD or new Falz fights interests me more than new trailers for FFXIV. I think in my case the content is selling itself to me quite well, because I know I'll be having more fun in PSO2 than FFXIV.

I think the games are more similar than you think. You might have an issue with the content being too easy in PSO2, which I think is the main difference between it and something like WoW or FFXIV. Player mindsets however I think are identical.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

My point is, I don't believe many people playing online games actually care about doing things for the fun of it past the first few times. I think in your WoW example people act the same way and only the item at the end matters. That's how it is in FFXIV, which is basically WoW lite. That's how it was in previous games I've played too.

So here's a question:

They cleared the content

The next thing they go after is drops

After they get the drops, what does it matter? They already did the content. Getting drops after the fact is something bored completionists do if there's no more content to tackle at the time.


That's an online game for you. PvE content never lasts long. The carrot on a stick is necessary to drag it out and all games do it. People wouldn't do the regular version of Coil in FFXIV if there were no items to get from it. I know this because it already applies to the harder version, no one does that because there's no new items from it.

The fact there's people that do it, and have done it for the challenge when savage coil drops nothing new works against you. Square didn't need to give players a chance at a digital performance enhancer as their carrot on a stick to encourage people to do savage coil, especially when you could get gear of equal Ilvl from hunts, or SC at the time, drops is arguably the last reason anyone had to do coil. SEGA needs to for PSO2 because so many quests boil down to 'run in a circle with 11 other people and kill stuff'.

[Magikarp]

So here's a question:

They cleared the content

The next thing they go after is drops

After they get the drops, what does it matter? They already did the content. Getting drops after the fact is something bored completionists do if there's no more content to tackle at the time.

You are assuming they do the content for the fun of it first and foremost and not for the items. I disagree and gave an example of where that doesn't happen. They won't clear the content in the first place if the items aren't there. The carrot on the stick is the reason why more people do coil than savage coil. If the majority of people cared about having fun first and foremost then the majority of people would be doing savage coil. They're not. You said most people play WoW for fun instead of just doing it for the items. They don't. It's the same in every online game. You are putting WoW and other games players on a pedestal. They are no different.

By the way, turn 5 in FFXIV used to drop weapons that were of similar power to ones you could collect weekly points to get. As a result most people weren't interested in completing turn 5 for anything other than bragging rights. When those weapons got power increases, guess what happened to everyone's motivation to complete the content?


The fact there's people that do it, and have done it for the challenge when savage coil drops nothing new works against you. Square didn't need to give players a chance at a digital performance enhancer as their carrot on a stick to encourage people to do savage coil. SEGA needs to for PSO2 because so many quests boil down to 'run in a circle with 11 other people and kill stuff'.

Sega needs to? Time attacks (not TACOs) and those arks grand prix limited quests don't give you anything. A minority of players run those quests for no gain in terms of items. What is your response to that? It's the exact same situation as savage coil except the difficulty of those quests isn't high and you're just competing with others.
Like I said before, is your issue with the difficulty of the quests?
Square needs those carrots just as much as any other online game needs them.

[Sanguine2009]

fun and drops/exp/meseta/whatever, why do they have to be mutually exclusive? why not fun content that is also rewarding?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

They won't clear the content in the first place if the items aren't there.

They're being rightfully used as a means to an end. They're not the ultimate goal for most players in FF14. Upgrades to see more numbers, and higher numbers faster is the goal for many players here when it's not dressup.


The carrot on the stick is the reason why more people do coil than savage coil. If the majority of people cared about having fun first and foremost then the majority of people would be doing savage coil.

The majority of people aren't doing it because that majority don't have a group capable of clearing T9 of regular coil without problems. You forgot about that?


Sega needs to? Time attacks (not TACOs) and those arks grand prix limited quests don't give you anything. A minority of players run those quests for no gain in terms of items. What is your response to that?

There's contests for those in japan for actual prizes.


fun and drops/exp/meseta/whatever, why do they have to be mutually exclusive? why not fun content that is also rewarding?

They don't have to be. I'd like fun/challenging content that's rewarding in some form. We just have to wait for SEGA to make the next thing that resembles that model like they did with TD.

[Magikarp]

They're not the ultimate goal for most players in FF14.

The "ultimate goal" for most FFXIV players is gearing up. Stop romanticising these players. It is no different.


The majority of people aren't doing it because that majority don't have a group capable of clearing T9 of regular coil without problems. You forgot about that?

That's why all the groups I knew of who were completing turn 9 on a weekly basis went right into trying their hand at savage coil. Oh wait, that didn't happen. What actually happened was most of them have never even set foot inside of it because "there's no point" with no new drops.

Kinda tired of this, keep thinking the grass is greener on the other side if you want. There's no point if you haven't played those games to see what the regular player actually cares about.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The "ultimate goal" for most FFXIV players is gearing up. Stop romanticising these players. It is no different.

I'm not putting those players on a pedestal. I'm saying the game had more to offer than combat, and just gearing up to look good. That's a fact.


That's why all the groups I knew of who were completing turn 9 on a weekly basis went right into trying their hand at savage coil. Oh wait, that didn't happen. What actually happened was most of them have never even set foot inside of it because "there's no point" with no new drops.

Kinda tired of this, keep thinking the grass is greener on the other side if you want. There's no point if you haven't played those games to see what the regular player actually cares about.

I knew different groups of players that went into savage and earned their titles doing it. You can't deny there's a group of people who do decent challenging content because it's there. Fyi I played ff14 since beta, WoW for 7, and stints of TERA and SWtOR. Do you know what regular players cares about? The idea of "I'm doing content that most of the population can't" is enough drive for a sizeable group of players, especially if the 'phat lewtz' aren't all that unique, they will look to the next hurdle.

[Shinmarizu]

fun and drops/exp/meseta/whatever, why do they have to be mutually exclusive? why not fun content that is also rewarding?

Fun is subjective, and ranges from "I have all the lv 17 PAs that got spiked, woohoo!" to "I have the 12/13* I've wanted, joy!" and may or may not include "Wow, that boss was a jerk; feels good beating him up."

One of Manin's gripes is that we have to wait in line staring at either the wiki's message boards or the clock before we can have an opportunity to have some fun here (also read as "enjoy this new content" or the carrot on the stick) - we are being led along by Sega for the foreseeable future.

And this is not exactly the way I want to deal with (1) the new level cap, (2) the fact that class cubes are required in rather large amounts for small payoff, (3) grinding for new shiny rares, (4) grabbing lv 17 disks.

That is XH as it stands right now. I admit that I am playing so I can get more powerful and I would rather get there sooner than later (who doesn't?), but being time-gated to the point where I'm logging on every 3 hours praying for Urban is ridiculous. Doesn't mean I can't run other quests on SH (I still do, there is other fun to be had) but the rewards are things we have been exposed to already, and we all want the new stuff, right?

UQ can be viewed separately; the fact that UQ exists only for one planet right now with later areas to be released at some unknown time later is infuriating, but understandable based on the PvE/F2P model.

But UQ has its problems (low XP gain, low drop rates, etc.); people have already made plenty of comments about that.

tl;dr Fun and rewarding are both subjective and not necessarily mutually exclusive. I believe we're all clamoring for both (to whatever degree, up to personal preference), we're all at the fountain and Sega has the tap set to drip. On a timer.

[Achelousaurus]

UQ is actually understandable.
All XH needs is a bit of number tweaking and some new drops, super quick and easy.

Ult is a complete redesign with all new enemies models, ais and abilities, new environments (ult forest doesn't have that similar layouts to normal forest) and new bosses that have new systems (I suppose every ult area will have its own version of Anga).

And not just that, lvl 70 has been around since how long?
Just now we got lvl 75, 5 friggin levels instead of the usual 10.
That's the super easy part that only needs some number tweaking and "balancing".
This game isn't remotely balanced, they can't spend more than a couple of hours playtesting for it, so really all we need for XH and lvl 80 is a function to raise everyone's (including enemy) stats by the same amount.
And considering we get a whole bunch of palette swap weapons, this part of XH does not require any noteworthy amount of time or effort either.

The problem is also that when some new content is available, it makes the old content uninteresting.