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TaigaUC
Feb 23, 2016, 07:33 PM
Posting this as a heads up or for discussion purposes.
Thought it'd be better to make a new thread in General Discussion for people to see, instead of appending the Summoner thread.

It seems there's increasing concern over people leaving EQs if they catch even the slightest glimpse of a Summoner.
The problem isn't limited to ship 2 or foreign players.
Some people want to be able to check other player's pet level or candy setup, to see if they're up to scratch before they run for the hills.

https://twitter.com/baystars_23/status/700556582120108033
https://twitter.com/baystars_23/status/700557326068031488
https://twitter.com/baystars_23/status/700558565891702784

I don't know who that person is or whether those are official responses to the matter.
Perhaps this will make SEGA aware of issues with people leaving multis.

Some relevant discussion in this 2ch thread (http://yomogi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1455522055/), for anyone who's interested and can read it.

Anyway, I'm going to get some rest now. Feel free to discuss.

Crevox
Feb 23, 2016, 07:45 PM
This is nothing new for the game. People already do this, especially 2ch who list out the "parasites" and avoid them.

Summoner is just a common one, probably. It's attractive to newcomers, while also possessing a certain additional level of complexity not found on other classes. The class can easily be extremely weak if not set up properly (pet leveled up/statted, candy box, etc) and played properly (pet positioning, artes, timing, etc). People have probably associated bad EQ runs with the quantity of Summoners in the party, and it's not wild to believe that it may be very true.

EvilMag
Feb 23, 2016, 07:48 PM
It's okay. Sega will just make the new pets OP as shit. that'll solve the issue :wacko:

jooozek
Feb 23, 2016, 07:50 PM
the real solution is to remove EQs from the game

Iduno
Feb 23, 2016, 07:53 PM
Wow, that's lame, like whatever happened to just chilling and playing the freaking game, if they are that "serious" about what other people are doing these guys shouldn't even be playing with randoms in the first place but should be playing in co-ordinated teams of like minded people.

Like I get maybe leaving if someone is just idling in mpas or whatever, but otherwise that **** is whack.

Makes me want to make a cast fo/su running a dex mag and casting spells from the sub pallete whilst wielding a tuna just to spite them.

I'm glad I'm in a team and although I would like to pick up some Japanese language skills at some point I'm kind of glad I'm missing this without being informed here, this is straight up toxic.

Also like to add that I'm not even running a summoner yet, this type of crap just riles me, makes me glad the only competitive games I play are 1 vs 1, no-one to give me crap for playing how I like but myself.

Zeroem
Feb 23, 2016, 07:59 PM
This reminds me of a Summoner in SH that just stay in the top-left crystal zone during TD4 (MBD Demise incase you didn't know) for around 4 waves. Sure, that Su ended up 2nd place as Crystal God (yeah, score did not matter. Still worth some look on unique cases), but I won't deny that I want to punch that SU's face during his/her time of 'isolation'.
For bloody sake, your Torim would be useful in taking down the boss swarm during wave 3 instead for taking down the darker wall!

.........Well, that was one of the extreme cases though. I've seen some good SUs in high-profile EQ mpas, but that's once in the full moon. 90% of the time? Bad SUs all around (thankfully I haven't met one with +10 Axeon with Another History and Exp Boost augs......yet :v).
Not to add the association game, which are going strong as expected.

SU's reputation are not going to become better any soon, if the SUs did not upgrade their pets and playstyle properly.
And to be fair, checking the pet level would be a neat feature to separate 'bad' SUs and 'good' SUs on first-glance basis.

ArcaneTechs
Feb 23, 2016, 08:07 PM
Wow, that's lame, like whatever happened to just chilling and playing the freaking game.
This does not yield max runs possible

Class is okay but man, it could have been better, to think we could have gotten Shotgun, Slicer, Axe's, etc wep types but instead we got this

untrustful
Feb 23, 2016, 08:19 PM
Well Sus aren't ready to have maxed out candy boxes yet. A single pet needs 2 parfaits, 2 rolls, and 2 pancakes to just cover the essentials. But getting 2 different parfaits is difficult, there's currently only 2 offensive rolls in the game, one of them being only available with 250 ult nab crystals, and it's not as simple as making sure a pet has 6 cookies.

The class is still in the early stages of development for most people. What the concern should focus on is leechers, not whether a person's class is of a particular type.

pkemr4
Feb 23, 2016, 08:27 PM
Well Sus aren't ready to have maxed out candy boxes yet. A single pet needs 2 parfaits, 2 rolls, and 2 pancakes to just cover the essentials. But getting 2 different parfaits is difficult, there's currently only 2 offensive rolls in the game, one of them being only available with 250 ult nab crystals, and it's not as simple as making sure a pet has 6 cookies.

The class is still in the early stages of development for most people. What the concern should focus on is leechers, not whether a person's class is of a particular type.

whats the optimal setup for all 3 pets?

Azure Falcon
Feb 23, 2016, 08:31 PM
After seeing what an absolute shitshow something as braindead as an SH Falz Arms can become when you've got more than 4 Summoners in the group I'm not at all surprised people would act that way. It's a half-arsed money sink class that hasn't been out for long, so everyone is running around with garbage equipment and unoptimised play styles.

Tunga
Feb 23, 2016, 08:32 PM
I would leave too if i saw a few Su on maggy. The pug life life sounds horrible tho.

wahahaha
Feb 23, 2016, 08:33 PM
whats the optimal setup for torim?

6xトリム Elemental parfaits, profound invasion / magatsu parfaits. all of them above 10*

aiMute
Feb 23, 2016, 08:41 PM
Wow, that's lame, like whatever happened to just chilling and playing the freaking game, if they are that "serious" about what other people are doing these guys shouldn't even be playing with randoms in the first place but should be playing in co-ordinated teams of like minded people.
People who want to slack tend to say this. And while leaving because of a single or two summoners is stupid, having having to constantly carry a bunch of luxe guren spammers is not fun. It's very enjoyable to play with people who can get shit done and know how to do so especially after carrying a bunch of leechers.

untrustful
Feb 23, 2016, 08:42 PM
whats the optimal setup for all 3 pets?

Well I can tell you what trim needs:
Ideal Parfait (180kcm; 9% damage against bosses)
Hell-bent Parfait (Falz/Magatsu drop, 10% damage, 25% more pp usage)

Everything else applies to all pets:
Support Roll
Conversion Roll
20% Pancake
30% Pancake

Assuming you don't use lucky crepe for all of your pets:
2x atk cookies (depending on what atk stat you use, trim only has seven 2x2 spaces available on it's candy box so it's limited to 1 cookie/lucky crepe)

Everything else would be filled with 1 or 2 blow resist candy stick(s) and sdef sandwiches hp gummies unless it's sally/sully which attacks from a distance and is more prone to being ratk'd or tatk'd.

sesiom000
Feb 23, 2016, 09:00 PM
the real solution is to remove EQs from the game

This one million times!

But seriously whoever does this must have a shitty and sad life...
Everyone plays with what they want and Summoner is a pretty good class with good damage.
I too dont like lolis and i dont leave EQ because i see them on my MPA...
Those japanese are so anti social it hurts and another thing i hate about the way they play its that they always break the EQ by doing specific patterns or abuse spawn points...

wefwq
Feb 23, 2016, 09:11 PM
Summoner are not very good compared to any other existing class, yes.
Didn't have any good mob control capability, nor bossing.
They're just beaten by other class on every job available on MPA.

Though maybe it's because the class are just released?
I still remember how braver being mediocre back then, and entire shunkababy thing happened.

If we're following the same pattern, Summoner will receive OP buff like what happened to Br and Gu back then.

Tunga
Feb 23, 2016, 09:16 PM
they always break the EQ by doing specific patterns or abuse spawn points...

It doesn't matter what game you play. People will always abuse this kind of stuff.

TehCubey
Feb 23, 2016, 09:17 PM
After reading this thread I'm glad to play on a chill as fuck ship where leaving MPAs barely happens. It's still an occasional thing but usually due to bad/no WB on maggy or too many people using shitty 7* (uncrafted) units or ungrinded weapons - in other words actual incompetence as opposed to just perceived unoptimal/"weak" classes.

Korima
Feb 23, 2016, 09:20 PM
Just change the Summoner to summon Bahamut or something, battlefield isn't for fluffy pets.

sesiom000
Feb 23, 2016, 09:23 PM
Just change the Summoner to summon Bahamut or something, battlefield isn't for fluffy pets.

This made my day!
LOL!

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 09:23 PM
After reading this thread I'm glad to play on a chill as fuck ship where leaving MPAs barely happens. It's still an occasional thing but usually due to bad/no WB on maggy or too many people using shitty 7* (uncrafted) units or ungrinded weapons - in other words actual incompetence as opposed to just perceived unoptimal/"weak" classes.Based off what Taiga said in the first post, the real reason people are leaving is because they can't actually CHECK if the person has good pets or whatever, and I guess they don't want to take any chances. I don't think it's just because the class is "weak", unless people are also leaving parties because of Hunter mains and JB Bouncers. :wacko:

Rakurai
Feb 23, 2016, 09:30 PM
I haven't noticed this behavior on ship 6 at all, thankfully.

Incidentally, said ship has the smallest 2chan list of lazy/bad players out of all of them.

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 09:36 PM
I haven't noticed this behavior on ship 6 at all, thankfully.

Incidentally, said ship has the smallest 2chan list of lazy/bad players out of all of them.I want you to keep spreading this information so I can laugh when all the big headed people go to ship 6 and effectively make it worse because they weren't actually all that. :wacko:

Ryuuguu
Feb 23, 2016, 09:44 PM
http://yomogi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ogame3/1455522055/


Summoner pets count as enemies toward the spawn limit according to this.

raialeus
Feb 23, 2016, 09:49 PM
Summoner pets count as enemies toward the spawn limit according to this.

This isn't confirmed.
I read the entire thread before, and according to post 10, NPCs will react to Pets making them qualfied to be "enemies", and downtime for Rodos also seemed to be reduced making them qualified as "NPC".
But if all of these are true, then AD burst isn't even possible when you are solo-ing with Summoner.

TehCubey
Feb 23, 2016, 09:49 PM
Based off what Taiga said in the first post, the real reason people are leaving is because they can't actually CHECK if the person has good pets or whatever, and I guess they don't want to take any chances. I don't think it's just because the class is "weak", unless people are also leaving parties because of Hunter mains and JB Bouncers. :wacko:

Yeah, but this is when people should exercise some patience or goodwill, and not leave unless they see the summoners dealing shit damage.

Or at least judge the actually visible su equipment. If the units they have are decent and well affixed then the pet will probably be good too.

Shinamori
Feb 23, 2016, 09:52 PM
Based off what Taiga said in the first post, the real reason people are leaving is because they can't actually CHECK if the person has good pets or whatever, and I guess they don't want to take any chances. I don't think it's just because the class is "weak", unless people are also leaving parties because of Hunter mains and JB Bouncers. :wacko:

Never seen people leave due to hunter main or JB bouncers.

GHNeko
Feb 23, 2016, 09:53 PM
i dont want to say tryhards ahoy; but this is perhaps taking the game a tad bit too far.


that also sounds odd coming out of my mouth considering i'm a competitive gamer who plays in tourneys for other games but this is a PvE MMO that's essentially free. It's not like they're trying to qualify for ARKS GP or anything either. it just feels a tad bit excessive to jump ship so often and frequently because of too many unknown variables. but maybe im just used to getting the short end of the stick too often to actually care enough to do this shit.

im not a bad SU player but i guess no one can know this if they cant check my pet stats kek

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 10:02 PM
This isn't confirmed.
I read the entire thread before, and according to post 10, NPCs will react to Pets making them qualfied to be "enemies", and downtime for Rodos also seemed to be reduced making them qualified as "NPC".
But if all of these are true, then AD burst isn't even possible when you are solo-ing with Summoner.What's an AD Burst? Just asking because I've had solo PSE bursts in AQs as a summoner with a summoner npc partner.


Yeah, but this is when people should exercise some patience or goodwill, and not leave unless they see the summoners dealing shit damage.

Or at least judge the actually visible su equipment. If the units they have are decent and well affixed then the pet will probably be good too.People should exercise patience all the time. I'm not that patient myself though, so eh...


Never seen people leave due to hunter main or JB bouncers.My point exactly. :U A lack of WB or general disorganization with how it's applied are the main reasons I see people leave.


i dont want to say tryhards ahoy; but this is perhaps taking the game a tad bit too far.


that also sounds odd coming out of my mouth considering i'm a competitive gamer who plays in tourneys for other games but this is a PvE MMO that's essentially free. It's not like they're trying to qualify for ARKS GP or anything either. it just feels a tad bit excessive to jump ship so often and frequently because of too many unknown variables. but maybe im just used to getting the short end of the stick too often to actually care enough to do this shit.

im not a bad SU player but i guess no one can know this if they cant check my pet stats kekTo be fair, some people actually want to get a lot of runs in. It's less about competing and making the most of the limited window EQs are up. Why do you think people complain about a bad magatsu run and barely ever did about bad AQ, XQs, or TAs, even when they were relevant content? Which brings me back to pointing out that the EQ system makes everyone hat each other, starts wars, and gives drugs to kids.

Raujinn
Feb 23, 2016, 10:03 PM
I can't think of a good place for JB bouncers but I guess Hunter does sort of OK as long as it has an Ideal Partizan for the boss EGs and such.

I wouldn't go dropping a party for them. I'd drop if I didn't see a WB on Magatsu that's about it. I would be concerned if I saw a large number of Summoners in the boss EQs, mind...

raialeus
Feb 23, 2016, 10:09 PM
What's an AD Burst? Just asking because I've had solo PSE bursts in AQs as a summoner with a summoner npc partner.



Lurked on 2ch too much, AD burst is just a way of referring to AQ PSE burst, wasn't aware that it's not used in this community.
Though my point is, like you've mentioned, Pets have not been confirmed to have a negative impact on the enemy spawn limit just because they are classified as "enemies" by NPC's reactions or "NPC" by boss enemies' downtime.

the_importer_
Feb 23, 2016, 10:10 PM
Makes me want to make a cast fo/su running a dex mag and casting spells from the sub pallete whilst wielding a tuna just to spite them.

Oh my god my sides. You know you're a geek when you get these kind of jokes :p


I haven't noticed this behavior on ship 6 at all, thankfully.

Ya, didn't see anyone leaving MPAs when I was capping my Su class. But ya, not my favorite, doubt I'll be playing with it again anytime soon.


Incidentally, said ship has the smallest 2chan list of lazy/bad players out of all of them.

Well that's good to know.

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 10:10 PM
I can't think of a good place for JB bouncers but I guess Hunter does sort of OK as long as it has an Ideal Partizan for the boss EGs and such.

That was also my point. Su isn't that much worse if not equal to or better than JB Bo or Hu main. So either people are jumping the gun and assuming Su sucks, or they're just boycotting Su parties because the game won't let them use some other information to assume Su sucks. :wacko:


Lurked on 2ch too much, AD burst is just a way of referring to AQ PSE burst, wasn't aware that it's not used in this community.

I figured that's what it meant, I just wanted to be sure. :P

EDIT: I guess I should mention that sometimes they bug out on the damage parser and get named a random enemy.

SteveCZ
Feb 23, 2016, 10:32 PM
No such behavior in ship 4 pub. I don't really think it's a big thing.

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 10:35 PM
No such behavior in ship 4 pub. I don't really think it's a big thing.I honestly haven't noticed it either, but I have a hard time even getting onto an actual XH block...

Keilyn
Feb 23, 2016, 10:44 PM
This is nothing new for the game. People already do this, especially 2ch who list out the "parasites" and avoid them.

Summoner is just a common one, probably. It's attractive to newcomers, while also possessing a certain additional level of complexity not found on other classes. The class can easily be extremely weak if not set up properly (pet leveled up/statted, candy box, etc) and played properly (pet positioning, artes, timing, etc). People have probably associated bad EQ runs with the quantity of Summoners in the party, and it's not wild to believe that it may be very true.

New Character
12* Trim 10% Light
Nothing in Candy Box

Practically Annihilated everything in VH and SH. The only exception are the fast moving/fast hitting bosses that can actually kill the pet...causing the battle to take a lot more time than it should, but still winnable..

Summoner to me is the simplest class I've ever played in a game when it comes to Soloing....

As far as grouping goes...
Summoner lacks control and will just annihilates things....but if the pet goes to far outward or gets killed from the player trying to bite on more than he or she can chew or creating too much downtime in having to constantly heal/buff pet....

....then the DPS of the pet starts going to mush...

Summoner is a raw, destructive class which in the hands of new players has virtually no control. EASY to level up new characters with it.....

I mean shit...
a player challenged me to try to level a character on a 10* set of pets on another character (I have five characters so far) and thanks to what I learned in my initial run as summoner.....I did just fine and spectacular..

In fact, I started a series of videos I've debated on whether I should post or not, in which I ran through fourteen maps without taking a single hit from a monster playing as summoner.....and yeah, i am not the best player in the world. The best can just DODGE everything and destroy with pet...

However, thanks to SUMMONER, I did try and fell in love with a new Unit Experiment. ^_^

toragyo
Feb 23, 2016, 11:00 PM
Honestly, I think the main problem is that SU can't easily get a 12* or 13* pet. You do have Train triggers for Wanda but even then, he doesn't drop it often. I had a 9* Torim for a long time and even now, I've only ever gotten 1 11* Torim to drop and nothing higher.

Being able to inspect SU would be nice though.

untrustful
Feb 23, 2016, 11:02 PM
Finding 10*+ trim eggs is about as easy as studying gravity waves.

Keilyn
Feb 23, 2016, 11:03 PM
Honestly, I think the main problem is that SU can't easily get a 12* or 13* pet. You do have Train triggers for Wanda but even then, he doesn't drop it often. I had a 9* Torim for a long time and even now, I've only ever gotten 1 11* Torim to drop and nothing else.

Being able to inspect SU would be nice though.

What makes SUMMONER overpowered is that from Level 1, a player can have a 13* pet from the start...this throws any kind of thinking out of the room and while a player mirage steps out the way, he or she can simply right click and kill everything in the area..

Vopar Facillity EQ drops the 12* Trim egg

but even if you run with 10* eggs....
you can annihilate everything with ease at least until SH, where SH is an introduction to things catching up, but not quite...

...also I don't use WANDA...to me the dog isn't every good compared to the other two.

toragyo
Feb 23, 2016, 11:06 PM
What makes SUMMONER overpowered is that from Level 1, a player can have a 13* pet from the start...this throws any kind of thinking out of the room and while a player mirage steps out the way, he or she can simply right click and kill everything in the area..

Vopar Facillity EQ drops the 12* Trim egg

but even if you run with 10* eggs....
you can annihilate everything with ease at least until SH, where SH is an introduction to things catching up, but not quite...

...also I don't use WANDA...to me the dog isn't every good compared to the other two.

A new player will not have access to 13*s at level 1.

I have done Vopar many times and it hasn't dropped. My point is that every other class can buy their 12* weapons or get them from Zieg / other exchanges while SU has to use a lower rarity pet unless they get a lucky break

A 10* pet will do fine but when there's such a thing as a 13* pet, why wouldn't you want to have one? You don't need 13* or even 12* weapons to clear XH easily but it certainly makes it much much smoother.

Wanda is decent.

wahahaha
Feb 23, 2016, 11:07 PM
Finding 10*+ trim eggs is about as easy as studying gravity waves.

Which ship do you play on ? Im sure we could do some XHAQ for torims, Angel can drop 13* there.

Kondibon
Feb 23, 2016, 11:09 PM
...also I don't use WANDA...to me the dog isn't every good compared to the other two.



Wanda is decent.

Wanda starts to shine when you get to the point where Torim can't face roll everything before you run out of PP.

cheapgunner
Feb 23, 2016, 11:09 PM
What makes SUMMONER overpowered is that from Level 1, a player can have a 13* pet from the start...this throws any kind of thinking out of the room and while a player mirage steps out the way, he or she can simply right click and kill everything in the area..

Vopar Facillity EQ drops the 12* Trim egg

but even if you run with 10* eggs....
you can annihilate everything with ease at least until SH, where SH is an introduction to things catching up, but not quite...

...also I don't use WANDA...to me the dog isn't every good compared to the other two.

I see, that's where Trim's 12*is. I have just gotten a 13* dog and have only 10* trim and Sari. I agree with him that the 12/13* pets are pretty hard to get. I mustadmit the Dog is great for mobs though. If only techs casted form the pallete would appear from the pet themselves. >.>; *sound sa little overpowered though lol*

the_importer_
Feb 23, 2016, 11:11 PM
What makes SUMMONER overpowered is that from Level 1, a player can have a 13* pet from the start...this throws any kind of thinking out of the room and while a player mirage steps out the way, he or she can simply right click and kill everything in the area..

Vopar Facillity EQ drops the 12* Trim egg

but even if you run with 10* eggs....
you can annihilate everything with ease at least until SH, where SH is an introduction to things catching up, but not quite...

...also I don't use WANDA...to me the dog isn't every good compared to the other two.

Like I stated before, not a big fan of Su, but I have to admit the easiness of capping this class after doing all 8 others before that. Putting aside the fact that I went to Lv50 on day one using EXP tickets, getting to 75 was easy all while taking my time. Like you, I gave very little focus on candy boxes, using mainly PP candy sticks. What really helped was the fact that I went with elemental weaknesses on the Tree, having 6 birds with different elements and using Te as my sub for boosting and elemental weakness.

Most bosses didn't stand a chance, but mind you, I only went as for as SH, XH could have been a all new ball game.

Tunga
Feb 23, 2016, 11:18 PM
I don't see the problem with ppl using Su in EQ like TD, seasonal, etc. But magatsu and PD are those that shouldn't be used in. Last magatsu of this week i had to pug or miss out on 120 cubes. Was greeted with 4 Su in mpa but I did not leave. Not surprised they all got carried by taking the last 4 places in all 4 runs(using act). It was literally like playing 8/12 with 4 npc.

untrustful
Feb 23, 2016, 11:19 PM
ship 10

ArcaneTechs
Feb 23, 2016, 11:31 PM
I don't see the problem with ppl using Su in EQ like TD
Everything is wrong with it considering people can't properly kill things right with Pets there, sure they draw aggro but you aren't helping if you can't kill them quick enough

cheapgunner
Feb 23, 2016, 11:36 PM
Everything is wrong with it considering people can't properly kill things right with Pets there, sure they draw aggro but you aren't helping if you can't kill them quick enough

Exactly. Not to mention SUs in XH not properly fighting can cost the whole MPA a good rank and clear.

wefwq
Feb 23, 2016, 11:41 PM
Poor Pietro, he must be crying on the corner somewhere.


Exactly. Not to mention SUs in XH not properly fighting can cost the whole MPA a good rank and clear.
So does any other class.
SU are indeed shitty on certain EQs though the damage they done to MPA could be varied on how hard they fucked up, every class can do stupid shit too.
Now, if there's multiple or too much SU on the same MPA however...

Rakurai
Feb 23, 2016, 11:50 PM
I'm curious as to what's considered a "good" killing speed for someone who's soloing a Goldrahda or a similarly beefy enemy.

Goldrahda take 5-15 seconds to kill with my Wanda. Depends rather heavily on how much they decide to jump around the place, and whether or not I can get a face break quickly.

Selphea
Feb 23, 2016, 11:51 PM
Sounds like we've been here before (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221638).

Evangelion X.XX
Feb 23, 2016, 11:55 PM
Yesterday, I posted a similar inquiry in the "Quick Questions" thread (but wasn't answered).

I was wondering how well Summoners fare in XH TD3 and XH TD4, especially against packs of Goldies; is killing them a "chore" even with 10* or above pets with "decked-out" candy boxes?


Edit:

Grammar corrections.

Ordy
Feb 23, 2016, 11:58 PM
I don't mind SU in AQ/LQ, but I get hemorrhoids when I seen them in my TD/Magatsu/PD MPA.

People should level their pets, get the pancakes/parfaits and wait for SEGA to release some kind of damage buff or better pets.

And seriously, who cares if a pet can kill things in SH, at this point every non-optimal class combos can kill SH mobs and bosses.

wefwq
Feb 23, 2016, 11:59 PM
Sounds like we've been here before (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221638).
Episodic ritual, just like pottery.

Well, this kind of complaint always happened to green class without fail.
This will be fixed by OP stuff and inevitable happy ending.


Yesterday, I posted a similar inquiry in the "Quick Questions" thread (but wasn't answered).

I was wondering how well Summoners fare in XH TD3 and XH TD4, especially against packs of Goldies; is killing them a "chore" even with 10* or above pets with "decked-out" candy boxes?


Edit:

Grammar corrections.
Been using *13 torim loaded with good but not best candy, killing them felt very hard due to lack of AoE, constant movement and unfair PP consumption.
Though, destroying cores are kinda easy to do, so you can make them to not explode while killing those thing near the tower.
Overall i think SU are the worst class to use for TD EQs.

Evangelion X.XX
Feb 24, 2016, 12:06 AM
^Alright. Thx for info.

Rakurai
Feb 24, 2016, 12:14 AM
My typical routine for TD is to spam Sari Chaser at the Goldrahda mobs to round them up, then go to town on their faces using Wanda Break/Slicer/Shock once they bunch up around me.

They die from five hits of Break on their weak point using a maxed out 13* Wanda; less if Alter Ego and other buffs are active.

TaigaUC
Feb 24, 2016, 12:17 AM
Finally got some rest. Only had like an hour's sleep yesterday.

I haven't really noticed myself (especially on XH, Summoners seem rare) but I'd imagine the pressing issue would be that most people don't know how to keep pets alive as Summoner.
- Pets can't easily dodge. This is fatal in boss EQs. I think most people don't even bother dodging with their characters. The amount of people I see dying in EQs is staggering.
- To keep your pets alive, you have to switch to another weapon to hide them. I doubt many people do this. I have one female friend who does not even like to switch weapon palettes.
- There are probably tons of people who lose all their pets quickly, and literally cannot contribute for lengthy periods. At all. That seems like bad design to me. In other games, Pet class characters can still attack by themselves.
- Most people probably won't know you need to use Candy Box to pump pet defenses, or they go splat.
- I'd imagine most people won't bother replacing their Candy Box because of how you need to exchange a bunch of crap just to remove/replace/erase, etc.
- Did they seriously think most people would bother to remove Caramel Cubes? Why are they even in there, aside from making us waste Cubes? For sense of "progression"?
- I'm sure a lot of people don't realize how important the element pancakes are. I mean, I didn't.
- The way it's setup, you need to get good pancakes from the get-go, but the tutorial teaches people to slap a rank 1 in.
- You can't even take the tutorial pancake out after, you have to erase it. I'm sure that discourages people from getting 50 element from the start.

It's really a design issue.
They made Summoner look like a class for kids/beginners.
But as with how PSO2 is designed in general, there are too many pitfalls that result in very crappy Summoners.
I tried to get a few friends into Summoner (both JP and not, male and female), but they just couldn't be bothered learning how to use the Candy Box.
That's already a big fat epic fail, SEGA.


In regards to playing a Summoner effectively.... my personal experience:
I set up all of my Candy Boxes like Z-0's template, but with a little more defense and most of them without the fancy 11-13 star Candies.
Most of my pets are only rarity 9, some with 10. They are all at least level 75. Only one character has pets maxed in bonus stats, I've been mostly ignoring bonus stats.
One character has a 12 Wanda and 12 Torim, but honestly haven't noticed much difference in effectiveness, especially when compared with my other Summoners with lesser rarity.
I have 3 active Summoners right now. They all hit hard.
I literally do not take my Summoners anywhere until I'm done feeding their pets to at least 75. Because I don't enjoy being weak as nuts. It's not fun.

According to OverParse, I still easily bust out 10% of the multi's damage consistently, sometimes up to 20%. This is on both SH and XH.
During EQs like Sea Lab, Eluther, TD1/3 or the first 2016 badge limited quest, I'm usually in the top 5 damage, and fairly often in the top 2 or 3.
I also sometimes show up in the top 3 during TDs, just from killing stuff and defending towers.
In TD4, as Su/Br, I've repeatedly Guren Tessen dashed to packs like the Exoda x2 and Maluda, tagged Maluda and destroyed both Exoda cannons ALONE.
I don't think I achieve that as efficiently or easily with other classes.

Remember, this is with my sub-par incomplete low rarity no fancy Candies setup.
Only one character has a Torim with the +boss damage parfait, and that's only about +7% damage.
All I'm doing is keeping pets alive, using Assist to increase damage, and spamming crap like Torim Stab.
I don't use Sympathy consistently, because quite frankly it's a pain up the ass. I use the shared HP skill, but it often gets me killed.
My contributing damage percentage jumps if I land a successful Torim Spiral, but that's very situational.

I feel like Summoner is really strong. Clunky as hell, but strong.
But because of all the pitfalls and the clunkiness, I'm sure that a lot of people are underperforming.
Again, they don't really realize it, because there's no way for them to be sure unless they use a 3rd party tool.


In regards to people leaving... my personal thoughts:
There are too many reasons for people to leave. Here are some of the fundamental game design issues causing this that immediately come to mind:
- No Weak Bullet. Runs are super slow without it. This leads to the next problem:
- EQ time is too short. 30 minutes. It used to be 1 hour, which was more relaxed.
- Most people have a ton of characters. Everyone wants more loot, so they want to run multiple characters. Of course people are going to rush.
- Boost ticket timers. This causes so many problems: discourages people from playing outside of select EQs, causes people to rush, leech, etc.
- If a group doesn't perform well, you don't get good loots or EXP.
- Doesn't matter how well you play if other people suck. Depending on the EQ, a mere few people sucking can cause huge problems. I've seen 1-2 people causing XH Loser to take 10 minutes longer.
- Nobody knows if they are playing effectively or not. I mean, I felt like I was carrying multis most of the time, but I wasn't sure until I used OverParse.
- There is no penalty for leaving. But adding a penalty in itself creates issues (ie. punishing people who just got disconnected, etc).


Here's how I would solve the above game design issues, and these are fairly simple solutions, most of which are already in the game in some form or another:
- Make EQs like PSO2ES's. Instead of a 30 minute window for accepting quests, allow everyone to do EQs only a certain number of times, for up to an hour or two after an EQ's initial start. This greatly increases the chance that everyone can get maximum runs, at their leisure. They already have the basics of this system in place for some EQs like Magatsu, but they only did this in response to people killing Magatsu fast.
- Change boost tickets to only affect a certain amount of enemies/boss kills/loot gems, etc. No timer. This way, people won't have incentive to rush.
- Allow people to see their personal comparative effectiveness. That way, they will know if they were contributing significantly or not. Even better if the game can identify where they are lacking and tell them where they need to improve.
- Introduce a weak penalty for leaving, such as being unable to rejoin for a short amount of time. Perhaps increase the penalty for people with a long record of leaving repeatedly, because I don't think anybody should be leaving repeatedly.
- Simplify or clarify some of the games stats, skills, etc. I'm sure a lot of people still have no idea what they are doing, mostly thanks to the game being so vague, inconsistent and overcomplicated in some areas.
- Either give everyone a skill like Weak Bullet, or remove multiparty reliance on it. They really shouldn't be designing the game around people using Weak Bullet on bosses. It got a lot worse with how SH to XH is mostly just an increase in HP, which WB directly affects. The "weak WB" nerf in recent EQs is a step in the right direction, but it's still essentially the same issue.
- Amount of loot/EXP could be individual based instead of multi based. Then people wouldn't feel like their efforts are going to waste. I know I don't feel like playing anymore when I see everyone else sucking.
- The game needs to add more practical tutorials that show people how they should be playing, allowing them to experiment in a training scenario. As I said before, SH to XH Loser is very confusing because the strategy for defeating him changes completely. Also, most people don't know how to use AIS. Prior to TD3, the game doesn't introduce them to the AIS at all.


The big issue here is that SEGA is focusing on marketing the game to non-gamers. I don't want to say "casuals", but literally people who do not play games much. At all.
On top of this, the game design is needlessly convoluted, even for a seasoned gamer. I have a friend who is strong at Dark Souls and fighting games, but is confused by Phantasy Star Online 2.
There are tons of pitfalls everywhere to get people to spend money, too.
Couple the above problems with "new content is often a difficulty increase relying heavily on equipment strength, setup and player skill", and it's a recipe for disaster.

I'm thinking that until SEGA does something about all this stupidity and bad design, I should put a warning above my own head expressing that I'm a good Summoner player.



This isn't confirmed.

I think it is, I included it in my translations from the swiki a while back.
The JP friend I go to for info (they experiment with everything) also told me that from day one a friend complained to them about Bal Lodos's ball being unbreakable as a lone Summoner.
I also noticed that when fighting Ringarda, he gets up way sooner if you're a Summoner.


Though my point is, like you've mentioned, Pets have not been confirmed to have a negative impact on the enemy spawn limit just because they are classified as "enemies" by NPC's reactions or "NPC" by boss enemies' downtime.
Ohh. Sorry. Then I don't know about that.


Sounds like we've been here before (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221638).

Yes. I used to keep ending up in really bad EQs with literally around 10 Bouncers. That wasn't even when everyone was levelling Bouncer.
But I think Summoner is way worse. At least with affixes people can still buy good stuff from player shops. With Candy Boxes, it's actually more complex.
And Bouncers don't have issues like becoming completely useless because their weapon keeps dying.

wahahaha
Feb 24, 2016, 12:21 AM
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/bp76urj.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/bkHrI39.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YMOmbRH.jpg[/spoiler-box]

In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13* pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.

toragyo
Feb 24, 2016, 12:32 AM
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/bp76urj.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/bkHrI39.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YMOmbRH.jpg[/spoiler-box]

In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13* pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.

It's a shame that the SU who knows what he is doing let Green get destroyed :wacko: There is also the fact that you actually got to 5k points from crystals which no XH MPA should be doing. Most of my XH pub runs don't even get to 2k.

TD points don't mean shit because all you could be doing is stealing last hits. I noticed you also got 破壊王 which is just attacking the bosses. I have got that title by not being able to hit anything for all 5 waves and only hitting Vibrace.

The only way someone can prove SU is good for the MPA (namely TD) is by showing videos.

Saagonsa
Feb 24, 2016, 12:35 AM
I noticed you also got 破壊王 which is just attacking the bosses.

Isn't that title given to the person who did in total the most damage during the quest?

wefwq
Feb 24, 2016, 12:38 AM
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/bp76urj.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/bkHrI39.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YMOmbRH.jpg[/spoiler-box]

In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13* pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.
I still experimenting build around, so that might be the case too.
I'm using generalization while saying SU are the "worst" class to use for TD, since every class can do everything SU can do, but better.

Torim can deal fuckhuge amount of damage to boss, yes.
But at what cost? It's either big number or nothing (literal 0 damage).
Other class can deal as much damage by the time the bird finish it's charge, and they don't have to deal with the 0 damage bullshit too.
Torim will automatically halt it's slash PA whenever a target are killed (or any enemies that is not being locked-on but died), it's kinda annoying especially while attacking group of enemies inside zondeel.

toragyo
Feb 24, 2016, 12:38 AM
Isn't that title given to the person who did in total the most damage during the quest?

Yes. Most of the time it goes to whoever hits bosses the most if they have WB on them.

All the other times, a geared FO will have it.

wahahaha
Feb 24, 2016, 12:46 AM
I still experimenting build around, so that might be the case too.
I'm using generalization while saying SU are the "worst" class to use for TD, since every class can do everything SU can do, but better.

Torim can deal fuckhuge amount of damage to boss, yes.
But at what cost? It's either big number or nothing (literal 0 damage).
Other class can deal as much damage by the time the bird finish it's charge, and they don't have to deal with the 0 damage bullshit too.

Again, if you are relying on torim charged attack, you are doing it wrong, in those runs i was using the 5 hit combo pa and stab.
Still a new class, needs chunks of changes and i hope they can make the ratio for some eggs like torim more acceptable.

Xaelouse
Feb 24, 2016, 12:50 AM
SU is fine in TD, not so much in the big boss raids but wanda's tankiness and the ability to switch out your tact alleviates that a bit.
And that FO does what SU does but better and without the gimmick. SU still has all the right tools though.

wefwq
Feb 24, 2016, 12:51 AM
Again, if you are relying on torim charged attack, you are doing it wrong, in those runs i was using the 5 hit combo pa and stab.
Still a new class, needs chunks of changes and i hope they can make the ratio for some eggs like torim more acceptable.
I was actually rely on stab more than the charge, since it's way too situational.
The annoying part of Torim was it'll halt it's slash PA whenever one enemy died instead of continuing it's attack to kill the rest of the nearby enemy.

Zeroem
Feb 24, 2016, 12:53 AM
[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/bp76urj.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/bkHrI39.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YMOmbRH.jpg[/spoiler-box]

In other words, summoner is not bad as long you know what to do. As for the 13* pet guy, you surely are doing something wrong with torim.

Oh, that 2 big, long white bar ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


It's a shame that the SU who knows what he is doing let Green get destroyed :wacko: There is also the fact that you actually got to 5k points from crystals which no XH MPA should be doing. Most of my XH pub runs don't even get to 2k.

TD points don't mean shit because all you could be doing is stealing last hits. I noticed you also got 破壊王 which is just attacking the bosses. I have got that title by not being able to hit anything for all 5 waves and only hitting Vibrace.

The only way someone can prove SU is good for the MPA (namely TD) is by showing videos.

To be complete fair here, the pet showcased here are Torim, which excel at boss bashing.
And while it's true that point doesn't mean much these days, it's still an indicator of how 'bad' the run were. And when the top point are less than 3k, it's a good indicator that the almost all members of the MPA did their job well.....except on that one broken Green base case.

That aside, it's still true that the number of good SUs are overshadowed by the massive amount of bad SUs; so that when a good SU's joined an MPA, association game played out and everyone bailed based on assumption that SU=bad mpa player.

TaigaUC
Feb 24, 2016, 01:07 AM
Something else I tend to do with Summoner in TD:
I run up and Zondeel, jump to max height and then spam Torim Stab. Stuff dies quickly that way.
I doubt many Summoners are doing that. I don't even see Bouncers using Zondeel, let alone Forces.
When facing Goldradas, Summoner can stay safe by jumping to max height and spamming attacks to prevent falling.

Anyway, Torim is strong, yes. But there are situations where I will switch to Wanda or Sari.
Wanda is tanky, stun is good. Sari regen is great, especially if you need to get PP quickly for Torim Spiral or something.
I also feel safer spamming Sari Chaser against Damoth. I'm pretty sure Damoth will turn away from towers and aim for you if you tag them.

I know my previous post was long, as I tried to cover everything, but essentially:
Summoner is strong, but easy to screw up (both in setup, ingame, etc) and become useless. Game gives way too many incentives to leave.
SEGA not doing anything about the above, just making it worse.

Aine
Feb 24, 2016, 01:20 AM
Summoners perform relatively better the higher the enemy density is, so I'd say they're actually one of the stronger classes in TD. I can easily see SU replacing or becoming an alternative to FO for mobbing a few balance tweaks down the line. Bossing is horrible though.


TD points don't mean shit because all you could be doing is stealing last hits. I noticed you also got 破壊王 which is just attacking the bosses. I have got that title by not being able to hit anything for all 5 waves and only hitting Vibrace.

破壊王 means you dealt the most damage in the MPA which can be easily gotten by focusing only on bosses, but combined with 1st place it generally means you carried the MPA since you would have to deal most of that damage on mobs to get points as well.

TaigaUC
Feb 24, 2016, 01:30 AM
Combine high TD points with high ranking damage on 3rd party tools like OverParse and I'm pretty sure that's not just stealing last hits.
I think Summoner does fine against regular bosses, they just can't dodge EQ boss attacks easily.

So, again... it just boggles my mind that SEGA seems to have tried to make a class for beginners, that is also very easy to screw up. Moreso than any other class.

Kondibon
Feb 24, 2016, 01:40 AM
So, again... it just boggles my mind that SEGA seems to have tried to make a class for beginners, that is also very easy to screw up. Moreso than any other class.I'd argue that in the long term it's not as easy to screw up though. If it's got any problems for being a beginner class it's like you said, hard to dodge big attacks with. We need something like a "pet escape" skill that makes your pet get iframes when you use mirage escape or something. Though I guess that could be abused by just dodging back and forth while the pet auto attacks.

Enforcer MKV
Feb 24, 2016, 01:47 AM
So, again... it just boggles my mind that SEGA seems to have tried to make a class for beginners, that is also very easy to screw up. Moreso than any other class.

....Sega originally launched the game in a state where it was impossible to fix your mag or skill tree without paying real world currency.

Why does this surprise you? At all?

Kyras
Feb 24, 2016, 01:48 AM
Honestly, I think the main problem is that SU can't easily get a 12* or 13* pet. You do have Train triggers for Wanda but even then, he doesn't drop it often. I had a 9* Torim for a long time and even now, I've only ever gotten 1 11* Torim to drop and nothing higher.

Being able to inspect SU would be nice though.

Summoner definitely gets screwed when it comes to being able to access 11 star+ weapons. Every other class has gotten trade ins and catch up weapons but summoner is expected to grind ultimate mode for parfaits and pets to reach optimal damage. Unfortunately ultimate mode is dead and everyone is doing the limited quest so getting a full party is impossible. Waiting hours to fill up an mpa isn't fun especially when half the people will drop after the first run. :-?

Dammy
Feb 24, 2016, 01:55 AM
the real solution is to remove EQs from the game

that would be awesome
i dream about that since beta
EQ ruining this game , especially last 2 years

Kondibon
Feb 24, 2016, 01:57 AM
Every other class has gotten trade ins and catch up weapons but summoner is expected to grind ultimate mode for parfaits and pets to reach optimal damage.Yeah, this is something that bothered me as well. Where are our AQ, and XQ candies? What about Austere or invade? Also it kinda feels like there should be a candy for SEs too. I know they aren't important, but it would be nice to get some 1x1 SE candy or something.

wefwq
Feb 24, 2016, 01:58 AM
I'd argue that in the long term it's not as easy to screw up though. If it's got any problems for being a beginner class it's like you said, hard to dodge big attacks with. We need something like a "pet escape" skill that makes your pet get iframes when you use mirage escape or something. Though I guess that could be abused by just dodging back and forth while the pet auto attacks.
They could just make the skill active only when pet are idling and following you.

Kondibon
Feb 24, 2016, 01:59 AM
They could just make the skill active only when pet are idling and following you.That could work too, Especially since that's usually when I want it.

Hysteria1987
Feb 24, 2016, 02:02 AM
Yes. I used to keep ending up in really bad EQs with literally around 10 Bouncers.I've only left an MPA because of class combos once, and it was basically this. Bouncers and all too. Can't say I see people leaving because of particular class combos. I can't say I see people do a lot of gear checks too. To be honest, I only gear check if I'm interested enough in what someone else has going on.

The number one reason I see people leave MPAs? If they take too long to fill :P

I don't really like Summoners - I don't like the design elements, I don't like how the playstyle was implemented, I don't like how the sparkly pets make it harder to see on an already sparkly battlefield, I don't like how many of them there are all at once (it's better now than it was, and this is just new class syndrome, after all) and I don't like the eggs and candy that now fill the drop pool.

But I wouldn't leave your average PUG MPA because a couple people are playing them.

To be honest, I still don't like Bravers either :P Too many new-class-syndrome memories of them too.

Chris_Chocobo
Feb 24, 2016, 02:35 AM
First were the Gunners now the Summoners. Discrimination never ends

DRAGONxNOGARD
Feb 24, 2016, 04:41 AM
the real solution is to remove EQs from the game

you should be banned for that what you said

eq is thing what holding pso2 alive and having still something new and farming 10*-13* items if you vote to remove eq will mean that will remove too eq events and this mean rip pso2 and shut down

my think that way ended pso1

Sp-24
Feb 24, 2016, 04:44 AM
First were the Gunners now the Summoners. Discrimination never ends
#petlivesmatter

jooozek
Feb 24, 2016, 06:33 AM
you should be banned for that what you said

eq is thing what holding pso2 alive and having still something new and farming 10*-13* items if you vote to remove eq will mean that will remove too eq events and this mean rip pso2 and shut down

my think that way ended pso1

did i commit wrongthink? :wacko: mr. officer please do not hold me responsible :bday:

Sp-24
Feb 24, 2016, 06:39 AM
Maybe that's why your old account was banned, though.

jooozek
Feb 24, 2016, 06:40 AM
damn, you might be on to something :wacko:

Z-0
Feb 24, 2016, 06:41 AM
EQ is only holding the game alive because that's where they put all the fun quests / good items, lol. Not because of the EQ system itself.

Tunga
Feb 24, 2016, 08:32 AM
Everything is wrong with it considering people can't properly kill things right with Pets there, sure they draw aggro but you aren't helping if you can't kill them quick enough

I don't notice much of what SU does in TD. Playing Force makes every other class (except WB slaves) non-existant lol.

Saffran
Feb 24, 2016, 12:35 PM
I don't care too much. I generally check the subclass to distinguish between people leveling up SU and people relatively new to the game, but that's about it.
It IS annoying to get only 2 magatsu runs (if that many) though.

Dark Emerald EXE
Feb 24, 2016, 12:40 PM
People take things awfully too serious for a game. I saw this happened yesterday as well. I was in party with my Friend who is Su actually decked out.....13* variant...max leveled...max stat and has 13* candies.....went to teleporter..... people was waiting 12/12 few seconds later....5 people seem to went back to teleporter then full MPA dropped o.0

starwind75043
Feb 24, 2016, 01:35 PM
So far only problems in magetsu I have had as a su is erratic wb placement. But I have managed 3/4

I seen this happen once or twice most of the time its when more then 2 su show up. Best advice i would give is letting the transporter start and teleport then exit the campship if this happens to you a lot

So far

sparab
Feb 24, 2016, 01:56 PM
People take things awfully too serious for a game. I saw this happened yesterday as well. I was in party with my Friend who is Su actually decked out.....13* variant...max leveled...max stat and has 13* candies.....went to teleporter..... people was waiting 12/12 few seconds later....5 people seem to went back to teleporter then full MPA dropped o.0

To some people, as long as pet status remains hidden all Su are seen as leech while garbage geared 70/23 HuBr are tolerated

Gourd
Feb 24, 2016, 02:00 PM
I didn't notice this but the tryhards leaving are the actual problem. Not the summoners who didn't no life the game to get forty 13 stars the evening the damn class was launched.
I don't get why they act like any of the raids are even difficult at max level with decent units and weapons. Maybe these idiots should get some friends and make their ideal team that way they don't ruin it for everyone else by leaving (not that they care). And honestly, I wouldn't blame them for doing it. You really SHOULD if you don't want to chance that risk of losing.

KazeSenoue
Feb 24, 2016, 04:31 PM
unless people are also leaving parties because of Hunter mains and JB Bouncers. :wacko:

I'm triggered

Poyonche
Feb 24, 2016, 05:58 PM
Compared to other classes/weapons Jet boots are apparently weak. :wacko:

Strobo_Lemon
Feb 24, 2016, 06:23 PM
the real solution is to remove EQs from the game

Add PVP in the lobby so people have something to do outside of EQs.

Tunga
Feb 24, 2016, 06:34 PM
I didn't notice this but the tryhards leaving are the actual problem. Not the summoners who didn't no life the game to get forty 13 stars the evening the damn class was launched.

[SPOILER-BOX]http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/723/268/739.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

SilkaN
Feb 24, 2016, 06:51 PM
It seems there's increasing concern over people leaving EQs if they catch even the slightest glimpse of a Summoner.
The problem isn't limited to ship 2 or foreign players.
Some people want to be able to check other player's pet level or candy setup, to see if they're up to scratch before they run for the hills.


Isn't this kind of behavior normal for PSOW citizens?
I dunno bro :-?:-?:-?

Kondibon
Feb 24, 2016, 07:02 PM
Add PVP in the lobby so people have something to do outside of EQs.The issue isn't people needing something to do while EQs are down. It's that EQs are only up for a limited time frame and some people want to get the most out of them that they can. Because EQs are only up for 30 minutes a time though, it's hard to get an organized group together, so you're kinda forced to at least partly pug it, which leads to tension between players. Even if you have a dedicated group you play with, having them all online, not busy, and during an EQ isn't practical.

Strobo_Lemon
Feb 24, 2016, 07:17 PM
Maybe they should add Casual/Hardcore blocks then to separate those people? Won't solve the problem completely but it'll probably lessen the leechers

Great Pan
Feb 24, 2016, 07:19 PM
In other words, Hunter master race!

Sp-24
Feb 24, 2016, 07:34 PM
Maybe they should add Casual/Hardcore blocks then to separate those people? Won't solve the problem completely but it'll probably lessen the leechers
This kind of separation didn't stop leechers from joining the hardcore blocks on the shared ship, while the casual blocks have always been dead.

Zorua
Feb 24, 2016, 07:38 PM
Maybe they should add Casual/Hardcore blocks then to separate those people? Won't solve the problem completely but it'll probably lessen the leechers

The leechers would just go to the hardcore blocks because they know that's where all the good carries are

NoobSpectre
Feb 24, 2016, 07:57 PM
Not so relevant, but there is always a paradox in this EQ logic, whenever exp/drop is in concern.

People are encouraged to do EQ such as mbd/td and arms and such that to gain exp. Okay, maybe arms is an exception, but EQ like td & magatsu, if you trying to level in td, especially you're new, it would probably be something like 50/30+ (SH) or 70+/45+ (XH) or something....

Tadaa~leecher detected. (btw, I did heard advices for newbie is always:"Join higher level difficulty as soon as you hit the treshold or lv55 for SH", well...)

Gear-wise? you need to go to harder difficulty to drop higher tier weapon, and before that you have to stuck with a cube weapon/red weapon pot 1 but ex low due to lower stat for requirement...

Tadaa~ another leecher detected.

So the final best solution is go to vhaq, grab 3 support partner, then do the long and tedious grind all, by, yourself and finally capped that shiet and can get red weapon to higher craft lvl, and then pray if anything good dropped in the process...

Final best solution does have a sad tone in it though.

Disclaimer: This is not intended for trolls who lobby dance, sole intention to leech with zambas/vraolet/nyoibo/cane, EQ afkers, and corner sitters.

Iduno
Feb 25, 2016, 04:41 AM
Yeah, basically the idea is "don't do anything that makes the game fun until you stand to gain nothing useful from it in game" your DPS is 0.25% below the party average just uninstall the game now noob.

I haven't a clue what weapons and armour are appropriate for what I'm running in the eyes of these nerds nor do I care, I've got the best stuff I've got equipped, I'm killing mobs at a decent rate, dieing no more than anyone else in the mpa and carrying a full stock of moons to res with, anyone who's got a problem with this can go forth and recreate.

Hysteria1987
Feb 25, 2016, 04:49 AM
I'm trying to cap hunter at the moment; they'd hate me :-P

I... might have refused to re-gear my FO properly (or at all), so I'm a ghetto HU with a Talis. Hey, got me to lv66 so far. I won't pretend it doesn't suck horribly though, lol.

Kondibon
Feb 25, 2016, 03:25 PM
"don't do anything that makes the game fun until you stand to gain nothing useful from it in game"You seem like a jerk, but this made me laugh.

Stormwalker
Feb 25, 2016, 04:31 PM
As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has a problem with me showing up with my 11*'s in an EQ can...

...have a nice day.

But they need to reset their expectations a bit. Not everybody has all the best stuff.

Xaeris
Feb 25, 2016, 04:44 PM
It's not helpful to the conversation to take hypotheticals to ridiculous extremes. Quite literally no one would raise a fuss over someone showing up to an EQ with grinded 11*s unless they were holiday weapons. If you ever do find this person, please, take a screenshot (black out the names) and post it here so we can all viciously mock that person.

NightfallG
Feb 25, 2016, 07:28 PM
I go for the optimal and even I find this leaving shit sad and kinda hilarious. Yeah man, you really got them, wasting the time to PUG up all over again crossing your fingers that it doesn't have the class you hate. There's a big difference between "this is an actual leech so I will leave" and "waaaah this looks like pokemon kill yourself nooblord".

Like shit, if you're gonna take e-sports mentality into PVE games go push grifts in D3.

Limbo_lag
Feb 25, 2016, 10:33 PM
It's not helpful to the conversation to take hypotheticals to ridiculous extremes. Quite literally no one would raise a fuss over someone showing up to an EQ with grinded 11*s unless they were holiday weapons. If you ever do find this person, please, take a screenshot (black out the names) and post it here so we can all viciously mock that person.

Yep. 11*s (heck even some 10*s, tho preferably crafted) are fine so long as theyre max grinded/decently affixed (+70 attack at the very least for me. Though others might have differing opinions).

What is annoying is when stuff isnt max grinded, but you see the player using some expensive cosmetic, especially when grinding is pretty easy to do now. Still see some ppl with armor sets which aren't +10ed....

TaigaUC
Feb 25, 2016, 10:45 PM
Can't really judge based on just rarity. The game is vague all over the place..
I keep hearing that some 12 stars are better than or equal to 13 stars.
And of course the Yozakura 13 stars aren't great in general.
There are also various rarity weapons with latents that can result in massive damage depending on the situation.

Sp-24
Feb 26, 2016, 05:54 AM
Very few 12☆ can compare to 13☆, and it usually isn't something you come across easily. I only know two weapons that outdo Austere, and their powers are not very easy to use. Like those Wired Lances that leave Austere biting the dust if you manage to make a combo of 10 JA hits.

A lot of stuff compares to, or even outdamages something like Ideal used against non-boss enemies, though. Some even outdo a fully charged Ares, but that's really rare. Still, leaving when someone with a properly crafted red weapon shows would have been a great way of saying "I'm a huge asshole!" if there was an easy way to tell when someone bails.

TaigaUC
Feb 26, 2016, 08:04 AM
They really need to discourage people from leaving. Too many reasons to, not enough to not do it.
You just know they're going to screw up whatever penalty system they add, though.
And it'll be messed up if 8 assholes leave and you've no choice but to leave and be penalized too.

GHNeko
Feb 26, 2016, 08:24 AM
The funny thing about leaving, is that if you leave the MPA, the ones that take longer to leave are more than likely to get matched up with the people they were leaving lol.

It just feels like you're being a jerk at that point.

elryan
Feb 26, 2016, 08:40 AM
And of course the Yozakura 13 stars aren't great in general.

Yozakura can score you top #1-4 damage in a random MPA in an always-full-unless-you-have-premium block.

Disclaimer: I own 3 completed Yozakuras (Katana / Sword / Dual Blades),

TaigaUC
Feb 26, 2016, 10:43 AM
Yeah, but I meant in comparison to some 10-12 stars.
They're 13 star, so people think "oh, I will be super strong just by having them".
But it's not like that in reality.

You can probably score #1-4 damage in random MPA with all kinds of gear, as long as you play well.
Case in point, I topped damage meters at #1 on SH TD2 today as a relatively low level Summoner, on every run.
On the third run, I realized I'd forgotten to activate Average Stance because I forgot to update my subpalette.

Earlier, I topped damage meters at #1 on XH PD as Summoner, because 2/3rds of the multi were apparently very weak.
I usually have trouble topping damage meter on PD as Summoner. It's usually a Fighter or a Force with Il Barta.
There were some people spamming GiMegid and NaMegid for a whopping 4-5% of the multi's total damage.
I can't even begin to imagine using NaMegid on PD, I'd probably get interrupted constantly.

sparab
Feb 26, 2016, 10:53 AM
Su is the best mobbing class before XH. They seem to have good burst but no dps potential as most other classes.
Don't know if 13* torim helps but that drop rate is like 1/8 of a 13* weapon

Tunga
Feb 26, 2016, 10:55 AM
Su is the best mobbing class before XH.

You mean Force is the best mobbing class in any difficulty.

TaigaUC
Feb 26, 2016, 10:58 AM
I got that roll that gives -10% Torim PA cost reduction during Alter Ego.
Feels like it makes the higher PP cost personality Torim easier to handle.
It's from the level 80 Wanda title (I think). Or 250 stones of some annoying UQ.

I usually mob fine with Summoner, but sometimes the pet will get hit and I'll die if Alter Ego is running.
By the way, the infinite Alter Ego bug still isn't fixed.
If you "disable" Alter Ego when the timer is at around 1 second, it'll refresh and reactivate instead.

sparab
Feb 26, 2016, 11:02 AM
You mean Force is the best mobbing class in any difficulty.

Zondeel torim stab melts trash faster than Fo until they get combination tech and mobs get more beefy



I got that roll that gives -10% Torim PA cost reduction during Alter Ego.
Feels like it makes the higher PP cost personality Torim easier to handle.
It's from the level 80 Wanda title (I think). Or 250 stones of some annoying UQ.

IMO torim's major problem is the slow regular attack, which misses a lot on moving targets and has pathetic PP regain unless multi hit with zondeel.
Switch to sally refills PP much faster but at the cost of torim's buff...why not just let pets share buff if the developers planned Su as a class that should "switch pets according to situation"

GHNeko
Feb 27, 2016, 03:12 AM
Because pets have intentional design flaws and they probably dont want you to circumvent them and rather; you're supposed to use the most appropriatae pet in your arsenal for the situation. They're also probably taking into account unreleased pets in their evil grand scheme.

Many times in the past PSO2 gets updates that makes previous updates "whole" and a lot more sensible.

wefwq
Feb 27, 2016, 03:49 AM
IMO torim's major problem is the slow regular attack, which misses a lot on moving targets and has pathetic PP regain unless multi hit with zondeel.
Switch to sally refills PP much faster but at the cost of torim's buff...why not just let pets share buff if the developers planned Su as a class that should "switch pets according to situation"
I also find that pet may stuck on the wall/floor by using certain PAs to be troublesome, especially on the map with rough terrain such as quarry or ruins.

LordKaiser
Feb 27, 2016, 04:12 AM
I had never encountered this situation unless I was oblivious of it the whole time.

Raujinn
Feb 27, 2016, 08:23 AM
Now I have a 12* dog I'm beginning to feel like my Summoner might be a better mobber than my force tbh. Would be more fair to compare a 13* dog to say an Ares Rod rather than Bert Rodan, but then again my Dog currently has no parfaits and just the alter ego roll...

Keilyn
Feb 27, 2016, 08:27 AM
When I started doing Mining Defense II on VH and SH with my Summoner, I actually scored very well and had top score in three of the rounds including the last one. This was when I was level 50 with no subclass or giving any candy to my pet.

Then after gaining a subclass, its amazing how I can keep attacking enemies while gathering crystals simultaneously. I have never been left behind from playing summoner, which makes me wonder if that is an XH thing, though it makes me laugh a bit...

Though I've realized that summoner is the easiest class to arm and level in the game. It feels all one needs is a Light Element Trim and one can just annihilate just about anything. This is the perfect class for those who want a pet to play the game for them and are on handhelds, and I think its the least P2W class out there....

The grinding is a lot easier on the pet than trying to get a bunch of weapons at 50 - 60% and to +40 and their damage is pretty insane for the little one has to do by comparison. Like I mentioned before, there is not much "control" when playing summoner which is about the pet.

I know people who scratch every week in order to sell their scratch items for money in order to get enough money to be able to actually grind their weapons. Not so with a summoner. You don't need a full set of 50% - 60% to do well as one. A full set feels more like a luxury, for those who love the class and want the most from it.

Achelousaurus
Feb 27, 2016, 10:23 AM
What makes SUMMONER overpowered is that from Level 1, a player can have a 13* pet from the start...this throws any kind of thinking out of the room and while a player mirage steps out the way, he or she can simply right click and kill everything in the area.
No one cares about pre-XH. Class power levels are only in endgame.


- EQ time is too short. 30 minutes. It used to be 1 hour, which was more relaxed.
As mentioned before, EQs are the cancer that's killing then game...well one of the myriad of tumors.
The design is bs and everything should be always available. Just add cd for quests like the new xq, item requirements and turn down rewards to a reasonable level.
LQs got lots of rewards and are always available while active.


- Introduce a weak penalty for leaving, such as being unable to rejoin for a short amount of time. Perhaps increase the penalty for people with a long record of leaving repeatedly, because I don't think anybody should be leaving repeatedly.
Nah, that would be horrid. Don't forget B1. Not just stupid snobs leave when you got B1 all around you.
It's really bad when you can tell the TD will fail before you even start, I really shouldn't be punished for B1 being retarded.
But as I mentioned, the quest should be adjusted for player count so you can do well even with 4 people.
Like less spawns in TD, lower hp for Falz, etc.
So you don't need to rely on randoms nearly as much.


- Simplify or clarify some of the games stats, skills, etc. I'm sure a lot of people still have no idea what they are doing, mostly thanks to the game being so vague, inconsistent and overcomplicated in some areas.
Bad idea. People will only care about the summary stats and don't get that this isn't everything.
I had an op as fuck build in Diablo 3 (console) but no one ever cared cause my stats were low. Nonetheless I relied little on gear and kicked ass at far lower stats than everyone else thought was possible.


Either give everyone a skill like Weak Bullet, or remove multiparty reliance on it. They really shouldn't be designing the game around people using Weak Bullet on bosses. It got a lot worse with how SH to XH is mostly just an increase in HP, which WB directly affects. The "weak WB" nerf in recent EQs is a step in the right direction, but it's still essentially the same issue.
Everyone having WB would be chaos and ruin a lot of eqs. The 20% WB is perfectly fine though. Not big enough to require a ra, but a neat addition. Makes Te shine more with a constant 10% (+ base shifta) dmg boost for everyone at all times.


- Amount of loot/EXP could be individual based instead of multi based. Then people wouldn't feel like their efforts are going to waste. I know I don't feel like playing anymore when I see everyone else sucking.
Can't carry anymore this way.
I'm usually the one carrying but this is just pointless. Couldn't level a friend and get him some resources this way. Not to mention steal killing is BIG in this game with its broken as hell aggro. I really shouldn't get punished cause even a half dead mob runs away from me to lust after a loli on the other side of the map.


On top of this, the game design is needlessly convoluted, even for a seasoned gamer. I have a friend who is strong at Dark Souls and fighting games, but is confused by Phantasy Star Online 2.
There are tons of pitfalls everywhere to get people to spend money, too.
That's just cause Sega suck at game design ._.
I mean, they got a few amazing ideas like e-codes and some other things, but they made a huge amount of mistakes.


I'm thinking that until SEGA does something about all this stupidity and bad design, I should put a warning above my own head expressing that I'm a good Summoner player.
It will make you look like a noob though and probably gonna have the opposite effect.


Summoner definitely gets screwed when it comes to being able to access 11 star+ weapons. Every other class has gotten trade ins and catch up weapons but summoner is expected to grind ultimate mode for parfaits and pets to reach optimal damage. Unfortunately ultimate mode is dead and everyone is doing the limited quest so getting a full party is impossible. Waiting hours to fill up an mpa isn't fun especially when half the people will drop after the first run. :-?
10*
Cause you can't sell 10*-12* eggs.


EQ is only holding the game alive because that's where they put all the fun quests / good items, lol. Not because of the EQ system itself.
Amen!


I don't notice much of what SU does in TD. Playing Force makes every other class (except WB slaves) non-existant lol.
I don't pay much attention to what people actually do. I only pay attention to results.
Like, if I see 2 bosses in TD that need killing and start working on one, then several other people join me I move to get to the unattended 2nd boss and expect that the 1st will be taken care off when there are enough people to quickly kill it. I just get sour when people fail and let the boss wreck the tower anyway. Repeatedly >_>


So far only problems in magetsu I have had as a su is erratic wb placement.
That's the ra's fault though.


Not so relevant, but there is always a paradox in this EQ logic, whenever exp/drop is in concern.

People are encouraged to do EQ such as mbd/td and arms and such that to gain exp. Okay, maybe arms is an exception, but EQ like td & magatsu, if you trying to level in td, especially you're new, it would probably be something like 50/30+ (SH) or 70+/45+ (XH) or something....

Tadaa~leecher detected. (btw, I did heard advices for newbie is always:"Join higher level difficulty as soon as you hit the treshold or lv55 for SH", well...)

Gear-wise? you need to go to harder difficulty to drop higher tier weapon, and before that you have to stuck with a cube weapon/red weapon pot 1 but ex low due to lower stat for requirement...

Tadaa~ another leecher detected.

So the final best solution is go to vhaq, grab 3 support partner, then do the long and tedious grind all, by, yourself and finally capped that shiet and can get red weapon to higher craft lvl, and then pray if anything good dropped in the process...

Final best solution does have a sad tone in it though.

Disclaimer: This is not intended for trolls who lobby dance, sole intention to leech with zambas/vraolet/nyoibo/cane, EQ afkers, and corner sitters.
Nah, it really doesn't work this way.
You can lvl super fast with AQs and can get most endgame gear outside of the few challenging EQs, not to mention you can get good stuff in lower difficulties and it's literally the exact same thing in every difficulty so you are not actually missing out by not doing endgame in the highest difficulty before you are ready.


Because pets have intentional design flaws and they probably dont want you to circumvent them and rather; you're supposed to use the most appropriatae pet in your arsenal for the situation. They're also probably taking into account unreleased pets in their evil grand scheme.

Many times in the past PSO2 gets updates that makes previous updates "whole" and a lot more sensible.
Yeah, exactly what I've been saying. MMO 101, make stuff not be as good as it can be so later updates get people hyped and easily extend playing time.

PS:showstopper post XD

TaigaUC
Feb 27, 2016, 05:00 PM
Nah, that would be horrid. Don't forget B1. Not just stupid snobs leave when you got B1 all around you.
It's really bad when you can tell the TD will fail before you even start, I really shouldn't be punished for B1 being retarded.

Yes, well like I said elsewhere, it needs to be done in a way that doesn't penalize people for leaving a dying multi.
For example, calculate the amount of people present when the teleporter starts.
The penalty should then be reduced significantly depending on how many have left.
It's not hard to do that. Especially since all of the important multis rely on starting teleporters now.


Bad idea. People will only care about the summary stats and don't get that this isn't everything.
I had an op as fuck build in Diablo 3 (console) but no one ever cared cause my stats were low. Nonetheless I relied little on gear and kicked ass at far lower stats than everyone else thought was possible.

Not sure what you mean by "summary" but people already focus on the stats.
That's why we have a ton of people focusing on +ATK instead of +damage multipliers.
What I meant was that the game needs to tell people what's actually good.
Instead of having layers and layers of vague systems and stats that make people think they're getting stronger, when they're actually getting weaker.
But, like I said, if they told players what was good, they wouldn't screw up and need to buy AC.

There's a reason why WoW simplified a lot of their complex crap.
I'm sure it was because the amount of variations got out of hand to the point that people didn't know what options were worth using and when.
PSO2 is suffering from that right now, but SEGA is either completely oblivious or has it this way intentionally.
Also note that WoW is a subscription game, though. Or at least, last I heard, it was.


Everyone having WB would be chaos and ruin a lot of eqs. The 20% WB is perfectly fine though. Not big enough to require a ra, but a neat addition. Makes Te shine more with a constant 10% (+ base shifta) dmg boost for everyone at all times.

I think you're assuming chaos because you'd assume people would just overwrite each other.
When I make these suggestions, I don't mean "leave everything else as it is now". Obviously, some adjustments need to be made.
I'm talking about redoing the system entirely in a fashion that won't result in chaos.

Right now, relying on a random party member to place WB correctly and hoping nobody else overwrites is very chaotic.
A simple solution would be to simply give everyone an individual WB that only affects their own attack.
That way, their own actions would reflect upon themselves without interfering and punishing other players.


Can't carry anymore this way.
I'm usually the one carrying but this is just pointless. Couldn't level a friend and get him some resources this way. Not to mention steal killing is BIG in this game with its broken as hell aggro. I really shouldn't get punished cause even a half dead mob runs away from me to lust after a loli on the other side of the map.

I'm also carrying most multis. OverParse is proving that to me.
You know, I really didn't expect to be #1 in almost nearly every random multi. My gear is still far from maxed out.

Right now, even if you do your best, and even if your friend is slacking or not, if the multi sucks, you get penalized.
You can still get loot with low rank. The only Orbit stuff I've gotten from TD4 was when the rank was very, very low.

Individual-based loot would essentially mean that people who are doing all the work get rewarded more, more consistently.
I'm also talking about this in the context that the other fixes I suggested would also be implemented.
If the game was made easier for people to perform better, then a friend getting decent resources from their own performance wouldn't be a problem.
I'm certain that would be a lot more consistent than relying on multis to randomly not suck.

Not sure what to do about steal killing. That would definitely be a problem.


That's just cause Sega suck at game design ._.
I mean, they got a few amazing ideas like e-codes and some other things, but they made a huge amount of mistakes.

Yes. Which basically emphasizes my points.


It will make you look like a noob though and probably gonna have the opposite effect.

I haven't had to do that yet because I haven't seen people leaving just because I'm a Summoner.
It happened a few times before, but seems to have died down?
I've been topping meters even more than before, too.
It could also be that some people recognize me topping TDs.
I've been seeing a lot of the same people lately.

Achelousaurus
Feb 28, 2016, 08:30 AM
That was just a warning lol. You know how pugs are.

My point is that instead of hard and fast rules as game mechanics that could improve the game but could also cause lots of new problems, it's more important to change the way people are playing the game and as a result the current issues will be far less of a problem.

With summary stats I mean stuff like Diablo 3's dps stat. It's a summary of your atk stat, weapon damage, all damage mods from passive, critical rate and bonus critical damage. People would (probably still do) focus on boosting this for the highest possible value, while ignoring mechanics even more than usual.

Though I guess you're right with the individualized loot thing. Leechers may notice they get less rewards and might even try to do something about it.

ShinMaruku
Feb 28, 2016, 07:21 PM
This seems to be pointing for a good time for Sega to pull out and make PSO3. Because it would be better for them to make a new system than work around a older one. Sometimes the amount of work will be the same.

GHNeko
Feb 28, 2016, 08:34 PM
PSO2 is getting too much money. Who cares about legit gameplay kek.

Achelousaurus
Feb 29, 2016, 09:21 AM
lol
I almost feel like Sega should man up and ruin the entire game, not just large parts of it.
So I and most others would finally stop caring for real and not stay in this limbo of "I used to love the game and still like it but I rage at all the bs changes all the time".
Then everyone would leave and Sega would be forced to make PSO3 (2.5).

...not really. But I'd take 1-2 years of halfassed private servers and then starting fresh in a much better game over continuing like this (ofc there is no guarantee it would be better, etc., etc., etc.).

FANSean
Feb 29, 2016, 09:46 AM
Okay so I've definitely been getting wary of the game and even my abnormal levels of optimism is nearing its limit but it's a little silly to suggest that it's time to make PSO3/PSU2/PSMultiverse or whatever the hell. If PSO2 suddenly tanks it's probably going to impact their ability to even consider a future installment.

Also I'm sorry but the idea of a private server is laughable. I cannot fathom who would bother running one right now.

Zorak000
Feb 29, 2016, 12:51 PM
I mean I would hope the next game actually ditches the core PSU engine this game has been ductape and papercliped up from; this isnt the source engine, and well source has been showing some age for a while now too

I think they did intend to support pso2 with updates for at least 10 years though :v

anyway all we would need is for the ability to inspect other player's pets/candy boxes to put the worrywarts at ease; summoner itself is solid among classes.

NightfallG
Feb 29, 2016, 01:57 PM
It is kind of a testament to how well the PSU engine holds up, though, even if it's starting to really, really show its age.

FANSean
Feb 29, 2016, 02:49 PM
PSO3 would just be built off of PSO2 anyways just with improvements to the engine. That seems to be Sega's MO since forever. (And it's probably pretty common in game development overall)

Petunia
Feb 29, 2016, 03:09 PM
The main issue is that you can't check the setup of the Pet, and a lot of runs can fail because of a poor setup. Some smaller things are okay, like Saiki's that aren't afixed properly yet or a weapon that's like +24, but at least we can SEE those and know "okay, this guy has a good reason for not being OP af".
With SUs, you can't tell if they have "get by" candy or "I have no idea what I'm doing" candy. You don't know what you're in for, and if you see multiple SUs with no way to tell if they even know what they're doing you know you're gonna fail.
You also can't tell what rarity or level those pets are, so you don't even know if they're gonna get by on being 13* or if they're using a 7* Lv10 pet with "I have no idea what I'm doing" candy.

And with the sheer number of fails due to SUs like that, a stigma formed against them.
This reaction to SUs wouldn't come out of nowhere, people wouldn't leave for no reason. It takes several bad experiences to make people leave.

ShinMaruku
Feb 29, 2016, 03:13 PM
PSO2 is getting too much money. Who cares about legit gameplay kek.

They had a slow down and it will slow down at a certain point. It will change. The question is do you have faith in these bell ends to actualll go deep and blow up the systems and toss out that fuckery known as skill trees.

schnee4
Feb 29, 2016, 04:37 PM
They had a slow down and it will slow down at a certain point. It will change. The question is do you have faith in these bell ends to actualll go deep and blow up the systems and toss out that fuckery known as skill trees.

hmm.. can made 5000 post but not 500 yen? :-?

maybe spend less time of useless posting?

Sp-24
Feb 29, 2016, 05:04 PM
Skills are a bit of an issue, though. Skill trees are mostly filled with damage modifiers and main-class skills in a game where combining classes is a feature, they are sometimes not obviously good or bad until you read an in-depth analysis, bad skills even existing is a problem of its own, and, of course, Sega expects to make money from you resetting them. Let's say they are a little bit different from GAS in that regard.

Doubt it's the biggest problem with the game, though. And one has to realize that even if they make them tolerable, they'll just move the money-making feature elsewhere.

TaigaUC
Feb 29, 2016, 09:07 PM
Not seeing many Summoners on XH. I'm getting the impression that most people quit Summoner as soon as they hit 75.
I guess people just want the class bonus.

untrustful
Mar 1, 2016, 01:46 AM
Not only the class bonus, but the sp as well. I maxed summoner and got 12 su cubes extra. Moved on to fighter.

NightfallG
Mar 1, 2016, 01:55 AM
Incidentally, what is SU's class cap bonus?

wefwq
Mar 1, 2016, 01:57 AM
Incidentally, what is SU's class cap bonus?
HP+10, ALL DEF+40.

Rakurai
Mar 6, 2016, 03:40 AM
Well, I just had my first experience with a bunch of idiots dropping group for whatever reason, which screwed me out of a second run of today's scheduled Demise.

Don't know if it was because I was using Summoner, but I'd think a lot of people would know that I don't suck at using the class considering that I almost never place out of the top three and participate regularly.

The thing that pisses me off the most is that they always wait until after the quest starts to do it...

ArcaneTechs
Mar 6, 2016, 03:44 AM
Well, I just had my first experience with a bunch of idiots dropping group for whatever reason, which screwed me out of a second run of today's scheduled Demise.

Don't know if it was because I was using Summoner, but I'd think a lot of people would know that I don't suck at using the class considering that I almost never place out of the top three and participate regularly.

The thing that pisses me off the most is that they always wait until after the quest starts to do it...
It's really easy to play in TD whether your good or not but well blame Sega for this I suppose, I really haven't seen this happen to me yet but I generally don't play SU anymore in TD's since well, useless basically

sparab
Mar 6, 2016, 04:04 AM
Prepare to witness more Su havoc when these new pets come out

Malon uses self destruct, it is super effective on players!

Rakurai
Mar 6, 2016, 04:04 AM
I feel like I contribute more as SU then FO, honestly (Though that might be because I don't have a decent fire weapon to use still). Everything tends to just die before I can even get close enough to hit it or finish charging a tech, whereas pets can close the distance almost instantly and attack instantly, as well.

Torim Spiral takes off over half of an AIS Exoda's HP in one go, Sari Chaser can deal with the Damos swarms easily, and Wanda is good at killing everything else in general. The Goldrahda swarms melt pretty quickly when I'm hitting them for 40K damage every half a second or so using Wanda Break.

SteveCZ
Mar 6, 2016, 05:11 AM
I don't know why this thread is still going on, but to put all the blame on Su just because this thread exists for us to put blame for are just nonsense.
For me, Fighter is far worse to exist in TD than Su, to name one. Why not people just leave when they see tons of Fighter on their character list? Cause of a single Su in it?

I myself am not a fan of Summoner, but I see how it being in fact more useful than some of other classes in TD. A single well-made 10* Torim's NORMAL attack can kill those bomb bugs while the user is literally dancing around the tower or while gathering crystals.

I'd rather see Summoners next to Forces and Rangers rather than any other class around in TD. but not boss-only EQs.

Kondibon
Mar 6, 2016, 05:50 AM
I don't know why this thread is still going on, but to put all the blame on Su just because this thread exists for us to put blame for are just nonsense.
For me, Fighter is far worse to exist in TD than Su, to name one. Why not people just leave when they see tons of Fighter on their character list? Cause of a single Su in it?

I myself am not a fan of Summoner, but I see how it being in fact more useful than some of other classes in TD. A single well-made 10* Torim's NORMAL attack can kill those bomb bugs while the user is literally dancing around the tower or while gathering crystals.

I'd rather see Summoners next to Forces and Rangers rather than any other class around in TD. but not boss-only EQs.It was established pretty early on in the conversation that people leaving wasn't THAT common, and the people who were leaving, likely did so more because they couldn't check the summoner's pets, like they can with gear, than because Su is outright bad enough to ruin a run. It's silly of course, but a different argument.

TaigaUC
Mar 7, 2016, 10:31 AM
Uh, the purpose of this thread wasn't to give people a reason to blame Summoners.
It was to let people know that there is an ongoing problem with assholes leaving, and to discuss it.
Lately the server seems to be very unstable. I keep getting 630'd at least twice a day, usually during EQs.
That could easily be another reason for people "leaving".

I've been hesitant to use other classes for TD because I feel like I get the most out of Summoner.
Mainly because I use Braver sub, so I get Guren Tessen, support Techs, Torim Stab ripping through almost everything, Wanda's stun, and boss killer Torim Spiral.
On boss EQs, I'm usually contributing at least 10%. More if I can get Spiral to hit properly.

I am scared to use Summoner on Magatsu, though. Seems like a huge pain.
I've been watching damage meters on XH Magatsu, and the top damage tends to be Gunner with Chain Trigger, Fighter with Knuckles or Ranger with End Attract.
They usually have Ares, Austere or Ideal, all with tons of affixes. There was one strong guy with that 12 star Blitz Fender twin gun.
Had one terrible run yesterday with half the multi being Summoners, and they couldn't break the knees at the start.
A ton of people were on turrets too, so that was a big warning sign.
I feel like a multi's damage must be lacking if I'm WB main and still doing top damage.

Fighter isn't super terribad for TD, if it's played well.
I did a run a while back with a strong JP friend who was Fighter, and they constantly topped damage meters by taking out tons of Exodas.
I recall that my first TD4 was with Fighter and wasn't too bad, either.

Keilyn
Mar 7, 2016, 10:58 AM
Uh, the purpose of this thread wasn't to give people a reason to blame Summoners.
It was to let people know that there is an ongoing problem with assholes leaving, and to discuss it.
Lately the server seems to be very unstable. I keep getting 630'd at least twice a day, usually during EQs.
That could easily be another reason for people "leaving".

I've been hesitant to use other classes for TD because I feel like I get the most out of Summoner.
Mainly because I use Braver sub, so I get Guren Tessen, support Techs, Torim Stab ripping through almost everything, Wanda's stun, and boss killer Torim Spiral.
On boss EQs, I'm usually contributing at least 10%. More if I can get Spiral to hit properly.

I am scared to use Summoner on Magatsu, though. Seems like a huge pain.
I've been watching damage meters on XH Magatsu, and the top damage tends to be Gunner with Chain Trigger, Fighter with Knuckles or Ranger with End Attract.
They usually have Ares, Austere or Ideal, all with tons of affixes. There was one strong guy with that 12 star Blitz Fender twin gun.
Had one terrible run yesterday with half the multi being Summoners, and they couldn't break the knees at the start.
A ton of people were on turrets too, so that was a big warning sign.
I feel like a multi's damage must be lacking if I'm WB main and still doing top damage.

Fighter isn't super terribad for TD, if it's played well.
I did a run a while back with a strong JP friend who was Fighter, and they constantly topped damage meters by taking out tons of Exodas.
I recall that my first TD4 was with Fighter and wasn't too bad, either.

This thread is entertaining at best. It has gone through a myriad of topic-changes and side topics. Its amazing because these topics remind me of the topics people write about in student online forums, and discuss openly in offline forum-boards. The only difference is that teenage students can conduct themselves better than in these forums because we actually have an outlet and a rule-set for everything...

People spotting a summoner and saying "ewwww.... let's go after starting the teleporter to teach them a lesson" should not be happening and I do not believe it is the only thing that happens..

What I believe happens is the following:

Players in parties for two - four players look for key people like Ranger with Weak Bullet, as well as communication possibilities. They see a lot of Japanese names are mixed with English names and they demand to themselves a "Gaijin-Free" zone. This had been happening forever where we could walk and find parties that read "JP-ONLY" and yes, when there are parties of four and I am reading who is in the block I see a lot of JP-ONLY parties in the party description....

I also believe that people are set in their ways and if they see any measure of failure or sense any measure of failure, they go to another run......

Also, its true some Japanese are willing to play with non-Japanese, but this does not reflect All-Japanese and there are people who will leave at the drop of a hat, especially in those "Elite" blocks (that is what I call them)...

I mean shit,
We have a thread about people leaving because of Summoner, but there was a time where everyone would turn tail and run if there were more than 2 techers in the MPA...to the point that I keep a tab on the total number of techers and techer subs that exist in the MPAs. For me to count it as a Techer I have to actually be hit with a Full Deband Toughness and Shifta Strike....(These are the ones I count)

The majority of the time when I am playing as Fi/Te, I tend to be the only person in the entire MPA that has a Techer-Sub (AT LEAST) for at least giving a full Deband Cut and Shifta Critical.....while playing Fighter. In fact, today was the very first time in twenty-seven days (I have a chart I keep track of) where I actually was given a DEBAND TOUGHNESS buff in an MPA and saw someone actually playing TECHER support..

The majority of the time I see no techers and everyone wants a ranger with weakbullet, so I try to help out on my Subclass a bit while playing fighter to make things a little bit better...

Most of the time now I don't see Summoner or Techers in endgame MPAs....

Rakurai
Mar 7, 2016, 03:24 PM
I've used Summoner for Magatsu, and it's not nearly as bad as I was expecting it to be.

The only attack you need to bother recalling your pet for (If you're using Wanda, that is) is the lightning spam. It moves and attacks fast enough to keep up and avoid hitting anything other then the spot you have targeted. You can also get off two fully charged Torim Spirals after the leg breaks and after you use the turrets. If you're really on the ball, you can land one whenever an arm breaks, as well.

Gama
Mar 7, 2016, 05:06 PM
found summoner tedious to play, ill just focus on the classes i like.

Evangelion X.XX
Mar 7, 2016, 05:45 PM
I found summoner to be lazy mode. And I don't like the fact that whenever I play Summoner, I feel like i don't really have full command of the pets, 'cause of their AI's.

Seijass
Mar 7, 2016, 11:18 PM
I prefer classes which requires a lot of action and reflex, also flashy (Gu/Ra 4 lyfe, Fi/Hu soon)...

Insert Maidoll's strip featuring Summoner here.

Kondibon
Mar 7, 2016, 11:23 PM
I like the class because it's what I wanted out of Force.

Tunga
Mar 7, 2016, 11:58 PM
I like the class because it's what I wanted out of Force.

How exactly?

Kondibon
Mar 8, 2016, 12:06 AM
How exactly?Fo is more about elemental weaknesses and focusing on particular elements, when what I really want to do is use techs based off how they work mechanically, rather than whichever element things are weak to, or specing into a specific element. Not to mention needing a whole skill tree in some cases.

With pets I can just use whichever pet I feel works best in the situation I'm in instead of which pet the enemies just take 20-40% more damage from.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people not liking Summoner, everyone doesn't have to like every class, I've just been looking for an excuse to bring that up and it felt kinda relevant.

EDIT: Also I laugh when people say the class is lazy mode when it requires more positioning and attentiveness than Fo/Te. :U
My only complaint is the inconsistant pet AI, which most likely isn't intentional design in the first place. I don't mind if the AI is dumb, but it's too inconsistent.

GHNeko
Mar 8, 2016, 11:16 AM
Yeah SU isnt really lazy mode.

It's fairly strong on the micromanaging for optimal play.

I dont play SuBr tho. I currently play SuGu and SuFi, so my typical Su gameplay is already more nuanced than normal.

But even with SuBr, trying to keep up with your pets demands, making sure their constantly Shifted and at full HP, proper positioning, working with the pet AI, making sure you have the right pet for the job. Satifying the conditionals of your pet and your sub as well.

It makes for more tedious gameplay than lazy if you cant find yourself enjoying the class.

I think the lack of JA circles might prematurely convince someone that Su is lazy since you can button mash with like very little consequence to your DPS (not for Sally tho fucking asshole)

Bellion
Mar 8, 2016, 11:57 AM
My biggest complaint about Summoner is that you cannot actually earn a 13* egg that is quite significant for pets due to attack, defense(helps for Alter Ego), personality, AND element increases. While certain 13* Parfaits can be earned, they can be stacked with 13* pets as well. Every other class can earn their respective 13* weapons at this point and so output comparison from the general population is most likely looking at the damage of pets lower than 13* to 13* weapons of other classes that makes Summoner seem weak in comparison. Honestly, having tried 13* weapons of all categories besides eggs really does make Summoner feel weak.

What I actually like about Summoner especially for Torim and Wanda is that each PA serves a purpose. It's also a change of pace from how I usually play compared to every other classes, so I guess there's that too.

sparab
Mar 8, 2016, 12:58 PM
Many people resent the pick up stones for 13* concept, so sega tried to please us with drop only eggs

TaigaUC
Mar 8, 2016, 01:54 PM
I listed all my Summoner issues elsewhere.
I think I listed most of my Su/Br reasons already too, but here they are again:

Reasons I play Su/Br:
- Great utility/versatility, especially in solo/small groups. Can flatten most enemies easily, without WB.
- Torim Stab kinda feels like a railgun in a way. Pierces through multiple enemies for huge numbers.
- Setting up and getting the big numbers from Torim Spiral can be satisfying.
- Guren Tessen for fast travel.
- Trying to get higher rarity eggs to drop, and they still won't.

I don't understand the rare egg distribution. It's like SEGA is trying to gimp us on purpose.
Over 3 characters, I've gotten a billion 10-11 star Saris, only a few 10 star Torims, one 12 star Torim and almost no 10+ star Wandas.
Wanda is supposed to be the all around pet. You'd think that'd be the most common one.

If they weren't adding new pets, I'd really like to have seen the Arks Report for pet usage.
It'd probably be something like 80% Torim, 18% Wanda and 2% Sari.

sparab
Mar 8, 2016, 04:15 PM
I don't understand the rare egg distribution. It's like SEGA is trying to gimp us on purpose.
Over 3 characters, I've gotten a billion 10-11 star Saris, only a few 10 star Torims, one 12 star Torim and almost no 10+ star Wandas.
Wanda is supposed to be the all around pet. You'd think that'd be the most common one.

If they weren't adding new pets, I'd really like to have seen the Arks Report for pet usage.
It'd probably be something like 80% Torim, 18% Wanda and 2% Sari.

Most Su has 12/13 wanda if they grind trigger train, and 12/13 sally is mockingly easy to get from PD/magatsu/demise
Torim 13, however, is rare as psycho wand back in EP1

Also, from some source maron and melon will only drop from "high difficulty" quests such as DF

GHNeko
Mar 8, 2016, 04:21 PM
I got a 13* Wanda the other day when I randomly decided to join a japanese trigger party.

Got a 12* Wanda from the same trigger party.


Bullshit that 13* Sally is easy as fuck to get from PD/Magatsu/Demise

I've been grinding those fuckers out with all sorts of boosts for the past 2 weeks and all I've gotten for my troubles is a million 10* Sallys, 1 12*, and 0 13*s.

and i need to eventually end up with SIX 13* sallys.

wtf

Macman
Mar 8, 2016, 07:14 PM
and i need to eventually end up with SIX 13* sallys.

wtf

Well in reality you only need 5 sallys as the only things exclusively weak to light are PD, purpleswordeasyman, and humanoid apprentice(?) and unless you're trying to top the charts on PD (you wont with sally) you are fine just using whatever.

But still! The egg droprate is garbage.

Z-0
Mar 8, 2016, 07:21 PM
Yeah Sari is impossible to get. I started doing all those EQs on multiple ships as well and I don't have a 13* Sari anywhere...

TaigaUC
Mar 8, 2016, 07:41 PM
Oh, I should have specified. I haven't seen a 13 star Sari at all. But then, I haven't seen a 13 star any pet.
In fact, I haven't seen any 13 stars drop for a long time now.
Well, other than Gidoras farming, and that was a while ago already. Ended up not using any of the ones I got from Gidoras.
I've been doing almost every PD/Magatsu/TD4/Eluther and using 500%+ boosts most of the time, too.
Killed Gryphon a ton of times in the limited quest and no 13 stars.

cheapgunner
Mar 8, 2016, 08:00 PM
Oh, I should have specified. I haven't seen a 13 star Sari at all. But then, I haven't seen a 13 star any pet.
In fact, I haven't seen any 13 stars drop for a long time now.
Well, other than Gidoras farming, and that was a while ago already. Ended up not using any of the ones I got from Gidoras.
I've been doing almost every PD/Magatsu/TD4/Eluther and using 500%+ boosts most of the time, too.
Killed Gryphon a ton of times in the limited quest and no 13 stars.

I feel your pain. They made the 13*s for this class difficult as f*** to acquire. I would have tried SHAQs with max risk but that didn't see really profitable at the tme when LQs were being run into the dirt. I still can't fathom why they didn't put 13* pets for trade for end-game stones. Just makes the proverbial carrot stick that much more fustrating.

Rakurai
Mar 8, 2016, 09:40 PM
I got a second 13* Sari from TD Demise recently.

I don't think I'd try for rainbow pets of anything other then Wanda, though.

ArcaneTechs
Mar 8, 2016, 10:00 PM
Anga drops 13* Cery Egg, boost week is around the corner with extra UQ boost, hop to it

pkemr4
Mar 8, 2016, 10:10 PM
i have yet to get a 10* Torim from Eqs but i got a 12* Ceri egg from Magatsu (i think or maybe was TD4)

Sir Loin
Mar 8, 2016, 10:10 PM
Don't know if it was because I was using Summoner, but I'd think a lot of people would know that I don't suck at using the class considering that I almost never place out of the top three and participate regularly.
hahahaha... another gaijin who thinks scoring in the top 3 makes them good at the eq. get outta here.

Rakurai
Mar 8, 2016, 11:37 PM
Obvious troll account and I have a pretty good idea of who's it probably is.

Getting a high score at least means you know how to handle an AIS properly, as opposed to being one of those guys who waste time attacking AIS Exoda and don't use anything but the missiles. You shouldn't be getting outscored by on-foot players ever if you're using an AIS, but I see it happen surprisingly often.

sparab
Mar 8, 2016, 11:45 PM
I usually get 2-3 10* wanda/sally per loser/demise. On the other hand, Elder is the only raid boss that (suppose to) drop torim but all I have got is meseta

GHNeko
Mar 9, 2016, 12:17 AM
I got a second 13* Sari from TD Demise recently.

http://i.imgur.com/OZEGSiM.gif

What the fuck lmfao


Anga drops 13* Cery Egg, boost week is around the corner with extra UQ boost, hop to it

http://i.imgur.com/aQHHrYZ.gif?3

GlowSticks
Mar 9, 2016, 01:28 AM
Wow, that's lame, like whatever happened to just chilling and playing the freaking game, if they are that "serious" about what other people are doing these guys shouldn't even be playing with randoms in the first place but should be playing in co-ordinated teams of like minded people.

Like I get maybe leaving if someone is just idling in mpas or whatever, but otherwise that **** is whack.

Makes me want to make a cast fo/su running a dex mag and casting spells from the sub pallete whilst wielding a tuna just to spite them.

I'm glad I'm in a team and although I would like to pick up some Japanese language skills at some point I'm kind of glad I'm missing this without being informed here, this is straight up toxic.

Also like to add that I'm not even running a summoner yet, this type of crap just riles me, makes me glad the only competitive games I play are 1 vs 1, no-one to give me crap for playing how I like but myself.

Yeah, kids these days just want perfection. I've never cared who was in my party for EQs, I just want to have fun. :)

ArcaneTechs
Mar 9, 2016, 01:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/OZEGSiM.gif

What the fuck lmfao



http://i.imgur.com/aQHHrYZ.gif?3
is it bad i got mine on my 15th Anga? Torim being the pain though

Kondibon
Mar 9, 2016, 02:12 AM
Yeah, kids these days just want perfection. I've never cared who was in my party for EQs, I just want to have fun. :)
So your fun is more important than everyone else's?

GHNeko
Mar 9, 2016, 04:48 AM
is it bad i got mine on my 15th Anga? Torim being the pain though

I'm only a little upset.

Just a tad.

SteveCZ
Mar 9, 2016, 04:53 AM
Yeah, kids these days just want perfection. I've never cared who was in my party for EQs, I just want to have fun. :)

Lesson learned that I can share: Every player has their own term of "Fun".

lunamaniac
Mar 9, 2016, 05:01 AM
So your fun is more important than everyone else's?

If you want perfect runs, shouldn't you find perfect players to run with?

PUGS are always going to be a mixed bag, and even then PSO2's PUGS are a lot more bearable than in other games I've played.

I'm not sure if it's productive to get angry at other people for not playing how you like when you could always just find a party or an active team to run things with instead of leaving the rest of your MPA to chance.

I do understand that it's unfair to turn up unprepared for an EQ and expect to be carried, but scorn or anger seem unlikely to solve the issue.

GHNeko
Mar 9, 2016, 05:11 AM
OH BOY HERE GOES THIS TOPIC AGAIN LMFAO


ABANDON SHIP

Kondibon
Mar 9, 2016, 05:12 AM
If you want perfect runs, shouldn't you find perfect players to run with?

PUGS are always going to be a mixed bag, and even then PSO2's PUGS are a lot more bearable than in other games I've played.

I'm not sure if it's productive to get angry at other people for not playing how you like when you could always just find a party or an active team to run things with instead of leaving the rest of your MPA to chance.

I do understand that it's unfair to turn up unprepared for an EQ and expect to be carried, but scorn or anger seem unlikely to solve the issue.I would agree if organizing a group around the EQ schedule wasn't such a pain. If it was something like raid, where instead of only getting to do it when its up you could do it a certain number of times a day or week that would work great. But with the way EQs are set up it's not always feasable to get everyone together during the EQ. Like... I REALLY want to agree with you, but the EQ system is a pain in the ass for organized groups. The same thing kinda happened in GW2 with some of the big scheduled World bosses. :/

lunamaniac
Mar 9, 2016, 05:25 AM
I would agree if organizing a group around the EQ schedule wasn't such a pain. If it was something like raid, where instead of only getting to do it when its up you could do it a certain number of times a day or week that would work great. But with the way EQs are set up it's not always feasable to get everyone together during the EQ. Like... I REALLY want to agree with you, but the EQ system is a pain in the ass for organized groups. The same thing kinda happened in GW2 with some of the big scheduled World bosses. :/

That's a sound point, maybe it's just impossible to get perfect runs every time. :cry:

Keilyn
Mar 9, 2016, 07:49 AM
I would agree if organizing a group around the EQ schedule wasn't such a pain. If it was something like raid, where instead of only getting to do it when its up you could do it a certain number of times a day or week that would work great. But with the way EQs are set up it's not always feasable to get everyone together during the EQ. Like... I REALLY want to agree with you, but the EQ system is a pain in the ass for organized groups. The same thing kinda happened in GW2 with some of the big scheduled World bosses. :/

You mentioned Guild Wars 2...
Imagine every boss in PSO2 getting Tequatl treatment :)

Kondibon
Mar 9, 2016, 08:14 AM
You mentioned Guild Wars 2...
Imagine every boss in PSO2 getting Tequatl treatment :)I think I get where you're coming from, but Tequatl got nerfed, same with triple trouble worms. If you just mean making boss fights require more coordination, I'd be fine with that. I mainly brought up GW2 because I remember people hating trying to do organized runs for Teq because it was a time limited boss that required coordination, but getting everyone in the same place was a logistical nightmare.

Keilyn
Mar 9, 2016, 08:43 AM
I think I get where you're coming from, but Tequatl got nerfed, same with triple trouble worms. If you just mean making boss fights require more coordination, I'd be fine with that. I mainly brought up GW2 because I remember people hating trying to do organized runs for Teq because it was a time limited boss that required coordination, but getting everyone in the same place was a logistical nightmare.

Originally Tequatl was a boss fight that was super easy that could be destroyed with 15 players. However, Arenanet eventually gave Tequatl an upgrade, causing the boss fight to become a high-end coordinated battle that only Blackgate, Tarnished Coast, and Jade Quarry Servers had a chance in hell in beating.

The result was a boss fight that required around 50+ people to actually win split into three different groups. It was pretty cool... ;)

Are you telling me in the last year they nerfed Tequatl back into the oblivion and abysmal boss fight it used to be?

Kondibon
Mar 9, 2016, 10:19 AM
Originally Tequatl was a boss fight that was super easy that could be destroyed with 15 players. However, Arenanet eventually gave Tequatl an upgrade, causing the boss fight to become a high-end coordinated battle that only Blackgate, Tarnished Coast, and Jade Quarry Servers had a chance in hell in beating.

The result was a boss fight that required around 50+ people to actually win split into three different groups. It was pretty cool... ;)

Are you telling me in the last year they nerfed Tequatl back into the oblivion and abysmal boss fight it used to be?They kept the new mechanics and complexity, but I think they lowered Teq's hp and maybe toned down some of the adds, to make it more managable for PUGs due to the nature of the map. Same with the worms.

Some of the content in the expansion filled the niche though.

Iduno
Mar 9, 2016, 08:20 PM
So your fun is more important than everyone else's?

Ask yourself that question too.

Like it or not, games will always have people playing for fun, running odd builds, using a certain weapon or skill just because they like it, not knowing the cookie cutter max dps builds or simply having to use whatever gear they can get to drop because they can't buy 10* stuff because they don't have premium.

Your fun is no more legitimate than a more casual player's and I'd suggest that the person moaning because other people aren't playing the game he wants to needs to be asking himself that more than people who are simply playing the game how they want.

Taking a game seriously isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the moment you start trying to force everyone else to play how you want them to, well that's when it becomes more than taking the game seriously and becomes being a jerk.

And arranging a group for EQs isn't impossible, if people can arrange teams to physically travel across the world to enter events and tournaments for other games it should be very possible for a group of like minded individuals to arrange to log on at the same time to thrash an EQ, the trouble is it's far easier to just join PUGs and whine that the casuals ruined your run afterwards.

On the plus side here on ship 10 I've been running a Bo/Fi Jetboots main and an alt who is a Br/Bo exclusively using Katanas which give tech attack and a full dex mag with both Braver and Bouncer mag maxed out so I can do the whole spellsword thing and I've yet to receive any hate in game for it at all and I'm also seeing hunter mains and plenty of summoners out in full force not receiving hate or driving players out of MPAs either so I'm guessing the haters are simply a vocal minority.

Kyras
Mar 9, 2016, 08:43 PM
Originally Tequatl was a boss fight that was super easy that could be destroyed with 15 players. However, Arenanet eventually gave Tequatl an upgrade, causing the boss fight to become a high-end coordinated battle that only Blackgate, Tarnished Coast, and Jade Quarry Servers had a chance in hell in beating.

The result was a boss fight that required around 50+ people to actually win split into three different groups. It was pretty cool... ;)

Are you telling me in the last year they nerfed Tequatl back into the oblivion and abysmal boss fight it used to be?

The only hard part about post-rising Tequatl was that most of the low-mid pop servers didn't have enough people to do an organized run. Once Anet added mega servers, Tequatl went back to being another part of daily world boss slog.

TaigaUC
Mar 9, 2016, 09:02 PM
Just keep in mind that regardless of anyone's perception of fun, it all still relies heavily on SEGA's game design.
If the game design was better, everyone would probably find the same stuff fun, and there'd be less divide between players.

Kondibon
Mar 9, 2016, 09:25 PM
Ask yourself that question too.

Like it or not, games will always have people playing for fun, running odd builds, using a certain weapon or skill just because they like it, not knowing the cookie cutter max dps builds or simply having to use whatever gear they can get to drop because they can't buy 10* stuff because they don't have premium.

Your fun is no more legitimate than a more casual player's and I'd suggest that the person moaning because other people aren't playing the game he wants to needs to be asking himself that more than people who are simply playing the game how they want.

Taking a game seriously isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the moment you start trying to force everyone else to play how you want them to, well that's when it becomes more than taking the game seriously and becomes being a jerk.

And arranging a group for EQs isn't impossible, if people can arrange teams to physically travel across the world to enter events and tournaments for other games it should be very possible for a group of like minded individuals to arrange to log on at the same time to thrash an EQ, the trouble is it's far easier to just join PUGs and whine that the casuals ruined your run afterwards.

On the plus side here on ship 10 I've been running a Bo/Fi Jetboots main and an alt who is a Br/Bo exclusively using Katanas which give tech attack and a full dex mag with both Braver and Bouncer mag maxed out so I can do the whole spellsword thing and I've yet to receive any hate in game for it at all and I'm also seeing hunter mains and plenty of summoners out in full force not receiving hate or driving players out of MPAs either so I'm guessing the haters are simply a vocal minority.You missed my point. You're literally trying to argue against my point with my point.

EDIT: actually, let me rephrase that. I'm just tired of people going "but I play for fun" like it means something. Everyone is playing for fun, it's not even relevant. I'm really pissed off that you're assuming things about how I play too.

Also I never said organized groups are impossible, I said they're a pain to organize.



If the game design was better, everyone would probably find the same stuff fun,
Thaaat's a pipe dream... No matter how well the game is designed people are always going to play in different ways.