[RANT] Balance issues

[dingophone]

I''ll keep it short. SEGA, STOP BUFFING KATANAS. It's getting ridiculous.

[Mattykins]

Dude, katanas actually need a buff, nowadays

[FantasyHeaven]

Katanas are like the weakest weapon in the game

[Cortte]

Not only that, but why does it matter if a class gets buffed. I can only assume you don't use Katana, so worry about the class you do use.

[Achelousaurus]

I''ll keep it short. SEGA, STOP BUFFING KATANAS. It's getting ridiculous.
Have you been playing the game recently mate?
Or did you log in the last time during Shunka Star Online 2?

[elryan]

Buff source?

[Mattykins]

I think he's referring to the new PA

[GoldenFalcon]

I think he's referring to the new PA

Yeah, but why not complain about the new rifle PA while he's at it

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Katanas are like the weakest weapon in the game

Not really; I'd say DBs take that spot outside of the LB + tech canceling PBF gimmick. Katanas are definitely not what they were during shunka release while everything else was at episode 2-level, though.

The only time katanas may look OP is in SH, when the person using them is sporting >+100 atk affixes on everything with a 10603 ares (or ideal vs bosses specifically), and has less of a need to switch weapons to cover any weaknesses (which I can safely say is intended).

PS: I'm pretty sure they never gave hatou that one extra hit back, so there's that...

[elryan]

I think he's referring to the new PA

Ah.

I play Braver very, very extensively. Here's my analysis take on that skill:

Guren Tessen is a PA that attempts to combines Asagiri-rendan (AR) + Tsukumi-sazanka (TS). It deals damage like TS and is a gap closer like AR.

Unlike AR, it is not spammable to the point where you can dash cancel with it. But unlike AR also, the range coverage is pretty far.

Unlike TS, it doesn't let you to elevate up. But the skill allows you to maintain elevation (it doesn't lower your elevation post-cast. More on this later.)

The skill can be spammable to deal damage to a locked target, without using the 10 PP finisher, which makes it similar to TS, albeit more flashy but less damage.

One core problem I have with Katana Braver is the fact that the class has a VERY lacking aerial combat maneuverability. It has trouble tracking enemies mid-air and / or maneuver to break points of large enemies above ground. (e.g. Magatsu)

This PA aims to mend that problem. Because this PA is spammable without dropping you to the ground but ALSO tracks your enemy that was locked, this PA allows you to combine Katana Combat for elevation adjustment and the PA itself for position tracking while dealing damage.

Let's look on the real-world EQ case of this skill: Magatsu knees.

Usually when the EQ starts, a Katana user would need to use Katana Combat to teleport to the Magatsu Knee and spam TS as much as possible. Then if the leg moves, repeat.

Problem solved? Now how's this?

Magatsu shoulder pads and Katana Combat is on cooldown!

At this point, usually the katana user would just give up and simply stand on the opened chest platform and hit the non-WB point until the shoulder is opened by the rest of the team. Not cool.

With this skill, you can jump up to the vertical position of the shoulder pad, spam Guren-tessen for homing tracking while dealing damage at the same time. Brilliant.

This scenario also applicable to other airborne hitboxes.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

One core problem I have with Katana Braver is the fact that the class has a VERY lacking aerial combat maneuverability. It has trouble tracking enemies mid-air and / or maneuver to break points of large enemies above ground. (e.g. Magatsu)


Most who play katana braver knew this was something katanas sorely lacked for a long time, and is why guren is so necessary.

It's also a sign dingophone doesn't know what he's talking about, because if he did, he wouldn't be implying guren use = katanas OP

[LonelyGaruga]

Not really; I'd say DBs take that spot outside of the LB + tech canceling PBF gimmick.

1) DBs are definitely better than JBs and a few other weapons.
2) Would you remove WB and Satellite Cannon from Ranger?

[Kondibon]

2) Would you remove WB and Satellite Cannon from Ranger?Have you seen his other posts...? Of course he would.

[knight1301]

I''ll keep it short. SEGA, STOP BUFFING KATANAS. It's getting ridiculous.

My only wish is SEGA please add gryphon katana because this series look very beautiful :( :(

[LonelyGaruga]

Sorry, what I mean is remove it from consideration when comparing Ranger's weapons (namely AR in this context) with other weapons. Limit Break + PBF is a 212% damage increase to photon blades so yeah (1.2 * 2 * 1.3), and both weapons are primarily boss killers with limited mobbing capabilities (although DBs probably do it better than AR, what with Zondeel, Dispersion, etc). It doesn't really make that much sense to talk about DB while removing those tools, yet whine about AR.

Mostly though, it's the first one that's important. DBs are like Bouncer's best usable weapon, and not even a bad one. Just...not that great. I would say they were better than katana before PA crafting (don't know how it fares currently with crafted Kazan and Guren) since they at least excelled at something (boss killing), even if they weren't the greatest at it.

[Superia]

DBs are definitely better than JBs and a few other weapons.


I know that there is no strict weapon tier list, but approximately where do you see DBs in comparison to other weapons? I personally think they are better than JB, DS, Launcher (sometimes) and maybe WL.

[LonelyGaruga]

Well I guess forming a rough draft for a weapon tier list would be fine. Please note that I by no means think I know enough to actually make a tier list, just taking initiative here. Gonna be looking for input from other people on this for revision.

Mobbing:

S: Rod, Talis, Wand

A: Double Saber, Launcher

B: Sword (maybe A in Ultimate), Wired Lance, Partisan, Gunslash, Katana (might be A nowadays), Twin Machinegun

C: Twin Dagger, Knuckles, Dual Blade (might be B), Assault Rifle, Bullet Bow, Jet Boots

EDIT 1: Moved Double Saber to A, Partisan to B.

For bosses, I guess this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3274373#post3274373) is as good as anything.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Okay, I was a little harsh on DBs, but they're not better than katanas now with crafted kazan + guren in the mobbing department. Katanas are not among the worst weapons in the game, but they're not absurdly OP either. Crafted kazan does the same damage as it does uncrafted at its near-instant stage one charge (about 22k), but 50k+ with ideal + 2700 base attack and shifta drink on mobs at full charge (55k+ with ares. 60k+ if either gear, or combat active)

I find for bossing katana gear + combat + ketos -> hatou spam -> finish is up there with DB combos, but i'd argue katanas are better outside of it.

[milranduil]

Unlike AR, it is not spammable to the point where you can dash cancel with it. But unlike AR also, the range coverage is pretty far.

orly?
[spoiler-box]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyIpmDKvuv8
[/spoiler-box]

[LonelyGaruga]

Well I never said DBs had better mobbing than katana, just that they had things they could do that they weren't average at (but now katana has good mobbing). And not to be nitpicky, but crafted Kazan actually does slightly more than half the damage it would do uncrafted at level 1 charge. Power notation is 30% > 45% > 100% for no charge/stage 1/stage 2. With an average power rating, crafted Kazan gets 2164 power and an extra 10% modifier uncrafted doesn't get, that gives it a power notation of 1071.

This is only a little more than twice Kanran's damage (so two Kanran do almost the same damage), so either swiki is wildly off or you're doing the second level charge. Or maybe Kanran really does that much damage, I dunno. Still leveling Br/Hu here.

[GoldenFalcon]

I can't imagine how mobbing is C for DB and JB when they have Disperse and Moment Gale

[Selphea]

TIL TMGs are better at mobbing than JBs and DBs.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Well I never said DBs had better mobbing than katana, just that they had things they could do that they weren't average at (but now katana has good mobbing). And not to be nitpicky, but crafted Kazan actually does slightly more than half the damage it would do uncrafted at level 1 charge. Power notation is 30% > 45% > 100% for no charge/stage 1/stage 2. With an average power rating, crafted Kazan gets 2164 power and an extra 10% modifier uncrafted doesn't get, that gives it a power notation of 1071.

This is only a little more than twice Kanran's damage (so two Kanran do almost the same damage), so either swiki is wildly off or you're doing the second level charge. Or maybe Kanran really does that much damage, I dunno. Still leveling Br/Hu here.

10603 ideal karen vs mobs with shifta drink gets me:

10k kanrans (5k x 2)
~12-13k uncharged kazan zeros
~22k stage one (uncrafted kazan isn't much different in damage from this in damage)
~50k stage two

My craft is +175 power, -8pp cost btw.

[LonelyGaruga]

I can't imagine how mobbing is C for DB and JB when they have Disperse and Moment Gale

Debating putting them in B, but they don't seem very good. Disperse isn't very strong, Zondeel is good for XH and Ultimate but DBs don't really have much in the way of options besides Heavenly Kite, which admittedly is pretty good. Moment Gale is rather weak for how long it takes, and JBs have poor synergy with Zondeel outside of lightning weak areas.

Though the fact that Bouncer has Zondeel at all probably warrants putting its weapons in B. I'd like more input before making any changes though, don't wanna just flip flop whenever anyone suggests a change.


TIL TMGs are better at mobbing than JBs and DBs.

Debating putting TMGs (and Gunslash for that matter) in C. I'll have to reiterate I guess.


Please note that I by no means think I know enough to actually make a tier list, just taking initiative here. Gonna be looking for input from other people on this for revision.

Gunner is the class I know least about, and it shows. So if you have anything to say about how it stands, or anything constructive to say at all in regards to constructing a tier list, please say so.


10k kanrans

That's about right then. I thought the Kanran damage was lower because IIRC its low damage is something you complain about. I guess 10K is a little low in XH though, considering Dagan have like 33K. Kanran is probably one of the PAs that Sega plans to improve with that upcoming katana buff.

[GoldenFalcon]

10603 ideal

What the heck does this mean?

[The Walrus]

+10 60 Element Potential lvl 3

[Charmeleon]

Well I guess forming a rough draft for a weapon tier list would be fine. Please note that I by no means think I know enough to actually make a tier list, just taking initiative here. Gonna be looking for input from other people on this for revision.

Mobbing:

S: Rod, Talis, Wand

A: Partisan, Launcher

B: Sword (maybe A in Ultimate), Wired Lance, Double Saber (Chaos Riser might warrant A), Gunslash, Katana (might be A nowadays), Twin Machinegun

C: Twin Dagger, Knuckles, Dual Blade (might be B), Assault Rifle, Bullet Bow, Jet Boots

For bosses, I guess this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3274373#post3274373) is as good as anything.

How well a weapon can mob compared to others can vary depending on the content you're talking about. I would say partisan is A rank in SH and below, but B rank in XH due to poor pp efficiency, bad recovery, and gear issues when spawns take more than three PAs to wipe out. Vol Graptor is really its only saving grace for pp efficiency (Tear Grid too, but it's honestly quite bad in most scenarios), and that's mostly applicable to single target damage rather than mobbing.

On the other hand I would say double sabers have B tier mobbing in SH and A tier mobbing in XH for reasons also related to pp and gear scaling with enemy hp. Building DS gear for Chaos Riser in SH is often not even worth the time since everything one shots, and in MPAs you won't easily be able to get off 3G Chaos Risers because everyone will be one shotting the mobs you're trying to build gear off of. In XH, building gear is quite easy because things live longer, so being able to spam 3G Chaos Risers will almost feel like having TB Zondeel available to you all the time. On top of that, DS is very pp efficient with great recovery, making its mobbing very sustainable. In Ultimate Lilipa you can recover around 50-100 pp just in one normal attack after a Chaos Riser; you'll rarely run into pp problems using DS for XH/Ult mobbing.

Ponthi's Ult Lilipa video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOnKGTFN6Qs) demonstrates my points pretty well. The only time he pulls out a partizan is to pick off remaining single targets with Vol Graptor combos. I also find it very amusing that he only uses two different weapon palettes for mobbing in the entire video. And he uses boots for shifta. lol

[GoldenFalcon]

+10 60 Element Potential lvl 3

I thought people called them +40

[The Walrus]

idk why it's done that way now

[Bellion]

^They're the same thing!

By the way, Zondeel+Immortal Dove is a thing for mobbing.

[Imjake]

Oh wow. Every class can be OP as hell.

[LonelyGaruga]

*snip*

I'd like to concentrate on XH and Ultimate for making tier lists since we're gradually getting phased into more emphasis on that level of content. Pretty detailed and good argument for the changes so I went and made them.


^They're the same thing!

By the way, Zondeel+Immortal Dove is a thing for mobbing.

Oh, I guess so. I figured jump cancels would ruin TAJAB. No need to jump cancel?

P.S. can other players more qualified than myself pls make tier lists kthx

[TwistedShaerk]

*snip*

This was something I didn't really figure out until I tried to do solo runs in XH Kuronia admittedly, but experimenting between the two, my Double Saber does more work with a lot less hassle against a vast majority of the mobs. Using a Meteor Cudgel though because I didn't think to spend the Badges on the Xie Double Saber instead of the Katana, and now I kind of regret it.

Then Gryphon farming gave me all the 13*s I didn't want(WLs, TMGs, and Rod). :wacko:

[Kondibon]

P.S. can other players more qualified than myself pls make tier lists kthxOh oh! I like categorizing things!

For Mobbing

S: Rod, Talis, Wand
A: Launcher, Partisan
B: Sword, Wired Lance, Mech Guns, Jet Boots, Dual Blades, Katana
C: Gunslash, Rifle, Double Saber
D: Twin Daggers, Bullet Bow, Knuckles

For bossing.

S: Rifle, Bullet Bow, Mech Guns, Dual Blades
A: Partisan, Wired Lance
B: Rod, Sword, Jet Boots, Knuckles
C: Talis, Katana, Double Saber
D: Wand

Gunslash and double sabers I'm not really sure about. I don't use them often enough.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

For bossing.

C: Katana


Ah no. Granted, I use ideal karen, so I can burn ketos proi and not lose damage unlike ares-users. Killing SH bosses in under 30 seconds (and rodos in one down phase) is as easy to do with katanas as most other weapons. At XH+, hatou dps is still high, and more often than not, I end up 'tanking' enemies I spam it against.

That C rank only applies to... magatsu maybe because of the inability to make use of hatou.

Double saber really shouldn't be a C rank in mobbing at all, btw. Chaos riser should make them at least B, if not, A.



That's about right then. I thought the Kanran damage was lower because IIRC its low damage is something you complain about. I guess 10K is a little low in XH though, considering Dagan have like 33K. Kanran is probably one of the PAs that Sega plans to improve with that upcoming katana buff.



On the other hand I would say double sabers have B tier mobbing in SH and A tier mobbing in XH for reasons also related to pp and gear scaling with enemy hp. Building DS gear for Chaos Riser in SH is often not even worth the time since everything one shots, and in MPAs you won't easily be able to get off 3G Chaos Risers because everyone will be one shotting the mobs you're trying to build gear off of. In XH, building gear is quite easy because things live longer, so being able to spam 3G Chaos Risers will almost feel like having TB Zondeel available to you all the time. On top of that, DS is very pp efficient with great recovery, making its mobbing very sustainable. In Ultimate Lilipa you can recover around 50-100 pp just in one normal attack after a Chaos Riser; you'll rarely run into pp problems using DS for XH/Ult mobbing.


Pretty much outlined why I wanted a kanran/fudou craft that jerks all targets hit by them to the user, but I can't complain as much ever since we got kazan zero. Kanran is good up to SH, but using it against XH/ult enemies is a quick reminder that it's the single least damage : pp efficient wide-range melee PA in the game afaik (and no, combat finish every minute and a half didn't exactly make up for that).

[Kondibon]

Ah no. Granted, I use ideal karen, so I can burn ketos proi and not lose damage unlike ares-users. Killing SH bosses in under 30 seconds is as easy to do with katanas as most other weapons.It's not really about ease. And like Garuga said, SH is old hat, there's no more point in using that for refrence than there is VH. It's also worth mentioning that these are all relative. All being a C means is that the A-B weapons are better at it, not that katana can't be a good bossing weapon. Talis and double sabers aren't exactly terrible for bosses either.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's not really about ease. And like Garuga said, SH is old hat, there's no more point in using that for refrence than there is VH. It's also worth mentioning that these are all relative. All being a C means is that the A-B weapons are better at it, not that katana can't be a good bossing weapon. Talis and double sabers aren't exactly terrible for bosses either.

And most of the weapons you put on higher rankings use similar gimmicks to katana. Where do you even draw the lines? This looks more like a magatsu tier list. I liked the 2ch list better where katana was rightfully on par with most other melee weapons.

Just repeating, dual sabers should not be C rank in mobbing, unless we're only talking about maps full of pull-resistant enemies.

[Kondibon]

And most of the weapons you put on higher rankings use similar gimmicks to katana. Where do you even draw the lines? This looks more like a magatsu tier list. I liked the 2ch list better where katana was rightfully on par with most other melee weapons.

Just repeating, dual sabers should not be C rank in mobbing, unless we're only talking about maps full of pull-resistant enemies.
I literally threw this together based on personal experience and conjecture alone. It's not the end all and be all, I just like making lists and categorizing things.

[GoldenFalcon]

Like, if we're here to nitpick tiers, I think Talis would be above Rod purely based on Talis Tech Bonus

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I literally threw this together based on personal experience and conjecture alone. It's not the end all and be all, I just like making lists and categorizing things.

:wacko:


Like, if we're here to nitpick tiers, I think Talis would be above Rod purely based on Talis Tech Bonus

Some say having to throw the talis again every 3 casts (or even less if forced to move) kinda negates the benefits.

[GoldenFalcon]

Some say having to throw the talis again every 3 casts (or even less if forced to move) kinda negates the benefits.

Well, I can see how that's an issue with Ilbarta, but Namegid is a thing

[Kondibon]

Some say having to throw the talis again every 3 casts (or even less if forced to move) kinda negates the benefits.I didn't put much stock into that because if the boss is aggressive enough you end up dodging a lot anyway. But that just goes into what Selphea was saying in the other thread, about how different weapons are good or bad depending on factors outside the weapon itself.

I put it below rod because it has weaker compound techs. :wacko:

EDIT: it's worth mentioning that I actually think Talis is stronger for Ilbarta in situations where you don't want to, or can't use any pp restoring things, if only because you can throw them to get back enough pp before the ilbarta chain ends.

[dingophone]

Wow, glad I got a whole discussion going! Nah I know katanas aren't actually OP, it's all dependent on the player using them really. Any weapon can be OP in the right hands.

But really, interesting opinions. How do people feel the classes (in general) stack against each other?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Wow, glad I got a whole discussion going! Nah I know katanas aren't actually OP, it's all dependent on the player using them really. Any weapon can be OP in the right hands.

But really, interesting opinions. How do people feel the classes (in general) stack against each other?

They're all solid. Some just have more absurd gimmicks than others.

[TaigaUC]

Yes, they're all pretty solid now.
I personally enjoy Fi/Hu, Ra/Br, Te/Hu.
Br/Hu is more fun now with Guren Tessen and a top tier Katana.

[Xaelouse]

With Kurono, I'd put Sword in A mobbing at this point. Has every tool to handle every mob in there in an efficient manner.