PSO2's engine?

[Nitro Vordex]

I remember reading that the engine was rather old, circa 2008. I can't find the link or article to prove that though. Does anybody have a link for that, or has worked with the game to know what engine it is?

[untrustful]

Google search yields talk of it using an old game engine (hedgehog engine?) but I get no dates.

[Kokurokoki]

A lot of games these days are made with engines nearly decades old.

Halo 5 still runs on the same engine used to make Halo 1 according to the devs, it's just been massively improved but I believe the source code has always been the same.

Not sure how old the PSO2 engine is, but I remember people saying that it was the same engine used in PSU on the PSP.

[TaigaUC]

I thought PSO2's engine was developed in-house. Whatever it is, it looks and feels old and outdated.
Visually, it can't compare to games like B&S and TERA, which were developed in 2011 (before PSO2). Those games use engines like Unreal and CryEngine.
Mabinogi Heroes (Vindictus), which was released in 2010, uses a modified version of Valve's Source engine, and also looks better than PSO2.

But PSO2 not looking great isn't just an engine issue.
It's clearly designed for lower-end machines, or for compatibility with Vita. It does not feel very optimized.
Texture size in general seems inconsistent, and environment textures don't seem very high-res. Last I checked, their compression also looked awful.
The 3d models are generally low poly, and characters sometimes have strange anatomy issues.
Characters seem to have less skeletal bones than other games (especially in the hands).
Facial expressions are also simple, and the physics have minimal collision (eg. hair doesn't collide with body).
Mabinogi Heroes has PSO2-ish physics, but they at least put simple collision volumes on the body to minimize hair going through the body.
PSO2 doesn't seem to care as much about that. Although, the flip side is we get lots more fun accessories.

One thing that really shits me is they couldn't be bothered putting proper collision on My Room items.
That stuff is not hard to do. Some engines like Unreal come with automatic mesh-based collision.
Although, the last time I checked, automatic collision tends to make you get stuck on the edges of those objects.

[Skornedemon]

[SPOILER-BOX]
I thought PSO2's engine was developed in-house. Whatever it is, it looks and feels old and outdated.
Visually, it can't compare to games like B&S and TERA, which were developed in 2011 (before PSO2). Those games use engines like Unreal and CryEngine.
Mabinogi Heroes (Vindictus), which was released in 2010, uses a modified version of Valve's Source engine, and also looks better than PSO2.

But PSO2 not looking great isn't just an engine issue.
It's clearly designed for lower-end machines, or for compatibility with Vita. It does not feel very optimized.
Texture size in general seems inconsistent, and environment textures don't seem very high-res. Last I checked, their compression also looked awful.
The 3d models are generally low poly, and characters sometimes have strange anatomy issues.
Characters seem to have less skeletal bones than other games (especially in the hands).
Facial expressions are also simple, and the physics have minimal collision (eg. hair doesn't collide with body).
Mabinogi Heroes has PSO2-ish physics, but they at least put simple collision volumes on the body to minimize hair going through the body.
PSO2 doesn't seem to care as much about that.

Almost everything you just listed is why pso2 is quite optimized. A computer from 2005 can run it pretty decent. Even on max graphics PSO2 is a pretty game.

Understand it from a game development perspective.

You can have up to 12 players, all with HIGHLY customizable looks,from accessories(also models) to colors to mags to whatever.

Those up to 12 players can do a ton of different attacks,all of which generate effects. Some more than others. Those 12 players are generally DECENTLY synced with one another.

Outside of JUST the players, PSO2 can have a ton of mobs. All of which can be infected(more effects),have various attacks all of which also generate effects. Going to bosses... they're generally much higher poly count, and can be inside these huge mob pits(looking at you atrocious ocean). Ive seen up to 6 bosses on the map at once,while the huge mob pit was going on.(3 rock bears,fang banther/banshee,and varda soma).

Going to textures, while not 4k textures or something silly like that, they're roughly 256x256(background) or greater(foreground), depending.

And all of this,can run on a Vita. While PSO2 isn't graphically up to par with,say,Black Desert, it does it's job just as well of not better than others. Also nearly any PC can run the darn thing.

Black Desert you need quite the rig to even run it,and even then, you're going to lag. Quality over Quanitity, the never ending battle.[/SPOILER-BOX]

TL;DR : PSO2 is pretty optimized and holds its own for the type of game it is and for how much stuff is usually happening in the game.

[landman]

I wish lightning and weather effects could give it more realism, Magatsu is too bright compared to the nighty opening. Stage design also lack realism, it's obviously the price to pay to have randomly generated maps, but in some natural environments it works worse than others (rivers usually form... in a valley, not in a mesh). And field of view should be improved... I don't care if breakable trees that respawn appear when I'm close enough for them to spawn, but why can't I see that huge structure that's permanent on the Ruins map unless I'm about to reach it? map is not generated on the go... only spawnable entities.

[EvilMag]

considering fingers don't bend and feet look like shit I'm convinced its running on the Sonic Adventure engine.

[Zyrusticae]

Gotta note here that asset quality (including shaders) have very little to do with the engine and everything to do with the game's hardware target (in this case, the PS Vita and low-end laptops with integrated graphics). They could have used the same engine to push WAY more polygons and more complex shaders. There's nothing stopping them from doing so from a technical perspective. What is stopping them is, obviously, the cost of losing those customers that are playing on low-end machines.

Now, as technology has advanced quite a bit since the game's initial launch, it is possible for them to do a bit of a shader overhaul the way Aion did. And the nice thing about shader overhauls is that it can be completely optional, especially if most of the shaders don't affect the actual assets. Better motion blur (Crysis-level, at least), better lighting and shadowing, more particle effects, and so on and so forth, are all possible without touching any of the low-end machines, simply by making them options rather than a part of the baseline.

But, in all honesty, they're probably not gonna bother. They're just too damn cheap to do something like that.

[Mattykins]

I wouldn't even care that much if GameGuard didn't block shader injectors and stuff. :T It also irks me that there's apparently software that can edit textures (hence the nude patch) but there aren't any high-res texture mods. Fuck, I can't stand looking at some of the surfaces.

[Zyrusticae]

Ah, don't remind me. Friggin' Gameguard and its unnecessarily draconian injection prevention.

If only someone could figure out why Radeonpro works undetected and got it to work with Reshade... that would be nice...

[Kokurokoki]

I thought PSO2's engine was developed in-house. Whatever it is, it looks and feels old and outdated.
Visually, it can't compare to games like B&S and TERA, which were developed in 2011 (before PSO2). Those games use engines like Unreal and CryEngine.
Mabinogi Heroes (Vindictus), which was released in 2010, uses a modified version of Valve's Source engine, and also looks better than PSO2.

But PSO2 not looking great isn't just an engine issue.
It's clearly designed for lower-end machines, or for compatibility with Vita. It does not feel very optimized.
Texture size in general seems inconsistent, and environment textures don't seem very high-res. Last I checked, their compression also looked awful.
The 3d models are generally low poly, and characters sometimes have strange anatomy issues.
Characters seem to have less skeletal bones than other games (especially in the hands).
Facial expressions are also simple, and the physics have minimal collision (eg. hair doesn't collide with body).
Mabinogi Heroes has PSO2-ish physics, but they at least put simple collision volumes on the body to minimize hair going through the body.
PSO2 doesn't seem to care as much about that. Although, the flip side is we get lots more fun accessories.

One thing that really shits me is they couldn't be bothered putting proper collision on My Room items.
That stuff is not hard to do. Some engines like Unreal come with automatic mesh-based collision.
Although, the last time I checked, automatic collision tends to make you get stuck on the edges of those objects.

I have to agree with Skorned. While PSO2 isn't on par with say... Witcher 3 or Bloodborne... it is extremely well optimized considering the fact that you can have up to 12 players with different costumes and accessories (all of which have their own jigglebones) running around in a game that throws up to a hundred mobs at you.

The engine does show its age. Some of the costumes are rather low-poly. But the character rendering itself is extremely well done, and some of the newer costumes, notably the ARKS ones, have very high-res textures. The characters also don't have any finger posing, but that's hardly noticeable in a game like PSO2 where you probably aren't focusing too much on what your character's hands are doing.

[Shinamori]

Pretty sure PSO2 uses a modified version of the Hedgehog Engine which actually just a graphics engine.

[Squal_FFVIII]

I always thought this game used the same engine that PSU did since it doesn't look much better than PSU >_<

Like some of you have already said though, it's clear that it was meant to run on the Vita and on toaster PC's.

I do wish PSO2 looked much better atleast on par with TERA graphics.

[Sizustar]

I always thought this game used the same engine that PSU did since it doesn't look much better than PSU >_<

Like some of you have already said though, it's clear that it was meant to run on the Vita and on toaster PC's.

I do wish PSO2 looked much better atleast on par with TERA graphics.

We'll see with the Episode 4 PSO2 Reborn on PS4,

[[Ayumi]]

I always thought it was an altered/modified engine of PSU.
As PSU's engine was 1st altered/modified for PSP, then for PSP2 which it gotten much better, then in PSP2i which it got even better from PSP2, and then from PSP2i they give it a huge alteration which has became PSO2.

[Rayden]

PSO2 looks pretty good in my opinion. I don't understand why people are saying Tera looks better. I tried Tera (briefly) on max settings and it was terribly ugly. On top of that, it was very poorly optimized giving me low FPS on my high end system. You guys are talking about this Tera (http://torrentsgames.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/TERA-PC.jpg), right?

[Zyrusticae]

Tera, ugly? Hmmmm. First I've heard of that.

Generally speaking, Tera's environments are much less flat-looking than PSO2's.

I mean, if Forest looked more like this, I think you'd be seeing much fewer complaints:
[spoiler-box]
https://5k0cxa.bay.livefilestore.com/y3pv37k6lAX-Pyo-G-Ife0gHSqsbgUfK7Lib558vBQ7sVY5Y5IeFRjPVq03WGGIGj3Lu ZzAHju1MyQd1wKudww8iwKo1RaY2-atVxWAPGF8vEgyCpMKHCz8bIpJkkfU4H1B/Screenshot18464.jpg?psid=1
https://5k0cxa.bay.livefilestore.com/y3piEUCKhxzY7bTSHzhQVQeVEKv90znjR31VWL-ho3yJYnbpo_tA-RPOHIuM9-NIKXCasfPK9kd_0-GB3WBh2noNnWmsEZu4PJVTIyY1BtVj-ys3nD6ossCAjW2P2yONnv4/Screenshot50812.jpg?psid=1
https://5k0cxa-dm2306.files.1drv.com/y3pWPcatF2HCzOfwzdV90h6_mTrZhCRxHbT6ApcXo4DWKMuUNw Ai7d8NgSRUIz3iTfJxmQNrXUEtZIiblnMtXPygKotbGLusVHUn 0TGRLYjkZzbiCCdmea6O5HKxxAs1FEB/Screenshot75773.jpg?psid=1[/spoiler-box]

To be fair, there's only so much you can do with random generation... but that's still no excuse for environments to be completely bland and boring to look at.

The desert in particular is a major offender. It's so boring to look at it hurts, especially next to a place like Thanalan (from FFXIV):
[spoiler-box]Yes, I went overboard on the bloom and CA. I apologize on behalf of my past self.

https://in4hkg-dm2306.files.1drv.com/y3p8CHlw1CPGtrJNCgSJDtU8vCFoUMfAuPTKWq_uFRRMguGnZv ROnC3uSWP9XkLWcrH4EpP4g6vUwJ4u-rGM_Hc8XLOsWbCZ-Yn1ERhKM4FM0Fqxv5rt5j4uI3tHc7vve1J/ffxiv.exe_DX9_20140711_183452.jpg?psid=1
https://in4hkg-dm2306.files.1drv.com/y3p7lIAftXPvshDk-3i1y5lSL9Q4Owy1gQqgQd8U9nOJ9orWHHh5xCFsF2tocaYNNDk fmdBfB9bLYPp_fROdz2wGKMwlChvjdly1JC_gS52Juoo5zK8r_ VD7__rQLLSoiMI/ffxiv.exe_DX9_20140914_042738.jpg?psid=1[/spoiler-box]

[Qualia]

The desert in particular is a major offender. It's so boring to look at it hurts, especially next to a place like Thanalan (from FFXIV)


Hey, Southern Thanalan though..
[SPOILER-BOX]http://images.mmorpg.com/images/galleries/full/522013/e4859e38-5baa-49f6-93db-b50df882a951.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

[HentaiLolicon]

TERA's engine sucks for MMO, you can get your 120fps down to half just with 2-3 other players around, and on average rig, 60fps in town with lot of people around is impossible

[Qualia]

TERA's engine sucks for MMO, you can get your 120fps down to half just with 2-3 other players around, and on average rig, 60fps in town with lot of people around is impossible

The difference between 60fps and 120fps is honestly negligible. Also most people with an average rig would probably be fine with anything over 30.

[HentaiLolicon]

The difference between 60fps and 120fps is honestly negligible. Also most people with an average rig would probably be fine with anything over 30.
The point is that Unreal engine is not good for MMO, during Nexus in NA TERA, at above normal setting you still can't achieve 30fps even on 1280x1024, with gtx760 20fps or lower are common at lowest setting. But, whatever i stopped playing it already.

[Zyrusticae]

Hey, Southern Thanalan though..
[SPOILER-BOX]http://images.mmorpg.com/images/galleries/full/522013/e4859e38-5baa-49f6-93db-b50df882a951.png[/SPOILER-BOX]
Still a better looking place than the current travesty of (non-)design that is Lilipa, at least.

[spoiler-box]And this is a screenshot with SGSSAA, SweetFX, and driver AO...
https://58fzgg.by3301.livefilestore.com/y3pRsWPtC7By7yYJyfEfNlxJJO9STOQtWhV4iQngZpWuzqznB4 OhWANRCNLkShiB949Fhnvrpst4sneewIWmeaCkerg3J58f1U1c yFQ27l4hhxmDI5wWqA6439CYISfIYrq/pso20121229_203726_000.png?psid=1[/spoiler-box]

[Rayden]

The difference between 60fps and 120fps is honestly negligible. Also most people with an average rig would probably be fine with anything over 30.

Honestly, it's not. Since upgrading to 120 Hz/FPS a year ago I refuse to play games in 60 FPS now. It's very jerky and flickery compared to 120 FPS, and 30 FPS is just horrific. It makes such a noticeable difference that I choose to lower quality settings if necessary in order to hit 120 FPS.

[Valimer]

[SPOILER-BOX]

Almost everything you just listed is why pso2 is quite optimized. A computer from 2005 can run it pretty decent. Even on max graphics PSO2 is a pretty game.

Understand it from a game development perspective.

You can have up to 12 players, all with HIGHLY customizable looks,from accessories(also models) to colors to mags to whatever.

Those up to 12 players can do a ton of different attacks,all of which generate effects. Some more than others. Those 12 players are generally DECENTLY synced with one another.

Outside of JUST the players, PSO2 can have a ton of mobs. All of which can be infected(more effects),have various attacks all of which also generate effects. Going to bosses... they're generally much higher poly count, and can be inside these huge mob pits(looking at you atrocious ocean). Ive seen up to 6 bosses on the map at once,while the huge mob pit was going on.(3 rock bears,fang banther/banshee,and varda soma).

Going to textures, while not 4k textures or something silly like that, they're roughly 256x256(background) or greater(foreground), depending.

And all of this,can run on a Vita. While PSO2 isn't graphically up to par with,say,Black Desert, it does it's job just as well of not better than others. Also nearly any PC can run the darn thing.

Black Desert you need quite the rig to even run it,and even then, you're going to lag. Quality over Quanitity, the never ending battle.[/SPOILER-BOX]

TL;DR : PSO2 is pretty optimized and holds its own for the type of game it is and for how much stuff is usually happening in the game.

i have personal experience modelling, UVing and texturing 3D models using maya and photoshop and I can attest that the environment is pretty mediocre

let's be honest, the environments suck on a technical scale. Conceptually they are pretty freakin awesome but like mentioned before, inconsistent texture scaling and an obscurely low poly count for some models just sticks out really bad, especially in juxtaposition with the character models and textures.

is it worth it in order for the game to play on toasters? Not really, stretched textures has nothing to do with performance, and it's worth the extra polygons to get the silhouette distinguishable.

[TaigaUC]

In crowded areas, PSO2 takes a long time to load all the different costumes and accessories, and I have a powerful PC.
Ever entered an area and seen all those generic placeholder models? That used to happen a lot in PSU as well. It feels like a console thing to me.
I don't remember having those issues with Blade and Soul (or any other recent game), and the models and textures in that are much higher quality.
I don't think there's a limit to the number of players onscreen in BnS, either.
Although, the variation in BnS is nowhere near as high as PSO2.

Ever wondered why it takes so long to exit from campship or enter blocks sometimes?
Because it's loading all the visual data. I can't recall how often it needs to refresh this data, though.
The other reason it takes a while to load blocks is if other people are moving blocks at the same time, which is a block system design issue.

Well, another thing to note is that BnS also looks like utter rubbish at minimal performance settings.
It runs pretty decently at minimal performance, though.


i have personal experience modelling, UVing and texturing 3D models using maya and photoshop and I can attest that the environment is pretty mediocre

Same here. I've also messed around and made stuff for UDK, as well as modded tons of other games for many years.
So, I have a sorta decent idea of these things, although I don't feel confident to say I'm any kind of expert.
PSO2 just doesn't feel optimized to me.

[HentaiLolicon]

Slow loading can be related with slow network, and uhmm, HDD, i haven't put PSO2 on my SDD to test yet but it might be a part of that, however, IMO pso2 engine is doing well for MMO

[landman]

I have it on an SSD and loads as slow as a normal HD when the lobby is involved.

[Rupikachu]

Slow loading can be related with slow network, and uhmm, HDD, i haven't put PSO2 on my SDD to test yet but it might be a part of that, however, IMO pso2 engine is doing well for MMO

^ + its quite related to the insane amount of costumes, hairs and accesories the game has nowadays

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, that reminds me, loading the accessories list in the Este Counter takes a while now too.
It never used to take that long before.

@HentaiLolicon
TERA uses CryEngine, if I'm not mistaken.

[HentaiLolicon]

Unreal 3 if we are talking about that TERA online

[ThePSOVeteran]

One thing I noticed is rain effects are so horribly optimized in this game. Granted, I'm on a toaster, i can't deny that, but I even seen people with better machines in an MPA having bad lag, slowdown, etc..in rain based settings in EQs.

[Sizustar]

One thing I noticed is rain effects are so horribly optimized in this game. Granted, I'm on a toaster, i can't deny that, but I even seen people with better machines in an MPA having bad lag, slowdown, etc..in rain based settings in EQs.

Because they don't put a cap on the partcile, so if you have alot of FO casting Tech, or people using Photon Blast, everyone freeze.

[ThePSOVeteran]

Which sucks for everyone involved. i just don't do many EQs anymore as most of them involve rain (BW3/driving rain/any ocean MPAs) or have tight corridors (mothership). I still do elder/luther/magatsu/TD1-3/all the good Exp/drops ones.

[Touka]

The engine for PSO 2 is horribly dated,there's no denying that.I'm hoping that they use a completely new engine for Reborn.

I'm not expecting A Realm Reborn quality but at least make it more modern for crying out loud.

[Sizustar]

The engine for PSO 2 is horribly dated,there's no denying that.I'm hoping that they use a completely new engine for Reborn.

I'm not expecting A Realm Reborn quality but at least make it more modern for crying out loud.

Well, if Sony is actually helping with the transfer to PS4, then maybe we might get some improvement, although PS4 uses a version of Open GL, not DX...

Wonder how that will affect it.

[Zyrusticae]

The sad thing about the particle effect slowdown is that it's a really easy fix. All they have to do is push the particle clipping zone further out from the camera so that particles don't clip against the screen (which results in MASSIVE overdraw and obviously sends the framerate to a crawl on any machine). It's one of the easiest things you can do and also one of the first optimizations that should be made in any case. But for some reason, they never do it. I don't know why. Ignorance, perhaps?

Someone in the know should explain this to them... preferably in more detail than I can.

[Sizustar]

The sad thing about the particle effect slowdown is that it's a really easy fix. All they have to do is push the particle clipping zone further out from the camera so that particles don't clip against the screen (which results in MASSIVE overdraw and obviously sends the framerate to a crawl on any machine). It's one of the easiest things you can do and also one of the first optimizations that should be made in any case. But for some reason, they never do it. I don't know why. Ignorance, perhaps?

Someone in the know should explain this to them... preferably in more detail than I can.

We'll see if Sony actually send anyone to help with the PS4 "reborn" project.
Sony's own internal team is pretty good at their stuff.

[Qualia]

Why has nobody brought up how bad the draw distance is for objects? You literally cannot see anything that is more than one grid distance away from you, and there's no option to change this.

[kazuuya]

Hahah Sega's vision of good LOD. They probably thought why waste time and money to solve it properly when they can just instead make everything that is far infront of the player invisible!

Honestly it has always bothered me personally that the characters don't have fully rigged hands, let's just glue the fingers together. Generally the whole character rig isn't really the yellow of the egg, the vertex weighting is so weird... When I see things like this it really makes me wonder.
[SPOILER-BOX]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMukxORUwAAWHkc.png:large[/SPOILER-BOX]

[shagia]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/BAtLkvz.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
had to check my settings after I took this screenshot, thought I was playing on low for a second

http://i.imgur.com/GpjMLEz.png

that is one nasty ass texture, and I definitely don't wanna see it on compressed settings, haha

[TaigaUC]

Oh yeah, the draw distance. I complained about that a long time ago.
Stuff in PSO 2 vanishes at such a close range.

I was gonna say that PSO2 sometimes looks better with visual quality on low.
The lighting makes some things look better, but in general is not very good use of lighting.

Sega + Sony reminds me of how terrible a job Sega did with porting Bayonetta to PS3.


Unreal 3 if we are talking about that TERA online

You're right. Sorry about that.
It was AION that uses Cryengine.

[ThePSOVeteran]

OMG those hands..that may be as bad as Guild Wars 2's hands. Can anyone do a comparison?

[Zyrusticae]

[...] When I see things like this it really makes me wonder.
[SPOILER-BOX]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMukxORUwAAWHkc.png:large[/SPOILER-BOX]
To be fair, that's more of an oversight by the animator than a problem with the rigging or model. You're not really supposed to pay attention to details like that during fast animations so they let it slide (though it certainly would be nice if they caught things like this).

[Qualia]

Also reflections look super disgusting.

[Mattykins]

I noticed specifically in cutscenes, my main's sleeves liked to go apeshit, either folding up in strange ways then suddenly correcting themselves, or clipping awkwardly in ways I don't see in actual gameplay. It's weird :V

[Skornedemon]

[SPOILER-BOX]They stated "hardware limitations" for why hands don't have bones in them. Seriously.
If every Gamecube game I remember playing (aside from SADX-- even SA2 stepped it up) had more complex skeletons than you're pushing here, Sega, I don't know what you're expecting me to be playing with. A Genesis? Wait, no, Sonic's hands moved there.

I started PSO2 with a computer that wasn't very high-end from 2007. It ran decently with minimum everything, but the moment I turned the "good" shader on, it slowed to a crawl. That was not unreasonable. Those settings exist so that low-end computers can run it. Higher graphic settings should exist for people who can run it at those settings. They shouldn't be trying to make it so everyone can run it at max, 'cause that just makes the max look like shit. At the very least, there should be options for higher res textures. The current "high" is some times actually outdone by PSU. At least most of the time, PSU didn't have the horrible artifacts that CAST parts seem to display like badges of honor.

There's also no excuse for the weather effects doing crap like this when you mess with the camera-- all actions that they programmed to be possible and should have predicted and adjusted for:
[spoiler-box]Rotated 90 degress and the weather overlay didn't rotate with it, so when I rotate the end result to the proper orientation, it's raining sideways.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4GFLvlz_da3WwrHdsoajgsmEllyeD4rqkivi_gYRSqY=w900-h1600-no
Zoomed all the way in and it starts clipping.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/567jX7fPj0KoTRBrxVZ6EqtfOeXvdRaEE_SqWHtFnR8=w1280-h720-no
Zoomed out all the way and its edges showed.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Uq0byrlpW6yS124bwpPq0GZf6-3edT6iReLQJoDD_aE=w1280-h720-no[/spoiler-box]

Aaaand there's no excuse for the horrible skeletons.
[spoiler-box]
My leg.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5yHYoVlx8yudYqv78efLE6bzbCOvwhETz-oKA2IPAt8=w453-h583-no
MY LEG.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/8101f98e16c6194b1acb615e9c92b22e/tumblr_nq417zYp8R1s76ppoo2_1280.jpg
This looks like more than a botfly. Or maybe it's a very low-poly botfly.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/42QPW3TS2TQ9hUg8zymYMiBo05h2gHwCcvSkFYd-aQs=w807-h900-no
Clothes clipping through the body even in pre-programmed cutscenes, both at high res and low res. (Though it tends to do it more in higher res)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5NzWIPLMIr702DxH2D-GgKUqD-PdCPI_5DiHJ5cHzXQ=w1280-h720-no
Accessories that should have more precise collision because they are special. My vain attempt at trying to get it to touch my back.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hVo2AAgq7AK-eBIT-rXPA1FWhzOhu5GnTwNaAri1nSU=w1280-h720-no
What the fuck is wrong with this spine and torso
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FIncssEGUKAnMkjdZlV917IZs2XHyiByz3KnlHM4FPc=w176-h615-no
Ignoring the forced AA and AO glitches in Matoi's hair which are my fault, her eyelids are clipping.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V8tkiGPXvk0GMdl2E-4lbJoO-JZ6PDdrvOX2eppONw0=w1600-h900-no
They didn't even finish this outfit. (I'm doing an ichitaro handstand in the classic maid dress)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SHetbsffIibhIL9PO1_nKC4asj6UKQ1dS_lPspviqBI=w1600-h900-no
My neck goes right through my collar????
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/40Y44Az_BWAALC3IVUSqudvG-pzpGPzjuVz9FKsZwH8=w1600-h900-no
[/spoiler-box]

Among other things.
[spoiler-box]
Collision is a joke.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Bx582fAbTATRx6Q4A6LgoGhLGdiFcaNIWTkgBDQ0RGg=w1280-h720-no
Collision is still a joke.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4US3c16gl5_Q1W-lWVXFFY9pnVifPLucwn7DXFsJqRg=w1366-h768-no
Collision is always a joke.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/64iTluvf1UfhvVLDOEeaHVikO6hHjFo1NJkYW9fIF30=w1280-h720-no
Some of the bloom isn't even touching the objects it's attached to.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jKffGTnRp1zYfKC_gDF1rMkDo2bNjOQ6oIP7OVG9sm8=w606-h843-no
Shadows.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yHej3TKVuHSmqkrQuJqNeeNe_Qxj8NQfAe3lKo33G10=w1280-h720-no
More shadows. Note my shadow is ALL THE WAY IN THE OTHER ROOM WHERE EVEN THE DECOR IS SHOCKED.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zzZLMF7J23-yiQbNC-3MrgybmgRvheC5qKk5rzB75ew=w1366-h768-no
Textured-on boobage.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Yp87GMWDzzPIRCelsznSfeYi9Hn0v1rMRJOoaVUHh98=w1280-h720-no
Some textures actually float above the damn ground.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6CY69Ew6R-utCEsRYIepFCvqmx7GWLCX55bVPVLjTDQ=w1280-h720-no
This outfit bleeding on to the skin. In a very weird way. Look at the belly. --Whoa, actually, now that I look at it more, look at the thigh. The left side part is... what??? Why is it doing that???
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qgcTARTWoBy6H_tDp0h8gUSGYL_v9NlZvf7It4KR5ds=w522-h708-no[/spoiler-box]

All of this is stuff they could have predicted and accounted for. They weren't one-off glitches, they were intentionally overlooked. And these are just some of the ones I've found over the years. I'm sure there's countless more that other people have.

Not pictured because you can't really get pictures of it:
Character models de-rendering behind transparent objects like windows or railings.

Edit:
I forgot a few "ow my arms" and also wtf torso.
[spoiler-box]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rE0__NosRosobz6EhcN4DIaV1k_qjQseEJebM9ShIf4=w1600-h900-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7ktOrlpURMOltTxGcjNi0EZhFzC7EgRXeLePosW2YZI=w1600-h900-no[/spoiler-box][/SPOILER-BOX]

Honestly, I could pick out pictures like this for nearly any other MMO,let alone game, If I really tried looking for it. With a game purely based on customization,of course clipping and other stuff will happen.

There are definitely some extremely picky people around here, It really is just fine as the game is. All games have their issues and problems. Nitpicking like this is pretty terrible. Don't look at it so bluntly and just enjoy the game. Whether wearing Rin's costume makes your character's body proportions shift or not :)

[Qualia]

There are definitely some extremely picky people around here, It really is just fine as the game is. All games have their issues and problems. Nitpicking like this is pretty terrible. Don't look at it so bluntly and just enjoy the game.

Part of enjoying the game includes aesthetics. If the game isn't pleasing aesthetically, it's pretty hard to enjoy it. Nitpicking or not, SEGA is using a pretty dated engine for modern MMO standards, and it definitely shows. FFXIV did their ARR thing (also dx11), so I don't see why SEGA can't step it up and make their game more enjoyable instead of relying on mediocre AC scratches to keep their players engaged.

[Mattykins]

No, I don't think it's okay to turn a blind eye to the flaws. It's really not. You can like the game but admit that some things really need fixing. Jeez.

[landman]

The few sites I read two days ago that reported on the PS4 announcement, the few ones that cared to give their impressions those usually were that the game looks very dated. PSO2 should have aimed, from the start, to be an Online hack and slash, at the level of Bayonetta both in comboing and graphics.





[SPOILER-BOX]What the fuck is wrong with this spine and torso
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/FIncssEGUKAnMkjdZlV917IZs2XHyiByz3KnlHM4FPc=w176-h615-no[/SPOILER-BOX]



That's a so 2011 topic, when we had nothing else to talk about than the few screenshots and videos they were showing lol But today we know the truth: ARKS are bioenginereed by photoners, they aren't exactly homo sapiens :wacko:

[TaigaUC]

@Environments:
Take a look at PSO2's environments. See how blocky everything is? That's called low-poly.
The textures are all at different resolutions and stretch all over the place. It just looks awful.
Maybe it looks fine to you as it is, but if you've seen any other recent 3d game, you probably won't be able to stomach PSO2's.
IMHO it looks like handheld level polygon count.
Sure, it's the future where everything is supposed to look simple.
But as I said, if you compare to anything else recent, PSO2 not only looks heavily outdated, but doesn't even run that well all the time.

Here are some random forest screenshot comparisons. Forest is one of PSO2's better environments. The nicest ones are probably Beach and Seabed, I guess.
Trying to be fair here and not show super crappy screenshots.
Note that the other games IMHO don't have very good gameplay. Also keep in mind that they were developed BEFORE PSO2.

PSO2 forest:
[spoiler-box]http://www.pso2.com/us/html/images/screenshot_cast_2.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/phantasystar/images/a/a7/Pso2_forest_field1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140911184043
http://www.bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/pso2-forest.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

TERA forests:
[spoiler-box]https://arboreannights.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/tera-random-ss1.png
http://www.theaveragegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Tera_Enviroment3.jpg
http://cdn2.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/gallery/tera-earth-day-2011/tera_earthdayscreens0002.jpg
http://cdn2.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/gallery/tera-earth-day-2011/tera_earthdayscreens0003.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Blade and Soul forests:
[spoiler-box]http://www.bladeandsouldojo.com/uploads/gallery/album_173/gallery_2_173_295780.jpg
http://pre12.deviantart.net/a65a/th/pre/f/2014/023/e/8/blade_and_soul___mystic_forest_by_aniemarch-d73dd4z.jpg
http://www.bladeandsouldojo.com/uploads/gallery/album_173/gallery_2_173_251212.jpg
http://img13.deviantart.net/a1d6/i/2013/335/6/2/blade_and_soul_china___outside_environment_3_by_la wlaii-d6web3u.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Other games just don't have those awful texture stretching and blockiness issues.
Also note that the other games are free roam, not randomized tile sections.
There's really no excuse for PSO2 to look worse.


@Lighting:
Many areas in PSO2 have super plain lighting that don't do the game justice.
In Sanctum, the lighting looks like this most of the time!
[spoiler-box]http://oi58.tinypic.com/outpqv.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Ever wondered why some stuff like Zeshirayda's intricate details are only visible in certain places?
It's the lighting. Most of the time, it's simple and crap. Light + shadow = detail.
If you want something to look good, you need to have a good contrasting balance of light and shadow.

The PSO2 bosses are actually very detailed and look great.
[spoiler-box]http://blog-imgs-42.fc2.com/n/e/k/nekozakkagorogoro/pso20131127_223420_067.jpg[/spoiler-box]
The light is coming from the right side of the camera. See how it emphasizes the detail and creates shadows on Hunar's body?
Then look at the rest of the environment. The environment looks like the light is barely affecting it, because it has no detail to cast shadows with.

[spoiler-box]http://image02.seesaawiki.jp/t/u/tomoiku/cce3823169437749.jpg[/spoiler-box]
Detail looks great. But the contrast isn't very balanced out - shadows aren't dark enough.
Thankfully the environment isn't very visible in this shot. But when it is, you have this super bland looking environment:
[spoiler-box]http://pso2.ebitem.net/files/2012/11/pso20121117_203219_041.jpg[/spoiler-box]
Notice how there are barely any shadows in the environment? It just looks super plain.

I'd imagine that if you put those detailed PSO2 bosses into TERA or Blade and Soul's environments, they'd probably look just fine.
Probably something like these:
[spoiler-box]http://tera.enmasse.com/datastore/images/2012/07/16/19/24/24/21/Barat_kyul.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FeC2ZcCG08w/maxresdefault.jpg[/spoiler-box]


@Hands:
Hands have an assload of bones for each finger, so of course it's easier and less computation heavy to not have them.
I think I said this elsewhere already, but some games swap hand meshes instead of animating them with bones.
SEGA should have at least did that. Instead, we have weapons floating in the sky around our hands, and hands clipping through all sorts of stuff.
For a company like SEGA, fixing that kind of thing is not difficult at all.


@Classic Maid Dress:
The Classic Maid Dress the top of the underwear is because layers of skirts + physics nearly always results in clipping issues of some kind.
Easiest way is to remove the sections that should never be seen.
The Classic Maid Dress front skirt even clips through itself when idle on some characters.


@Strange deformations:
Some of the strange deformation issues can be resolved in a few different ways.
One way is to have extra bones to prevent strange deformations, at key locations such as the wrists, shoulders. I know Soul Calibur 4 used tons of those.
They are usually used to prevent loss of mass during bone twisting (eg. twist bones).
For anyone else interested in seeing what I'm talking about, here's a quick link with some images (http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125656).
There are also more recent skinning methods (eg. dual quaternion) that reduce strange deformations, but AFAIK, game engines tend not to support them.
Unreal Engine 4 apparently removed dual quaternion skinning entirely.

Last I heard (my info is outdated) most games use 2-3 bone influences per vertex. Some games with fancier graphics use more.
I'd assume the higher the number of bone influences per vertex, the more computation required.
It's also more time-consuming to manually skin complex models with complex skeletons. The simpler the model is, the faster it is to make.


PSO2 isn't a high budget game, and I'm sure they just want to pump out content as quickly and easily as possible.
That's why there are all these ugly issues here and there.
I'm sure they could afford to fix them now that the game has proved to be successful, but I doubt they'd bother to if people are still going to play the game either way.
If they ever redo everything, it'll probably be for Phantasy Star Online 3 and not 2.
Look how long it took World of Warcraft and Pangya to redo their outdated visuals. About 8 years?
SEGA did say they intend for PSO2 to last that long, but who knows if it really will.

The visual quality isn't a problem with SEGA being suck. They are capable of good visuals.
Here are some random shots from the Yakuza games:
[spoiler-box]http://static4.gamespot.com/uploads/original/mig/8/7/0/1/1958701-644272_20120613_009.jpg
http://www.otakustudy.com/wp-content/gallery2012/yakuza-5-new-battle-system-screenshots/yakuza5-5.jpg
http://i4.minus.com/iQtsKklcZNVm3.jpg[/spoiler-box]

I know some idiots are going to reply to all of this with "if you like other games so much, why not go play them?"
It's not a matter of the other games being better games, it's a matter of PSO2 not keeping up with current standards.
PSO2 just happens to have gameplay aspects I enjoy. PSO2 could also look a hell of a lot better.
And why wouldn't anyone want it to look better?

[Sizustar]

Honestly, I could pick out pictures like this for nearly any other MMO,let alone game, If I really tried looking for it. With a game purely based on customization,of course clipping and other stuff will happen.

There are definitely some extremely picky people around here, It really is just fine as the game is. All games have their issues and problems. Nitpicking like this is pretty terrible. Don't look at it so bluntly and just enjoy the game. Whether wearing Rin's costume makes your character's body proportions shift or not :)

Pointing out area that can be improved isn't "hating", it's more of disappoinement at the team.

And alot of the graphic issue has been brought up since...the beginning, and the game is supposed to be partnered with Nvidia, but I don't think Nvidia even gave the PSO team any support or access to their API.

[kazuuya]

To be fair, that's more of an oversight by the animator than a problem with the rigging or model. You're not really supposed to pay attention to details like that during fast animations so they let it slide (though it certainly would be nice if they caught things like this).

Ya true, well partially, because like (sorry I'm really bad at explaining) but it personally really bothers me how the elbows and knees were weightpainted, they bend so... whatever we want to call it hahah. (I honestly forgot what it was called when you have bad weightpainting at the elbows and knees, I had Gimlock in my brain, but that's something entirely different.)
Just my personal nitpick because it can ruin cool screenshots but you're absolutely right, usually no one really notices such a thing, and I agree it would be really nice if they had paid attention to things like this!
The shoulders really bother me too, with this... spiky vertex on top...

[HentaiLolicon]

About this re-making engine, we should consider player's average rig. As I read somewhere that Japanese are not interested in PC much so assuming that there is a large percent of potatoes out there. And, I remember that after the develope team of Hedgehog engine left, it became just a legacy of SEGA, so it stopped going on development. Personally, i like the concept of Light-field that light bounces from every objects to create a natural look. May be It's just me, Unreal engine, Source engine (CSGO) create way too much light effect and cause me nausea, headache. Anyway, just some personal opinion, please don't bash me, I have weak soul :3

[Searaphim]

The game looks total ass. I love the design, areas like Kuronia and enemies/bosses like Lanz Vareda and Chrome look awesome.
But it still looks like ass.
So it's really just the concept art that was good but porting it to 3d failed hardcore.
I mean, the sole purpose of themed mats and posters is too look at them. Yet they are pixelated as fuck like someone stretched a 640x480 to touch the inside of a modern pc screen using windows XP Paint.

Some awesome 1999 plant models being used.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150403_000926_000.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
And here's a car, presumably from a PSX game.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150522_203903_000.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
And finally some nice Kuron shots of their 1993 doom environment recolors.
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150819_144923_000.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150819_144937_001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150819_144955_002.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

nearly forgot, here is some real precision anatomy:
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Balmuk/PSO2/pso20150328_113740_001.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

All your links are broken.

[Sizustar]

The game looks total ass. I love the design, areas like Kuronia and enemies/bosses like Lanz Vareda and Chrome look awesome.
But it still looks like ass.
So it's really just the concept art that was good but porting it to 3d failed hardcore.
I mean, the sole purpose of themed mats and posters is too look at them. Yet they are pixelated as fuck like someone stretched a 640x480 to touch the inside of a modern pc screen using windows XP Paint.

Some awesome 1999 plant models being used.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/BzpgDzK.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
And here's a car, presumably from a PSX game.
[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/0leXxC5.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
And finally some nice Kuron shots of their 1993 doom environment recolors.
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i.imgur.com/yPTST3t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f1sXPYT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/unINER0.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

nearly forgot, here is some real precision anatomy:
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i.imgur.com/xT6iO7N.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

All the picture show a kitty and photo not found word..

[Squal_FFVIII]

All his pictures work just fine for me. The second one had me laughing. Hahaha PSX car xD I think I seen better PSX graphics than that shit lmao.

Parasite Eve 2 comes to mind. Sure the game is pre-rendered but for a PSX game it looks amazing.

[Searaphim]

For some reason they work on Sizustar's quote.

[Asuka~]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/vZjmZnH.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[[Ayumi]]

nearly forgot, here is some real precision anatomy:
[SPOILER-BOX]
http://i.imgur.com/xT6iO7N.jpg
[/SPOILER-BOX]

If anything, that's your fault as other than I wish my character's stomach was slightly thicker... her anatomy don't look f'd up to me.

Also all I hear in your post is:
[SPOILER-BOX]http://puu.sh/jGYAO/a1f2b3d4f8.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Lumpen Thingy]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/vZjmZnH.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

As bad as that looks don't most games do this still? Last time I recalled nearly every game with grass does this half assed stuff.

[jooozek]

one thing i have to say about pso2 engine

WHY IS THE SOUND SO FUCKING LOUD IN MPAS

[[Ayumi]]

one thing i have to say about pso2 engine

WHY IS THE SOUND SO FUCKING LOUD IN MPAS

I... never had this problem. I guess your volume is set to 100 on everything?

[HentaiLolicon]

Pso2 has 3D sound, so, good luck if you stand right in the center of explosion with 100% volume on

[Valimer]

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i.imgur.com/BAtLkvz.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]
had to check my settings after I took this screenshot, thought I was playing on low for a second

http://i.imgur.com/GpjMLEz.png

that is one nasty ass texture, and I definitely don't wanna see it on compressed settings, haha

Yes, this is a result of bad UVing. Which I don't get how they could have messed up, I mean tile-able textures are so insanely easy to make look good because they don't take up a ton of UV space. But they fucked it up somehow lol.


Speaking of particles, anyone else notice how a lot of the environmental effects are screen overlays? Like sandstorms and rain and fog? lol

[Valimer]

As bad as that looks don't most games do this still? Last time I recalled nearly every game with grass does this half assed stuff.

all foliage no matter what game, is textures on 2D planes. The reason why they look good in crysis and not PSO2 is because of texture maps. bump maps, normal maps, and occlusion maps are extra layers of info that make surfaces look 3D. PSO2 contains only one map, the diffuse map which results in a lack luster plain image cut out look.

[Zyrusticae]

Crysis also has way more grass sprites in the scene at any one point in time, and in Crysis 3 the grass is actually physically simulated (a very simplified simulation, but still).

Oh yeah, and the sprites are usually curved at least a little bit, so even when you look in from the top-down it's not quite as obvious that you're looking at a bunch of alpha'd textures on flat planes.

[LonelyGaruga]

Speaking of particles, anyone else notice how a lot of the environmental effects are screen overlays? Like sandstorms and rain and fog? lol

The best one is Vardha's explosions when destroyed. Manage to run far enough away before he finishes blowing up and they vanish!

[TaigaUC]

Dunno what's happening these days, but console games usually require a standard of quality or the game won't be allowed on the system.
PC is more powerful, but I don't think anything stands in the way of people coughing out shoddy crap for the PC.
I know I used TERA and B&S as comparisons, but if you compare PSO2 to recent console games, many of those console games still look better.
So, I don't think PSO2 sucking has anything to do with the platform.

Anyway, every complaint I've made about PSO2 are about mistakes that I don't or wouldn't make myself.
I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining, or being overly critical, or hypocritical.
Not like anything we say here matters anyway.
I'd just like people to be aware of what the standards for visual quality are supposed to be like nowadays.

PSO2 is below current standards.
It doesn't even have IKs on the legs for when characters are standing on uneven surfaces.
Do those kinds of graphical issues ultimately impact the gameplay and enjoyment?
Not necessarily, BUT that doesn't mean we should just completely ignore them.

Edit:
Something else I was reminded of: one of the reasons I've had trouble getting friends to try PSO2 is because it doesn't look great.
I don't hang around elitist people or anything. They play console far more than I do.

There was this one girl I met in another MMO, who said she won't play a game if it doesn't have good graphics.
By chance, I noticed she used one of my friend partners in PSO2 about a month ago, so I guess she decided to try PSO2.
I'm 99% sure it's the same person. Except, I haven't seen her online since then, so she probably already quit.
Whether it was because of the graphics, I don't know. There are plenty of issues that'd drive people away.
Shame, because she seemed like a good player in general.

[Flaoc]

not 100% sure these are cause of the engine sega uses but...


this dinian doe

[SPOILER-BOX]http://grabilla.com/05814-4881bff7-cda2-4b99-9f63-c9a2e2bcee8c.png

http://grabilla.com/05814-53b21abb-9431-4dbb-86a4-789bf160ee31.png

http://grabilla.com/05814-96b2471f-9b59-4f6e-af28-40bf7f3bc211.png
[/SPOILER-BOX]

clearly defying gravity (while still making a shadow of sorts)

[SPOILER-BOX]http://grabilla.com/05814-0ec42eb9-47c6-455c-ad6e-5572edd2b7c1.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

yea idk my only explanation is sega for this stuff

[Totori]

Dunno what's happening these days, but console games usually require a standard of quality or the game won't be allowed on the system.
PC is more powerful, but I don't think anything stands in the way of people coughing out shoddy crap for the PC.


That's not even true... I mean you want proof, look look how terrible Atelier Sophie is, and it's for PS4, also quality, check with Idea Factory, they ALWAYS lack quality.

So, pretttty sure PSO2 won't have a problem with meeting quality.


Something else I was reminded of: one of the reasons I've had trouble getting friends to try PSO2 is because it doesn't look great.
I don't hang around elitist people or anything. They play console far more than I do.

There was this one girl I met in another MMO, who said she won't play a game if it doesn't have good graphics.
By chance, I noticed she used one of my friend partners in PSO2 about a month ago, so I guess she decided to try PSO2.
I'm 99% sure it's the same person. Except, I haven't seen her online since then, so she probably already quit.
Whether it was because of the graphics, I don't know. There are plenty of issues that'd drive people away.
Shame, because she seemed like a good player in general.


The peeps that really quit because of how this game looked, actually do sound quite picky. A LOT of games hit the new gen consoles, and truly don't look amazing.

Graphics far from make the game, it's what the game features, and honestly still an amazing character creator, fast action battle system. It's obvious they weren't thinking about this game being stunning in looks, as players would need stronger rigs to run this. And that would hurt some of their playerbase from PSU.

[shagia]

was doing a Amduscia run, a kartargot clipped through the walls...which isn't really new, I've seen it multiple times with multiple enemies

why are enemies able to clip through certain walls depending on the environment, but the player controller (you) isn't?? are some boundaries not static? lol

[SPOILER-BOX]and then PSO2 crashed after opening Xsplit in attempt to record the horror because of a 'high' UAC alert[/SPOILER-BOX]

[HentaiLolicon]

was doing a Amduscia run, a kartargot clipped through the walls...which isn't really new, I've seen it multiple times with multiple enemies

why are enemies able to clip through certain walls depending on the environment, but the player controller (you) isn't?? are some boundaries not static? lol

[SPOILER-BOX]and then PSO2 crashed after opening Xsplit in attempt to record the horror because of a 'high' UAC alert[/SPOILER-BOX]
you should know the moment when you get sent flying and hit a wall, instead of falling on the ground, you will be stuck there and spinning on wall for few sec (I got it 10s). Also, I saw a quartz doing kamikaze in darker den LQ and it went out of map then started walking on air :|

[jooozek]

was doing a Amduscia run, a kartargot clipped through the walls...which isn't really new, I've seen it multiple times with multiple enemies

why are enemies able to clip through certain walls depending on the environment, but the player controller (you) isn't?? are some boundaries not static? lol

[SPOILER-BOX]and then PSO2 crashed after opening Xsplit in attempt to record the horror because of a 'high' UAC alert[/SPOILER-BOX]
just set your uac to whichever has "(do not dim my desktop)" and you will never crash again while trying to launch anything elevated but will still get prompts when something tries to launch elevated

[Valimer]

not 100% sure these are cause of the engine sega uses but...


this dinian doe

[SPOILER-BOX]http://grabilla.com/05814-4881bff7-cda2-4b99-9f63-c9a2e2bcee8c.png

http://grabilla.com/05814-53b21abb-9431-4dbb-86a4-789bf160ee31.png

http://grabilla.com/05814-96b2471f-9b59-4f6e-af28-40bf7f3bc211.png
[/SPOILER-BOX]

clearly defying gravity (while still making a shadow of sorts)

[SPOILER-BOX]http://grabilla.com/05814-0ec42eb9-47c6-455c-ad6e-5572edd2b7c1.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

yea idk my only explanation is sega for this stuff

Defying gravity, yes. The actual collider meshes for objects feel waaaaay off from the actual mesh. This is true with monsters too. If anyone mains the rifle, they know what I'm talking about. For instance, if you try shooting at Rockbears face in TPS mode with Piercing Shell, you may hit the arm or shoulder even though you're aiming DIRECTLY at his face. It's like the hitboxes are much larger than the actual mesh.

This has bothered me since beta.

[Zyrusticae]

That's not even true... I mean you want proof, look look how terrible Atelier Sophie is, and it's for PS4, also quality, check with Idea Factory, they ALWAYS lack quality.

So, pretttty sure PSO2 won't have a problem with meeting quality.
Nah, Atelier Sophie has waaaay better character models (http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/AtelierSophie-37.jpg) (with hands... THAT MOVE) and pulls off an illustrative art style better than any other game besides Guilty Gear Xrd.

And that aside, "other developers do it too!" is about as terrible an excuse as it is for anything else. "Other people get assaulted too!" "Other people cheat too!" blah blah blah, you get the idea.


The peeps that really quit because of how this game looked, actually do sound quite picky. A LOT of games hit the new gen consoles, and truly don't look amazing.

Graphics far from make the game, it's what the game features, and honestly still an amazing character creator, fast action battle system. It's obvious they weren't thinking about this game being stunning in looks, as players would need stronger rigs to run this. And that would hurt some of their playerbase from PSU.
Now see, this is just straight-up BS. I can assure you that the PS4 and XB1 did not sell purely because people wanted to play games on those systems, especially since a lot of games are still being released on last-gen consoles.

Secondly, this is what console games look like on those systems (the PS4 particularly):
[spoiler-box]https://scontent-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/10379783_10154911368855626_4545584622845464495_o.j pghttps://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/16404569180_529730986c_o.jpg[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]http://abload.de/img/farcry4_2015011417321p0sji.jpghttp://abload.de/img/screenshot-original10fjrzf.png[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/14844257813_0e30656bd5_o.jpghttp://u.cubeupload.com/fenderson/ed8GrandTheftAutoV20150.jpg[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]http://abload.de/img/batman_arkhamknight_2wis9x.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/xCKRkqk.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Even if you think the games released on these systems don't look 'amazing' (a preposterous idea to me, frankly, especially if you talk about Order 1886 or Arkham Knight), you have to admit that PSO2 really LOOKS and FEELS like it was developed for a handheld device, which it was. And it truly suffers for it visually in many, many ways.

The game was already dated-looking when it released. It's been three years since then, and it's only ever gotten worse. No one is going to be fooled when they look at screenshots of this game.

Yes, there are other things to the game. OBVIOUSLY there are many other aspects to it that are very important. But the graphics are definitely extremely important when it comes to attracting and maintaining customers, even moreso when the game is predicated so heavily on customizing and dressing up characters as this one is. If any one part of the whole is lackluster, it detracts. And the more things detract from the game, the less reason any one person has to continue playing it.

I know that, for me, personally, I would be spending a lot more time with the game if avatars and environments at least looked more credible than they do now. At least, better than up-ressed last-gen handheld levels, anyway. It's one of the big reasons I'm jumping ship from this game as soon as something better is released. They can fix that. They won't, obviously, but it's a possibility they should consider, especially as the game approaches its fourth year of operation.

You can like the game as it is. But you don't need to make excuses for it, and you don't need to defend it. Its honor is meaningless to you. Criticism is inevitable. Just let it happen.

[MegaMettaurX]

ITT: We nitpick about things that make it accessible for a broader amount of computer configurations.

[Anduril]

While it is all fine and dandy to make the game accessible for lower end machines, it doesn't stop them from actually doing things for the higher end ones, like at least having actual hi-res textures instead of what they are currently passing off.

[RibbonSoft]

Sorry, but I don't think the graphics on the new systems are that impressive at all. I feel it has been a much smaller leap in visuals between last and this generation of consoles. Hence one reason why I haven't bothered to get a new console, plus all of the games suck ass, so yeah. Only three games look really "next gen" (or current gen now I guess) and that's Forza 6, MGS V, and Guilty Gear Xrd.

In regards to making the game run on lower systems, yes, it is a bitch. I have to deal with that on a regular basis with my own project. The key is efficiency in using your assets and resources, which PSO2 doesn't have. Let me give you an example:

[SPOILER-BOX]This is my attempt at making a "Forest" level in Unreal Engine 4. Please don't mind the unfinished state. It still needs a lot of work. I am only showing these as an example of efficient texture usage:

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41620

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41622

The trees use a simple 1k texture powered by a normal map.

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41621

Sorry about the quality of the image, stupid forum limits. Anyway, note that there is detail on the grass and soil texture. This is because it is tiled. It is only a 512 texture. PSO2 doesn't tile their textures. They just use very low resolution textures on the entire geometry, which makes it look bad. Here's an example someone showed from earlier:

http://www.pso2.com/us/html/images/screenshot_cast_2.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/phantasystar/images/a/a7/Pso2_forest_field1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140911184043
http://www.bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/pso2-forest.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/outpqv.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Now, don't get me wrong, the game is pretty. But when you look up close, the flaws become quite apparent. The main problem with the visuals is the texture usage and how the lighting changes during weather effects like in Sanctum. I don't think they are using their textures very efficiently. In contrast, I have to make sure my game is running on mid level computers without losing fps. Not an easy feat and it is more than just textures, even though they do factor in. Larger resolution means more processing power meaning lower fps. Hence I have to find a way to get the most out of small texture resolutions. A good solution is tiling, which PSO2 doesn't do, hence the crappy looking textures.

Now that I'm done, go ahead and put in your "textures look bad, why don't you make your own game then" jokes.

[Zyrusticae]

Sorry, but I don't think the graphics on the new systems are that impressive at all. I feel it has been a much smaller leap in visuals between last and this generation of consoles. Hence one reason why I haven't bothered to get a new console, plus all of the games suck ass, so yeah. Only three games look really "next gen" (or current gen now I guess) and that's Forza 6, MGS V, and Guilty Gear Xrd.

While the jump is definitely smaller, which was obviously to be expected when you realize that the two consoles are using laptop-tier CPUs and mid-range GPUs, there are still a number of games released on those systems that just look great. In particular, how The Order 1886 is not on your list is completely beyond me. It's the only game of this generation where I genuinely feel like every screenshot could be a CG movie still:
[spoiler-box]http://abload.de/img/theorder_1886_2015022tukob.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xB0wwq7.jpg[/spoiler-box][spoiler-box]
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8581/16579672776_6bfd2a1cb7_o.jpg
http://abload.de/img/theorder_1886_2015022gak5j.jpg[/spoiler-box]

But this is all besides the point. The point was, people are buying these systems because they want the power, because they want the upgrade, not just because there are exclusives on these things. Obviously, the exclusives become a bigger factor over time as more get released, but I'd still hesitate to suggest that the visual upgrade was a non-factor in a majority of purchasing decisions.

Then again, this is all pretty much conjecture without a survey to go off of. Still, the fact that these machines sold a ton even though they had only a handful of games within the first year says a lot about the motivational power of simply having the newest shiny.


ITT: We nitpick about things that make it accessible for a broader amount of computer configurations.
They could still easily add more stuff that is entirely optional only for higher-end machines.

Just like FFXIV did with the DX11 upgrade, and Aion did with its shader overhaul.

And speaking of FFXIV - that game runs just fine on low-end machines, has a huge open world (limited to the expansion areas, but still), and they still have much better visuals across the board. What's SEGA's excuse?

[MegaMettaurX]

snip

Sega's excuse?

Their engine is old, and the community that plays this isn't even that large. Obviously people aren't playing this game for the graphics. They're playing for the niche gameplay that this series has to offer. Otherwise they'd ditch this game and go play something prettier.

[Totori]

Just like FFXIV did with the DX11 upgrade, and Aion did with its shader overhaul.

And speaking of FFXIV - that game runs just fine on low-end machines, has a huge open world (limited to the expansion areas, but still), and they still have much better visuals across the board. What's SEGA's excuse?

That's not true, FF14 struggles to run on my system during even small dungeons. Saying PSO2 won't fit on PS4 is stupid want a game that doesn't move it's fingers outside of set cut scenes TYPE-0's NPC are still in their PSP resolutions, they haven't been touched. Not everything is going to look amazing like Order 1886. Sure that game looks amazing, but it's bland as shit.

Hate the game for the graphics, they have shit to make me interested in them. And for the fanbase that SEGA is prolly concerned over, I'm sure not all of them are jumping over to PSO2 because of it's graphics, but of it's battle system, and character creator.

You know... some of the those "PS4" games you listed a few did come on PS3 also.... Like said GRAPHICS aren't everything, play something nicer looking it's really that much of a bother.

[Zyrusticae]

Still missing the point.

It doesn't matter if the engine is old. Upgrading shaders is orthogonal to the state of the engine. The game already obviously supports modern shaders, so adding more isn't going to change much or require anything close to a full engine overhaul.

An upgrade can attract more people to the game. Also

and the community that plays this isn't even that large.
[citation needed]

Do you even realize how crowded the game's servers get during Japanese prime time? Referring to this game as "niche" is beyond disingenuous.


play something nicer looking it's really that much of a bother.
I do.

I want them to convince me not to.


That's not true, FF14 struggles to run on my system during even small dungeons.
That doesn't tell me anything. If your system is below minimum specs that's not 'low end', that's... well, you know.

[MegaMettaurX]

That's not true, FF14 struggles to run on my system during even small dungeons. Saying PSO2 won't fit on PS4 is stupid want a game that doesn't move it's fingers outside of set cut scenes TYPE-0's NPC are still in their PSP resolutions, they haven't been touched. Not everything is going to look amazing like Order 1886. Sure that game looks amazing, but it's bland as shit.

Hate the game for the graphics, they have shit to make me interested in them. And for the fanbase that SEGA is prolly concerned over, I'm sure not all of them are jumping over to PSO2 because of it's graphics, but of it's battle system, and character creator.

You know... some of the those "PS4" games you listed a few did come on PS3 also.... Like said GRAPHICS aren't everything, play something nicer looking it's really that much of a bother.


Yeah I've honestly never seen anyone say "oh man, look at these phantasy star graphics. I'm definitely gonna give this a shot"

It was probably something like "oh this looks like a console type of game, it looks fun".

But this was before a time where PC gamers were spoiled by even the slightest graphical things like fingers not closing.

How often do you even get to see your character's hands anyway? especially over the giant weapons you're wielding?

Sure people like to appreciate the smaller details. But this series has never been the kind of thing where you oggle the finer parts. It's not Perfect World, and it's definitely not a AAA MMORPG like some of these other ones you're comparing it to.

It does its job well enough for the people who play to keep playing, and the people who get tired of waiting for an official US version to just play on the JP servers.

Good games are not about breath taking graphics. It's about getting the job done well enough for it not hinder the fun. Sure there are some nitpicky things about the graphics I don't like (namely the clipping) but everything else doesn't effect anything else, because I'm not focusing on it, and chances are you aren't either, unless you're just idling in the lobby or something.

Though I will admit that some of the arguments about the environments are definitely true, and I agree, but the really small stuff like textures floating above the floor (which I think looks cool actually), and awkward skeletons for like 3 frames of an attack is just asinine. I've seen worse positions in 2D hand drawn sprites.

Further more, you guys are forgetting that this game is also designed to cross platform between multiple systems, and most games that do that don't look the greatest anyway, especially during the time frame this was released.

[FmT]

Just like FFXIV did with the DX11 upgrade, and Aion did with its shader overhaul.

And speaking of FFXIV - that game runs just fine on low-end machines, has a huge open world (limited to the expansion areas, but still), and they still have much better visuals across the board. What's SEGA's excuse?

As for FFXIV upgrade to DX11, most of the users see no difference except random crash and worst performance... for better water transparency ? When people disable lightning effects in PSO2 because in mpa, you don't even see mobs anymore when 12 people spamming their attacks :-?

Still, I'm pretty sure PS4 will come with improved textures, like when FF11 was port on xbox and got better textures than ps2.

[Sizustar]

Sega's excuse?
and the community that plays this isn't even that large.


http://i.imgur.com/dByRTgR.jpg

[yoshiblue]

I know mod man said to keep it PSO2 Japan, but man, I really want a scarf. I don't care which faction.

[TaigaUC]

People seem to expect major jumps in visual graphics. It doesn't work that way.

Computer graphics haven't had any huge leaps since they figured out how to get real time dynamic light and shadows on complex models without running slow as shit.
In the past (or in pre-renders), that's only possible with high polygon, but now we have normal maps which look nearly the same, but with little performance hit.

Since then, it's mostly been improvements in fidelity, realism, processing power and optimization.
The limits on how much data we can shove into games has increased.
Development methods have changed, become more user-friendly.
Stuff like that.

AFAIK (and I'm not up to date on consoles), the current console generation improved on the previous one along the above lines.
I've been around to see computer graphics go from fat blocks to near-photorealism.
I honestly don't know what people are expecting from the "next generation".
Nobody says you have to get hyped over and buy the latest stuff. I don't.
I keep myself busy catching up, and then buy stuff when it's cheap. PS3 stuff still looks great to me.
Hell, I still enjoy the visuals of old 2d dot pixel games over most of the recent generic realistic crap. Style > realism.

Anyway, back on topic...
As I said, the issue here is that PSO2's graphics are outdated and have lots of stupid issues that likely wouldn't pass quality checks elsewhere.
There aren't any other decent games like PSO2. So, I want PSO2 to look nicer.
It doesn't have to be the best thing ever, but it'd be nice if it was at current standards.

[Sizustar]

People seem to expect major jumps in visual graphics. It doesn't work that way.

Computer graphics haven't had any huge leaps since they figured out how to get real time dynamic light and shadows on complex models without running slow as shit.
In the past (or in pre-renders), that's only possible with high polygon, but now we have normal maps which look nearly the same, but with little performance hit.

Since then, it's mostly been improvements in fidelity, realism, processing power and optimization.
The limits on how much data we can shove into games has increased.
Development methods have changed, become more user-friendly.
Stuff like that.

AFAIK (and I'm not up to date on consoles), the current console generation improved on the previous one along the above lines.
I've been around to see computer graphics go from fat blocks to near-photorealism.
I honestly don't know what people are expecting from the "next generation".
Nobody says you have to get hyped over and buy the latest stuff. I don't.
I keep myself busy catching up, and then buy stuff when it's cheap. PS3 stuff still looks great to me.
Hell, I still enjoy the visuals of old 2d dot pixel games over most of the recent generic realistic crap. Style > realism.

Anyway, back on topic...
As I said, the issue here is that PSO2's graphics are outdated and have lots of stupid issues that likely wouldn't pass quality checks elsewhere.
There aren't any other decent games like PSO2. So, I want PSO2 to look nicer.
It doesn't have to be the best thing ever, but it'd be nice if it was at current standards.

Well, the keyword here is Reborn, which Japanese gamer are linking with what FF did when they did the change.

But if anything, we'll see on TGS, since supposedly sega will have a playable demo on PS4 there.

[yoshiblue]

I wonder if Nova will be ported too?

[MegaMettaurX]

http://i.imgur.com/dByRTgR.jpg

Great, but how many of those people actually play the game.

That's like showing a screenshot of Worlds, like the entire crowd actually plays League.

[Cyron Tanryoku]

PSO2 has very bad graphics for the time period it was released in
Like, it's barely that much of an improvement over PSU, and in general, I've seen Gamecube games that looked better than it, such as TP.

I wouldn't even call the customization great, it's just a very anime style game. The character base models are terrible to begin with, so no matter what you do, those flaws remain no matter what you change. This is probably the reason why I found the Yukata and Lilipa outfits great, they cover most of the shit up, and issues with the legs are mostly in the front so I don't notice them.

And to add onto that, the maps themselves are borderline Nintendo 64 levels of sharpness and the AA is complete ass. All this game has going for it is its shader engine, which ultimately still isn't /that/ great.

But all in all, it's still fine. It's designed to run on even the lowest of computers, so I can't exactly say I'm surprised its so graphically unappealing. Theres really nothing they can do to make it look better if they still want those lower end users to play their game. Sucks for those who (for some reason) still play this game, and can handle more, but it is what it is.






Also the only reason this game has any sort of base is because it's free and its sexualized to all hell
The gameplay is a total joke

[Sizustar]

Great, but how many of those people actually play the game.

That's like showing a screenshot of Worlds, like the entire crowd actually plays League.

Everyone?
That's from the PSO2 Live broadcast #34 on 8/16/2015
Even the nico only viewer numbered 134432 people, not counting youtube, twitch and other.
And as it's a event for PSO2 and announcment on PSO2 only, it's not likely that none players of the game will attend or watch it.

So...since you don't seem to know what you're talking about, it's better to just go learn a bit more then spout out random stuff you don't understand.

[Squal_FFVIII]

Totori, how can you call the pso2 character creator "great" when it doesn't even have an ass slider? :(

Also, I don't really think the whole "Because Japan doesn't like ass" excuse works anymore. There are so many games with character creators and they all seem to have one. Hell even many Japanese hentai games have a booty slider XD

Honestly, sega doesn't add a booty slider for pure laziness. They would have to retweak every costume in the game to work with everyone's big booties.

Hell, they can't even bother to fix the broken costumes that shrink the breasts size.

[Lumpen Thingy]

PSO2 has very bad graphics for the time period it was released in
Like, it's barely that much of an improvement over PSU, and in general, I've seen Gamecube games that looked better than it, such as TP.

I wouldn't even call the customization great, it's just a very anime style game. The character base models are terrible to begin with, so no matter what you do, those flaws remain no matter what you change. This is probably the reason why I found the Yukata and Lilipa outfits great, they cover most of the shit up, and issues with the legs are mostly in the front so I don't notice them.

And to add onto that, the maps themselves are borderline Nintendo 64 levels of sharpness and the AA is complete ass. All this game has going for it is its shader engine, which ultimately still isn't /that/ great.

But all in all, it's still fine. It's designed to run on even the lowest of computers, so I can't exactly say I'm surprised its so graphically unappealing. Theres really nothing they can do to make it look better if they still want those lower end users to play their game. Sucks for those who (for some reason) still play this game, and can handle more, but it is what it is.






Also the only reason this game has any sort of base is because it's free and its sexualized to all hell
The gameplay is a total joke

Have you not played other mmos? Hell Tera and Vindictus textures just look shiny instead of actually detailed. Most mmos get away with this aswell as the sexualized shit lol. As far as gameplay goes I still don't really see the problem with it since it went for more monster hunter instead of boring as shit style of gameplay like WOW.

[Meteor Weapon]

PSO2 still looks good in my eyes, I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about. PSU graphics not much different than PSO2, uh...wat there so much difference is it just my eyes being blind or what.

Sure there a few flops and flaws, but for an mmo it has okay graphics compared to most console games I could just ignore them, heck even most console games made by most JP's have horrible graphics (im playing Ar No Surge atm and graphics are just as bad or worst.)

The only visual problem I have with the game is fucking skeleton/bone models(fingers, fucking fingers dont have bones) and clippings everywhere.

[MegaMettaurX]

Everyone?
That's from the PSO2 Live broadcast #34 on 8/16/2015
Even the nico only viewer numbered 134432 people, not counting youtube, twitch and other.
And as it's a event for PSO2 and announcment on PSO2 only, it's not likely that none players of the game will attend or watch it.

So...since you don't seem to know what you're talking about, it's better to just go learn a bit more then spout out random stuff you don't understand.

Sure, Just like worlds is an event for league that thousands of people go to watch, just because it's a popular thing. a good amount of them don't even play the game.

But yeah, lets just assume the entire crowd in that PSO2 photo play the game.

Now how many of them are there because the graphics are top notch? None of them. They're there because it's phantasy star, and they know what it entails.

[sol_trigger]

i will be honest here.

the first time i played PSO2 was its BETA phase, game looks SUPER GREAT on my 9600GT but now is 2015 im sick of this game graphics already, it sucks shit

look at FF14 DX11 upgrade


[spoiler-box]
http://i.imgur.com/w7KX8oY.gif[/spoiler-box]

[FmT]

look at FF14 DX11 upgrade

It was way better before floor wasn't a mirror and lightning was realist... I mean its darker and brighter at the same time :-? Lightning source isn't even natural since its coming from windows and chandelier, but reflection is totally the same on the floor...

This "upgrade" is a matter of taste.

[sol_trigger]

it has HDR, ambient occlusion and acceptable reflections, much better than PSO2 and you are saying it is just a matter of taste. Jesus PSO2 fanboy stop your blind love

[Qualia]

The sad thing is, DX9 FFXIV still looks way better than PSO2. Even pre-ARR looked better than PSO2.

[Valimer]

Sorry, but I don't think the graphics on the new systems are that impressive at all. I feel it has been a much smaller leap in visuals between last and this generation of consoles. Hence one reason why I haven't bothered to get a new console, plus all of the games suck ass, so yeah. Only three games look really "next gen" (or current gen now I guess) and that's Forza 6, MGS V, and Guilty Gear Xrd.

In regards to making the game run on lower systems, yes, it is a bitch. I have to deal with that on a regular basis with my own project. The key is efficiency in using your assets and resources, which PSO2 doesn't have. Let me give you an example:

[SPOILER-BOX]This is my attempt at making a "Forest" level in Unreal Engine 4. Please don't mind the unfinished state. It still needs a lot of work. I am only showing these as an example of efficient texture usage:

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41620

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41622

The trees use a simple 1k texture powered by a normal map.

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2969&pictureid=41621

Sorry about the quality of the image, stupid forum limits. Anyway, note that there is detail on the grass and soil texture. This is because it is tiled. It is only a 512 texture. PSO2 doesn't tile their textures. They just use very low resolution textures on the entire geometry, which makes it look bad. Here's an example someone showed from earlier:

http://www.pso2.com/us/html/images/screenshot_cast_2.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/phantasystar/images/a/a7/Pso2_forest_field1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140911184043
http://www.bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/pso2-forest.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/outpqv.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

Now, don't get me wrong, the game is pretty. But when you look up close, the flaws become quite apparent. The main problem with the visuals is the texture usage and how the lighting changes during weather effects like in Sanctum. I don't think they are using their textures very efficiently. In contrast, I have to make sure my game is running on mid level computers without losing fps. Not an easy feat and it is more than just textures, even though they do factor in. Larger resolution means more processing power meaning lower fps. Hence I have to find a way to get the most out of small texture resolutions. A good solution is tiling, which PSO2 doesn't do, hence the crappy looking textures.

Now that I'm done, go ahead and put in your "textures look bad, why don't you make your own game then" jokes.

LMAO @ the Forest 2 screen shot

it's like the artist said to hell with it and just put a green photo filter over the whole texture

[sol_trigger]

game is already close to 30GB... i think it's too late to do anything now lol

[Sizustar]

Sure, Just like worlds is an event for league that thousands of people go to watch, just because it's a popular thing. a good amount of them don't even play the game.

But yeah, lets just assume the entire crowd in that PSO2 photo play the game.

Now how many of them are there because the graphics are top notch? None of them. They're there because it's phantasy star, and they know what it entails.

The event is for announcing new major update to PSO2, .
So I'm not sure what your point is, beside the fact that only player of the game would be interested in said event.
What you're saying would be like, if Blizzard do a starcraft/warcraft event on one of their own IP, and you claim that the people that attended aren't their fan, when the event itself is marketed toward that IP.

And I don't see why bringing up other game is relevant, as that's a tournament, and only people that like the game would be interested in those tournament would attend too.

You haven't shown any evidence or proved anything that the event announced and after it occured is about PSO2 will have interest to none player, since the information given would only be relevant to players of the game, and the number of viewer and atttendee is showing that PSO2 is one of Sega's major IP currently, and is popular in Japan, their main market and target audience, since it is still making them profit.

[TaigaUC]

I recently felt like watching Shen Mue 1 and 2 playthroughs for nostalgia purposes.
Some of the environments honestly reminded me of PSO2.
There was a commenter on the livestream who said PSO2 looks like it could be a PS2 game. I laughed at that.
Aside from the stupid model mistakes, it's mainly the environments that visually let PSO2 down at this point.
Kinda like the Atelier games.

In the Atelier games, the 2d art and character models look great, but the environments look like ass.
Low poly, low res textures, no ambient occlusion, lack of contrasting light and shadow, etc. Dull, lifeless, very plain.
Same problems as PSO2. It really kills the atmosphere for me. Kinda looks like they intended the games for PSP or Vita, not PS3.
Makes me wonder if there aren't many environmental artists in Japan, or something. Or they're expensive to hire?

I understand that these games have different styles, but I feel the issues extend beyond that.
The environments don't need to look perfectly realistic, but it'd be nice if they looked even half as nice as the 2d artwork.

Edit: Looks like the environments in the Atelier games have gradually improved.
Totori (2010), Meruru (the game after Totori):
[spoiler-box]http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/108/1080037/first-look-atelier-totorio-20100326002254558.jpg
http://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Meruru-Screen-5.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V34H8IWrEXA/maxresdefault.jpg
http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Atelier-Meruru-Alchemist-of-Arland-3_2011_03-24-11_021.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Sophie (latest game? 2015?). Definitely looks much nicer - colorful, vibrant, and not as plain.
[spoiler-box]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eKaKsFb3S0w/VZFHQKF96VI/AAAAAAAAIac/s_Vwc_vSoh0/s1600/Atelier-Sophie-The-Alchemist-of-the-Mysterious-Book%2B5.jpg
http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Atelier-Sophie-Ann_06-23-15_003.jpg[/spoiler-box]

It's really the lack of shadows that hurts the environments. PSO2 at least actually has shadows, it just doesn't use them well.
This is what the 2d art looks like for those games. Note the vibrant colors.
[spoiler-box]http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Atelier-Sophie-Ann_06-23-15_004.jpg
http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Atelier-Sophie-6-1280x720.jpg
http://wallpoper.com/images/00/30/20/26/atelier-meruru_00302026.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

For vague comparison, White Knight Chronicles (2008 ), again a different style.
Actually looks better than PSO2's environments. White Knight Chronicles has a lot of gameplay issues, though.
One image is 2d art and not in-game, obviously. Note the difference between the art and the actual game style.
[spoiler-box]http://elder-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/white-knight-chronicles-mullet.jpg
http://point-blank.media/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/White-Knight-Chronicles-II-Image_11.jpg
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/whiteknight/images/2/27/Faria.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100904200105
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/whiteknight/images/b/bd/Intown.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110329190726
http://gematsu.com/gallery/albums/white-knight-chronicles-ii/october-9-2009/White-Knight-Chronicles-II_2009_10-09-09_22.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Dragon's Dogma (2012), on PS3. For fun. More realistic style, of course.
[spoiler-box]http://officialdongaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/dragons-dogma.jpg
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/9/92448/2480626-dragon%27s+dogma_+dark+arisen+screenshot.jpg
http://cdn.vgleaks.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/DD_screen_March3_06_bmp_jpgcopy.jpg
http://media1.gameinformer.com/imagefeed/screenshots/DragonsDogma/Memory08_1_bmp_jpgcopy.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Dragon's Dogma Online (2015).
[spoiler-box]http://cdn.segmentnext.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Dragon%E2%80%99s-Dogma-Online-021.jpg
http://nichegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/dragons-dogma-online-ddo-2015-02-27-8.jpg
http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/DragonsDogmaOL-1.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Phantasy Star Online 2 (2012) again, for comparison's sake. It actually pales in comparison to most of the above games. Except for the last image, of course!
[spoiler-box]http://www.ricedigital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/003.jpg
http://gematsu.com/gallery/albums/phantasy-star-online-2/march-26-2012/Phantasy-Star-Online-2_2012_03-26-12_060.jpg
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17trsar0xon3qjpg/original.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

Phantasy Star Universe (2006):
[spoiler-box]http://www.multiplayergames.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/phantasystaruniverse.jpg
http://static3.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/gamespot/images/2006/306/reviews/762551-932621_20061103_001.jpg
http://bumped.org/psublog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/chasing-after-sonic-large.png[/spoiler-box]

Finally, let's not forget the nicely lit environments from the first version of PSO2:
[spoiler-box]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-FPk-u-FqM[/spoiler-box]

In that video, it's not just the nicer looking environmental lighting and colors.
At that stage, they just wanted to test the gameplay, so the random tile system likely wasn't in.
That means it was likely a single huge city map, instead of procedurally generated generic boring tiles.
I personally prefer a consistent location with meaning instead of random meaningless areas that I just want to run through to get to the end.
PSO1 had randomized maps too, but they also had special areas where you knew something was going to happen. PSO2 doesn't have that.

[Zyrusticae]

XCOM 2 seems like it's going to be a great example of procedural generation done right. They have bigger tiles that represent whole buildings, parking lots, etc., connecting tiles in-between, and a whole bunch of random elements within the tiles themselves to add variety. This means there are clearly recognizable areas, but the gameplay within can still vary quite a lot. It also means the game is much more visually coherent while still looking quite interesting instead of the plain and boring sameness that permeates most of PSO2.

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/BYavzPL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AlTVwFu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KqBjOhp.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Granted, this is an end-of-2015 release on a modern PC hardware target with no handheld versions to worry about, but it's still a sobering example of what could have been had they aimed a bit higher, and maybe mixed things up a bit more.

[Squal_FFVIII]

Looking at all the pics Taiga posted really make pso2 look dated as fuck >.<

The character models in pso2 are OK ( I guess) but the environments need a ton of work.

[Ezodagrom]

Looking at all the pics Taiga posted really make pso2 look dated as fuck >.<

The character models in pso2 are OK ( I guess) but the environments need a ton of work.
PSO2 looks dated, no denying that, but the screenshots posted by Taiga, I think they're some of the first screenshots that were shown from the game, from before the alpha test?

[Squal_FFVIII]

PSO2 looks dated, no denying that, but the screenshots posted by Taiga, I think they're some of the first screenshots that were shown from the game, from before the alpha test?

The game still looks that way. The forest still looks just as bland and boring with horrible textures.

Before you ask, yes I play with fully maxed out settings along with added Anti-aliasing using Nvidia inspector.

[TaigaUC]

It's the combination of low poly + inconsistent stretching textures.
And then the lighting is too simple. PSO2 has shaders, but the environment doesn't seem to use many, if at all.
The particle effects are fine, except that they tend to bog down systems.
Zyrusticae explained why a while back.

I'm not a fan of procedural generation or randomization of maps.
It's probably fine for something like a quick arena battle, but I wouldn't use it for an atmospheric game.
Instead, I prefer to find ways to keep a static environment interesting and varied.
I'd also like to provide players with enough alternatives, so that they don't have to keep doing the same thing over and over.

PSO2 doesn't do that. They dripfeed one small thing at a time and make players do that same single thing over and over, until everyone's dead sick of it.
As a result, once that single thing wears out, nobody wants to do it again... until they add new better rewards, but it's still the same goddamn thing.
On top of that, most of the content is random or scheduled, which drags it out even further. It's shitty game design.
There is still nearly nothing to do in between EQs. PSO2 needs way more modes - stuff people can log in and do at any time, for FUN.

They could add more interesting Casino games, for one thing.
Boss Battle mode for another. Solo Challenge Mode (that doesn't take hours and hours) for people to mess around with.
Throw in rankings for those, and bam! Incentive to do them. No need for fancy gear rewards.
People who enjoy those modes will do them for the challenge and for fun, not for reward.

That's another major problem with PSO2. It's always rewards > fun.
A good game is one where people are having so much fun that they don't notice they're being rewarded at the same time.
It's taken them THREE YEARS to add solo Time Attack rankings.
They could probably break up existing content in that same way (eg. solo, duo, etc), instead of only trying to randomize everything.

[Zyrusticae]

Personally, I think procedural generation is fine. It's just that they need to throw in more variety and more set pieces to make it worthwhile.

For example, having special cells designed specifically to accommodate special emergency quests - kind of like parallel areas, perhaps, only not segregated from the rest of the play field. Having texture variations for existing areas (sounds lazy, but it's amazing how much simply having the area look different can add visual interest). Adding more random props (but with pre-planned locations) to change the geometry within a cell - stuff like great big skeletons, crashed ships, piles of supplies, and so on and so forth; you already see some of this in certain areas, but they're always static within a cell.

Frankly, I'm hoping the whole "Reborn" thing leads up to stuff like this. Just adding more to what's already there, rather than adding new things and neglecting the old things. Something as simple as having more cells to seed the random map generator with could do a lot to help.

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, I just don't personally enjoy procedural generation.
I don't enjoy it in other games either. I like the feel of environments to be tangible, static, existing places.
I really enjoy environments like those in the Souls series.

Anyway, I was talking with a JP friend about the PSO2 graphical and design issues, and they mentioned something interesting.
The Zan effect bug. I don't know if it's general knowledge. Not sure if I understood it right, but it goes something like this:
If you use Zan and then do other stuff, the game hits an effect limit and the initial Zan becomes invisible.

The interesting part is, this bug didn't exist before. It started when the Vita service started.
Which heavily implies that SEGA reduced the effect limit for the PC version alongside the Vita version.
That in turn implies that SEGA intentionally keeps the PC version of PSO2 in line with the Vita version.
The PC version could easily have an effect limit adjustment feature. But it doesn't.

So... that should be interesting to anyone arguing that PSO2 doesn't look shittier because of Vita.

[Misaki Ki]

They changed quite a bit of the game engine for the Vita. It just made a mess of things in PC, and honestly, can see a bit of it still in effect today.

Here's one post on bumped about it. http://www.bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-12712-bugs-bugs-bugs/

[TaigaUC]

Weird, I don't remember ever seeing that post.
Thanks.

[jooozek]

never forget

http://files.alexmyers.info/blahg/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/original-2.jpeg

even more

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/12/this-video-game-bug-is-truly-terrifying/

[TaigaUC]

I think I already linked this, but it's always fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9nwPK1nyI0

[sol_trigger]

I think I already linked this, but it's always fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9nwPK1nyI0


why yu fix thisssssssssssssss :-( bring this backkkkkkk

[Valimer]

The dungeon generator is great for a instanced game like PSO2. But like Zyrusticae said, more variation in tiles would be great imo. They could even add random elements to existing tiles to break up some repetition. Since the environments are relatively primitive it wouldn't take that many resources to do either, but it is what it is.

I'm actually working on a procedural dungeon generator in Unity and it's actually way easier than I thought, still some things I need to work out but overall pretty easy.

[TaigaUC]

Oh, one thing I really like about PSO2: wearing heels makes you taller, instead of making your legs shorter.
That's super rare in these types of games.

Only problem is, they keep messing up the anatomy and proportions on some outfits.
For example, your legs become shorter when you change outfits, or your feet have no toes.

[Finalzone]

The sad thing is, DX9 FFXIV still looks way better than PSO2. Even pre-ARR looked better than PSO2.

The difference is, gameplay wise, MMO games like FFIXV does not have manual input to control characters doing serial combo attacks. Let also take account of bandwidth to send textures online and collision detection for MMO. Considering PSO2 aimed to run on lower spec system as possible, it shows it ages and improvements are needed.

Few things SEGA needs to address, the use of Vulkan API (based on AMD Mantle) designed with videogames developers in mind available on nearly all platform including Android (Google confirmed its OS support to Vulkan). That way, nearly all hardware will be supported. I will be hardly surprising Playstation 4 will take advantage of that API.

[Kokurokoki]

Have you not played other mmos? Hell Tera and Vindictus textures just look shiny instead of actually detailed. Most mmos get away with this aswell as the sexualized shit lol. As far as gameplay goes I still don't really see the problem with it since it went for more monster hunter instead of boring as shit style of gameplay like WOW.

I agree. PSO2's gameplay is very tight for an action RPG, although it can be clunky at times with a controller. I'm glad they went in this direction instead of doing the WoW style. The combat system is far better than TERA's, without all that awkward clunkiness that comes with doing combos and such.

[TaigaUC]

That's because PSO2 is made like an action game, like Mabinogi Heroes (Vindictus).
TERA, BnS and WoW are all coded to be like RPGs. They don't use collision, they use distance.

The thing is, to get action style gameplay, that judgment is handled locally by the client.
Your client then tells the server that it successfully hit, and the server tells you how much damage you did.
That's why when the game lags, you can keep fighting but damage numbers won't appear.

[wefwq]

Reminder that the game are 3 years old and yet they haven't managed to fix fullscreen crash and depth of field still not functional.

[TaigaUC]

Just saw this on MMOLoda.
http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image.php?id=63728

I'm assuming someone decided to photoshop a screenshot of their character.
I think it's a good example of how PSO2 could look better.

[Squal_FFVIII]

Better lighting :)

[TaigaUC]

Yeah, it's more vibrant and colorful.
The reddish shadow of the skin looks more like how subsurface scattering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering) would (ie. realistic skin shader).
They fixed some of the visible clipping and polygonal edges.
It also looks like there's some bloom.
The hair in PSO2 could use a better hair shader, like the one in Vindictus.

On the "not really a graphical improvement" side, there are sparkles everywhere.
And there's a third light source which is common for photo shoots (ie. rim lighting).
Can't really expect that third light in a realtime game scenario (or real life).

Generally, shaded faces look strange from other directions. That's why PSO2's faces look bad most of the time.
AFAIK, if you want an anime style face, you either have to modify the surface normals to be shaded a specific way, or use a shader that keeps the lighting of the face more consistent (eg. no shadows, or toon/cel shading).