Whatever Happened to Double's Victims?

[B.T.]

First off, let me say, spoilers abound here. If you want to avoid EP 3 spoilers, stop reading right now.


So, Double eats people and things, right? They ate Elder, Luther, App, and even us. We got out, since apparently ARKS are subject to special exemptions that don't apply to DFs.

But here is the thing- since Luther survived inside Double (and even became nicer, albeit as a consequence of his totally giving up hope for all plans in the outside world), it stands to reason that the other DFs which Double ate survived within it as well.

But then Double...I'm not sure how to properly phrase it, I guess. Put simply, Double transferred it's being into you to create the PD. Then that essence got passed around between Matoi and Persona, but that is neither here nor there.

Here is what I am wondering; what happened to the DFs trapped inside Double? First off, I don't even understand how we end up fighting Double in the PD quest, when they had already essentially stopped existing as Double by that point. But, let's assume there is a reasonable explanation for that. We fight Double, beat them, fight the PD, beat it.

But, given how much time travel and timeline manipulation happens in the story, I think it is worth mentioning that, even if all DFs ceased to exist when PD was beaten, they still exist in the past.

Look, for all of us who played the whole story, I think we can agree that things get nonsensical fairly frequently (like when our shell-headed Friend Cabracan randomly started talking like a pirate, for instance). People we thought were dead and gone (Ulc, Zeno) have come back from the dead, although those were thanks to us. I am wondering if someone else (maybe an Ep4 villain) who can manipulate time may come forward in the future and rescue any of the DFs from Double. After all, Elder/Gettemhart's death was great for Shina getting the closure she needed, but from a storytelling perspective, it doesn't feel like Elder's character arc finished, even if Mel and Gettemhart got their closure. Furthermore, I am really confused as to how App turns up in TD4, if she was eaten by Double. Either it takes place in the past, which would be insane for an EQ and make the appearance of infected AIS seem odd (why would they only show up in the past?), or the EQ takes place in the present.

Well, in the present, we have already defeated Double and the PD. App should be dead, if she was trapped inside Double when we destroyed them. And yet, she is in TD4.

Obviously, all of this is just theoretical, but the appearance of App in TD4 makes me think she must have escaped Double. If she did, maybe the other DFs may have as well. So....What do you guys think?

[D-Inferno]

TD4 features Apprentice's Falz "body" (recall how Elder was sealed in the ruins pillar; but his "body" was in the giant tree). The part of Apprentice that Double ate doesn't appear to be involved with TD4, unless I'm mistaken.

[Maenara]

Due to Matoi shenanigans, Double actually only ate like, 10% of Apprentice. 5% got passed to Eucrita, and the other 85% was sealed in Lillipa.

Also, I have a theory that Episode 4's planet is the same one that Double ate.

[LonelyGaruga]

Gonna break everything down by paragraph to address things a bit better. By the way, you might want to edit your thread title to say *SPOILERS*, just to be safe. No harm in doing that after all.


So, Double eats people and things, right? They ate Elder, Luther, App, and even us. We got out, since apparently ARKS are subject to special exemptions that don't apply to DFs.

But here is the thing- since Luther survived inside Double (and even became nicer, albeit as a consequence of his totally giving up hope for all plans in the outside world), it stands to reason that the other DFs which Double ate survived within it as well.

Matoi and the player are specifically special exceptions because of their ability to absorb darkers. What [Double]'s innerverse does is it breaks things down into negative photons, which [Double] can then use to produce clones. Luther is immune to this process because he is a Photoner. His Dark Falz self was consumed in the process, leaving the Photoner Luther. [Elder] did not have a Photoner as a host, and [Apprentice] was siphoned off directly, so they did not exist within [Double].


But then Double...I'm not sure how to properly phrase it, I guess. Put simply, Double transferred it's being into you to create the PD. Then that essence got passed around between Matoi and Persona, but that is neither here nor there.

Here is what I am wondering; what happened to the DFs trapped inside Double? First off, I don't even understand how we end up fighting Double in the PD quest, when they had already essentially stopped existing as Double by that point. But, let's assume there is a reasonable explanation for that. We fight Double, beat them, fight the PD, beat it.

[Double] blasts the player with all of the negative photons that they had absorbed throughout the story in order to transform them into the Profound Darkness. Probably this was their innerverse as well, since this is the only time that [Apprentice]'s absorbed essence would come into contact with both the player and Matoi. Matoi had been purged of all of the darkers she absorbed back in 2-6 and only fought clones of [Apprentice] afterwards. What this means for Luther and Magatsu and the Kuronians is unclear as of right now.

As for fighting Dark Falz Double, the Profound Darkness creates a barrier guarded by mass produced clones of them to stall for time while it attempts to destroy Naberius to absorb it to return to full strength. The Profound Darkness can produce clones of the other Dark Falzes as well, as it does in 3-7.


But, given how much time travel and timeline manipulation happens in the story, I think it is worth mentioning that, even if all DFs ceased to exist when PD was beaten, they still exist in the past.

Outside of what happens to Matoi, which was instigated by Clarissa, all time travel is merely temporary and causes no displacement. No time travel can undo events that have already been shown to us within the story, as otherwise they would contradict what happened. Taking Zeno and Ulc's deaths for example, they never actually did happen because the player time travels to stop them. Time travel lets the player be in two places at once. I'm saying this just to establish the limitations on time travel within the story for future reference.
EDIT: Forgot about [Persona]. [Persona]'s methods of time travel are completely unknown currently so it isn't really clear how they fit into the grand scheme of things.

As for Dark Falz Apprentice, what happened to [Apprentice] was that Matoi sealed the majority of her inside of Lilipa. She then went on to attempt to possess Euclita, only for the rest of her to be consumed by [Double].

I might as well add, the Dark Falz bodies themselves are constructed from negative photons by a Dark Falz. Both [Elder] and [Loser] use negative photons gathered from their surroundings ([Elder] from his Falz Arms, [Loser] just absorbing the photons directly) to initiate the transformation. [Apprentice]'s sealed power is somewhat similar, in that it was inert inside of Lilipa up until the events of 3-8, which provided a spark for it to transform on its own. The body of a Dark Falz appears to be closer to something inherently inside of them under normal circumstances, but also requiring additional negative photons to be given form. It appears that the bodies may also have their own intelligence along the same level as a regular darker, as [Apprentice]'s sealed body takes initiative of its own accord despite being formless and without control under [Apprentice].

Actually, about what happened with Matoi, probably the most accurate thing that can be said is that what Matoi sealed was only the body. How much of that constitutes a Dark Falz is unclear. [Elder] and [Loser] both complain about their power being drained by the player, and this lost power is why [Double] produces faulty clones, but this lost power doesn't stop [Elder] from transforming into Dark Falz Elder, and [Apprentice] lacking her body doesn't stop [Double] from making essentially perfect clones of her.

[Renvalt]

Got a question for you Garuga: if PD's incessant death and rebirth via the whole time-travel shenanigans (invoking time travel to re-emerge at the point of their ascendance as PD), would that not also provide some degree of a logical explanation as to why we could fight Elder and Loser?

Like, for example, if all the Elders and Losers we've been fighting thus far (sans the Elder in XQ) are basically copies created by PD invoking Double's power, then would it explain how those moments effectively seem infinitely re-occurring?

Or is there another way we could plausibly explain how Elder and Loser keep resurfacing even after we've experienced those moments in the story?

[Hysteria1987]

*Puts on eerily lifelike mask of Garuga's face*I'd always figured beating a Falz the way we do just isn't a permanent thing- we wreck their bodies, but they escape, regain their powers and regenerate it. That, or they do the whole life/death/rebirth thingy that Falz did in the original PSO.

After the whole all-the-Falzes-got-eaten thing, and then Double getting rekt, time travel might be the only plausible explanation left. Double comes back with PD, and we all know what a mess those creepy kids can make with their doppleganger nonsense.*end Garuga-face*

[Saagonsa]

Or is there another way we could plausibly explain how Elder and Loser keep resurfacing even after we've experienced those moments in the story?

Those EQs canonically happen once and only once? I highly doubt ARKS could sustain despite the constant destruction of their ships and the takeover of their mothership at the rate the quests occur.

Oh, also in 2-5 Regius (or was it Maria?) mentions the war against Elder as a recent singular event.

[yoshiblue]

In a way, I guess you could also look at the matter board. It may be the reason you can still access the past even when you don't need to anymore. Would be funny if our characters have one of those days where they wake up repeating yesterday. On the other hand, you can undo mistakes. So that's cool.

[NoobSpectre]

Well, aside from Elder's defeat, there's no showing they shrugged off the body and come back repeatedly for true bodies. The EQ itself is actually a single event.

Dark Falz Elder Fight is only after 1-8, then 1-11 is the celebration of ARKS defeating Elder by... killing more natives and darkers. Maybe Elder goes Darker Den for duty and slips off to battle us in free field out of boredom.

Dark Falz Loser is after 2-5, then bam, Regius OHKO strike and eaten by Double, maybe that strike, powerful to kill as it is, only managed to weaken the bond of negative photon until Double absorbs it and seperates from normal Luther. (not proven theory)

Double is straightforward as well as PD. Apprentice is also mentioned above so I won't say any further (nothing to say further anyway).

The reason they keep coming back... gameplay reasons obviously. Unless SEGA goes sadistic and implement a event which is "You can only do it once, scheduled only on a specific date only, and good luck with the less than 1% RDR. or 100 times less to get what you really want. Rekt when you missed that 30 minutes/1hour" issues.

[Selphea]

I think the post-EQ cutscenes explain why each of them are able to come back

Elder - "Lol that was fun, as long as I have my body, I can keep coming back ufufufu"
Loser - Double made a bunch of dupes using CheatEngine. Mothership is probably also a dupe.
Elder/Loser Post-Double - Double nommed both and duped both.
PD - It escapes to do the same thing it does every night Pinky.

Although canonically it probably happens only once, kind of like how the Lich King dies only once (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZRDo6HkXys).

[Meteor Weapon]

Elder repeatedly comes back at ARKS Ship Wreck that he already busted in the first fight just for lolz. If ARKS failed to push back Elder, ARKS would only be forced to relocate at another area of space.

Apprentice kept on zerg rushing at Mining Base cuz she can't find what she wanted.

Loser was genuine at first, but then got cloned by Double.

Elder/Loser are clones made by Double/Profound Darkness.

Profound Darkness got stuck in a time loop by Persona.

Apprentice's Body....we'll know soon enough.

[Selphea]

Apprentice ;_; #foreverbronze

[LonelyGaruga]

Got a question for you Garuga: if PD's incessant death and rebirth via the whole time-travel shenanigans (invoking time travel to re-emerge at the point of their ascendance as PD), would that not also provide some degree of a logical explanation as to why we could fight Elder and Loser?

Every PD fight actually happens and isn't a case of time looping. PD escapes to a different time period to recover from each fight, then returns to the present to try to absorb Naberius again. Xiao explains that the player will absorb a little bit of PD's strength after each fight, so it would appear that unlike DF Elder (he destroys an ARKS ship every EQ instance, this can't be canon) and DF Loser (2-5 scene shows he dies, none of the clones by [Double] can talk and likely can't transform into DF Loser), there's an actual explanation as to how it can continue happening.

[Meteor Weapon]

In latest translation, Xiao says those who joined to fight PD and PD itself got stuck in a time loop, which honestly doesn't make any sense since everyone including MC and Matoi are standing there on the flower field. Translation error or that's what happened since Xiao never said about PD returning to its timeline.



So it would appear that unlike DF Elder (he destroys an ARKS ship every EQ instance, this can't be canon)


Could be just Elderp kept on visitting the ARKShip Wreck over and over just to screw around. *shrugs*


and DF Loser (2-5 scene shows he dies, none of the clones by [Double] can talk and likely can't transform into DF Loser), there's an actual explanation as to how it can continue happening.

What's the explanation then, since the only thing that makes sense is Double cloning him over and over for us who don't have a shred of knowledge with what's going on behind other JP texts we don't even know. Xiao's lobby option which could probably explain stuff was never translated so far.

[Selphea]

I think Elder just goes to the same ship. The post-Elder cutscene shows Elder and the other DFs chatting on that ship .

The biggest plot holes for me are first, how the heck player characters can fall onto the platform in PD... in space, and second, why does it make more sense to spare Matoi and let an Ancient Evil that casually spawns beings capable of wrecking entire planets run free. Also why PD doesn't simply distract the ARKs by getting a Double clone to invade the mining base with Kuronians and Magatsu before trying to devour Naberius, considering it has an eternity of timelines to strategize and all.

[LonelyGaruga]

In latest translation, Xiao says those who joined to fight PD and PD itself got stuck in a time loop, which honestly doesn't make any sense since everyone including MC and Matoi are standing there on the flower field. Translation error or that's what happened since Xiao never said about PD returning to its timeline.

Could be just Elderp kept on visitting the ARKShip Wreck over and over just to screw around. *shrugs*

What's the explanation then, since the only thing that makes sense is Double cloning him over and over for us who don't have a shred of knowledge with what's going on behind other JP texts we don't even know. Xiao's lobby option which could probably explain stuff was never translated so far.

I don't think that's an accurate translation, given that it makes no sense. At all. A friend of mine translated it so I'm going off what they told me but it'd be easy to translate by just watching a recording of the scene and writing out all the text. PD doesn't originate from a different time period, rather, it's capable of distorting time. It uses that ability to hide safely while it recovers its strength.

Given that the EQ message is that DF Elder attacked an ARKS ship, I don't think so. If it was one he already destroyed then he wouldn't be attacking an ARKS ship at all, and ARKS are supposed to be traveling. They don't stay in the same place in space forever or anything like that, so any wreckages created by DF Elder would be left behind. I mean DF Elder could be destroying an ARKS ship every time the EQ happens, but canonically, it only happens once...but that's just the same as saying there's no explanation to me.

I think you might have misunderstood the context. Here's what I meant.


Xiao explains that the player will absorb a little bit of PD's strength after each fight, so it would appear that unlike DF Elder...and DF Loser...there's an actual explanation as to how it can continue happening.

No explanation for Loser either, who's the most blatant case. EQs are generally a major case of gameplay and story being separated anyway.


I think Elder just goes to the same ship. The post-Elder cutscene shows Elder and the other DFs chatting on that ship .

The biggest plot holes for me are first, how the heck player characters can fall onto the platform in PD... in space, and second, why does it make more sense to spare Matoi and let an Ancient Evil that casually spawns beings capable of wrecking entire planets run free. Also why PD doesn't simply distract the ARKs by getting a Double clone to invade the mining base with Kuronians and Magatsu before trying to devour Naberius, considering it has an eternity of timelines to strategize and all.

Yeah, and then ARKS leaves it behind most likely. [Elder] saying that he'll keep terrorizing ARKS indicates to me that's supposed to be an explanation of how the EQ keeps happening, but he can't revisit the same wreckage each time, and he can't destroy one of the finite number of ships every time the EQ happens. Either way, it seems to be a handwave and a "Don't think about it too much" type of thing, which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all.

As for Matoi and PD, from the start of the story, the goal Xion had assigned the player was to rescue Matoi. It doesn't make sense weighing the potential consequences, but Xion's overall goal appears to be to create a path that will destroy the PD (or at least render its threat null) without sacrificing Matoi to do so. Furthermore, killing Matoi is what prompts the player to become [Persona]. They themselves reject that killing Matoi is truly the correct choice. The player character prioritizes Matoi over the safety of the universe. Sensible or not, they want to save her whatever the consequences are. From a Japanese storytelling perspective, this is simply a demonstration of determination to accomplish a goal. The consequences don't matter because the goal and the will to carry it out are more important. While from a Western perspective, this can come off as selfish, irresponsible, and destructive.

This is emphasized by [Persona] frequently telling the player Matoi can't be saved ([Persona] having lost sight of the original goal and being reminded of what they truly wanted only by the player's own determination to see it through), Matoi being "destined" to become the PD, the time loop [Persona] and the player go through trying to rescue her, and omniscience and its limitations being key parts of the story. The player character's end goal is basically a big middle finger to the ways of the universe by doing what's supposed to be impossible. Which is...a lot of stories in general.

And PD doesn't do that stuff because it can't. Especially the Magatsu and Kuronian stuff. The only real "plot hole" there is the falling onto that small ARKS craft while in space, but at least the characters fall toward Naberius. One could excuse it as either Naberius' gravitational pull being that strong, or the drill that PD creates having a gravitational pull strong enough to draw objects toward it. Or even photons. But really, how many games get gravity right? It's such an inconsequential thing that it hardly even matters. The scene could have been done with the ARKS craft flying up to catch the characters while they float in space...but wouldn't that have looked really lame compared to how the scene works now? Compromises have to be made sometimes.

[KLMS1]

Technically there's no reason [Loser] can't get his ass kicked any arbitrary number of times until his canonical death scene you know... Unlike [Elder] his visits don't involve the visible destruction of Fleet vessels either - and unlike Octoface who's specifically noted to be capable of moving at very high speeds in space (nevermind now his Arms), the Mothership is unlikely to be maneuverable enough to actually chase down individual ships. (FWIW my working hypothesis is he's just trying to get close enough to start teleporting his minions into them instead.)

[yoshiblue]

[SPOILER-BOX]The biggest plot holes for me are first, how the heck player characters can fall onto the platform in PD... in space, and second, why does it make more sense to spare Matoi and let an Ancient Evil that casually spawns beings capable of wrecking entire planets run free. Also why PD doesn't simply distract the ARKs by getting a Double clone to invade the mining base with Kuronians and Magatsu before trying to devour Naberius, considering it has an eternity of timelines to strategize and all.[/SPOILER-BOX]
Because good is dumb and evil is better.


[SPOILER-BOX]The only real "plot hole" there is the falling onto that small ARKS craft while in space, but at least the characters fall toward Naberius. One could excuse it as either Naberius' gravitational pull being that strong, or the drill that PD creates having a gravitational pull strong enough to draw objects toward it. Or even photons. But really, how many games get gravity right? It's such an inconsequential thing that it hardly even matters. The scene could have been done with the ARKS craft flying up to catch the characters while they float in space...but wouldn't that have looked really lame compared to how the scene works now? Compromises have to be made sometimes.[/SPOILER-BOX]
I bet its magnetic photon boots, yo. It's how we also fight Elder. :wacko:

[KLMS1]

You fight the Acid Disney Castle(s) on some kinda vast glowing grid IN SPACE that PD pretty much conjured outta its ass. Odd local gravity effects aren't even worth mentioning in the context, and are probably generated by the transport platform vessel anyway when it comes down to that.

This is a civilisation that casually employs gravity manipulation for *fashion accessories* after all.

[Alenoir]

Every PD fight actually happens and isn't a case of time looping. PD escapes to a different time period to recover from each fight, then returns to the present to try to absorb Naberius again. Xiao explains that the player will absorb a little bit of PD's strength after each fight, so it would appear that unlike DF Elder (he destroys an ARKS ship every EQ instance, this can't be canon) and DF Loser (2-5 scene shows he dies, none of the clones by [Double] can talk and likely can't transform into DF Loser), there's an actual explanation as to how it can continue happening.

Pretty sure the explanation given by Xiao was that by weakening PD enough, we gave Persona enough opening to revert its own time back to right before Profound hits Naberius. There were no mention about Profound escaping to another time period, just how long Persona can hold Profound off before Profound take over its consciousness and attacks again.

[LonelyGaruga]

Oh, then it's a little different from what I thought it was. Well that explains why Naberius' damage is reversed like that in the CG scene. That looked utterly ridiculous from a logical viewpoint initially, even if it was animated pretty well.

Though I'm not really sure whether that's all that happened since if [Persona] has PD under control and is still in the present, then ARKS could just pursue them and eliminate them at their weakest point. PD keeps attacking Naberius because that's the planet that's closest to it, so it can't be traveling in space or anything like that. The time period thing I was referring to was more like time travel to basically any other moment in time since it wouldn't be possible to pursue it that way.

Well I guess I should get around to translating the cutscene after PD myself sometime.

[Alenoir]

We're not close to eliminating Profound right now, according to story. The current setting is that we can only weaken Profound enough for Persona to time warp and stuffs. Xiao said he doesn't know how long Persona can keep on doing this and he's working on finding a solution to end it all together.

[LonelyGaruga]

That's what I was saying (minus the Xiao bit).

[Alenoir]

Whoops might have read your post wrong up there, only did a quick glimpse 'cause I'm supposed to be working.

I remember the Japanese community joked about us creating the Great Light to counter PD... Wonder if this will actually happen. >.>

[Meteor Weapon]

That would sound like PSO2 is the prequel of all Phantasy Star series, but then again Phantasy Star 4 explained it different.

Are we even fighting the real Profound Darkness or just fighting it's "Avatar"? The ingame story explains that Profound Darkness was made up by massive accumulation of negative photons through Xion's Clone. though I have a theory that accumulated energy on that clone is just another opening door/temporary host for the True Profound Darkness instead of making what it is. Maybe it would reveal itself in the future as Amplam Umbla once it truly reveals itself since that was the Profound Darkness of Phantasy Star Online in Episode 3 that some people theorized it to be.

[LonelyGaruga]

I'd call Xion a Great Light equivalent if it weren't for the fact that all the PS terminology tends to get reused. She's a good fit otherwise, especially with her clone becoming PD.

I don't see any basis for the idea that the current PD is anything but the real one, just still returning to the height of its power. As it currently is, it can already twist time and destroy planets. That already makes it far, far more powerful than anything in the setting. My current impression of PD is that it's at the bare minimum of its actual strength, given that its only priority is to return to full strength, it stalls for time with Dark Falz Double, it uses Anga to leech off Ultimate Lilipa...that's not really the type of behavior that one would expect from something supposedly capable of ruining the universe.

And I thought Amplam Umbla (is Umbla a translation error of Umbra or intentional?) was supposed to be an immature Dark Falz.

[Meteor Weapon]

Quote'd from a discussion in youtube, there's another that supports the theory but i forgot where it is.

"Amplam Umbra's design is more of an amalgamation of everything that you fought in PSO up until that point. This is highly indicative of it being the higher power from Dark Falz, AKA the Profound Darkness. As a series that is prolific with translation errors, this is most likely the case as they always refer to the origin of Germ to come from "The Great Shadow" which is very similar to The Profound Darkness."

[LonelyGaruga]

Amplam Umbra's name is based on the Latin words amplus (from which ample is derived from) and umbra (which means shade, shadow, etc). That's where the Great Shadow comes from, its name is basically the Latin equivalent with some corruption of the word (probably intended to be Amplum Umbra). There's no connection to the Profound Darkness.

Those words are totally unrelated in Japanese anyway. Really stretching with that idea. From what I was reading around, Umbra was created as a result of the time loop that kept Dark Falz/Olga Flow alive being broken. A regular character came about directly as a result of that, so it makes some sense that way.