12 Class Cubes for 2 SP is too much work for too little reward.

[MidCap]

Topic says it all. Last time was enough (9 Class Cubes for 2 SP), but this is getting absurd.

It's not so bad for the main class, but a lot of people have to use inferior gear when leveling their subs, which is a drag.

I really wish they'd stop with this nonsense. One lousy SP isn't enough of a reward per 6 Class Cubes, but since it's part of the base stats, it IS enough to bother you if you don't get it. This is the most abusive and WORST kind of work / reward system a game can choose to implement; a kind that SUCKS to complete, but makes you feel like crap if you don't. It's the video game equivalent of an abusive relationship.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I assumed we all knew this already, but I just stayed quiet.

Yes, we're effectively leveling just under 6 times for one skill point, and no extra base stats, and now I need to buy another kenei because i don't feel like using a hunter weapon.

[MidCap]

I find it really stupid that the primarily JP population is so accepting of this ridiculous system. Are they really so abused and downtrodden as gamers that they've come to expect this sort of monotony? Shame...

[Remz69]

I find it really stupid that the primarily JP population is so accepting of this ridiculous system. Are they really so abused and downtrodden as gamers that they've come to expect this sort of monotony? Shame...


of all the things wrong with the game, i assure you this is the least important of the complaints to make
+vast majority of the population is capped and saw that coming from a billion miles away, meaning they already have the cubes ready, so they really couldn't care less about bad design here when there's much more harmful bad design everywhere else

[oratank]

well they are just bonus reward. 90 sp are already enough for main skill doesn't need to rush to get those class cube sp

[Xaelouse]

This seems harmless to capped players but it'll be a pain in the ass for newcomers later on when the level cap increases.

[Scale of Judgment]

The experience system is not that bad. The most complaints are based from RNG, content, and well, weapon diversity...

[oratank]

This seems harmless to capped players but it'll be a pain in the ass for newcomers later on when the level cap increases.

when time pass enough sega will reduce class cube req for newcomer like thet did all the time and this will butt hurts to capped players.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

when time pass enough sega will reduce class cube req for newcomer like thet did all the time and this will butt hurts to capped players.

As a capped player, I know they will, and I won't care if/when they do. I have ~30 cubes for Br, and Bo. I only need to work for Hu.

edit: there's alot of other things in the game that I'd sooner complain about.

[sol_trigger]

dont like it ? dont do it

youmadbro

-SEGA-

[Naoya Kiriyama]

That's a really silly complain, it's not like any SP earned past lvl70 will make a huge impact in a build, considering that in the range of 50-70 you should have got all core skills in any class.

I just tend to think that these cubes are eventually earned as a sort of bonus, and never farm them. Besides, most people will probably dump the extra stats in raw atk so... :-?

If you're complaining about farming that for subclasses, then don't use the subclass? Not like you're missing much.

[BIG OLAF]

"Too much work for too little reward" is essentially the entire game in a nutshell at this point, though. Singling out Class Cubes specifically is neither here nor there.

[wefwq]

But excube are piss easy to obtain nowadays, you could just like participate on 1 EQ and then you'll most likely get 1 class cube, and if there's EXP or triboost event going you most likely get 2 or even 3 by the end of the EQ.

Also it's not like you have to clear it anyway, SP CO are completelly optional that will reward you for extra SP and it'll take awhile until they add another one, thus you get ton of spare time to collect the required class cubes.
With upcoming limited-time quest, you will have steady EXP flow and make the progress even more faster and easier.

[Xaelouse]

But Magatsu is too little work for too much reward and it's some of the worst content in the game.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

But Magatsu is too little work for too much reward and it's some of the worst content in the game.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ek97g1jQ1ry10fwo1_400.gif

[the_importer_]

The experience system is not that bad. The most complaints are based from RNG, content, and well, weapon diversity...

This.

I mean I gave up on rare hunting since it's too stupid to waste your life on this. Class Cubes on the other hand are more of a bonus for people who play with the same 2 or 3 classes. I have 23 Fo Cubes and 18 Te Cubes, more than enough for these next 2 points which will come in handy.

[TaigaUC]

It's a huge pain if you're like me and have a ton of characters with virtually every class at 75.
But as people have said, you don't need to do it.

Also, I'm pretty certain the EXP required for a cube is less than a level up from 75 to 76.
And if you're capped you can still get EXP by messing around on PSO2es.

[final_attack]

Well, it is kinda painful if not for the class you enjoy or used to play o-o

I'm still haven't finished 2nd SP order for Ra, but sitting on 75 spare Gu's Cubes atm >_> Levelling Ra is a little bit painful since I'm not used to rifle, and my PSO2es character is using my alt too >_>

Levelling Ra with .... limited choice of Tmg (don't have any Tmg other than Gu-main only) and under-powered should I managed to get Ra-equipable tmg ...... is ... >_< But I still need that cubes to level WB at least above Lv1 (with 2 new SP CO) >_>

[TaigaUC]

The whole thing probably wouldn't be nearly as bad if Ultimate (what most people do at cap) gave decent EXP.

[landman]

I only play one class and I just switch to my subclass when turning in COs, I have other classes capped but I don't really play them, and so I don't really care about 4 skill points, the moment I do I will just play them.

[Rain Walker]

I'm expecting reductions when 80 is the new cap :wacko:

[Rakurai]

I already have 32 class cubes on my FO, so no biggy.

[WEED420BLAZEIT]

hu 22 cubes, fi 27 cubes, ra 15 cubes, gu 18 cubes, fo 14 cubes, te 15 cubes, br 25 cubes, bo 25 cubes

Just Bring It

[Perfect Chaos]

Pretty balanced class play you have there.
I'm still working on the 4th SP CO for some of the classes I don't main too often. When they first announced more SP COs, I assumed only one more was going to be added, so I slacked off after getting enough for the 3rd CO. Luckily, I'm already set for both of my main characters on both FO and TE, with 38 FO Excube and 28 TE Excube.

[stardustreverie]

Those extra skill points are worth so little that I usually just turn the excubes into normal excubes instead of 3 s-atk up on my tree. Besides, they drop like candy if you actually play the game, the extra ones are just cluttering up my storage at this point.

[Selphea]

These SP COs are an outrage! Why, I actually have to play the game instead of dancing in the lobby! Not to mention they finally gave me a reason to use my tacky pool of 1000 Photon Spheres for 75% Exp Boosters instead of swimming! How dare Sega do this to me? That extra 0.01 second on Step Advance I'm managing fine without right now is going to break my build! They've totally lost it I tell you!

[Dammy]

These SP COs are an outrage! Why, I actually have to play the game instead of dancing in the lobby! Not to mention they finally gave me a reason to use my tacky pool of 1000 Photon Spheres for 75% Exp Boosters instead of swimming! How dare Sega do this to me? That extra 0.01 second on Step Advance I'm managing fine without right now is going to break my build! They've totally lost it I tell you!

exactly

[AlphaBlob]

Does this really deserve a rant? Leveling in this game is god easy...

[Terrence]

12 Class Cubes for 2 SP is too much work for too little reward.
I have played many MMORPG since PSO in 2001 (I already was 19 by the way) and I don't remember any of them giving me rewards for level caps. Around three UQ being enough to gain a level cap with EXP boosts, those Class Cubes are obtainable quite easily. So are these SP. And saying more SP are little rewards is an error. Will we be happy for being given good things ? No... Let's rage again, of course.


These SP COs are an outrage! Why, I actually have to play the game instead of dancing in the lobby! Not to mention they finally gave me a reason to use my tacky pool of 1000 Photon Spheres for 75% Exp Boosters instead of swimming! How dare Sega do this to me? That extra 0.01 second on Step Advance I'm managing fine without right now is going to break my build! They've totally lost it I tell you!
:yes: :yes: :yes:

[starwhisper]

Everybody likes to level up their sub-class with sub-par weapons in ultimate, it is known.
No, actually we will go into XH emergencies with bad class combos, use weapons we usually don't like and expect other players to carry us.
It is dumb like this.

[NoiseHERO]

who wants to lvl up my characters for me

[Lostbob117]

Okay man, so what am I suppose to grind for when I max out a class? This was made so you have a reason to level up after max level. 1Level for 1sp for the COs would be no time at all. 6 however is a lot better to grind for. So there is something to grind for.

[Kondibon]

There's something to be said about how compliant people are when some of you are defending such a poorly thought out, unsustainable, temporary system. How easy it is or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's not worth it. :/

And what's with all this "Well at least you get something for going past the level cap" crap? No one said getting excubes for leveling is bad. Only that the EXP:SP ratio is getting out of hand to the point where it's not even worth doing. Not to mention this system is going to throw things out of whack when the level cap increases again... and the time after that... and after that...

[starwhisper]

how about engdame? Does this means anything in pso2 or are we so conditionned to mediocrity that we forgot that being at max level in online games can be a lot of fun and give acces to many thing to do and to grind?

[KazeSenoue]

But Magatsu is too little work for too much reward and it's some of the worst content in the game.

Magatsu doesn't even come close to C-Mode grinding for Ideal.


Okay man, so what am I suppose to grind for when I max out a class? This was made so you have a reason to level up after max level. 1Level for 1sp for the COs would be no time at all. 6 however is a lot better to grind for. So there is something to grind for.

As if this game didn't have enough grinding already.

[Selphea]

It's only a grind if... you know... you grind for it.

But at 75/75 should you really be grinding for class cubes instead of farming 13*/12*/Saiki/Excubes/Meseta/exotic affixes/other better things to hunt? To me this thing is just a nice side perk that randomly rolls in while I'm doing other stuff.

And it really rolls in. I was drowning in class cubes at one point before I decided to clean up.

[landman]

Just for the excube reward of level cap bonus is reason enough for me to avoid switching to another class I don't like as much, no reward at all and the EXP FULL messages were the reasons why I'd switch to all clases in PSU, or simply stop playing.

[TaigaUC]

What Selphea said. I got most of mine from doing other stuff (mostly Magatsu, of course). I intentionally got the Force and Techer ones first though.
Also note that you can just have one character at max level and then use their class cubes on other characters later.

Experience Points are a shit system to me. In reality, people gain experience from anything/everything and grow at different rates.
I hate being limited by a game's point system that lags behind my actual real life capability.
If a game uses experience points, it should be done in a way that you never really notice.
It shouldn't be something that you have to go out of your way to grind.

There are a bunch of ways to match experience points to player skill, such as bonus experience points for skilled play, etc.
PSO2, like most games, is lacking in such systems.

[Zerolimit]

Im pretty sure i know who the OP is...

Anyways OP if you are in the same team as Kilua in game then I have said this to you there and I'll say it here.

I don't think that many players have become compliant with bad design, I think we just do not view these 2 SP or anything like the low drop rate on a 13* or 12*'s as necessary items to have. especially 2 SP. 2 SP is less than 1% (probably) increase in effectiveness.

As for the argument for new players who need to get them. who is to say that later down the road when the exp for level cap is higher that the cube requirement is lower? If that doesnt happen then that would be the right time to complain a little. I am not someone who is rolling cubes simply because i dont play often and even I am not worried because the difference is so small.

I think that you might be treating this game as a second job and could use a break.

[RadiantLegend]

I'll have to use HU again? *sigh*

[Lostbob117]

Magatsu doesn't even come close to C-Mode grinding for Ideal.



As if this game didn't have enough grinding already.

Like others have said. It's a side thing. It's for when you get Max Lv and are doing others things. The EXP isn't just a bunch of waste.

[Korazenn]

Magatsu doesn't even come close to C-Mode grinding for Ideal.

As if this game didn't have enough grinding already.

The C-Mode "grind" for Ideal is arguably one of the fastest end-game grinds I've seen in a long time for one of the best series of weapons in the game. In an 8/12 party, it would only take you a day or two worth of CQ (approximately 11-13 hrs) to get an Ideal.

You are complaining about one of the best parts about PSO2 as it requires actual skill and cooperation for MPAs and does not rely on RNG.

10 M10 80%s = ~120,000 CM
10 Clears = ~130,000 CM - ~135,000

To add to that, 13*s are the easiest weapons to grind in this game, hands-down. What exactly is unfair about Challenge Quest? I see JP Players setting up private MPAs all the time with no problem. If you want to do the same with English players if you can't understand or speak Japanese, arrange one with friends. There's also the thread I have for it here on PSOW.

[Flaoc]

The C-Mode "grind" for Ideal is arguably one of the fastest end-game grinds I've seen in a long time for one of the best series of weapons in the game. In an 8/12 party, it would only take you a day or two worth of CQ (approximately 11-13 hrs) to get an Ideal.

You are complaining about one of the best parts about PSO2 as it requires actual skill and cooperation for MPAs and does not rely on RNG.

10 M10 80%s = ~120,000 CM
10 Clears = ~130,000 CM - ~135,000

To add to that, 13*s are the easiest weapons to grind in this game, hands-down. What exactly is unfair about Challenge Quest? I see JP Players setting up private MPAs all the time with no problem. If you want to do the same with English players if you can't understand or speak Japanese, arrange one with friends. There's also the thread I have for it here on PSOW.

1* weps :D

ok fine 13* is the easiest ifor weapons that actually matter

on a side note its more about i dont wanna play certain classes again and would rather stick with what i want to play.. oh well

the good news is i can just go back to turn class cubes into 2 free excubes again once i got all my points

[reaper527]

You are complaining about one of the best parts about PSO2 as it requires actual skill and cooperation for MPAs and does not rely on RNG.


i wouldn't go as far as to say that c-mode doesn't rely on rng. you literally start with nothing and the entire mode you are at the mercy of what the rng decides to drop.

[Maenara]

i wouldn't go as far as to say that c-mode doesn't rely on rng. you literally start with nothing and the entire mode you are at the mercy of what the rng decides to drop.

Any good C-mode player is completely unaffected by drop RNG.

[Miles064]

Any good C-mode player is completely unaffected by drop RNG.

That doesn't change the fact that there is still rng in c-mode. It changes how you keep going.

[Maenara]

That doesn't change the fact that there is still rng in c-mode. It changes how you keep going.

And that's completely besides the point.

[Raujinn]

The true RNG of c-mode is ending up with a group that won't fail at m4, assuming you're running with randoms ofc.

[Miles064]

And that's completely besides the point.

And that point would be? C-mode relies on rng(although much less) like every end game part of this game. Being a good player would mean you can deal with it, not that it isn't there.

[Xaelouse]

With interval shops + trustworthy people and at least 4 people in the party, RNG isn't a big deal. If anything, the quest needs more RNG for it to be interesting, but that ruins the "competitive" aspect of it. (as if anyone gives a damn about the leaderboards now)

[Miles064]

With interval shops + trustworthy people and at least 4 people in the party, RNG isn't a big deal. If anything, the quest needs more RNG for it to be interesting, but that ruins the "competitive" aspect of it. (as if anyone gives a damn about the leaderboards now)

I bit off-topic but I think c-mode would have been way more fun as a 4 person deal then a 12. My biggest issue with c-mode was randoms being able to mess it up for everyone so hard. One guy dying a bunch can really tank your vr.

I will say i disagree with adding more rng but I admit I haven't done much c-mode. This game just needs less rng overall imo.

[Z-0]

Leaderboards are boring as fuck in CM right now, because it's entirely luck and not really based on skill anymore.

Anyway, yes, 12 class cubes for 2 SP is far too much work for too little reward. Sure, it's not that hard to do it if you level correctly in VHAQ, certain EQs and whatnot, but it's just too much time drain. Sure, you don't have to do it, but those SP are quite important for a few builds.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/skillcalc.php?10eQbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxIm da0fdodBIbHnIkI2IodoINfdnIdJksNI20000006doIn000000 0jdoib0000000fdo0000000Io00000007oIn00000000doIo4N GAdF6sNHSHxdB00000jdoIb0000000j Hu subclass problems (Yes I know S atk up isn't that important).

[Maenara]

http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/skillcalc.php?10eQbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxIm da0fdodBIbHnIkI2IodoINfdnIdJksNI20000006doIn000000 0jdoib0000000fdo0000000Io00000007oIn00000000doIo4N GAdF6sNHSHxdB00000jdoIb0000000j Hu subclass problems (Yes I know S atk up isn't that important).

>spending 23 SP on 7~10% more damage when you could be spending on skills that stop you from having to dodge, ever, thereby increasing dps

[Bellion]

What? Combat Escape+Combat Finish isn't enough for the tough situations?

[Maenara]

What? Combat Escape+Combat Finish isn't enough for the tough situations?

I think you're confusing never having to dodge ever with never having to dodge 1/3 of the time.

[Bellion]

But guarding > dodging in the first place, especially with a katana. Why dodge? I hope you're not counting guard as dodging either.
And then there's quick mate for small errors.

[Maenara]

But guarding > dodging in the first place, especially with a katana. Why dodge? I hope you're not counting guard as dodging either.
And then there's quick mate for small errors.

Guarding is preferable to actual dodging, yes, but my point was that 23 SP is an awful lot to spend on less than 10% damage when you could be investing it into better things. For example, take 4 SP out of Strike Up 2, and pop it into Massive Hunter instead. -44 S-atk for 66% increase in Massive Hunter uptime.

[final_attack]

Leaderboards are boring as fuck in CM right now, because it's entirely luck and not really based on skill anymore.

Anyway, yes, 12 class cubes for 2 SP is far too much work for too little reward. Sure, it's not that hard to do it if you level correctly in VHAQ, certain EQs and whatnot, but it's just too much time drain. Sure, you don't have to do it, but those SP are quite important for a few builds.

Eh? How come it's entirely luck now? Mind explaning? I'm curious o-o Haven't played any CM since that time I partied up with you due to irl things too >.<

Need those new 2 SP CO indeed ...... 2 more SP for max Crazy Heart on Fi or maxing APPR / R-Atk on Gu (with full Chain build) >.<

[LonelyGaruga]

Guarding is preferable to actual dodging, yes, but my point was that 23 SP is an awful lot to spend on less than 10% damage when you could be investing it into better things. For example, take 4 SP out of Strike Up 2, and pop it into Massive Hunter instead. -44 S-atk for 66% increase in Massive Hunter uptime.

That's the only thing that's actually worth ditching the S-ATK SP for. Personally I'd ditch Iron Will and 3 SP in S-ATK though. Massive Hunter doesn't really seem that useful for Br/Hu anyway outside of bow usage for bosses.

btw, the S-ATK actually adds more damage than that since Shifta Drink (20% increase), Katana Gear (30% increase), and the other Shifta stuff exist. It's more like an 11% increase with just Shifta Drink, and an 18-19% increase with both Drink and Katana Gear.

Oh wait, didn't see that Automate Halfline was skipped. Why even bother with getting Massive Hunter then? Seems like a waste.

[Maenara]

That's the only thing that's actually worth ditching the S-ATK SP for. Personally I'd ditch Iron Will and 3 SP in S-ATK though. Massive Hunter doesn't really seem that useful for Br/Hu anyway outside of bow usage for bosses.

btw, the S-ATK actually adds more damage than that since Shifta Drink (20% increase), Katana Gear (30% increase), and the other Shifta stuff exist. It's more like an 11% increase with just Shifta Drink, and an 18-19% increase with both Drink and Katana Gear.

Massive Hunter is good for an awful lot of the same reasons Combat Escape is, the prime difference being that Combat Escape is -100% damage taken(Invincibility) whereas Massive Hunter is -25%, but affords nearly all the other luxuries invincibility provides. Massive Hunter also has 2.25x the uptime.

[Zorak000]

I already got like 20+ te cubes in storage because I knew they were going to have more orders like this eventually

[Bellion]

With all that Braver has, the value of automate isn't that great. Snatch Step + JA serves as both an offensive and defense option too.
If we're talking about Hunter or Fighter mains without limit break, then definitely go get automate. Would totally skip out on the Fighter without limit break, but whatever.

If you only have one character and tree, then I can't argue against taking automate at all.
tl;dr: automate is better for some class combinations than others.

[LonelyGaruga]

Massive Hunter is good for an awful lot of the same reasons Combat Escape is

-15% damage bonus
-teleports
-Katana Combat Finish

I didn't know Massive Hunter did any of that stuff.


With all that Braver has, the value of automate isn't that great.

I kinda thought Massive Automate was preferable if using Banish > Kamikaze. Massive Hunter by itself works just fine for that?

[Maenara]

-15% damage bonus
-teleports
-Katana Combat Finish

I didn't know Massive Hunter did any of that stuff.



I kinda thought Massive Automate was preferable if using Banish > Kamikaze. Massive Hunter by itself works just fine for that?

Combat Escape =/= Katana Combat.

[Bellion]

That all depends on how many BA->KA x 2 you intend to do in a row.

[LonelyGaruga]

Combat Escape =/= Katana Combat.

Can't use Combat Escape without Katana Combat, so...yeah.

[Maenara]

Can't use Combat Escape without Katana Combat, so...yeah.

For the sake of comparison, it's an active skill that just happens to always activate at the same time as another.

What you're arguing is a bit like arguing PP Save Bullet also grants 2.55x damage to a specific part of an enemy for 20 seconds after you normal attack it, because PP Save Bullet can't be active unless you load weakbullet(Or another, inferior bullet), or like arguing High Time gives +50 PP while TMGs are equipped, or even like Flame Tech S Charge gives +40% damage to fire techs. They don't - other skills do.

[LonelyGaruga]

I guess I have to spell it out. You're comparing one skill with one skill. What you should be doing is comparing a full skill tree with another full skill tree. By itself, Combat Escape is somewhat comparable to Massive Hunter if you just look at what the skills do, but because it's tied to Katana Combat, a damage bonus, Katana Combat Finish, and can be acquired with minimal SP investment, it isn't all that similar to Massive Hunter in practice.

I mean really, it'd be pretty stupid to say "fire techs don't charge faster than other techs if you don't get Flame Tech S Charge" in the context of a fire build, right? How does it make more sense to argue that Combat Escape is functionally similar to Massive Hunter in the context of Br/Hu then?

[KazukiQZ]

^Combat Escape and Massive Hunter, both are defensive options for BRHU. Both let the user to deal damage almost uninterrupted (almost, because Massive Hunter still has stun to worry about) in 65 seconds (20 from KC, 45 from MH). This also translate to more DPS.

In short: Both skills make BRHU's DPS almost uninterrupted in 65 seconds, especially during bossfight, if used one after another.

[Maenara]

I guess I have to spell it out. You're comparing one skill with one skill. What you should be doing is comparing a full skill tree with another full skill tree. By itself, Combat Escape is somewhat comparable to Massive Hunter if you just look at what the skills do, but because it's tied to Katana Combat, a damage bonus, Katana Combat Finish, and can be acquired with minimal SP investment, it isn't all that similar to Massive Hunter in practice.

I mean really, it'd be pretty stupid to say "fire techs don't charge faster than other techs if you don't get Flame Tech S Charge" in the context of a fire build, right? How does it make more sense to argue that Combat Escape is functionally similar to Massive Hunter in the context of Br/Hu then?

Yeah, you know, except my original point was clearly "If it's worth spending 5 SP in Combat Escape, it's worth spending 5 SP in Massive Hunter, too."

If you want to argue entire builds, I suppose I should point out that FI/BR with the Evil katana is stronger than anything BR/HU could possibly bring to the table. What strengths does BR/HU bring to the table? It brings survivability. Combat Escape, Massive Hunter, Automate Halfline, Iron Will, Never Give Up. That isn't to say that BR/HU is bad, but its strengths should be utilized if you're going to run with it in the first place.

[LonelyGaruga]

^Combat Escape and Massive Hunter, both are defensive options for BRHU. Both let the user to deal damage almost uninterrupted (almost, because Massive Hunter still has stun to worry about) in 65 seconds (20 from KC, 45 from MH). This also translate to more DPS.

In short: Both skills make BRHU's DPS almost uninterrupted in 65 seconds, especially during bossfight, if used one after another.

What part about blocking that MH requires you not to do in order to benefit from it are people missing? The idea isn't even to use katana at all with MH in the first place. It's for bows.


What strengths does BR/HU bring to the table?

-Better bow usage (Br/Hu is a hybrid, not a katana specialist)
-Better mobbing
-Better subclass weapons
-Massive Hunter for Banish > KA (not Massive Hunter for mobbing, not Massive Hunter for bossing with a katana, Massive Hunter for bow usage)
-Non-conditional damage allowing for more tactical combat (like Hatou from behind Vol Dragon to maximize hits)

etc etc. Don't even need to drag up survival to make a case for Br/Hu.

Oh and FYI Massive Hunter is actually an 11 SP investment and isn't remotely as useful as Combat Escape is, so that comparison is pretty awful. And lol Iron Will being mentioned as a plus for Hunter, who even uses that outside of Fi/Hu builds (and even then I don't like that at all)?

[Maenara]

What part about blocking that MH requires you not to do in order to benefit from it are people missing? The idea isn't even to use katana at all with MH in the first place. It's for bows.



-Better bow usage (Br/Hu is a hybrid, not a katana specialist)
-Better mobbing
-Better subclass weapons
-Massive Hunter for Banish > KA (not Massive Hunter for mobbing, not Massive Hunter for bossing with a katana, Massive Hunter for bow usage)
-Non-conditional damage allowing for more tactical combat (like Hatou from behind Vol Dragon to maximize hits)

etc etc. Don't even need to drag up survival to make a case for Br/Hu.

Oh and FYI Massive Hunter is actually an 11 SP investment and isn't remotely as useful as Combat Escape is, so that comparison is pretty awful. And lol Iron Will being mentioned as a plus for Hunter, who even uses that outside of Fi/Hu builds (and even then I don't like that at all)?

>bringing up bow usage on a BR/HU tree that has literally zero bow skills specced

[LonelyGaruga]

I was never talking about Maninbluejumpsuit's build in the first place in that post. Why would you even bring that build up? His build has even less value for Massive Hunter than a hybrid would.

[KazukiQZ]

^Hybrid? You mean like this?
http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/skillcalc.php?10eTbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxIm da0fdodBIbhni2IodnINGAqnIdJksNI20000006doIn0000000 jdoib0000000fdo0000000Io00000007oIn00000000dodB4Nf dFHnjsNHSHxdB00000jdoIb0000000j

[Z-0]

>bringing up bow usage on a BR/HU tree that has literally zero bow skills specced
Actually, even with zero bow skills specced, Bow is still far better DPS than Katana will ever be for single target. This goes for full S-Atk builds too. Episode 3 Kamikaze with Banish Arrow is too powerful to pass up.

Eh? How come it's entirely luck now? Mind explaning? I'm curious o-o Haven't played any CM since that time I partied up with you due to irl things too >.<
Everyone who is decent at CM now knows how to get max score; getting top on the leaderboards now is just how patient you are to be lucky enough to pick up the VR capsule as Vomos dies.

[Maenara]

I was never talking about Maninbluejumpsuit's build in the first place in that post. Why would you even bring that build up? His build has even less value for Massive Hunter than a hybrid would.

At this point, I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing. Your point has changed like three times, while mine hasn't changed once. It's like you're incapable of backing down in any authentic way.
We were always talking about his tree, and how 44 S-atk was worth less than +4 SP into Massive Hunter. Never once was that not apparent, and yet here you are arguing that Massive Hunter is worse than Combat Escape(A skill bound to S-atk-only weapon) on some theoretical bow-katana hybrid BR/HU tree that was never talked about until it was convenient for you to bring it up.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

His build has even less value for Massive Hunter than a hybrid would.

Part of the reason I only have one point in it.


Actually, even with zero bow skills specced, Bow is still far better DPS than Katana will ever be for single target. This goes for full S-Atk builds too. Episode 3 Kamikaze with Banish Arrow is too powerful to pass up.


So I've heard. Problem is, my ideal karen is a bit far ahead in damage value (which is why I sold off my glass klien). Once I do have ideal bow eventually maybe, I would consider something like this braver tree.


^Hybrid? You mean like this?
http://pso2-skill.pwnedgalaxy.net/skillcalc.php?10eTbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxImbxIm da0fdodBIbhni2IodnINGAqnIdJksNI20000006doIn0000000 jdoib0000000fdo0000000Io00000007oIn00000000dodB4Nf dFHnjsNHSHxdB00000jdoIb0000000j

Til then, only really using the bow for shit I can't be bothered to chase down.
edit: I just don't want to use massive hunter + automate. To me, that's a line I refuse to cross. Quickmate is enough for me.

[Radical Dreamer]

Leaderboards are boring as fuck in CM right now, because it's entirely luck and not really based on skill anymore.

Even so, Challenge Mode seems like a step in the right direction for PSO2's competitive side compared to Time Attacks, and it'd be great if Sega could develop it further. I do agree that CM is too luck-based, but RNG is a problem that plagues this game in general.

[LonelyGaruga]

At this point, I'm not even sure you know what you're arguing. Your point has changed like three times, while mine hasn't changed once. It's like you're incapable of backing down in any authentic way.
We were always talking about his tree, and how 44 S-atk was worth less than +4 SP into Massive Hunter. Never once was that not apparent, and yet here you are arguing that Massive Hunter is worse than Combat Escape(A skill bound to S-atk-only weapon) on some theoretical bow-katana hybrid BR/HU tree that was never talked about until it was convenient for you to bring it up.

My argument has only been that Combat Escape has more going for it than Massive Hunter does, so comparing the two is needlessly simple-minded and makes no sense. "Massive Hunter is like Combat Escape, so you should get Massive Hunter" is utterly ridiculous logic no different from the "PSO2 is for the PC and the Vita, therefore PSO2 is a Vita game" thing you were going on about elsewhere.


If you want to argue entire builds, I suppose I should point out that FI/BR with the Evil katana is stronger than anything BR/HU could possibly bring to the table. What strengths does BR/HU bring to the table? It brings survivability. Combat Escape, Massive Hunter, Automate Halfline, Iron Will, Never Give Up. That isn't to say that BR/HU is bad, but its strengths should be utilized if you're going to run with it in the first place.

How, in any form or fashion, this isn't a comparison between the two combination's advantages, completely escapes me. I see no reason to believe that this specific paragraph was ever about what Maininbluejumpsuit's options are for his build. You bring up Fi/Br as a superior option based on inaccurate assumptions. You misdiagnose Br/Hu's strengths as merely being superior survival ability, so I gave multiple examples of how Br/Hu is better than Fi/Br without ever touching upon superior defensive abilities. Br/Hu is better played as a hybrid, so I brought up playing a hybrid build.

Essentially, my arguments have been the nature of "No, you're oversimplifying things, you're not looking at the bigger picture", in case it isn't clear enough for you. I hope you get it now, because I see no reason to put up with accusations that I don't even know my own argument. That's a childish and stupid thing to suggest. Just because you can't follow or incorrectly assess why I'm arguing doesn't mean I don't know what I'm arguing about.

But that's exactly the kind of assumption that you would make based off the assumptions that I'm arguing about in the first place, so I don't see any reason to expect better from you, so whatever. I'm done.

[Maenara]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/3a3aa100d2d0eabdf9b8cb35aa49f705/tumblr_npkvo6TaX11rp83cro1_1280.gif

[Miles064]

: I just don't want to use massive hunter + automate. To me, that's a line I refuse to cross. Quickmate is enough for me.

Honestly, I wish I had never done it. I can take most everything but not having HU sub makes me uneasy. Automate/iron will has become sort of a clutch at this point. Still the moment I didn't have them I got killed by some really dumb stuff. Kicked into the air then kicked again as I was falling has happened way more then once. I guess I could just "never get hit" but if It's going to kill me before I can move it might as well just one hit me. Even stuff like Banther swipe spam automate can keep you up for. As GU/RA it just kills me.

I still try to dodge things with Hu sub because damage I don't take means more healing items for when I do get hit though. I do regret ever becoming so reliant on it however.

[Selphea]

-Better bow usage (Br/Hu is a hybrid, not a katana specialist)

Are you still saying Br/Hu does more Banish Kamikaze damage than Fi/Br?

[Z-0]

Even so, Challenge Mode seems like a step in the right direction for PSO2's competitive side compared to Time Attacks, and it'd be great if Sega could develop it further. I do agree that CM is too luck-based, but RNG is a problem that plagues this game in general.
I'm not really sure about that. The problem with CM in its current state being competitive is that it has an upper limit, which is completely wrong if we're trying to scale players' skill inside a quest. Because of this upper limit and how the end is handled, once players have reached the "top", there's no competitive aspect at all and it becomes 100% down to luck. What you have are a bunch of players who aren't aspiring to be better, just people who are "good enough".

I'd say that Time Attacks are fine as its content that meshes extremely well with how PSO2 works and plays. With PSO2 being a fast-paced action RNG, I'd argue that speedrun content is the best direction for PSO2 to go in for competitive play, whereas PSO2 is best played as a beat-'em-up for non-competitive play.

As far as I'm concerned, competitive play should always be about being able to become better and go above limits. Challenge Mode doesn't really work because of its upper limits (VR Gauge), and with drops being RNG, speed varies from run to run with the same people.

[Kondibon]

The problem with CM in its current state being competitive is that it has an upper limit, Isn't that just the nature of PvE based competition anyway? If anything, the problem would be that the upper limit (outside of rng) is too easy to reach.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I agree CM has less grounds to be competitive compared to TAs due to the hard performance ceiling, and the side of RNG, but it does hit a sweet-spot in content that rewards ability to play, and isn't 'run around in a fking circle'/'excube farm'.


massive gif is massive

Who made that sig pic of your character?

[Maenara]

Isn't that just the nature of PvE based competition anyway? If anything, the problem would be that the upper limit (outside of rng) is too easy to reach.

They could easily fix it by making it so each time you overfill the VR gauge, it converts the overflow into CM.



Who made that sig pic of your character?

Elazuls-Core; Lei-Lei/Leynas in-game. Had the image for a while but only just decided to make it into signature form. It'd be bigger, but I didn't want to turn it sideways. You can click the sig image for a bigger version, though you probably figured that out.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

They could easily fix it by making it so each time you overfill the VR gauge, it converts the overflow into CM.

Welp. Problem solved. So simple, Sega can't not do it...! ... Right...?!

[LonelyGaruga]

Are you still saying Br/Hu does more Banish Kamikaze damage than Fi/Br?

I never said that Br/Hu had a stronger Kamikaze Arrow than Fi/Br (but it does have a faster charging one, which makes it better for BA combos). I was talking about everything bows can do, not just one PA that Fi/Br only does better with Limit Break and Tech Arts active. And Br/Hu does in fact do more damage per Banish thanks to Bullet Bow Charge Bonus allowing for better combos (not to mention Massive Hunter access).

[Selphea]

Would you happen to know which combos Br/Hu are capable of due to the faster charging time?

[LonelyGaruga]

Actually, not really. There's like no discussion about it and I haven't picked up Br/Hu yet, still leveling stuff. I remember reading a bit but it didn't really sink in. Pretty sure you can find some talk in the Braver thread. There's also this.


The super secret 80% charge time strat in which 2 certain charged PAs + some uncharged PAs into 100 chain! . 3.

Double Kamikaze + something else I assume. You can't double Kamikaze (or double up on any PA for that matter) as Fi/Br because you'll lose Tech Arts JA Bonus, which Fi/Br needs to out-damage Br/Hu.

[Bellion]

Yeah, about that! Turns out you're just better off doing one charged and then uncharged spam for chains.
The benefit of that skill for chains is just the PP reduction since it applies to any chargeable PAs, but you don't have to charge it.

[Dammy]

is this braver thread?

[Maenara]

is this braver thread?

No, this is 'LonelyGaruga has to get in the last paragraph no matter the cost' thread.


Edit: oh wait, that's every thread (´・ω・`)

[TaigaUC]

Dunno what you guys are arguing about now.

I don't think Challenge is good for competing, people not wanting to improve aside (they still won't listen to my suggestions, even telling me not to drop dolls when I'm about to die).
The last 30 points or so are little more than a matter of getting lucky with final VR pickup timing, enemy behavior and drops (to some degree).

So getting first is just a matter of doing the same shit over and over until you happen to get a score higher than whoever else is doing it.
That's about an hour and a half of the same damn shit, and once you've got it down, the major difference really hinges on the last mission, particularly the very last bit.
Of course, minor mistakes such as failing the gauntlet or fanji mean you'll have to restart or keep going knowing you won't get a good score, which is equally as boring and repetitive.

There's also no reward for doing it with less people, and people who aren't in full groups get less score because of the party bonus.
The ranking is a terrible mess. And if you're not appointed one of the major roles, chances are that people in your own group aren't going to appreciate or recognize your skill or effort.
Then there's the fact that it doesn't matter how good you are if someone else screws up.
It's simply not worth the trouble. It's not gratifying or satisfying.
If there's going to be competition, it should at least cover those two things.

Or maybe I'm the only one who doesn't feel like having someone pick up the final VR at the right time is a spectacular achievement.

[Zorak000]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/3a3aa100d2d0eabdf9b8cb35aa49f705/tumblr_npkvo6TaX11rp83cro1_1280.gif

Agreed

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Agreed

Translate? I don't speak gif.

[Charmeleon]

With PSO2 being a fast-paced action RNG

Why yes, yes it is 8-)

[Selphea]

Translate? I don't speak gif.

Flip flop I think.

[Raid_Hirsh]

No, this is 'LonelyGaruga has to get in the last paragraph no matter the cost' thread.


Edit: oh wait, that's every thread (´・ω・`)

You nailed it, Maenara; I'm still chuckling after I read this a few minutes ago.

*No offense, LonelyGaruga*

[Maenara]

Flip flop I think.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALQCWUlinM

[Miles064]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ALQCWUlinM

Those must have not been in MHFU. That is adorable as fuck though. Really wish they would release an en pc mh.

[yoshiblue]

Elazuls-Core; Lei-Lei/Leynas in-game. Had the image for a while but only just decided to make it into signature form. It'd be bigger, but I didn't want to turn it sideways. You can click the sig image for a bigger version, though you probably figured that out.

Pretty cool.

[Zipzo]

Can someone explain this situation to me? Read a bit through the thread and wasn't able to gain even an inkling of an understanding as to what the change is or how it works, or why it's bad. Just came back from a big break. Thanks.

[Z-0]

Basically when you level up now, you get a class excube instead of 2 excubes (class excube being a Fi Excube, Hu Excube, Br Excube, etc. etc. depending on what you just levelled). You need a grand total of 21 of these for... 4SP.

It's an extremely lengthy grind for minimal reward to attempt to extend the game's length, instead of just say, increasing the level cap lol.

[Kondibon]

Can someone explain this situation to me? Read a bit through the thread and wasn't able to gain even an inkling of an understanding as to what the change is or how it works, or why it's bad. Just came back from a big break. Thanks.
At the level cap they changed the excubes you get from "leveling" into class specific excubes that you can use for the new SP COs... Except you only get one class excube per "level".
It's not bad on it's own since we didn't lose anything (you can convert a class exube into two normal ones), only gained another option. But the whole thing says a lot about Sega's design philosophy and isn't actually designed in a way that's considerate of a player's time and/or rewarding.

But I can, and will, say the same thing about gear too so eh. :wacko:

[Espri]

Well it gives you an excuse to keep playing capped characters, so why not?

[Kondibon]

Well it gives you an excuse to keep playing capped characters, so why not?Adding more interesting stuff to the excube shop with class excubes would have been better, like unique high end weapons, weapon camos, class addition passes for crafting etc.

People on both sides of the argument have said that the extra skill points aren't worth it for most class builds anyway, which makes the idea that they keep you playing moot.

[wefwq]

Well it gives you an excuse to keep playing capped characters, so why not?
But it prevent you from dancing in the lobby all day long :c

[GHNeko]

The class cube thing is a pain when you have 4 characters and like 8 different builds with varying class combos.

That being said, the grind itself isnt that bad but at this point they might as well remove the subclass exp restriction, or at least reduce it or some shit.

[wefwq]

The class cube thing is a pain when you have 4 characters and like 8 different builds with varying class combos.

That being said, the grind itself isnt that bad but at this point they might as well remove the subclass exp restriction, or at least reduce it or some shit.
But the game ain't gonna prolong itself with these so called "content".
Personally i would really like for SEGA to remove subclass EXP restriction bullshit.

[MidCap]

I just hate busting out inferior gear to play the class that was obviously intended to be the subclass. I play that class as little as possible because it is supposed to be the sub, or SUBORDINATE, class.

Back when Sega would simply raise the level cap, I would finish leveling my sub, put away my inferior subclass gear gear, and say, "Whew! I'm all done with that now until they raise the level cap again. Thank goodness because that was extremely boring!"

Now I basically have to do THAT way more often than I used to if I want my character to have "complete" base stats.

Anyone who thinks this is not a decline in fun, please review:

1. Previous amount of un-fun activity: 5 levels per subclass
2. New amount of un-fun activity: 12 level caps (which is the same as leveling) of subclass (or 21 if you didn't finish the last round)

From a purely mathematical standpoint, the game is increasing the amount of boring, dull, and unpleasant things that must be completed for normal progression. This is not a good formula for any game.

[ArcaneTechs]

I just hate busting out inferior gear to play the class that was obviously intended to be the subclass. I play that class as little as possible because it is supposed to be the sub, or SUBORDINATE, class.

Back when Sega would simply raise the level cap, I would finish leveling my sub, put away my inferior subclass gear gear, and say, "Whew! I'm all done with that now until they raise the level cap again. Thank goodness because that was extremely boring!"

Now I basically have to do THAT way more often than I used to if I want my character to have "complete" base stats.

Anyone who thinks this is not a decline in fun, please review:

1. Previous amount of un-fun activity: 5 levels per subclass
2. New amount of un-fun activity: 12 level caps (which is the same as leveling) of subclass (or 21 if you didn't finish the last round)

From a purely mathematical standpoint, the game is increasing the amount of boring, dull, and unpleasant things that must be completed for normal progression. This is not a good formula for any game.
Learn to use both classes to your full advantage instead of just one class, use Bio weps if you have to or 12* all class weps. Yes this game is boring right now but no excuse to not be able to take advantage of using everything you can with your class combo at this point.

and the LQ is coming tonight, I dont know why people are complaining when we all know your just gonna play lazy on your sub anyways to level it for cubes, I mean its pretty obvious people are going to do this. You have over a month to knock out those SP CO's if you want them done so badly

[Z-0]

People are complaining because no amount of efficiency or supposed "easiness" is going to make the system less stupid / boring.

I just use TD3 since it gives like 4M EXP a round to level my capped classes I'm not playing for cubes, but that doesn't mean I really want to, nor is it a good, or okay, system. I'd much rather they increase the level cap instead.

[wefwq]

I just hate busting out inferior gear to play the class that was obviously intended to be the subclass. I play that class as little as possible because it is supposed to be the sub, or SUBORDINATE, class.

Back when Sega would simply raise the level cap, I would finish leveling my sub, put away my inferior subclass gear gear, and say, "Whew! I'm all done with that now until they raise the level cap again. Thank goodness because that was extremely boring!"

Now I basically have to do THAT way more often than I used to if I want my character to have "complete" base stats.

Anyone who thinks this is not a decline in fun, please review:

1. Previous amount of un-fun activity: 5 levels per subclass
2. New amount of un-fun activity: 12 level caps (which is the same as leveling) of subclass (or 21 if you didn't finish the last round)

From a purely mathematical standpoint, the game is increasing the amount of boring, dull, and unpleasant things that must be completed for normal progression. This is not a good formula for any game.
Just use bio weapon, there's literally no excuse to not have at least one of them sitting with 50 element on your storage right now.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Just use bio weapon, there's literally no excuse to not have at least one of them sitting with 50 element on your storage right now.

Besides the fact it's inferior to real mainclass weapons, and it being a general waste of time, and resources to invest into for any other reason than level cap increases?

Seems like a perfect reason as to why I don't have a bio katana sitting around to me.

[Maenara]

no guys, it's not literally impossible to obtain cubes for your subclass so you have no right to complain duh