Boy I can't wait until PSO2 comes out

[Uncle_bob]

It's gonna be great

Haha

[Noblewine]

Dream on bro.

[Zorafim]

It was great, once.

So long ago...

[Kondibon]

It was great, once.

So long ago...
... It was? ._.

[Noblewine]

Maybe when they made the Phantasy Star games for the Sega genesis or PSO.

[Zorafim]

... It was? ._.

When it first started, the balance was perfect. Enemies were difficult and required skill to defeat. Boss fights were epic. I did nothing but play it for weeks without break.
This was before weapon grinding, affixing, and sub classes. It went downhill since the level cap went past 30.

[Sp-24]

The only skill they required was Charge PP Revival, because Rafoie and launcher simply wrecked the game at launch.

I miss the simpler times.

[Noblewine]

I miss the simpler times.

Don't we all. Do game designers remember the ole saying "K-I-S-S (Keep it simple stupid)."

[Uncle_bob]

maybe when you nerds get tired of Stone Grinding Highschool Simulator you'll put on your big boy pants and play BDO

[shagia]

so move from dress up simulator to dress up simulator HD? lol

[BIG OLAF]

so move from dress up simulator to dress up simulator HD? lol

Hell yeah.

[Noblewine]

maybe when you nerds get tired of Stone Grinding Highschool Simulator you'll put on your big boy pants and play BDO


BDO? I rather play DDR since that game is better.

[PhotonDrop]

Anime is for losers lol smh 100

[RageousGray]

yo man...
I feel ya

[Noblewine]

Anime is for losers lol smh 100

Your avatar is from a game which is also considered anime. *shots fired*

[PhotonDrop]

Your avatar is from a game which is also considered anime. *shots fired*

Yeah, back when it was good. http://i.imgur.com/JGohFme.png http://i.imgur.com/OFnGEdv.png


[spoiler-box]Good God, this facetious iPhone-style posting makes me feel filthy! :disapprove:[/spoiler-box]

[Sayara]

100% Goddddshit eyebballs
good shit ya man

[PhotonDrop]

100% Goddddshit eyebballs
good shit ya man

Keep it 100 100 100
Like the Romans.

[Zorafim]

Anime was so awesome in the 90s.
What happened?

Avatar was the last good anime I've seen. And it's not anime!

[Noblewine]

Yeah, back when it was good. http://i.imgur.com/JGohFme.png http://i.imgur.com/OFnGEdv.png


[spoiler-box]Good God, this facetious iPhone-style posting makes me feel filthy! :disapprove:[/spoiler-box]

Touche pd touche.

[PhotonDrop]

Anime was so awesome in the 90s.
What happened?

Avatar was the last good anime I've seen. And it's not anime!


Aside from the obvious infestation of little girls, somewhere along the lines the suits decided action shows do not need a full budget. The animation suffers, and many frames are laughably poor quality. Take Dragon Ball Super for instance. Many times the drawing is so sloppy that deformed blob on screen just barely resemble Goku and Beerus will have an emoticon for a face. Even One Piece, one of the biggest money movers in Japan, has this problem. These are entry level shows intended for little boys, so they probably slap whatever they can together for the deadline. I hear Japanese air time is highly competitive, which is probably another contributor to this mess.

Further aggravating the situation are the sales of Blue Ray releases. What's thrown on TV is basically a teaser for these things. Entire scenes could be redone, or in the case of more adult shows, a nipple may be shown where there would have been steam conveniently obscuring everything.

I am no expert on the subject and a lot of this is hearsay, so don't quote me on it. In fact, I barely watch anime at all these days, so you should probably disregard everything I just said. The last one I saw to completion was Samurai Flamenco a couple years ago. Space Dandy seemed entertaining enough, but yeah.

tl;dr I hate trying to have a serious discussion in FKL so... butts :wacko: [/spoiler-box]

[spoiler]Also, western TV networks have major issue with action shows too. It seems like, if it's not a brainless comedy cartoon for children, it won't last very long.

I have a terrible feeling the highly anticipated third season of Samurai Jack will not get the fair shake it deserves.

[PhotonDrop]

One other thing: animation is expensive, always has been. People have simply become lazy in their efforts to hide their budget cuts.

http://i.imgur.com/Y9XbIlU.gif

[Zorafim]

Even with the problems that animation faces, I feel like it was way better back when we had less technology and money to throw at it. I feel the same with gaming too.

"It would take too many resources to fill this city with exciting things to do."
Then why was that not a problem a decade ago?!

At least with gaming the issues are lowered with indie game developers who don't have the same constraints bigger companies do, so they're still able to put out high quality stuff. Which is ironic. Because something needs more money, it's of lower quality.


At least live action TV is pretty great now. Though I do miss my animal-people and fights on the moon.

[Outrider]

Even with the problems that animation faces, I feel like it was way better back when we had less technology and money to throw at it. I feel the same with gaming too.

"It would take too many resources to fill this city with exciting things to do."
Then why was that not a problem a decade ago?!

At least with gaming the issues are lowered with indie game developers who don't have the same constraints bigger companies do, so they're still able to put out high quality stuff. Which is ironic. Because something needs more money, it's of lower quality.


At least live action TV is pretty great now. Though I do miss my animal-people and fights on the moon.

I have only the barest knowledge of how the animation industry works, but my understanding is that the popularity of cheaper animation software on the PC has led to a lot of studios slashing their animation budgets. Cheaper animation then means that budgets are cheaper, which reinforces the lower budgets. There are also bizarre situations where the show's continued survival is not based on the popularity of the show but on its external revenue drivers. A common example was Cartoon Network's Young Justice show from a few years ago. From what I remember reading, the show was pretty popular (and having just finished watching it on Netflix, it was always decent). However, its merchandise was not selling anywhere near what it should be selling, so it was canned. (Apparently, it was also canned because it was more popular with girls than boys but the marketing folks were only interested in the boys market.)


Why do games seem lacking, though? There are some pretty easy reasons to point to.

Games are much more complex these days. Complexity often leads to an increase in cost due to needing more time/people to complete the task or needing to license middleware software solutions.

So actually, it's pretty obvious why something that may have been easier on a lower-fidelity, simplified game from ten years ago isn't as easy to do in a major AAA budget game from today.

I mean, let's just think of an example and run with it. Let's look at something like Baldur's Gate versus the latest Dragon Age. In an area, you'll have characters who will give you quests. Why are there (probably; let's just assume) more quests in something like Baldur's Gate? I mean, in Baldur's Gate you only had to create a simple character sprite for the quest giver, not an animated 3D character model. You didn't need to voice them. The actual gameplay and navigation through the game world was simpler in Baldur's Gate, so you didn't have to spend as much time or money on QA to make sure the quest functioned properly.

(There's could be other non-tangible reasons, too: maybe they determined that nobody was bothering with the quests so they didn't need to create as many; maybe it's miraculously just as easy to create this content in the modern day but the company doesn't currently have as many writers as it used to; etc.)

It's just... not nearly as simple as it might seem. I didn't know half this shit until I started making games on my own and reading development blogs and going to games conferences and all that stuff. Being informed (on this and any other topic) is super helpful!

I don't mean to call you out or anything; I'm sure I've said exactly what you're saying in years past.

[Noblewine]

Cartoon Network and Disney are kinda guilty of replacing what made them good with garbage. I wonder if the employee of these channels have to sleep with a nightlight because they can't handle their issues properly and reality scares them. lol.....

I admit that I grew up watching J.I Joe, Thudercats (original one) Transformers, Swat Kats, Looney Tunes and etc. However, I find it sad people think violence, nudity or content that pokes fun at life, sterotyping offensive. I blame PC culture.

[Zorafim]

Hey I just wanna say that I typed a super long response that took a long time to write, realized it wasn't worth sending, and deleted the tab.

I'm gonna tldr it though. Media is boring when it comes from big companies because it's processed goods. They factory churn it. Each decision they make is based on how much money they'll get for their investment, which I can hardly fault them for. They're working in cramped offices, slaving over cold software, so they can eat and raise their kids. But in the end, that coldness comes off. The difference between a big company game and an indie one is like eating processed food over homemade. You may like the flavors if they're new and different, but it all tastes stale after a while.

That's why I'm glad we finally have alternatives. A man can labor for years and pour his love into his computer to make something amazing and unique. And it feels so much more human than what we've been getting these past few decades.

[Outrider]

Yeah, I can't disagree with that. A lot of creativity gets suppressed in big corporate works. Sometimes it still comes through and it's just magical, though.

But yeah, I am way more interested in stuff coming from indie or niche devs these days and then occasionally dip into the big budget AAA games.

(Though, to be honest, I do play a bunch of big AAA games because they're often on clearance for $10 and can be completed in a weekend, which is a nice diversion.)

[PhotonDrop]

Gotta maximize those profits! With the way things are going I'm surprised we haven't had a second complete market industry crash yet.

[Zorafim]

Complete it in a weekend? Aren't most AAA games 40-100 hour long monstrosities?


Gotta maximize those profits! With the way things are going I'm surprised we haven't had a second complete market industry crash yet.

Seriously. I can't believe people still buy big games. They're more expensive for lesser quality than what small names provide.

[Outrider]

Complete it in a weekend? Aren't most AAA games 40-100 hour long monstrosities?



Seriously. I can't believe people still buy big games. They're more expensive for lesser quality than what small names provide.

That's true of games like Assassin's Creed or Fallout. Open world games, essentially.

I'm talking about random action games. Like... I got the latest Splinter Cell game for $6 at Target. I played through it over the course of a few days and completed it. That was probably closer to 20 hours but still it was just a few days of play. It's nice to play games where I can finish them, put them back on the shelf, and feel satisfied.

I generally don't play big endless games anymore. I'll maybe play one every year or two. I've found that most of the content in those games is too much like padding for me to enjoy. My time is more valuable than that!

[Noblewine]

Gotta maximize those profits! With the way things are going I'm surprised we haven't had a second complete market industry crash yet.

^ Quoted for truth.

[Zysets]

Honestly, it's all business now, you still have a lot of game devs and animators who want to put their heart and soul into their work, but are stopped by the higher ups in the company because they can't be sure that these things will bring in profit.

Once a company is completely focused on profits, you get Silent Hill Pachinko machines.

[Kondibon]

Honestly, it's all business now, you still have a lot of game devs and animators who want to put their heart and soul into their work, but are stopped by the higher ups in the company because they can't be sure that these things will bring in profit.
This is why I'm so excited about the indy game scene, crowd funding, and self publishing.

[Zorafim]

We've already seen how amazing these games are. I think I've already mentioned them, but...
Shantae, Undertale, Ori and the Blind Forest, and Shovel Knight are all amazing games that put even the best console 2D games to shame. This is the future. Big companies just can't compete in terms of quality.

[PhotonDrop]

The big thing to keep in mind is that "indie" is not a collective. The term does not necessarily imply the product will actually be good. How many Avatar Zombie Voxel-based Survival games do you have to wade through to find a gem?

While Yacht Club and WayForward have delivered and established themselves as names to look out for, you have some like Deep Silver and Tale of Tales that ruin everything for everyone.

Who is in it to create something they are passionate about?
Who is in it to shovel out something for a quick buck?
Who is in it to throw their unrealistic politics in your face?
Who simply wants to use their clout to exploit people out of an extraordinary amount of cash?

In the end both "indie" and "AAA" have their dark sides. Always remember that.

[Outrider]

The big thing to keep in mind is that "indie" is not a collective. The term does not necessarily imply the product will actually be good. How many Avatar Zombie Voxel-based Survival games do you have to wade through to find a gem?

While Yacht Club and WayForward have delivered and established themselves as names to look out for, you have some like Deep Silver and Tale of Tales that ruin everything for everyone.

Who is in it to create something they are passionate about?
Who is in it to shovel out something for a quick buck?
Who is in it to throw their unrealistic politics in your face?
Who simply wants to use their clout to exploit people out of an extraordinary amount of cash?

In the end both "indie" and "AAA" have their dark sides. Always remember that.

Wait, wha? Deep Silver is a AAA publisher (so not a small "indie" developer) and I thought Tales of Tales developed art games (like the Walk).

But yeah, there's nothing inherently better about "indie" developers. There are lots that are just in it for a quick buck. I think that ultimately, the point is that an independent developer has fewer people who can tell them "no" when they have an idea. Now, that's not always a good thing! Maybe the developer has a terrible idea and wastes their life savings on a game that nobody wanted to play.

It's not like publishers just say no to creative ideas for the hell of it; they're trying to make sure that they can make a game that will sell enough copies to not only cover the cost of all the developers' salaries but to also turn a profit. When you're responsible for making sure that 100+ people are able to put food on their table and pay their rent, do you really want to take a risk on a weird retro game that appears to cater to a niche audience? It's not an enviable position to be in.

I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not like there aren't creative games coming out of major publishers. I've been enjoying Child of Light from Ubisoft (who has been releasing a number of interesting smaller games over the last few years), which is non-mass market creative game made by a smaller team. EA just released that weird yarn man platformer, Unravel, which I've heard some good things about.

Ultimately, I think part of that is that the AAA publishers are realizing that the "indie" scene is quickly becoming a larger part of their competition, so they're starting to greenlight smaller projects that aren't aimed at the mass market and have a creative spark to them. I think that's a great direction for everybody involved. I miss the days of the NES or even during the Playstation days where a weird game could be made by a small team and turn a profit even if only a small number of people are going to buy it. That was missing for a long time.

[PhotonDrop]

Is Deep Silver AAA? I apologize if I got that twisted, my intention was to highlight how Inafune raised millions of dollars and Mighty No.9 is still not out after all this time. Then there are shysters like Schafer whom cannot manage a project to save his life, yet people will shower him with money out of nostalgia for Monkey Island or Psychonauts. Insanity.

But yeah, you get the basic idea I was trying to convey; Indie is not inherently good, nor is AAA evil. It's not a black and white issue with defined lines.

[Outrider]

Is Deep Silver AAA? I apologize if I got that twisted, my intention was to highlight how Inafune raised millions of dollars and Mighty No.9 is still not out after all this time. Then there are shysters like Schafer whom cannot manage a project to save his life, yet people will shower him with money out of nostalgia for Monkey Island or Psychonauts. Insanity.

But yeah, you get the basic idea I was trying to convey; Indie is not inherently good, nor is AAA evil. It's not a black and white issue with defined lines.

Deep Silver was sort of a second-tier publisher for a while, but the first Dead Island made them a bigger player. They've been publishing stuff like some of the Metro games, the endless Dead Island spin-offs, and Saints Row.

(So, okay... maybe like, a single "A" instead of "AAA", but the point is: a big publisher.)

(And yes, I realize the "AAA" descriptor is mostly abstract and meaningless, but it's a term everybody uses these days so it's just easier to go with the flow.)

Mighty No. 9 is being developed by Comcept, an independent developer, but published by Deep Silver. Publishing deals can vary wildly, but it sounds like their deal is more of a distribution and promotion deal (help get the game pressed onto discs and on store shelves for a portion of the profit) rather than a more all-encompassing publishing deal (which can sometimes go as far as the publisher owning the IP moving forward). So the endless, somewhat embarrassing delays of No. 9 could be influenced by the deal with Deep Silver, but they certainly seem to be more driven by the development house.

Ironically, that's one of risks of having a developer set the schedule instead of the publisher: when the publisher wants a game out, they will get that damn game out if they really want to, regardless of whether it's finished or not. Removing the publisher and allowing the developer to control their own destiny obviously gives them the ability to continue delaying if they want to.

(For a somewhat similar example, companies like Nintendo and Valve are pretty notorious for delaying development for a similar reason, which is to say that they have the luxury of being able to delay a game for pretty much as long as they want to. When you don't have somebody breathing down your neck and holding a contract over your head, you don't have to rush. Sometimes this can be good and sometimes this can be bad.)

No clue where the Schafer hate comes from. Is this still the Broken Age stuff? I've only played a bit of the game but it was pretty good and from what I can recall it got decent reviews. From everything I read the game was largely delayed due to scope creep from the fundraising stretch goals. That stuff happens. Most games are delayed. The difference is that you normally don't hear about it because the developer is reporting that up to the publisher instead of directly to the consumers.

So lots of developers have to ask for development extensions from the publishers which leads to either an unfinished game going out or the publisher begrudgingly agreeing to the additional funding. However, this generally happens well before the consumer would ever see the game. It's one of the benefits of the closed loop development process between the developer and the publisher. Exposing the process to the consumers (like with a Kickstarter campaign) means that there's no longer a middleman between them and any bad news. Instead of the developer telling the publisher they need more time (which again, is far from an unusual thing), they had to go directly to the consumers, who it seems were largely not prepared for that.

I think a lot of people maybe don't realize how incredibly fraught with disaster game development can be. I've talked to a lot of people who basically see Kickstarter and Early Access as just as safe of a purchase as buying a released game from Steam.

It's not and it never will be. There are risks involved in paying for something before it's available (especially before work has even started on it!) and people should keep them in mind before they commit to that kind of project.

tl;dr: Kickstarter and Early Access are interesting tools that carry a lot of risk for both parties and also it seems like many consumers are suddenly finding themselves on the publisher side of the development relationship and weren't prepared for what that means.

[PhotonDrop]

Comcept, right. I was too hasty with my post to do a fact-check.

The excuses are beside the point. Situations like these ultimately show that people can, will, and have abused the trust of others. It's not good for consumer confidence. Caution should always be exercised but that does not invalidate anyone's complaints when they find themselves bitten.

[Noblewine]

Honestly, it's all business now, you still have a lot of game devs and animators who want to put their heart and soul into their work, but are stopped by the higher ups in the company because they can't be sure that these things will bring in profit.

Once a company is completely focused on profits, you get Silent Hill Pachinko machines.

The truth! =0

Their greed drove away IGA and Kojima. Capcom caused Inafune to leave. I wonder how long before Nintendo greed drives Shigeru Miyamoto away.

[Outrider]

The truth! =0

Their greed drove away IGA and Kojima. Capcom caused Inafune to leave. I wonder how long before Nintendo greed drives Shigeru Miyamoto away.

I think history (and the current bizarre two-game Star Fox pet project) have shown that Nintendo is entirely happy letting Miyamoto do whatever the hell he wants.

The only concern with Nintendo is whether or not the next president (as the current one is technically only an interim president) is more focused on pushing Nintendo towards what everybody else is doing versus the usual plan them Nintendo doing Nintendo.

[Noblewine]

I think history (and the current bizarre two-game Star Fox pet project) have shown that Nintendo is entirely happy letting Miyamoto do whatever the hell he wants.

The only concern with Nintendo is whether or not the next president (as the current one is technically only an interim president) is more focused on pushing Nintendo towards what everybody else is doing versus the usual plan them Nintendo doing Nintendo.

Fair enough.

[Scejntjynahl]

Been waiting for so long, I forgot what I was actually waiting for...

[Noblewine]

Been waiting for so long, I forgot what I was actually waiting for...

A high five? =o

[Dragwind]

Iwata on his deathbed:

"Miyamoto... take the wheel"

[yoshiblue]

Iwata on his deathbed:

"Miyamoto... take the wheel"

To be continued . . . (https://youtu.be/-Tdu4uKSZ3M)

[Sef]

Oh hey, Unk.

[PhotonDrop]

Sef! ;o

[Sef]

PhotonDrop! :wacko:

[PhotonDrop]

what's up dood

[Sef]

Wasn't sure if it was time for my annual visit.

I think I'm a bit early.

Or I've been doubling up.

[PhotonDrop]

Good to see you again. Stop by more often!

[Sef]

Ever since getting my password back, I've been making more attempts.

Well really, anything is more than 0.

I sure do miss this place, back when things were hoppin'...

Good ol' early ought oughts.

[Sord]

I can wait all the time in the world for PSO2 to come out in a western release, then still never play it. Because the hours I sunk into it through tweaker made it more than apparent that it wasn't going to hold my interest long. Also, fuck F2P and and cashop models.