Ultimate Naberius being made easier

[Maenara]

Fucking why

http://www.bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-return-to-ultimate-naberius-on-september-24th/

Should have known Sega couldn't leave the difficulty of one of the only challenging places in the game alone.

[TaigaUC]

Any news about making it more fun?

[Shadowth117]

To be fair, Ult is more about giving enemies absurd amounts of health and overwhelming the player with large amounts of said enemies in order to force playing in MPA's. If you're playing it how it was intended, "challenging" wouldn't be the word I would use. After all, with enough people, a lot of times Ult stuff seems to melt as fast as usual enemies. Granted the enemies at least have had much more mean AI patterns, but that's not really saying much with what we start with. You can still literally run away from any of them which is a bit sad.

[Kondibon]

It's not like challenge really means anything. Especially when it's just a case of things having way too much hp and overwhelming you. No amount of "git gud" can save you from getting hit from 5 directions at once unless you're just cheesing things out, which isn't exactly engaging gameplay for something you're meant to be grinding.

[WEED420BLAZEIT]

but "getting rekt easily if you are swarmed by ult mobs/bosses" is the main appeal of ultimate quests....


well we still don't know how much easier it will be tbh

and look at those 13* slave recolors...and more stones to collect(250 x 4 for 60, one stone per run)

#magic stones collector online 2

[Kondibon]

but "getting rekt easily if you are swarmed by ult mobs/bosses" is the main appeal of ultimate quests....

Any news about making it more fun?
http://i.imgur.com/AEDyXrG.png

[[Ayumi]]

but "getting rekt easily if you are swarmed by ult mobs/bosses" is the main appeal of ultimate quests....


well we still don't know how much easier it will be tbh

and look at those 13* slave recolors...and more stones to collect(250 x 4 for 60, one stone per run)

#magic stones collector online 2

I could solo Ult as a Techer, Gunner, or Force. Yeah it takes a long as time, but you can easily get away from getting swarmed.
Honestly, the only appeal it had for me were the PAs at level 17. I didn't find it fun.
Oh, I almost forgot. And getting compound techs.
Other than that I never cared for Ult. Seeing as it's getting "Easier" and getting one wep I want (Fender) I'll play it for... not sure how long before I get tired of hunting for it.

[Achelousaurus]

Fucking why

http://www.bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-return-to-ultimate-naberius-on-september-24th/

Should have known Sega couldn't leave the difficulty of one of the only challenging places in the game alone.
It was only challenging in the same way you make a game harder by removing save options.
I.e. poor mechanics that made it inconvenient and annoying and only as a side effect raised difficulty.

Until now ult Naberius never was anything but a chore.
But I hope with this balance fix it can actually get fun.

And apparently the new 13* weapons all have 49 more base attack than Slave.
That's off to a very good start. Now lets just hope the potentials are also as good.

[Maenara]

And apparently the new 13* weapons all have 49 more base attack than Slave.
That's off to a very good start. Now lets just hope the potentials are also as good.

Potential is "Increases damage to Darkers and DA-Aberrations."

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Not sure if trolling.

I'm at least 90% sure a bunch of other people said the same thing, but it was more of a chore, and a tiring visual overload.

It was a run-in-circle EQ that rewarded you nothing outside of killing anga for RNG 13* which manages to give an unlucky set of people nothing after thousands of kills.

The only difficulty in ult nab is how cheap every enemy can be en-masse with infection cores, juggles, CC immunity, stunlocks. Most of which is negated by having enough ice FOs, aka being just as cheap.


Any news about making it more fun?

Taiga gets it.

[Dammy]

And apparently the new 13* weapons all have 49 more base attack than Slave.
That's off to a very good start. Now lets just hope the potentials are also as good.

i think you counting affixes
attack 3+mutation+ability 3, thats 55 extra

[Maenara]

Not sure if trolling.

I'm at least 90% sure a bunch of other people said the same thing, but it was more of a chore, and a tiring visual overload.

It was a run-in-circle EQ that rewarded you nothing outside of killing anga for RNG 13* which manages to give an unlucky set of people nothing after thousands of kills.

The only difficulty in ult nab is how cheap every enemy can be en-masse with infection cores, juggles, CC immunity, stunlocks. Most of which is negated by having enough ice FOs, aka being just as cheap.



Taiga gets it.

At least one can derive fun from a challenge.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

At least one can derive fun from a challenge.

Never said one can't.

Beating on HP sponges who can't fight back due to stunlock/easy to dodge for excessive amounts of time isn't fun.

Getting mobbed, and being rendered unable to fight back isn't fun.

It's a tedious, and annoying experience after a while. It's challenging in the same sense basic office work is.

[Maenara]

Never said one can't.

Beating on HP sponges who can't fight back due to stunlock/easy to dodge for excessive amounts of time isn't fun.

Getting mobbed, and being rendered unable to fight back isn't fun.

It's a tedious, and annoying experience after a while. It's challenging in the same sense basic office work is.

One on one, bosses like Diabo and Bayaribbles can be some of the most fun in the game specifically because they do fight back, and because you can't flinchlock them.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

One on one, bosses like Diabo and Bayaribbles can be some of the most fun in the game specifically because they do fight back, and because you can't flinchlock them.

They're fun sure. The rest of ult nab isn't, nor is the rest of ult nab rewarding... which is the problem.

[Hysteria1987]

Gotta agree there, the mobs are a chore because they sponge up so much damage, but Diabo can be legitimately scary and I hope they don't change that part of it too much.

Frankly I'd like to see mobs have a bit less HP and perhaps be even more swarmy (the current aggression they put out is good though), and I'd like whole MPA's to properly fear boss spawns :P That'd make Ult for me. I'm doing Ult Lillipa at the moment as my GU/RA, and that one's almost got the opposite problem with the way everyone's adapted to it over time, it's actually a pretty nice way to relax after a day at work now.

[Cyber Meteor]

They're probably preparing the area for the next story quest which will take place in Corrupted Naberius so maybe we'll have to find gold/blue events into that area which would be pretty annoying if they leave the difficulty as it is.:-? Also be sure that Lillipa will get a nerf too, and Ult Amduscia will come in a different form than Nab or Lilipa, maybe already scaled down to those readjustments or maybe something else, who knows?

[Poyonche]

Watch Ult. Amduscia being a TA quest.

[Skornedemon]

So do we have confirmation it's being made easier? Anytime I see info on it, all it says is 'change AI and stats'. Usually that's all SEGA ever says for these things. That also never states its a nerf, could also be a buff to enemies (oh god no thanks)

[KazukiQZ]

Potential is "Increases damage to Darkers and DA-Aberrations."
Is this confirmed though? Because from the list of new potentials before, there's one that say 'Increase damage if HP is 60% or above'. Unless this is confirmed to be Final Fender's potential?

[final_attack]

Probably making the AI not doing "Infinite Spinning Full Body Slam" or can be the opposite :wacko:

[Maenara]

Is this confirmed though? Because from the list of new potentials before, there's one that say 'Increase damage if HP is 60% or above'. Unless this is confirmed to be Final Fender's potential?

Nemesis weapons are officially stated to be the best anti-Darker weapons. It would make sense for Final Fender's potential to be an upgraded Perfect Keeper latent.

[Shinamori]

Where'd did you get the confirmation?

[Poyonche]

G-Heaven. :wacko:

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2015/08/150818a.html

[Maenara]

Where'd did you get the confirmation?

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2015/08/150818a.html

edit: ninja'd

[Shinamori]

Seems like it not really worth it imo.

[Maenara]

Seems like it not really worth it imo.

You don't know the values, and things like Profound Darkness are coming, which is gonna be a DA-Aberration.

[Poyonche]

Speaking about Profound Darkness, g-heaven also wrote something about Double and it. :wacko:

[TaigaUC]

Swamping the screen with clusterfuck isn't really fun for me. JP friends have expressed the same.
I was reading the comments about this over at Bumped and it seemed like nobody is concerned about whether it's fun, just whether the rare drops are like other MMOS.

That's the whole problem with most people.
They are completely fine with garbage, because they've never experienced better and can't imagine better.
Then they go around attacking anyone who has seen better.

So, how would I make Ultimate more interesting?
Well, I would try to make it more about beating tough bosses one at a time.
Making the battlefield an untrackable nightmare isn't enjoyable. It is basically like this:
[spoiler-box]http://i60.tinypic.com/28gvw3a.jpg[/spoiler-box]
And this (https://twitter.com/maidoll/status/625408393671348224).

But if it's more about single bosses, then there are the same inherent PSO2 problems:
1. If it doesn't have a billion HP, it will be trivial, and a billion HP makes bosses boring.
2. Everyone just wants the rare drops, so they are going to be playing like shit or rushing like crazy, which makes fights unenjoyable.
3. Boost tickets further make people eager to rush rush rush. They will probably just find a way to spawn the boss they want quickly and farm it with optimal class combo.
4. I'm sure there's more. But hey, at least they won't have to wait for EQs of it to pop.

What to do then? Well, first, it'd be nice if the primary incentive to play Ultimate is because it's fun, not because it gives fat loots.
Gameplay wise? Ultimate needs to be something new and different, I think. I'd need to experiment to figure out what.
As it is now, it's just the regular game with slightly different enemies that fill the screen with crap.

I only played up until the start of Ultimate in PSO1. Solo and offline only.
I just remember tons of Tokkas everywhere with a bazillion HP that hit hard as nuts.
The sad part is I probably prefer that to PSO2's Ultimate.

[SolRiver]

i still miss the ult seabed in pso1. Invisible signo? 1 shot kill megid? 2 delbiter flying across the room? all of them at once? Then a bad ass boss at the end to wrap it up? Yes please. I am starting to think having a safe zone in pso1 was actually a good mechanic. When shit hit the fan, the survivor can run to safe zone, and re-gather their thought to go back and somehow moon rez the dead; feel like a hero after that. (too bad i am the one dead most of the time... damn invisible signo crit 1 shot my force from the back)

for now, I personally think pso2 enemies need to at least be better at using aliments to slow down players. Might want to make aliment multi-anti to remove while at it.

[TaigaUC]

Ultimate uses the most boring PSO2 system too, "kill stuff for points then restart". Hope decent shit actually spawns!
There is nothing f**king satisfying or challenging about that. It also discourages people from fighting the end boss, if there is one.

[[Ayumi]]

[SPOILER-BOX]Swamping the screen with clusterfuck isn't really fun for me. JP friends have expressed the same.
I was reading the comments about this over at Bumped and it seemed like nobody is concerned about whether it's fun, just whether the rare drops are like other MMOS.

That's the whole problem with most people.
They are completely fine with garbage, because they've never experienced better and can't imagine better.
Then they go around attacking anyone who has seen better.

So, how would I make Ultimate more interesting?
Well, I would try to make it more about beating tough bosses one at a time.
Making the battlefield an untrackable nightmare isn't enjoyable. It is basically like this:
[spoiler-box]http://i60.tinypic.com/28gvw3a.jpg[/spoiler-box]
And this (https://twitter.com/maidoll/status/625408393671348224).

But if it's more about single bosses, then there are the same inherent PSO2 problems:
1. If it doesn't have a billion HP, it will be trivial, and a billion HP makes bosses boring.
2. Everyone just wants the rare drops, so they are going to be playing like shit or rushing like crazy, which makes fights unenjoyable.
3. Boost tickets further make people eager to rush rush rush. They will probably just find a way to spawn the boss they want quickly and farm it with optimal class combo.
4. I'm sure there's more. But hey, at least they won't have to wait for EQs of it to pop.

What to do then? Well, first, it'd be nice if the primary incentive to play Ultimate is because it's fun, not because it gives fat loots.
Gameplay wise? Ultimate needs to be something new and different, I think. I'd need to experiment to figure out what.
As it is now, it's just the regular game with slightly different enemies that fill the screen with crap.

I only played up until the start of Ultimate in PSO1. Solo and offline only.
I just remember tons of Tokkas everywhere with a bazillion HP that hit hard as nuts.
The sad part is I probably prefer that to PSO2's Ultimate.[/SPOILER-BOX]

The thing is Sega will never learn and none of this will ever happen.
I'm simply going to follow the sheep for maybe a few days to see if I can get the Final Fender (that's the name?) to drop. If not, I just won't touch Ult Forest again... unless a new compound comes out or something.


Ultimate uses the most boring PSO2 system too, "kill stuff for points then restart". Hope decent shit actually spawns!
There is nothing f**king satisfying or challenging about that. It also discourages people from fighting the end boss, if there is one.
People not beating the Kuron Explore no more? People were doing it because "I NEED STONES! I WANT STONES!!!!"

[Shadowstarkirby]

Shit tons of tanky stun spam enemies =/= challenging.

Besides Naberius having next to no rewards minus the sliver of a chance getting an Anga Weapon from a single enemy that may or may not spawn, filling a room with enemies having more HP than anyone can reasonably deal with while also giving them an ungodly amount of stuns and knockdowns isn't fun at all, it's frustrating, boring, and makes players result in having to cheese the content to get anything done within a reasonable amount time, and eventually abandoning it to the point where the only time you're able to get an MPA is if you plan for one via PSO World or Reddit.

[un1t27]

It was only challenging in the same way you make a game harder by removing save options.
I.e. poor mechanics that made it inconvenient and annoying and only as a side effect raised difficulty.

Until now ult Naberius never was anything but a chore.
But I hope with this balance fix it can actually get fun.

And apparently the new 13* weapons all have 49 more base attack than Slave.
That's off to a very good start. Now lets just hope the potentials are also as good.


That pot sucks.. so it doesn't matter.

[Ezodagrom]

Swamping the screen with clusterfuck isn't really fun for me. JP friends have expressed the same.
I was reading the comments about this over at Bumped and it seemed like nobody is concerned about whether it's fun, just whether the rare drops are like other MMOS.

That's the whole problem with most people.
They are completely fine with garbage, because they've never experienced better and can't imagine better.
Then they go around attacking anyone who has seen better.

So, how would I make Ultimate more interesting?
Well, I would try to make it more about beating tough bosses one at a time.
Making the battlefield an untrackable nightmare isn't enjoyable. It is basically like this:
[spoiler-box]http://i60.tinypic.com/28gvw3a.jpg[/spoiler-box]
And this (https://twitter.com/maidoll/status/625408393671348224).

But if it's more about single bosses, then there are the same inherent PSO2 problems:
1. If it doesn't have a billion HP, it will be trivial, and a billion HP makes bosses boring.
2. Everyone just wants the rare drops, so they are going to be playing like shit or rushing like crazy, which makes fights unenjoyable.
3. Boost tickets further make people eager to rush rush rush. They will probably just find a way to spawn the boss they want quickly and farm it with optimal class combo.
4. I'm sure there's more. But hey, at least they won't have to wait for EQs of it to pop.

What to do then? Well, first, it'd be nice if the primary incentive to play Ultimate is because it's fun, not because it gives fat loots.
Gameplay wise? Ultimate needs to be something new and different, I think. I'd need to experiment to figure out what.
As it is now, it's just the regular game with slightly different enemies that fill the screen with crap.

I only played up until the start of Ultimate in PSO1. Solo and offline only.
I just remember tons of Tokkas everywhere with a bazillion HP that hit hard as nuts.
The sad part is I probably prefer that to PSO2's Ultimate.
In my opinion UQs should have been single party quests (designed for 4 players instead of 12), the visual noise doesn't come just from the bosses/enemies shiny effects everywhere, but there being 12 players creates even more visual noise (also 12 players results in everything being mowed down mindlessly).

When UQs were first announced to be a separate type of quest instead of the next difficulty, I hoped they would have been more like TAs darker's den, long-ish challenging single party quests with a beginning and end, quests that can't be rushed to the end, but as soon as they showed them to be 12 player run in circles quests until points are reached, it killed any interest I had in these quests (or even in the game itself, almost everything in the past year has been focused on MPAs).

[TaigaUC]

Oh, one of the things about Ultimate I used to complain about and forgot:

You know what makes enemies fun? Learning their weaknesses and then having them react to weaknesses.
For example, Garongos. You flip 'em, and they're weak underneath.
With Mantises, you wanna stop 'em teleporting. Knock 'em over. Makes certain PAs useful, etc.
It's action and reaction. That kind of stuff is fun, right?

So, what happens when you fight Ultimate enemies? They just ignore everything and keep attacking.
At least, that's how it seems like to me. There's so much crap going on, I can't really tell.
Anyway, I think that's insanely dull.

Like with bursts, it's just "kill spawning enemies for like 20 minutes".
Bursts always literally make me drowsy. I'm not kidding.
I need something that uses my intellect to keep me awake. Not this repetitive mindless spank spank stuff.
The incentives to redo Ultimate over and over for drops makes that even worse.

There is nothing about Ultimate that makes it feel like "being rewarded for completing a difficult challenge".
Nothing at all.

[LonelyGaruga]

So, what happens when you fight Ultimate enemies? They just ignore everything and keep attacking.
At least, that's how it seems like to me. There's so much crap going on, I can't really tell.
Anyway, I think that's insanely dull.

Most people complaining here have no idea what they're talking about anyway. It's cute to see people talk about how much better they can design the game though!

Anyway, Nemesis series is actually slightly weaker than Ares in terms of ATK, and the potential should be fine since there are a good number of areas that are exclusively darkers (TD, DF EQs, City and Ruins AQ). The main concern is the actual % value. If it's only 13% like the regular Negative Hunter potential, then it'll be barely stronger than max PB Ares, and still weaker than Ideal. At least 16% should be fine though.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Most people complaining here have no idea what they're talking about anyway. It's cute to see people talk about how much better they can design the game though!

To be fair;

1: the visual overload is pretty real
2: infection cores are a double edged sword. On one hand, they make it so enemies don't get stunlocked to death. On the other hand, it takes out what little depth there is in dealing with different types of enemies (knockdown immune NA gorongo, stun-immune LI gilnas...)

[Saffran]

>So, what happens when you fight Ultimate enemies? They just ignore everything and keep attacking.

Yeah, because they don't have any choice. Even in Lilipa, where the enemies do exactly the same, we can mow them down as if it were trivial.
If the enemies are to be any challenging at all, what can they do? Right now we have a certain group of people running around with 4000 ATK and another one with 2200. You can't balance things around that.
-Most people run on "every point possible in attack" builds, so you need enemies to have either rockhard defenses or gazillions of HP.
-If they had stun animations or if they flinched, they'd be over without putting up a fight and people would complain that Ult is too easy.
-The only reward you can give to someone who "has it all" is a new toy. And it has to be hard to get, but you have to balance things around the weaker players to keep the player base, which means the stronger player will plow through your content effortlessly, so you need some strong bullshit RNG.

Strictly IMO, the problem lies with the game mechanics.
We shouldn't be able to put the same PA on all slots. What's the point of having different motions in the combo system, for each weapon?
We shouldn't be able to put all 200 mag lvls in one stat.
We shouldn't be able to have attack enhancing abilities on our defensive gear.
Why are the gear requisites so low?
Why don't we have maximum stats?

With a predictable limit to our own abilities, SEGA could start designing enemies and stages that would be challenging for everybody. Have enemies immune to some weapons, or to some attack types. Have one shot attacks that you can only prevent with debant cut or with resistances.

Right now glass canons playing Ult are either:
hitting things first and trashing them and finding it boring or
getting hit first and being trashed around like chewtoys and whining that it's too hard for too little reward.

Hence the dumbing down of Ult quests. Which will only change the nature of the complaints from "OMG too hard too little reward" to "OMG too easy not rewarding".

[LonelyGaruga]

To be fair;

1: the visual overload is pretty real
2: infection cores are a double edged sword. On one hand, they make it so enemies don't get stunlocked to death. On the other hand, it takes out what little depth there is in dealing with different types of enemies (knockdown immune NA gorongo, stun-immune LI gilnas...)

First is a legitimate complaint, but the second one is not. Ultimate cores are very fragile, and it's honestly the MPA's fault if the infected enemy in the spawn group manages to infect the rest of the enemies. Furthermore, exploitation of weaknesses is not really "depth" when it makes the enemy virtually incapable of fighting back, and in a decent MPA these enemies die fast enough that these weaknesses are irrelevant.

[TaigaUC]

Most people complaining here have no idea what they're talking about anyway. It's cute to see people talk about how much better they can design the game though!

That's why I intentionally said that's how it seems to me.
I didn't just say it was outright fact, because I'm not perfect and I may be wrong.
At one point in time, I happened to be the prized pupil of one of the most highly respected game design lecturers at the game dev college I attended.
Alas, I have no confidence. I feel bad about letting him down by sitting around blowing so much of my time on crap like writing on this forum and idling in PSO2.
If I had a completed project to show off, I probably would.
Also, game dev colleges aren't very good, IMHO. They can't keep up with changing tech.
Better to just make something yourself. Get real experience.

I did say I'd have to experiment with possibilities to see what would work well.
That's how good game design works. You prototype ideas and build on them.
I dunno about you, but I can't conjure definite good ideas and be sure that they will work well. They need to be tested, over and over.
They also need to work well in concert with everything else. Shoving random cool popular ideas in tends to end badly, unless you get lucky.
I knew that beforehand, but I've seen tons of people doing that. It's not good.

Even despite my personal shortcomings, I'm certain that I wouldn't have put out Ultimate as it is in its current state.
I don't think many good game designers would.
And seriously, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if I've had more game design experience than whoever's been tasked with handling most of PSO2.
I've also had design discussions with JP players who know PSO and PSO2 inside-out (moreso than myself, or the people here), and *gasp* we tend to end up agreeing.

I've tried Ultimate probably 50+ times since day one, and I've tried soloing Ultimate Naberius a few times. I've never found any of them enjoyable. At all.
I'm also not the only one who doesn't enjoy Ultimate, it happens to be a commonly unpopular thing.
There's a reason why SEGA is trying to get people to go back to Ultimate Naberius.
Ever notice how nobody does Ultimate Quests? That's not my fault.
Do you seriously think people here can't at least come up with something that people would want to actually play for fun?

Whether I'm incorrect about Ultimate enemies lacking action/reaction, there's still the underlying undeniable issue that there's so much crap flying about in Ultimate that most people can barely tell what's going on.

If I'm wrong, then by all means, please correct me.
It's not helpful to only hint at falsehoods, or to mock people.
I think clarification for sake of fact is important.
But usually when I write these replies and ask for clarification, I usually get ignored.
Or if someone does reply, it's probably going to be in a rude, abusive trolling manner.
It's true that many people here just enjoy trolling others, so perhaps pretending to hint at supposed fallacies is another popular in-joke thing? I don't know.


>So, what happens when you fight Ultimate enemies? They just ignore everything and keep attacking.

Yeah, because they don't have any choice. Even in Lilipa, where the enemies do exactly the same, we can mow them down as if it were trivial.
If the enemies are to be any challenging at all, what can they do?


Well, first off, I don't like trash mobs. I think they're a waste of time. I like bosses.
Less but more tough enemies is good.
I've said this before, but Ultimate being more like Dark Souls would be nice.
This may be a surprise to some people, but the challenges of the Souls series are actually pretty popular.

Some random off-my-head suggestions:
Force players to be more strategic and careful. That doesn't work when there's so much crap flying around.
Instead of just plain hitstun, have them react violently when damaged, or change phases or forms significantly.
Random behavior changes aren't action <-> reaction, so it should be in direct reaction to player attacks.

There are already some enemies with unique reactions, such as the Cochronedas swinging wildly when blinded.
That kind of stuff is good. It means you can't just simply swing at them while they're in a negative reactive state.
Anga changes defenses depending on the top damage done. That's pretty interesting too. Make players learn to adapt to changing situations. It's exciting!

If there's one thing I found interesting about Ultimate is how enemies get infected by Anga bits.
But AFAIK they don't really change that much. They should probably have focused more on that.


>So, what happens when you fight Ultimate enemies?
Strictly IMO, the problem lies with the game mechanics.


I agree with this, not so much with your suggestion solutions.
But at least we're trying.

SEGA often obviously does not care much about fixing such issues.
Ultimate has been around for over a year.
People don't enjoy doing it. So how does SEGA get people to play it?
They don't fix the underlying issues. They just try to add more incentive.
People like me and those JP PSO1-2 veterans who (unlike me) know the game inside out, still don't want to play it.
That should be enough proof that it's still not very good game design, regardless of what anyone else says or implies.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Ultimate cores are very fragile, and it's honestly the MPA's fault if the infected enemy in the spawn group manages to infect the rest of the enemies.

Fair enough.


Furthermore, exploitation of weaknesses is not really "depth" when it makes the enemy virtually incapable of fighting back

I'd like to think that any legitimate reason I have to not use my fastest/strongest PA on an enemy til it dies as depth, especially when they sport tons of HP, don't stay still for long, and are otherwise free to do whatever they want, such as NA gorongo, and LI gilnas.


and in a decent MPA these enemies die fast enough that these weaknesses are irrelevant.

And that right there is the core problem that makes alot of content yawn-worthy; 12 player MPA killsquads. I suggested this way back around the time ult nab was fresh, but if it were a single party quest, progression/objective based, with meaningful rewards at all points of the quest, and no tele-pipes, I assure you group setups, and individual player decisions in a fight would actually carry some real weight outside of just needing one person to zondeel, or WB the right spot to mow down the content. They just need to regulate spawn density, and enemy HP on top of it all of course.

You know what content sports most of these qualities, and is fun? TD and CM1. Both of which actually have legitimate reasons to be mult party quests as well.

Implied time constraints such as VR, and limited EQ time, and the risk of 'failure' are the main drives for people to try hard to get better, which is fun for many of us.

[TaigaUC]

Yes. I agree with Maninbluejumpsuit. I think.
Note that I'm still recovering from a bad case of illness, so I'm probably going to say something strange somewhere.

I like that weak points add depth in encouraging people to attack certain points that may or may not be revealed during certain behaviors.
It also results in people using different kinds of attacks and weapons.
I don't like that successfully hitting weak points often results in an enemy going splat immediately.
That's where the problem is.
That, and in PSO2 speed is important because of shit like the boost ticket system and the incentives everyone wants to get ASAP.
Like I've said, if those would just fxxk off, I think the game would be much more enjoyable.

One thing I've always found hilarious is that boost infections are supposed to make an enemy tougher.
But they end up multiplying damage received by a huge amount, and simplify the weak point system, effectively making that enemy super easy to kill quickly.
I guess Ultimate infections are supposed to be SEGA's way of fixing that? Sort of?

Someone is probably going to ask, why do I whine so much about PSO2, why don't I just play something else?
I do enjoy parts of PSO2, but they're never parts SEGA is focusing on.
For example, I like to solo SH Nab2 and Sanctum. I like to solo XH city Ragne.
I like to go nuts with Limit Break and simultaneously flatten multiple bosses with Backhand Smash, without dying.
Admittedly, I'm not great at doing that, though. But trying to do it is fun. Even better when I succeed.

I also like to snipe boss' tiny head weak points from the other side of the map while they're spinning around and shit, for huge damage numbers.
That kind of thing is super satisfying. If I'm lucky, my friends'll be watching my stream at those times, otherwise it's a sad, lonely victory.
I used to be very good at FPS a long time ago. I stopped playing FPS games around 2004.
Part of the reason is because people who play FPSes tend to be huge assholes. Another reason is because FPS tend to lack gameplay depth. I also prefer 3rd person.
That's... kinda off-topic though. But I'll just leave that here because I'm not in my right mind at the moment and maybe someone enjoys reading my crap.

I do enjoy that PSO2 lets people play it like a shooter if they want to. It's a shame there's that 20%? damage penalty for long range.
And that long range is normally invisible because of crap draw distance.
But hey, with Arks Mod Tool, sniping is fun! Just wish there were more situations for it without intentionally running a far distance away.
Right now, there's pretty much just TD. Which of course, is an EQ that we have to wait for. And TD3 is almost always when bad EN players are the majority.

One other thing that bugs me about PSO2 is that you can't tell how much people are really contributing.
When I make an amazing sniping shot, I would like people to know I did that. When I save the multi, it'd be nice if people knew.
When there's some piece of shit doing absolutely nothing, I want everybody to know who that is.
It would also help shitty or weak players realize that, you know, maybe doing stuff like spamming Elder Rebellion from miles away with a shit weapon doesn't do much damage.

[Xaelouse]

For Ult Nab, while they're doing some good for it, the damage has already been done. These new changes should had been implemented almost a year ago to immediately address the Anga problem, which killed the game for several people at that point. Ult wouldn't be fun even with these changes, anyway.
This 10 year plan of theirs isn't looking so hot.

[TaigaUC]

I guess, to some extent, what I'd like to know is, why Ult Nab and not Ult Amd?
Kinda reeks of more dripfeeding intent. One of the things I hated about PSO2 when it first came out was everything looped back to the same very few things.
PSO2's "current content" as it is now is kinda like that.

I wonder if we'll see Ult Lilipa redone before Ult Amd.

[Achelousaurus]

;3291274']The thing is Sega will never learn and none of this will ever happen.

Sega is definitely learning.
People complained cause ult Nab only had Anga 13*. Ult Lilipa got stones and 13* from mobs.
Ult Naberius was a total clusterfuck, ult Lilipa is a very manageable clusterfuck not far removed from XH.
I am pretty sure ult Naberius is gonna be a little easier than Lilipa even because forest comes before mines.


S
Making the battlefield an untrackable nightmare isn't enjoyable. It is basically like this:
[spoiler-box]http://i60.tinypic.com/28gvw3a.jpg[/spoiler-box]
And this (https://twitter.com/maidoll/status/625408393671348224).

But if it's more about single bosses, then there are the same inherent PSO2 problems:
1. If it doesn't have a billion HP, it will be trivial, and a billion HP makes bosses boring.
2. Everyone just wants the rare drops, so they are going to be playing like shit or rushing like crazy, which makes fights unenjoyable.
3. Boost tickets further make people eager to rush rush rush. They will probably just find a way to spawn the boss they want quickly and farm it with optimal class combo.
4. I'm sure there's more. But hey, at least they won't have to wait for EQs of it to pop.
LMAO
And I pretty much agree.


Most people complaining here have no idea what they're talking about anyway. It's cute to see people talk about how much better they can design the game though!

Anyway, Nemesis series is actually slightly weaker than Ares in terms of ATK, and the potential should be fine since there are a good number of areas that are exclusively darkers (TD, DF EQs, City and Ruins AQ). The main concern is the actual % value. If it's only 13% like the regular Negative Hunter potential, then it'll be barely stronger than max PB Ares, and still weaker than Ideal. At least 16% should be fine though.
But tbh, who wants a game like that?
It's a game, to get any motivation to get better you first have to show me it's worth making that effort because it's fun to play. It's tons of fun to play XH.
It's no fun to play Ult Naberius atm.

Sega has incredibly difficulty to find any kind of balance between super easy and way too hard.
And neither is much fun.

In the first place this isn't a game about long battles but about speedkilling. PSO1 was the same, we had quests that were little else than an extended PSE burst that came in waves cause all quests had fixed spawns and the game couldn't handle replacing single enemies with its successor from the next wave.
So Sega struggles to add some kind of strategy while trying to keep this as Sonic: The MMORPG.
Might as well rename it to Gotta Go Fast (TM)



Strictly IMO, the problem lies with the game mechanics.
Yes, definitely.



We shouldn't be able to put the same PA on all slots. What's the point of having different motions in the combo system, for each weapon?
Wait, WTF? What does this have to do with anything?



We shouldn't be able to have attack enhancing abilities on our defensive gear.
Why are the gear requisites so low?
Why don't we have maximum stats?
I think you are confused.
We don't have max stats cause they are gonna be for lvl 200 or higher. We are lvl 75 which in PSOBB couldn't even enter Ultimate.
That aside, the stats are perfectly fine. The way affixing works is (aside from availability of some affixes).
The problem are the multipliers. In the first place the dmg formula makes them get higher the more you stack and it can easily spiral out of control with skills like WHA 1 and 2. But mainly it's WB and CT.
It's retarded as fuck to have everyone rely on that one skill of that one class in every eq that requires any kind of skill.
And CT multipliers are so ridiculous you can oneshot XH Luther with it as Bellion aptly demonstrated recently.

And the second problem is actually the 12 people mpa system. Not just that the social part goes to hell and a lot of people can never get enough friends / team mates to fill up all slots but Sega cannot balance around 12 people.
They kinda succeeded with challenge mode 1 but that's it.
Not once outside cmode is anything properly balanced



Ultimate cores are very fragile,
No. I need 2 pas to get rid of them.
And with enemies flying, jump and otherwise zipping around at super sonic speed.
Now rinse and repeat for every enemy close enough to be zondeeled all the while I have to run after them and they are a bigass mess with never more than a couple inside the fo's zondeel range.

Sega did very well with XH Kuron. Enemies got big hp pools, but low dmg. Takes the edge of it and doesn't turn it into another clusterfuck where the fastest quickshot wins. That is a pretty retarded concept throught the game Speed is key. Hit fast or the enemies hits you and you have to heal and get slowed down a lot.

...until you get a deathtrain. Which again is only possible cause we have 12man mpas and not 4-6 player only quests.

[LonelyGaruga]

If I'm wrong, then by all means, please correct me.
It's not helpful to only hint at falsehoods, or to mock people.
I think clarification for sake of fact is important.
But usually when I write these replies and ask for clarification, I usually get ignored.
Or if someone does reply, it's probably going to be in a rude, abusive trolling manner.
It's true that many people here just enjoy trolling others, so perhaps pretending to hint at supposed fallacies is another popular in-joke thing? I don't know.

To be honest you write so much that's completely irrelevant to the topic that it's a pain just to read your posts, and that's coming from a guy who, on more than a few occasions, has had people tl;dr posts. So I don't really feel like replying at length.

But to put it shortly, when discussing how to rebalance a game, people need to look at every factor involved. And virtually nobody does. Saffran's post was pretty good and accurately pinpoints issues with player-enemy interaction and effort-reward ratios. And it points out the underlying problem. It's how the game is designed. There are simply far too many variables within even the same class to accurately design a suitable challenge for everyone. Too strong, and the weaker players cannot keep up. Too weak, and it's steamrolled by the stronger players. In order to even begin actually working on real fixes, you have to constrain the game in ways that simply aren't an option.

So really, the only things that can be done that are net gains have nothing to do with adjusting game balance, like reducing visual strain. Things like entertainment and a sense of reward vary from person to person, but the biggest reason anything is being done to Ultimate Naberius is to improve the rewards. People don't run it because there's no reward for doing so when you could run Ultimate Lilipa instead. I also suspect that Ultimate Naberius is being revisited because of story reasons instead, since the next story quest is going to focus on Ultimate Naberius, and with the PD incoming, Nemesis series is basically designed specifically for fighting it. I'm also inclined to believe that Sega is making 13*s easier to acquire to help regulate the variance in strength between players, as well as ensure that they're properly geared for future content.

What I'm not inclined to believe is that symptoms of a problem (Ultimate being "unfun") can be addressed without addressing the actual problem, which is what most suggestions on how to fix it amount to.


I'd like to think that any legitimate reason I have to not use my fastest/strongest PA on an enemy til it dies as depth, especially when they sport tons of HP, don't stay still for long, and are otherwise free to do whatever they want, such as NA gorongo, and LI gilnas.

You already have a legitimate reason to use like half of your PAs on any given weapon for mobbing, so I don't see what the problem here is. Only using 1-2 PAs is inefficient play. This is also looking at things at a pretty narrow viewpoint, because you aren't looking at how every class plays. Just how you play your classes.


I suggested this way back around the time ult nab was fresh, but if it were a single party quest, progression/objective based, with meaningful rewards at all points of the quest, and no tele-pipes

In other words, something completely different. This doesn't actually fix anything, it ignores the problems entirely. When content is designed, there are constraints to be worked with. It is unreasonable to suggest removing these constraints because they were obviously intentional and seen as integral to its design from the design standpoint. As such, when considering how to fix the content, it's necessary to work with these constraints, not remove them.


No. I need 2 pas to get rid of them.
And with enemies flying, jump and otherwise zipping around at super sonic speed.
Now rinse and repeat for every enemy close enough to be zondeeled all the while I have to run after them and they are a bigass mess with never more than a couple inside the fo's zondeel range.

Omg 2 PAs that's so much

Like holy hell have you ever been in a good Ultimate MPA? Everything melts like two seconds slower than XH MPAs. The spawn groups that aren't so tightly packed together to be melted so quickly result in you only having to fight like 2-3 mobs at once...not really a big mess at all.

[Achelousaurus]

But, fun may be different for everyone but there are a great number of things people can agree about. The lowest common denominator is big enough to work with it easily.
Hell, it's an action online rpg. That by itself is already niche as fuck.

And as for difference between performing poorly and well or even averagely and well., that is actually fine.
You should need some skill to get stuff done. You should be able to get better rewards and results for being better.
But the gap is far too big. And that is why we rarely ever get the middle ground sweet spot between fun, challenge and reward.

And 2 pas just to get an enemy ready for zondeel is truly absurd. It can take me 10 seconds or more to even get in range both times, considering I have to deal with so many other enemies as well. We are talking about a strategy to kill enemies fast. If I have to take a good while to prepare that, what is the point?
I'm not gonna kill enemies like this and I cannot stun them so I still have to rely on their ai to get them close enough to the force to get zondeeled. Why not just run up and kill them straight away? Has anyone made a real test to check if Zondeel is even worth it?

I'm obviously biased towards melee but considering how many people play that (apparently more than other class groups) it's quite a valid point.

Speaking of it, zondeel is actually as broken as WB. Zondeel, use your strongest attack, everything dies at once. That's just ridiculous. Sega implemented a fuckton of broken mechanics that have no counterbalance. We need some kind of diminishing returns. Like in fighting games, the longer your combo the lower your dmg. A move can do 100 damage normally but use it as 3rd hit and it's 80%. Use it as 6th hit and now it's 45% dmg. You can still stack epic damage with epic combos but you can't just get epic dmg without trying.

One thing that could instantly make everything a lot better is player scaling. Change stats according to the amount of people in the mpa. Like a fuckton of other morpgs do.

[LonelyGaruga]

Not really getting what you're saying. There's only one infected enemy per spawn group, so Zondeel is barely mitigated, and you aren't the only one hitting the infection core anyway. The Zondeel user themselves can destroy the infection cores with Gibarta/Gifoie. Not to mention that Chaos Riser, Moment Gale, and Gravity Bomb (among other things) should be used as well.

Infection cores honestly barely affect suction effects unless Anga Fundarge spawns, or the MPA is too weak to kill anything in a timely fashion (think the time limit before an infection spreads is like 10s).

[Bellion]

Here's the thing about infections in Ultimate:
Every spawn starts out with only 1 enemy infected, and they have a white core. Any enemies that hang around a white core infected will eventually develop a black core infection. Break the white core and you won't have to worry about any infections from that spawn unless things re-spawn. It takes like 10 seconds for a black core to develop from a nearby white core.

Black core infections cannot spread to others. Breaking a black core will allow the white cores to re-infect though, so priority should be given to wiping out whites.

For Te/x wand players, it is a good idea to zondeel onto that white core infected enemy and bash out everything. The white core should be taken care of by multiple explosions and AoE attacks from everyone else.

Now, when Anga spawns every enemy not already infected gets a white core infection so you should just use AoE attacks. Anga re-infects everything with the 2nd phase too.

[Achelousaurus]

Oh.
Yeah.
I assumed every enemy's infection core had to be removed before they can be zondeeled, I didn't know it's enough to get rid of that one white one.
The clusterfuck prevents me from knowing wtf is happening most of the time, those Madoll screenshot Taiga linked? That's ult Naberius for me usually.

It's why I stay clear of ult Naberius.
But I do ult Lilipa sometimes, it's actually fine. And considering how enemies have various amounts of resistance to zondeel, there is no reason why in general it can't be simply half effective on enemies. Which means you cannot easily kill everything but it's still a good choice.

[TaigaUC]

@LonelyGaruga
Thanks for the reply. I wish I could write more efficiently. Sorry about that.
I'm about to get some rest, so maybe this reply is going to be incoherent or strange.
Lazy to insert the quotes for easier reading. Sorry.

Of course I'm aware that factors are intertwined and affect each other.
When I complain about PSO2 stuff here, I guess I assume to some extent that people know I've already complained about other relevant factors here and there.
It gets old having to repeat the same stuff over, and over, and over.
I was also complaining about Ultimate being not fun, I wasn't thinking about the difficulty, so sorry if I was too off-topic in that regard.
I don't find Ultimate fun regardless of whether it's difficult or not.

I think progression systems are often there to allow bad players to keep up with good players, as long as they invest enough time or money.
And of course, this works well with F2P income systems.
But when good players can obtain the same stuff, often in a much more efficient fashion, the difficulty variance range just gets larger.
I keep saying, I wish these games would just take out all the progression crap.
PSO2 would stand decently on its own as an action game, I think.
I know that a lot of people enjoy progression and RPG elements, though.

The story revisiting thing is a good point. I never thought of that.
Making 13 stars close the gap of variance is good, but at the same time it again just feels like another balance fix that we have to earn.
I wish they would retroactively change the default grind values for all weapons.

I haven't seen people running Ultimate Lilipa for a while.
At least, when I tried to do it for the BartaGrants or whatever it's called (I forgot), almost nobody was doing it. So I thought Ultimate in general was dead.
I used to do organized Ultimate runs. Stuff died so quickly, it was less of a pain, but it was still not fun to me.
When I started organizing my own Magatsu runs, I told people we'd do Ultimate Lilipa after. Most people weren't interested.
So we just don't do it anymore.

I know that fun is subjective, so it's a difficult thing to address and "fix".
But at the same time, I think PSO2 leaves a lot of room to be desired, to the point that it shouldn't be hard to actually make some things a lot more fun with a few simple changes.
Of course, there's no way for me to prove that to you.
I guess I just don't see much point for Ultimate being its own separate quest mode. They could have called it Extra Hard and nobody would bat an eyelid.
Maybe what I'm trying to say is, the lure of Ultimate should probably be more about enemy behavior than just enemy durability, strength and population density.
Make it more about the player and not about what gear they're using or what they could gain from it.

What are these "constraints" that Ultimate needs to work with?
There're more unique gameplay modes like Extreme Quest, and Challenge Quest, and Time Attack.
Why is Ultimate basically the points EQ with a teleport and some new enemy variations?
I don't really understand defending such "constraints" as intentional design.
I've been told multiple times that previous PSO and PSU games had more modes. Surely PSO2 is capable of this.

One more thing... the "incentives" to revive Ultimate Naberius is just the same thing SEGA always does.
To me, it's always felt like they are more concerned about giving people incentive to do something, than trying to make that something fun to experience.
For comparison, Nintendo used to be more about the opposite. Dunno about now, I'm out of the loop.

[Mattykins]

Everything in this game is just so fleeting :c Like, in PSO1, when we finished a run, it was cheers and high-fives all around. Here, it's just like... yeah, you finished a quest, so what? Especially now since the "run around in circles and collect points :D!!!" garbage is bleeding into free fields. >:T

[ArcaneTechs]

I would say just get used to this pattern they're doing for new area's and fields. Every time a new field comes out, it HAS to have a 13* series attached to it with stones you get for every run and hopefully CO's to go along with it. We're pretty much at this point if it's going to want to keep people gauged into it. Brightside is at least Kuron didn't die off in a week like past fields

Still asking for bosses in UQ to drop at least one stone, one stone per run is kinda annoying to deal with and still assuming we're getting title rewards for this field that give out stones but too hopeful about that. Either way we'll see just how bad of a grind this can be

[Achelousaurus]

Yeah. One thing that kept me playing PSOBB for ridiculous amounts of time was that the basics were fun.
4 player parties were fun.
Grab a bunch if buddies and just do an area run. Same thing as always but because the core gameplay was good enough it was still fun, like Arcade games that are often just the same thing over and over again with a little bit of variation.

Now PSO2 is so very focused on rewards that this just gets boring. The game conditioned us to a carrot on a stick and without that have no motivation.
Maybe it's also cause in PSOBB a number of section IDs could find very good stuff even in Forest or Caves. Maybe it's because quests took longer and maps were bigger, so you didn't finish after 10-15 minutes and had no clue what to do because everything else is gonna be just as short and just as pointless.

And maybe it's because we are lacking really good quests that aren't EQs. Sure we got ult for some kind of challenge but it's too different.
We need quests like War of Attrition, Phantasmal World, Endless Nightmare, Retrieve X weapon from Y boss for that little retard Hopkins.
Not to mention Max Attack. I was so disappointed when that was some event BS and not a quest.

One thing that is fun about PSO2 cmode and tacos is that you change areas. Not only forest or only facility. Desert and then Tunnels. Forest and then Tundra, etc.

The game is all about speedkilling masses of enemies but the only time we can actually do that is during Eqs and we got so many by now we are bored by something we are made to get hyped about cause it doesn't happen often but on the other hand is already well known and the same as always.
And we get 30 minutes to squeeze in as many runs as possible so we get all pissy when there's a leecher or an idiot ra that masses up WB.

Not to mention EQs in the first place are incredibly inconvenient and you can't un them when you want to or when your friends are online, but at Seag's schedule and the server's RNG.

PSO2 took the whole meta/social aspect that made PSOBB so fun and just did away with it, replacing it with BS.

[Shinamori]

I prefer PSO2, mostly for the combat. And the client side drops. :V

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

In other words, something completely different. This doesn't actually fix anything, it ignores the problems entirely.

I don't see how what I suggested ignores the problem when by its very nature it directly addresses the reasons why ult nab is a tedious, unrewarding eyesore of an experience that people generally don't do.

I talked about making it more rewarding, I talked about cutting down on the visual clusterfuck, and I talked about the possibility of adding 'failure'/time constraints, as well as making it a single party quest so players could feel engaged/like what they do matters more, rather than feel redundant in many 12/12 MPAs. I don't see how I ignored the problems.

[LonelyGaruga]

It honestly doesn't make any sense to do those things in the first place.


I suggested this way back around the time ult nab was fresh, but if it were a single party quest, progression/objective based, with meaningful rewards at all points of the quest, and no tele-pipes

-Single party quest: Already have TAs, AQs, and XQs as single player content. The decision to make the content a 12 player MPA was a very deliberate choice and was seen as something the developers wanted to do with Ultimate quests. Changing it to a single party quest would be contrary to the intent behind it. This is a necessary constraint.
-Progression/objective based: Also a deliberate design choice not to be like this. The story concept of Ultimate quests is pretty clear that ARKS is just carrying out missions to wipe out as many Ultimate enemies as possible to contain them, like the rest of the generic point based objectives. It is boring, but this is the best way to carry the concept out. Instead of altering the objective, the goal should be to make this objective fun.
-meaningful rewards throughout: No quest does this in the first place.
-no telepipes: This honestly doesn't matter. Most objective based quests don't disable telepipes in the first place. Think it's just boss EQs (and by extension boss rooms in general), TAs, and XQs. Maybe TD too, dunno.

What I'm getting at is that other things should be done to address the problems that exist, because the solutions offered aren't really options.

I should probably mention, I'm not making any suggestions because I'm actually fine with Ultimate. Main complaints I have are for better class balance (especially for 1-on-1) and better rewards, which aren't too big of a deal and things that naturally happen as time goes on anyway. I could write at length about class balance but it boils down to wanting it to be reasonably solo friendly when Sega deliberately doesn't want it to be solo friendly. I think that's dumb, but it's their choice.

But I guess that's how most complaints about what Sega does go.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

-Single party quest: Already have TAs, AQs, and XQs as single player content. The decision to make the content a 12 player MPA was a very deliberate choice and was seen as something the developers wanted to do with Ultimate quests. Changing it to a single party quest would be contrary to the intent behind it. This is a necessary constraint.
-Progression/objective based: Also a deliberate design choice not to be like this. The story concept of Ultimate quests is pretty clear that ARKS is just carrying out missions to wipe out as many Ultimate enemies as possible to contain them, like the rest of the generic point based objectives. It is boring, but this is the best way to carry the concept out. Instead of altering the objective, the goal should be to make this objective fun.

Okay I could see the first point causing the second.


-meaningful rewards throughout: No quest does this in the first place.

It could be any type of reward for doing it, like CM's exponential mile gain for distance, stones for finishing it, etc. Ult nab award you with nothing for completing the quest itself.


-no telepipes: This honestly doesn't matter. Most objective based quests don't disable telepipes in the first place. Think it's just boss EQs (and by extension boss rooms in general), TAs, and XQs. Maybe TD too, dunno.

It's to attempt to limit the availability of buying more healing items when things get sour. Healing is already too common place in this game for many. Just a suggestion so people would actually try to play better with more finite healing outside of having a tech-user follow you around.

[Maenara]

Reverser Field would be a lot more useful if 99% of quests didn't have infinite moons.

[LonelyGaruga]

Well if it could be any reward then I'd suggest making the Nemesis and Slave stones drop from rare E-trials, but since Sega doesn't do that it seems to be a deliberate choice to keep Ultimate as lacking in rewards. I guess the upcoming COs can qualify, but it's stretching. Ultimate Naberius is going to have the Nemesis stones drop from clearing it (presumably, since Galer stones are equivalent to Yurlungur), at least, even if it's probably only 1.

Reward is difficult to handle because the game designers have to decide how much they want to reward the player for the work they put in. Since they know what future content they're going to implement and we do not, it's impossible to gauge whether they're being fair or not. And since the sense of fairness will vary from person to person, it'll still be problematic to some people no matter what. In this regard, I think it's simply best to accept that Sega makes their own decisions on this, and suggestions in the player survey are the only input that we can give on the subject, since this is entirely up to them.

Personally speaking, I think Ultimate Naberius, Ultimate Lilipa, and even Kuronia Exploration were all used to gather information to help determine how much to reward players. Each of them were steadily more rewarding, and the rewards for Ult Nab/Lili are going to be upped by the implementation of Hans' and Franka's COs. I'm under the impression that Sega is simply experimenting with how much it can reward players without consequences (whether to game balance, or making it too easy to acquire the best gear, or other possibilities, I can't say), and is working toward improving rewards to be more in line with what they're comfortable with providing players.

As for healing items, I dunno about that since most players shouldn't be running out of healing items anyway. As it currently stands, running out of healing items isn't a concern in the first place, so disabling telepipes isn't really necessary.


Reverser Field would be a lot more useful if 99% of quests didn't have infinite moons.

I suppose using it once a day is a lot more useful than zero times a day.

[Shinamori]

It might be 2 per clear and maybe 200 stones. People was bitching about 1 stone clear from lilipa and need 250 stones.

[WEED420BLAZEIT]

personally, i prefer dealing with rng rather than collecting magick stones

with rng: "oh shiz, i might got one 13* during this run, who knows? god knows"

with stones: "sigh...xxxx runs left...gotta keep running this shiz...sigh.."

then again, the so-called "area drops" exists.

so it doesn't really matter anymore tbh fam

[LonelyGaruga]

It might be 2 per clear and maybe 200 stones. People was bitching about 1 stone clear from lilipa and need 250 stones.

We know it's 250 because the menu was shown in the trailer. Since Nemesis series is a counterpart to Slave (down to being palette swapped), it's unlikely to be altered by the time it's implemented.

Could be 2 per clear, but doesn't seem likely.

[Rakurai]

The only thing about Ultimate Naberius I think needs a nerf is how ridiculously aggressive and generally anti-melee the two minibosses are.

It's kind of silly how much faster they die with even one FO in the group due to how difficult their weak points are to hit otherwise.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The only thing about Ultimate Naberius I think needs a nerf is how ridiculously aggressive and generally anti-melee the two minibosses are.

I think it's absurd how FO-friendly they are.

Weakpoints you can lock on to that is out of reach to most melee attacks, and weak to ice. Guess what ilbarta is.

[LonelyGaruga]

Just curious. Do you play Force? I notice a lot of the time people that complain about a particular class (such as Ranger) have no experience actually playing the class themselves, and thus no real understanding of how it works.

btw, for melee, Symphonic Drive and DBs + JBs in general are pretty good at the mid-bosses!

[Nitro Vordex]

Surviving in Ult with a FO is a lesson in pain. Gotta know when those dodge frames are working.

[Hysteria1987]

Surviving in Ult with a FO is a lesson in pain. Gotta know when those dodge frames are working.

Lord yes. There's a reason I do ult as my RA now. Still, FO's are real valuable to have in there (albeit not as valuable as they could be with that zondeel immunity going round), so I guess it's a bit of a balance.

:-?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Just curious. Do you play Force? I notice a lot of the time people that complain about a particular class (such as Ranger) have no experience actually playing the class themselves, and thus no real understanding of how it works.

I comment on what I understand. Are you about to tell me ilbarta vs bayari/siorg weak points suddenly isn't far more accessible damage than what most other classes/weapons are capable of against them?


btw, for melee, Symphonic Drive and DBs + JBs in general are pretty good at the mid-bosses!

Why else did you think I used the word 'most'?


out of reach to most melee attacks

I played this game long enough to know that there are exceptions, but not on every class, much less every weapon category.

[TaigaUC]

TAs, AQs and XQs are almost all like 2-3 years old now though.
The last few things they did to AQ were to add more rewards and increase the drop rate. That doesn't make the mode any different for me.
I personally hate AQ. A few days ago, I tried to get a friend to help me farm BHS.
We used to do AQ for disks a long time ago. It was boring then, too.
After a single run, he complained that AQ is the most boring thing ever, and he never wants to do it ever again.
There were a total of three of us. We had a ton of bursts and gained nothing of particular interest. This was during the EXP boost too, but the gain was not good.

I'm sure we're not alone in finding AQ boring. I don't understand how we should be satisfied with this 2-3 year old content that's near identical to the 3+ year old content.
SURELY there are better, newer modes that could be made with little time and effort. The same could be done to make Ultimate different.
2-3 years is ~24-36 months. That's ~730-1095 days. I severely doubt it takes that long to script a simple new quest mode or two.
If there's a reason why it takes them so long, it's because they're probably fine-tuning the rewards (and content pacing) to balance out with their drip-feeding.
Screw the rewards, I don't care about the rewards. I just want to have more fun things to do with my characters.
There are a shitload of things they could do with what's already in the game. Just have different objectives, spawns, etc. It's not hard.

Throw in Capture The Flag vs Goldradas or something. Boss mode. Boss Time Attack. Rapid Code Clear Time Attack mode. Capture Time Attack mode. Etc, etc.
Small party arena TDs, anything. I don't care, as long as it's not the same old shit like "kill enemies for points to clear".
I enjoy Mines BB EQ, Izanai EQ, Sea Lab EQ more than "clear points". We could use more of those kinds of quests.
I don't think it's unreasonable to hope, want or expect these kinds of things. It's probably more unrealistic to expect them to add hand animation.

It looked like they were building on Arks Soccer at least. Why can't we have more stuff like that, without it taking months to years?
Add a sports arena where we can play sports minigames. That can't take months to years, can it?
Add old SEGA games, like Space Harrier and Afterburner. Hell, add Tetris. I would totally play that.

In general, SEGA does not seem to ever want to give players too many things to do at once.
It's like they want to keep everyone focusing on a single thing at a time. The schedule EQ system complements this.
I'm someone who can't stand doing the same shit for long periods. I need variation. And there just isn't enough for me.
Again, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a few new different quest modes that can be done at any time.

Yes, there is another solution to the lack of variation: only play PSO2 occasionally or rarely.
Except, they also encourage players to be around all the time or they'll regrettably miss out on all sorts of goodies.
And I already idle most of the time, anyway.

In regards to Ultimate Nab mini-bosses, when I did Ultimate Nab in the past, I also just used Limit Break + Symphonic Drive to kill them.
Seemed the most effective way to deal damage while not being hit by all the shit flying everywhere.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

And I also just used Limit Break + Symphonic Drive to kill the minibosses in Ultimate.
Seemed the most effective way to deal damage while not being hit by all the shit flying everywhere.

Again, the operative word in my posts is 'most'.

I never once said 'ilbarta is the best attack against ult nab subbosses in the game'.

I did say it's easily accessible high damage against them, and comparatively safe, which is more than what a few weapons, and classes can say for themselves.

[TaigaUC]

I meant as melee. Because someone was saying something about melee not being able to handle the mini-bosses.

Still, I personally don't find those bosses fun to fight, regardless of class or difficulty or equipment.
Knowledgeable JP friend said the same thing. They said the bosses in Ultimate Naberius (and possibly Lilipa, I forget) are the worst-designed by far, with Anga being the sole exception.
They listed a ton of reasons, but I don't remember what they were now. This was a while back, and I was tired.

Edit: Something relevant. I still don't have any trouble surviving as Fire Force in Ultimate Lilipa.
But I recall having some trouble surviving in Ultimate Naberius. That was a long time ago, though.

[Ezodagrom]

TAs, AQs and XQs are almost all like 2-3 years old now though.
The last few things they did to AQ were to add more rewards and increase the drop rate. That doesn't make the mode any different for me.
I personally hate AQ. A few days ago, I tried to get a friend to help me farm BHS.
We used to do AQ for disks a long time ago. It was boring then, too.
After a single run, he complained that AQ is the most boring thing ever, and he never wants to do it ever again.
There were a total of three of us. We had a ton of bursts and gained nothing of particular interest. This was during the EXP boost too, but the gain was not good.

I'm sure we're not alone in finding AQ boring. I don't understand how we should be satisfied with this 2-3 year old content that's near identical to the 3+ year old content.
SURELY there are better, newer modes that could be made with little time and effort. The same could be done to make Ultimate different.
2-3 years is ~24-36 months. That's ~730-1095 days. I severely doubt it takes that long to script a simple new quest mode or two.
If there's a reason why it takes them so long, it's because they're probably fine-tuning the rewards (and content pacing) to balance out with their drip-feeding.
Screw the rewards, I don't care about the rewards. I just want to have more fun things to do with my characters.
There are a shitload of things they could do with what's already in the game. Just have different objectives, spawns, etc. It's not hard.

Throw in Capture The Flag vs Goldradas or something. Boss mode. Boss Time Attack. Rapid Code Clear Time Attack mode. Capture Time Attack mode. Etc, etc.
Small party arena TDs, anything. I don't care, as long as it's not the same old shit like "kill enemies for points to clear".
I enjoy Mines BB EQ, Izanai EQ, Sea Lab EQ more than "clear points". We could use more of those kinds of quests.
I don't think it's unreasonable to hope, want or expect these kinds of things. It's probably more unrealistic to expect them to add hand animation.
TAs, AQs and XQs, they're all too restrictive also, neither of them are pick and play friendly, between the random item requirements to start the run (capsules, passes) and not being able to join mid-run...
I think PSO2 could really use some pick and play friendly single party quests.

AQs wise, I find them boring as well nowadays, mostly due to the almost completely randomized maps layouts and enemy spawns. I think those do more harm than good, though a single set map with set spawns would get dull/repetitive fast as well...
I feel that the way PSO1 and PSU handled randomization for quests was much nicer than what we have on PSO2, each quest having a few different layouts and varying between those.

Different quest modes, PSO1 and even PSU managed to do more with less.

PSO1 quests, there was the free roam quests, which were just the standard reach the end boss quest, though some of these were long enough to last over a hour, a quest type that was similar to free roam, but with bigger spawns, a quest type that instead of ending in the boss, the goal was to defeat a horde of enemies in the last room, a quest that was a bit like a boss-attack mode, but had a few rooms before each boss, the tower quests that had enemies that weren't available in any other area, and I'm sure there's more but these are what I can think of atm.

PSU was less varied in the freely available types of quests, there were the regular quests, alot of them and these felt somewhat more varied than PSO2 quests, but due to drip feeding, many of these quests had enemies at a level much lower than the cap at the highest difficulty mode for that quest...And I guess there were TA like quests as well.
PSU had great event quests though, other than the anniversary events, most event quests in PSU felt different, with hidden goals or different objectives...

And now for some pointless wish making (I know posting this here won't make a difference, but meh, whatever, just felt like throwing this here), when it comes to quest modes in PSO2, what I really would want the most is some sort of marathon quests.
A long single party quest that can be joined in progress, it would go through each areas of a planet (including that planet's UQ area), each area would have a few set layouts/spawns which would be chosen at random, each area would end with a warp for a boss (the mid-bosses could be used as spawns in secret rooms), and after the last area boss (which would be the UQ area boss, for example in the Naberius Marathon quest it would be Diabo), if certain conditions are met, I feel that a good ending for a quest like this would be a fight against a Dark Falz, first in its Hunar like form and then it would transform into its large form (of course its HP would have to be set for a single party, though not as low as Elder's HP in XQs, that'd just be way too low).

[LonelyGaruga]

I comment on what I understand. Are you about to tell me ilbarta vs bayari/siorg weak points suddenly isn't far more accessible damage than what most other classes/weapons are capable of against them?

Why else did you think I used the word 'most'?

No, but that's a really shallow way of looking at a class, and it's definitely not true if you have either of those boss' aggro. You're lucky to even have room to JA, never mind get the full chain. Add that infection cores alone take off about half a Force's HP, and that more often than not Force has multiple mobs' aggro at the same time because of its wide AoE, and defensively speaking, Force is one of the most difficult to play classes in Ultimate. Calling it safe compared to things like Symphonic Drive or Gran Wave, which make you virtually untouchable to every single mob and the mid-boss you're attacking, is simply absurd. Anything with a block is inherently safer. Anything with the ability to get out of range of attacks is safer. Melee classes are factually the safest in Ultimate. That's the simple truth.

The melee comment was more referring to Rakurai.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

No,

Okay then.


but that's a really shallow way of looking at a class

That was the only point I was originally putting across regarding Fo vs ult nab subbosses. I'm not here to do a full Fo review.


and it's definitely not true if you have either of those boss' aggro. You're lucky to even have room to JA, never mind get the full chain. Add that infection cores alone take off about half a Force's HP, and that more often than not Force has multiple mobs' aggro at the same time because of its wide AoE, and defensively speaking, Force is one of the most difficult to play classes in Ultimate. Calling it safe compared to things like Symphonic Drive or Gran Wave, which make you virtually untouchable to every single mob and the mid-boss you're attacking, is simply absurd. Anything with a block is inherently safer. Anything with the ability to get out of range of attacks is safer. Melee classes are factually the safest in Ultimate. That's the simple truth.


'Factually' is a stretch when they're built off of putting themselves in prime real-estate to be hit by something in the first place, even when they're not the target of boss aggro.

[Saffran]

I got pretty sick and now I would have tons of stuff to reply to...

Megidolaon>
I take offense to being able to place the same PA in every slot of every weapon because it ties in to something you mentionned: the game allows you (possibly encourages you) to compete against time, so instead of pondering what PA combo you can design to tackle which enemy, you can simply place the same PA on all slots on a weapon, and if you really feel you need another PA you just change weapon - I'm not going to adress the issue of lag and assume you can safely switch midair or midcombo. The game becomes "Gotta Go Fast" like you said, and that brings up the whole "be efficient or gtfo" mentality, and I hate it.
Second point, affixing attack on your defensive gear: again, it's a big nope in terms of game design 101, but if you do it, you should have the odds of survival stacked against you. You can pull it off and still survive? Mad props to you. Most people don't, and they complain, and we get dumbed down difficulties (the Snow Cats...). Which in turns gives even less incentives to get defensive affixes, etc etc.
WB is the root of all evil, so you're not getting any argument from me on this. I feel like CT is limited in its effect though (applies to you and only you, and it's like once per minute at the very best)
"Sega can't balance for 12 except in CM" Yeah. And guess why? Because they decide what abilities we have and what powerlevels we reach.

Now on a more general note, I have never actually found a Naberius MPA so I had to solo it for the various COs and whatnots. Found out the only class combo I can clear it with is Fo/Te or Te/Fo. So I have no idea what you are all going on about. (Limit Break in Ult? Wouldn't any subsequent enemy sneeze kill you?)
I also wish for a more steady reward (getting a stone for clearing, regardless of the rank for instance, but maybe more stones if you defeat a boss or something).

I'm sure I forgot stuff to talk about, sorry. I'm gonna lay low for a while...

[LonelyGaruga]

That was the only point I was originally putting across regarding Fo vs ult nab subbosses. I'm not here to do a full Fo review.

So what you're saying is that it makes sense to judge a class solely on one aspect of its gameplay. Because Ilbarta exists, Force is easy mode against the mid-bosses.

Yeah, I'm done. That's idiotic logic. You have to look at the full picture if you're gonna make comments like these. Otherwise you just make an ass out of yourself.

[Flaoc]

http://www.standardconcessionsupply.com/i/2013%20Images/3_qt_Popcorn_Bowl_1.jpg

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

So what you're saying is that it makes sense to judge a class solely on one aspect of its gameplay. Because Ilbarta exists, Force is easy mode against the mid-bosses.

Yeah, I'm done. That's idiotic logic. You have to look at the full picture if you're gonna make comments like these. Otherwise you just make an ass out of yourself.

First of all, I have yet to say FO is OP in this thread. I have yet to blanket judge FO. All I said is 'FO has a fairly simple time dealing with nab subbosses compared to most other classes/weapons'. That's it. No more, no less. Do not attempt to say I said otherwise.

Second, dude, it's;

Q target.

Ilbarta.

Dodge attacks.

Repeat.

PB, compounds, PP convert, etc is icing on the cake.

Don't make it sound like rocket science, or else you'll make an ass out of yourself. The game is easy in general. Some things are easier for people that have access to weak point heat-seekers like symphonic drive, and doubly so if it's ranged like ilbarta, and even more so when they happen to be weak to the element on top of it all.

Now calm down, and stop posting, unless you have something to add that actually supports 'FO vs ult nab subbosses is harder than what I say it is' aside from more BS credibility attacks, or needing to avoid damage if/when you pull aggro, which everyone has to do if they don't want to eat dirt.

Stop trying to turn the convo into something more than 'FO vs ult nab subbosses'. It's what I chose to talk about. It's what you chose to respond to, yet you keep saying 'bigger picture', when in regards to what we're talking about right now this:



Q target.

Ilbarta.

Dodge attacks.

Repeat.

PB, compounds, PP convert, etc is icing on the cake.


Is pretty much the entire picture, unless you want to somehow refute that with actual points. There is not much more to fighting ult nab subbosses as a FO. There's no need to position, gain high ground, maintain air time, or stay in their face to do anything meaningful to them, unlike many other classes/weapons.



PS: don't tell me about making an ass out of myself mr blanket statement


Melee classes are factually the safest in Ultimate. That's the simple truth.


'Factually' is a stretch when they're built off of putting themselves in prime real-estate to be hit by something in the first place, even when they're not the target of boss aggro.

Try not speaking in absolutes when exceptions exist.
-Whoever has aggro, will be attacked yes.
-If a melee class doesn't have aggro, there's still the risk of being hit by a wide swing when they're trying to put out damage at close range.
-If a FO doesn't have aggro, they don't need to be anywhere near a dangerous attack. They are at a lower (or even non-existant) risk in that situation.

[LunaSolstice]

Freeze=Easy Nab UQ mobs lol

But anyways I actually like the way UQ mobs and bosses are now with their relentless attacks,just makes me want to kill them more lol

[Lumpen Thingy]

Please never change pso-world. I love seeing threads turn into bitching contest.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Please never change pso-world. I love seeing threads turn into bitching contest.

Honestly, it shoulda've been over the moment he answered this question:


Are you about to tell me ilbarta vs bayari/siorg weak points suddenly isn't far more accessible damage than what most other classes/weapons are capable of against them?


with


No

But he kept going for some reason. Dunno why. Maybe ego, or something to prove to someone.

[LonelyGaruga]

Second, dude, it's;

Q target.

Ilbarta.

Dodge attacks.

Repeat.

PB, compounds, PP convert, etc is icing on the cake.

That's nice and all until you realize that the time taken to dodge attacks is often greater than the time it takes for Ilbarta chains to expire, which is the whole problem with getting aggro in the first place. The "dodge attacks" part ends up taking more time than the attacking part. Most classes can attack and defend at the same time, which is something Force can't do, and is a major drawback to their ability to deal with aggro in general. You can talk about how melee needs to get in range of enemies, but when I look at things like Rising Edge > Over End (gets out of attack range AND out-ranges enemies) or Combat Escape (20s of invincibility every 90s and you wanna talk like that's disadvantaged defensively?), I'm not seeing any problems here. Especially since they have the best mobility and defensive options available, which is exactly why I say they're the safest classes. They're the ones most capable at handling aggro.

And of course the issue with Force being at no risk with no aggro is that they are the most likely to draw aggro precisely because they have the easiest time hitting things. Which is honestly such a no brainer I don't see why that needs explaining. Force is specifically designed to be a class that is easy at acquiring aggro and bad at handling it. Mirage Escape is terribly long for a dodge, techs almost universally require dodging to be useful, and the JA animations are slow. Often in Ultimate there is simply nothing that can be done in response to a boss' attack then to go fully on the defensive, while any melee class has the mobility to attack and defend simultaneously.

And that's really what this is about. Offensively, yeah, Force has strong advantages. Defensively, no, it has a horrible time compared to every other class besides Ranger. When you only talk about the offensive advantages Force has over the mid-bosses, then hell yeah you're gonna look biased because you only look at it when it's at its best. This is no different than talking as though Combat Escape was always active, or if Ranger had an infinite supply of WBs.


But he kept going for some reason. Dunno why. Maybe ego, or something to prove to someone.

Oh, I see. Forget it then, you can just go to hell. That was simply uncalled for.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

That's nice and all until you realize that the time taken to dodge attacks is often greater than the time it takes for Ilbarta chains to expire, which is the whole problem with getting aggro in the first place. The "dodge attacks" part ends up taking more time than the attacking part. Most classes can attack and defend at the same time, which is something Force can't do, and is a major drawback to their ability to deal with aggro in general. You can talk about how melee needs to get in range of enemies, but when I look at things like Rising Edge > Over End (gets out of attack range AND out-ranges enemies) or Combat Escape (20s of invincibility every 90s and you wanna talk like that's disadvantaged defensively?), I'm not seeing any problems here. Especially since they have the best mobility and defensive options available, which is exactly why I say they're the safest classes. They're the ones most capable at handling aggro.

And of course the issue with Force being at no risk with no aggro is that they are the most likely to draw aggro precisely because they have the easiest time hitting things. Which is honestly such a no brainer I don't see why that needs explaining. Force is specifically designed to be a class that is easy at acquiring aggro and bad at handling it. Mirage Escape is terribly long for a dodge, techs almost universally require dodging to be useful, and the JA animations are slow. Often in Ultimate there is simply nothing that can be done in response to a boss' attack then to go fully on the defensive, while any melee class has the mobility to attack and defend simultaneously.

... Does charge escape and rod keep suddenly not work? Couldn't help but notice you failed to mention a pair of 1 SP skills that would solve the ilbarta problem in your example if the possible presence of more than one ice FO hasn't already. By maintaining charge instead of dropping it completely, and having to re-charge from the start you are technically not hurting your output as much for evading without it.

Either way, this whole thing is boiling down to 'But FOs have to dodge'.


Oh, I see. Forget it then, you can just go to hell. That was simply uncalled for.

Don't try to take the moral high ground when you post like this:



Yeah, I'm done. That's idiotic logic. You have to look at the full picture if you're gonna make comments like these. Otherwise you just make an ass out of yourself.

If anything is uncalled for, it's that you hypocrite. You give people reason to think you're on an ego trip.

[Kondibon]

... Does charge escape and rod keep suddenly not work? Couldn't help but notice you failed to mention a pair of 1 SP skills that would solve the ilbarta problem in your example if the possible presence of more than one ice FO hasn't already. By maintaining charge instead of dropping it completely, and having to re-charge from the start you are technically not hurting your output as much for evading without it.Have you ever played FO against aggresive enemies? Because the force dodge is so long that you're not gonna be able to just dodge once and then get off a tech because you'd be dodging immediately after.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Have you ever played FO against aggresive enemies? Because the force dodge is so long that you're not gonna be able to just dodge once and then get off a tech because you'd be dodging immediately after.

There are moments it works in the player's favor. To pretend it never does/omit a something that can alleviate the issue...

[Selphea]

I thought before the 7th you can just do em uncharged anyway, especially after a dodge. On the 7th just uncharged other tech like Shifta or something into Ilbarta. Didn't that one guy who soloed Ult Nab as Lightning/Ice FoFi do that? Much less FoTe. Worst case you could do Wand Lovers or Jet Boots and cast the 7th from a double jump.

[Kondibon]

There are moments it works in the player's favor. To pretend it never does/omit a something that can alleviate the issue...There are moments when just guard works in the players favor too. >_>

[femme fatale]

What shigure means is that any DECENT Force in a DECENT MPA can take over bosses easier with ilbarta on WBd weakspots, other melee weapons fucking suck at hitting (with an exception of Symphonic Drice that can still miss) bayaribbles face, plosiorgles and diabo face, wings etc.

all other classes suffer dodging and healing just as much as technique classes, stop replying with dumb shit like "oh oh no youre wrong, you dont even play fo omgz other class dps the same"

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

There are moments when just guard works in the players favor too. >_>

Yeah...? So... what we're both getting at here is that FOs have a method of attempting to defend themselves, and maintain their damage that garuga conveniently ommitted from his post -for whatever reason- that may or may not be as reliable/effective as JG, but it does in fact exist, and functions?


I thought before the 7th you can just do em uncharged anyway, especially after a dodge. On the 7th just uncharged other tech like Shifta or something into Ilbarta. Didn't that one guy who soloed Ult Nab as Lightning/Ice FoFi do that? Much less FoTe. Worst case you could do Wand Lovers or Jet Boots and cast the 7th from a double jump.

That does bring to mind the boots of seraphy craze as well, due to innocent appearance, and charging from a double jump.

Thanks for bringing that up.

[Kondibon]

Yeah...? So... what we're both getting at here is that FOs have a method of attempting to defend themselves, and maintain their damage that garuga conveniently ommitted from his post -for whatever reason- that may or may not be as reliable/effective as JG, but it does in fact exist, and functions?PRetty sure you just misread his post anyway.
" the time taken to dodge attacks is often greater than the time it takes for Ilbarta chains to expire"

I'm pretty sure he was saying that because you usually have to dodge multiple times in a row your ilbarta ends up expiring. It doesn't matter if you can keep the charge if you never get the chance to build it up. This happens to me all the time. :/

Selphea's comment about people using uncharged ilbarta is a better argument.

EDIT: I guess I should ask. What was your innitial point? Was it that ultimate is Fo centric, that ultimate is anti-melee, was it just that forces have an easier time in ultimate than other classes? I only just got here, so it's my fault for not wanting to slog through back reading all of that.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

EDIT: I guess I should ask. What was your innitial point? Was it that ultimate is Fo centric, that ultimate is anti-melee, was it just that forces have an easier time in ultimate than other classes? I only just got here, so it's my fault for not wanting to slog through back reading all of that.

FOs having an easier time dealing high amounts of damage, with little, to no accessibility problems to weak points vs ult nab minibosses than most other classes/weapons.

Along the course of this, despite agreeing with that statement, garuga turns it into this... situation mostly over the necessity of dodging.


I think it's absurd how FO-friendly they are.

Weakpoints you can lock on to that is out of reach to most melee attacks, and weak to ice. Guess what ilbarta is.

Them effectively being a bullseye for ice FOs apparently lead to this.

[Kondibon]

FOs having an easier time dealing high amounts of damage, with little, to no accessibility problems to weak points vs ult nab minibosses than most other classes/weapons.Force has always had an easy time dealing damage, I don't see what that has to do with ult, and if they aren't getting aggro because of it then that means the others are doing their job well too, or the Fo is super weak.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Force has always had an easy time dealing damage, I don't see what that has to do with ult, and if they aren't getting aggro because of it then that means the others are doing their job well too, or the Fo is super weak.

I know. It's common knowledge. It just managed to turn into some sort of dodge debate, and how unsafe/difficult it is to pump out damage as a FO under attack when everyone has to deal with it to some extent. Some better than others

[Kondibon]

I know. It's common knowledge. It just managed to turn into some sort of dodge debate, and how unsafe/difficult it is to pump out damage as a FO under attack when everyone has to deal with it to some extent. Some better than othersfair enough I guess.

[TaigaUC]

I hope everyone still remembers you can do that tiny jump into a Mirage Escape for a split second of invincibility.

I wish there was some kind of Barrier/Shield Tech though. Just because it'd be extremely cool.
There are a ton of places to use that kind of thing to save bad multis, too.
It guess it should be something like, cheap or free to activate, and then PP drained per hit is relevant to the damage received.

[Maenara]

I hope everyone still remembers you can do that tiny jump into a Mirage Escape for a split second of invincibility.

I wish there was some kind of Barrier/Shield Tech though. Just because it'd be extremely cool.
There are a ton of places to use that kind of thing to save bad multis, too.
It guess it should be something like, cheap or free to activate, and then PP drained per hit is relevant to the damage received.

How about a Talis-only toggle skill, Card Guard, that surrounds yourself with thrown talis in a ring around yourself.

[TaigaUC]

Or stopping a single attack with the Talis itself would be very cool.
Barrier-wise, I guess I was thinking of something similar to the one in Magicka, but for use in very short bursts.
PSO2 is still an attack-focused game, but brief defensive moments like Just Guard make the game more exciting and tend not to interfere too much with DPS.
If the barrier was a long-term thing, I don't think many people would use it because dodging and guarding is faster.

LonelyGaruga just seems a little angrier than usual of late. Maybe it's just me.
I've known some people who had real life problems or got tired of seeing so many stupid people everywhere.
They began assuming everyone makes the same stupid mistakes (eg. being sexist or racist, not looking at other factors, not knowing anything, etc).
And then they can't help expressing stress and frustration in everything they do, or they intentionally pick fights or troll people as a form or catharsis.
I'm sure I'm like that at times, although very rarely, and I try not to direct it towards innocents.
Anyway, if that's the case, it's understandable, I guess.

Again, not trying to fan the flames of hatred... just hoping people calm down a little.

[Selphea]

Sounds like Mag Iron Wall. But JB does have a mini dodge I.e. Shift if you want a more defensive casting weapon.

[Vampy]

I know. It's common knowledge. It just managed to turn into some sort of dodge debate, and how unsafe/difficult it is to pump out damage as a FO under attack when everyone has to deal with it to some extent. Some better than others

You both turned it in to a debate you both had to have the last word and it only spiraled down from there. You both have valid points. There is no point in arguing about the obvious.

As far as I know from my little experience with force it needs far more work put in to it to get that "easy" aggro between leveling skill tree and weapons. On the other hand melee classes and range to some degree need to work far less early on in order to have acceptable damage for EQs and just being overall self sufficient.


I can usually pick up and play fighter, hunter, braver, and gunner and keep up with the rest of the pack without many major issues between decent dps and just being able to move around more in a pack of enemies. While playing force and techer I can hardly keep up in damage unless I keep up with my weapons units and tree and even then if I gather aggro I get swarmed and die in a few seconds simply because the HP isn't that great and if I affix for defense and HP my damage suffers.

Ranger is a bit like force to a lesser extent where you gear and tree can purely dictate how poorly or well you will do or be an asset or detriment to your group but it's far easier to set up I feel by level 45 than force is pre-50s or even later at times.

[TaigaUC]

Anyway, let's all just get along. Fact is, PSO2 has issues, and could be better.
No point arguing.

Save all those complaints for the next survey.
I already wrote in the last one that Ultimate is horribly boring.

[GHNeko]

Both ya'll guys are chumpys

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

1: I didn't come here to attack people.
2: Would you people drop it already?

[GHNeko]

Stop posting about it then.

A back and forth only goes on when you actually respond to the topic in hand lol.

People cant force you into discussion on a forum.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Stop posting about it then.

A back and forth only goes on when you actually respond to the topic in hand lol.

People cant force you into discussion on a forum.

You do realize my last post was over 12 hours ago, which wasnt even to garuga, and garuga's even longer than that, right?

[Evangelion X.XX]

To PSOW Moderator:

Please Close Thread lest more arguments should arise.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

A PSOW Member


P.S.

Manin and LonelyG's discussion had already ended; no need to say more.

[yoshiblue]

I wouldn't belittle myself just became i'm not some household name. Doesn't do good for yourself or the message.

[Evangelion X.XX]

^You're right. I'll fix that. Thanks.

[Flaoc]

wow u bunch of crybabies and softies if u want a thread closed.. this is entertainment

[Maenara]

To PSOW Moderator:

Please Close Thread lest more arguments should arise.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

A PSOW Member


P.S.

Manin and LonelyG's discussion had already ended; no need to say more.

this is MY thread

shrek.jpeg

[TaigaUC]

I was talking to knowledgeable JP friend about Ultimate again earlier.
They said they don't think there is anyone that actually plays Ultimate because they enjoy it.
It's always about the incentives.

[GHNeko]

You do realize my last post was over 12 hours ago, which wasnt even to garuga, and garuga's even longer than that, right?

No I didnt. But It doesnt really matter.

Posting asking people to stop talking about it brings youself back into the discussion since you're involving yourself with the topic again.

So my post still applies to that post regardless.

*shrug*

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

No I didnt. But It doesnt really matter.

Posting asking people to stop talking about it brings youself back into the discussion since you're involving yourself with the topic again.

So my post still applies to that post regardless.

*shrug*

Are you trying to be annoying now by being technical? Just stop it, and talk about something else.


I was talking to knowledgeable JP friend about Ultimate again earlier.
They said they don't think there is anyone that actually plays Ultimate because they enjoy it.
It's always about the incentives.

P'much. I don't see my interest re-sparked as long as SEGA sticks to their pattern of making no 13*s totally outclass each other in a linear fashion, and giving them all niches to excel at.

I have my compound techs...

I still want to have chase arrow 17 (god I hope it rains disks in remade ult nab).

Anga can drop shifta disks when maining BO, no? I still kinda want 17.

[ArcaneTechs]

I was talking to knowledgeable JP friend about Ultimate again earlier.
They said they don't think there is anyone that actually plays Ultimate because they enjoy it.
It's always about the incentives.
Basically, its fun for like tops the first day or two then it becomes a chore when you set your eyes on something you want and your just not getting it for days...or weeks

[Perfect Chaos]

P'much. I don't see my interest re-sparked as long as SEGA sticks to their pattern of making no 13*s totally outclass each other in a linear fashion, and giving them all niches to excel at.Wait...you actually WANT them to release a 13* that completely outclasses other 13* in every way? I actually like how they each excel in one thing (although some things are better than others depending on weapon type, but that can't be avoided).

I still want to have chase arrow 17 (god I hope it rains disks in remade ult nab).

Anga can drop shifta disks when maining BO, no? I still kinda want 17.I didn't play Ultimate Naberius that much, but I still somehow managed to get 1 Chase Arrow lv17 (and two lv16s) so I'm content.

And Shifta was a chore to hunt for lv17. It was the very last tech I was able to get to lv17, but Gal Gryphon finally dropped it during the last LQ. During my hunt for it, almost 10 different lv17 Deband discs dropped for me... WTF...

[EvilMag]

With how 13*s are (Seeing how you have to invest in a lot of meseta and lambda grinders to +40 them) They cannot afford to do the same shit they did 2 years ago. (ie releasing weapon then 6 months later release a better weapon) if Slave outclassed Ares in every shape or way, there would a lot more backlash. Especially when people Anga farmed the week before Ult Lillipa. Having every 13* (not counting Xie) being on par with each other is great idea tbh.

[GHNeko]

Are you trying to be annoying now by being technical? Just stop it, and talk about something else.

No I'm not trying to be annoying or technical or anything.

I'm just straight up being real because my point stands.

[wahahaha]

UQ is by far the most fun content on the game

[GHNeko]

I like Lilipa UQ, but Nab UQ is just silly.

[LunaSolstice]

Nab UQ=Jurassic Park lol

[Perfect Chaos]

Does that make Lillipa UQ = Transformers? LOL

[sparab]

"If you think the something is not challenging enough, just go in with a trash weapon full luckyraise set."

One friend's motto, he quit PSO2 again when magatsu(VH) died before the 1st gate.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

No I'm not trying to be annoying or technical or anything.

I'm just straight up being real because my point stands.

Keep it to yourself. Being honest with you; no one else here cares about your point, and I don't care to talk about it.

At this point, you have a problem, take it to PM, where I'll likely ignore it anyway.


Wait...you actually WANT them to release a 13* that completely outclasses other 13* in every way?

Hell no. I like it this way. Just saying, I feel way less inclined to farm another 13* of the same weapon category.

[FacelessRed]

So apparently a lot of rage is apparently in this thread.

But my 2cents.

Seeing as how I usually end up being the only one who wants to do Nab to break the monotony I go alone, On my force. and I kinda would like it to be less manic so I can actually execute an attack.

[isCasted]

I have fun during UQ. I'm only doing Lillipa for half an hour after big EQs to burn my boosters, though. Pug quality is higher than during regular time, and it doesn't get stale that way. It's just a nice addition to variety of other things to do. Sucks when you farm for hours, though.

I welcome incentive to play Nab UQ again. Even if all the layouts and enemies and stuff are same as before, people got much better gear and learned to dodge ever since it was first introduced, so it won't feel the same. Because of that, however, I think nerfing enemies is pointless. I like that it becomes more solo/party-friendly (even if it's pointless), but full MPAs, IMO, can do just fine with the way Nab UQ is right now.

[Achelousaurus]

I got pretty sick and now I would have tons of stuff to reply to...

Megidolaon>
I take offense to being able to place the same PA in every slot of every weapon because it ties in to something you mentionned: the game allows you (possibly encourages you) to compete against time, so instead of pondering what PA combo you can design to tackle which enemy, you can simply place the same PA on all slots on a weapon, and if you really feel you need another PA you just change weapon - I'm not going to adress the issue of lag and assume you can safely switch midair or midcombo. The game becomes "Gotta Go Fast" like you said, and that brings up the whole "be efficient or gtfo" mentality, and I hate it.
Second point, affixing attack on your defensive gear: again, it's a big nope in terms of game design 101, but if you do it, you should have the odds of survival stacked against you. You can pull it off and still survive? Mad props to you. Most people don't, and they complain, and we get dumbed down difficulties (the Snow Cats...). Which in turns gives even less incentives to get defensive affixes, etc etc.
WB is the root of all evil, so you're not getting any argument from me on this. I feel like CT is limited in its effect though (applies to you and only you, and it's like once per minute at the very best)
"Sega can't balance for 12 except in CM" Yeah. And guess why? Because they decide what abilities we have and what powerlevels we reach.

Now on a more general note, I have never actually found a Naberius MPA so I had to solo it for the various COs and whatnots. Found out the only class combo I can clear it with is Fo/Te or Te/Fo. So I have no idea what you are all going on about. (Limit Break in Ult? Wouldn't any subsequent enemy sneeze kill you?)
I also wish for a more steady reward (getting a stone for clearing, regardless of the rank for instance, but maybe more stones if you defeat a boss or something).

I'm sure I forgot stuff to talk about, sorry. I'm gonna lay low for a while...
CT is spammy now, even if you miss. 30 second cd and if you actually pull off a good chain it's a good deal less.
And while WB gives every damage, as I said before, CT enables you to oneshot XH final bosses like luther. That is ridiculous.

Also, I really, really don't get the pa part because taking that away would be a freaking travesty. Utterly pointless and only inconveniencing the player for no reason.
That's just your personal playing style but there are a ton of issue breaking the game as whole and creating this whole mess.
You don't understand the meachnics? Cause nothing about your gear or pa setting makes a difference even nearly as big as having WB and not having it, Zondeeling or not, using CT or not.

I'll say it again, Sega needs to remove the huge modifiers that allow killing at breakneck speed like this. Then upgrade the small bonuses like weapon potential to motivate us to actually play.
At the moment we have a treadmill with a carrot on a stick at the end but the treadmill is set to half walking pace and the carrot is rotten.
It's easy, but why the fuck even bother?

[TaigaUC]

I still think my idea would work: allow people to set each palette slot to use either the three slot combo system, or the three slot select-a-PA system, as per personal preference.

[Perfect Chaos]

The reason Melee weapons have the combo palette is because shift already has another action for them, so that can't happen until the action gets mapped to some other button.

[isCasted]

Yeah, but then you have 3 camera control buttons (one would work just fine), and a quick menu which is so not quick so what's the point...

[TaigaUC]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about the shift action thing. Blehhh

[Maenara]

I still think my idea would work: allow people to set each palette slot to use either the three slot combo system, or the three slot select-a-PA system, as per personal preference.
You should be able to manually select between combo-type and select-type palettes per weapon type, and, for combo-type palettes, have any amount of PAs you want. Additionally, add in a secondary PA that you can use in combo palettes instead of the next PA up, similar to how normal attacks already function in them. This would allow utility PAs such as Ignition Parry, Sacrifice Bite, Adapting Spin, Kaiser Rise, Vol Graptor, Hurricane Sender, and Fudou to become much more useful, because you no longer have to sacrifice an entire palette just to be able to use them any time.

[Saffran]

>CT is spammy now, even if you miss. 30 second cd and if you actually pull off a good chain it's a good deal less.

I thought it was 60s at lv10. If it's 30s at lv10, then yeah, it's spammy.

>And while WB gives every damage, as I said before, CT enables you to oneshot XH final bosses like luther. That is ridiculous.
It wouldn't if we had "proper" PA, equip and mag management. To see what it would do if SEGA had done the right thing and told whiners to deal with it, try this:
Keep your weapon.
Switch to defensive gear with 0 atk.
1 weapon per weapon slot. (none of that "same weapon equipped 6 times" crap)
PAs have to be distributed. No same PA on two different slots.
Have a mag with only 100 RATK.
Don't use WB. (WB should basically not work on a weak spot so...)
Can you kill Luther in one CT now? No? Yeah, I'm not surprised.

>Also, I really, really don't get the pa part because taking that away would be a freaking travesty. Utterly pointless and only inconveniencing the player for no reason.

Whatcha talkin about Will?
One weapon in one weapon slot seems logical. 6 times the same weapon in 6 different slots clearly is not. (they could program that for units but not for weapons? What??)
Same remark goes for PA (barring redesigning the PA system altogether). You need to be thinking about how you move, how the weapon moves, what position you are starting in, how open you will be after that move, what move could it flow into, etc.
No Super Armor unless it makes sense. People used to complain about Over End, that PA was fine. You are standing more or less still in the midst of battle against enraged creatures who are here to kill you? You can't complain that they smack you around and prevent you from unleashing your attack, sorry. No really, you'll have to suck on it.

>You don't understand the meachnics? Cause nothing about your gear or pa setting makes a difference even nearly as big as having WB and not having it, Zondeeling or not, using CT or not.

WB should not work the way it does, I've covered that (and I have been covering that) since beta-testing.
Zondeeling would not be an issue if we weren't slaughterhouses to begin with.
CT is a big power burst, but again it's a big issue *because* we already *are* that powerful to begin with. And because it's too readily available, I suppose.

Also, the difference in gear is quite significant. Go tour with 2400Atk then again with 3600Atk, it's really not the same outcome.
Then there's the whole "guren tessa-ing" out of codes, invincibility frames galore, macros, cancels introduced after people complain because they can't learn how to properly use a given PA, one pattern players, bullshit damage reduction or super armor during some moves or during Limit Break as far as I can tell, etc etc...

Maenara:
>This would allow utility PAs such as Ignition Parry, Sacrifice Bite, Adapting Spin, Kaiser Rise, Vol Graptor, Hurricane Sender, and Fudou to become much more useful, because you no longer have to sacrifice an entire palette just to be able to use them any time.

Look at the way PAs are equipped: you're not even remotely supposed to be able to use all of your PAs "any time".
If it were the case (that we should have access to any PA any time) they'd be moves like in fighting games or so. Or we could at least be able to equip them like spells. But they're limited to being equipped on slots on the weapon you currently wield.
That's why you have to think and prepare your weapons and PA slot order before going into battle.

Am I overthinking all that?

[Magicks]

>CT is spammy now, even if you miss. 30 second cd and if you actually pull off a good chain it's a good deal less.

I thought it was 60s at lv10. If it's 30s at lv10, then yeah, it's spammy.
?

No, it's 60s at Lv 10. But CT goes on CD once you click on it, not when you begin the chain. In the time that it takes for your party to get you to 100 chain might take 10s. Then because you're at 100 chain, it's reduced by 33% iirc, so reduced by 20s. Therefore, in an ideal situation, after triggering (heh) a 100 chain, you still have 30s~ before you can load and begin another chain.

[RX-93]

The reason Melee weapons have the combo palette is because shift already has another action for them, so that can't happen until the action gets mapped to some other button.

They could always make it like Nova where stuff like Guard can be mapped to PA slots.

[Maenara]

Maenara:
>This would allow utility PAs such as Ignition Parry, Sacrifice Bite, Adapting Spin, Kaiser Rise, Vol Graptor, Hurricane Sender, and Fudou to become much more useful, because you no longer have to sacrifice an entire palette just to be able to use them any time.

Look at the way PAs are equipped: you're not even remotely supposed to be able to use all of your PAs "any time".
If it were the case (that we should have access to any PA any time) they'd be moves like in fighting games or so. Or we could at least be able to equip them like spells. But they're limited to being equipped on slots on the weapon you currently wield.
That's why you have to think and prepare your weapons and PA slot order before going into battle.

Am I overthinking all that?

Yeah, you are. Take, for example, Sacrifice Bite. You have literally zero reason to use it more than once every 40 seconds, yet, you're expected to donate an entire palette to having it. We only have 6 palettes and some class combos can equip and correctly utilize up to seven different weapon types. Given that information, why the hell are we expected to use two, three, hell, even 6 in the case of wands and dual blades, palettes for a single weapon type?

[isCasted]

One weapon in one weapon slot seems logical. 6 times the same weapon in 6 different slots clearly is not. (they could program that for units but not for weapons? What??)

Alright, here's a way to look at it: weapon pallete is your way to access your weapons and moves, which is essentially the way to control your game. What you are proposing is limiting our ability to control our characters with some weird constraints. Controls define the way players interract with the game. More freedom in controls - better gaming experience. Limitations like "one weapon for one pallete slot" gimp player's abilities in interracting with the game, and for an action game it is a serious downgrade.

This limitation was one of the worst parts about PSU, and I'm glad this bullshit is gone in PSO2. We have weapons, and we have moves - let us use them the way we want.


Look at the way PAs are equipped: you're not even remotely supposed to be able to use all of your PAs "any time".
If it were the case (that we should have access to any PA any time) they'd be moves like in fighting games or so. Or we could at least be able to equip them like spells. But they're limited to being equipped on slots on the weapon you currently wield.
That's why you have to think and prepare your weapons and PA slot order before going into battle.

And that's what people have been asking for. Current system is rather annoying, but it still gives some freedom. What we need is more freedom within limitations that make sense for an action game.

[Kondibon]

An Idea I had was for something I had heard of being done in other games (but haven't seen my self) where you can chose which attacks are in your combo, but only specific attacks can go in specific slots with a choice of 2-3 each. The thing is that would require rebalancing and possibly removing or adding a bunch of PAs so I don't think it's practical at all at this point. :/

[Maenara]

An Idea I had was for something I had heard of being done in other games (but haven't seen my self) where you can chose which attacks are in your combo, but only specific attacks can go in specific slots with a choice of 2-3 each. The thing is that would require rebalancing and possibly removing or adding a bunch of PAs so I don't think it's practical at all at this point. :/

Could work for a new weapon type.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

An Idea I had was for something I had heard of being done in other games (but haven't seen my self) where you can chose which attacks are in your combo, but only specific attacks can go in specific slots with a choice of 2-3 each. The thing is that would require rebalancing and possibly removing or adding a bunch of PAs so I don't think it's practical at all at this point. :/

Having a hard time picturing it, but it kinda brings skyforge to mind.

[Kondibon]

Having a hard time picturing it, but it kinda brings skyforge to mind.The closest example I can think of off that I've actually played is Kingdom Hearts 2. You could equip attacks that you could only activate at certain parts of your combo and they kept the combo going, but but they all couldn't be used at every point. The basic format was Opener-Attack(Plus however many combo plusses you had equipped)-Finisher. But you could get abilities that would change your opener or let you use a different button to perform special attacks mid combo or special finishers. The thing is, a lot of them were also context sensitive. Either way, the thing I had in mind would be too much to ask without completely revamping PSO2's entire combat system. I:

[Maenara]

The closest example I can think of off that I've actually played is Kingdom Hearts 2. You could equip attacks that you could only activate at certain parts of your combo and they kept the combo going, but but they all couldn't be used at every point. The basic format was Opener-Attack(Plus however many combo plusses you had equipped)-Finisher. But you could get abilities that would change your opener or let you use a different button to perform special attacks mid combo or special finishers. The thing is, a lot of them were also context sensitive. Either way, the thing I had in mind would be too much to ask without completely revamping PSO2's entire combat system. I:

There's a relatively easy way to implement it, simply implement PAs which have three completely different functions(Like how Strezwei has two different functions), and which function that gets executed depends on which slot the PA is located in on your palette.

[Kondibon]

There's a relatively easy way to implement it, simply implement PAs which have three completely different functions(Like how Strezwei has two different functions), and which function that gets executed depends on which slot the PA is located in on your palette.Adding new PAs won't fix the old ones though. :P While I do agree with adding new PAs to fill niches the weapon needs and none of the others can, people will still use BHS 3 times in a row or whatever. The thing is quite a few weapons don't do combos very well (or the ones that do, it's not as useful as spamming a single PA all the time).

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is the problem is the combo system itself not, just the PAs.

[Maenara]

Adding new PAs won't fix the old ones though. :P While I do agree with adding new PAs to fill niches the weapon needs and none of the others can, people will still use BHS 3 times in a row or whatever. The thing is quite a few weapons don't do combos very well (or the ones that do, it's not as useful as spamming a single PA all the time).

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is the problem is the combo system itself not, just the PAs.

I was saying the system'd work perfectly fine on a new weapon type(s).

[GoldenFalcon]

Wierd thread for this discussion, but if we're bringing up Nova, I like the idea of having right-click being the weapon action on combo weapons, and having 2 PA's on the shift slots. That way, people can have access to 6 PA's in 3 palette slots instead of 6 palette slots.

But then you have to learn to SRoll with right click.

[Saffran]

>Yeah, you are. Take, for example, Sacrifice Bite. You have literally zero reason to use it more than once every 40 seconds, yet, you're expected to donate an entire palette to having it.

Oh, PLEASE. Do you really think you need Sacrifice Bite on anything other than the first PA slot of your sword slot? If it runs out, in runs out. Use it again on the next spawn. If it's a boss, block an attack, use step attack and JA into it and you're good to go again...

[GoldenFalcon]

you're expected to donate an entire palette to having it.

"expected" by who?

I personally do Bite>Overend>Overend. Works for me

[HeartBreak301]

Rant post incoming.

Not a fan of it becoming easier in any way, I already 4 man it fast enough for fun, a hunter, ranger, force and techer can curbstomp it. And you know what? That's fun because it takes some actual teamwork and you can see it in effect. But I guess that's not all that relevant because it's a 12 man mosh pit.

Nab always felt like a challenge and that was the big appeal to it for me, because everything up until then just melted. You find Plosiorgles and they're going to blow up the MPA, you find Diabo and he's going to blow up the MPA, you find Bayaribbles and he's busy dunking on people. But I think the only reason why they got away with half of that was because we weren't nearly as strong as we are now. Most people were still toting 11*'s, now there's a large amount of 12*'s and 13*'s out there with much better potentials and base stats on top of other things like PA crafting. I know for a fact that if you rolled into there with a 12 man group you'd be killing it just as easily as lilipa. Hell, the only thing in there that will give you any trouble at all would possibly be Diabo because he's the only boss without a huge glaring weak point, and that's a GOOD thing. Right now in lilipa, you find a boss and expose the weak point and weak bullet it. That doesn't feel like a boss, it feels like a speedbump.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned here but I'm having trouble thinking of a game that's so afraid of killing people or wiping a party. I know PSO2 isn't exactly raid tier difficulty but come on, we've been having our hands held. I just wish they'd balance the game around the strongest players so you still have a bit of a fight when you're at your limit and until then you have something to strive for. Instead they're catering to the bad players and boring the shit out of the people who are already geared. You don't like Naberius because it wasn't rewarding? I'll admit that lilipa definitely had more rewards to offer but you can't seriously be happy with this chase the stones gameplay they've been feeding us all episode 3. I know I'm not.

So there's my thoughts on the matter, not sure how many of you share my opinion here but there you go.

[Maenara]

>Yeah, you are. Take, for example, Sacrifice Bite. You have literally zero reason to use it more than once every 40 seconds, yet, you're expected to donate an entire palette to having it.

Oh, PLEASE. Do you really think you need Sacrifice Bite on anything other than the first PA slot of your sword slot? If it runs out, in runs out. Use it again on the next spawn. If it's a boss, block an attack, use step attack and JA into it and you're good to go again...

So you're okay with gimping your palette like that?

[Superia]

So you're okay with gimping your palette like that?

You're already gimping everything about your playstyle by using that weapon. I don't think losing the first slot of a single palette will make you that much worse off.

[D-Inferno]

Rant post incoming.

Not a fan of it becoming easier in any way, I already 4 man it fast enough for fun, a hunter, ranger, force and techer can curbstomp it. And you know what? That's fun because it takes some actual teamwork and you can see it in effect. But I guess that's not all that relevant because it's a 12 man mosh pit.

Nab always felt like a challenge and that was the big appeal to it for me, because everything up until then just melted. You find Plosiorgles and they're going to blow up the MPA, you find Diabo and he's going to blow up the MPA, you find Bayaribbles and he's busy dunking on people. But I think the only reason why they got away with half of that was because we weren't nearly as strong as we are now. Most people were still toting 11*'s, now there's a large amount of 12*'s and 13*'s out there with much better potentials and base stats on top of other things like PA crafting. I know for a fact that if you rolled into there with a 12 man group you'd be killing it just as easily as lilipa. Hell, the only thing in there that will give you any trouble at all would possibly be Diabo because he's the only boss without a huge glaring weak point, and that's a GOOD thing. Right now in lilipa, you find a boss and expose the weak point and weak bullet it. That doesn't feel like a boss, it feels like a speedbump.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned here but I'm having trouble thinking of a game that's so afraid of killing people or wiping a party. I know PSO2 isn't exactly raid tier difficulty but come on, we've been having our hands held. I just wish they'd balance the game around the strongest players so you still have a bit of a fight when you're at your limit and until then you have something to strive for. Instead they're catering to the bad players and boring the shit out of the people who are already geared. You don't like Naberius because it wasn't rewarding? I'll admit that lilipa definitely had more rewards to offer but you can't seriously be happy with this chase the stones gameplay they've been feeding us all episode 3. I know I'm not.

So there's my thoughts on the matter, not sure how many of you share my opinion here but there you go.

Pretty much this is how I feel. Things having actual bulk is nice, which is why I actual enjoy UQ somewhat while hunting Ares weps. Though I really want to see UQ enemies either get more tech resist or certain FO techs get nerfed (Gifoie). The only thing I think that can really use nerfing is Bayari jumping so much that melee can barely attack it unless you use SD/PBF/ect, while FO just camps and spams Ilbarta (maybe it could also use some tech resist in that regard?).

[Maenara]

You're already gimping everything about your playstyle by using that weapon. I don't think losing the first slot of a single palette will make you that much worse off.

That's a pretty poor argument. If Katanas had Sacrifice Bite, you'd probably change your tune.

[KLMS1]

That's a pretty poor argument. If Katanas had Sacrifice Bite, you'd probably change your tune.

I, for one, would welcome it with open arms and probably put it in front of two Sakuras for maximum ease of skippability when not needed. Your point?

[TaigaUC]

Dunno what people are arguing about, but I hate Sacrifice Bite because it takes so damn long to use.
By the time it's done sucking an enemy up, the rest are all dead and everyone's already moved on.
It's like a shitty personal Shifta that requires being close to an enemy and puts you out of action for about six seconds, and I think it doesn't even last as long?
Leaves you wide open too, so it's not good for soloing large packs.

The only really good use I've found for it is to incapacitate annoying enemies like the giant yeti types.

[hoangsea]

i think making UQ maps easier is a very bad idea since PSO2 is too easy to play now
or if SEGA think about vita players are being too hard to play at UQ so they better make it easier at vita blocks and make the drop rate lower or make some "vita only" block

people are too strong now, mobs - boss are just shit, too easy to kill, it make the game is so damn bored
still looking for DF double coming, hope that they will not get defeated in around 5 minutes :-?

[milranduil]

You're already gimping everything about your playstyle by using that weapon. I don't think losing the first slot of a single palette will make you that much worse off.

Wait are you saying sword is bad?

[un1t27]

Wait are you saying sword is bad?

Nah, but what they are trying to say is... DIE.

[GoldenFalcon]

It's like a shitty personal Shifta that requires being close to an enemy and puts you out of action for about six seconds, and I think it doesn't even last as long?
Leaves you wide open too, so it's not good for soloing large packs.

With high gear, the animation is like 2 to 3 times as fast. Plus, you can guard cancel from the first tick and get the buff for 40 seconds (full buff is the same damage bonus, just +10 seconds per tick)

[GHNeko]

from the time you start up the animation to when it hits i think is around 40 frames? from there until when you can guard is like around 20 frames?

iirc you can also step out of it at the same point you can block.

sac bite is pretty good at max gear which is when you should be using it/reupping it.

[milranduil]

@zero gear, sac bite -> step and then ride slasher or normals to build gear to 2-3 then do w/e you please. Sac bite is also good prep after pressing nifta waiting for it to suck all the mobs into a spot then TAJA into OE/nova strike as nifta sucks everything in (mostly useful in large spawn EQ and AQ ofc). There is never a time where you shouldn't be using it in general play either. It's a free 20% damage bonus lasting 40/50/60 seconds depending on how long you let the PA last on a target.

[TaigaUC]

Hmm, okay. Guess I'll try that next time then.

[final_attack]

It's a free 20% damage bonus lasting 40/50/60 seconds depending on how long you let the PA last on a target.

All this time I've been using it ..... I thought it's 20s / 30s / 40s o_O
Thanks for writing that up !! XD

[IceBurner]

So, tried the Ult Nab remix. This is much, much easier now to the point where ... I just didn't feel threatened by anything.

I think the combination of the nasty every-attack-comes-in-threes AI, plus the incredible health reserves, and massive hitstun resistance is what really gave Ult Nab its bite. All of it has been toned down at once, when I think one only of the above had to give to take it down the one peg from "cruel" to "tough".

At least the reward structure should motivate players to do full clears and not endlessly farm Anga, now.

Enemies still do tons of damage if they connect, but their attacks are nowhere near as fierce or frenzied. Most boss attacks actually have pretty good telegraphs now.

[Bellion]

Diabo rarely ever flies now since they reduced HP as well, so the MPA can actually slaughter it quickly.
Enemy speed is significantly slower in any of their movements, their attacks seem slow-mo compared to before.

As for the 12* potentials:
Final Fender - Increased damage when HP is above 60%.
Bear Knuckles - Increased damage for Ducking Blow and Heartless Impact.
Bear Rod - Increased damage and PP recovery when attacking breakable parts.

[TaigaUC]

Are these changes reflected in Challenge Quest too?

[Maenara]

Diabo rarely ever flies now since they reduced HP as well, so the MPA can actually slaughter it quickly.
Enemy speed is significantly slower in any of their movements, their attacks seem slow-mo compared to before.

As for the 12* potentials:
Final Fender - Increased damage when HP is above 60%.
Bear Knuckles - Increased damage for Ducking Blow and Heartless Impact.
Bear Rod - Increased damage and PP recovery when attacking breakable parts.

Knew Sega would take it too far.

[IceBurner]

Ult Nab changes do not apply to Challenge Quests or anything other than UQ.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Knew Sega would take it too far.

Kinda hard to make a sweet spot when weak bullet exists in its current form. It's one extreme, or the other.

[Maenara]

Just tried it for myself.

Ultimate is a fucking joke now.

Got hit a number of times in the single digits across the entire quest, running BO/FI with jet boots - and I wasn't even trying to dodge anything.

I'm not even excited for Ultimate Amduscia anymore. Enemies might look cool and act cool but that'll be all there is to it.

Why the fuck doesn't Sega just cut out the middleman and remove the ability to get KO'd entirely if this is what they're going to do?

[TaigaUC]

Did they nerf Ultimate Lilipa as well, or just Naberius?

[Shinamori]

So, we got the number on the Nemesis weapons? 9%/×/×?

[wefwq]

So, how's the new weapons? are they good and worth out times to pick up? or just there for the sake of more variations, carrot on a stick or just a mere "content"?


Did they nerf Ultimate Lilipa as well, or just Naberius?
They didn't mention anything regarding ultimate lilipa so i think they don't touch it at all for now, mob there are weaker compared to naberius trash mob after all.

[Maenara]

mob there are weaker compared to naberius trash mob after all.

Not anymore.

[Agastya]

Kinda hard to make a sweet spot when weak bullet exists in its current form. It's one extreme, or the other.
No. No it's not.

- Make Diabo's parts be a little easier to break so you can actually full break with pubs without nearly killing it
- Make Diabo spawn less and minibosses spawn more
- Add Fundarge bit code
- Reduce Kaiser Fuego HP down to like 450k or so instead of 580k so they stop overstaying their welcome
- Don't let Grandilgas spawn like 6 at a time and then constantly spawn while you're fighting a boss of all things
- No, seriously, it was mostly just Grandilgas and chainstunning Gruffs but don't dive into a spawn of like six Gruffs and expect nothing will happen to you

There you go. I made Naberius less awful without making it play in slow motion.

[ArcaneTechs]

So one stone per run, no stones from bosses and as far I saw no titles to give stones for killing bosses etc that reward stones. I'm not sure I want to run this so many times given that its 3 stones a day via CO's and one per week from Franka. If I'm missing something please let me know but I'm not sure I want to bother with this grind this time around. Better off just running to get Anga in between runs

[wefwq]

Not anymore.
So, nab are not so ultimate anymore? are they AQ-tier now?

[ArcaneTechs]

Nemesis Latent 9%/11%/13% via swiki

[TaigaUC]

Boredom Latent 999%/9999%/99999% via my pants.

At least now the affixes and disks will drop in price.

[wefwq]

Boredom Latent 999%/9999%/99999% via my pants.

At least now the affixes and disks will drop in price.
Not to mention the damage bonus will only active if you attack DA.

[final_attack]

Not to mention the damage bonus will only active if you attack DA.

Nope. not just DA ....... the usual Darker too.

[Maenara]

Nemesis Latent 9%/11%/13% via swiki

Lol, they couldn't even bother making it stronger than regular Darker racist latent. Sure, it works in ultimate, but so does every non-racist latent.


So, nab are not so ultimate anymore? are they AQ-tier now?

It's probably legitimately soloable now, not that I bothered to try. Bayaribbles died in 15 seconds versus 12p MPA.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's probably legitimately soloable now, not that I bothered to try. Bayaribbles died in 15 seconds versus 12p MPA.

I did in fact see diabo die to WB before he took flight to symbolize his rage mode activating. Twas sad.

[Meteor Weapon]

It's probably legitimately soloable now, not that I bothered to try. Bayaribbles died in 15 seconds versus 12p MPA.

Mob's still mass up, but they don't hit as hard now, still gotta be careful not to get flanked. They still have a shit load of HP to kill one on solo.

[Flaoc]

Mob's still mass up, but they don't hit as hard now, still gotta be careful not to get flanked. They still have a shit load of HP to kill one on solo.

its been possible to solo since day 1 of old ult nab (moreso aimed at mae)

[LunaSolstice]

Just did one run today and the MPA made Nab UQ look like the old KFC LQ lol

[LonelyGaruga]

Nemesis Latent 9%/11%/13% via swiki

It's 13% on regular darkers but 15% on aberrations. Anga Fundarge counts.

Still a major letdown though. It's fine for DBs and wands, since they want rainbows anyway (although DBs lose out on Magatsu), but I don't think it's really worth it for anything else. The % advantage on max PB Ares is minimal.

[Vatallus]

Probably wouldn't spend stones buying these 13*s. Probably just collect 50 or 100 of them and wait to see what the invade and upgraded series are potential wise.

[Rayden]

It's not like you can just simply get an Ares weapon, though. For guaranteed weapons with enough effort, the only choices are Ideal, Slave, and Nemesis. Sadly none of these have particularly reliable potentials. Hopefully Invade will be good.

[isCasted]

So...

I'd rather play Fang Banther EQ. Seriously, it feels like a regular Forest reskin with a few different enemies here and there.

I wanted Plosiorgles to be nerfed, but... Just wow. Some trash mob patterns felt too random, but now they behave exactly like their originals. It's super easy to solo now, but there's no fun from it - you spend twice as much time attacking things and twice as little dodging compared to, say, Kuron. Same thing as regular questing, but much slower.

There's no reason to do this. SEGA's fooling us, it's not Ultimate - it's just 12-man Forest.

[milranduil]

No. No it's not.

- Make Diabo's parts be a little easier to break so you can actually full break with pubs without nearly killing it
- Make Diabo spawn less and minibosses spawn more
- Add Fundarge bit code
- Reduce Kaiser Fuego HP down to like 450k or so instead of 580k so they stop overstaying their welcome
- Don't let Grandilgas spawn like 6 at a time and then constantly spawn while you're fighting a boss of all things
- No, seriously, it was mostly just Grandilgas and chainstunning Gruffs but don't dive into a spawn of like six Gruffs and expect nothing will happen to you

There you go. I made Naberius less awful without making it play in slow motion.

They're hp was 495k before the update, and it's like 450k now so... idk what you're on about. Only infections bumped their HP up to 500k+ hp which is normal for any infected mob.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

It's not like you can just simply get an Ares weapon, though. For guaranteed weapons with enough effort, the only choices are Ideal, Slave, and Nemesis. Sadly none of these have particularly reliable potentials. Hopefully Invade will be good.

I'd rather think of ideal as 'bonus damage when you most need it'.

If nemesis potential does work against anga, it's only... around 1-2% stronger than ideal (less than that if you're a high atk setup like FO, or sword HU due to atk diminishing returns)... unless you're using ideal unit set, in which case ideal weapon + units > nemesis vs darker bosses/anga.

[EvilMag]

Nemesis would be fine if people took TD seriously nowadays.

Thanks Magatsu...

[LunaSolstice]

Seeing the Final Fender potent,why would someone pick this over Blitz Fender which has a stronger potent?

[LonelyGaruga]

If nemesis potential does work against anga, it's only... around 1-2% stronger than ideal (less than that if you're a high atk setup like FO, or sword HU due to atk diminishing returns)... unless you're using ideal unit set, in which case ideal weapon + units > nemesis vs darker bosses/anga.


It's 13% on regular darkers but 15% on aberrations. Anga Fundarge counts.

I ran through damage tests for all the weapon types I use and found that Nemesis is generally 1-2% stronger than Ideal depending on the weapon type, with some doing roughly the same damage. Rods and talis benefit the least (talis was the only weapon I checked that did less damage than Ideal would), while sword was actually one that benefit the most (about 1.8% more damage). This is because, although Force has tremendous base T-ATK, the damage formula techs use functionally have less ATK than striking/shooting formulas because of the lack of bonus ATK from element, which is why sword has the biggest gains out of what I checked (it has the highest ATK difference between Ideal and Nemesis in its category). Diminishing returns don't work that way in this context.

But this stuff's just math trivia, the important thing to take away is that Ideal is functionally better than Nemesis for darker bosses. The damage gain is simply not worth the effort. Might as well save Galeru stones for Austere upgrade.

[ArcaneTechs]

So am I right about the stone output for this? 1 per run, 3 Hans 1 per week Franka? no other output of getting more stones? ( aside multiple characters) I really dont want to run this an average 800-900 times for a max % nemesis weapon and it feels annoying getting no stone titles for past play when Nab UQ was first around

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I ran through damage tests for all the weapon types I use and found that Nemesis is generally 1-2% stronger than Ideal depending on the weapon type, with some doing roughly the same damage. Rods and talis benefit the least (talis was the only weapon I checked that did less damage than Ideal would), while sword was actually one that benefit the most (about 1.8% more damage). This is because, although Force has tremendous base T-ATK, the damage formula techs use functionally have less ATK than striking/shooting formulas because of the lack of bonus ATK from element, which is why sword has the biggest gains out of what I checked (it has the highest ATK difference between Ideal and Nemesis in its category). Diminishing returns don't work that way in this context.

But this stuff's just math trivia, the important thing to take away is that Ideal is functionally better than Nemesis for darker bosses. The damage gain is simply not worth the effort. Might as well save Galeru stones for Austere upgrade.

Truth be told, I just did some real quick napkin math to get that surprisingly accurate estimate.

But yep, I just got the COs done for OCD reasons, and ill stockpile the stones for something that's hopefully worth it later.

[Maenara]

So...

I'd rather play Fang Banther EQ. Seriously, it feels like a regular Forest reskin with a few different enemies here and there.

I wanted Plosiorgles to be nerfed, but... Just wow. Some trash mob patterns felt too random, but now they behave exactly like their originals. It's super easy to solo now, but there's no fun from it - you spend twice as much time attacking things and twice as little dodging compared to, say, Kuron. Same thing as regular questing, but much slower.

There's no reason to do this. SEGA's fooling us, it's not Ultimate - it's just 12-man Forest.

People laughed at me when I took issue with this weeks ago, and look, all the nerf has accomplished is make Naberius Ult even more of a grind, because, guess what? People can legitimately derive fun from a challenge. Wow! What a fucking concept.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

People laughed at me when I took issue with this weeks ago, and look, all the nerf has accomplished is make Naberius Ult even more of a grind, because, guess what? People can legitimately derive fun from a challenge. Wow! What a fucking concept.

I stand by what I said about mob density, and overall visual overload needing to go down in forest's narrow spaces.

I was on the fence about possible HP nerfs.

I didn't ask for AI nerfs, or for diabo to go down so hard under weak bullet to the point where he doesn't even get the chance to strafe the area with fire.

[HeartBreak301]

RIP ultimate Naberius. You used to be a fun, challenging area.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

RIP ultimate Naberius. You used to be a fun, challenging area.

That no one really did, though the stones probably would have been all the encouragement needed to make people want to do it. I say the stones, and not the weapons because they're not worth the effort, but the stones would be used for PD weapons if I've read the moonrunes right.

[Maenara]

Diabo is probably legitimately less of a threat than XH Vol Dragon, now.

[Selphea]

Seeing the Final Fender potent,why would someone pick this over Blitz Fender which has a stronger potent?

Blitz Fender works out to 17.6% on a Gu/Ra iirc. Final Fender is a little behind but doesn't need to be in Zero Range so it's better for Infinite FIre/Elder Rebellion/mispositioned Bullet Squall.

Which isn't saying much really, but there you have it.

[Bellion]

What it ultimately comes down to is Blue > Orange, clearly a fact. /sarcasm
Yeah, it pretty much comes out to 17.6% on the potential alone at zero range with ZRC 5/5. You can also factor in TMG Mastery as well with the critical rate of the Blitz.

[Z-0]

Ultimate Naberius was never hard to begin with.

[Charmeleon]

Blitz seems to be the better choice between the two Fenders despite the latent "not working" at long range. I use it along with a Nox TMG for ER. Nox is super cheap so why not.

[Kondibon]

Ultimate Naberius was never hard to begin with.People are saying it lost the challenge not the difficulty. It was challenging... In the same sort of way navigating a maze becomes more challenging because it's full of bees.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The amount of semantics in this thread is too damn high.

[Kondibon]

The amount of semantics in this thread is too damn high.Semantic or not the things people thought made it hard were just annoyances that the player didn't really have control over or any way to actually outplay.

[Maenara]

Semantic or not the things people thought made it hard were just annoyances that the player didn't really have control over or any way to actually outplay.

The inability to not flinchlock the bosses so that they can do literally nothing wasn't legitimate difficulty?

[Kondibon]

The inability to not flinchlock the bosses so that they can do literally nothing wasn't legitimate difficulty?First of all I'd like to say I feel like that's a separate issue entirely from Ultimate that needs to be resolved with the game as a whole and while it sucks that's happening in it too, I don't see how what you're saying implies the bosses were challenging in the first place.

That said, if the question is simply "it got easier" then yes, yes it did, no one is denying that. The thing is, you were saying it was some of the "only challenging content in the game", when the bosses were more annoying than anything else, and most of that came from the adds anyway. Even if the bosses weren't getting stunlocked they weren't particularly hard, and the only thing making the mobs remotely challenging is those boost cores.

I don't know how to feel about lowering the mob hp though. I feel like a lot of the issues with balancing the game just stem from the fact that the gap between moderate and maximum is WAY too big. I've said it before and I'll say it again, they can't balance for the lowest common denominator because shit like this happens, and they can't balance for the maximum player potential because, not only are you literally doing this stuff to get to that point, it's pretty much rng anyway. The gap needs to be narrowed. Also WB is a blight on the game's balance as it is, but I think we can all agree on that.

TL;DR: Bosses weren't that challenging even when they couldn't be stunlocked, and WB is literally figuratively the devil.

[HeartBreak301]

Too bad weak bullet doesn't just change whatever you pop it on into an actual weak point. +255% damage is absurd.

Also since they seem to have raped the AI, does this mean that ultimate enemies in cmode are now retarded as well?

[Hysteria1987]

13 Bayaribbles across 2 runs! Shame about Diabo though, I liked him when he was fierce. Same about the mob density- one of the problems I have with the open areas is that they throw enemies in very small groups at you, and they just stand there and die. What ult forest needed, imo, was a reduction in mob hp and flashy visual effects, not smaller spawns. It's basically the same as the other areas, now.

I did the runs as my half-assed bouncer- I hadn't even bothered to make a BO subpallette, I left my Techer one on. I didn't really have any issues. We all know Ult nab had issues, but imo they approached the fix in the wrong way for me.

We turned Anga to dust before he'd finished his revive animation too, and I'm *pretty* sure he dropped a non-13* rare weapon.

[LonelyGaruga]

Also since they seem to have raped the AI, does this mean that ultimate enemies in cmode are now retarded as well?

All of the adjustments that were made to Ultimate Naberius exclusively affect Ultimate Naberius. Challenge Mode was untouched.

Which likely means that if any Ultimate Naberius enemies appeared outside of the quest (like how Guranz is appearing in Halloween 4), they would retain their pre-nerf status.

[WEED420BLAZEIT]

R.I.P old ult nab, will be missed

so let's list the nerfs:

1.Disco Bears took a sleeping pill, they went to sleep after every drop kick they pull
2.No more Bleed/Injured status from propeller fall(?)
3.No more triple saults propeller
4.Slight action delay, the bears actually think for a second about how it's gonna rekt you
5.Volcano Malmo also took a sleeping pill, they went to sleep after several parts broken(?)
6.Slower Mobs

i didn't notice any nerf from diabo, but i think it does less fuckyou-spin now

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

i didn't notice any nerf from diabo, but i think it does less fuckyou-spin now

He doesn't make it to scorched earth phase against a decent MPA. Or maybe he just doesn't do it all. Not as relentless. I... don't remember him spitting fire actually. Did he forget how to use flamethrower?

[Maenara]

He doesn't make it to scorched earth phase against a decent MPA. Or maybe he just doesn't do it all. Not as relentless. I... don't remember him spitting fire actually. Did he forget how to use flamethrower?

I've yet to see a single fire pillar from him so far.

[hoangsea]

rip UQ
we lost the last thing that called "little hard"
:-?

[Maenara]

Just faced off against an infected Mutant Vomos Brodothys. Due to server lag, he was actually able to fly upwards, but only after he died.

[Agastya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleO5cy2FPs

can we talk about grandilgas for a second? this is really important.

[Maenara]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleO5cy2FPs

can we talk about grandilgas for a second? this is really important.

Ahahaha.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleO5cy2FPs

can we talk about grandilgas for a second? this is really important.

What about them?

edit: oh lol...

[LonelyGaruga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleO5cy2FPs

can we talk about grandilgas for a second? this is really important.

Wow.

OK, time to petition Sega to revert the changes. When Grandilga are less aggressive than Digg there is a serious problem.

[Squal_FFVIII]

I don't really understand all the whining. I mean, 80% of the pso2 population specially the baka gaijin's still can't complete 4 full magatsu runs and some cant even kill the golden magatsu in time.

Yet people want the game to be harder?

It's like this whole forum is constantly contradicting itself. On one side you have those who come and rant about "bad mpa's" then you have those who rant about the game being too easy. The funny thing is that it's always the same group of people here who complain about both.

[Maenara]

I don't really understand all the whining. I mean, 80% of the pso2 population specially the baka gaijin's still can't complete 4 full magatsu runs and some cant even kill the golden magatsu in time.

Yet people want the game to be harder?

It's like this whole forum is constantly contradicting itself. On one side you have those who come and rant about "bad mpa's" then you have those who rant about the game being too easy. The funny thing is that it's always the same group of people here who complain about both.

I regularly four run XH Magatsu and kill Magatsu Sai every time. When's the last time you played the game?

[Squal_FFVIII]

I'm in B15 now. Waiting for the next magatsu. You must simply be lucky. I tend to always get shitty MPA's.

We'll see how this one goes for me. I tend to have better luck when I join a premade JP PT. Even then we can run into the "no WB MPA" problem.

[ArcaneTechs]

I don't really understand all the whining. I mean, 80% of the pso2 population specially the baka gaijin's still can't complete 4 full magatsu runs and some cant even kill the golden magatsu in time.

Yet people want the game to be harder?

It's like this whole forum is constantly contradicting itself. On one side you have those who come and rant about "bad mpa's" then you have those who rant about the game being too easy. The funny thing is that it's always the same group of people here who complain about both.
problem is i dont remember ppl whining about Nab UQ difficulty, just whining about Anga drops. Sega literally turned this UQ into SH mode basically or a slightly harder version of it.

[WEED420BLAZEIT]

I don't really understand all the whining. I mean, 80% of the pso2 population specially the baka gaijin's still can't complete 4 full magatsu runs and some cant even kill the golden magatsu in time.

Yet people want the game to be harder?

It's like this whole forum is constantly contradicting itself. On one side you have those who come and rant about "bad mpa's" then you have those who rant about the game being too easy. The funny thing is that it's always the same group of people here who complain about both.

uh oh here comes the memegatsu perfect/complete run meme

[Anon_Fire]

I still get knocked around despite the changes made to Ultimate Naberius.

[ArcaneTechs]

I still get knocked around despite the changes made to Ultimate Naberius.
I was expecting to get one shot or 3/4's hp gone on Diabo's spin charge, barely hit a little over 100 dmg.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I was expecting to get one shot or 3/4's hp gone on Diabo's spin charge

Do you not use units? He never did that kind of damage.

[final_attack]

Seems like there's less stun attacks ...... Diabo being not as aggressive as before (still doing that lol-spin-charge quite a lot though (3 times in a row)) ...... Infinite Body Slam's gone .....

Well, I haven't tried playing with my tank char, only main char (Gu) after nerf ...... will see once I had the time to play again. Last time I tried UQ Nab using tank (1 or 2 weeks before nerf), I got stunned like crazy (no evasion, full attack mode) >.<

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Infinite Body Slam

RIP noble jamtasm: unlimited slamworks.

[ArcaneTechs]

Do you not use units? He never did that kind of damage.
FO or FI, LB or PP convert, no Debando. ok one shot not so much but generally its a heavy hitter which became a soft hit now

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

FO or FI, LB or PP convert, no Debando.

Oh, did i miss that?

[LonelyGaruga]

Even with PP Convert Diabo doesn't one-shot a Fo/Te with the spinning move. It only did around 200-300 damage pre-nerf. rip Limit Break users though.

In general, Diabo's melee attacks are weaker than the typical mob's standard attacks. They're even noted on swiki to have modifiers that are less than 1 (which is the norm for attacks).

[TaigaUC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hleO5cy2FPs

can we talk about grandilgas for a second? this is really important.

That looks absolutely terrible and makes me sad.


I don't really understand all the whining. I mean, 80% of the pso2 population specially the baka gaijin's still can't complete 4 full magatsu runs and some cant even kill the golden magatsu in time.

That's because most of the people on this forum are probably the 20% that can complete 4 full Magatsu runs.
That's also why most of the people here complain in frustration at the 80% constantly failing.

Besides, Ultimate isn't a rush rush rush EQ, so it doesn't really matter if people want to enjoy it for its difficulty.
Unless, of course, you're farming for rares and your boost tickets are running out.

If you ever played Ultimate in PSO1, you'd know Ultimate is supposed to be hard, not a pushover. That's the whole point.
Something is wrong if Ultimate is way easier than not Ultimate.
I think it highlights that PSO2's Ultimate is SEGA's way of dripfeeding 13 star farming as content.
As in, it's not there for the challenge. It's there for farming crap. And that's the core problem with most of PSO2's content.

Not entirely relevant, but if you want an example of annoying AI, try PSO2ES's later missions. El Dagans are programmed to be huge assholes.
The one you have targeted (you can't move the camera, only hope that switching targets will pick the one you want) will intentionally move away from the pack.
This will cause you to face away from the others, and only be facing this single enemy.
The others will then circle around you from multiple directions (so you can't AOE them) and attack you in the back with long range DIVE KICKS and projectiles.
They don't do it all at once either, they tend to stunlock you with a string of combination attacks.
As far as I can recall, there's nothing like this in PSO2. Enemies just wander around, or charge at you. They don't attack strategically.
Not that I'd want them to be as annoying as the ones in PSO2ES, but some form of intelligent behavior would be nice.

[LunaSolstice]

Diabo is currently weaker than buffalo wings lol I've seen XH Gal Gryphon one shot MPAs before but thats not possible against Diabo.

The funniest part is the size difference between both of them.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

They don't do it all at once either, they tend to stunlock you with a string of combination attacks.

The sand sharks on the coast did this on VH at the start of EP2 before their AI was nerfed. If one hit you, the rest of the pack will stunlock you to death. Running with FPs was suicide. Fighting org blan with a party was a dumb idea.

That was a justified AI nerf :/

[LonelyGaruga]

Aculpus just tended to attack simultaneously (which makes sense since they generally all spawned at the same time and the player was in range, this wasn't intentional design so much as something that naturally occurred in gameplay), nothing special. Well, that and they had like twice as much HP as they do now. They honestly weren't that bad as long as you kept in mind that they did this, which wasn't really any different from not playing braindead.

Though, at the time, the only mobs that actually required any amount of attention were Predicahda (and Dicahda to a lesser extent) and Aculpus, and Predicahda were uncommon enemies, so it was a step up from what players were used to. But the nerf to their behavior was definitely not warranted. They even still attack at the same time, it's just that they now pause for about two seconds before following through with the attack.

[Squal_FFVIII]

TaigaUC, PSO1 Ultimate was much more fun and interesting than PSO2's ult mode that's for sure, but it wasn't that hard as some people make it out to be.

Sure once you hit lvl 80 and go to ult in pso1 the monsters will own you for free, but once you get to atleast lvl 140 and have some nice armor it's not that hard at all.

My LVL 177 Fonewearl was able to solo the whole thing (Online which is harder than offline). She had top tier equipment (Aura Field, Red Ring, Psychowand, Summit Moon, Magical Piece all lvl 30 techs etc etc). Once you cast lvl 30 Jellen on the mobs they hit like lil girls and with SD on herself she would be able to "tank" so many hits it was retarded.

A full party of 4 players would wreck ultimate mode just steam roll it just like people steam roll quests in pso2.

That said back in the GC pso days everyone was rocking duped top tier rares (lmao) so i'm sure that added to the wrecking =P

I'm pretty sure all of my equips were dupes too XD

Man I miss the GC pso days.

Anyways, with that said I never did cheat myself. My lvl was legit and so was my mag etc etc. But i'm sure all of my equips were dupes from the highest stats.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

They didn't attack at the same time. They attacked in sequence (in such a way that really looked intentionally programmed, including the fact the stagger from getting hit by one alcupus' lunge lasts just long enough for the next alculpus to hit you with a lunge, and the next, and so on), and didn't pause as long as they do now before they attacked, which created the situation where you could be stunlocked to death if any one of the pack hit you.

If you didn't disable them first, you may as well be fighting relentless pre-nerf diabo with the ability to one-shot you or something of that sort; being under constant attack where any one hit could mean eating dirt.

Then again; that was only if a pack of at least 3 aculpus all target you, and you don't stop all of them first/abuse super armor. Otherwise, it's a soft-instakill.

[ArcaneTechs]

Oh, did i miss that?
No I forgot to mention that but now that I remember, I ran LR units for awhile so that was the case for the heavy hitters

Even with PP Convert Diabo doesn't one-shot a Fo/Te with the spinning move. It only did around 200-300 damage pre-nerf. rip Limit Break users though.

In general, Diabo's melee attacks are weaker than the typical mob's standard attacks. They're even noted on swiki to have modifiers that are less than 1 (which is the norm for attacks).
see above reply for my inquiry

[TaigaUC]

I only played PSO1 episode 1 Ultimate offline, and soloing those Tokka enemies took forever.
I don't really remember anything other than they had huge defense and HP.
Once I beat a few, it felt like I already knew how to beat them, after that it was just a matter of whittling away the huge HP. That's not a challenge to me.

The Aculps sharks were initially bullshit because they often spawn in huge groups, and they all dart around you while have a high chance to randomly use the spinning fin attack.
There were always so many of them, that it was easy to get stunlocked from repeated spinning fins.
The spinning fin also comes out immediately. I remember hitting one and hitstunning it, and it spun into me before my attack finished. That is bad balance.
They also had high defense? or HP, so it took forever to kill them, and that meant there'd always be a ton of them still spinning at you all the time.
IIRC, the only way to beat them was to keep dodging (guard didn't work because of many random spins coming from random directions) and getting a hit or two in-between dodges.
Talis Zondeel probably would have worked as well. Maybe Ra Zan after a Zondeel, but I don't remember.

[LonelyGaruga]

They didn't attack at the same time. They attacked in sequence (in such a way that really looked intentionally programmed, including the fact the stagger from getting hit by one alcupus' lunge lasts just long enough for the next alculpus to hit you with a lunge, and the next, and so on), and didn't pause as long as they do now before they attacked, which created the situation where you could be stunlocked to death if any one of the pack hit you.

If you didn't disable them first, you may as well be fighting relentless pre-nerf diabo with the ability to one-shot you or something of that sort; being under constant attack where any one hit could mean eating dirt.

Meh, attacking simultaneously, attacking in almost simultaneous sequence, whichever. It definitely wasn't intentionally programmed because they still do that, and not only do Aculpus do this, lots of enemies do, because they spawned at or roughly the same time and you're in the range of each of them, and the only target with aggro, with only one attack available for them to use (Aculpus literally only have that one attack during the day). For example, Spardan A and Signo Gun. The only reason this doesn't still happen is because of that monumentally large delay that was added to their attack.

Aculpus already had a huge delay in attacking because they always jumped to the side before attacking, which I imagine most players can react to. If Aculpus were reverted to their pre-nerf behavior I have little doubt that there would be minimal complaints. Yes, they were very dangerous because if you got hit, then you were likely to die because of all the other Aculpus, but it wasn't hard to avoid getting hit in the first place if you knew what you were doing. Now, make no mistake, when I say this, I remember very clearly thinking Aculpus were total BS in the beginning, but after noticing they always did that jump, it was a lot easier to deal with.

And to be clear, I'm talking from the perspective of a player that was 2-shot by Aculpus, and I'm still saying they were a fair and legitimately challenging enemy. They most certainly were not comparable to anything in Ultimate, that's for sure.

[Achelousaurus]

The delay most mobs have before deciding they should attack you can be annoying.
I can be impatient and on braver I counter very rarely cause I don't want to wait for enemies to get off their lazy asses.

But I'll take that any day if the alternative is ultimate style clusterfucks in other quests.

Speaking of ult, Naberius is kinda sort ok now.
Not as bad a clusterfuck as before but still not very fun. Ult Lilipa is still a hell lot better and unlike Naberius I do that for fun somtimes.

[Maenara]

The Profound Darkness' ultimate power is giving enemies more HP and sleeping pills. This is now canon. Confirmed.

[LunaSolstice]

I hope the Nemesis series get their own camos eventually because I'd love to use them lol

[Rakurai]

I think they overdid it with how long the midbosses are open after their attacks and breaks.

The rockbears get almost zero time in rage mode, while the mammoths die before they even recover from having their backs broken.

[Maenara]

I made a video, myself.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYtJJ_Wg19Y

Naberius is officially a battle of attrition.

[Hysteria1987]

TaigaUC, PSO1 Ultimate was much more fun and interesting than PSO2's ult mode that's for sure, but it wasn't that hard as some people make it out to be.

Sure once you hit lvl 80 and go to ult in pso1 the monsters will own you for free, but once you get to atleast lvl 140 and have some nice armor it's not that hard at all.

My LVL 177 Fonewearl was able to solo the whole thing (Online which is harder than offline). She had top tier equipment (Aura Field, Red Ring, Psychowand, Summit Moon, Magical Piece all lvl 30 techs etc etc). Once you cast lvl 30 Jellen on the mobs they hit like lil girls and with SD on herself she would be able to "tank" so many hits it was retarded.

A full party of 4 players would wreck ultimate mode just steam roll it just like people steam roll quests in pso2.

That said back in the GC pso days everyone was rocking duped top tier rares (lmao) so i'm sure that added to the wrecking =P

I'm pretty sure all of my equips were dupes too XD

Man I miss the GC pso days.

Anyways, with that said I never did cheat myself. My lvl was legit and so was my mag etc etc. But i'm sure all of my equips were dupes from the highest stats.

If you had a Red Ring on GC then it was hacked for sure! :-P You're right about the levelling though- the closer you got to 200, the easier it was. You went from spending several minutes per room to killing multiple enemies per combo. I'd always thought the original could have used an additional difficulty.

This ult's a bit of a grind unfortunately- I do like the fact that these 'corrupted' enemies can be pretty brutal, and if anything looks like a horrifying mutant that deserves to be feared it's Diabo, but I still think they got the balance wrong between it all. I think we'll find if we can get another, say, 10 levels behind us, it might even be too easy.