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EvilMag
Aug 12, 2015, 02:08 PM
http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2015/08/150811a.html

Mattykins
Aug 12, 2015, 02:17 PM
Man, I hope it's not just extra damage. Gu needs some deep fixing to be good again.

Bellion
Aug 12, 2015, 02:19 PM
Looks like they intend to buff katana through katana gear with power increase, pp recovery, and making gear easier to manage. Gu information not present yet but looks like they are finally budging to buff it.

elryan
Aug 12, 2015, 02:21 PM
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YESSSSS

Ninja insert:


Aside from playing Braver extensively, I also main Gunner. Here's my comprehensive take on buffing Gunner:

Currently there are issues with Gunner:
1. Chain Trigger as main DPS / burst vs Boss is very strong but unreliable.
2. Poor mobility on the ground, which in turn harms mobbing capability.
3. PP regeneration is still not enough, amazingly.
4. Showtime Star provides good damage sustenance (prevents that 1.3x TMG Gear damage boost dropping) but in turn also creates another problem: its 1.2x damage boost dropped if you get hit by stray attacks.
5. Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim strong but throws enemies everywhere, preventing you to actually use them for mobbing. :|

While PSO2 developers improved Gunner playstyle DRAMATICALLY by nerfing SRoll-JA and buffing everything else, (gameplay was monotonous, now MUCH more exciting) those issues mentioned above has not been fixed.

Chain Trigger itself is a minigame: it requires you to focus fire on a specific coordinate on the enemy part. Upon success, you're rewarded with huge damage burst and speeds up the cooldown cycle for the next chain session. This begs a question: What if you fail?

When you failed Chain Trigger, not only you missed a potential for dealing damage, but you also need to wait for quite a while before you can use your next Chain Trigger. Not fun.

Chain Trigger can be fixed NOT by actually letting you to hit anywhere on the enemy it applied and stacks (doing so will remove the 'fun' of Chain Trigger :D), but can be fixed by removing the cooldown altogether. If you fail, you can reattempt. If you success, you get damage burst. Sounds OP? Tell that to those boss OHKO-ing RA / JB BO / FO.

As for the second issue, I love how bow works. It actually has side step. Why can't we have that on Gunner?

Third issue can be fixed by increasing TMG Mastery PP recovery. We need Deband PP Restorate level of PP recovery. While at that, please buff that critical damage; 5% doesn't cut it.

Fourth issue can be fixed by just scrapping Showtime altogether. The core concept of the skill is flawed and is just a big bad band-aid. Make TMG gear doesn't drop when you get hit by damage dammit. What about that 1.2x High Time damage boost? Make Aerial Advance works when you're airborne instead of hitting airborne enemy.

And finally, fix Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim to stagger the enemy instead of launching them. Problem solved.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 02:25 PM
I hope this works out well and they don't get overbuffed.

isCasted
Aug 12, 2015, 02:26 PM
Braver... maybe it's slightly weak, but Counter and gear are already superstrong. Heck, it was strong enough before its latest buff. They should be focusing on something else. For example, making Bows more useful for non-Bow specs.

If nothing is said about Gu, then it must be something major. Like, fixing hitboxes, buffing speed of PAs and S-Roll, changing skill trees to actually support PAs like Reverse Tap and Heel Stab... or at least I hope so. So many TMG-exclusive skills, yet in many situations you'd rather use Gunslash, Rifle or even Partizans and WLs. Even if they plain double TMGs' damage all around, those problems will still be causing frustrations.

Still, good news are good.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 02:45 PM
Honestly they should just bring S-Roll JA back up to 200% and bring guld milla's potential back to tank status. Oh, and make shunka super OP again

RIP episode 2 meta

un1t27
Aug 12, 2015, 02:52 PM
Please Please Please....

https://d.maxfile.ro/zhawrnopwr.gif

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 02:58 PM
Honestly they should just bring S-Roll JA back up to 200% and bring guld milla's potential back to tank status. Oh, and make shunka super OP again

RIP episode 2 metaI can't tell if you're serious or not.


That said, I do think S-roll JA should be 20 or 25% instead of just 10%. >_> Like, yeah it was OP before, but now it's useless. It should be like tech arts JA. Something you take advantage of when it's convenient but not something that's the majority of your damage.

Atmius
Aug 12, 2015, 02:59 PM
Honestly they should just bring S-Roll JA back up to 200% and bring guld milla's potential back to tank status. Oh, and make shunka super OP again

That's basically even out the playing field again, given that they nerfed the shit out of shunka, and then released an assload of OP PA's. I never got why they nerfed gul milla but not elder pain though.

EvilMag
Aug 12, 2015, 03:04 PM
it is pretty surprising to see they are finally buffing GU when they pretty much had the mentality of "Other classes are OHKOing bosses? BETTER NERF GRENINJGUNNER!"

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 12, 2015, 03:05 PM
They should be focusing on something else. For example, making Bows more useful for non-Bow specs.


They already are. ZO would be the first to chime in 'it's pointless to boss with a katana because bow with no R atk investment is still better'.

Not that it keeps me from making use of ideal karen, and katanas for bossing because I'd like to be able to do more than just BA->KA, like being mobile, parrying, and going invincible.

Flaoc
Aug 12, 2015, 03:06 PM
They already are. ZO would be the first to chime in 'it's pointless to boss with a katana because bow with no R atk investment is still better'.

Not that it keeps me from making use of ideal karen, and katanas for bossing because I'd like to be able to do more than just BA->KA, like being mobile, parrying, and going invincible.

he will say that but its not exactly ideal in all bossing situations (the bow on bosses im talking about)

NexusAZ
Aug 12, 2015, 03:07 PM
That's basically even out the playing field again, given that they nerfed the shit out of shunka, and then released an assload of OP PA's. I never got why they nerfed gul milla but not elder pain though.

Probably because GM attacks much more quickly than Elder does. With IF, you were pretty much able to tank anything in the game that didn't one-shot you.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 03:07 PM
I can't tell if you're serious or not.

Mostly serious. Even 100% S-Roll JA wouldn't be as impractical as you'd think, considering most of the other content that came out since the nerf.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 03:10 PM
That's basically even out the playing field again, given that they nerfed the shit out of shunka, and then released an assload of OP PA's. I never got why they nerfed gul milla but not elder pain though.The problem with shunka was always that it was good enough in most situations that, even if there was a PA that was technically better for that situation, shunka could still keep up. I really think they should have increased the PP cost instead of decreasing the damage though it was too easy to spam. They've already proven that they can make PAs with separated PP costs and that was something I had wanted to see for shunka.


Mostly serious. Even 100% S-Roll JA wouldn't be as impractical as you'd think, considering most of the other content that came out since the nerf.
Loading all that damage onto S-roll JA, basically made any PA that didn't work well with it useless. I don't hate the skill, I just hated the fact that anything you couldn't S-roll into well was terrible because the skill was such a big chunk of your damage multipliers. I have no problem with gunners dealing as much damage as they did when S-roll was at its prime. I have a problem with S-roll being the biggest source of that damage compared to everything else combined.



EDIT: Basically, to both of you, I have no problem with shunka and s-roll JA being buffed, I just think buffing them back to where they were before will bring us back to the horrible lack of variety both weapons had before they were nerfed instead of keeping the variety we have now and just evening things out more.

The Walrus
Aug 12, 2015, 03:13 PM
C-can we buff bouncer too ;-;

or at least break stance

yoshiblue
Aug 12, 2015, 03:19 PM
Would be cool if break stance started to lower defense stats over time.

Maenara
Aug 12, 2015, 03:25 PM
Twice Chain should become main class only but work with any weapon type. Alternatively, non-main class only, but work with any R-atk weapon type.

Natsu Nem
Aug 12, 2015, 03:26 PM
Can they make GU something that's not an anti-synergistic mechanical clusterfuck?

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 03:27 PM
How to make braver good by itself: weak arrow

ugh sega pls

Maenara
Aug 12, 2015, 03:29 PM
How to make braver good by itself: weak arrow

ugh sega pls

lol no

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 03:29 PM
C-can we buff bouncer too ;-;

or at least break stanceI would also like BO buffs.


Can they make GU something that's not an anti-synergistic mechanical clusterfuck?What's anti-synergistic about it? ._.


Twice Chain should become main class only but work with any weapon type. Alternatively, non-main class only, but work with any R-atk weapon type.I'd be ok with either of those. I'd also like stuff like ZRA to work with other damage types like the ZR PSE does.

Mattykins
Aug 12, 2015, 03:36 PM
Sega should get their heads out of their asses and let Break Stance work on already-broken parts, already :T

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 03:38 PM
Sega should get their heads out of their asses and let Break Stance work on already-broken parts, already :T

That kinda defeats the purpose of the skill though. Break SD Bonus is good enough TBH.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 03:38 PM
Sega should get their heads out of their asses and let Break Stance work on already-broken parts, already :TI don't even think that's a case of them "having their heads up their asses" so much as broken parts having an entirely separate hitbox with its own properties. That said, I don't see how much that would help break stance in general.


That kinda defeats the purpose of the skill though. Break SD Bonus is good enough TBH.
No it's not. It's a 15% damage main class only skill that only works for a single weapon type.

[Ayumi]
Aug 12, 2015, 03:44 PM
Twice Chain should become main class only but work with any weapon type. Alternatively, non-main class only, but work with any R-atk weapon type.

No no NO NO NO NO NO! NO! NO! NO!!!!!

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 03:46 PM
No it's not. It's a 15% damage main class only skill that only works for a single weapon type.

Considering the fact that it's an extension of a stance meant for breaking parts, it's perfectly fine, and shouldn't be treated as a "general use" skill.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 03:52 PM
and shouldn't be treated as a "general use" skill.That's the whole problem with break stance, the point investment isn't worth it for what it does. It would be fine as a normal passive skill, but as a stance it doesn't make sense. Hell, it could be replaced with a defensive stance and that would probably be more worth considering. I:

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 12, 2015, 03:53 PM
That kinda defeats the purpose of the skill though. Break SD Bonus is good enough TBH.

Mainclass only

DB only

No it isn't.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 12, 2015, 03:57 PM
Looks like they intend to buff katana through katana gear with power increase

To be clear, and to make sure you didn't typo anything, are they only planning to increase the damage bonus of katana gear, or will they increase PA power?

Bellion
Aug 12, 2015, 04:04 PM
Well katana gear normally increases attack power and crit by a percentage. On that site it says just damage increase so it is not limited to pa only. Whether we are getting just more attack stats increase or an actual modifier I do not know.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 12, 2015, 04:21 PM
They already are. ZO would be the first to chime in 'it's pointless to boss with a katana because bow with no R atk investment is still better'.

Not that it keeps me from making use of ideal karen, and katanas for bossing because I'd like to be able to do more than just BA->KA, like being mobile, parrying, and going invincible.

So basically, #playstyle. Good on you I guess.

btw, lots of people have said that about bows, not just Z-0. Hell, I would have said as much if I was browsing earlier (though I wouldn't say pointless, because nobody said that). No need to single him out for saying something that's accurate.

EvilMag
Aug 12, 2015, 04:26 PM
If there's one change I would like on the BR tree that would be Rare Mastery giving S and R Atk instead of DEX. >_>

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 12, 2015, 04:38 PM
(though I wouldn't say pointless, because nobody said that). No need to single him out for saying something that's accurate.

He either said 'buying ideal karen is pointless', or 'bossing with a katana is pointless', or both actually.

I only single him out because he's the only one on these forums to say that on at least 3 different occasions when the discussion involves ideal weapons/bossing with katana, and his POV boiled down to 'why do that when bow is better?' in those posts.


If there's one change I would like on the BR tree that would be Rare Mastery giving S and R Atk instead of DEX. >_>

That did bother me for a time, especially during Hu/Br susano days, but now, i barely care/often forget. At this point, they want to help Br, they may as well do that while they're at it.

Flaoc
Aug 12, 2015, 04:56 PM
i use both katana and bow for bossing.. sometimes bow really doesnt work that well unless ur planning on full tanking with massive hunter to get some of the kamikazes off (mostly in ultimate)

but otherwise banish kamikaze x2 goes in more or less

Bellion
Aug 12, 2015, 04:56 PM
Oh, damn, reading on my phone did not help, sorry. There is nothing that implies buffing of PA power, but only katana gear related stuff.

Searaphim
Aug 12, 2015, 05:40 PM
Nice, I hope they will buff Gunner in general and not just make it more compatible with other classes lol.

Selphea
Aug 12, 2015, 05:43 PM
I find Bow is significantly more DPS but completely lacks defense/agility.

Have a feeling the GU buff will be something lame like Messiah Time recovers 1 frame faster and Showtime Star requres 1 less point in Showtime.

Superia
Aug 12, 2015, 06:04 PM
What's anti-synergistic about it? ._.

There isn't much about it that I can label as truly anti-synergistic (other than the Magatsu TMG potentials), but it does seem pretty mechanically hindered.


You have Aerial Advance which at first sounds like a great skill since it's 20% damage but unintuitively requires the enemies to be airborne instead of you.


You have TMG gear, High Time and Perfect Keeper forming a powerhouse of modifiers, all of which can be neatly disabled by being damaged (though Toughness Time is now effective for at least keeping the gear).


The S-Roll skills are of negligible effect.


Deadline is not likely to kick in on XH difficulties and does not synergize well with the abilities focused on maintaining perfect condition.


Not only does this happen, but the modifiers aren't even good enough to warrant the difficulty in keeping them. It is clear that they wanted Gunner to have a higher skill floor than most classes, but there is no particular reward for it. Keeping your modifiers intact would be less of a problem if S-Roll were less wonky or if not every enemy had access to a fast, accurate projectile such as the infection bullet, but neither of those things are likely to change. Then CT has the potential to be so broken on boss enemies that the rest of Gunner almost doesn't matter.


Loading all that damage onto S-roll JA, basically made any PA that didn't work well with it useless. I don't hate the skill, I just hated the fact that anything you couldn't S-roll into well was terrible because the skill was such a big chunk of your damage multipliers. I have no problem with gunners dealing as much damage as they did when S-roll was at its prime. I have a problem with S-roll being the biggest source of that damage compared to everything else combined.

I'm with you there. Gunner is probably more fun than it was back then now that you aren't sacrificing huge amounts of damage by chaining PAs. However, I think the reverse has happened, where the PAs that used to be good with S-Roll now aren't useful at all (e.g. Heel Stab, Infinite Fire, Messiah Time etc). If it weren't for CT, I'd be all for S-Roll modifiers coming back since those PAs I mentioned with S-Roll would still do less DPS than current Satellite Aim without it (though Bullet Squall Zero might become a monster) and moves like Heel Stab might be usable again, though I suppose part of its usability came from Fury which works on Striking modifiers. There are several other weapons that just don't use a lot of their PAs too though (e.g. WL, Bullet Bow, Fighter weapons), so I guess that is not much of an argument.

I do hope the Gunner buffs help with the problems it actually has instead of making some unrelated change.

un1t27
Aug 12, 2015, 06:11 PM
Honestly they should just bring S-Roll JA back up to 200% and bring guld milla's potential back to tank status. Oh, and make shunka super OP again

RIP episode 2 meta

NOPE.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 06:15 PM
There isn't much about it that I can label as truly anti-synergistic (other than the Magatsu TMG potentials), but it does seem pretty mechanically hindered.


You have Aerial Advance which at first sounds like a great skill since it's 20% damage but unintuitively requires the enemies to be airborne instead of you.


You have TMG gear, High Time and Perfect Keeper forming a powerhouse of modifiers, all of which can be neatly disabled by being damaged (though Toughness Time is now effective for at least keeping the gear).


The S-Roll skills are of negligible effect.


Deadline is not likely to kick in on XH difficulties and does not synergize well with the abilities focused on maintaining perfect condition.


Not only does this happen, but the modifiers aren't even good enough to warrant the difficulty in keeping them. It is clear that they wanted Gunner to have a higher skill floor than most classes, but there is no particular reward for it. Keeping your modifiers intact would be less of a problem if S-Roll were less wonky or if not every enemy had access to a fast, accurate projectile such as the infection bullet, but neither of those things are likely to change. Then CT has the potential to be so broken on boss enemies that the rest of Gunner almost doesn't matter.Most of this I agree with, though I'm fine with gunner being about avoiding damage, given how strong s-roll is defensively. Aerial advanced and automate deadline stand out the most.



I'm with you there. Gunner is probably more fun than it was back then now that you aren't sacrificing huge amounts of damage by chaining PAs. However, I think the reverse has happened, where the PAs that used to be good with S-Roll now aren't useful at all (e.g. Heel Stab, Infinite Fire, Messiah Time etc). If it weren't for CT, I'd be all for S-Roll modifiers coming back since those PAs I mentioned with S-Roll would still do less DPS than current Satellite Aim without it (though Bullet Squall Zero might become a monster) and moves like Heel Stab might be usable again, though I suppose part of its usability came from Fury which works on Striking modifiers. There are several other weapons that just don't use a lot of their PAs too though (e.g. WL, Bullet Bow, Fighter weapons), so I guess that is not much of an argument.

I do hope the Gunner buffs help with the problems it actually has instead of making some unrelated change.This is why I want it to be 20-25%. Enough that it's worth using the PAs that were good with it again, or when you're far away, but also low enough that things like point blank sat aim, or reverse tap into shift period still have a place.

I'm still of the belief that the skill is meant to be used when you s-roll as apposed to s-rolling to use the skill... if that makes sense.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 12, 2015, 06:34 PM
He either said 'buying ideal karen is pointless', or 'bossing with a katana is pointless', or both actually.

I only single him out because he's the only one on these forums to say that on at least 3 different occasions when the discussion involves ideal weapons/bossing with katana, and his POV boiled down to 'why do that when bow is better?' in those posts.

Yeah, I just went through 250 of Z-0's posts and saw nothing like that. The closest thing to it was here (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3270046#post3270046) (thread closed)


Well when it comes to Ideal Katana, there's no reason to get one right now as Bow is better for bossing (so you should get Ideal Bow), but when Alyssa got the Ideal Katana, the Shii weapons weren't out so there was nothing better that was guaranteed for BrHu. Think the Evil Katana was out, but I think it's weaker than Ideal on BrHu.

In other words, Shii's Katana is not a worthwhile upgrade from Ideal. People who bitch about slight gear differences like this are generally not worth knowing.

In this context, he's actually defending someone's choice in picking an Ideal katana for mobbing, so lol.

Nyansan
Aug 12, 2015, 07:13 PM
From what I've noticed from playing Gu (s-roll days, nerf, then slight QOL buff on Bullet Squall), the class suffers from a skill set with conflicting conditions.

Perfect keeper (and by extension High Time) requires you NOT to get hit to get that damage multipliers, while ZRA requires you to get up close and personal with enemies for that increased damage. In short, to get the best of both, Gu need to melee range targets while avoiding getting hit AT ALL(since High Time resets upon getting hit by as much as a lightning strike from weather effects). Sure, we could just attribute getting the best of both to mechanical skill and studying enemy patterns (i.e git gud, lrn2dodge) but realistically speaking this is quite a feat especially on XH and Ultimate what with mobs having those flying projectiles coming from the infection core as well as High Time's absurd conditional bonus.

IMO, an easy buff to Gu could mean reworking Aerial Advance from "increased damage to airborne enemies" to "Increased damage while Airborne". Then relax Showtime related skills' (High Time and One more time) condition to be either the same as Perfect Keeper's condition of 75% hp before losing their effects, or change it into another condition like if Showtime expires with a full HP it reactivates again.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 07:24 PM
One idea I had was to just take high time and make it a seperate passive. It always seemed odd to me that it had both a build up, a condition that causes it to be reset, AND it was tied to a cooldown. I feel like removing any one of those facets would be good enough.

I don't think the whole needing to be in melee range but not get hit is too big of an issue. Toughness time has enough up time that you probably won't be losing your gear and 75% health is pretty generous (though I have GMs so scratch damage doesn't build up)

100% agree about aerial advance. It doesn't do anything on so many enemies you would actually want the extra damage for. >_>

Oleptro
Aug 12, 2015, 07:35 PM
Make Chain Trigger a passive skill that applies on hit.

[Ayumi]
Aug 12, 2015, 07:45 PM
Make Chain Trigger a passive skill that applies on hit.

PSP2 PSP2i? Yes please.

Cortte
Aug 12, 2015, 07:46 PM
There's really issues with GU? I mean I get that their PAs are pretty situational, but I get by really well with shift period for AOE, and crafted bullet squall for bosses. I mean I can solo the Kuron boss in like 3 mins without even being touched as GU/HU.

But hey, if the class gets buffed anyway I won't complain.

[Ayumi]
Aug 12, 2015, 07:48 PM
There's really issues with GU? I mean I get that their PAs are pretty situational, but I get by really well with shift period for AOE, and crafted bullet squall for bosses. I mean I can solo the Kuron boss in like 3 mins without even being touched as GU/HU.

But hey, if the class gets buffed anyway I won't complain.

Much weaker than it used to be still.
I'll take the buff as I like maining Gunner more than my other classes.
Force is a close 2nd.

Xaelouse
Aug 12, 2015, 07:49 PM
3 minutes as a class with chain is really bad actually

Cortte
Aug 12, 2015, 07:50 PM
3 minutes as a class with chain is really bad actually

That's without chain as manually aiming at her face is annoying. I do roughly 150k damage per BS on her face.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 07:51 PM
It takes me 3 minutes with katana braver. That boss has really awkward hitboxes.

Selphea
Aug 12, 2015, 08:00 PM
She's hard to chain and i have to swap out Zondeel on my palette if i want to Chain her so i gave up. But as Gu/Bo without Chain I can do it before One More Time wears off.

Superia
Aug 12, 2015, 08:20 PM
She's hard to chain and i have to swap out Zondeel on my palette if i want to Chain her so i gave up. But as Gu/Bo without Chain I can do it before One More Time wears off.

I don't think she's difficult to chain exactly, but you have to get it pretty early in the fight. She has some pretty good tools for totally botching chains (like her aoe stun staff drop and her quick backpedaling move), but she usually won't use them immediately.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 08:38 PM
She was a ton easier when you could stun her after the instadeath spell, since it also made her back a large weakpoint.

daviloled
Aug 12, 2015, 08:59 PM
I use GuRa and take only 1min10s to take down her (with no units), just aiming her head.

watch?v=EBvBt9-lXgw

Hope SEGA will redesign PA Knock Up Effect cuz i really like to use elder in long range and SA in close range to clear trash mobs, but mobs are all knocked up in the air and my teammates are mad at me :<

milranduil
Aug 12, 2015, 09:23 PM
It takes me 3 minutes with katana braver. That boss has really awkward hitboxes.

wut you can solo her before KC is up again. You're doing something wrong.

Rakurai
Aug 12, 2015, 09:23 PM
Making Aerial Advance apply while you're in the air instead of the target would make more sense, especially because the skill wouldn't be useless on bosses after that.

Maenara
Aug 12, 2015, 09:38 PM
Making Aerial Advance apply while you're in the air instead of the target would make more sense, especially because the skill wouldn't be useless on bosses after that.

Actually, Aerial Advance is coded to always proc on flying enemies, including bosses. Includes Loser, Elder, Anga, Soma, Biol, and others.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 09:41 PM
Making Aerial Advance apply while you're in the air instead of the target would make more sense, especially because the skill wouldn't be useless on bosses after that.

Speaking of which, why haven't we had any real flying bosses? All we have are minibosses like Vardha Soma, Falz Arms, and Apos. And by flying, I mean like throughout the entire fight (with an obvious gimmick to bring it into melee range)

I mean I guess we have bal rodos but idk
o and biol meduna floats but that doesn't count lol

final_attack
Aug 12, 2015, 10:31 PM
Speaking of which, why haven't we had any real flying bosses? All we have are minibosses like Vardha Soma, Falz Arms, and Apos. And by flying, I mean like throughout the entire fight (with an obvious gimmick to bring it into melee range)

I mean I guess we have bal rodos but idk
o and biol meduna floats but that doesn't count lol

Well, JP Wiki only listed Rodos, Falz Arm, and 1 Quarry's mech (ball-like mech) that doesn't count as flying .......

But still, does Aerial Advance ..... affect stunned bosses? Like after 2x break Ragne's Leg ..... flipped Zesh .... I do remember reading that juggled mobs proc AerialAdvance (forgot where) ....

Oh, if Falz Loser and Elder count as flying, I guess my spare tree can be used for that ..... o-o

Stickboy
Aug 12, 2015, 11:15 PM
it should work when enemies aren't touching the ground(?)

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 11:16 PM
Oh, I meant in general. We need some cool flying bosses that aren't within melee range for over 90% of the fight.

Kondibon
Aug 12, 2015, 11:24 PM
Oh, I meant in general. We need some cool flying bosses that aren't within melee range for over 90% of the fight.That sounds really boring. :/

Vatallus
Aug 12, 2015, 11:28 PM
The person running balances in EP3 just hates gunner. That is all.

It is also probably a bitch to balance since its PA selection isn't really that great. Buffing S-Roll will just bring us back to the ER/IF days. Some of us actually want to use other PAs at times and not feel like we mean nothing.

Honestly I can't think of any way to buff Gunner that doesn't require more PA rebalanced. Like turn S-Roll UP into Just Attack boost. Make it 25%-50%. and then we would have to turn around and nerf some PAs like Sat Aim and possibly ER/IF. Also rebuff MT please.

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 11:34 PM
That sounds really boring. :/

Because most of the current boss fights aren't? Literally every boss fight we currently have isn't very unique at all, apart from gimmicky attack patterns and breakable parts/weakpoints. Loser tried to be unique, but the whole fight is still just mindlessly attacking the broken clock while dodging easily avoidable attacks (after breaking the arms in XH, ofc).

TaigaUC
Aug 12, 2015, 11:53 PM
I also don't feel satisfaction from current bosses.
They need to be more interesting with bosses.

In general, multiplayer makes boss fights trivial and less meaningful.
I really wish they'd focus on a solo boss mode. I'd totally be into that.

It also doesn't help that they always focus incentive on kiling boss ASAP for max loot.
No time to enjoy the fight. Screw you, SEGA.

hoangsea
Aug 12, 2015, 11:55 PM
Honestly they should just bring S-Roll JA back up to 200% and bring guld milla's potential back to tank status. Oh, and make shunka super OP again

RIP episode 2 meta

you must be a dump

s-roll JA back to 200% -> force people have to roll before doing PAs which is bull shit
GM pot back -> what's the fk of an dealer class being a tank ? showtime which made gu force to be no damage is meaningless ?

my opinion about buff that is

GU
- more increased damage when shooting at close range (Gu play style is melee shooter so is have to be high risk, high reward the damage out put at the time is too low for being close range combat)
- more buff at showtime (most of show time buff from skills fails upon get hit, so if you can do no damage everytime show time is up it must have an higher reward)
- fix some stupid PA that blow mobs aways, MPA problem
- buff S-atk convert PAs that will make GU/HU back such as reverse tab, aerial shot, heel stab

BR
- about bow i have no idea since i quit using bow because it's too boring :-?

* katana
- find a method that make BR 's aerial attack stronger (BR fail at doing aerial attack, most of PA are not support or too weak to use) it maybe an new PA or buff PAs.
- fix kazan (even it have customize but still useless)
- fix the animation (Br PA 's animation and JA is very bad when you try different common PA (gekka, endo, kanran) at the same time -> hard to do tech art JA when use Fi/Br)

Qualia
Aug 12, 2015, 11:57 PM
you must be a dump

got me lol

Kondibon
Aug 13, 2015, 12:06 AM
I wasn't trying to imply current bosses aren't boring, just that a boss you literally can't attack for most of the fight isn't very interesting. The only reason people aren't complaining a lot about that now is because most bosses that do it die in one cycle anyway. As someone who's fought Bal and Gwana under leveled and undergeared, it's not engaging at all to sit around waiting for the boss to be attackable at all.



In general, multiplayer makes boss fights trivial and less meaningful.
I really wish they'd focus on a solo boss mode. I'd totally be into that.gameneedsbetterenemyscalingandlessbossstuns.



It also doesn't help that they always focus incentive on kiling boss ASAP for max loot.
No time to enjoy the fight. Screw you, SEGA.This is actually kind of inevitable in any game where you replay content. If you've beaten a boss once the only thing to get from continuing to beat the boss is improving your skill, improving your style, or improving your speed.
PSO2 has a pretty low skill cap, it doesn't accommodate stylish play very well, so the only thing left is speed. Not to mention skill and style don't mean anything for gameplay like they do in say DMC...

So yeah, you're right actually... it is on sega for making the only reason to re fight bosses loot drops.

TaigaUC
Aug 13, 2015, 12:26 AM
Yeah, Bal Lodos is boring as hell. Gwanada is basically "gotta kill him quick before he hides for 10 minutes".

I was talking to a JP friend about how awesome De Rol Le was.
The music, the environment, the patterns, the design. Everything about De Rol Le is superior to Bal Lodos.
Or at least, that's how I remember it. It's been a while.
I like to put De Rol Le's music on when I fight Bal Lodos, but... it's just not the same!

elryan
Aug 13, 2015, 12:28 AM
Aside from playing Braver extensively, I also main Gunner. Here's my comprehensive take on buffing Gunner:

Currently there are issues with Gunner:
1. Chain Trigger as main DPS / burst vs Boss is very strong but unreliable.
2. Poor mobility on the ground, which in turn harms mobbing capability.
3. PP regeneration is still not enough, amazingly.
4. Showtime Star provides good damage sustenance (prevents that 1.3x TMG Gear damage boost dropping) but in turn also creates another problem: its 1.2x damage boost dropped if you get hit by stray attacks.
5. Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim strong but throws enemies everywhere, preventing you to actually use them for mobbing. :|

While PSO2 developers improved Gunner playstyle DRAMATICALLY by nerfing SRoll-JA and buffing everything else, (gameplay was monotonous, now MUCH more exciting) those issues mentioned above has not been fixed.

Chain Trigger itself is a minigame: it requires you to focus fire on a specific coordinate on the enemy part. Upon success, you're rewarded with huge damage burst and speeds up the cooldown cycle for the next chain session. This begs a question: What if you fail?

When you failed Chain Trigger, not only you missed a potential for dealing damage, but you also need to wait for quite a while before you can use your next Chain Trigger. Not fun.

Chain Trigger can be fixed NOT by actually letting you to hit anywhere on the enemy it applied and stacks (doing so will remove the 'fun' of Chain Trigger :D), but can be fixed by removing the cooldown altogether. If you fail, you can reattempt. If you success, you get damage burst. Sounds OP? Tell that to those boss OHKO-ing RA / JB BO / FO.

As for the second issue, I love how bow works. It actually has side step. Why can't we have that on Gunner?

Third issue can be fixed by increasing TMG Mastery PP recovery. We need Deband PP Restorate level of PP recovery. While at that, please buff that critical damage; 5% doesn't cut it.

Fourth issue can be fixed by just scrapping Showtime altogether. The core concept of the skill is flawed and is just a big bad band-aid. Make TMG gear doesn't drop when you get hit by damage dammit. What about that 1.2x High Time damage boost? Make Aerial Advance works when you're airborne instead of hitting airborne enemy.

And finally, fix Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim to stagger the enemy instead of launching them. Problem solved.

Kondibon
Aug 13, 2015, 12:34 AM
I feel like they should just nerf chain trigger, but make it a passive instead of having a cool down at all. The levels of the skill could then increase how high you can chain (or it could just be one point and let you chain to 100 anyway 3:< ).

I'm not in the mood to touch the rest of that6 stuff.

TaigaUC
Aug 13, 2015, 12:42 AM
The most game breaking skills are probably Chain Trigger and Weak Bullet.
Especially Weak Bullet. You know a skill is f'd up when people leave if nobody has it.

The Walrus
Aug 13, 2015, 12:46 AM
People probably wouldn't leave if they stopped designing MPA bosses around having access to it

elryan
Aug 13, 2015, 12:59 AM
The most game breaking skills are probably Chain Trigger and Weak Bullet.
Especially Weak Bullet. You know a skill is f'd up when people leave if nobody has it.

And here's my take on Weak Bullet.

Weak Bullet is overpowered. It was nerfed from 300% damage boost to 200% damage boost but it's still too strong.

Weak Bullet is not overpowered because it boosts your damage. It is overpowered because it boosts your damage AND 11 other people, to the point where people leave MPAs if lacking Weak Bullet.

Also it doesn't help when the game is actually balanced around Weak Bullet. Meaning if you don't have Weak Bullet in EQs, you are doomed.

There are the things that has to be done to fix Weak Bullet.
1. Buff all classes damage by 200%.
2. Make Weak Bullet only applies to your own attacks.
3. Tone down the damage boost from 200% to 50%.
4. Make Weak Bullet load-able by Gunslash. Make Bullet Keep includes Gunslash, TMG and Bullet Bow.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 13, 2015, 01:06 AM
People probably wouldn't leave if they stopped designing MPA bosses around having access to it

Preachin' to the choir.


And here's my take on Weak Bullet.

Weak Bullet is overpowered. It was nerfed from 300% damage boost to 200% damage boost but it's still too strong.

255%



There are the things that has to be done to fix Weak Bullet.
1. Buff all classes damage by 200%.
2. Make Weak Bullet only applies to your own attacks.
3. Tone down the damage boost from 200% to 50%.
4. Make Weak Bullet load-able by Gunslash. Make Bullet Keep includes Gunslash, TMG and Bullet Bow.

I wouldn't mind if WB still made a weak point for all attacks.

A slightly more simple (but not delicate in the least) solution would be to:

-Make it a standard 2x that doesn't stack with a pre-existing weak point (the higher multiplier would be in effect. The lower is ignored entirely so WB wouldn't potentially nerf player damage, like striking attacks vs vibras' weak points).

-Bring down XH/ult boss HP that were balanced around WB's former potential of creating a 500%+ damage weak point multiplier.

WB would still have the utility of creating another weak point, while not single-handedly creating an arms race in damage vs boss hp.

Kondibon
Aug 13, 2015, 02:22 AM
-Make it a standard 2x that doesn't stack with a pre-existing weak point (the higher multiplier would be in effect. The lower is ignored entirely so WB wouldn't potentially nerf player damage, like striking attacks vs vibras' weak points).
I say keep 255% or maybe lower it to 220-230%. It would be nice if it still had a net gain on most 2x weakpoints and I don't think a 20-50% increase would be anywhere near as bad as 255% in the grand scheme of things.

cheapgunner
Aug 13, 2015, 03:33 AM
Just make bosses in the future either immune to weak bullet or make the modifier of wrak bullet on said boss much lower so its not such an imbalanced skill. Next falz fight make it so weak bullet is unable to stick/apply to said boss so MPA's arent so reliant on it. Then rebalance the boss's hitpoints to reflect the changes mentioned

Kondibon
Aug 13, 2015, 03:39 AM
Just make bosses in the future either immune to weak bulletThat's an awful solution. It's as bad as bosses being immune to normal status effects. I:

cheapgunner
Aug 13, 2015, 03:53 AM
That's an awful solution. It's as bad as bosses being immune to normal status effects. I:

Well, if they keep adding content as they ben doing with new difficulties and such, soon we will be facing profound darkness and possibly stronger falz bosses with 30-50+ mil HP. I mean, at some point, fights will literally be like 3-4 rangers + 8 others for dps and 15-20 minute slug fests whittling down their hp bar while dodging 2hkos every 10 seconds... :/

Hysteria1987
Aug 13, 2015, 03:54 AM
I also don't feel satisfaction from current bosses.
They need to be more interesting with bosses.

In general, multiplayer makes boss fights trivial and less meaningful.
I really wish they'd focus on a solo boss mode. I'd totally be into that.

It also doesn't help that they always focus incentive on kiling boss ASAP for max loot.
No time to enjoy the fight. Screw you, SEGA.

Basically, this.

I thought Magatsu was interesting at first because hey, it survives and practically ignores you- it's different! But then I learned his name was actually Lagatsu and he became a lot less fun to play (in fact I usually skip Magatsu now).

I don't really get any satisfaction from mobbing either, besides perhaps the general job-well-done stuff. Even solo, it's not like you're likely to get hit much, purely because you've basically got to be swamped or doing nothing in order for most enemies to even attempt an attack. They just sort of... skit around, waiting for death.

Guys, I... don't think I actually like this game :-o

Vatallus
Aug 13, 2015, 03:55 AM
I miss when XH Magatsu had 73m HP.

Kondibon
Aug 13, 2015, 03:55 AM
Well, if they keep adding content as they ben doing with new difficulties and such, soon we will be facing profound darkness and possibly stronger falz bosses with 30-50+ mil HP. I mean, at some point, fights will literally be like 3-4 rangers + 8 others for dps and 15-20 minute slug fests whittling down their hp bar while dodging 2hkos every 10 seconds... :/People already gave more reasonable solutions though. 3:

TaigaUC
Aug 13, 2015, 04:16 AM
Lagatsu is crazy laggy nowadays.
I got invited to a JP organized run the other day, and the lag was so bad everyone just kept falling through Lagatsu constantly.
AFAIK it was the organizer's first attempt at organizing, and they felt like it was their fault. Thanks, SEGA.

But that's not all! The other day, when I invited a JP friend to my organized Lagatsu, they couldn't move at all for 10 minutes.
It was my friend's first time in an organized run, and they felt it was their fault as well.
I even tried having another JP friend "host" the party. Didn't work. Thanks, SEGA.

Got one more JP friend who often comments on how unplayable the lag is. In Japan.
I really have to wonder what's causing the awful lag.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 13, 2015, 04:43 AM
Shit structure, server load, etc.

Ce'Nedra
Aug 13, 2015, 04:54 AM
I feel the lag got worse when they added the lobby soccer to the lobbies. Even logging in in non JP times the game takes serval seconds to load everything in the lobby now where normally everything is nearly instantly loaded for me.

I mean if chairs caused lag in the past, who thought it was a good idea to add something interactive like this? Might also be the summer lobby waterslides...

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 05:14 AM
Imo, Gu is not weak but sub classing and HeadShot(HS) is making it really difficult to organize well. And the class is a little too difficult for an average ARKs.

Gu/Ra can be a beast, but heavily relies on HS and hitting weak points, making it an "advanced" class. Sometimes you have to aim while "flying" to put CT and HS together. I don't expect everybody to do that acrobat kind of thing (I myself rarely do that :P). And dealing with enemies which don't have a head is something really annoying. (I hate those creatures from the facility area.)

When it comes to Gu/Hu, the striking PAs like Heal Stab, Dead Approach, Reverse Tap become too strong if you put the criteria on Gu/Ra. But the HS system puts difficulty on Gu/Hu (in ranged attack multiplier terms). Maybe it needs a pure striking PA which functions like Satellite Aim. (Or give up balancing Gu/Ra and Gu/Hu from damage dealing terms, making Gu/Hu unique in other ways.)

If you can't HS, Gu becomes a really weak class. Though, I think SEGA can't nerf HS and balance the system because doing so affects the whole game. It is like making a whole new game just for Gu.

I hope that SEGA will make the class more user friendly. Utilizing all the skills and features makes the class strong but the player's skill required to do so is a little too demanding, I think. Grim Barrage and Bullet Squall Zero was nice. I'm looking forward to seeing what SEGA will come up with.

ShinMaruku
Aug 13, 2015, 06:50 AM
I trust this team with buffing these classes like I trust the Blizzard pvp team in wow.
Actually I think Blizzard is worse at pvp than Sega is... :E

Arada
Aug 13, 2015, 07:30 AM
The main fix to GU, for me, would be to allow the class to S-Roll forward. It will open many more gameplay options.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 08:10 AM
I can't tell if you're serious or not.


That said, I do think S-roll JA should be 20 or 25% instead of just 10%. >_> Like, yeah it was OP before, but now it's useless. It should be like tech arts JA. Something you take advantage of when it's convenient but not something that's the majority of your damage.

I've been thinking, but if Sroll roll were brought back to the 1.7-2x range, it'd fit in almost perfectly (let's pretend elder rebellion and infinite shooter get nerfed to there episode 2 power).

In other words, bring back that ep 2 gunner, but keep the other ep3 buffs, and weaken some PAs like that one that can be crafted now, and make some PAs good with sroll, and others like sataim better without sroll.

Compared to when sataim was completely useless.


Aside from playing Braver extensively, I also main Gunner. Here's my comprehensive take on buffing Gunner:

Currently there are issues with Gunner:
1. Chain Trigger as main DPS / burst vs Boss is very strong but unreliable.
2. Poor mobility on the ground, which in turn harms mobbing capability.
3. PP regeneration is still not enough, amazingly.
4. Showtime Star provides good damage sustenance (prevents that 1.3x TMG Gear damage boost dropping) but in turn also creates another problem: its 1.2x damage boost dropped if you get hit by stray attacks.
5. Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim strong but throws enemies everywhere, preventing you to actually use them for mobbing. :|

While PSO2 developers improved Gunner playstyle DRAMATICALLY by nerfing SRoll-JA and buffing everything else, (gameplay was monotonous, now MUCH more exciting) those issues mentioned above has not been fixed.

Chain Trigger itself is a minigame: it requires you to focus fire on a specific coordinate on the enemy part. Upon success, you're rewarded with huge damage burst and speeds up the cooldown cycle for the next chain session. This begs a question: What if you fail?

When you failed Chain Trigger, not only you missed a potential for dealing damage, but you also need to wait for quite a while before you can use your next Chain Trigger. Not fun.

Chain Trigger can be fixed NOT by actually letting you to hit anywhere on the enemy it applied and stacks (doing so will remove the 'fun' of Chain Trigger ), but can be fixed by removing the cooldown altogether. If you fail, you can reattempt. If you success, you get damage burst. Sounds OP? Tell that to those boss OHKO-ing RA / JB BO / FO.

As for the second issue, I love how bow works. It actually has side step. Why can't we have that on Gunner?

Third issue can be fixed by increasing TMG Mastery PP recovery. We need Deband PP Restorate level of PP recovery. While at that, please buff that critical damage; 5% doesn't cut it.

Fourth issue can be fixed by just scrapping Showtime altogether. The core concept of the skill is flawed and is just a big bad band-aid. Make TMG gear doesn't drop when you get hit by damage dammit. What about that 1.2x High Time damage boost? Make Aerial Advance works when you're airborne instead of hitting airborne enemy.

And finally, fix Elder Rebellion and Satellite Aim to stagger the enemy instead of launching them. Problem solved.

I play Gunner too.

1. Yep, it also makes gunner almost only good for bossing.
2. I've never had problem mobbing, use shift period and heel stab. Dunno why you would consider single target attacks like elder reb for mobbing, though satellite aim is okay in some situations, but its better to have better AoE PAs be more reliable for mobbing.
3. I've never had problems with it.
4. Yes, without showtime, gear is almost impossible to fill in the first place, and it drains fast too.
5. Both of those aren't even main PAs for mobbing imo, well SatAim is okay.

Nerfing sroll JA was terrible. Before the nerf it was pretty diverse, NOW it's monotonous... there's no point in doing "air battles", all you do most of the time is spam SatAim or shift period... and that's literally it.

Beforehand, there were good reasons for me to use all of infinity fire, elder reb, that gap closer thing, heel stab, messiah time, that one people always use on zeshrayda's belly that can be crafted now, and shift period. The only one I remember being useless that is stlil useless is that crash bandicoot spinning PA.

Now there's only SatAim for most things, shift period for groups of things, and sometimes elder rebellion for emergency guld milla healing. Everything else is just useless now, and you're stuck on the floor all the time because spamming PAs over and over is now the thing to do, there's no reason to learn Sroll playstyle.

If PAs didn't knock up enemies, it'd make aerial advance pointless tho. But if aerial advance were actually when you're in the air, that'd be cool. Preferably, it'd be best if you were in the air, above normal jump height. Then some people would probably do some jetboot weaponswitches to be fancy, or use the PAs that put you up in the air.


I +20'd my Gal TMGs thinking it'd be something to make Gu good again because 13* are OP but boy was I underwhelmed. Though I don't have a max Gu anymore eh.

Z-0
Aug 13, 2015, 08:18 AM
Buffing S-Roll JA again wouldn't matter because everything else got buffed far too much that 200% S-Roll wouldn't make Gunner far ahead of everything, most likely.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 08:31 AM
well, if they buffed gunner such that xh enemies to gunner today are like ep.2 gunner was to sh enemies, it'd be okayish... maybe? lol

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 08:58 AM
Nerfing sroll JA was terrible. Before the nerf it was pretty diverse, NOW it's monotonous... there's no point in doing "air battles", all you do most of the time is spam SatAim or shift period... and that's literally it.


You don't jump up and HS when you face ringahda, knightgear, meduna and others?

If you are talking about missing Messiah Time and Infinite Fire, I agree, but I can't agree that today's Gu PAs are monotonous. Actually you have to use most of the PAs to be a good Gu.

P.S.
If you are concerned with blasting enemies away by using Elder Rebellion, shoot 6 times, and then cancel it by S-roll. Same for Satellite Aim. Fire the first shot and cancel it (You can even draw back the enemy by using Reverse Tap). Though, for mobbing purpose, I recommend Reverse Tap + Shift Period.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 09:11 AM
Why would you jump for heelstab? It smashes you to the ground...

Why would I cancel elder rebellion before it does it stronger hits?

Cancel a SatAim hit, and especially with Sroll which will just put me out of range of what I was attacking??

(I wasn't concerned with the knockback, because that never has really put anything out of range or made it harder for me to hit things... you can even spam SA on mobs and continue to hit them while they're in midair).

I guess I still use the gap closer, but that makes 3 PAs. If Reverse Tap got some kind of magic tornado suction then I guess it's good now, but I'm going to have to see that myself.

edit: I guess it does have suction, and it does seem to be more powerful now, but still kinda underwhelming like before.

I also use heel stab in XQ where I have to kill enemies from the front. I specifically change my palette for that, though.

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 09:29 AM
Why would you jump for heelstab? It smashes you to the ground...

Why would I cancel elder rebellion before it does it stronger hits?

Cancel a SatAim hit, and especially with Sroll which will just put me out of range of what I was attacking??

(I wasn't concerned with the knockback, because that never has really put anything out of range or made it harder for me to hit things... you can even spam SA on mobs and continue to hit them while they're in midair).

I guess I still use the gap closer, but that makes 3 PAs. If Reverse Tap got some kind of magic tornado suction then I guess it's good now, but I'm going to have to see that myself.

I also use heel stab in XQ where I have to kill enemies from the front.

>Why would you jump for heelstab? It smashes you to the ground...
Use Aerial shooting to go up. Heelstab is nice for bayari but I won't use it for knightgear.


>Why would I cancel elder rebellion before it does it stronger hits?
Because cooperating with the other members of your room is often better. Of course, shoot the last 3 shots if you can kill the enemy, or nobody is going for it.


>Cancel a SatAim hit, and especially with Sroll which will just put me out of range of what I was attacking??
The same with above. If you don't have to, just land 2 hits. Note that some enemies are better dealt with one hit (i.e. solza brahda (landing 2 hits sky rockets it and you can't hit it hard with close range PAs)).


>I guess I still use the gap closer, but that makes 3 PAs. If Reverse Tap got some kind of magic tornado suction then I guess it's good now, but I'm going to have to see that myself.
Shift Period doesn't hit well if the mobs are even a little away. Of course, you can spam Shift Period directly if they are close enough. It is also for gathering the mobs in one place for other guys.


>I also use heel stab in XQ where I have to kill enemies from the front.
It's nice. Even S-roll JA bonus was nurfed, heel stab is still something.

yoshiblue
Aug 13, 2015, 09:37 AM
Would be interesting if they tried to buff gunner by giving it more evasion tank traits.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 09:45 AM
>Why would you jump for heelstab? It smashes you to the ground...
Use Aerial shooting to go up. Heelstab is nice for bayari but I won't use it for knightgear.


>Why would I cancel elder rebellion before it does it stronger hits?
Because cooperating with the other members of your room is often better. Of course, shoot the last 3 shots if you can kill the enemy, or nobody is going for it.


>Cancel a SatAim hit, and especially with Sroll which will just put me out of range of what I was attacking??
The same with above. If you don't have to, just land 2 hits. Note that some enemies are better dealt with one hit (i.e. solza brahda (landing 2 hits sky rockets it and you can't hit it hard with close range PAs)).


>I guess I still use the gap closer, but that makes 3 PAs. If Reverse Tap got some kind of magic tornado suction then I guess it's good now, but I'm going to have to see that myself.
Shift Period doesn't hit well if the mobs are even a little away. Of course, you can spam Shift Period directly if they are close enough. It is also for gathering the mobs in one place for other guys.


>I also use heel stab in XQ where I have to kill enemies from the front.
It's nice. Even S-roll JA bonus was nurfed, heel stab is still something.


Err yeah I use aerial shooting to gain height. But for some reason you asked me why I don't jump before I use heelstab, assuming that's what HS is.

I play either solo or in 12/12 MPAs most of the time, where 2-3 enemies being knocked back upwards doesn't change anything. Full MPAs destroy everything anyway, and solo is solo. Actually, even in 4/4.

I also play Br, Hu, Fo, Te (melee), Ra ... people bouncing enemies once in a while has never really caused me any hassle. Now wired lance PAs and similar are another thing...

The only problem is on enemies that are already flying and are big enough to actually tank, but then melee classes can hardly deal with those unless they have a stun / tripping PA that can reach them in the first place.

And if I'm playing with other people, most of the time there's already a RA with gravity bomb, or a force with zondeel (which makes reverse tap's super low range pull kind of negligible, like gravity arrow except even more limited).

final_attack
Aug 13, 2015, 09:49 AM
Would be interesting if they tried to buff gunner by giving it more evasion tank traits.

Actually, I'd like to see that too ..... S-Roll-Cancel or something that lets you do another S-Roll in the middle of one at the cost of PP :/ Some attacks just .... too fast to evade with consecutive S-Roll (or evading attacks from another target) :/

Cause yeah .... +20% damage multiplier from HighTime also come with +220% aggro (at least, if you get OneMoreTime)

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 09:54 AM
Oh, my bad. I meant Head Shot. Took your word " there's no point in doing "air battles"" badly. Sorry. So you are not stuck on the floor, am I right? :3

If you are not much concerned with blasting mobs away, it's fine I think. Some players get mad of pushing mobs away and I thought people are complaining about those PAs.

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 10:02 AM
Imo, Gu is not weak but sub classing and HeadShot(HS) is making it really difficult to organize well. And the class is a little too difficult for an average ARKs.

Gu/Ra can be a beast, but heavily relies on HS and hitting weak points, making it an "advanced" class. Sometimes you have to aim while "flying" to put CT and HS together. I don't expect everybody to do that acrobat kind of thing (I myself rarely do that :P). And dealing with enemies which don't have a head is something really annoying. (I hate those creatures from the facility area.)

When it comes to Gu/Hu, the striking PAs like Heal Stab, Dead Approach, Reverse Tap become too strong if you put the criteria on Gu/Ra. But the HS system puts difficulty on Gu/Hu (in ranged attack multiplier terms). Maybe it needs a pure striking PA which functions like Satellite Aim. (Or give up balancing Gu/Ra and Gu/Hu from damage dealing terms, making Gu/Hu unique in other ways.)

If you can't HS, Gu becomes a really weak class. Though, I think SEGA can't nerf HS and balance the system because doing so affects the whole game. It is like making a whole new game just for Gu.

I hope that SEGA will make the class more user friendly. Utilizing all the skills and features makes the class strong but the player's skill required to do so is a little too demanding, I think. Grim Barrage and Bullet Squall Zero was nice. I'm looking forward to seeing what SEGA will come up with.

NOOOOOOOO! If SEGA touches Gunner's skill level I'll friggin go berserk like Trevor in GTA4. Every MMOs have classes that require more skills to be good with. They usually warn the players by showing on the classes a difficulty,

I also love gunner as an acrobat because thats what a gunner is. Heck, I even succesfully s-roll JA sat aim mid-air now just from how much I played the class.

Skill based games are good. Too casual friendly and you get the CODs we have now. PS: I LOVE SOULS GAMES TO DEATH

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 10:07 AM
It seems the players are quite diverse! How do you think about S-rolling to your front without tilting your camera 90 degrees? Is it a ok or not?

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 10:13 AM
you dont need to tilt the camera. wasd alone is enough.you want to see where you're going lol
I always s-roll to the front like that. I also do timed shoots to keep height in mid-air

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 10:17 AM
I know, but I somehow feel it easier to do so. lol

Maybe I should learn to move with wasd alone.

The Walrus
Aug 13, 2015, 10:25 AM
Gunner's skill level

what skill level, requiring stupid amounts of effort like headshotting on a close/mid-range class (which makes no sense to do really) that's meant to move around a lot and shit just to do mediocre damage?

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 10:35 AM
what skill level, requiring stupid amounts of effort like headshotting on a close/mid-range class (which makes no sense to do really) that's meant to move around a lot and shit just to do mediocre damage?

Why ask something you already know the answer? Skill and damage are too different entities here. Yes I agree the amount of effort is not rewarding enough atm

And mediocre damage? that's a bit subjective. Its not enough? right.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 10:39 AM
NOOOOOOOO! If SEGA touches Gunner's skill level I'll friggin go berserk like Trevor in GTA4. Every MMOs have classes that require more skills to be good with. They usually warn the players by showing on the classes a difficulty,

I also love gunner as an acrobat because thats what a gunner is. Heck, I even succesfully s-roll JA sat aim mid-air now just from how much I played the class.

Skill based games are good. Too casual friendly and you get the CODs we have now. PS: I LOVE SOULS GAMES TO DEATH

The problem with PSO2 is that you are performing all of this extra effort (skill) to do worse than easier classes. Whereas you could use your skill on an 'easier' class and be on a tier of your own.

There's no point in spending your skill into being weaker, if you want to do that, just unequip your units and use ungrinded weapons without spending skill points.


In say, a game like TF2, you could play scout (which I would argue requires skill to do well), and really destroy some people, or not be great at it and barely help your team at all. Or you could play soldier which imo is a much easier class to do things as - but it isn't as strong as a pro scout imo.





Also yeah, I thought a forward Sroll move would be interesting too, I mean, you can already just do a backwards one in free-look...

That was actually on a wishlist of mechanics I made:

Gu Stylish Roll forward roll
Gu TMG with 1.7x stylish roll latent OR reverting the skill tree.
Fo Talis walking throw
Endless PP Revival / Te Casting PP Revival

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 10:44 AM
The problem with PSO2 is that you are performing all of this extra effort (skill) to do worse than easier classes. Whereas you could use your skill on an 'easier' class and be on a tier of your own.

There's no point in spending your skill into being weaker, if you want to do that, just unequip your units and use ungrinded weapons without spending skill points.

Once again, totally true but the only thing we can do atm is just do our best to maximize what gunners can do. I don't play gunner because its rewarding (even though we would all prefer if it were). I play gunner because I like it. (since its more skill based/requires more effort, acrobatics and all)

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 10:46 AM
Well isn't decent damage enough? I am playing PSO2 for the game experience. I want to play the class I want to. I agree outclassing other players are something, but it's just a value among other things, isn't it?

The Walrus
Aug 13, 2015, 10:52 AM
Why ask something you already know the answer? Skill and damage are too different entities here. Yes I agree the amount of effort is not rewarding enough atm

And mediocre damage? that's a bit subjective. Its not enough? right.

It's definitely not enough. And at this point I suppose I exaggerated when I said stupid amounts of effort to headshot with GU. It'd be more accurate to word that as "unnecessary amounts of effort for a close range class".

Then again I think the forced headshot mechanic for ranged stuff is stupid in general so I'm probably a bit biased.

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 10:52 AM
Well isn't decent damage enough? I am playing PSO2 for the game experience. I want to play the class I want to. I agree outclassing other players are something, but it's just a value among other things, isn't it?

Shhh, don't say that kind of thing here. Some elitists might come and bad mouth you. For real though, it's okay to play only for fun but lets be honest here; This game is multiplayer and requires a fair share of cooperation on certain MPAs/EQs and by cooperation I mean people that arent just dead weights because they utterly lack DPS. But yeah, if it's average it's okay, you dont NEED to max out everything.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 11:03 AM
Well isn't decent damage enough? I am playing PSO2 for the game experience. I want to play the class I want to. I agree outclassing other players are something, but it's just a value among other things, isn't it?

I play PSO2 for game experience too, but that's a subjective thing.

I play all classes, and generally play the class I want to. But I also play solo a lot, and because I play all classes, I can see the difference in each class. It makes classes I want to play unfun when it takes 10x longer to do anything as that class. I used to love Gunner, but lets say SEGA were to make Gunner twice more tedious than it is now - would you still play it 'for fun'?

Since they destroyed my playstyle I've rarely played it. It takes me like 2 hours to solo TACOs on Remilia now because its so weak, compared to like 30 on Nue as FoTe or BrHu or TeBr ... etc.

On Remi playing SH it takes me a long time to kill enemies, goodness how it'll be when I start playing XH...

The only Qs that require real strategy or CoOP are TDs, Challenge, XQ, and maybe some other stuff I forgot I suppose. Random MPAs are just killing monsters.

For TD, it actually helps a lot to aggro grab, zondeel, or actually protect towers, and learn how to use AIS properly in TD3, etc. Il grant lock vibrace and watch his bombs. I rarely see people do these things, everyone wants to just try to kill monsters as fast as they can and ignore the non-damage tricks you can do to make everyone else kill everything faster.

For example shocking elder, not only stops his attacks, but also makes him vulnerable for a good amount of time to let everyone else DPS on him.

Other things like Magatsu, Elder, Loser, everyone can learn the single meta that's there for them easily. (though even those have their own niche strats to make things way faster).

dekopong
Aug 13, 2015, 11:18 AM
Maybe I'm playing Gu too long... Just Hearing the rumors what Nirenorochi can do, what volgraptor can do, not actually trying those battle styles. Maybe Gu needs much more than I thought.

For the S-roll play style thing, I feel sorry for that because I can't say today's Gu's style as an ideal play style and can't change the fact it destroyed your favorite. Though, imo, 200% for a flip was too much.

And yes, I won't play Gu if it becomes something you illustrate. Probably it's a matter of degree I think.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, I'm going to bed now. See you guys.(´・ω・`)ノシ

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 11:31 AM
Main weakness of Gunner really isn't its damage but its coverage. When running Gunner you're kind of forced to choose between augmenting its strengths - sub Ranger for WB and WHA bonuses to get amazing bossing, or covering its weaknesses - sub Bouncer for Zondeel to suck mobs in for free headshots and ZRA to cover ZRA's short activation range, and to go ham with Megiverse maintaining Perfect Keeper. That problem cannot be solved by anything in the skill tree.

Damage-wise, Gu is fine. Sat Aim's pow/sec seems quite consistent with other sustainable anti-boss attacks like Holding Current and Banish-Nemesis. It's behind Vinto and BHS but those need building up, not to mention they can't work with Ranger's huge multipliers, and it has nothing on Satellite Cannon and End Attract, but TBH that says more about those two PAs being ridiculous than anything else. The other TMG PAs are actually pretty good pow/sec for mobbing too, after ZRA headshot is factored in, which means Zondeel of course.

The only way to fix TMGs is to give it a fast, wide AoE with suction, and that can only come with PA crafting or new PAs. Tweaking the skill tree or PA power isn't going to help.

Would be nice if getting hit during High Time only sets the damage boost back by 5% rather than completely resetting it, and if One More Time was more lenient, like 3 hits instead of 1 hit.

That said, if they do make ZRA affect Striking... gogo Chain BHS/Chain Kamikaze/Chain TCPBF Dove. If they extend ZRA... that'd be nice but TMGs would still need some kind of fast and reasonably wide AoE to take advantage of that.

But Gu/Ra is the most agile class combo that can pack WB. Honestly if I can get away with it, I'd rather run Gu/Ra in a boss EQ like Elder/Loser/Maggy because Rifle, Launcher, Bullet Bow and Gunslash all handle like potatoes compared to TMG's defensive Shift anytime, anywhere. And yes I don't really run non-WBs in bossing EQs anymore. Seems like every time I don't run with WB, no one else does.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 11:47 AM
Maybe I'm playing Gu too long... Just Hearing the rumors what Nirenorochi can do, what volgraptor can do, not actually trying those battle styles. Maybe Gu needs much more than I thought.

For the S-roll play style thing, I feel sorry for that because I can't say today's Gu's style as an ideal play style and can't change the fact it destroyed your favorite. Though, imo, 200% for a flip was too much.

And yes, I won't play Gu if it becomes something you illustrate. Probably it's a matter of degree I think.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, I'm going to bed now. See you guys.(´・ω・`)ノシ

I liked how stylish roll kept me moving a lot, but it was also a bad match-up for some PAs. Now if those PAs were strong enough on their own without the roll in EP.2, Gu would've been perfectly balanced imo.

(aside from the fact that is was more op than any other class at that point in time)

back then shift period was strong enough for its final burst to kill a ton of mobs around you from a good distance away, even if you missed all the preliminary hits. It was a good trade off considering how long that takes.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 11:53 AM
Yea chances are there could be a crafted Shift Period to make it charged like Kazan so it'll have that effect on SH (and still annoyingly go for non-weak infection cores in UQ) but I highly doubt they'll buff its power straight up.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 11:55 AM
reverse tap NEEDS to be able to move (move even more than the current craft does).


Or be chargeable for bigger area.


as it stands now, it's more optimal for me to run up to or DeadApproach mobs then SatAim than use its suction as that guy mentioned.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 11:58 AM
Gu/Ra Grav Bomb + Add Bullet or Gu/Bo Zondeel + Bullet Squall. Stop torturing yourself with Hu sub :wacko:

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 12:02 PM
Well, if they keep adding content as they ben doing with new difficulties and such, soon we will be facing profound darkness and possibly stronger falz bosses with 30-50+ mil HP. I mean, at some point, fights will literally be like 3-4 rangers + 8 others for dps and 15-20 minute slug fests whittling down their hp bar while dodging 2hkos every 10 seconds... :/

Dark Falz Elder already has 33m, and Magatsu has 64m. Everything's gonna be fine.


Gu/Ra Grav Bomb + Add Bullet or Gu/Bo Zondeel + Bullet Squall. Stop torturing yourself with Hu sub :wacko:

Someone doesn't play XH. Gu/Ra is the better class though.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 12:20 PM
I actually do run GuBo in XH Kuron? Are you really going to try and teach me how to play a class you don't even play by waving airy words like "strategy" around again?

I'm still waiting for you to kill Meduna faster than me as BrHu BTW. It should be trivial considering your gear.

The Walrus
Aug 13, 2015, 12:36 PM
GuBo

wat

5char

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 12:41 PM
I actually do run GuBo in XH Kuron? Are you really going to try and teach me how to play a class you don't even play by waving airy words like "strategy" around again?

I'm still waiting for you to kill Meduna faster than me as BrHu BTW. It should be trivial considering your gear.

Can you give a gameplay vid of this XH kuron you do as GuBo.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 12:43 PM
Can you give a gameplay vid of this XH kuron you do as GuBo.

Sure, been planning one actually. Over the weekend.

Chdata
Aug 13, 2015, 12:45 PM
boss too ^^

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 12:51 PM
Yep, boss too. And solo with 3 FPs.

milranduil
Aug 13, 2015, 12:53 PM
yeah how long does spider bitch take as GuBo?

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 12:57 PM
I actually do run GuBo in XH Kuron? Are you really going to try and teach me how to play a class you don't even play by waving airy words like "strategy" around again?

I'm still waiting for you to kill Meduna faster than me as BrHu BTW. It should be trivial considering your gear.

Why would I waste my time with that? You already demonstrated how shit Fi/Br mobbing was even in SH, and that's even worse than Gu/Bo. I don't need to prove anything when you're going to prove how bad you perform yourself.

Superia
Aug 13, 2015, 02:12 PM
Someone doesn't play XH. Gu/Ra is the better class though.

I have noticed that the enemies in XH Kuron specifically seem to have increased resistance to GB or something, but it is usually the best way for Gu/Xx to group enemies. Unless you were talking about using Add Bullet over Satellite Aim or Bullet Squall, which I agree is ridiculous.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 02:20 PM
My issue with the Gu/Ra suggestion was Gravity Bomb > Addition Bullet yes.

GoldenFalcon
Aug 13, 2015, 04:52 PM
My issue with the Gu/Ra suggestion was Gravity Bomb > Addition Bullet yes.

That combo would make more sense on Ra/Br, but I still don't advocate the use of gunslash

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 05:27 PM
Even when using a GS other PAs like Thrillsplosion would be more effective. Suggesting Addition Bullet in this context makes very little sense, and it already doesn't make much sense to suggest using a GS over something like a launcher or TMGs for Gu/Ra.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 05:49 PM
Why would I waste my time with that? You already demonstrated how shit Fi/Br mobbing was even in SH, and that's even worse than Gu/Bo. I don't need to prove anything when you're going to prove how bad you perform yourself.

For the longest time I was wondering whether you were worth my time or if you were just another keyboard warrior, but all I see is more trash talking and no action, so thanks for giving me the answer.


I have noticed that the enemies in XH Kuron specifically seem to have increased resistance to GB or something, but it is usually the best way for Gu/Xx to group enemies. Unless you were talking about using Add Bullet over Satellite Aim or Bullet Squall, which I agree is ridiculous.

Add Bullet in XH works like this. Throw bomb, press W and shoot, JA Add Bullet. Add Bullet happens outside ZRA range and should kill the weakest XH trash with ~25k HP like Dagan and Torbon outright. After that, Raketen which should take you into ZRA range and kill ~50k HP trash like Udan and Aculpus + knockdown. After that, if anything is still alive, it's in >100k territory which means Thrillplosion setup. Add Bullet and Raketen are used for forward movement while cleaning up lower tiers of trash. Weakest trash in 60F and 28PP, next tier trash in ~135F and 48PP, next tier in ~208F and 78PP.

TMGs on the other hand, Dead Approach then Sat Aim will kill the weakest trash in 80F and 40PP because Dead Approach by itself on GuRa is too weak to kill anything by itself, then next tier trash in ~130F and 60PP, then you need to do height control since Sat Aim is a juggle and two Sat Aims already pop your targets pretty high. Especially if it's a mixed spawn of super armor + juggleable. And if you go Dead Approach into Bullet Squall your DPS is already behind.

Point being Sat Aim is higher DPS on paper but when you factor in the need for gap close and juggle height control/party-friendliness it's really not that simple. And you need to actually play the class to know. But Kuron is an exception because most mobs are tall.


yeah how long does spider bitch take as GuBo?

Best I got is 1:20ish in casualmode without Chain (25ish seconds left on One More Time and I only press it after Aerial Shooting) either with a lot of luck or because the AI derped since i was in a weird position which I need to investigate further and see if it's replicable. I kind of get lazy doing vids because it means I need to actually show some semblance of strategy now and possibly do a skill reset to finally get TMG Mastery.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 06:19 PM
Add Bullet in XH works like this. Throw bomb, press W and shoot, JA Add Bullet. Add Bullet happens outside ZRA range and should kill the weakest XH trash with ~25k HP like Dagan and Torbon outright.

Dagan have 33K. Torbon have 28K. Only stuff you'd be able to one-shot like that are like Sparzyles, unless that's weak point damage. They have 12K.

Not really impressed by those numbers considering you're competing against Cosmo Breaker and other launcher PAs as alternatives.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 06:26 PM
Dagan have 33K. Torbon have 28K. Only stuff you'd be able to one-shot like that are like Sparzyles, unless that's weak point damage. They have 12K.

Not really impressed by those numbers considering you're competing against Cosmo Breaker and other launcher PAs as alternatives.

Bring it up with Sega if XH enemy HP isn't impressive. I was pulling Lv75 enemy HPs from Lulls32moen, not my damage numbers.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 06:34 PM
That checks out for Torbon, but Dagan still have 27K at level 75. Not that you'll ever seen any level 75 Dagan in any relevant quest barring SHAQs, which should be level 80 and are full of infected enemies anyway, so you're looking at 20-50% more HP. And if you're running TD then there's the HP boost waves.

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 06:41 PM
That checks out for Torbon, but Dagan still have 27K at level 75. Not that you'll ever seen any level 75 Dagan in any relevant quest barring SHAQs, which should be level 80 and are full of infected enemies anyway, so you're looking at 20-50% more HP. And if you're running TD then there's the HP boost waves.

Actually I was referencing the last few LQs, where Lv75 Dagan did indeed appear.

Are you really recommending to run TD as Gunner though? You have to understand with Gunner capped, I don't feel a real need to run it for everything anymore, unless it's an area where they have an advantage, like Kuron. Same with other classes btw.

Mattykins
Aug 13, 2015, 06:42 PM
I ran TD as Gunner once.

Once.

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 06:56 PM
Gu/Ra Grav Bomb + Add Bullet or Gu/Bo Zondeel + Bullet Squall. Stop torturing yourself with Hu sub :wacko:

Funny that you bring that up now because just recently some idiot in the game was trying to convince me (like he was trying really hardcore) that Gu/Ra was garbage and that Ra doesnt go with Gunner at all. He was so pretentious I couldnt take it anymore lol

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 07:00 PM
Actually I was referencing the last few LQs, where Lv75 Dagan did indeed appear.

Are you really recommending to run TD as Gunner though? You have to understand with Gunner capped, I don't feel a real need to run it for everything anymore, unless it's an area where they have an advantage, like Kuron. Same with other classes btw.

Uhh, yeah, LQs that are no longer a thing. Darker's Den LQ hasn't been around for over a month.

And no, I don't recall saying anything about that. You do a lot of stuff that you shouldn't do but do anyway and think it's good (Gu/Bo, bringing lightning Fo/Fi in TD, etc), so it wouldn't surprise me if you did do that, but that's not what I was getting at. I was only saying that Dagan have HP ranges that exceed what you can one-shot with Addition Bullet.

And if the discussion is going to go to where you should play Gunner, the answer is obviously boss only EQs. That's pretty much it.

Ginganator12
Aug 13, 2015, 07:21 PM
Uhh, yeah, LQs that are no longer a thing. Darker's Den LQ hasn't been around for over a month.

And no, I don't recall saying anything about that. You do a lot of stuff that you shouldn't do but do anyway and think it's good (Gu/Bo, bringing lightning Fo/Fi in TD, etc), so it wouldn't surprise me if you did do that, but that's not what I was getting at. I was only saying that Dagan have HP ranges that exceed what you can one-shot with Addition Bullet.

And if the discussion is going to go to where you should play Gunner, the answer is obviously boss only EQs. That's pretty much it.

Considering she thinks some thing like Fighter / Bouncer is better than Bouncer / Hunter when every one has proven her wrong should indicate that it's not worth talking to her about any thing class related.

Vatallus
Aug 13, 2015, 07:27 PM
Considering she thinks some thing like Fighter / Bouncer is better than Bouncer / Hunter when every one has proven her wrong should indicate that it's not worth talking to her about any thing class related.

Uhhhh... I guess if you are using 13*s.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 13, 2015, 07:28 PM
Considering she thinks some thing like Fighter / Bouncer is better than Bouncer / Hunter when every one has proven her wrong should indicate that it's not worth talking to her about any thing class related.

But that is the case. Who is "every one"? Most high-end players would tell you the same thing, Fi/Bo > Bo/Hu. Imo Bo/Fi > Bo/Hu too, but /Hu weapons make it a little more complicated.

NexusAZ
Aug 13, 2015, 07:33 PM
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Jesse-Pinkman-Breaking-Bad-Drinking-Water.gif

Selphea
Aug 13, 2015, 07:38 PM
Ok this conversation has officially gone into the land of weirdness. I'm out.

@Chdata: I'll PM you the vid.

Mattykins
Aug 13, 2015, 07:39 PM
lol


...she thinks some thing like Fighter / Bouncer is better than Bouncer / Hunter when every one has proven her wrong...


Ship 6 - 拝啓 Bo/Hu 75/75

...


...Most high-end players would tell you the same thing, Fi/Bo > Bo/Hu. Imo Bo/Fi > Bo/Hu too...


Carmilla ... Bo/Fi

Yeah, I'm going there. My class can beat up your class!

TwistedShaerk
Aug 13, 2015, 07:47 PM
Yeah, I'm going there. My class can beat up your class!

From the looks of it, yeah, you two kind of just walked into that one.

On topic though, hoping the Gu changes make the class reasonable and allow it to compete in XH mobbing with...every other class in the game?

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 13, 2015, 08:05 PM
Considering she thinks some thing like Fighter / Bouncer is better than Bouncer / Hunter when every one has proven her wrong should indicate that it's not worth talking to her about any thing class related.

Um... what?

Everyone actually knows you're wrong.

Mattykins
Aug 13, 2015, 08:52 PM
Like, back to GU, tho...

Sega insists that it's for advanced players and we're all just doing it wrong, but like... it's a shitty class that's kinda viable in the right hands in the right scenario, so it's like... why bother? It needs to be a kinda viable class that's totally OP in the right hands so it's actually satisfying when you pull it off. Like... why would I want to play GU when I can go RA and get a free 255% damage boost with the click of my mouse and blow a boss away with End Attract or Nemesis/Banishing combo? Why bother with GU when I can stack Ilbartas as a FO?

Maenara
Aug 13, 2015, 08:58 PM
How about a passive, 1 SP skill below Chain Trigger that activates on normal attack automatically, once every 60 seconds, causing a chain to begin, but without sending the normal Chain Trigger skill into cooldown?

Searaphim
Aug 13, 2015, 09:18 PM
How about a passive, 1 SP skill below Chain Trigger that activates on normal attack automatically, once every 60 seconds, causing a chain to begin, but without sending the normal Chain Trigger skill into cooldown?

Would be annoying if youre on the 60 seconds cooldown right when starting a boss fight. And that would also be annoying that youre forced to use it when you should keep it for something else.

cheapgunner
Aug 13, 2015, 11:25 PM
The only thing I can think of for Gunner reasonably is to make zero range advance benefit from striking and technic. Give the class a skill so damage from within ZRA's range reduces damage from enemies and have showtime star give s-,r- and t-atk boost with the pp boost,

>.>; *sounded better in my head b4 I posted it thoughts*

GoldenFalcon
Aug 13, 2015, 11:36 PM
They pretty much have no reason to make ZRA affect non-shooting unless they also make Weak Hit Advance on Ranger affect non-shooting

Sriracha X
Aug 13, 2015, 11:39 PM
Gunner is a big reason why I got into PSO2. I love the idea of playing a close-mid range ranged classed with a focus on evading attacks and flying around with style. I didn't expect to be playing a right-click spammy flip warrior during Ep 2 where Infinity Fire and Messiah Time were too good due to godlike S-Roll JA. Ep 3 Gu is a step in the right direction; it's more what I expect out of the class, but it's easy to see that the class is pretty much mediocre when you play it well vs. playing other classes that can do the same or more work for not as much effort.

I'd like to offer my suggestions to improve the class based on my experiences as a 75/55 Gu/Ra and 75/65 Gu/Hu:

-Aerial Advance boosts apply to you being airborne instead of enemies
This has already been discussed and seems to be agreed upon by everyone.

-Satellite Aim and Elder Rebellion no longer launch enemies, but can flinch enemies
Mainly to avoid annoying parties in MPAs, although mobs pretty much fast enough anyways. Still, would be nice to see.

-Penalties for getting hit relaxed for One More Time and High Time
This has also been discussed. I think being able to take 3 hits for OMT and losing 5% bonus dmg on hit for HT is a compromise that sounds good to be. The other ones mentioned earlier in the thread are good too. Pretty much anything that keeps Gu from losing all those bonuses from getting sneezed on lol.

-Ability to S-Roll in place
This would be very useful, especially for Gu/Ra where positioning is important. There are times where a Gu will want to S-Roll to dodge but stay right in the face of enemies. It's aggrevating to dodge some attacks only to see that you're off center and now you're hitting some hitbox that you were previously positioned for. Then you try to get back to that position and then the enemy moves again and so on.

I expressed the idea that a forward S-Roll to help Gu always approach would be great, but peeps in GChat brought up the notion that an approach with i-frames would be too good and put Dead Approach and Grim Barrage out of business. So this may or may not be a good idea. But if Gu were to get it, I'd be ecstatic and I'll be flipping forward all day.

-Chain Trigger being a passive instead of an active skill
I like this suggested idea a lot. CT right now is very finicky to even get a decent chain on anything (especially if it moves). There are some openings that go by so fast (breakable parts, enemy warps or goes away, etc.) that makes*the concept of building a chain a joke. Add on to the fact that of you miss it, you can say goodbye to decent burst DPS for quite awhile, and that can happen easily from my experience.

Making the skill passive (and lowering the damage dealt on a finish in turn) just sounds like a good and fun idea. Nite we don't have to fret missing a chain --we just start again. We can actually utilize the skill on things besides bosses. It would be nice trying to tag multiple enemies with a chain and then follow up with Shift Period for a little extra mobbing DPS or something. If this were to happen, I'd replace Chain F Bonus with a skill that lengthens the time a chain will remain on a enemy.

-Modify Zero Range Advance to increase all damage dealt at close range instead of just ranged damage
This is to make Gu a more viable subclass. Extend this suggestion to Zero Range Critical.

-Do something about those S-Roll skills
I dunno what to offer here, but I'd still like to see something done here. Right now those skills are being neglected. I see the discussion you guys are having on S-Roll JA...maybe give back some of its damage or something

-Revisit some of Gu's PAs
I think most us of agree that some PAs are lacking. Infinity Fire and Messiah Time were beasts back in the Ep 2 days but are awful damage options compared to Elder Rebellion or Satellite Aim spam. I'd suggest just buffing their damage. Or maybe that passive Chain Trigger might make them work out better. Or maybe fixing up the deal with S-Roll JA and whatnot would make them viable again.

Reverse Tap could use a craft. I think someone already suggested this, but the crafted version could probably be charged up for more suction or given more suction overall.

Shift Period could also use a craft that would, I dunno, make it a mobile AoE version. Or perhaps speed up the attack itself or something.

I would say something about Heel Stab, but I use that PA once in a blue moon. I think it should be changed to that it doesn't throw us right back to the ground if used in the air, so it could be another aerial approach option. The barrage of bullets that happens after charged use could be thrown out airborne as well I guess. I need to go and try this PA out again to see how it holds up.

-Improve Gu's mobbing
This is a big one. Mobbing is what Gu struggles the most at. Yes, there is Shift Period but it is awfully slow and ends from a distance don't take a lot of damage. Yeah, charged Heel Stab is apparently a thing, but it being a frontal AoE limits the scope of things. Bottom line is that Gu should not have to rely on other means (gunslash, launcher, zondeel with Bo sub according to Selphea, etc) to mob decently well. Revisions to Reverse Tap and Shift Period through crafts could potentially knock this problem away. Perhaps Gu just need a new PA dedicated for mobbing; maybe something along the lines of gunslash's Strezwei or something.

That's all I can think of right now. I typed all this on my phone so sorry for bad formatting and misspellings. I really want Gu to be awesome if you're great at playing it. Not just...alright. It is so fun to see how long you can stay up in the air, flipping and blasting things as if it were an elegant dance. But with some of the current issues the classes hand and the fact that other classes simply just perform better, that enjoyment tends to get short-lived. I really hope Sega can finally fix the class instead of nerfing it so hard.

GoldenFalcon
Aug 13, 2015, 11:51 PM
Reverse Tap could use a craft. I think someone already suggested this, but the crafted version could probably be charged up for more suction or given more suction overall.

Shift Period could also use a craft that would, I dunno, make it a mobile AoE version. Or perhaps speed up the attack itself or something.

A craft for Reverse Tap to increase the suction, and a 2nd craft to make it mobile (like Bullet Squall) is what I would expect. I would actually hate it if one or both of the crafts had to be charged

My idea of a charged Shift Period craft would be an unprecedented charge mechanic. Basically, you'd charge while doing the first part of the PA (rapid shooting to make a sphere) and you could immediately do the sphere explosion with only a few hits overall, or build up a large sphere over 5 seconds and have a really fancy explosion with lots of hits overall

Agastya
Aug 14, 2015, 03:37 AM
honestly i think gu is in a fine place but i'm brain off fun on but i guess i have things to say about it in general

i like sataim juggling mobs because it means i can tap something to make it stop moving

make sroll not have the stupid matrix flip for 3rd action, give entire flip iframes and not just step iframes when its like 2.5x as long, tired of having to use grim to reset my flip position just to keep dodging banthers

give us an actual height gain pa and not just click aerial shooting ten times to gain jump height because its a charge move

bring heel stab back
i also miss reverse tap /hu spam but i like gravity bomb and stun grenades more

making high time and 1more time have new keeper mechanics would be nice, especially when tumors can just shoot at you

remember old keeper in sh? i do
it was awful


thats all i really feel about gu now though its probably my favorite class to just play and you absolutely murder things if given the chance but considering other classes murder things with about half the effort its pretty lopsided

overall gu buff is welcome, ill take free damage

just stop gluing millas to your face and using infinity fire and maybe youll start to kill things

Oleptro
Aug 14, 2015, 07:12 AM
Gunner is a big reason why I got into PSO2. I love the idea of playing a close-mid range ranged classed with a focus on evading attacks and flying around with style. I didn't expect to be playing a right-click spammy flip warrior during Ep 2 where Infinity Fire and Messiah Time were too good due to godlike S-Roll JA. Ep 3 Gu is a step in the right direction; it's more what I expect out of the class, but it's easy to see that the class is pretty much mediocre when you play it well vs. playing other classes that can do the same or more work for not as much effort.

I'd like to offer my suggestions to improve the class based on my experiences as a 75/55 Gu/Ra and 75/65 Gu/Hu:

-Aerial Advance boosts apply to you being airborne instead of enemies
This has already been discussed and seems to be agreed upon by everyone.

-Satellite Aim and Elder Rebellion no longer launch enemies, but can flinch enemies
Mainly to avoid annoying parties in MPAs, although mobs pretty much fast enough anyways. Still, would be nice to see.

-Penalties for getting hit relaxed for One More Time and High Time
This has also been discussed. I think being able to take 3 hits for OMT and losing 5% bonus dmg on hit for HT is a compromise that sounds good to be. The other ones mentioned earlier in the thread are good too. Pretty much anything that keeps Gu from losing all those bonuses from getting sneezed on lol.

-Ability to S-Roll in place
This would be very useful, especially for Gu/Ra where positioning is important. There are times where a Gu will want to S-Roll to dodge but stay right in the face of enemies. It's aggrevating to dodge some attacks only to see that you're off center and now you're hitting some hitbox that you were previously positioned for. Then you try to get back to that position and then the enemy moves again and so on.

I expressed the idea that a forward S-Roll to help Gu always approach would be great, but peeps in GChat brought up the notion that an approach with i-frames would be too good and put Dead Approach and Grim Barrage out of business. So this may or may not be a good idea. But if Gu were to get it, I'd be ecstatic and I'll be flipping forward all day.

-Chain Trigger being a passive instead of an active skill
I like this suggested idea a lot. CT right now is very finicky to even get a decent chain on anything (especially if it moves). There are some openings that go by so fast (breakable parts, enemy warps or goes away, etc.) that makes*the concept of building a chain a joke. Add on to the fact that of you miss it, you can say goodbye to decent burst DPS for quite awhile, and that can happen easily from my experience.

Making the skill passive (and lowering the damage dealt on a finish in turn) just sounds like a good and fun idea. Nite we don't have to fret missing a chain --we just start again. We can actually utilize the skill on things besides bosses. It would be nice trying to tag multiple enemies with a chain and then follow up with Shift Period for a little extra mobbing DPS or something. If this were to happen, I'd replace Chain F Bonus with a skill that lengthens the time a chain will remain on a enemy.

-Modify Zero Range Advance to increase all damage dealt at close range instead of just ranged damage
This is to make Gu a more viable subclass. Extend this suggestion to Zero Range Critical.

-Do something about those S-Roll skills
I dunno what to offer here, but I'd still like to see something done here. Right now those skills are being neglected. I see the discussion you guys are having on S-Roll JA...maybe give back some of its damage or something

-Revisit some of Gu's PAs
I think most us of agree that some PAs are lacking. Infinity Fire and Messiah Time were beasts back in the Ep 2 days but are awful damage options compared to Elder Rebellion or Satellite Aim spam. I'd suggest just buffing their damage. Or maybe that passive Chain Trigger might make them work out better. Or maybe fixing up the deal with S-Roll JA and whatnot would make them viable again.

Reverse Tap could use a craft. I think someone already suggested this, but the crafted version could probably be charged up for more suction or given more suction overall.

Shift Period could also use a craft that would, I dunno, make it a mobile AoE version. Or perhaps speed up the attack itself or something.

I would say something about Heel Stab, but I use that PA once in a blue moon. I think it should be changed to that it doesn't throw us right back to the ground if used in the air, so it could be another aerial approach option. The barrage of bullets that happens after charged use could be thrown out airborne as well I guess. I need to go and try this PA out again to see how it holds up.

-Improve Gu's mobbing
This is a big one. Mobbing is what Gu struggles the most at. Yes, there is Shift Period but it is awfully slow and ends from a distance don't take a lot of damage. Yeah, charged Heel Stab is apparently a thing, but it being a frontal AoE limits the scope of things. Bottom line is that Gu should not have to rely on other means (gunslash, launcher, zondeel with Bo sub according to Selphea, etc) to mob decently well. Revisions to Reverse Tap and Shift Period through crafts could potentially knock this problem away. Perhaps Gu just need a new PA dedicated for mobbing; maybe something along the lines of gunslash's Strezwei or something.

That's all I can think of right now. I typed all this on my phone so sorry for bad formatting and misspellings. I really want Gu to be awesome if you're great at playing it. Not just...alright. It is so fun to see how long you can stay up in the air, flipping and blasting things as if it were an elegant dance. But with some of the current issues the classes hand and the fact that other classes simply just perform better, that enjoyment tends to get short-lived. I really hope Sega can finally fix the class instead of nerfing it so hard.

Pretty much this.

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 08:18 AM
In ep 2, infinite spam after sroll wasn't really always the most optimal thing, just like now, you had to mix and match PAs if you wanted to do better.

Its just that it was so easy for noobs not to bother.

And now it's just shifted to sataim.


aerial shooting is fine for height gain... just charge it one time and you already almost are at max height... And to keep height you just gotta know how to do the sroll trick. Actually, they need to fix it so that when you hit the ceiling, it doesn't prevent you from flipping and just lets you slide across the ceiling.



Introducing, Chainlink Trigger. Allows you to attach one link of a chain to multiple enemies. Upon activating it and tagging your first enemy, you have X much time to hit as many enemies as possible with bullets, PA or non-PA.

When your time is almost up, you'll see every chainlink go red - this is your time to use a PA and have the damage to every chainlinked mob be connected. Perhaps a timer will be shown similar to katana combat.

If you use an AoE that hits two of the chainlinked enemy, it doubles up on them. Can be used against bosses that spawn enemies around them too, but it won't really be as useful because it only replicates the PA onto them once - it's merely a way to turn any PA into an attack that hits everything at once.

elryan
Aug 14, 2015, 08:33 AM
-Revisit some of Gu's PAs
I think most us of agree that some PAs are lacking. Infinity Fire and Messiah Time were beasts back in the Ep 2 days but are awful damage options compared to Elder Rebellion or Satellite Aim spam.

Messiah Time was shit back in EP2. Gunner was only about either ER or IF and nothing else.

MT needs to be fixed into a single-target melee-range high PP grapple move that gives you invincibility during the entire execution. Something like: (but faster)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8FmyXhvv8A

jooozek
Aug 14, 2015, 08:54 AM
Messiah Time was shit back in EP2. Gunner was only about either ER or IF and nothing else.

no MT but ER when zero effort TMGs were king? https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/245/1.0

in any case i had more fun back then than with the current garbage that gunner is

elryan
Aug 14, 2015, 09:10 AM
no MT but ER when zero effort TMGs were king? https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/245/1.0

in any case i had more fun back then than with the current garbage that gunner is

SRoll JA IF -> walk to enemy -> proc ZRA1&2 + ZE-TMG -> Repeat -> Win

If your definition of fun is using 1-2 PAs again and again and required to SRoll before each and every move... I don't know what to say.

The problem is not that Gunner becomes weaker than Gunner was. Gunner currently is MUCH MUCH stronger than Gunner was (especially since CT & PK & HT becomes feasible in builds nowadays).

The problem is that the other classes deal damage much higher than Gunner currently is with little to no effort.

tl;dr Gunner is not underpowered. Other classes are experiencing power creep.

jooozek
Aug 14, 2015, 09:15 AM
if heel stab + messiah time + infinite fire + dead approach + aerial shooting equals 1 or 2 then yes, your math is spot on :sleepy:

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 12:00 PM
SRoll JA IF -> walk to enemy -> proc ZRA1&2 + ZE-TMG -> Repeat -> Win

If your definition of fun is using 1-2 PAs again and again and required to SRoll before each and every move... I don't know what to say.

The problem is not that Gunner becomes weaker than Gunner was. Gunner currently is MUCH MUCH stronger than Gunner was (especially since CT & PK & HT becomes feasible in builds nowadays).

The problem is that the other classes deal damage much higher than Gunner currently is with little to no effort.

tl;dr Gunner is not underpowered. Other classes are experiencing power creep.

Nah, I feel like other classes are fine now (Except op with 13* - which makes them balanced in UQ) and GU is below them. Regardless of if other classes are OP and GU isn't, GU isn't power creeping as much as them which is also a problem - if a few classes power creep, all of them should.

Gunner is NOT much much stronger. I mean, if you take EP3 gunner and put it into EP2 when SH didn't exist yet, then it would be more OP. But comparatively GU is now weaker to enemies than it was in the past.




If your definition of fun is 1-2 PAs, I could argue that that's how it is now and that in the past it was diversified. So in other words, the number of useful PAs there are isn't an issue. We'll say that both were diversified - except now Gunner cannot do mobbing as well as it did in the past, and PAs that used to be useful are not anymore - while some that were not useful before are useful now.

Messiah time wasn't trash in EP2. It was more damage than most PAs. Unless you think its mechanics were trash, but then that's just called not knowing how to play well.

ep.2: heel stab + messiah time + infinite fire + dead approach + aerial shooting + shift period + elder rebellion
ep.3: SatAim + dead approach everything else is kinda niche now /less useful than just going up to sataim/ but shift period and the new crafted PA gets an honorable mention


If all you did was IF in ep.2, you weren't killing groups of mobs as well as you could... I would mostly use it to dodge while DPSing a boss or something because it was so much faster to heel stab or shift period mobs.... and for bosses I mostly used messiah time and elder rebellion. I used dead approach often too.

daviloled
Aug 14, 2015, 12:06 PM
if heel stab + messiah time + infinite fire + dead approach + aerial shooting equals 1 or 2 then yes, your math is spot on :sleepy:

Your Weap Pallete had only 1 first slot to use to deal massive dmg due to garbage SRoll JA, 2 other slots became unusable, and you have fun with that.

jooozek
Aug 14, 2015, 12:08 PM
Your Weap Pallete had only 1 first slot to use to deal massive dmg due to garbage SRoll JA, 2 other slots became unusable, and you have fun with that.

you realise that people actually posses(ed) manual ( :D ) skills allowing them to switch palettes on fly? :sleepy:

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 12:09 PM
Your Weap Pallete had only 1 first slot to use to deal massive dmg due to garbage SRoll JA, 2 other slots became unusable, and you have fun with that.

Not true. All you have to do is attack once to use the other slots, and there was good ways to use that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ff2yiLHJXg

Mind the ep.2 numbers and me not using chain trigger just to show off.

daviloled
Aug 14, 2015, 12:13 PM
I know how to change pallete in the air though, but rly you need to roll before using every PA, dat gives me cancer.
It's like u use DA to approach your target after Building Chain and you need to roll before u can finish it off. Besides, SRoll on everything make Standing Snipe unusable, making Gu/Ra lost a ton of dmg.

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 12:18 PM
If they brought that back, given todays numbers, you wouldn't need to roll for the PAs that don't need that or don't work well with that in the first place, which I think would add some nice extra diversity and bring back the old play style.

Besides the sroll is really fast... I don't see why that's a hassle.

Sroll: Infinity Fire + Elder rebellion + Messiah time + heel stab + shift period + bullet squall
JA: sataim + reverse tap + Dead approach + grim barrage
Still okayish without sroll: heel stab + shift period + bullet squall (since these are used for things still today)


Basically if multiple PAs are kinda op in their own way, or at least viable in their own way, you can choose to use what you feel like. Right now I feel like I could choose shift period or heel stab and they'd relatively be just as useful as eachother. Same with katana's new PA vs sakura endo.

daviloled
Aug 14, 2015, 12:28 PM
Yea i agree with SRoll and Shift Period, the feel when u roll in mob crowd and finish them. But with some boss, SRoll need a re-direction to aim their small weak spot like Blu Ringa, SRoll becomes nightmare to me :(, i know how to aim a weak spot while SRoll too, but it took too many effort and then boss ran away. I prefer re-aiming 1 time then spamming PA to re-aiming on every PA.

Natsu Nem
Aug 14, 2015, 12:31 PM
Messiah Time was shit back in EP2. Gunner was only about either ER or IF and nothing else

Wat

Which EP2 were you playing? MT was the most damaging GU PA in EP2 when it came to bossing. I remember completely destroying caters within seconds with Srolled MTs. Chained MTs with WB support was disgusting.

Slap on GMs and bossing became completely faceroll.

Vatallus
Aug 14, 2015, 01:05 PM
There is an elephant in this room and I am leaving before I talk about it.

Also MT was the most damaging Gunner PA when bosses couldn't move.

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 01:08 PM
And against bosses whose face you practically stay in all the time.

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 01:46 PM
As requested

[spoiler-box]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqgDsdffGo[/spoiler-box]

Fraps changes up the timing of button presses slightly so I lost time trying to get Showtime and Chain Trigger to activate and S rolling the wrong direction. Also mid-air TPS chain really is difficult. If I just went straight up Sat Aim the boss would've gone faster.

Still need to work on car strategy too. While uploading, I poked around Youtube and Nico and saw a Ra/Hu resort to 4 WBs, and another Fi/Br use Katana Combat Finish on those. Those things seem to be more srsbsns than I thought. Dead Approach Chain or even PBF may need to come in.

Maenara
Aug 14, 2015, 02:15 PM
Gunner and Fighter should both have a passive skill that deals high damage to any enemy that was in close-range but leaves it.

If anyone else here played Wakfu, they might recognize this as being inspired by Wakfu's Lock/Dodge system.

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 02:18 PM
As requested

[spoiler-box]Gu/Bo XH Kuron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqgDsdffGo)[/spoiler-box]

Fraps changes up the timing of button presses slightly so I lost time trying to get Showtime and Chain Trigger to activate and S rolling the wrong direction. Also mid-air TPS chain really is difficult. If I just went straight up Sat Aim the boss would've gone faster.

Still need to work on car strategy too. While uploading, I poked around Youtube and Nico and saw a Ra/Hu resort to 4 WBs, and another Fi/Br use Katana Combat Finish on those. Those things seem to be more srsbsns than I thought. Dead Approach Chain or even PBF may need to come in.

wtf lol... the cars are easy I just spam sakura on their nose / cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeese


Also I know someone requested you add friendpartners, but I don't see why. Doesn't that only make it easier? That sounds like it'd get in the way of a showcase.

Or does it make more stuff spawn now?

Also, I use twitch.tv + OpenBroadcaster to record. It's not as laggy as fraps, doesn't fill your computer with craps, and you can highlight portions of the stream to upload straight to youtube.

Now for me to do some dmg comparisons.

...

tomorrow cause I have overtime tonight

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 02:20 PM
Makes more stuff spawn. Solo only 2 rabbits would have spawned in the first E-code.

Superia
Aug 14, 2015, 03:02 PM
How about a passive, 1 SP skill below Chain Trigger that activates on normal attack automatically, once every 60 seconds, causing a chain to begin, but without sending the normal Chain Trigger skill into cooldown?

I have considered something similar, some sort of automatic ability that causes CT-esque multipliers to form on enemies simply by normally attacking the same spots repeatedly. I think that such a thing would not need that sort of a cooldown (or a considerably shorter one if at all) though, and be much less potent than CT in general due to being passively invoked. It may or may not stack with the CT skill itself.

Edit: I did not say this and failed to imply it, but this would presumably be TMG only skill, possibly a Main Class only skill, though I cannot currently think of anything that would want to sub Gunner for something like that when they could just use the actual CT or sub Ranger for WB.



Still need to work on car strategy too. While uploading, I poked around Youtube and Nico and saw a Ra/Hu resort to 4 WBs, and another Fi/Br use Katana Combat Finish on those. Those things seem to be more srsbsns than I thought. Dead Approach Chain or even PBF may need to come in.

The cars seemed trivial on Gu/Ra. The most problematic mob to me was that dollhouse with the lolipop. It could seemingly just choose not to expose its weakpoints and take insignificant damage for a high duration if the RNG was right, but there may be some strategy to deal with it that I do not know about.

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 03:19 PM
To the people saying mech guns need better mobbing to not rely on other weapons, do you also think wands need better bossing for the same reasons? What about bow? Is it simply a matter of mech guns not being as strong as other boss oriented weapon sets while also having relatively bad mobbing?


Makes more stuff spawn. Solo only 2 rabbits would have spawned in the first E-code.

I have to ask, why Gu/Bo?



. The most problematic mob to me was that dollhouse with the lolipop. It could seemingly just choose not to expose its weakpoints and take insignificant damage for a high duration if the RNG was right, but there may be some strategy to deal with it that I do not know about.If the wrong head is hit then they don't let their heads out again until they do that missile attack. If they can't get into a good position to use it then it can take longer than usual.

Chdata
Aug 14, 2015, 03:48 PM
Well, whatever he's doing as BoHu beat my time for BrHu and FoTe (elysion), except I don't have the main boss well practiced nor a strategy for it so I took even longer than I should have.

Superia
Aug 14, 2015, 03:54 PM
To the people saying mech guns need better mobbing to not rely on other weapons, do you also think wands need better bossing for the same reasons? What about bow? Is it simply a matter of mech guns not being as strong as other boss oriented weapon sets while also having relatively bad mobbing?

For bossing, Wands are only different from Rods by a small factor of stats and class equipability. Any problem with their bossing is either a problem with techs themselves or a problem with the design of Techer. Bows do have seriously bad mobbing even with Gravity Point existing, but I don't think anyone is saying that they should not get better at mobbing.

That said, I don't think that TMGs have the worst mobbing. They are above average at mobbing when it comes to R-ATK based weapons (which are mainly bossing weapons honestly), with AR and BB being terrible in many situations and Launcher falling off majorly after SH. In my opinion, the thing stopping it from being great mobbing would be Oceanids and Mechs having difficult-to-access weak points, which seriously hurts their damage, but that is just how R-ATK weapons are in this game.

For that part about relying on one weapon, that's more a problem created by Gunner's preferred subclasses and the fact that Sega didn't give them another unique weapon (or at least a better mobbing weapon than AR).

Mattykins
Aug 14, 2015, 04:02 PM
"Hey, we made a new Ranged class. Should we give it a mobbing weapon?"

"Nah just give it 2 bossing weapons. No one'll notice!"

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 04:04 PM
I'm kinda coming from the perspective that, I used to feel Gu needed better mobbing too, but that was back when it basically only had 3 PAs worth using. Once S-roll got nerfed I actually became more content with their mobbing even though other classes can do it better (you're right though mech guns aren't the worst at it).

I feel now that no one weapon needs to be good at everything, and from a purely conceptual standpoint mech guns are great bossing weapons and decent mobbing weapon, they just can't keep up in the bossing department with things like banish, which honestly is a pretty ridiculous PA anyway. I just kinda like the idea of classes being encouraged to use subclass weapons more, especially now that there's so many decent multiclass options.

Most of the changes I want for Gu have to do more with streamlining it and making more of the skills it has viable rather than just more damage, but I think everyone feels that way.

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 07:58 PM
I have to ask, why Gu/Bo?

If you noticed, /Bo solves quite a few major complaints brought up.

Poor mobbing -> Zondeel
GM was nerfed, Perfect Keeper hard to maintain -> Megiverse
TMG Mastery + APPR not enough -> Deband PP

I run both /Bo and /Ra really. /Ra is close to double damage on Sat Aim after Standing Snipe kicks in, but can't heal in the air. It's similar to Fo/Te vs Fo/Br, utility vs damage.

Re: Wands, they have Barantsion now. Hardly bad bossing. And there's the weapon specialist classes like Katana, Jet Boots and Dual Blades that are more rounded.

Btw your second quote should be attributed to Superia, not me.


The cars seemed trivial on Gu/Ra. The most problematic mob to me was that dollhouse with the lolipop. It could seemingly just choose not to expose its weakpoints and take insignificant damage for a high duration if the RNG was right, but there may be some strategy to deal with it that I do not know about.

Poison trap or Poison TMGs + Bullet Squall to proc with law of large numbers seems to work.

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 09:45 PM
If you noticed, /Bo solves quite a few major complaints brought up.

Poor mobbing -> Zondeel
GM was nerfed, Perfect Keeper hard to maintain -> Megiverse
TMG Mastery + APPR not enough -> Deband PP

I run both /Bo and /Ra really. /Ra is close to double damage on Sat Aim after Standing Snipe kicks in, but can't heal in the air. It's similar to Fo/Te vs Fo/Br, utility vs damage.I was just curious mostly. It seems like an odd choice for a place with so many zondeel immune mobs and where you can avoid most damage by flying around with bullet squall though.


Re: Wands, they have Barantsion now. Hardly bad bossing. And there's the weapon specialist classes like Katana, Jet Boots and Dual Blades that are more rounded.I don't think Berenstain (I'm calling it that now) is enough to really compete with some of the crazy stuff you can pull off with WB. Especially if the boss isn't weak to it, but eh, I'll concede for now.

And you're right, Katana, Jet boots, and Dual Blades ARE well rounded... I'm pretty sure the only think Katana has over Mech guns for mobbing is bigger AoEs though. Jet boots don't really excel at anything, and DBs being good at mobbing is an anomaly as far as I'm concerned.

I think my problem is I don't like the idea of mech guns turning into another class that throws around massive damage from across the room like Fo and Ra do as a solution to its mobbing problems, but it feels like that's what people expect.


Btw your second quote should be attributed to Superia, not me.
My bad. 8U

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 14, 2015, 10:17 PM
I'm pretty sure the only think Katana has over Mech guns for mobbing is bigger AoEs though.

And the sheer damage.

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 10:30 PM
EDIT: (putting this on top cause it's not directed at anyone) I just realized why gunner bothers me. It's the only class that's almost entirely defined by it's signature weapon. Br and Bo have a similar problem but it's downplayed with them because they have two unique weapons each, whereas gunner only has one, the other weapon is shared by ranger who has more skills and utilities for it than Gu does anyway. Think about how often people take Hu, Fi, and te for their skill trees more than their weapons. I'd really like that to be an option for all the classes but Gu has so much stuff that's Mech gun centric, even if it's not mech gun exclusive. People keep talking about how good or bad Gu is, when what they're really talking about is how good or bad mech guns are. I barely see anyone talking about rifle, or even taking it into consideration, and apparently Gunslash doesn't count for some reason.


And the sheer damage.Fair enough. I've already said what I want to say about gunner's damage though. I think it should be doing more. I don't think all of it should be loaded on to S-roll (or chain either for that matter). That's about it.

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 10:37 PM
I was just curious mostly. It seems like an odd choice for a place with so many zondeel immune mobs and where you can avoid most damage by flying around with bullet squall though.

That's actually where Deband PP comes in - fast PP regen in the air. The effect isn't really noticeable unless you look for it, but you'll notice I worry about Deband uptime more than Shifta, especially when low on PP.


I don't think Berenstain (I'm calling it that now) is enough to really compete with some of the crazy stuff you can pull off with WB. Especially if the boss isn't weak to it, but eh, I'll concede for now.

If the boss isn't weak then use Fomelgion :p


And you're right, Katana, Jet boots, and Dual Blades ARE well rounded... I'm pretty sure the only think Katana has over Mech guns for mobbing is bigger AoEs though. Jet boots don't really excel at anything, and DBs being good at mobbing is an anomaly as far as I'm concerned.

Kazan and Combat Finish are pretty huge. Of course, headshot Bullet Squall is too, but that's a smaller AoE so it needs suction.


I think my problem is I don't like the idea of mech guns turning into another class that throws around massive damage from across the room like Fo and Ra do as a solution to its mobbing problems, but it feels like that's what people expect.

Mine is that they're machineguns but are they even used like guns should be used? How many quick-draw, spray-type attacks do they even have, and why do I need to do some pointless flip kick that hits the air just to get some actual bullets out?

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 10:43 PM
Mine is that they're machineguns but are they even used like guns should be used? How many quick-draw, spray-type attacks do they even have, and why do I need to do some pointless flip kick that hits the air just to get some actual bullets out?http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunKata

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 10:44 PM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunKata

The trope is Gun Fu, not Gun Kata. Gun Kata is more about the bang than the pow :wacko:

TaigaUC
Aug 14, 2015, 10:47 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, but is there a way to build combination tech meter as Wand melee?

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 10:47 PM
The trope is Gun Fu, not Gun Kata. Gun Kata is more about the bang than the pow :wacko:
You are correct. I didn't see the related link, my bad. I thought it felt off. Either way I'm rather fond of gunner's style since it's distinct. This is coming from someone who's bitter about teching weapons being so similar though. :/

ZynischQ
Aug 14, 2015, 10:51 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, but is there a way to build combination tech meter as Wand melee?

Hit things with techs.

Yes that sucks.

Rayden
Aug 14, 2015, 10:56 PM
Re: Wands, they have Barantsion now. Hardly bad bossing. And there's the weapon specialist classes like Katana, Jet Boots and Dual Blades that are more rounded.

Barantsion is just a one time attack though, it's not something that can be spammed repeatedly like other classes have. Plus, it also seems pretty rare to even be able to charge those compound techs during a run when playing as Techer, as melee attacks don't fill the gauge. I'd hardly say that makes wands good for bossing. Feels more like a useless gimmick to me.

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 10:57 PM
Didn't read the whole thread, but is there a way to build combination tech meter as Wand melee?Hitting things with techs is the only way, that's actually why I didn't mention combination techs when I said wand isn't that good at bossing. x:

LonelyGaruga
Aug 14, 2015, 10:58 PM
If you noticed, /Bo solves quite a few major complaints brought up.

Poor mobbing -> Zondeel
GM was nerfed, Perfect Keeper hard to maintain -> Megiverse
TMG Mastery + APPR not enough -> Deband PP

I run both /Bo and /Ra really. /Ra is close to double damage on Sat Aim after Standing Snipe kicks in, but can't heal in the air. It's similar to Fo/Te vs Fo/Br, utility vs damage.

Re: Wands, they have Barantsion now. Hardly bad bossing. And there's the weapon specialist classes like Katana, Jet Boots and Dual Blades that are more rounded.

Not really seeing how /Bo solves any problems that /Ra doesn't do as well.

Poor mobbing: Gravity Bomb, higher damage output means mobs die faster
GM nerf: Heals 50 per hit on stuff like Bullet Squall, Megiverse isn't really needed, Gu/Ra does more damage without Perfect Keeper than Gu/Bo does with it anyway
PP problems: Killing Bonus, Tactics Trap, higher damage means better mileage out of PP usage

/Ra gives you

-An 82% multiplier for hitting weak points, and a 141% multiplier with Standing Snipe on top.
-Weak Bullet, for tanky mob/boss killing and supporting MPA damage output
-Killing Bonus and Tactics Trap, for PP sustain.
-Launchers and Gravity Bomb, for mobbing utility.

What does Bouncer give that's competitive enough to justify using it? It has utility, but Ranger has similar utility and far superior damage. It's the same issue with Fo/Te and Fo/Br actually, since you bring that up. Fo/Te has damage and utility, while Fo/Br just has damage (and the damage is worse in a lot of ways). Fo/Br is not viable at all compared to Fo/Te, because there's very little it does better and very little of it is actually worth ditching /Te for. From what you've shown, and from what you've said, I don't see how this isn't the same case for Gu/Ra and Gu/Bo.

That aside, JBs and wands are honestly not very good at bossing, although they're not the worst weapons either. As impressive as Vinto looks, the damage output is not notably higher than some of Fo/Te's regular tech usage, and without composites, Force is one of the worse bossing classes. Going off my own numbers, Vinto is about 300-325K range on a weak point. Ragrants does roughly 83K every use (332K in four uses, or about 1.5-2s). Counting the time it takes to charge JB Gear back again, they're roughly on par, Fo/Te may even be a little better. And although wand composites are strong, they're still a good 40-50% weaker (estimating) than what Fo/Te can output. You're only looking at about 500-600K on a weak point.

Compared to other classes, these options just aren't very good.


Didn't read the whole thread, but is there a way to build combination tech meter as Wand melee?

Only techs. Composite techs fill based on damage done and scales on enemy level. Against level 80 enemies, around 725K damage must be done with a cap of 29K per hit (so 25 hits minimum) in order to charge a composite tech.

Selphea
Aug 14, 2015, 11:00 PM
Wouldn't Techer need to Gimegid some Kuronite heads though? Gunner usually bosses with one Chain, Braver with one KCF, a single compound Tech mixed with some Banish combos shouldn't be too farfetched.


Not really seeing how /Bo solves any problems that /Ra doesn't do as well.

Poor mobbing: Gravity Bomb, higher damage output means mobs die faster
GM nerf: Heals 50 per hit on stuff like Bullet Squall, Megiverse isn't really needed, Gu/Ra does more damage without Perfect Keeper than Gu/Bo does with it anyway
PP problems: Killing Bonus, Tactics Trap, higher damage means better mileage out of PP usage

There's a Gu/Ra Kuron run on Nico. The player uses Grav Bomb but they spend more time positioning for it. It's considerably more effort. Granted, they also happened to do it in 6:51, but with much better gear and without NPCs so spawn density was lower. Par time seems to be 11-13mins, usually without NPCs and with 12* and above so I feel like I'm on the OK side using a crafted 10*.

Don't really feel like going through the rest because knowing you, this will go on forever.

Kondibon
Aug 14, 2015, 11:13 PM
mixed with some Banish combos shouldn't be too farfetched.The whole conversation just now was about classes using other weapons for certain aspects of the game My argument was that it's ok if Mech guns aren't great at mobbing if they're good at bossing because if melee te/br can use bows to make up for their lack of bossing ability with wands, and Ra/Br or Br/Ra can use launchers to get around bows being pretty bad at mobbing, then I don't see why Mech guns have to be amazing at it. Damage aside of course. The real problem is that, with the existence of stuff like banish, they fall behind in bossing too.

EDIT: reworded it.

LonelyGaruga
Aug 14, 2015, 11:57 PM
There's a Gu/Ra Kuron run on Nico. The player uses Grav Bomb but they spend more time positioning for it. It's considerably more effort. Granted, they also happened to do it in 6:51, but with much better gear and without NPCs so spawn density was lower. Par time seems to be 11-13mins, usually without NPCs and with 12* and above so I feel like I'm on the OK side using a crafted 10*.

Is this (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26889747) what you're talking about? This is obviously a casual playing, you know. They weren't even aiming their Gravity Bombs, and they wasted a lot of time goofing around changing camera angles, waiting on cooldowns, and picking up drops. Their damage on weak points was even lower than your own. This is obviously not a serious demonstration of anything, just goofing around. Compare how their boss run went with this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2y8yR4-OX0). The nico player took 1:55. Compare that with 14s.

It'd make a ton more sense to demonstrate how you played Gu/Ra in Kuronia if you play both Gu/Bo and Gu/Ra, so that player skill was not a factor.

btw, KCF only does a couple hundred K on weak points, and composite techs for Te/Br are weaker than BA combos if Weak Stance can't proc on both elements.

Selphea
Aug 15, 2015, 12:02 AM
6:51, which that one wasn't. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26878265

Kokurokoki
Aug 15, 2015, 12:35 AM
Hmm... so if the trees get updated will we be getting another skill reset pass?

Selphea
Aug 15, 2015, 12:36 AM
Hmm... so if the trees get updated will we be getting another skill reset pass?

Should be finding out in the livestream tomorrow.

Youmu Konpaku
Aug 15, 2015, 01:31 AM
eee about Gu/Ra and Gu/Bo ..

imo, they maybe like in Gu/Hu and Gu/Ra at ep2, i mean the same is they have plus minus each other .. i think both is okay ..

Squal_FFVIII
Aug 15, 2015, 01:34 AM
Why is Sega buffing BR again?

Do they want to make it the "to go melee class" again?

I remember the days when if you didn't play shunka spam BR you were a "fucking scrub" that should die in a fire.

Now that I think about it those were also the days when everyone was a GU/HU aswell.

Kokurokoki
Aug 15, 2015, 02:17 AM
I remember the days when if you didn't play shunka spam BR you were a "fucking scrub" that should die in a fire.


What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.

jooozek
Aug 15, 2015, 02:35 AM
What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.
why do people hide behind the "the game is PvE so i don't give two fucks" facade? i guess this is why all the recent magatsu/mining defenses i've played were are all such garbage because people think being special snowflakes enables them to "have fun" - i'm actually not surprised people are leaving after first three minutes, it seems like a massive waste of boosts, might as well go do challenge mode in the meantime

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 15, 2015, 02:36 AM
Why is Sega buffing BR again?

Do they want to make it the "to go melee class" again?

I remember the days when if you didn't play shunka spam BR you were a "fucking scrub" that should die in a fire.

Now that I think about it those were also the days when everyone was a GU/HU aswell.

To be honest with you, I'm not entirely sure why. My vague ideas are:

-LB Fi-main has been so popularized with nearly all striking weapons, but less so for katanas (Fi/Br with magatsu katana is kinda shown-up by 60 ele ideal karen Br/Hu anyway)

-katanas have been generally mediocre at magatsu, which gives even more weight to Fi (not sure how they fare now with guren, but is likely not outperforming daggers/knucles)

-the things keeping Fi/Br from overtaking Br/Hu are limited to 13*s, and a skill tree that doesn't suck total ass as a mainclass compared to Fi (Bo's badly designed skill tree is half the reason Fi/Bo is preferred, even if you have 13*s)

-katana's best all-around PA was sakura end ever since episode 3 hit up to kuron, and guren's inclusion due to the 40% shunka nerf

-I think hatou still is missing that one bonus hit it used to deal, taking the 6-hit sweet spot down to 5, and incurred a loss of... ~12% of that original 6-hit damage (could i get confirmation on this?)

Admittedly despite it all, katanas still sport fierce dps potential against a boss (that isn't magatsu) with two damage steroids, hatou's speed making the most of ketos proi, while conveniently being among the highest dps PAs among melee weapons (yeah it's pretty much katana BHS), and having access to the next closest thing to a compound tech via combat finish. Kazan craft greatly improved katana's AOE situation, and guren... needs a paragraph to itself as to what it gave to katanas.

In short... I don't know why :wacko:. Maybe too many people said katanas are mediocre (or some people said they were outright bad, which I disagreed with) too much, and SEGA decided to turn it up to 11 again (or maybe it's just poor timing to buff katanas after they gave them kazan zero and guren).

femme fatale
Aug 15, 2015, 02:42 AM
Not everything is viable when most of the games content relies on other players playstyle to get the most out of it, then people get disappointed when players in the multi-party have really bad gear and aren't contributing enough because they do things differently/inefficiently.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 15, 2015, 02:47 AM
What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.

I agree this game is a bit more lenient when it comes to this... but you should understand the context of the situation: this was the closing of episode two, when tower defense was THE EQ to do, where the only classes capable of extreme feats of spawn nuking, damage, time-saving, and 4th running were katana Br/Hu, and s-roll Gu/Hu + the usual enabler, the /Te.

Br/Hu, and Gu/Hu were worlds above everyone else in the most important EQ of the time; they carried MPAs hard. This was back when elysion->sazan was the way to play Fo/Te, before Fi stances lost their penalty, before LB, element conversion, compound techs, sat cannon, and melee PAs that actually dealt real damage.

That was a time where you either were katana Br/Hu, S-roll Gu/Hu, a walking WB/zondeel dispenser, or you were just an extra in the single most important EQ of the time. Maidoll even made a few comics to call attention to this from the POV of her caseal hunter.

Kondibon
Aug 15, 2015, 02:49 AM
What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.
It's not about "viability" it's about conflicting goals. People play games to get different things out of them and for some people being efficient is how they enjoy the game. The problem comes from the fact that other people can, by not being efficient themselves hold these people back because it's not just PvE it's TEAM based PvE, so if one member of the team isn't doing their best then the entire team is less for it however little.

Hell, for all my grandstanding, even I'm not exempt since I at least want to be able to clear the content, and knowing we couldn't because some other people decided to bring a +5 lambda patty lumera to TD3.

I guess the best way to put it is what's "Viable" depends entirely on one's goals.

That said, no one has to be mean about it, but a lot of people are.

EDIT: Also, before someone pulls the "I play for fun" card, because I know someone will. The people who play efficiently are doing it for fun too, because that's what they find fun.

ArcaneTechs
Aug 15, 2015, 03:24 AM
It's not about "viability" it's about conflicting goals. People play games to get different things out of them and for some people being efficient is how they enjoy the game. The problem comes from the fact that other people can, by not being efficient themselves hold these people back because it's not just PvE it's TEAM based PvE, so if one member of the team isn't doing their best then the entire team is less for it however little.

Hell, for all my grandstanding, even I'm not exempt since I at least want to be able to clear the content, and knowing we couldn't because some other people decided to bring a +5 lambda patty lumera to TD3.

I guess the best way to put it is what's "Viable" depends entirely on one's goals.

That said, no one has to be mean about it, but a lot of people are.

EDIT: Also, before someone pulls the "I play for fun" card, because I know someone will. The people who play efficiently are doing it for fun too, because that's what they find fun.
Hard to find someone like you that actually gets what most people want in this game (or I would like to think most) but try explaining that same thing to someone else and you probably end up with them calling it "Elitism" "I play for fun" "My 5-8x random Gryphon Soul 10* units work just fine for me at +5-9 with my ungrinded Xie weapon".

Kondibon
Aug 15, 2015, 03:36 AM
Hard to find someone like you that actually gets what most people want in this game (or I would like to think most) but try explaining that same thing to someone else and you probably end up with them calling it "Elitism" "I play for fun" "My 5-8x random Gryphon Soul 10* units work just fine for me at +5-9 with my ungrinded Xie weapon".If that's what you think people will get out of it then I've failed to convey what I meant properly. :/

I was trying to say whether or not someone's playstyle is "viable" depends on their goals, which can conflict with, or not live up to, the goals of other players. I don't think either side is superior.

Flaoc
Aug 15, 2015, 03:56 AM
Hard to find someone like you that actually gets what most people want in this game (or I would like to think most) but try explaining that same thing to someone else and you probably end up with them calling it "Elitism" "I play for fun" "My 5-8x random Gryphon Soul 10* units work just fine for me at +5-9 with my ungrinded Xie weapon".

unfortunately this is the case.. u dont even need godly gear just do something reasonable like a +10 10* or higher wep (or crafted to the point where silva materials are used 7-9*) with 60-80 atk affixes and 60-80 atk on the units making sure they are a decent set... this is bare minimal of course but honestly its pretty easy to do these days. (and no really stupid builds.. im looking at you bo/br) of course though in game im not very nice about this...

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 15, 2015, 03:59 AM
Gave it a bit more thought, and the general reason why SEGA gives special attention to katana braver is simple, and something I came to a conclusion about for over a year ago; if katanas come up short in either mobbing or bossing, people will go back to Fi/Hu. It has happened already at braver release.

Why did it happen, and why could it happen again? A combination of Fi and Hu is superior at using any striking weapon that isn't a katana over Br/Xx. If you must resort to using a weapon other than the katana to deal with either mobbing, or bossing, you may as well use it as Fi/Hu, or Hu/Fi for superior damage, and pick one of their bossing weapons of choice to compliment it.

What exactly happened with katana braver during episode 2 release? Br/Hu was preferred to deal as much damage as possible with a katanas. Katanas had strong mobbing ability, but total trash at boss killing. Hunter weapons were already good at mobbing at the time, so katanas were pretty redundant in their role as Br/Hu. The result for many was to go back to Fi/Hu to have the superior bossing weapons of Fi, and deal more damage with the usual lambda aristin/patty lumeria for mooks.

^ That is likely why SEGA gives special attention to katanas every now and again. It's why katanas are intentionally designed to be so well-rounded; katanas just cannot be allowed to have a glaring weakness, or else braver entirely loses its place as a potential melee class worth using over Fi/Hu combos.



Only thing questionable at times is the degree of power they give to katanas, and when they do it. The buffs coming after kazan nadeshiko zero, and guren-tessen has even me thinking "maybe that's overkill"... but then again, the buffs are katana gear-centric, so it's can't be that absurd... right...?

Superia
Aug 15, 2015, 04:28 AM
Only thing questionable at times is the degree of power they give to katanas, and when they do it. The buffs coming after kazan nadeshiko zero, and guren-tessen has even me thinking "maybe that's overkill"... but then again, the buffs are katana gear-centric, so it's can't be that absurd... right...?

I believe their intent to be increasing the damage buff gained by just guarding with sufficient gear. I doubt they'd increase it by much, but you never know.

dekopong
Aug 15, 2015, 06:00 AM
If you say "elitist" and deny the value another guy believes in, why can you expect the guy to respect your value?

I believe that if you are superior(or at least you think so), you should be kind to the others but I'm not sure I can be kind when I see a Lambda Patty +5 in XH TD3. lol

Maybe off topic? Since class balance is something SEGA should be blamed, but not having "enough" equipment is something the player should be blamed.

ArcaneTechs
Aug 15, 2015, 06:21 AM
If that's what you think people will get out of it then I've failed to convey what I meant properly. :/

I was trying to say whether or not someone's playstyle is "viable" depends on their goals, which can conflict with, or not live up to, the goals of other players. I don't think either side is superior.
No I got that part but at the same time, I was trying to say despite the play style they want to go with, Gear can help back that up (even if only to an extent) but with ppl these days just getting whatever drops for them (be it good or bad) and just using that only on the go, it's gonna hinder you and your team mates around you. I can't honestly take someone serious when they're w/e class combo they are with units like Elder Rear/Uranus Arm/Blue Feather Leg unit all with just random whatever on them.

I'm not saying you need to have the most fantastic gear in the world but at least gauge to where its actually benefiting you more instead of "well i got this, good enough" whether your lucky or not but whether having 60-100atk on your units is going to be something you'll utilize to the fullest? Thats up to the individual. At the same time though, it's up to the person to actual hone their skill as that class combo so that they themselves can hold their own and in 12 man mpa's add on to the current group firepower instead of the old "well looks like the group is strong, guess I won't try as hard" or "I'm not very good so I'll just do whatever, they can carry me"

if thats still not what your trying to convey then idk, it's late, honestly, I think if people just practiced and strengthened their skill as w/e their main class combo is, maybe we would have less mpa trouble but you know, people have their own reasons to play the game (stress reliever, fun etc).

Chdata
Aug 15, 2015, 08:06 AM
If you say "elitist" and deny the value another guy believes in, why can you expect the guy to respect your value?

I believe that if you are superior(or at least you think so), you should be kind to the others but I'm not sure I can be kind when I see a Lambda Patty +5 in XH TD3. lol

Maybe off topic? Since class balance is something SEGA should be blamed, but not having "enough" equipment is something the player should be blamed.

Then what's the excuse for "unsuperior" people to flat out grief my MPAs by being part of the problem that has made me never see a winning TD3 in SH and XH ever since I came back a month before Gal Gryphon LQ came out?

Or those magatsu where everyone leaves.

I don't complain about them often, pretty much only when this kinda stuff gets brought up, and I definitely don't say anything to anyone in-game...

But they're as good as people who go into MPAs, and then sit in a corner doing nothing for free EXP.

Chdata
Aug 15, 2015, 08:12 AM
What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.

Uh no. Go barefist XH luther and tell me how viable it was.

[Ayumi]
Aug 15, 2015, 09:38 AM
Uh no. Go barefist XH luther and tell me how viable it was.

Now I really want to see a 12/12 mpa fighting Loser with just fists.
Someone make a video.

dekopong
Aug 15, 2015, 10:07 AM
Then what's the excuse for "unsuperior" people to flat out grief my MPAs by being part of the problem that has made me never see a winning TD3 in SH and XH ever since I came back a month before Gal Gryphon LQ came out?

Or those magatsu where everyone leaves.

I don't complain about them often, pretty much only when this kinda stuff gets brought up, and I definitely don't say anything to anyone in-game...

But they're as good as people who go into MPAs, and then sit in a corner doing nothing for free EXP.

No single win after GGLQ? Really? That's a real pain!

TD2 is something difficult imo, but TD3 is just riding AIS in right order. It's the problem of not knowing the strategy of TD, I think. Tagging enemies, riding AIS, shooting down air crafts..etc. I can't force them to read the how to. The only thing I can do is suggest, like, we need 2 AIS' in this wave, somebody plz. Some times our room get 2 AIS', sometimes 0. lol

When it comes to Magatsu, I'm not sure but the severe lag is making the situation worse, I think. Never seen a failure these days and can't understand why people quit the quest. You have to start from 0 if you quit and that's not efficient. If you are really concerned with the clear time, join a party(if you feel organizing a room is too much). It makes your run much more predictable and promising. With decent 4 players, it is much more easier to win in good time(or at least you can alleviate the pain and you have partners to talk about how garbage the room was). If you are talking about VITA blocks, well.. I don't have a word to say...

For those people, sitting back and watching the others fighting, it's totally beyond my understanding. Is that fun? Is that efficient? Why the guy is playing PSO2? Is there any meaning in playing a game you don't play? I'm not sure if I really want to hear any excuse from those kind of people.

Finally, (more off topic! sorry again!) I know it's a pain, and you need a place to moan, but it's a different matter from being kind. Being kind is how you want to live and it is how you want to play PSO2(in this context). I won't force it to you since it's just my personal belief. :3

TaigaUC
Aug 15, 2015, 10:11 AM
Everything is elitist to people who don't want to improve themselves.
They don't care to know any better, they don't want to try.
It's basically a fancy way of saying they can't be bothered and you're a terrible person for caring.

The systems are in the game for a reason.
They don't assume players are going to sit on their hands and do nothing.
Though it's SEGA's fault the systems are so shit that most people don't want to do it.

yoshiblue
Aug 15, 2015, 10:12 AM
[SPOILER-BOX]Gave it a bit more thought, and the general reason why SEGA gives special attention to katana braver is simple, and something I came to a conclusion about for over a year ago; if katanas come up short in either mobbing or bossing, people will go back to Fi/Hu. It has happened already at braver release.

Why did it happen, and why could it happen again? A combination of Fi and Hu is superior at using any striking weapon that isn't a katana over Br/Xx. If you must resort to using a weapon other than the katana to deal with either mobbing, or bossing, you may as well use it as Fi/Hu, or Hu/Fi for superior damage, and pick one of their bossing weapons of choice to compliment it.

What exactly happened with katana braver during episode 2 release? Br/Hu was preferred to deal as much damage as possible with a katanas. Katanas had strong mobbing ability, but total trash at boss killing. Hunter weapons were already good at mobbing at the time, so katanas were pretty redundant in their role as Br/Hu. The result for many was to go back to Fi/Hu to have the superior bossing weapons of Fi, and deal more damage with the usual lambda aristin/patty lumeria for mooks.

^ That is likely why SEGA gives special attention to katanas every now and again. It's why katanas are intentionally designed to be so well-rounded; katanas just cannot be allowed to have a glaring weakness, or else braver entirely loses its place as a potential melee class worth using over Fi/Hu combos.



Only thing questionable at times is the degree of power they give to katanas, and when they do it. The buffs coming after kazan nadeshiko zero, and guren-tessen has even me thinking "maybe that's overkill"... but then again, the buffs are katana gear-centric, so it's can't be that absurd... right...?[/SPOILER-BOX]

I'm honestly not sure how to feel about katana being the Ryu of PSO2. Then again, i'm a gladius/kopis kind of guy. So that may be why.

Chdata
Aug 15, 2015, 11:20 AM
No single win after GGLQ? Really? That's a real pain!

TD2 is something difficult imo, but TD3 is just riding AIS in right order. It's the problem of not knowing the strategy of TD, I think. Tagging enemies, riding AIS, shooting down air crafts..etc. I can't force them to read the how to. The only thing I can do is suggest, like, we need 2 AIS' in this wave, somebody plz. Some times our room get 2 AIS', sometimes 0. lol

When it comes to Magatsu, I'm not sure but the severe lag is making the situation worse, I think. Never seen a failure these days and can't understand why people quit the quest. You have to start from 0 if you quit and that's not efficient. If you are really concerned with the clear time, join a party(if you feel organizing a room is too much). It makes your run much more predictable and promising. With decent 4 players, it is much more easier to win in good time(or at least you can alleviate the pain and you have partners to talk about how garbage the room was). If you are talking about VITA blocks, well.. I don't have a word to say...

For those people, sitting back and watching the others fighting, it's totally beyond my understanding. Is that fun? Is that efficient? Why the guy is playing PSO2? Is there any meaning in playing a game you don't play? I'm not sure if I really want to hear any excuse from those kind of people.

Finally, (more off topic! sorry again!) I know it's a pain, and you need a place to moan, but it's a different matter from being kind. Being kind is how you want to live and it is how you want to play PSO2(in this context). I won't force it to you since it's just my personal belief. :3



magatsu isn't as bad - I usually get at least 2 runs before the final.



But holy shit TD3.

Chdata
Aug 15, 2015, 11:32 AM
Granted, they also happened to do it in 6:51, but with much better gear and without NPCs so spawn density was lower. Par time seems to be 11-13mins, usually without NPCs and with 12* and above so I feel like I'm on the OK side using a crafted 10*.

If they're clearing it that much faster, despite having less spawns (less points), that says something too.

How hard would you say you were trying to aim/position/overall in your GuBo video?

Because in my FoTe/BrHu videos, I wasn't trying much at all, the only time I cared about positioning mostly was to sakura the heads of giants when they kneel over, and it was overall quite casual. I missed tons of JA too. More or less used PAs randomly as Br.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09ceBWLbUs

edit: A day later I don't know why the fote video never rendered eh.

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZzI7LsbxOM

I guess my YT got unverified and rejected the length of the vid lol.

Etherwolf
Aug 15, 2015, 12:28 PM
So, I was directed to this thread to talk about possible changes to Gunner and what everyone thinks about those possible changes and such! I'll just c&p what I said in my other thread:

"
Hi-hii~, my fellow ARKS! It's your favorite operative/butler, Etherwolf! Today I come at you with a serious question, but let me provide you with a bit of context:

I've been playing PSO2 for a short while now, and though I've tried various classes and weapons, I've focused on the Gunner class. I'm around level 40-something. I forget. (again, I've been dabbling in various classes and weapons)

Having looked into the basics of the class on various sights (including this one) and having extensive use of the class and it's main weapons, Twin Machine Guns, a constant question has come to mind...

Why does it feel like the Gunner is meant to be a close-range firearms class yet it doesn't function as such?

I didn't really put much thought into it on my own, but am I the only one who thinks Gunner needs a complete rework? I think it'd be fun if it was actually turned into that close to mid range class it was meant to be. It has a skill tree focused on close range damage, so shouldn't there be close range photon arts? Granted, ANY of the photon arts could be utilized at close range; I just feel like there should be some (USEFUL) PA's that are used specifically for the melee range.

Now, I know what you're probably thinking at this point. "They're machine pistols. HOW could they be used close range??"

We're talking about a world of science fiction and fantasy, people. Use your imagination! There could be shockwaves that function like shotgun blasts (Think of the Scatter Gun from the Jak series). There could be quick evasive maneuvers around targets. Or, you could be a true weeb and use your guns like Kid Death from the Soul Eater series, or even like Christian Bale in Equilibrium...though, not to such a melee extent. No point in having infinite ammo guns if you're just gonna beat people with em, am I right?

Anywho, discuss! I wanna know what everyone thinks about the current Gunner setup. Is it just a closer range Ranger? Does it need a complete rework that focuses on it being a close-range and evasive firearms specialist? Or do you think it's in the right spot for now? Hell, if you think it's ok but just need a few tweaks here and there is a fine opinion to have!"

Nitro Vordex
Aug 15, 2015, 12:35 PM
Er. It is a close range class. Everything about it is meant to be close range.

Etherwolf
Aug 15, 2015, 12:40 PM
It feels really mid-range to me, honestly. Like, you have no requirement whatsoever to ever get closer than max attack range? And even in the off chance that you are closer, you just back up with the shift thingy.

Edito: The effective attack range of Twin Machine Guns is from the steps from the camp ship all the way to the other side of the room, which seems REALLY long for a "close range" class...see what I'm getting at?

GoldenFalcon
Aug 15, 2015, 12:47 PM
Like, you have no requirement whatsoever to ever get closer than max attack range?

Edito: The effective attack range of Twin Machine Guns is from the steps from the camp ship all the way to the other side of the room, which seems REALLY long for a "close range" class...see what I'm getting at?

Normal attacks and Elder Rebellion make the class extreeeemely boring. I use the term Safe Rebellion as an insult to pride

When you use PA's such as Aerial Shooting, Bullet Squall, Dead Approach, Messiah Time, Satellite Aim, Reverse Tap, Shift Period, or Grim Barrage, max attack range IS point blank.

Infinite Fire and Heel Stab fit in the pansy-far-range category, but Heel Stab is basically a point blank PA as well.

Don't use TMG like a onepoint rifle.

TehCubey
Aug 15, 2015, 12:58 PM
You can attack the enemy from max range, sure. But is that really playing the way this class is meant to be played?

Please read this (http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%88%E3%83%B3%E3% 82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%84%2F%E3%83%84%E3%82%A4%E3%83 %B3%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B7%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AC%E3%83%B3%E 7%B3%BB) page. Scroll down to the DPS table:

Elder Rebellion: 489 DPS
Satellite Aim: 868 DPS

Any questions?

yoshiblue
Aug 15, 2015, 01:05 PM
To me its an evasion tank. Close range, dodges for days, with two skills that relies on not getting hit to see the reset chance and damage.

GoldenFalcon
Aug 15, 2015, 01:06 PM
Elder Rebellion: 489 DPS
Satellite Aim: 868 DPS

Any questions?

There's another thing

when you use Elder Rebellion, Infinite Fire, or normal attacks from more than 2 diverolls away from an enemy (basically using them like you're utilizing sharpshooter), you do -20% damage.

TaigaUC
Aug 15, 2015, 01:10 PM
Gunner ought to be mid-range, but they made it close-range. So, whatever.

They should add a Photon Art named Sean Bean where you put a book on the enemy's face and then blow its head off.
Pun not intended, but acknowledged.

GoldenFalcon
Aug 15, 2015, 01:11 PM
Pun not intended, but acknowledged.

what pun

TaigaUC
Aug 15, 2015, 01:14 PM
Shhh!

Etherwolf
Aug 15, 2015, 01:15 PM
Ahh~. I see what you're getting at. It felt like elder was the strongest pa gunner had. Or maybe that's just the initial numbers speaking to me. Thinking about it that way though, "Playing the way the class should be played instead of playing the class with what you're offered", it feels even more awkward to me.

How do you guys usually play Gunner? With what PA setup and such?

TehCubey
Aug 15, 2015, 01:43 PM
PA's numeric values show total damage, but what you're interested in is DPS. A PA with 4000% base damage is useless if it takes a minute to execute.

In general damage you deal at low levels is so high compared to enemy HP that everything dies very quickly, so it's hard to judge which PAs/technics are good and which are crap. At least that's the case if you have a decent weapon, and most people do. Bad design but - blame Sega. Leveling up to SH (when it becomes noticeable) takes little time anyway.

There's a whole subforum (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45) for gameplay advice, they even have a gunner thread.

Etherwolf
Aug 15, 2015, 02:03 PM
I might've already seen it.

Does anyone think the Gunner class needs a rework? Some of what the Gunner offers seems...weird. I'm not entirely sure how to explain it.

ZynischQ
Aug 15, 2015, 02:09 PM
I might've already seen it.

Does anyone think the Gunner class needs a rework? Some of what the Gunner offers seems...weird. I'm not entirely sure how to explain it.

Half of the people in the thread not arguing about elitism are talking about how gunner needs a rework.

TehCubey
Aug 15, 2015, 02:57 PM
The fact this thread exists is proof that Gu needs a rework.

LunaSolstice
Aug 15, 2015, 04:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvDjq_rf-o

That was fun to watch lol

jooozek
Aug 15, 2015, 04:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvDjq_rf-o

That was fun to watch lol

let's not forget (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226677)

milranduil
Aug 15, 2015, 04:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvDjq_rf-o

That was fun to watch lol

cool vid, but pre-nerf chain with banish, rip.

[Ayumi]
Aug 15, 2015, 06:14 PM
Everything is elitist to people who don't want to improve themselves.
They don't care to know any better, they don't want to try.
It's basically a fancy way of saying they can't be bothered and you're a terrible person for caring.

The systems are in the game for a reason.
They don't assume players are going to sit on their hands and do nothing.
Though it's SEGA's fault the systems are so shit that most people don't want to do it.

I say elitist lost it's definition because of people using it wrongfully. Same with newb and noob.
Elitist is pretty much someone being snotty and boasting and show-offy about their skills to those that aren't as skills as them.

Someone that knows something and willing to show someone that don't know the ropes while being collective I say isn't an elitist.
And any that call them an elitist don't know what they're talking about.

Selphea
Aug 15, 2015, 06:55 PM
If they're clearing it that much faster, despite having less spawns (less points), that says something too.

How hard would you say you were trying to aim/position/overall in your GuBo video?

I wouldn't say it's effort as much as familiarity and optimization. After I saw that video I could tell where I wasn't being optimal.

The biggest difference is the gear gap. Their damage as Gu/Ra is around a third higher than my damage as Gu/Ra using crafted Dark Yas9k with 70 ATK affixes. They're likely using a non-welfare 13* with >100 ATK affixes (either Skull or Ares). I don't think it shows whether that player was using Shifta Drink or Weak Drink, so I can't tell which one exactly. If it's Skull though, that's a huge gap in map familiarity too since that's the TMGs I'm farming in Kuron.

Based on the gear gap, 6:51 would be impossible for me, an 8:30 to 9:00 clear might be a more realistic target. I could lower the gap by 1% by getting my Yas9k to Ex11 but it makes more sense to go straight for the 13*.

Another thing is they skipped non E-Codes which I really need to do more often.

Also as mentioned, I need to work on a strategy for cars and struggle less with buttons for Zigmor. That Zigmor was much slower than my normal Zigmors. In general, some situations I use Bullet Squall instead of Sat Aim which loses DPS too.

So essentially I consider it more of an optimization/gear gap than a build gap. Even if I ran Gu/Ra in there right now (which I did), I'd still not be able get near 6:51 yet, but it's something to work towards.

Etherwolf
Aug 16, 2015, 02:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCvDjq_rf-o

That was fun to watch lol

WHAT ARE THOOOOOOSE NUMBERS

I keep forgetting that PSO2 is an MMO and there's only so much you're able to capably do with any given class arrangement.

Dammy
Aug 16, 2015, 02:40 AM
What's sadder is people calling other people out on their playstyle in a purely PvE game.

Everything is viable in PvE. Everything.

go back to your fucking dota

(Idola)
Aug 16, 2015, 09:35 AM
Soooo...sorry if this is already buried in the 25 pages, but on the link in the OP, does it state this is happening in August of this year? Or something else?

My Japanese blows.

Bellion
Aug 16, 2015, 10:52 AM
It just says from August and after, so it could be happening this month but nothing is set.

Etherwolf
Aug 16, 2015, 02:14 PM
Soooo...sorry if this is already buried in the 25 pages, but on the link in the OP, does it state this is happening in August of this year? Or something else?

My Japanese blows.

I've been looking at it repeatedly to make sure google Translate isn't screwing everything up. Yes, it only says August, and I'm assuming the "upwards" is referring to "buffing" Braver and Gunner.

Kokurokoki
Aug 16, 2015, 09:15 PM
go back to your fucking dota

Your salt shall be used to season my french fries. :-P

ArcaneTechs
Aug 24, 2015, 02:22 AM
I remember reading that Perfect Keeper was going to change to have 75% HP or more to keep the 20% Damage Bonus applied, I noticed lately that you still need to have 100% full hp for it so you guys think this is something that be applied or no? Sakai or Suganuma or whoever mentioned it in the past and I can't find the page for this info so I figured this may be applied this time around