Chain Vol Graptor/Banish Arrow, quick Standing Snipe to be patched

[Aine]

http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=4997

Chain Finish is not supposed to stack onto Vol Graptor/Banish Arrow, it will be fixed so that they only reflect the actual damage done.

If you take Moving Snipe as well as Standing Snipe, SS will be bugged to activate faster than normal (essentially it becomes active the instant MS becomes inactive), this will be fixed as well.

GuHu, GuBr, GuRa all just got nerfed in time for Magatsu!

[NexusAZ]

HEY HEY about time... at least for the Chain thing.

[Xaelouse]

The chain thing would be stupid for Magatsu's extremely long stun time. Good call from them.

[Xaeris]

"Hey, Sam-san, the game's gotten rather imbalanced, don't you think?"

"Right? I was just about to bring that up with you, Jim-san! I've already collected some potential changes we could make. I was thinking we should rein in Forces a little first before-"

"Nah, nerf the gunners."

"But we already...oh, screw it."

Honestly, I don't really care. I never considered Vol Graptor to be more than a cute gimmick to pull out now and then, and I didn't even know about the Standing Snipe bug. I just really wonder what the hell is going through their heads over there that stuff like this is first on their plate while Force continues to be easy input and high output.

[Rakurai]

I'm surprised they didn't fix it sooner.

If the change means that Vol Graptor simply doesn't get multiplied by Chain Trigger anymore, I presume it'll probably still be worth pulling off whenever it's possible.

[Stickboy]

sooner or later, there won't be any gunners left

[oratank]

i don't think Chain Finish stack Vol Graptor/Banish Arrow can call gunner

[final_attack]

Uh .... so ..... no skill tree reset? I'd rather cap Killing Bonus rather than Moving Snipe then ._.

[MRLADYBOY]

sooner or later, there won't be any gunners left

Gunner main here. Perhaps soon to be Gu gone :/

[Selphea]

Sega is watching us :o

Doesn't sound that bad though. It just means Chain Graptor drops from 4.7 million to 1.17 million, and that's not counting the Slide End and Throw themselves which hit pretty hard too.

Please don't nerf Chain Fever

[Dephinix]

So MS into SS was a bug, I guess that makes sense. Kinda sucks being penalized for standing still for 2-3 seconds, or whatever it is. Not sure how Gu/Ra got nerfed by this though? Still a great combo in general, and Elder Arms surely hate it.

[Walkure]

Seemed odd that it applied to the Volg hit in the first place. That explosion ignores a lot of multipliers (since they generally apply to the damage buildup anyways).

If you take Moving Snipe as well as Standing Snipe, SS will be bugged to activate faster than normal (essentially it becomes active the instant MS becomes inactive), this will be fixed as well.I thought the point of MS was that it was supposed to be active when SS was not. Does this mean that there is supposed to be a time where neither are supposed to apply?

[Maenara]

This is little more than a 50% damage nerf to a legitimate playstyle.

[MRLADYBOY]

Seemed odd that it applied to the Volg hit in the first place. That explosion ignores a lot of multipliers (since they generally apply to the damage buildup anyways).
I thought the point of MS was that it was supposed to be active when SS was not. Does this mean that there is supposed to be a time where neither are supposed to apply?

Exactly my question...Confused as i am :/

[final_attack]

Well, there should be time where MS and SS not activating ....... I thought MS only applied for 1 attack animation after moving (something like after PA JA'ed at the end of S-Roll) ..... while Standing Snipe will need you to stay still for at least 1 or 2 seconds(?) ..... So, after the patch, maybe it'll become something like S-Roll -> SatAim (MS Bonus) -> SatAim (no bonus) -> SatAim (SS Bonus) ...... while currently 2nd SatAim got SS bonus.

[Maenara]

Things to fix:
•The Gunslash PA Kreisenschlag has been glitched ever since the Episode 3 update, and is 60% weaker than it should be.
•Every single tech customization that increased technique power became weaker with the Episode 3 update, except for Namegid and Nabarta's.
•Vol Graptor and Banish Arrow get a bonus 15% damage from Fighter's Critical Strike skill.
•Vol Graptor and Banish Arrow can get a 3x damage bonus from Gunner's Chain Trigger skill if you work with obnoxiously tight timing. DING DING DING lets fix this one cause people are actually doing it and have likely invested into it

[Sayara]

Clearly its your fault for advertising it so much.
Its a shame though, using a partisan is always a good time.

[Maenara]

Oh, cause Sega totally reads this forum. :V

Maybe I'll just go HU/RA for a 255% damage bonus available all the time instead of HU/GU for a 300% damage bonus available for 5 seconds out of a minute, since they're removing the ability to get 1400% effective damage bonus.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

If you take Moving Snipe as well as Standing Snipe, SS will be bugged to activate faster than normal (essentially it becomes active the instant MS becomes inactive), this will be fixed as well.


This isn't even necessary.



I thought the point of MS was that it was supposed to be active when SS was not. Does this mean that there is supposed to be a time where neither are supposed to apply?

Apparently, which is why this change feels really stupid.


Oh, cause Sega totally reads this forum. :V

I blame you.

[Evangelion X.XX]

http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=4997

If you take Moving Snipe as well as Standing Snipe, SS will be bugged to activate faster than normal (essentially it becomes active the instant MS becomes inactive), this will be fixed as well.


Hmm... No wonder why I've been able to proc SS after performing a step-attack into Additional Bullet; I thought it was weird that I didn't have to stand still for a sec.

Usually, I proc SS not by immediately JA-ing into Additional Bullet, but by JA-ing into Additional Bullet at the very, very last moment.

[KazukiQZ]

MS>SS bugfix(?)
And Standing Snipe activation is already wonky to deal with, now it got nerfed for no solid reason?

SEGA should include some sort of indicator of when SS/MS is activated then, such as a thin blue/red circle under you to indicate Standing/Moving Snipe is active.

And also make Moving Snipe bonus increase according to 10/20/30/40/50% of Standing Snipe bonus. So, if you max both Standing Snipe, you can get the maximum 15% damage bonus while in Moving Snipe (If you max Moving Snipe too).

Wishful thinking, but better than nerfing things that no need of nerfing.

[Z-0]

Moving Snipe applies if you are currently moving when you use a PA. It's not a "thing that applies when SS doesn't" situation.

Standing Snipe applies after standing still for 1 second before using an attack.

I'm assuming the bug is removing that 1 second stall time on Standing Snipe if you use an attack right after stopping moving.

[RadiantLegend]

So you are saying it will be better? SS takes ~ 2 secs for me.

[Bellion]

No, this will make getting Standing Snipe like 1 second slower if you had Moving Snipe active.

[KazukiQZ]

^What Bellion said. I had tested abit, with 1 time of normal attack from rifle (when standing still) > JAing a PA, activates Standing Snipe. With this fix (pfft), it will take longer than that, possibly 2 normal shots.

Hope this is not the case. D:

[isCasted]

So, basically, they are going to fix things that are not broken (meaning "working logically"). Well, Vol Graptor and Banishing Arrow (and Weak Bullet, while I'm at it) are broken (meaning "meaningless overpowering gimmicks") in first place. And concept of Standing Snipe isn't even implemented properly.

So, they are making wrong things do their job in a wrong way... SEGA.

[Xaelouse]

Things to fix:
•The Gunslash PA Kreisenschlag has been glitched ever since the Episode 3 update, and is 60% weaker than it should be.


I'm absolutely baffled the JPs haven't reported this yet. Nobody cares about gunslash

[Z-0]

So you are saying it will be better? SS takes ~ 2 secs for me.
Yeah just realised I typed that wrong. The bug is that SS is applied immediately right after you stop moving.

[Sacrificial]

I blame maenara.

[Sizustar]

This fix seems to be in preparing for the Megatsu fight, since it seems like preventive measure against Hu/Gu, and Br/Gu killing Megatsu in 15 second.

[Z-0]

Because we aren't going to kill Magatsu in 15 seconds anyway, right?

[LonelyGaruga]

So, basically, they are going to fix things that are not broken (meaning "working logically"). Well, Vol Graptor and Banishing Arrow (and Weak Bullet, while I'm at it) are broken (meaning "meaningless overpowering gimmicks") in first place. And concept of Standing Snipe isn't even implemented properly.

Vol Graptor and Banish Arrow aren't meaningless overpowering gimmicks. They're perfectly valid PAs that allow for a lot of versatility. Tag a breakable part, smack a weak point a couple times, and the breakable part's gonna blow up. Main a tech class and use a partisan/bow with T-ATK and you get two of the only non-tech weapons that can use techs viably (just a shame partisans are lacking in that department currently). You can ditch 5 SP in Fury Combo with no loss of damage, or grab Tech Arts JA Bonus to get guaranteed activation. There's a lot you can do with it that you can't do just using the same PA or tech four times.

These PAs are special and unique, offering much more versatility in play than most other PAs. Taking away Chain Trigger from them doesn't make any sense. Banish Arrow can already be used viably with Weak Bullet, and Weak Bullet gives almost the exact same multiplier, but Ra/Br has way better multipliers than Br/Gu or Gu/Br, so in practice, it does everything better. There was already no reason to go Br/Gu or Gu/Br, but it's hit with a nerf anyway. And this tactic was the only reason to go with Hu/Gu. Gunner has virtually nothing going for Hunter otherwise. Chain Trigger is one of the only things it has to offer as a subclass, and it wasn't even broken.

Whatever ignorant nonsense you have to say about it, these were valid tactics and added to the game's variety. Taking it away just made Hu/Gu virtually unviable, and nobody's gonna call that class combination broken.


This fix seems to be in preparing for the Megatsu fight, since it seems like preventive measure against Hu/Gu, and Br/Gu killing Megatsu in 15 second.

Sega shouldn't have made Magatsu such a punching bag in the first place. It looks like it was straight up inspired by MH's gigantic monster fights...and those are almost universally the worst fights in all of the games.

And they didn't even nerf WB, which multiplies everyone's damage instead of just one player's, like how CT works. What a half-assed job. They could have just made Magatsu automatically get up or free itself after a certain amount of damage if they wanted to avoid it getting its shit wrecked.

[Fusionxglave]

Fighter nation, Bouncer tribe, Gunner Nomads, and Teacher Kingdom.
Long ago the four sub/main class were well balance in peace and all damages were reasonable. But everything change when the Nerfs hit. Only A true gunner, Specialist in all PAs, damage bounes, and good equip could challenge them. But when 12 people party need them the most, they vanished.

a year later, I found a new gunner name, Loxdown, his skills were awful and his damages were just not excusable. this guy has nothing to learn. He will never save any world with his attack power. gunners are just getting nerfed like every week. there is no saving the gunner class. This group is heading down hill.

^^^^^^^^

[un1t27]

RIP again..

[cheapgunner]

Nerfs to specific class combos and no buffs in return? Pretty soon Gunner is gonna be a relic. ;_;

[pkemr4]

RIP in pieces Partizen Gu/Hu (or Hu/Gu)

[Xaelouse]

Doesn't change the fact that GU will definitely be one of the better classes by nature of the fight, so it's kinda silly to think they will be useless. Same for FI and BO. Kinda like the opposite of their situation in TD.
HU main is probably the worst. Air combat is extremely stiff for them and their ranged attacks are weak, and having natural air mobility seems important for breaking parts for loot.

[Ordy]

The MS/SS fix isn't really a nerf.

Currently the MS variable is messing with the SS variable, making it trigger the SS bonus way too early and unintentionally "buffing" the skill.

Sega is just going to recode the standing snipe state/trigger to what it was before MS.

Then except people like Maenara and other one trick ponies, do people really care about that CT fix? It's not like people are abusing graptor or banish on a CT trigger to start with, Sega isn't touching the CT multipliers on other PA/classes. Graptor and banishLN are still going to deal absurd damage on a WB'ed weak spot, people will use a better sub than GU and will deal more consistent damage /o/ yaaaaay

[LonelyGaruga]

The fact that the CT nerf removed variety from the game is pretty stupid. It makes Gunner a worse sub for two classes, both of which it was having difficulty competing with in the first place, and it wasn't broken and in need of a nerf in the first place. The nerf comes off purely as Sega forcing players to playing the game the way they intended and not using unique and unusual exploits like Chain Graptor/BA.

Add that it's a nerf to a class that was already a terrible subclass beforehand and it's an idiotic move on Sega's part. Sega's slapped nerf after nerf on Gunner and never made up for anything they did to it, and this is just one more unnecessary, idiotic change that was never needed. Never mind how viable Chain Graptor/BA was, it wasn't something that warranted removal.

While they'll still do a lot of damage on a WB'd area, it's a considerable nerf to something that wasn't even broken to begin with. It'll still work, there was just zero reason for this nerf to begin with. It does sound like they're "fixing" it solely to avoid a party of 1 Ranger and 11 Hu/Gus and Br/Gus annihilating Magatsu too quickly, and for no other reason. Which wouldn't have been necessary if Sega was capable of programming a boss that didn't leave massive openings for players to blow it up.

[Searaphim]

The MS/SS fix isn't really a nerf.

Currently the MS variable is messing with the SS variable, making it trigger the SS bonus way too early and unintentionally "buffing" the skill.

Sega is just going to recode the standing snipe state/trigger to what it was before MS.

Then except people like Maenara and other one trick ponies, do people really care about that CT fix? It's not like people are abusing graptor or banish on a CT trigger to start with, Sega isn't touching the CT multipliers on other PA/classes. Graptor and banishLN are still going to deal absurd damage on a WB'ed weak spot, people will use a better sub than GU and will deal more consistent damage /o/ yaaaaay

What bothers me more is that after all this time SEGA's priority is still nerfing over making the class good again. How far are they going to bring it down before they're satisfied and actually make useful changes again?

[Selphea]

These PAs are special and unique, offering much more versatility in play than most other PAs. Taking away Chain Trigger from them doesn't make any sense. Banish Arrow can already be used viably with Weak Bullet, and Weak Bullet gives almost the exact same multiplier, but Ra/Br has way better multipliers than Br/Gu or Gu/Br, so in practice, it does everything better. There was already no reason to go Br/Gu or Gu/Br, but it's hit with a nerf anyway. And this tactic was the only reason to go with Hu/Gu. Gunner has virtually nothing going for Hunter otherwise. Chain Trigger is one of the only things it has to offer as a subclass, and it wasn't even broken.

Whatever ignorant nonsense you have to say about it, these were valid tactics and added to the game's variety. Taking it away just made Hu/Gu virtually unviable, and nobody's gonna call that class combination broken.

Weak Bullet doesn't actually seem to multiply Banish Arrow either though.

The bug seems to be that Chain Finish was being applied twice to Vol/Banish. Once on the damage being fed into the build, and again on the Vol/Banish itself.

So suppose you hit a WB'd weak point for 500k normally, a 20-chain would give an x3 multiplier to take that to 1.5 million, and then Vol/Banish explodes with another x3 multiplier on itself for 4.5 million. This isn't the case with WB - if a 600k Nemesis gets fed into Banish, it comes out as 600k regardless of whether the bomb hits a WBed area or not.

Anyway, I don't think the nerf will be felt too much. Even without Chain being applied a second time, a Graptor chain should still be able to oneshot SH bosses and land the finishing blow in XH MPAs.

[LonelyGaruga]

I'm not saying WB does that, but that you get better results using it instead of Chain Trigger, because it's easier to set up, can be repeated four times, and lasts longer, so it gets better results.

You're better off going Hu/Fi (or Fi/Hu) or Ra/Br if you want to use Vol Graptor/BA combos now, so post-nerf CT combo damage doesn't really matter much.

[Maenara]

Weak Bullet doesn't actually seem to multiply Banish Arrow either though.

The bug seems to be that Chain Finish was being applied twice to Vol/Banish. Once on the damage being fed into the build, and again on the Vol/Banish itself.

So suppose you hit a WB'd weak point for 500k normally, a 20-chain would give an x3 multiplier to take that to 1.5 million, and then Vol/Banish explodes with another x3 multiplier on itself for 4.5 million. This isn't the case with WB - if a 600k Nemesis gets fed into Banish, it comes out as 600k regardless of whether the bomb hits a WBed area or not.

Yes, and you get a weakbullet for 20 seconds, and four weakbullets every 90 seconds, versus one chain trigger every minute, with timing so tight that simply being flinched by a random mob causes you to miss your chance, and unlike with Chain Volging, your banish can be embedded literally anywhere on the boss besides where you're attacking, which means that you don't have to avoid breakable points, whereas with Chain Volging, your ignition PAs, Volg Graptor, and Chain Trigger have to be all on the same spot. On a breakable point, if your ignition PAs do so much damage that the part breaks before Vol Graptor explodes, you lose the Vol Graptor and the Chain Trigger.
In addition to all that, the process to Chain Volg is MUCH more complex than Rifle->WB load->Shoot weakbullet->Bow->Banish Arrow->Ignition PAs.

HU/GU now outputs damage on the same level as RA/BR, and was ten times harder to play to begin with, making it worthless.

[Walkure]

It's like the same thing as Meteor Cudgel shift spam where it wasn't intended to be used that way, so even if it's only strong in a limited usage it's getting nerfed.

Chain Trigger, along with the Just Attack 30% (and I guess the hidden 5% mod for everything might as well), are currently the only bonuses that "double-dip" like this, and the Just Attack is there to encourage actually JAing the Volg hit in the first place.

[Maenara]

You forgot Critical Strike.

[Selphea]

Well yea Weak Bullet is complete BS to begin with and I'm not sure why they decided the class with the highest passive multipliers in the game needed a debuff like that. Doesn't look like anything's going to be done about it though, unless we all start stacking Ra/Gu with Chain-WB-Homing Emission on Magatsu or something.

And even then they'd be more likely to nerf Chain.

[Walkure]

You forgot Critical Strike.

Yeah, that should be gone too, I guess. . .

[Maenara]

Yeah, that should be gone too, I guess. . .

They're not going to remove it because no one is making builds around that.
When people start to, expect to see that fixed.

[Dephinix]

Builds around what?

[STNFCST]

Seems they ignoring ground shot glitch. For anyone knows it appear more than just TD3 all area shoot someone post.

Anyway I am playing FO easy to go around and never receive nerf.

[Xenath]

I imagine this video was one of the reasons behind the Chain nerf.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24996034

[Walkure]

They're not going to remove it because no one is making builds around that.
When people start to, expect to see that fixed.So, dealing X damage within a Volg Combo with n hits, I have a P^n chance of landing Critical Strike on all of those for +15% damage on the whole string.

Let's say it's a charged shot and a JA, so the entire Volg String normally does:

X damage once, and then the volg combo hit
X*(1+1.3*1.2) = 2.56X

With Critical Strike on all of X, then:

(1.15X)*(1+1.3*1.2) = 1.15*2.56X = 2.944X

Now, with this bug, there's an additional P chance that the Volg Raptor hit will critical for 15% extra damage, leading to:

(1.15X)*(1+1.3*1.21*1.15) = 3.2131X
Which is only a 9.14% improvement in overall damage at a REALLY LOW (P^[n+1]) probability.

Let's look at averages real quick:
When P = 70% (critical FI/HU build)
(1+15%*P)X*(1+1.3*1.21*1+15%*P)
(1+15%*70%)X*(1+1.3*1.21*1+15%*70%) = 2.95919 X
Which makes it 15.59% more damage overall, rather than just 10.5% more damage for 25 SP. Wow, such power!

That being said, it'd be REALLY FUNNY to see an announcement about Critical Strike, of all things, getting a nerf, so I personally hope it happens.

[Sizustar]

I imagine this video was one of the reasons behind the Chain nerf.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24996034

Well, I know that Sakai and the other directors(Epi.1+2) and Episode3
Do troll nicovideo to see what player are doing.

Although I think only the episode 3 director actually try out player's extreme build in that case.

[Maenara]

I imagine this video was one of the reasons behind the Chain nerf.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24996034

hahahahaha
I TOLD YOU GUYS IT COULD BE DONE

[RadiantLegend]

I imagine this video was one of the reasons behind the Chain nerf.
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24996034

Anyone care to explain what bow PA's were used in succession?

[Maenara]

So I calculated from the numbers I could see in the video(I'm pretty sure I missed one or two), that Banish Arrow exploded for at least 25 million damage. For comparison, SH Loser has about 18 million HP.

[Selphea]

Judging from how the PP bar moved, it looks like Chase Chase Chase Banish Piercing Piercing Piercing Piercing

[TaigaUC]

The game's designed in such a way that certain setups do ridiculous damage and a lot of other setups are virtually unviable or too situation-specific.
I'm all for alternative playstyles, but it becomes a problem when a specific playstyle can kill major bosses instantly.

It'd be okay if they managed to balance alternative playstyles (ie. encourage experimentation without discouraging), but it doesn't seem like that's ever going to happen.
They seem more eager to nullify playstyles than to bother balancing them.

Not relevant in this thread, but I still feel like most melee weapons ought to be much faster.

[cheapgunner]

Judging from how the PP bar moved, it looks like Chase Chase Chase Banish Piercing Piercing Piercing Piercing

So about 157-160 pp it seems. I never though of that combo b4 for bows. Might tyr it with wb and see what I get. >.<

[Dephinix]

Penetrating arrow is awesome, at least since EP3. It hits almost as hard as Master Shoot, costs 5pp less, and can hit multiple times. I imagine it working well on Bal, but people can kill him before Banish Arrow explodes now anyways, so bleh.

[Atmius]

If penetrate arrow hit like hatou did, it'd be a super awesome move. Unforunately, because it doesn't, it only hits like 3 parts on bal rodos before disappearing, despite going through 20.

[Dephinix]

Even then, does it at least hit it's weak spot twice? In that Nico Nico video he doesn't even charge Penetrating Arrow. I was comparing fully charged damage. As far as DPS goes, I think Penetrating Arrow still wins? At least uncharged it should. Charging Master Shoot gives it 5 arrows, I think Pene Arrow gives it near double damage? I see in that Nico Video that Pene uncharged were hitting at least twice on him, so that's a nice bonus.

[Aine]

Today's patch notes don't mention these changes, so it might be safe for another week at least...

[Dephinix]

Quick, everyone, max out your highest damage dealt before the patch! Lulz.

[Achelousaurus]

Fighter nation, Bouncer tribe, Gunner Nomads, and Teacher Kingdom.
Long ago the four sub/main class were well balance in peace and all damages were reasonable. But everything change when the Nerfs hit. Only A true gunner, Specialist in all PAs, damage bounes, and good equip could challenge them. But when 12 people party need them the most, they vanished.

a year later, I found a new gunner name, Loxdown, his skills were awful and his damages were just not excusable. this guy has nothing to learn. He will never save any world with his attack power. gunners are just getting nerfed like every week. there is no saving the gunner class. This group is heading down hill.

^^^^^^^^
XD

Anyway, this is quite disappointing because I was just about to get into HuGu.

And what is happening then if you do use CT + Vol / banish? Same dmg? tiny boost?

Critical Strike is just a 15% dmg boost, even if it was active all the time it would not make any noteworthy difference.
Unlike WB / CT that multiple damage and allow you to get really high numbers.

[LonelyGaruga]

The change is to make Vol/BA ignore CT's multiplier. The other attacks prior to the detonation will still have their damage accurately duplicated. It's a severe loss in damage still. If you had 20K hits, they'd have been 60K with 3x CT, and with two hits for CT, the copied damage would be 120K, and then tripled by CT to be 60K + 60K + 360K = 480K. With the change, it would merely be 60K + 60K + 120K = 240K.

Half damage, in other words.