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kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:00 AM
The translation team usually tries to find references for names that Sega uses in PSO2 (even though most of the time they're just words that Sega made up because they thought it sounded cool), so why didn't they do that for... *shudder*... Shironia and Kuron? Instead the translators went the lazy route and took the Japanese words for white and black and stuck extra letters on them. If calling them "White Territory" and "Black Territory", and "white people" and "black people" (that's what they're actually called, not joking) would sound "too racist", then why not go the obvious route of calling them Yin (for black) and Yang (for white) clans?

White Territory maps have a spring setting with the sun in the sky, while Black Territory has an autumn feel with the moon in the sky.

Yang represents the sun, and spring/summer
Yin represents the moon, and autumn/winter

White ogres seem to use a fire-like blade wave attack, while Black ogres use ice attacks

Yang represents heat/fire
Yin represents cold/water

The surface of the goddamn planet is a Yin and Yang symbol.

I could've brought this up with the translation team directly, but I didn't feel like looking up their page. If this has been discussed before, I would like a link so I can take a look at the discussion. Otherwise, discuss here, I guess.

EDIT: Thread started off on a bad foot. Proper discussion starts near the end of page 2.

Kril
Nov 4, 2015, 12:14 AM
The Trailers for these area's shown from JP footage had the intro's through story mode text say White Territory and Black Territory, where are you getting that this is the Translations team fault? (I assume your talking about Aida of course)

Why is this thread even a thing though

Meteor Weapon
Nov 4, 2015, 12:15 AM
Because the translation team follow closely what Sega had obviously provided in the game, making up things that is not in the game is not a good idea and would sound terrible in the game's setting unless Sega provided in the game otherwise.

Look at what happened to SEA server localization.

ZerotakerZX
Nov 4, 2015, 12:16 AM
It's fine as it is.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:18 AM
The Trailers for these area's shown from JP footage had the intro's through story mode text say White Territory and Black Territory, where are you getting that this is the Translations team fault? (I assume your talking about Aida of course)

Why is this thread even a thing though

The intro text you speak of is directly from Sega, not implemented through English translation. Everyone calls White Territory and Black Territory Shironia and Kuron, respectively, because that's what the people working on translations called them. Also, I thought AIDA only managed the Tweaker and not any translations.


Because the translation team follow closely what Sega had obviously provided in the game, making up things that's too farfetched is not in the game is not a good idea and would sound terrible in the game's setting unless Sega provided in the game otherwise.

Look at what happened to SEA server localization.

They were called White Territory and Black Territory officially by Sega. Translators changed it to Shironia and Kuron. Sounds pretty farfetched to me already.

PokeminMaster
Nov 4, 2015, 12:21 AM
Aren't Shironia and Kuron specific locations within each territory?

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:24 AM
this has nothing to do with "which name sounds better to your ears"

as you've said, the japanese names are Shironia and Kuron
thats why it shall be translated as Shironia and Kuron

Meteor Weapon
Nov 4, 2015, 12:24 AM
Because that's what they are called in Japanese as well. Shiro no Tani, Kuro no Tani. I dont recall them saying Ying Yang.

Im not even sure what you:re trying to say here, Kuron and Shironia is fine as it is

Kril
Nov 4, 2015, 12:26 AM
They were called White Territory and Black Territory officially by Sega. Translators changed it to Shironia and Kuron. Sounds pretty farfetched to me already.
If your talking about literal translations from Sega than ya, I get that but really, it's basically called Shironia and Kuronia by Sega, I don't think the translation team did this on purpose.

calling it Ying Yang is stupid tho

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:26 AM
Aren't Shironia and Kuron specific locations within each territory?

Nope. The English patch calls it Shironia when it's supposed to be White Territory, and also calls Kuron when it's supposed to be Black Territory. As I mentioned in the OP, it's my assumption that they went with this because calling them "white people" and "black people" would probably cause problems among the English-speaking community. If this isn't the case, I'm curious as to the actual reason.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:30 AM
this has nothing to do with "which name sounds better to your ears"

as you've said, the japanese names are Shironia and Kuron
thats why it shall be translated as Shironia and Kuron


I wonder if anyone who actually knows Japanese will respond in this thread.
The actual Japanese names are Shiro no Ryouiki (lit. White Territory, or Territory of White) and Kuro no Ryouiki (lit. Black Territory, or Territory of Black).

This isn't about "what sounds better to my ears", this is about translations being off.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:30 AM
"too racist".

i'm so fucking done

http://orig10.deviantart.net/3496/f/2015/307/1/b/10984252_566325666843151_6093943593425855378_n_by_ amano_m-d9fgmmp.jpg

Kril
Nov 4, 2015, 12:31 AM
Nope. The English patch calls it Shironia when it's supposed to be White Territory, and also calls Kuron when it's supposed to be Black Territory. As I mentioned in the OP, it's my assumption that they went with this because calling them "white people" and "black people" would probably cause problems among the English-speaking community. If this isn't the case, I'm curious as to the actual reason.
oh jesus, this thread is gonna go somewhere beyond hope after reading this, gl OP, in understand its maintenance right but man, this was too much

I wonder if anyone who actually knows Japanese will respond in this thread.
The actual Japanese names are Shiro no Ryouiki (lit. White Territory, or Territory of White) and Kuro no Ryouiki (lit. Black Territory, or Territory of Black).

This isn't about "what sounds better to my ears", this is about translations being off.
hnng

Sayara please lock thread while you still can, you know where this is going

Meteor Weapon
Nov 4, 2015, 12:32 AM
You're the one proposed calling it Ying Yang(which is stupid and farfetched) and you say translations being off?

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:32 AM
I wonder if anyone who actually knows Japanese will respond in this thread.
The actual Japanese names are Shiro no Ryouiki (lit. White Territory, or Territory of White) and Kuro no Ryouiki (lit. Black Territory, or Territory of Black).

This isn't about "what sounds better to my ears", this is about translations being off.

how off is it compare to Yin and Yang , sir?

Kril
Nov 4, 2015, 12:34 AM
how off is it compare to Yin and Yang , sir?
might as well call it Trapezoids and Octagons

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:36 AM
I'll admit, it was rather premature for me to go with the whole Yin/Yang thing. But my actual point was this: Why were the names not actually translated, but instead turned into Shironia and Kuron? Everyone that has responded so far has said that they're "basically the same thing", but is the reason why the translation team went with that really so simple? That's really all I want to know.

Z-0
Nov 4, 2015, 12:38 AM
I'm not sure what the attacks are for, but the OP is correct in that the names are not "properly translated".

The areas are called 白ノ領域 (Shiro no Ryouiki) and 黒ノ領域 (Kuro no Ryouiki) which translate as White Area and Black Area respectively (Territory also works in this case). 白の民 (Shiro no min) and 黒の民 (Kuro no min) are the names of the two giants too, which translate as White/Black People (or perhaps Citizens).

Shironia and Kuronia are not really their proper names, but I assume they were picked because of how PC the west is when it comes to terms like "white" and "black" when describing people.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:39 AM
I'm not sure what the attacks are for, but the OP is correct in that the names are not "properly translated".

The areas are called 白ノ領域 (Shiro no Ryouiki) and 黒ノ領域 (Kuro no Ryouiki) which translate as White Area and Black Area respectively (Territory also works in this case). 白の民 (Shiro no min) and 黒の民 (Kuro no min) are the names of the two giants too, which translate as White/Black People (or perhaps Citizens).

Shironia and Kuronia are not really their proper names, but I assume they were picked because of how PC the west is when it comes to terms like "white" and "black" when describing people.

And here I thought I'd get nothing but flames in this thread.

Shady3011
Nov 4, 2015, 12:42 AM
I'm not sure what the attacks are for, but the OP is correct in that the names are not "properly translated".

The areas are called 白ノ領域 (Shiro no Ryouiki) and 黒ノ領域 (Kuro no Ryouiki) which translate as White Area and Black Area respectively (Territory also works in this case). 白の民 (Shiro no min) and 黒の民 (Kuro no min) are the names of the two giants too, which translate as White/Black People (or perhaps Citizens).

Shironia and Kuronia are not really their proper names, but I assume they were picked because of how PC the west is when it comes to terms like "white" and "black" when describing people.

To be fair, Japan does live in a bubble when it come to racial issues.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:44 AM
To be fair, Japan does live in a bubble when it come to racial issues.

I think it's more of a culture/language thing than it is isolation. Like how "fuck" isn't nearly as bad a word in Japan as it is in the West.

But in any case, I'm glad that SOMEONE got the point I was trying to make, which still brings me back to the question of whether or not Shironia and Kuron were chosen to avoid the use of "black people" and "white people", or if it was just out of convenience.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:46 AM
I'll admit, it was rather premature for me to go with the whole Yin/Yang thing. But my actual point was this: Why were the names not actually translated, but instead turned into Shironia and Kuron? Everyone that has responded so far has said that they're "basically the same thing", but is the reason why the translation team went with that really so simple? That's really all I want to know.


Basically, the literal translation is indeed White/Shiro territory and Black/Kuro territory
Shironia and Kuron are names that were stylized and simplified from that

If the people are Shironians then the place is Shironia
(let's see, how about German and Germany)
it's like that

If you call yourself proficient in a language then you should not have a problem with stylized names

When I talk with my japanese friends I always refer to those place as simple Kuro and Shiro
they get the idea

Kril
Nov 4, 2015, 12:47 AM
but rascist

Kayarine
Nov 4, 2015, 12:50 AM
I'm trying to dig up stuff on the translators' forums but I could only find a passing comment on Harukotan's translation...

My guess is that "White Territory" and "Black Territory" could be too long a name? Could have issues with text cutting off or something. Same reason 龍祭壇 (ryuu saidan, Dragon Altar) got named Sanctum and 浮上施設 (fujou shisetsu, Floating Facility [......or "Float Plant" according to story mode intro]) got shortened to just Facility.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:52 AM
the basis of this thread is Shironia =/= territory of White

though it comes to my attention that they're the same thing as far as a place name is considered.

there could be "lost in translation" when localizing compare to a word-to-word translation
but this is not one such case
the reason I've already said in previous post

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:52 AM
Basically, the literal translation is indeed White/Shiro territory and Black/Kuro territory
Shironia and Kuron are names that were stylized and simplified from that

If the people are Shironians then the place is Shironia
(let's see, how about German and Germany)
it's like that

If you call yourself proficient in a language then you should not have a problem with stylized names

When I talk with my japanese friends I always refer to those place as simple Kuro and Shiro
they get the idea

They're not exactly "stylized". If I were to compare this to something, it'd probably be something like the word "karaoke". In the past (and even still today), Western people pronounce the word as "care-ee-oh-kee" when it's supposed to be "kah-rah-oh-keh". Everyone knows what they mean when it's said, but people who know the actual word still know that it's being said wrong.


I'm trying to dig up stuff on the translators' forums but I could only find a passing comment on Harukotan's translation...

My guess is that "White Territory" and "Black Territory" could be too long a name? Could have issues with text cutting off or something. Same reason 龍祭壇 (ryuu saidan, Dragon Altar) got named Sanctum and 浮上施設 (fujou shisetsu, Floating Facility [......or "Float Plant" according to story mode intro]) got shortened to just Facility.

I don't think this thread would have had such a sour note if something like this was brought up sooner. It makes quite a bit of sense.

Shady3011
Nov 4, 2015, 12:52 AM
I think it's more of a culture/language thing than it is isolation. Like how "fuck" isn't nearly as bad a word in Japan as it is in the West.

But in any case, I'm glad that SOMEONE got the point I was trying to make.

That's part of it, but the other half really is part of their isolation from the rest of the world. That really isn't the point of this thread, so I'll just say anyone that is interested should look up articles about it online. It is fascinating in the same way people in certain parts of America are still trapped in time.

As for your original point, I believe they did go with those names as to avoid any unfortunate sentences like the description for the racial latent.

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 12:53 AM
White Territory and Black Territory are just shitty names.
Shironia and Kuron are the same shitty names, just in a different language.

But hey, they sound better to a person who doesn't speak that language.

Perfect Chaos
Nov 4, 2015, 12:54 AM
白の民 (Shiro no min) and 黒の民 (Kuro no min)民 is pronounced using the kun-reading "tami" in this case, since it's a standalone word and not part of a multi-kanji compound.

But anyway, yes, the translation is off, and the official English translation is written by SEGA within the game's story quests, itself. The English Patch has made many name changes that I find questionable in the past, such as for PA names (seriously, Last Nemesis sounds just as good as their altered Final Nemesis). But it's not like they'll change it at this point. Even if you can somehow convince them to change it, it would then cause other problems, since a lot of people who don't know what the original names were have already come to refer to those things by what the translation patch named it, thus any change would cause unnecessary confusion for a good group of people.


My guess is that "White Territory" and "Black Territory" could be too long a name? Could have issues with text cutting off or something. Same reason 龍祭壇 (ryuu saidan, Dragon Altar) got named Sanctum and 浮上施設 (fujou shisetsu, Floating Facility [......or "Float Plant" according to story mode intro]) got shortened to just Facility.Probably not the reason, since there are a ton of instances where things get cut off throughout the translation patch. LOL

Kayarine
Nov 4, 2015, 12:55 AM
Actually, is there any reason the patch calls it Kuron instead of Kuronia? It looks inconsistent with Shironia to me.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:55 AM
They're not exactly "stylized". If I were to compare this to something, it'd probably be something like the word "karaoke". In the past (and even still today), Western people pronounce the word as "care-ee-oh-kee" when it's supposed to be "kah-rah-oh-keh". Everyone knows what they mean when it's said, but people who know the actual word still know that it's being said wrong.

that's a case of pronunciation of borrowed word
which has nothing to do with this

Nyansan
Nov 4, 2015, 12:57 AM
Translating literally is kinda bad for context imo as there are some words and/or concepts that exist in Japanese culture that don't carry over particularly well when translated literally. OP's example of Shiro/Kuro is one that sounds perfectly fine in Japanese, but when translated literally would sound somewhat racist. Another example is Tsundere, which is translated in SEA as 'Hot and Cold'. Doesn't carry that much distiction/'kick' as tsundere, right?

In the end, words are just vehicles for the meaning.
If you prefer Shironia/Kuron, fine.
If you prefer White/Black Territory, that's fine too.
If you prefer the original japanese names of 白・黒ノ領域, that's ok aswell.

In the end, they all just mean the same thing. Whatever reason the translator have for naming them that way, as long as it carries the spirit of the meaning it's ok for me.

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 12:58 AM
Actually, is there any reason the patch calls it Kuron instead of Kuronia? It looks inconsistent with Shironia to me.

I asked them directly about that in IRC, but I can't remember their answer.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 12:58 AM
民 is pronounced using the kun-reading "tami" in this case, since it's a standalone word and not part of a multi-kanji compound.

But anyway, yes, the translation is off, and the official English translation is written by SEGA within the game's story quests, itself. The English Patch has made many name changes that I find questionable in the past, such as for PA names (seriously, Last Nemesis sounds just as good as their altered Final Nemesis). But it's not like they'll change it at this point. Even if you can somehow convince them to change it, it would then cause other problems, since a lot of people who don't know what the original names were have already come to refer to those things by what the translation patch named it, thus any change would cause unnecessary confusion for a good group of people.

I'm glad that there are other people that are bothered by those little things as well. I'll concede that changing the translation is never going to happen, but it won't stop bothering me though (especially when I'm forced to hear it from my friends using the English patch).

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 12:59 AM
In the end, words are just vehicles for the meaning.
If you prefer Shironia/Kuron, fine.
If you prefer White/Black Territory, that's fine too.
If you prefer the original japanese names of 白・黒ノ領域, that's ok aswell.

In the end, they all just mean the same thing.

said it better than me

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 01:00 AM
Probably not the reason, since there are a ton of instances where things get cut off throughout the translation patch. LOL

Actually, the exact reason they don't actively translate potential names is because the vast majority of them cannot be correctly rendered in the allotted space.

Shady3011
Nov 4, 2015, 01:02 AM
民 is pronounced using the kun-reading "tami" in this case, since it's a standalone word and not part of a multi-kanji compound.

But anyway, yes, the translation is off, and the official English translation is written by SEGA within the game's story quests, itself. The English Patch has made many name changes that I find questionable in the past, such as for PA names (seriously, Last Nemesis sounds just as good as their altered Final Nemesis). But it's not like they'll change it at this point. Even if you can somehow convince them to change it, it would then cause other problems, since a lot of people who don't know what the original names were have already come to refer to those things by what the translation patch named it, thus any change would cause unnecessary confusion for a good group of people.

Probably not the reason, since there are a ton of instances where things get cut off throughout the translation patch. LOL

Actually, they changed Floating Continent to Skyscape, so there is a precedent for it.

Perfect Chaos
Nov 4, 2015, 01:04 AM
Actually, is there any reason the patch calls it Kuron instead of Kuronia? It looks inconsistent with Shironia to me.They said the reason was that they had already called the "Black People" as "Kuronites" with the introduction to "White Territory", so "Kuron" was a back-formation of "Kuronite".


Actually, they changed Floating Continent to Skyscape, so there is a precedent for it.And that threw me off for a bit. But yeah, it won't cuase problems in the long run once people get used to it, again, but in the short run, it'll cause a lot of debate/complaints/whatnot.

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 01:04 AM
Actually, the exact reason they don't actively translate potential names is because the vast majority of them cannot be correctly rendered in the allotted space.

It's too bad there isn't a way to narrow the font to allow for bigger names. Though even I would agree that certain quest names would be too inconvenient to fully translate. Kinda reminds me of manga/light novels with unnecessarily long names.

Kayarine
Nov 4, 2015, 01:04 AM
Probably not the reason, since there are a ton of instances where things get cut off throughout the translation patch. LOL

I see that kind of thing being reported often, but it's usually in places where it'd be somewhat difficult to spot in the first place, like specific CO text boxes or weapon stat windows.

IIRC the reason they shortened Dragon Altar/Sanctuary to Sanctum really was space limit.

Anduril
Nov 4, 2015, 01:05 AM
I asked them directly about that in IRC, but I can't remember their answer.
QWERTY actaul left his justification for using Kuron on bumped:



For what it’s worth, we’re calling the area “Kuron” in the patch, since we went with “Kuronite” for the race and not “Kuronian”.
The suggestion of calling the area “Kuroatia” was, sadly, rejected.
Source (http://www.bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-trek-within-the-rocky-mountains-of-kuronia/)

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 01:06 AM
Oh yeah, now I remember why they call it Kuron instead of Kuronia.

Shironia - ns -> Shironia
Kuron - ites -> Kuron

That's what they told me, anyways.

Edit: Ninja'd by like 2 seconds ;_;

Perfect Chaos
Nov 4, 2015, 01:09 AM
Actually, the exact reason they don't actively translate potential names is because the vast majority of them cannot be correctly rendered in the allotted space.Maybe they should un-translate some potential's names, then, since a lot of them clip (or come up with a shorter synonym). At least they went and changed Innocent Appearance to Innocent Form a while back. "Form" is a better translation for 形, anyway.

PS: This thread is going way too quick to reply to everything I want to... >_<

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 01:09 AM
QWERTY actaul left his justification for using Kuron on bumped:

For what it’s worth, we’re calling the area “Kuron” in the patch, since we went with “Kuronite” for the race and not “Kuronian”.
The suggestion of calling the area “Kuroatia” was, sadly, rejected.Source (http://www.bumped.org/psublog/pso2-jp-trek-within-the-rocky-mountains-of-kuronia/)

"Kuroatia" actually made me lol just now.


PS: This thread is going way too quick to reply to everything I want to... >_<

I was feeling that earlier near the beginning of the thread, myself.

I'm glad this thread has taken a much lighter turn with an honest-to-goodness discussion.

Perfect Chaos
Nov 4, 2015, 01:13 AM
Edit: Ninja'd by like 2 seconds ;_;More like by 2 minutes...and by 2 people... :p

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 01:13 AM
Before we get our panties in a bunch about the translation team not using Sega's official translation, remember that Sega has named a story chapter 'First Last Best Toys'.

Kayarine
Nov 4, 2015, 01:15 AM
Well, at least the translation is trying to keep it nice for English speakers. If they went with how names are presented in story mode intros, we'd be calling Tundra "Iceberg" and Mining Base "Digging Base" <_>

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 01:15 AM
Before we get our panties in a bunch about the translation team not using Sega's official translation, remember that Sega has named a story chapter 'First Last Best Toys'.

Gotta love that Engrish.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 01:16 AM
just my 2 cents

only call it a "wrong translation" should the meaning (or a majority of the context) be lost
have you ever translated anything from japanese to english and vice versa?

I'm not defending translation as a whole
There has been a "couple" of questionable words among the vast amount of contents that has been translated.

While I myself like to translate things while keeping as much of the original contents as possible, I'm not so skeptical as to demand everything has to be translated word by word.

In fact, the whole ShiroKuro names are rather well-put imo

explained by Maenara on previous post

White People and Shironians are basically the same meaning, same context
The West do like to put things that way
Japan, Japanese
while the Japanese call them self 日本人 (literally Japan People)

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 01:19 AM
Well, at least the translation is trying to keep it nice for English speakers. If they went with how names are presented in story mode intros, we'd be calling Tundra "Iceberg" and Mining Base "Digging Base" <_>

It's been a while since I saw the intro for it, but wasn't Tundra actually listed as Tundra in the intro? I can't remember anymore. The actual Japanese used for the area is 凍土, which translates as Frozen Land.

And Mining Base is actually just that. The full name of the quest (minus the subtitle for each of the different quests) is 採掘基地防衛戦, which translates as Mining Base Defensive War.

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 01:21 AM
On the topic of language differences, I'm the one who suggested 'Noire Draal' be rendered as Noire instead of Noir.

inb4 people who don't know how french works complain about that

Cyclon
Nov 4, 2015, 01:24 AM
On the topic of language differences, I'm the one who suggested 'Noire Draal' be rendered as Noire instead of Noir.

inb4 people who don't know how french works complain about thatOh, so you're responsible for that!

So do we actually know it's a she and I missed something?

Kayarine
Nov 4, 2015, 01:25 AM
It's been a while since I saw the intro for it, but wasn't Tundra actually listed as Tundra in the intro? I can't remember anymore. The actual Japanese used for the area is 凍土, which translates as Frozen Land.

And Mining Base is actually just that. The full name of the quest (minus the subtitle for each of the different quests) is 採掘基地防衛戦, which translates as Mining Base Defensive War.

[spoiler-box]http://puu.sh/l8ND1/a81b26cb64.jpg[/spoiler-box]

And yes, I know it's synonym, buuut digging base sounds unnatural. :wacko:

kurokyosuke
Nov 4, 2015, 01:27 AM
Oh, so you're responsible for that!

So do we actually know it's a she and I missed something?

I thought it was obvious by her voice.


[spoiler-box]http://puu.sh/l8ND1/a81b26cb64.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Huh, go figure.

Cyclon
Nov 4, 2015, 01:36 AM
I thought it was obvious by her voice.Could be. Or a little boy.
It's not really proper french either way, but that's a nice touch and not that big of a deal. I just happen to have been curious about that for the longest time.

Maenara
Nov 4, 2015, 01:53 AM
Could be. Or a little boy.

Noire Draal is the exact same size as Dragon Ex and is even stronger, statwise, than him.
The large dragonkin have definitive genders - Vol Dragon and Burn Draal are male. Quartz Dragon and Crys Draal are female. Goronzoran and Dragon Ex are male. Zoron Goraal and Noire Draal are female.
Noire and Zoron are not mistakes, they have completely different voices from their normal variants.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 02:23 AM
thread went dead as fast as it went ablaze

i guess it's almost time for maint to be over

Cyclon
Nov 4, 2015, 02:32 AM
Noire Draal is the exact same size as Dragon Ex and is even stronger, statwise, than him.
The large dragonkin have definitive genders - Vol Dragon and Burn Draal are male. Quartz Dragon and Crys Draal are female. Goronzoran and Dragon Ex are male. Zoron Goraal and Noire Draal are female.
Noire and Zoron are not mistakes, they have completely different voices from their normal variants.Honestly, wether male or female, Draal's voice is still clearly that of a child to me, so the size argument doesn't make much sense.
To put it simply, I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's female, but when listening to it I couldn't be 100% sure myself, so I thought that maybe there was another reason for that name, such as lore that I missed or something.
In the end it's the voice? Fine by me. I just wanted to make sure.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 02:37 AM
Honestly, wether male or female, Draal's voice is still clearly that of a child to me, so the size argument doesn't make much sense.
To put it simply, I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's female, but when listening to it I couldn't be 100% sure myself, so I thought that maybe there was another reason for that name, such as lore that I missed or something.
In the end it's the voice? Fine by me. I just wanted to make sure.

i believe in most lore female dragons are stronger than males ?

don't quote me on that

also when it's a little child there isn't a clear distinction on voices but even if it's not about lore it could be a pso2 original joke that the stronger rare version are cute young females

don't quote me on this either

Rakurai
Nov 4, 2015, 03:31 AM
Burn Draal sounds like a female to me, albeit one with a very raspy voice.

The standard Quartz Dragon sounds pretty masculine to me, but Crys Draal's voice is confusing.

landman
Nov 4, 2015, 04:01 AM
And no one is questioning how a huge creature can actually have human sounding voice, and girl-like on top of that? or are we all assuming the direct translator arks tech is that awesome? (it can't make sense of some Dragon sentences but it has an awesome selection of voices)

Superia
Nov 4, 2015, 04:14 AM
And no one is questioning how a huge creature

If we wanted to a point at which to conclude that the scenario is unrealistic, you do not need much more than this. Anything after that should be free from expectation.

raialeus
Nov 4, 2015, 04:17 AM
At this point, anything in the PSO2 world can be explained by photons.
I mean...you can go into the Este salon to change skin color, change voice tone, grow hair
with the power of photon of course. Translating language is just a one of the many effects of photon I am pretty sure.

Rakurai
Nov 4, 2015, 04:54 AM
And no one is questioning how a huge creature can actually have human sounding voice, and girl-like on top of that? or are we all assuming the direct translator arks tech is that awesome? (it can't make sense of some Dragon sentences but it has an awesome selection of voices)

The dragons are telepaths, so translators aren't needed, if I recall correctly.

Which also sort of justifies why they can sound normal.

Sayara
Nov 4, 2015, 06:42 AM
I was expecting we begun to translate what these creatures were saying and not the ethics of black white checkers planet.

alas.

Dreamwalk3r
Nov 4, 2015, 07:04 AM
The dragons are telepaths, so translators aren't needed, if I recall correctly.

Which also sort of justifies why they can sound normal.

True. I'm finishing Ep1 now and dragon telepathy was mentioned a lot of times.

Mattykins
Nov 4, 2015, 08:15 AM
My only real issue with the translation is Amduscia. Everytime I hear it said ingame, it's pronounced 'am-dusk-yuh', with the hard 'c'. When I see it, I immediately want to say 'am-doosh-yuh' and most of the people I talk to are the same way. Something about where at 'c' is stuck between the letters at the end, I guess. Is there any reason they didn't go with Amduskia or, fuck Amdusqia if they wanted to be special snowflakes?

Either way, at least no one's bitching about Vibras vs. Vibrace anymore :T

Anduril
Nov 4, 2015, 09:28 AM
My only real issue with the translation is Amduscia. Everytime I hear it said ingame, it's pronounced 'am-dusk-yuh', with the hard 'c'. When I see it, I immediately want to say 'am-doosh-yuh' and most of the people I talk to are the same way. Something about where at 'c' is stuck between the letters at the end, I guess. Is there any reason they didn't go with Amduskia or, fuck Amdusqia if they wanted to be special snowflakes?

Either way, at least no one's bitching about Vibras vs. Vibrace anymore :T
For Amduscia, it is derived from some of the spellings of the demon's name. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia#King_Amdusias)

KLMS1
Nov 4, 2015, 10:23 AM
Waitwhat - Naberius, Amduscia and Vopar (presumably a corruption of "Vepar") are all named after Goetic demons, of all things? o.O
Can't say I was expecting that.

...so I'm guessing "Lillipa" is a Gulliver reference then, given the size of the natives... :wacko:

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 10:32 AM
...so I'm guessing "Lillipa" is a Gulliver reference then, given the size of the natives... :wacko:

indeed it is

Arredoval
Nov 4, 2015, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't say "Shironia" is the same as "White Territory" or whatever, because they're being presented in English. What does "Shiro" mean in English? Nothing. It's not a word in English. It's a romanization of a Japanese word and has not been taken as a loan word. To say they're the same is to assume that 100% of the people who use the patch already know the Japanese words for "black" and "white". Not just "most" of them, ALL OF THEM.

The point of localization (which is what the patch is supposed to be a substitute for both because SoJ keeps pulling the plug and because they're so unsatisfied with Sega of Japan's AND Sega of America's work) is to bring it to an audience who doesn't speak the native language of the media. In these two names, it has failed, because in an English-speaking context, "Shironia" and "Kuron" are nonsense. Gibberish. They have no meaning.

Patch team ain't gettin' paid for their work, so they don't have jobs or profit to worry about losing if they don't pussyfoot around things like racial issues. If they were that worried about it, they'd change the "Black Slaughter" client orders to something else-- which official localizations actually did. And I don't remember pitchforks raining down when that's what they left it as.

"People will get confused" isn't a good excuse for not changing something, either. As mentioned, they changed a few area names and nobody lost their shit. They've changed monster names and nobody even brought it up as far as I know. (Aculpus > Aqulupus or whatever it was as an example) Hell, we actually have mismatched names floating around (Tundra/White Summit, Caves/Cauldron) and nobody's running screaming through the streets. Since they've changed them, the only reason for not changing them is because they don't want to, which they hardly ever do, even when they probably should be changing some things to fit with their own self-proclaimed naming themes. (*coughcoughMainbeltasteroid4354Euclidescoughcough ifEucretaisgoodenoughwhyisn'tChrotocoughcough*) So yeah, using that as an excuse is insulting both you and everyone else as if their whole world will come crashing down over a sudden name change.

Edit:
"Amduskia" and "Lillipur" have been used in other instances outside the patch. Lillipur would probably make more sense than Lillipa if it's a Gulliver reference. I don't know what anyone's thinking and I don't even care anymore 'cause it's not like they care either.

Also, wasn't the title "Best Worst Last Toys"? That's not nearly as engrishy. Not amazing, but not pants-on-head blind idiot translation.

Yden
Nov 4, 2015, 12:37 PM
My 2 cents is that if you wanted a more literal translation instead of going black and white people you could go the route of black and white clans. With that being said, I personally don't have a problem with Shironia/Kuron. Sometimes things need to change a bit when things a localized to better fit in with the language and culture you're targeting (and for technical issues as well). The current translation is good since the names are short and convey the original names although it'd probably be better to use different base terms than the Japanese words for the colors to make it easier to understand for people who have little knowledge of the Japanese language which would be the main users of the translation patch.

AmanoMai
Nov 4, 2015, 06:18 PM
I wouldn't say "Shironia" is the same as "White Territory" or whatever, because they're being presented in English. What does "Shiro" mean in English? Nothing. It's not a word in English.

implying names in Japanese when translated must be presented in their English equivalent

from now on these characters shall be known as

http://i.imgur.com/8fdCFrn.jpg?1
(his name is actually One+Protect/Guard but...I'm leaving strawberry cuz i can)




Also, Harkotan is based on Japan and the residents are from Japanese folklore
when thinking about the aesthetic of translations there's nothing wrong with keeping the romanized word, not like you need to know Shiro is white...
...well, not to the point of being butt hurt about "why isn't Shiro translated as White" .... anyway


http://i.imgur.com/QCNgCme.png?1
アヌシザグリ
Anushi-zagri

I have no idea what the hell does this name even means, does it mean anything in Japanese? maybe some one can enlighten me on that
but it works either way
at least it was not translated as Flying Toilet Paper

Nyansan
Nov 4, 2015, 07:27 PM
The point of localization (which is what the patch is supposed to be a substitute for both because SoJ keeps pulling the plug and because they're so unsatisfied with Sega of Japan's AND Sega of America's work) is to bring it to an audience who doesn't speak the native language of the media. In these two names, it has failed, because in an English-speaking context, "Shironia" and "Kuron" are nonsense. Gibberish. They have no meaning.


I find that blindly translating for the intent of localization without regard for the original context is no good aswell. SEA version's localization comes to mind, and there was a LOT of pitchforks raised over that especially by longtime fans of the franchise (remember 'Wizard'? or 'Samurai'? There are people not just in PSOW who are put off by these 'terribad' translations)

Agreeing upon translations across translation teams is not as easy as it sounds. You can't simply translate without checking and cross-referencing terms and ideas since it wouldn't make sense to translate without context.

I'm going to give an example. Suppose we do rename "Shironia" and "Kuron" into something else, we'd also have to rename the inhabitants (Shironians and Kuronites) into something aswell. But then again, given the theme (Kyoto/old Japan) of these places would it really make sense to do so?


Would you 'kill' the theme for the sake of localization just because it's something they don't understand instead of letting the player find out on his own why it's named that way?
Isn't it more fun to let the player discover on their own that 'shiro' and 'kuro' mean 'white' and 'black' in Japanese?


And besides, I'm sure half of the people playing this game are exposed to japanese words prior to PSO2. Shiro and kuro are EZPZ words to them.

Perfect Chaos
Nov 4, 2015, 10:26 PM
アヌシザグリ
Anushi-zagri

I have no idea what the hell does this name even means, does it mean anything in Japanese? maybe some one can enlighten me on thatIIRC, all of the Kuronite enemies are in the language of some old nomadic tribe that was in Japan. I don't remember the name of that, specifically, though.

Arredoval
Nov 4, 2015, 10:33 PM
Devs made it clear with their "Territory of White" title card that it was meant to be taken literally, whether that means keeping it as "Territory of White" or tweaking it to "White Territory" or whatever. If we're changing the original to whatever sounds better or fits the theme, let's change all the other area names, too. Localization did, actually, and I don't even agree with all of them.
Forest > Greenscape
Caves > Cauldron
Desert > Lost Sea
Tundra > White Summit
Tunnels > Underworks
Ruins > Grim Monolith
etc.
It's pick-and-choose whatever sounds best to your ears, not theming. That's what it's always been. Their "theming" translations aren't consistent, either.

Also regarding literal character names:
Then I guess Theodor should translate to whatever means"Gift from God". Hans should be "Yahweh is Gracious". Pretty sure your real name traces back to some ridiculous meaning, too. We don't say those names with the intent of "Gift from God" or whatever. We're supposed to be saying this area name with the intent of "land of the white citizens" or whatever.

AmanoMai
Nov 5, 2015, 12:19 AM
Devs made it clear with their "Territory of White" title card that it was meant to be taken literally, whether that means keeping it as "Territory of White" or tweaking it to "White Territory" or whatever. If we're changing the original to whatever sounds better or fits the theme, let's change all the other area names, too. Localization did, actually, and I don't even agree with all of them.
Forest > Greenscape
Caves > Cauldron
Desert > Lost Sea
Tundra > White Summit
Tunnels > Underworks
Ruins > Grim Monolith
etc.
It's pick-and-choose whatever sounds best to your ears, not theming. That's what it's always been. Their "theming" translations aren't consistent, either.

Also regarding literal character names:
Then I guess Theodor should translate to whatever means"Gift from God". Hans should be "Yahweh is Gracious". Pretty sure your real name traces back to some ridiculous meaning, too. We don't say those names with the intent of "Gift from God" or whatever. We're supposed to be saying this area name with the intent of "land of the white citizens" or whatever.

not gonna lie, your argument makes sense

yet, it's also simply running back and forth on what a person thinks sounds better to their ear, just like you said

when bringing a context from one language to another, there are many ways to do it and people can argue all they want about what is "supposed to be"

whether you change a location name to suits your own language or not is up to debate, do English people call Tokyo by anything other than Tokyo? does it even mean anything in English?
It does have some meaning when the Japanese people name it that way, just as Shiro has it's own meaning, but the location name are kept.

coming back be naming Shironia, it's neither Japanese or English that's for sure but it kept the meaning while having context in both language, Shiro as in the Japanese name for the location and westernized with -nia

it's a well-put name to me, dumb name to you ,that's not the problem

the problem is judging it as "wrong" and on a factual scale based solely on what do you "think" should be kept and shouldn't.

i wouldn't care if you say "nah i don't like this crappy name"
I was just skeptical about you people saying this is a "wrong translation"
translation and language their selves are flexible

to me all your complains was more about the aesthetic of the translation, the meaning are the same, it's just how you word it

Arredoval
Nov 5, 2015, 04:45 AM
Correct or incorrect, it still failed in what it was meant to do. You or I could give a poor lecture on any given subject and even if we're 100% correct, it's still a poor lecture and the people listening didn't get any useful information out of it, so it's a failure.

A thought just came to me, though. People outside a culture have been changing the names of other cultures in their own language for a long time. We call Nippon Japan, Deutschland Germany, etc. Changing a very foreign name is actually very fitting for our shitty culture. Now if only that was the reason behind changing it. Then again, I'm still against cheap jokes at a translation's expense, so maybe I'd still be sour.

Equilibrium reached.

AmanoMai
Nov 5, 2015, 05:17 AM
Correct or incorrect, it still failed in what it was meant to do. You or I could give a poor lecture on any given subject and even if we're 100% correct, it's still a poor lecture and the people listening didn't get any useful information out of it, so it's a failure.


if it was a guide book then sure
it is entirely one's own assumption that a "name" has to be a lecture about it's own entity (most of the time they're shitty lecture)

translation as a whole maybe just as you've said, a well presentation of what it was supposed to represent
though I'd agree so on the body of the story, something like Name would have more lee-way with it

maybe it's just me




A thought just came to me, though. People outside a culture have been changing the names of other cultures in their own language for a long time. We call Nippon Japan, Deutschland Germany, etc. Changing a very foreign name is actually very fitting for our shitty culture. Now if only that was the reason behind changing it. Then again, I'm still against cheap jokes at a translation's expense, so maybe I'd still be sour.

Equilibrium reached.

aye, now that you say it
we've been changing foreign names at our own convenience for the longest time.

i suppose whatever floats the translator's boat, really

this discussion has been rather unfruitful
just like pretty much all other discussion
but hey
i guess i gained some insight and info on a couple of trivial stuff, can't say I'm against that.

imo it's about time to let this thread kick the bucket, we've been throwing around the same comments for long enough

Rayden
Nov 5, 2015, 08:05 AM
Oh yeah, now I remember why they call it Kuron instead of Kuronia.

Shironia - ns -> Shironia
Kuron - ites -> Kuron

That's what they told me, anyways.

Their explanation sounds really dumb to me. Why does the name of the area have to be a shortened form of the name of the inhabitant? We don't always do that with real places. German->Germany, English->England, French->France, etc.

Kuron just looks terrible to me and I've always thought it should be Kuronia for consistency.

Dreamwalk3r
Nov 5, 2015, 08:11 AM
Their explanation sounds really dumb to me. Why does the name of the area have to be a shortened form of the name of the inhabitant? We don't always do that with real places. German->Germany, English->England, French->France, etc.

Kuron just looks terrible to me and I've always thought it should be Kuronia for consistency.

But M/F naming theme goes well with Yin and Yang. Though it should be Shiron and Kuronia then.

Achelousaurus
Nov 5, 2015, 10:16 AM
Their explanation sounds really dumb to me. Why does the name of the area have to be a shortened form of the name of the inhabitant? We don't always do that with real places. German->Germany, English->England, French->France, etc.

Kuron just looks terrible to me and I've always thought it should be Kuronia for consistency.
But it's done sometimes and that means it's 100% fine.
Case in point: Canada > Canadians.