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Petunia
Dec 21, 2015, 06:32 PM
So I'm currently using an Ideal Rod and have taken the skill that allows me to cast stored Techs for free when using a Rod. I view this as a big benefit on saving PP.
Now I've just finished farming 60 Anga stones and am ready to buy an Ares weapon, but I'm wondering. Is it worth buying the Talis instead of the Rod?

Pros
Cast close range Techs like Zanverse from a safer range.
Makes mobbing easier with safe Zondeel.
Gives me a filler to do when PP is low and PP Conversion is on CD
Higher damage for normal Techs (At least for Ice, which had several free SP so I threw them into Talis Mastery, but I can focus SP into Talis Mastery once resets come in Jan)
Usable by Techer, which allows for it to be used as a long range support weapon

Cons
Makes some techs harder to use
Costs PP to cast stored Techs, essentially making me pay twice to cast 1 Tech
Filler doesn't restore as much PP as Rod whacks
Lower Compound damage

Since I already have a 13* Rod, I'm leaning more towards getting the Ares Talis.
I'm wondering if any Force out there can advise me on whether to upgrade to the better Rod or go for the Talis. Ignore the need for Mastery, I can easily do that for Ice right now and can spec into that for Fire and Electric once we get our resets in Jan (I assume).

jooozek
Dec 21, 2015, 07:10 PM
just so we are on the same page:
1. you want to match the element of techs you are using to enemy weakness
2. you want to allign your weapons elemental attribute to the same of the tech you plan to use with the weapon because it matters for elemental conversion
3. you want to max out (60) the elemental attribute because it matters for elemental conversion

now that we are on the same page, i wouldn't bother with a talis at all unless you explicitly feel like you can utilize it well with the techs of the element you plan to use them with, it also requires 5 skill points invested in the talis skill that only works when the talis is out to be a bit worse/on pair/a bit better than a rod equivalent - that said, some techs are really bad with a talis, right of my head, for example, safoie, a tech that is pretty much staple in a fire force arsenal for bossing and melting zondeeled mobs, efficient craft allowing for massive spam of it; sabarta also has some awkward interaction with it which specifics i don't remember now but on the other hand, nothing you couldn't get used to, lightning, can't say much about it as it's not really needed in current "endgame" content

Petunia
Dec 21, 2015, 07:20 PM
Oh, I already know about that Joozek. :P
I'm already pretty optimized in that regard, but thanks for the advice.

The things you mentioned were the main reason I decided to use a Rod, it was just easier to use Techs with it and doesn't require you to stop casting every few seconds to throw out a new projectile to keep the damage up.

Maybe I should just stick with a Rod then.

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 07:54 PM
I would say Talis is just about the same as using a rod, I mean your gonna JA before the Tech anyways just your throwing something out instead of just swinging forward. (but you know, walls etc stopping the talis etc hazards)

I wouldnt say Safoie is a staple either, good spell though

Petunia
Dec 21, 2015, 08:13 PM
Another point for Talis is the ability to safely Zan without having to worry about the thing I'm trying to Zan murdering me for getting too close.

I'd like to hear a few more opinions that extend further than "Use talis because with mastery they're slightly stronger" that you normally hear from the denizens of B1

jooozek
Dec 21, 2015, 08:16 PM
not much else can be said about them, you could add a poll in this thread if you want to see how people see them but can't be bothered to post

Petunia
Dec 21, 2015, 08:19 PM
How do I add a poll?

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 08:20 PM
Another point for Talis is the ability to safely Zan without having to worry about the thing I'm trying to Zan murdering me for getting too close.

I'd like to hear a few more opinions that extend further than "Use talis because with mastery they're slightly stronger" that you normally hear from the denizens of B1
Rod= Nice all around use with High T atk on the weapon, best for Compound Spells.

Talis= 20% dmg increase and can out damage Rod when the Talis is thrown, not everyones cup of tea but if you get used to using it you can enjoy the extra damage and extra safety (have to re-throw Talis every 4 Casts). Not the best for Compound spells

Could debate the ol Rod vs Talis but I'm not interested in that, it'll all come down to you, really it's like Joozek said, not much else can be thrown out there about it

jooozek
Dec 21, 2015, 08:22 PM
checking now again, it seems like you can't add polls to already made thread now, i think you could in the past; you could try reporting your post and posting in the report a request about adding a poll and specifying options and poll question for the moderators, i think they can

Petunia
Dec 21, 2015, 08:28 PM
I guess I could get the Talis then, as if I'm not satisfied with the damage or find it too finicky to use then I can just go back to my old 13* Rod. It's not like it'll be relevant for much longer, as once the servers go back up there's gonna be a brand new 13* weapon to obtain.

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 08:34 PM
I guess I could get the Talis then, as if I'm not satisfied with the damage or find it too finicky to use then I can just go back to my old 13* Rod. It's not like it'll be relevant for much longer, as once the servers go back up there's gonna be a brand new 13* weapon to obtain.
This be assuming the potentials are actually good though

You still have Austere you can aim for if you want too

Edje
Dec 21, 2015, 08:34 PM
In my opinion, using tails or rods REALLY depents on what technics you are thinking on using, for exemple zondeel + ramegid is very good with tails, ilbarta is better with tais, most fire technics is better with rod, rabarta + zondeel is amazing in tower defence with talis. Light technics are decent with rod and tails

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 08:36 PM
In my opinion, using tails or rods REALLY depents on what technics you are thinking on using, for exemple zondeel + ramegid is very good with tails, ilbarta is better with tais, most fire technics is better with rod, rabarta + zondeel is amazing in tower defence with talis. Light technics are decent with rod and tails
Both have spells that work well or "normal" with each wep type, one spell that does not work well with Talis is Na Zan, I personally dont like Zan with Talis. Zondeel+Gi Megid best though

lunamaniac
Dec 21, 2015, 08:44 PM
Isn't safoie really really good with a Talis? I use almost exclusively Talis as a Force and it's my most used tech. If I throw a talis and use zondeel, and immediately follow that up with a series of safoie - then safoie will tend to hit everything in that group every time.

It's very effective without zondeel as well, and it's a lot safer than casting it from close range. I have no trouble hitting bosses with it either.

I recognize that my experience is weighted in favor of Talis, so I don't know if using it with a Talis loses some important quirk compared to with a rod - so if I'm wrong please correct me.

But if that's not the case, I can attest that safoie is perfectly usable with Talis and if anything safer and more damaging than with a rod or unthrown.

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 09:00 PM
Isn't safoie really really good with a Talis? I use almost exclusively Talis as a Force and it's my most used tech. If I throw a talis and use zondeel, and immediately follow that up with a series of safoie - then safoie will tend to hit everything in that group every time.

It's very effective without zondeel as well, and it's a lot safer than casting it from close range. I have no trouble hitting bosses with it either.

I recognize that my experience is weighted in favor of Talis, so I don't know if using it with a Talis loses some important quirk compared to with a rod - so if I'm wrong please correct me.

But if that's not the case, I can attest that safoie is perfectly usable with Talis and if anything safer and more damaging than with a rod or unthrown.
its a 50-50 thing for me with Safoie+Talis use (at least when thrown) I dont zondeel with it however. Its more up to the person if I had to say

jooozek
Dec 21, 2015, 09:00 PM
it's not about losing some rod perk, it's more about dealing with talis quirks like constant re-throwing+aiming after zondeel+3x safoie; also awkward handling as to the "wall" hitbox direction from what i remember, if you can handle that, then it's ok i guess, on rods on the other hand you can just jump in the pack, zondeel, and melt till zondeel goes out or mobs spread out, but now that we get passive territory burst i guess it could be passable
though, the worst thing to me is the whole "you gotta throw dat card bro or you missing out on a 20% damage multiplier"

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 09:02 PM
it's not about losing some rod perk, it's more about dealing with talis quirks like constant re-throwing+aiming after zondeel+3x safoie; also awkward handling as to the "wall" hitbox direction from what i remember, if you can handle that, then it's ok i guess, on rods on the other hand you can just jump in the pack, zondeel, and melt till zondeel goes out or mobs spread out, but now that we get passive territory burst i guess it could be passable
though, the worst thing to me is the whole "you gotta throw dat card bro or you missing out on a 20% damage multiplier"
was gonna mention the zondeel dangers like in UQ, chance of being killed sometimes with Rod

jooozek
Dec 21, 2015, 09:11 PM
well, in UQs you got the orbs on mobs that make them as one of things resistant to zondeel which slows the vacuum by a shitton, in lilipa UQ you get better results with gifoie which constantly stunlocks so talis would be the better choice for that specific situation

lunamaniac
Dec 21, 2015, 09:25 PM
My biggest itch with talis is definitely the rethrowing required.

When you have a finite source of pp I've found that rethrowing doesn't seem to impede my sustained dps though, as I make a small amount of extra pp naturally allowing me extra casts.

Thanks for clarifying that this seems to be a matter of taste.

I may as well build a small case for using talis overall, and provide some tips for using them:

*Flat 20% damage bonus when talis are thrown (5 skill investment)
*You can extend the range of techs and attack enemies and groups of enemies from further away (especially true if you utilize the fast throw skill)
*You can use techs that normally activate on your current position at a location of your choice. With practice you learn exactly how far the talis goes when you throw it and rarely overshoot or hit walls or the ground. This is incredibly useful, especially for Zondeel.
*You can hit enemies on the ground close to you by jumping before throwing the talis, I often do this to safoie a group of nearby enemies that otherwise my talis would soar past
*The talis doesn't disintegrate when hitting enemies or even solid parts of enemies like shields. This means you can throw it behind enemies that are weak on their backs and attack them from the opposite side.
*You can manual aim it into the air to fire over obstacles, this is particularly useful for tall bosses.
*Manual aiming lets you position the talis in one location and manual aim somewhere else making aiming around corners possible in a hurry although is quite challenging. You can't lock onto an enemy in advance then position the talis as that will dismiss the old target. Which is a pity.
*You can manual aim into the ground to cancel a throw. This is a bit fidgety but takes less than a second.
*With the support range increase skill for techers (forgot its name...) you can quite effectively "tag" players with status effects by quickly firing at them and just tapping the hotkey. This is incredibly handy when dealing with frozen players, doubly so if they're frozen in mid-air.
*Similarly it's very effective for casting resta at a distance, and very easy to pull off if you're reviving someone or watching someone being revived.
*For the last two I more or less always use manual aiming, as otherwise you'll aim towards any nearby enemies instead.
*Ilfoie is near impossible to use.

Ok, there's way more than that. But that's all I could think of right away.

Alma
Dec 21, 2015, 09:35 PM
isn't this more suited on game play section?

anyway how i see the rod vs talis situation is simple.
for me talis = a bit weaker rod with ALOT utility function that rod cannot have.
so i prefer talis anytime over a rod (well except for compound tech)

ArcaneTechs
Dec 21, 2015, 10:07 PM
well, in UQs you got the orbs on mobs that make them as one of things resistant to zondeel which slows the vacuum by a shitton, in lilipa UQ you get better results with gifoie which constantly stunlocks so talis would be the better choice for that specific situation
UQ was a bad example since well zondeel not as effective but TD's Goldohra's can be an example of Zondeel= death. I think it's situational though idk, the AI may or may not destroy you.

as for Lilipa UQ, ya Gifoie being the main thing to spam there

Perfect Chaos
Dec 21, 2015, 10:15 PM
just so we are on the same page:
1. you want to match the element of techs you are using to enemy weakness
2. you want to allign your weapons elemental attribute to the same of the tech you plan to use with the weapon because it matters for elemental conversion
3. you want to max out (60) the elemental attribute because it matters for elemental conversion
Oh, I already know about that Joozek. :P
I'm already pretty optimized in that regard, but thanks for the advice.It was understandable that jooozek said what he said when you started the thread with...

Now I've just finished farming 60 Anga stones and am ready to buy an Ares weapon
...since this make it seem like you plan to use a 20-element Ares Rod/Talis.

Anyway, as for the current conversation, when it comes to Sa-Foie and Gi-Foie off of a Talis, Sa-Foie is more PP efficient, but Gi-Foie lets you stun-lock enemies and has a much wider range. The latter is much more useful in UQ Lillipa, since the stun-lock is a godsend and some enemies won't be pulled in due to infection, making the wide range also better. But I still Sa-Foie sometimes off of a Talis in UQ when I don't need the advantages that Gi-Foie gives at that moment in time.