Class / Boss Matchups Survey

[Selphea]

So there's a weapon tiers thread and a boss tiers thread. I feel those two should go hand in hand, so I went ahead and made a survey that does exactly that. Survey's done, so here's the results.

Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P7E1cNCkBFb_yJP3sVwwu090DVW7RZSM86RDZiDkH8o/edit?usp=sharing) | Blog (http://www.fulldive.nu/2015/08/22/pso-world-classboss-matchups-survey/)

http://i.imgur.com/RZzVDv8.jpg

And tier lists.

Bosses:


S (3.35): Falke Leone & Vilma Leopard
A (3.36 - 3.59): Diabo Igrythys, Bayaribbles, Plosiorgles, Nepto & Rheo, Cougar NX, Falz Angel, Knight Gear, Zeta Guranz
B (3.60 - 4.06): Bal Rodos, Gal Gryphon, Falz Hunar, Guar Zigmorde, Magatsu, Gigur Gunne-gam, Anga Fundarge, Blu Ringahda
C (4.07 - 4.30): Big Vardha, Biol Meduna, Dark Vibrace, Banther & Banshee, Quartz Dragon, Dragon Ex, Zeshrayda, Falz Loser
D (>4.30): Falz Elder, Vol Dragon, Dark Ragne


Class combos with more than 2 responses:

S (>4.40): Ra/Hu
A (4.00-4.40): Ra/Br, Fi/Hu
B (3.70-4.00): Bo/Hu, Br/Hu, Te/Br, Gu/Ra
C: (<3.70): Hu/Fi, Fo/Te, Te/Hu

[FireswordRus]

done, dont have problem with DS for 90% boss, for other 10% - TD

[Koishi]

Rifle can kill every boss in SH easily

[Xaelouse]

I submitted for BO/HU boots

[Selphea]

done, dont have problem with DS for 90% boss, for other 10% - TD

Sympho pretty much turns your character into a Homing Emission :wacko:


Rifle can kill every boss in SH easily

Yea it can :wacko: I had to throw in the SH bosses to be a bit more complete, but even then I had to leave out the midbosses otherwise the survey would be way too long. Personally the UQ bosses should have more interesting results.


I submitted for BO/HU boots

Thanks :) At 50 responses so far and the variety is pretty good. I'll keep things secret for another 2.5 days though.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's hard to be objective with much of the bosses since SH-level stuff is still a large portion of the game, and being armed with a 60 ele ideal is like fighting shambling zombies from RE2 with a BFG from Doom; most SH bosses die in under 20 seconds while I'm still invincible. I think I'll just excuse myself.

[untrustful]

The only way to do something like this would be to pair bosses with resistances to opposite classes. Like Mission 5 of Cmode where all physical attackers go right and all ranged and tech guys go left.

[LonelyGaruga]

That's more about tactics than it is about resistances. Of which none are present at all in CM (barring Ultimate enemies and their usual range/tech resistance).

But to be sure, this is not going to be an accurate survey at all, more due to the participants than anything else. But that's fine, because


This survey is for fun

[Zyrusticae]

I haven't touched pretty much anything from Episode 3 yet, so I can't actually participate in this survey.

Oh, well!

[Dnd]

A good geared Fi can pretty much troll everyboss so their answers are gonna be skewed somewhat, still, im very interested in the replys. perhaps you shoud of asked for peoples level/gear level aswell, considering there are no names to tie to replys - you could of seen how different gear levels effect peoples preception of difficulty and so on ^^;

[Selphea]

A good geared Fi can pretty much troll everyboss so their answers are gonna be skewed somewhat, still, im very interested in the replys. perhaps you shoud of asked for peoples level/gear level aswell, considering there are no names to tie to replys - you could of seen how different gear levels effect peoples preception of difficulty and so on ^^;

That's what the "clear time" question is for ;)

[Ce'Nedra]

You asked for clear time on SH, should have made that XH maybe? Clearing SH bosses is a joke to everyone that's playing on XH. That and of course the UQ bosses don't spawn on SH (Gal LQ doesn't count)

[Selphea]

Yea but the only XH boss that's easily accessible is Zigmor which wouldn't exactly be the average boss.

[Ce'Nedra]

Well SHAQs update to Risk 50 could be considered XH I guess? ^^; Unless they are still weaker then real XH bosses.

[Selphea]

They're pretty much XH, just that I don't realistically expect everyone to have Risk 50'd every SHAQ to answer that due to capsule cost and poor reward. Afaik the only real reason is Apprentice Soul and maybe Noire units? The PAs drop at low Risk and apparently Modulator is better farmed with TAs/abduction.

[Dnd]

At lv71 risk the cap drop-rate is insanely buffed, i get 20-30 a run soloing at +31 risk for lv80 mobs ^^;. The exp and fodders are really nice and with the caps being so plentyful its not like you'll run out either nowdays

[FireswordRus]

Well SHAQs update to Risk 50 could be considered XH I guess? ^^; Unless they are still weaker then real XH bosses.

Yes. more HP, ultimate buster drop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrC-kp_VP_4

[Ce'Nedra]

I knew that much, I just don't know if the monsters and bosses are XH tier strength or just a buffed SH tier but still weaker then XH, cause I haven't touched AQ yet since that update xD

Technically everyone could be running XH that way. But until sega gets unlazy and adds XH as a difficulty to Arks Quests and Free Fields I guess SH is still the most festible.

[FireswordRus]

I knew that much, I just don't know if the monsters and bosses are XH tier strength or just a buffed SH tier but still weaker then XH, cause I haven't touched AQ yet since that update xD

Technically everyone could be running XH that way. But until sega gets unlazy and adds XH as a difficulty to Arks Quests and Free Fields I guess SH is still the most festible.

try say it Falz Angel lvl 80 in SHAQ 50 risk :)
Named boses in SHAQ 50+ are realy strong. Very hard kill it solo....and if they are boosted...
I can confirm, what Falz Angel in SHAQ50 have same HP and Attack power as an Angel in XQ EQ

[milranduil]

try say it Falz Angel lvl 80 in SHAQ 50 risk :)
Named boses in SHAQ 50+ are realy strong. Very hard kill it solo....and if they are boosted...

tank master firesword saying a boss is hard to kill solo? what is this world coming to!

[FireswordRus]

tank master firesword saying a boss is hard to kill solo? what is this world coming to!

Yes, Rare, named boses with infection lvl 3 are very hard

[Dnd]

lv80 falz angel isnt even hard, it just takes forever and is very painful if you mess up and imo, most lv3 boosted rare bosses that spawn the most annoying part is the huge HP pool and infection messing things up....

[Selphea]

I haven't touched AQ yet since that update xD

Perfectly in line with what I said:


I don't realistically expect everyone to have Risk 50'd every SHAQ.

TBH the infection is scarier than the boss itself. It's like how do you even High Time/Limit Break? Although with post-Kuron Gunner, if else fails just Aerial Shooting over their head and Bullet Squall.

[Selphea]

Update: Found out about SurveyMonkey's free restrictions - good news and bad news. The good news is there's a lot of responses. The bad news is SurveyMonkey caps the number of responses I can see at 100.

It's already at 90/100, so this survey will likely only be up for a few more hours and I can publish the results early, once I figure out how to present this stuff nicely.

[FireswordRus]

i am dont understand, who are SurveyMonkey's ?

[TwistedShaerk]

i am dont understand, who are SurveyMonkey's ?

SurveyMonkey is the name of the website for the survey, so I think Selphea is just talking about the limitations of the website.

[FireswordRus]

can i am get link to them website?

[LonelyGaruga]

https://www.surveymonkey.com/

Could have just taken the link from the OP and shortened it.

[FireswordRus]

Мы принимаем рубли
Цены на наши товары и услуги установлены в рублях, так что вам не придется беспокоиться о курсе обмена валют. Вы можете производить оплату кредитной картой или счет фактурой.
it is just hosting

[FireswordRus]

need proof from Selphea

[Selphea]

https://www.surveymonkey.com/pricing/details/

I'm not paying $50 for this! </cheapskate>

Last 4 spots though. I'm more than halfway through pasting responses into Excel too.

[yoshiblue]

Hows that coming along?

[Selphea]

101 responses so far including 1 response from someone testing the survey.

There was work, then TD3 then scheduled team TACOs then sleep but I'm finally working on this :p

[Selphea]

Aaaand done

Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P7E1cNCkBFb_yJP3sVwwu090DVW7RZSM86RDZiDkH8o/edit?usp=sharing) | Blog (http://www.fulldive.nu/2015/08/22/pso-world-classboss-matchups-survey/)

http://i.imgur.com/RZzVDv8.jpg

And tier list:

Bosses:


S (3.35): Falke Leone & Vilma Leopard
A (3.36 - 3.59): Diabo Igrythys, Bayaribbles, Plosiorgles, Nepto & Rheo, Cougar NX, Falz Angel, Knight Gear, Zeta Guranz
B (3.60 - 4.06): Bal Rodos, Gal Gryphon, Falz Hunar, Guar Zigmorde, Magatsu, Gigur Gunne-gam, Anga Fundarge, Blu Ringahda
C (4.07 - 4.30): Big Vardha, Biol Meduna, Dark Vibrace, Banther & Banshee, Quartz Dragon, Dragon Ex, Zeshrayda, Falz Loser
D (>4.30): Falz Elder, Vol Dragon, Dark Ragne


Biggest surprises: Facility Rodos is 2 tiers above punching bag status, Nepto & Rheo broke into A rank, up there with UQ bosses and Falz Angel.

[yoshiblue]

Very surprised with where Bal Rodos, Biol Meduna and Vol Dergan placed.

[Dnd]

Looking at all the spreadsheet data, its pretty intresting on the breakdown. Most of the results dont surprise me. Dablo being so high and dragon EX being so low are two for me. Dragon Ex being pretty hard if you dont have insane dps to keep chain stunned, from my own experience. Knight gear/cougar being near top tier again, stupid-ass hit boxes and when lags involved cougar becomes near impossible to time guards properly xD.

Weapon wise, Fi/Hu is pretty much where i thought it'd be. They have access to some amazing HU-class weaponary (Ely-sion, Magatsu's 12* WL and trident crusher/halva tornado etc) and with their skills the damage they push out is insane, even more then Hunter main classes.

Thanks for hosting this and looking at the info properly, was very interesting for sure

[Xaelouse]

Eh, that's the problem. It's class vs. boss instead of weapon vs. boss. Data for the latter would be more useful but that's my opinion

[Kondibon]

Eh, that's the problem. It's class vs. boss instead of weapon vs. boss. Data for the latter would be more useful but that's my opinionMultiple factors are important as was brought up in the weapon tier thread. JUST the weapons wouldn't be useful either because some weapons work better when combined with certain classes or other weapons than the sum of their parts.

[Selphea]

Eh, that's the problem. It's class vs. boss instead of weapon vs. boss. Data for the latter would be more useful but that's my opinion

That would be a different approach, i.e. ask for weapon first and restrict to one weapon, then class/subclass for reference then bosses.

Would be useful for finding out what's good on a given boss as well as give weapons like Gunslash and JB vs DB better representation. On the downside it would also lump for example Fo/Br Banish techs, Br/Hu Kamikaze and Ra/Br into the same group, and block out tactics like Sympho to stagger then switch to Knuckle/Partizan/Wired Lance for BHS/Volg/Current. Hard decision where you lose something either way imo.

And adding the class combo tier list.

Class combos with more than 2 responses:

S (>4.40): Ra/Hu
A (4.00-4.40): Ra/Br, Fi/Hu
B (3.70-4.00): Bo/Hu, Br/Hu, Te/Br, Gu/Ra
C: (<3.70): Hu/Fi, Fo/Te, Te/Hu


Biggest surprises: Gu/Ra is low B tier. I'd have put it at S for solo bossing before End Attract. After End Attract, A, behind Ra/Hu. Also, practically no representation from Fi/Bo (only 1) or Fi/Br, or Bullet Bow Fo/Br (there was a Fo/Br, but didn't check Bow). Every class seems to be there though, just not specific combos.

[Sayara]

TEhu reppaseent \o\
I didnt comment but, TEhu has alot of 4s, but honestly its just time consumin to kill bosses as atehu

or at least as I tehu anyway..

[Selphea]

Looking at all the spreadsheet data, its pretty intresting on the breakdown. Most of the results dont surprise me. Dablo being so high and dragon EX being so low are two for me. Dragon Ex being pretty hard if you dont have insane dps to keep chain stunned, from my own experience. Knight gear/cougar being near top tier again, stupid-ass hit boxes and when lags involved cougar becomes near impossible to time guards properly xD.

Weapon wise, Fi/Hu is pretty much where i thought it'd be. They have access to some amazing HU-class weaponary (Ely-sion, Magatsu's 12* WL and trident crusher/halva tornado etc) and with their skills the damage they push out is insane, even more then Hunter main classes.

Thanks for hosting this and looking at the info properly, was very interesting for sure

Dragon Ex is almost completely defenseless when you break its right arm, maybe that's why.

And np :3 Was fun to do.


TEhu reppaseent \o\
I didnt comment but, TEhu has alot of 4s, but honestly its just time consumin to kill bosses as atehu

or at least as I tehu anyway..

Maybe they use WL/Partizan or something.

[Unnamed Player]

http://v63.imgup.net/342r21c57.png

Why is this below 50% ?????????????????

[LonelyGaruga]

Bosses:


S (3.35): Falke Leone & Vilma Leopard
A (3.36 - 3.59): Diabo Igrythys, Bayaribbles, Plosiorgles, Nepto & Rheo, Cougar NX, Falz Angel, Knight Gear, Zeta Guranz
B (3.60 - 4.06): Bal Rodos, Gal Gryphon, Falz Hunar, Guar Zigmorde, Magatsu, Gigur Gunne-gam, Anga Fundarge, Blu Ringahda
C (4.07 - 4.30): Big Vardha, Biol Meduna, Dark Vibrace, Banther & Banshee, Quartz Dragon, Dragon Ex, Zeshrayda, Falz Loser
D (>4.30): Falz Elder, Vol Dragon, Dark Ragne


Biggest surprises: Facility Rodos is 2 tiers above punching bag status, Nepto & Rheo broke into A rank, up there with UQ bosses and Falz Angel.

What the hell, PSO-W?


Class combos with more than 2 responses:

S (>4.40): Ra/Hu
A (4.00-4.40): Ra/Br, Fi/Hu
B (3.70-4.00): Bo/Hu, Br/Hu, Te/Br, Gu/Ra
C: (<3.70): Hu/Fi, Fo/Te, Te/Hu


Also, practically no representation from Fi/Bo (only 1) or Fi/Br, or Bullet Bow Fo/Br (there was a Fo/Br, but didn't check Bow).

At first, Br/Hu didn't seem too off, since it is a great boss killer with bows. But then I remembered how many katana there were...

>13 katana
>2 bullet bow

Yeah uh, katana isn't comparable to any of these or superior to Hu/Fi and Fo/Te. Thanks PSO-W.

Needless to say, Hu/Fi and Fo/Te being comparable to Te/Hu is also horribly off lmao

Less about the poll and more about Fo/Br and bow usage, Fo/Br has terrible BA combos anyway, no PP regen to speak of and BA doesn't count toward building composite techs.

[Superia]

Biggest surprises: Gu/Ra is low B tier. I'd have put it at S for solo bossing before End Attract. After End Attract, A, behind Ra/Hu.


Perhaps people do not know how to use it. I cannot really imagine it being slower than anything else in the B tier, and probably overtakes at least Ra/Br on aggressive XH bosses. I have not looked at the survey, but did it address perceived killing speed or perceived difficulty of use?

[Selphea]

Perhaps people do not know how to use it. I cannot really imagine it being slower than anything else in the B tier, and probably overtakes at least Ra/Br on aggressive XH bosses. I have not looked at the survey, but did it address perceived killing speed or perceived difficulty of use?

Yea there's a column in the 2nd sheet for average SH kill speed. Gu/Ra got a weighted 1:29 which is actually faster than Fi/Hu but still slower than it could be imo. Might look different if you filtered by respondents with <1 minute SH kill time.

[vantpers]

I have a feeling I didn't interpret the questions there properly when answering. I didn't rate boss difficulty but rather how well my weapons handle them. I gave some bosses 5 because even if they are comparably hard to something other weapons almost all have them harder for example. Some easy bosses I gave 3 just because the breakables/weakpoints are hard to hit for me and I know other weapons have it easier and will kill it faster.

What was the original question anyway, because it didn't imply just pure difficulty for me. Also people like to not as much lie as just interpret things differently here, everyone has a different definition of 5 and 3. Probably pride stopped many people from giving bosses anything less than 3.

[Xaelouse]

BR/HU katana can end up being really powerful against what's considered the most challenging boss here. Those counter bonus skills can really pile up easily. The DPS contribution is amazing over HU/FI's wimpy JG damage

[milranduil]

BR/HU katana can end up being really powerful against what's considered the most challenging boss here. Those counter bonus skills can really pile up easily. The DPS contribution is amazing over HU/FI's wimpy JG damage

That's what automate on HuFi is for though, so you don't have to stop attacking unless a massive damage attack is incoming in which case the boss is probably out of range shortly before anyway. There are some exceptions imo, such as zigmorde, where I prefer katana to hatou between blocks for consistent dps, but most of the time sword kills faster with ease.

[Selphea]

It's difficulty by class so that sounds about right - how hard a boss feels for your chosen classes and weapons.

The idea is that if a boss is indeed harder/easier for other classes as a whole, the other classes would have rated it lower/higher and the average would reflect that.

Everyone does have a different definition of 5 and 3 though. Not sure how to get everyone on the same page

[vantpers]

That's just a rip off of Ignite Parrying or invincible JG into Heavenly Fall spam. Also I feel it's kinda funny how in the data there was one Hu/Br who rated almost everything 5.00 but has average SH kill time of 2.00. Kinda shows that people interpret things differently.

And Hu/Fi somehow manages to have lower SH kill times than Fi/Hu.

[isCasted]

As it's been said, different people interpret numerical values of difficulty differently. Someone can hate everything that isn't cakewalk for them (even if they are capable of killing harder stuff), others can go masochistic and enjoy every death they take.

Another thing: should my rating be based on how much damage can boss deal to me, or how slow fight can be, or something else? For example, as Hu/Fi I have an option to utilize all of my weapons to bring boss down quickly, or I can pop Massive Hunter and spam Sword PAs and boss will be just as dead (it's slower that way, but it requires far less effort).

Fo/Te (and Hu/Fi, for that matter) being at C-tier is rather surprising to me. Maybe I'm just a one weirdo who mastered Ice instead of Fire. Still, Compound Techs are broken as hell - you don't need Weak Bullet or 13* weapon to mess up any boss with Formelgion or Barantsion.

[Zyrusticae]

http://v63.imgup.net/342r21c57.png

Why is this below 50% ?????????????????
Because a significant number of players have suboptimal playstyles, suboptimal gear, and only play the game a small amount rather than putting in several hours a day/tens of hours a week.


What the hell, PSO-W?

At first, Br/Hu didn't seem too off, since it is a great boss killer with bows. But then I remembered how many katana there were...

>13 katana
>2 bullet bow

Yeah uh, katana isn't comparable to any of these or superior to Hu/Fi and Fo/Te. Thanks PSO-W.
Form over function, baby! Style over practicality! Those are the rules any real and proper Braver lives by!

Seriously tho, most players just don't give enough shits about efficiency to do something that's less fun to them. Fun > all, naturally, even if it does mean you spend a bit more time whacking on any boss.

[LonelyGaruga]

I don't think I'll ever get the whole "playing efficiently is unfun!" camp, but whatever. Real question is, why are these same people participating in surveys and knowingly mucking up the results in doing so.

But that doesn't have anything to do with comparing how classes perform relative to each other, so no, that's not it.

[FantasyHeaven]

Fo/Te (and Hu/Fi, for that matter) being at C-tier is rather surprising to me. Maybe I'm just a one weirdo who mastered Ice instead of Fire. Still, Compound Techs are broken as hell - you don't need Weak Bullet or 13* weapon to mess up any boss with Formelgion or Barantsion.
Fo/Te just seems to take forever to kill anything and the damage is very subpar if you don't have a top tier 13* yet (I opted for Fi weapons). I tried out ice Fo/Br with rikauteri and queen vera, and I kill most bosses in one combo now even without compound techs. The pp advantage from Te is pretty much null with queen vera in the picture.

[milranduil]

Form over function, baby! Style over practicality! Those are the rules any real and proper Braver lives by!

Speak for yourself . 3.

Fo/Te just seems to take forever to kill anything and the damage is very subpar if you don't have a top tier 13* yet (I opted for Fi weapons). I tried out ice Fo/Br with rikauteri and queen vera, and I kill most bosses in one combo now even without compound techs. The pp advantage from Te is pretty much null with queen vera in the picture.

What exactly are you doing as FoTe that it takes a while to kill bosses? Can we get an example/context here?

[LonelyGaruga]

Fo/Te just seems to take forever to kill anything and the damage is very subpar if you don't have a top tier 13* yet (I opted for Fi weapons).

Even without a 13* Fo/Te can do things like 80K Ragrants, 75K Gimegid, and 400K Ilbarta finishes. This isn't "subpar" considering Br/Hu is doing like 100K with a full weak point Hatou at about half the speed of Ragrants/Gimegid, and Sakura is hitting about 60-65K at similar speeds, yet somehow ranked above Fo/Te.

x2 Weak point damage and estimated/rounded numbers btw

[Selphea]

Well looking at Fo/Te matchups, the <3.5s are:


Leone & Leopard - Not Ice/Dark/Light-weak and hyperactive, understandable
Cougar NX - as above
Guranz - Not really hyperactive although still resistant to most Fo/Te boss killers. Charge Safoie and it could spin away or something.
Magatsu - FoTe actually scores higher than BrHu here but still shouldn't be higher than Bouncer/Gunner/Ranger/FiHu/TeBr IMO
Siorg - Has Ilbarta but maybe their aggressiveness makes it harder to land 7 hits? My guess is most players don't do the Serafi/Talis or Elysion/Talis tactic.
Bayari - As above
Nepto & Rheo - As above
Knight Gear - Should be easy to lob Safoies at it.
Gryphon - Maybe I guess? Moves a lot and resists most boss killers.
Vardha - o_O
Vibrace - o_O


Some bad matchups make sense but looks like FoTe might be underrepresented like GuRa, because of the expense involved in multi skill trees + rainbow weapons + tech crafting.

But looking at the meta builds i.e. HuFi, FiHu, RaHu / RaBr, GuRa, FoTe, TeBr, BrHu / FiBr, BoHu / FiBo, I'd say even at higher levels of play Fi, Ra, Gu, Te with Br, and Bo should be higher. Possibly BrHu with Bow as well.

I wouldn't say the results are mucked up, they just represent low to mid-level play which does tend to differ from high-level. High-level representation shouldn't be done with a survey though, but by getting a bunch of known top players to sit down together for hours to hammer out a list.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't think I'll ever get the whole "playing efficiently is unfun!" camp, but whatever. Real question is, why are these same people participating in surveys and knowingly mucking up the results in doing so.

But that doesn't have anything to do with comparing how classes perform relative to each other, so no, that's not it.
I'm just saying that bias as to how entertaining a class can be can mess with peoples' perceptions of relative difficulty. Some folks will never commit to a powerful class if they perceive that class as boring and dull as rocks to play.

And, of course, there's a natural self-selection bias at play here, since it IS a popular class combo and people will respond with that class combo more frequently as a result.

[yoshiblue]

It was a pretty broad poll. You're going to have to be more specific with them if you want to narrow your results. Same with being very careful in how you word your poll's questions.

Never the less, many thanks for taking time to put this together, Selphea.

[LonelyGaruga]

Well looking at Fo/Te matchups, the <3.5s are:


Leone & Leopard - Not Ice/Dark/Light-weak and hyperactive, understandable
Cougar NX - as above
Guranz - Not really hyperactive although still resistant to most Fo/Te boss killers. Charge Safoie and it could spin away or something.
Magatsu - FoTe actually scores higher than BrHu here but still shouldn't be higher than Bouncer/Gunner/Ranger/FiHu/TeBr IMO
Siorg - Has Ilbarta but maybe their aggressiveness makes it harder to land 7 hits? My guess is most players don't do the Serafi/Talis or Elysion/Talis tactic.
Bayari - As above
Nepto & Rheo - As above
Knight Gear - Should be easy to lob Safoies at it.
Gryphon - Maybe I guess? Moves a lot and resists most boss killers.
Vardha - o_O
Vibrace - o_O


Some bad matchups make sense but looks like FoTe might be underrepresented like GuRa, because of the expense involved in multi skill trees + rainbow weapons + tech crafting.

But looking at the meta builds i.e. HuFi, FiHu, RaHu / RaBr, GuRa, FoTe, TeBr, BrHu / FiBr, BoHu / FiBo, I'd say even at higher levels of play Fi, Ra, Gu, Te with Br, and Bo should be higher. Possibly BrHu with Bow as well.

I wouldn't say the results are mucked up, they just represent low to mid-level play which does tend to differ from high-level. High-level representation shouldn't be done with a survey though, but by getting a bunch of known top players to sit down together for hours to hammer out a list.

The Ultimate bosses and Magatsu are the only ones that are really justified. Cougar has like no health and Sazonde spam is actually rather effective, Knight Gear sprawls itself out when shocked in a way that lets you land every single hit on Zandeon, Gryphon is weak to both sides of Zandeon (which means an extra 44% damage compared to an enemy with only lightning or wind weakness), stays down forever when shocked, and gets shock/trip locked eternally in MPAs (fastest personal run is 20s!), and Rheo and Nepto are both waaaay too passive to be justified, unless we're talking like Ocean Menace where the infection cores alone can insta-gib a base HP Fo/Te if every hit connects. Facility Exploration Rheo dies in one Ilbarta chain, which often happens before it even gets close enough to attack. Nepto takes like, two chains, and only by virtue of not having an immediately available weak point. I don't think Big Vardha needs any explanation considering there's a video of a Fo/Te soloing Mad Mech Awakening by just standing on it and spamming talis Gimegid on the core with zero risk of being hit.

Dark Vibras Yuga is virtually immune to panic but it's not an especially dangerous fight, although it does have a truly absurd amount of HP. At level 80? 23.76m. Dark Falz Loser has 25m. For that I'm giving it a pass, since I don't know how many people said solo or not.

And about the survey, I guess so. I mean it was for fun after all. I just feel like the minimum skill level seems to be too low around here. Expected better of people, you know?

[SteelMaverick]

It should be mentioned that all Ult bosses have something like a 15 to 20% resistance to non-weak elements. Not so much of a problem in Ult Nab, but a rather big one in Ult Lilipa and if people's guesses are correct, lightning weak Ult Amduscia (provided shock doesn't induce some long stun effect).

It also feels as though Fo/Te bossing comes down to gear really, at least when it comes to Ice technics. We all saw what a huge difference 60 Ele Ice Ideal Talis + Boots of Seraphi made against Nepto/Rheo versus that 12 star Ult Nab Rod + Queen Vera during the Arks exhibition match. 52 seconds (just a little bit under that magical 1 minute timer mind you) versus around 1 minute 38 (almost twice as slow).

[milranduil]

Both methods are inferior to nifta + zanverse + fomelgion which one shots the pair.

[Vatallus]

I don't think I'll ever get the whole "playing efficiently is unfun!" camp, but whatever. Real question is, why are these same people participating in surveys and knowingly mucking up the results in doing so.

But that doesn't have anything to do with comparing how classes perform relative to each other, so no, that's not it.

Depending on context I either agree or don't agree. If you mean playing your chosen class efficently. I agree. If you mean everyone using Ra/Br and bows at Magatsu I might have to disagree about that being fun.

It usually isn't fun being told that X class is better than your class so you should use X class, but when it comes to players that won't even use their chosen class efficently then that is a whole new ball park.

[LonelyGaruga]

It usually isn't fun being told that X class is better than your class so you should use X class, but when it comes to players that won't even use their chosen class efficently then that is a whole new ball park.

This is what I mean. I wouldn't even say anything about someone taking Gunner or whatever into TD as long as they were playing Gunner the best they could.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

This is what I mean. I wouldn't even say anything about someone taking Gunner or whatever into TD as long as they were playing Gunner the best they could.

And your opinion on katana centric bravers is...?

[Superia]

And your opinion on katana centric bravers is...?

"Katanas were a mistake."

[Zyrusticae]

I was only speaking with regards to Bravers using katanas instead of bows on bosses, not playing like an idiot for the hell of it.

[RealKillaK]

It usually isn't fun being told that X class is better than your class so you should use X class, but when it comes to players that won't even use their chosen class efficently then that is a whole new ball park.
So you dont like being told the truth? I dont see whats wrong with being told that "FoTe is better than BrHu for TD". Also you can't say what's fun and what's since I personal found everyone using Ra/Br for Magatsu fun trying to see how fast we could kill and how many runs we can get.(even though ra/br didnt do anything much anyways)

[femme fatale]

dunno how people enjoy playing like garbage

[LonelyGaruga]

And your opinion on katana centric bravers is...?

Use a bow when it's preferable. Stick with katana otherwise. I still have a few more levels to go for points in S-ATK (got every katana skill and maxed Average branch though) but so far my experience with Br/Hu has been incredibly underwhelming as far as katana bossing ability goes (60 element +20'd Xie katana here). I don't know how you can find it acceptable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm running level 71+ SHAQs to disc hunt and bosses still go down in like 2m but that's incredibly slow compared to what I'm used to. Haven't had a chance to test bow yet (can't equip Ares Bow which isn't even max element anyway, 50K CM away from 60 element Ideal Shooter :/), but I'm preeetty confident a weapon that outputs at least twice as much damage going off videos is gonna be much faster for getting kills.


I was only speaking with regards to Bravers using katanas instead of bows on bosses, not playing like an idiot for the hell of it.

I don't remember anyone saying otherwise. Or replying to you in the first place.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't remember anyone saying otherwise. Or replying to you in the first place.
Yeesh, testy. So this post wasn't a reply to my post directly above?

I don't think I'll ever get the whole "playing efficiently is unfun!" camp, but whatever. Real question is, why are these same people participating in surveys and knowingly mucking up the results in doing so.

But that doesn't have anything to do with comparing how classes perform relative to each other, so no, that's not it.
:-?

Either way, my response is the same: people gravitating to whatever class they think is the coolest, and I'll add that maybe, just possibly, they end up not playing enough of all the other classes to rank them on a scale properly. Them's the breaks, as they say.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Use a bow when it's preferable. Stick with katana otherwise. I still have a few more levels to go for points in S-ATK (got every katana skill and maxed Average branch though) but so far my experience with Br/Hu has been incredibly underwhelming as far as katana bossing ability goes (60 element +20'd Xie katana here). I don't know how you can find it acceptable.

Snarky response would be to say 'by not sucking'.

Anyway, I use ideal. Literally everything SH dies in ~20-25 seconds at most, including nepto+oily lizard. Gigur gunne-whateverhisnameis being an obvious exception for obvious reasons. Rodos dies in one down phase.

I find it more than acceptable.

There's still those vague katana gear buffs in the near future, and with a gear update next boost day, I could have an extra 300 atk to bring myself over 3k unbuffed S atk with ideal karen.

[Selphea]

Snarky response would be to say 'by not sucking'.

Anyway, I use ideal. Literally everything SH dies in ~20-25 seconds at most, including nepto+oily lizard. Gigur gunne-whateverhisnameis being an obvious exception for obvious reasons. Rodos dies in one down phase.

I find it more than acceptable.

There's still those vague katana gear buffs in the near future, and with a gear update next boost day, I could have an extra 300 atk to bring myself over 3k unbuffed S atk with ideal karen.

What do you think of the bad matchups voted by BrHu players? Magatsu, Bayari, Siorg and Facility Rodos, let's say an infected Dominus in XH Oceanic Menace? Would they be troublesome even with Ideal?

[LonelyGaruga]

Yeesh, testy. So this post wasn't a reply to my post directly above?

:-?

Either way, my response is the same: people gravitating to whatever class they think is the coolest, and I'll add that maybe, just possibly, they end up not playing enough of all the other classes to rank them on a scale properly. Them's the breaks, as they say.

Ah, actually that was a reply to the one above your last post. You posted, I replied, you replied, I didn't reply to that one, and then you posted again. It looked like a non-sequiter since nobody seemed to have said anything that warranted clarification on your end. Bad communication I guess!

Guess so. I simply thought people talked and read a lot more about other classes than they seem to.


Snarky response would be to say 'by not sucking'.

Anyway, I use ideal. Literally everything SH dies in ~20-25 seconds at most, including nepto+oily lizard. Gigur gunne-whateverhisnameis being an obvious exception for obvious reasons. Rodos dies in one down phase.

I find it more than acceptable.

I'm going off of XH content and actually comparing with other classes, but thanks anyway I guess.

As a Fo/Te, I'm outputting about 150K per second with Ragrants/Gimegid and 900K-1m per composite tech (x2 weak points). If you can compete as Br/Hu then yeah I guess I do suck.

Don't know what you're thinking by bringing up future buffs when talking about present content, so not replying to that.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

What do you think of the bad matchups voted by BrHu players? Magatsu, Bayari, Siorg and Facility Rodos, let's say an infected Dominus in XH Oceanic Menace? Would they be troublesome even with Ideal?

They still are unfavorable because of out-of-reach WPs, and hatou vs magatsu needs no further explaining at this point. Guren-tessen does at least make staying level with siorg's weak point alot easier.

XH rodos turns into an annoying waiting game because of the usual 'out of reach'.



I'm going off of XH content and actually comparing with other classes, but thanks anyway I guess.

Should make that clear in a discussion about a survey that uses SH as the bar, and doubly so when alot of the game's content is still at SH level then.


As a Fo/Te, I'm outputting about 150K per second with Ragrants/Gimegid and 900K-1m per composite tech (x2 weak points). If you can compete as Br/Hu then yeah I guess I do suck.

Don't know what you're thinking by bringing up future buffs when talking about present content, so not replying to that.

I was responding to your implied disdain of the number of katana-using Br/Hus vs bow users under SH conditions (which this survey is based on), where the differences don't really matter.


PS: XH kuron boss isn't a terrible fight for katana users. She goes down in about a minute and a half solo.

[femme fatale]

can someone tell me what was the point of this survey?

all these useless arguments, bruh...

[Selphea]

IDK someone mentioned something about a tier list in some thread somewhere way back which led to a weapons tier list thread and a bosses tier list thread...

But it's interesting to see where people think different bosses/classes stand.

To solve the arguments we could do a high-level matchup chart. Would be a different format than a survey. I'd need a panel of brave volunteers willing to stake their name on the accuracy of this thing - no anonymity, tighter standards. Decide on a standard list of class combos to represent each class, standardize the definition of 1-5 and then fill it out manually, cell by cell.

Also, include Chrome Dragon whom I somehow forgot.

[Vatallus]

This is what I mean. I wouldn't even say anything about someone taking Gunner or whatever into TD as long as they were playing Gunner the best they could.

I understand. I agree then. I think I've played every class setup so far except melee Techer. While I may not be better than average in some of them I do try my best with what I use at the time.

... Unlike those people sitting on the guns in Magatsu when they should be jumping up and bashing him with the rest of us. You know who you are. >.>

[Superia]

IDK someone mentioned something about a tier list in some thread somewhere way back


I think someone said "DBs are the worst weapons ever in every situation" or something similar, and for some reason I wanted to know what other people thought about how weapons (and the classes that used them) stacked up to each other.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://jesusfuck.me/di/869P/it-was-me-barry.jpg[/SPOILER-BOX]

[Zyrusticae]

Bosses:


S (3.35): Falke Leone & Vilma Leopard
A (3.36 - 3.59): Diabo Igrythys, Bayaribbles, Plosiorgles, Nepto & Rheo, Cougar NX, Falz Angel, Knight Gear, Zeta Guranz
B (3.60 - 4.06): Bal Rodos, Gal Gryphon, Falz Hunar, Guar Zigmorde, Magatsu, Gigur Gunne-gam, Anga Fundarge, Blu Ringahda
C (4.07 - 4.30): Big Vardha, Biol Meduna, Dark Vibrace, Banther & Banshee, Quartz Dragon, Dragon Ex, Zeshrayda, Falz Loser
D (>4.30): Falz Elder, Vol Dragon, Dark Ragne
Just going to take a moment to note how much this list correlates with the date of release of each of these bosses.

On the one hand, yes, newer bosses have some mechanics that are definitely more difficult to deal with compared to older ones. But on the other hand, when you've literally had years of practice on the older bosses with which to trivialize their move sets, is it really a fair comparison?

This is especially true for Banther & Banshee as well as Quartz Dragon, both of whom used to be regarded as highly challenging bosses - at least before everyone got used to their move sets and learned to counter them. Exposure certainly counts for a lot here, I think.

Literally every boss in tier C and D are over a year and some change old. None of the newer bosses show up in the lower tiers. I don't really believe that all of the newer bosses are automatically more difficult than the old ones. I mean, mechanically Gigur Gunne-gam is certainly not more difficult to deal with than Quartz Dragon. Unless people just really have a hard time dealing with the camera height or something. I think this is a prime example of people just not being that familiar with one boss versus another, and that coloring their perception of the fight's difficulty.

It'd be interesting to see how much the list would change a year from now. I get the feeling there'd be some major reshuffling going around, but the older bosses are likely to always be near the bottom.

[LonelyGaruga]

Should make that clear in a discussion about a survey that uses SH as the bar, and doubly so when alot of the game's content is still at SH level then.

I was responding to your implied disdain of the number of katana-using Br/Hus vs bow users under SH conditions (which this survey is based on), where the differences don't really matter.

PS: XH kuron boss isn't a terrible fight for katana users. She goes down in about a minute and a half solo.

I didn't make what clear?


Don't get me wrong, I'm running level 71+ SHAQs to disc hunt and bosses still go down in like 2m but that's incredibly slow compared to what I'm used to.

71 is when XH begins.

Anyway, my opinion on katana Br/Hu's performance in the survey and my personal experience of katana Br/Hu in XH are two different subjects actually. But in both cases, bow Br/Hu is faster by a significant margin. Since you bring up the Kuronia boss, here's a 50s kill with bow Br/Hu (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26913187). Almost twice as fast as katana, and the Kuronia boss is one of the best for katana since the counter is katana's best DPS option by a wide margin. And to really hammer in how slow katana is, here's a 41s Fo/Te Guar run (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26966476). Lightning/wind tree so doesn't work well in XH Kuronia, so here's a 50s one (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26939282) with fire/dark. The best run I could find for katana on Nico is, indeed, a minute and a half long. Comparatively speaking, yes, that is kinda slow.

[Zyrusticae]

That certainly goes a long way to explaining why they're talking about buffing katana gear.

Would rather they just touch the PAs though. Makes me wonder if the Shunka nerf was just unnecessary.

[isCasted]

IMO Katanas were balanced just right with all the adjustments that came with Shunka nerf. I found myself using pretty much all PAs except for Fudou, and that was really satisfying.

Katana felt incredibly boring to me before Shunka nerf (and even before its introduction), and that brief period between nerf and EP3 rebalancing was when it actually felt like a diverse, fun and strong weapon. EP3 rendered half its PAs worthless again.

Counter Edge was a fun little addition to Katana counters (it wasn't necessary, but it works), but then they suddenly buffed it for no reason, and now there's more buffs for exact same thing? Just what is happening in their minds?

[Xaelouse]

People wanted to represent katana, despite whether or not something else kills faster. Again, if this survey was more strictly weapon vs boss we wouldn't have such stupid arguments and instead learn more out of this.
If the class included both bow/katana, or the 5-6 weapons FI and HU usually can take advantage of, then there would be a lot of 4-5 listed for each boss which tells people nothing.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I didn't make what clear?



71 is when XH begins.

Anyway, my opinion on katana Br/Hu's performance in the survey and my personal experience of katana Br/Hu in XH are two different subjects actually. But in both cases, bow Br/Hu is faster by a significant margin. Since you bring up the Kuronia boss, here's a 50s kill with bow Br/Hu (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26913187). Almost twice as fast as katana, and the Kuronia boss is one of the best for katana since the counter is katana's best DPS option by a wide margin. And to really hammer in how slow katana is, here's a 41s Fo/Te Guar run (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26966476). Lightning/wind tree so doesn't work well in XH Kuronia, so here's a 50s one (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm26939282) with fire/dark. The best run I could find for katana on Nico is, indeed, a minute and a half long. Comparatively speaking, yes, that is kinda slow.

For confirmation, did you not say the boss' glass-thing is entirely separate from her actual HP?

The fastest times tend to involve ignoring the glass to some degree, though not completely. Katana users are damn-near obligated to attack it.

Point is katanas aren't truly weak. We just have encounters like bayari, magatsu, and zigmor or w/e her name is to make it harder on anything that can't lock on to a more preferable point/cheese it. XH hp inflates the efficiency gap. May as well make em hit harder if PAs don't address the limits (ilbarta, sat cannon, gimegid, symphonic drive are good examples of what katanas can't do).


That certainly goes a long way to explaining why they're talking about buffing katana gear.

Would rather they just touch the PAs though. Makes me wonder if the Shunka nerf was just unnecessary.

It was still episode 2, when just about everything else sans Gu/Hu was sorta mediocre in base defense.

I said it before, if shunka got almost all of the damage it lost back now in EP3, not many people would really complain.

[LonelyGaruga]

Point is katanas aren't truly weak. We just have encounters like bayari, magatsu, and zigmor or w/e her name is to make it harder on anything that can't lock on to a more preferable point/cheese it. XH hp inflates the efficiency gap. May as well make em hit harder if PAs don't address the limits (ilbarta, sat cannon, gimegid, symphonic drive are good examples of what katanas can't do).

The lack of good bossing tools is exactly why katana are comparatively bad at bosses in the first place (please note that I never said they were weak, just worse than other classes). You don't see the problem with saying this?

About Guar, while the mirror is separate from its HP, it opens up a 30% weak point but only has 25% of Guar's HP. Having to attack the mirror is not really a disadvantage so much as an alternate strategy. Stuff like sword Hu/Fi and katana Br/Hu would probably want to attack the mirror regardless of whether they could skip it or not simply because Ignite Parrying and the katana counter are excellent DPS options.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The lack of good bossing tools is exactly why katana are comparatively bad at bosses in the first place (please note that I never said they were weak, just worse than other classes). You don't see the problem with saying this?


I literally just agreed with you for XH+. Katanas aren't bad at bossing in general. They just don't trivialize things that can actually fight back via ilbarta cheese, gimegid cheese, etc.