4/20 Class/Weapon Rebalance

[sparab]

Get ready for some EP4 experience for non Su players! And enjoy your free reskill tickets

Hunter:
- Wired lance normal/step attack receives shorter hit stop
- WLPA bind throw power up
- WLPA grap charge will have quicker JA timing and power up when you fail to grab an enemy
- WLPA heavenly fall will have quicker JA timing when used on ground
- WLPA azaspin can re-adjust a larger degree when you hold an enemy
- WLPA air pocket swing power up and receives JA timing during the attack
- WLPA wild round will have quicker JA timing and has slower fall timing in air
- WLPA adapt spin costs less PP
- Partisan's post PA weapon action now regain PP as normal
- PTPA slide shaker costs less PP
- PTPA speed rain costs less PP and will have better JA timing
- PTPA trick rab power and range up and costs less PP
- PTPA band snatch power up and has slower fall timing in air
- Sword is too good and too popular to be re-adjust

Fighter:
- TDPA rising walz receives increased motion speed and gear increase when used on ground
- TDPA shot polka power up and costs less PP
- TDPA facet folia power up and range up (first hit) and costs less PP
- TDPA fall nocturne power up
- DBPA scissor edge power up and has slower fall timing in air
- DBPA rambling moon power and gear increase up, has slower fall timing in air
- Knuckle too stronk

Ranger:
- Launcher normal attack receives shorter JA timing between 1st/2nd shots and has slower fall timing in air
- ARcustomizedPA homing emission zero costs less PP
- LNPA concentrate one power up and costs less PP
- LNPA cracker bullet power and range up
- LNPA zero distance power and range up
- LNPA rodeo drive costs less PP
- LNPA crezy smash has increased action speed
- LNPA flame bullet power and range up
- LNPA cosmo breaker costs less PP
- LNPA sphere eraser power up and drains PP slower in use

Gunner:
- To balanced

Force:
- Rod receives faster tech JA timing

Techer:
- Wand receives faster tech JA timing
- Wand normal attack has slower fall timing in air
- Skill wand lovers will keep effect when restart a quest in campship

Braver:
- To balanced

Bouncers:
- Jet boots normal/step attack receives shorter hit stop
- JB receives faster tech JA timing
- JBPA strike gust has shorter charge time; weapon action will kick enemies downward (?) and can be step cancelled
- JBPA gran wave can be step cancelled
- JBPA wind jika's weapon action kick can switch direction and power up when used with 1/2 gear level
- Skill rapid boost has increased effect time

SummonerGunslash:
- CustomizedPA tri impact zero will have attack power adjusted between each attack; slash damage down/projectile damage up
- GSPA aming shot charges quicker and costs less PP; projectile/range up
- GSPA thriller plode costs less PP


Minor changes:
- Fighter skill crazy heart PP regain+ now applies to pet normal attack
- Button smash PA can also be triggered by press&hold an empty palate space
- While casting NaZonde, press palate switch button switches your palate
- Perfect keeper rings now show how much HP is needed for their effects
- Just guard PA rings now have just guard invincible frame
- Maron/Melon curse is easier to hit
- AIS machine gun has increased range

[Lyrise]

For anyone wondering where this came from, see this page: http://pso2.jp/players/update/20160420/12/

Also, BR managed to escape the rebalancing this time.

[Zeroem]

That....is pretty much all buffs.

.....Now I fear about the other stuffs mentioned, like Wand Reactors

[Saagonsa]

That....is pretty much all buffs.

.....Now I fear about the other stuffs mentioned, like Wand Reactors

All of the changes they listed are most likely going to be buffs. The wand lovers one is just that it will no longer be reset when you go into the campship.

[Cyber Meteor]

- LNPA sphere eraser power up and drains PP slower in use

I really hope the power up will be high, it really needs it. Still, YEEEESSSSSS!!!:D

[TaigaUC]

Well, I guess I won't have to complain about stuff like Wired Lance being too slow in the enquete.
Nice to see they're buffing Launcher too.

Jet Boots needs more PAs. Seriously.
I know the existing ones already serve pretty much every purpose, but only 4 PAs puts me to sleep.

Stuff I'd like to see:

Sword:
- Faster startup on attacks, faster step attack.
- New Over End Custom PA: do only the final swing.

Gunner:
- Boss DPS no longer relies extremely heavily on Chain Trigger. So it doesn't feel like I'm weak as nuts outside of it.

Summoner:
- Candy Box is no longer a pain up the ass to setup.
- Pancakes no longer take forever to create.
- Setting up summoner no longer requires 300+ EXP cubes and 99999999 Synthesizers.
- Billions of Sari eggs no longer drop from everything in the galaxy.
- Summoner eggs can now be used to do something worth the price it costs to identify them.



- Skill wand lovers will keep effect when restart a quest in campship


Holy crap. When the Summoner's switch skills got fixed and they ignored Wand Lovers I thought they were never gonna fix it.

[nguuuquaaa]

- DBPA scissor edge power up and has slower fall timing in air
- DBPA rambling moon power and gear increase up, has slower fall timing in air
Good bye Fake Capture, no one would miss you.


- Wand normal attack has slower fall timing in air
It's time for wand to graduate from "very bad at aerial battle"(?)


Gunslash:
- CustomizedPA tri impact zero will have attack power adjusted between each attack; slash damage down/projectile damage up
- GSPA aming shot charges quicker and costs lesser PP; projectile/range up
- GSPA thriller plode costs lesser PP
More GS buff is always appreciated.

[Stormwalker]

So Gunner remains the least-played class in the game and every other class gets buffed?

Right now GU/RA has exactly one good PA for actually dealing damage (Satellite Aim) that it spams all the time, and GU/HU is in a similar state with Dead Approach.

At this point I wish they'd just remove Chain Trigger from the game if it's so OP that they refuse to give Gunner any other way to actually kill something.

[Naska]

Ayy, nice to see more buffs and buffs to Wired Lance. Gonna bet it's still gonna stuck at the lowest ranking of weapon popularity despite thousand of buffs since the beginning of time.


So Gunner remains the least-played class in the game and every other class gets buffed?

Right now GU/RA has exactly one good PA for actually dealing damage (Satellite Aim) that it spams all the time, and GU/HU is in a similar state with Dead Approach.

At this point I wish they'd just remove Chain Trigger from the game if it's so OP that they refuse to give Gunner any other way to actually kill something.

Chain Trigger isn't that easy to pull off if you can't do S-roll though. So in a way, it's balanced by going on cd if you take a hit.
But I'd like a new skill for Gunner that is somewhat a replacement for CT too.

[Zorak000]

sorry but fake capture is part of my Chaos Dunk combo of Fake Capture (dunks an enemy then throws them away, preferably into a group of other enemies) -> Hurricane Sender (creates a hoop for dunking) -> Surprise Dunk (into the hoop, killing millions)

all we need is a b-ball doublesaber camo and i'll be set forever

[NoobSpectre]

Get ready for some EP4 experience for non Su players! And enjoy your free reskill tickets

Ranger:
- Launcher normal attack receives shorter JA timing between 1st/2nd shots and has slower fall timing in air
- ARcustomizedPA homing emission zero costs lesser PP
- LNPA concentrate one power up and costs lesser PP
- LNPA cracker bullet power and range up
- LNPA zero distance power and range up
- LNPA rodeo drive costs lesser PP
- LNPA crezy smash has increased action speed
- LNPA flame bullet power and range up
- LNPA cosmo breaker costs lesser PP
- LNPA sphere eraser power up and drains PP slower in use


Laser up? Finally. Zero Distance is kinda stronk as it is though.

The thing that bothers me is they dun care about Cluster, all LN buff But Cluster. That pa needs more love.

[sparab]

The thing that bothers me is they dun care about Cluster, all LN buff But Cluster. That pa needs more love.

Divine launcher

Cluster is one of the more popular PA that only received nerf since EP3

[D-Inferno]

Why is SEGA so reluctant to actually nerf certain things? Vol Graptor (?), Banish Arrow (especially with /Gu), Ilbarta, Ragrants, C-Techs, and others I may have missed/don't know could still use a nerf. And I really hope "Zanverse classes" are killed off completely someday by making Zanverse benefit -only- from Wind Masteries (or hell, not even).

On the buffs themselves; glad to see something be done about JB. Turnable Vinto (assuming that's what OP called "Wind Jika"). Longer Rapid Boost is really nice too. However, Bouncer still needs a damage-boosting main-class skill, and to rely less on PBF for it's single target dps (maybe a chargeable Distract Wing someday...?). Buffs to Wired Lances aren't bad either.

Sadly, Star Gems might ruin everything about this update, but that remains to be seen. I definitely feel this is the "true" Ep4 update; the January update did jack.

[nguuuquaaa]

sorry but fake capture is part of my Chaos Dunk combo of Fake Capture (dunks an enemy then throws them away, preferably into a group of other enemies) -> Hurricane Sender (creates a hoop for dunking) -> Surprise Dunk (into the hoop, killing millions)

all we need is a b-ball doublesaber camo and i'll be set forever
I Acro Effect (jump into the air) ~> Chaos (Riser ~> Surprise) Dunk :wacko:
And yeah, a basketball camo would be VERY great.


So Gunner remains the least-played class in the game and every other class gets buffed?
No, Techer is the least-played class, and always be.

[sparab]

Why is SEGA so reluctant to actually nerf certain things?

Back in early EP3 SGNM did some actually rebalance that included nerf to all popular EP2 builds. Most of those changes are necessary for an action game, but they drove off a lot of players (money source)

To me the only thing that should be nerfed at the moment is luckyraise units

[Xaelouse]

Honestly before this I was thinking they should boost uptime on both rapid boost and PBF, but they only opted for rapid boost instead. Nothing wrong with that though, since any decent bouncer needs to stop ignoring one weapon over another against bosses. The class isn't meant to function like Braver too. DB and JB both have okayish mobbing options and great single-target DPS under their cooldowns.

Along with shortened charge time on Strike Gust, assuming it's reduced to 0.5 sec outside RB, should make JBs see use at least 66% of the time on the class. I wonder though, how much will the charge be reduced under rapid boost after this change?

Curious about Vinto Gigue/Wind Seiger/That Boots PA That Costs 35 PP's non-derived move. If they balance it right, then it can be worth sandwiching it between moment gale spam.

Step cancelling Gran Wave will help with gap closing.

Hunter buffs aren't too amazing, but Air Pocket Swing's new changes may lead to some decent shenanigans thanks to JA during it, and bind throw might become a decent option for attacking from a safe range (hopefully it has similar DPS to type-0 cerberus dance). Adapt Spin needs to cost like 5 pp like some of Summoner's PAs.

It made me sad that custom tri-impact's shockwaves did so little damage. If it works out, might become another decent tool for FI.


Why is SEGA so reluctant to actually nerf certain things? Vol Graptor (?), Banish Arrow (especially with /Gu), Ilbarta, Ragrants, C-Techs, and others I may have missed/don't know could still use a nerf. And I really hope "Zanverse classes" are killed off completely someday by making Zanverse benefit -only- from Wind Masteries (or hell, not even).


Besides compound techs, none of those things really deserve a nerf. BR/GU shenanigans is hard to tweak without breaking something and is useless in most of the content anyway.

[Stormwalker]

If anything in this game needs a nerf, it is still Weak Bullet.

Seriously, though, I feel like Gunner will never be good because Sega is afraid that anything they do to make it strong outside of Chain Trigger will make it horribly broken WITH Chain Trigger. And if that is the case, isn't the obvious answer to nerf CT and buff everything else about the class?

[Shinmarizu]

That list is nice. I'll take it. Further cements my decision to chase an Orbit Launcher.

[Sayara]

- Billions of Sari eggs no longer drop from everything in the galaxy.
- Summoner eggs can now be used to do something worth the price it costs to identify them.



Holy crap. When the Summoner's switch skills got fixed and they ignored Wand Lovers I thought they were never gonna fix it.

Id like Eggs to be mag feedable, excubeable or something. Cuz goddamn its a waste of a rare drop for a nonsummoner player.

[Stormwalker]

Why is SEGA so reluctant to actually nerf certain things? Vol Graptor (?), Banish Arrow (especially with /Gu), Ilbarta, Ragrants, C-Techs, and others I may have missed/don't know could still use a nerf. And I really hope "Zanverse classes" are killed off completely someday by making Zanverse benefit -only- from Wind Masteries (or hell, not even).



Seriously, you listed all of that and left off the #1 offender: Weak Bullet? If anything in this game needs to be nerfed, it is that.

[SteveCZ]

Hopefully Raging Waltz -> Fall Nocturne -> Whatever combo can finally come true in terms of damage.
The gear increase from the ground is already good enough.
Scissor Edge gets even more love for my combo with Illusion Rave. Hopefully I can start with rumbling moon too.

Fo is just getting stronger and stronger.

Finally JB got some things. Can finally struggle over my storage for my long buried Zirenheit and have fun with it for a little while.

And even though I don't play Ranger, I'm sure many players are excited with Sphere Eraser. Hopefully it's buffed to the point that everyone expected it to be.

[Great Pan]

Instant-death Megido when? I'll spam this all day.

[Stormwalker]

Hopefully Raging Waltz -> Fall Nocturne -> Whatever combo can finally come true in terms of damage.
The gear increase from the ground is already good enough.
Scissor Edge gets even more love for my combo with Illusion Rave. Hopefully I can start with rumbling moon too.

Raging Waltz -> Fall Nocturne -> Facet Folia combos beautifully, so if the buff is sufficient...

[D-Inferno]

Besides compound techs, none of those things really deserve a nerf. BR/GU shenanigans is hard to tweak without breaking something and is useless in most of the content anyway.
BrGu kills Magatsu faster than any other class; two of them paired with Zanverse class can kill App Gia w/o any AIS. Ilbarta makes every Ice-weak boss trivial because you can just sit there, lock on, and spam it while while other FoTes help build the chain (dumb mechanic). Ragrants + Zondeel is FoTe's most powerful tool besides Ilb and C-Techs. Vol Graptor; while not as broken as Banish Arrow; is basically the same thing functionally. Zanverse classes are stupid because not only do they do little but spam Zanverse; but the fact that certain skills randomly boost it because they're "universal" damage boosts; and thus feels like an oversight by SEGA. How come Brave and Wise Stance (and I think a few other all-dmg boost skills) don't boost Zanverse? I honestly think -nothing- should boost Zanverse at all; so that you can't "mess up" each other's Zanverses.

Seriously, you listed all of that and left off the #1 offender: Weak Bullet? If anything in this game needs to be nerfed, it is that.
Almost every new EQ boss/enemy has WB Jam, and I'm sure Yamato will have jam too.

[Stormwalker]

Almost every new EQ boss/enemy has WB Jam, and I'm sure Yamato will have jam too.

And this is exactly the evidence that WB should be nerfed.

WB Jam is a band-aid slapped on top of the biggest balance flaw in the game.

[wefwq]

I think the anime actually breath some buff to GS, oh man.

[D-Inferno]

And this is exactly the evidence that WB should be nerfed.

WB Jam is a band-aid slapped on top of the biggest balance flaw in the game.
Non-jam WB is pretty dumb; though it doesn't really make any classes overpowered since everyone benefits from it. I do think that Lv81+ enemies (whenever they'll happen) should get the jammer though.

[Selphea]

It's not a buff when every other weapon except DBs has received relatively more since Ep3 ;_;

Slash Rave has fallen pretty far behind vs. bosses because End Attract was added and BHS, Orchestra and Quick March were buffed.

[nguuuquaaa]

How come Brave and Wise Stance (and I think a few other all-dmg boost skills) boost Zanverse?

Just double checked on swiki, Brave/Wise Stance do not boost Zanverse, so as Braver's and Hunter's stances, but Bouncer's stances do.

The problem with Techer is, beside bow shenanigan, normal atk and off-class weapons produce extremely low DPS, about... half that of Fighter? So for bossing the only option is to abusing Zanverse.
I wish they could remove all damage boosting for Zanverse and add main-class only Support Up or something. That way Techer could be more useful in MPA.

^ Slash Rave still has reasonable DPP tho.

[Stormwalker]

Only to the gun part. The slash part, which is where the fun is, is getting nerfed.

Or an I the only person who misses Saber badly and Gunslash is as close as I can get?

[Stormwalker]

Non-jam WB is pretty dumb; though it doesn't really make any classes overpowered since everyone benefits from it. I do think that Lv81+ enemies (whenever they'll happen) should get the jammer though.

The problem is that when WB is so strong, RA (and all too often GU/RA) exists only to be the WB slave.

WB doesn't make classes overpowered, it keeps classes underpowered.

[D-Inferno]

Just double checked on swiki, Brave/Wise Stance do not boost Zanverse, so as Braver's and Hunter's stances, but Bouncer's stances do.

The problem with Techer is, beside bow shenanigan, normal atk and off-class weapons produce extremely low DPS, about... half that of Fighter? So for bossing the only option is to abusing Zanverse.
I wish they could remove all damage boosting for Zanverse and add main-class only Support Up or something. That way Techer could be more useful in MPA.

^ Slash Rave still has reasonable DPP tho.
The problem is that skills like Perfect Keeper, High Time, and I think Su's All Atk Boost Zanverse, despite using nothing else from those classes (Bo/Te Break Stance w/Niren also boosts Zanverse I think). It really should just be something Fo, Te, and Bo can use w/o being either too strong, or possibly conflicting with other's Zanverses. Te already does it's job by buffing the entire mpa. Te would likely be the core Zanverse spammer anyway.

[Saagonsa]

The problem is that when WB is so strong, RA (and all too often GU/RA) exists only to be the WB slave.

WB doesn't make classes overpowered, it keeps classes underpowered.

Honestly, WB really isn't much of a problem for ranger anymore. Having WB loaded doesn't really stop ranger from doing anything now that bullet keep+orbit launcher and stun grenade+tactics trap are a thing.

[Stormwalker]

Honestly, WB really isn't much of a problem for ranger anymore. Having WB loaded doesn't really stop ranger from doing anything now that bullet keep+orbit launcher and stun grenade+tactics trap are a thing.

Except RA's damage is still kinda pitiful when WB is not in play.

Also, GU/RA is still utterly screwed if there isn't an RA in the multiparty (way too common) because you are stuck on rifle the whole time nursing your WB.

[Saagonsa]

Except RA's damage is still kinda pitiful when WB is not in play.

Also, GU/RA is still utterly screwed if there isn't an RA in the multiparty (way too common) because you are stuck on rifle the whole time nursing your WB.

Ra damage is really good when you're hitting weakpoints even without WB, though I dunno why you wouldn't use WB in the first place. The Gu thing isn't ideal but its not like you don't have any viable bossing options while on rifle.

[Stormwalker]

Ra damage is really good when you're hitting weakpoints even without WB, though I dunno why you wouldn't use WB in the first place. The Gu thing isn't ideal but its not like you don't have any viable bossing options while on rifle.

No, but if I wanted to be using a rifle I would be playing RA.

Twin Machineguns are the entire point of GU.

[Keilyn]

Finally...

I hated having to turn on Wand Lovers at the beginning of each map. The fighter/techer combination on these skills actually is awakening more of the sleeper element in this combination considering gearing this combination is actually a lovely insanity for me.

[MightyHarken]

Seriously, you listed all of that and left off the #1 offender: Weak Bullet? If anything in this game needs to be nerfed, it is that.

If they nerf weak bullet, ranger needs a heavy buff skill tree wise since rifle is the weakest r atk weapon in the game, if not. then rifle pa's will need a 500% power buff to make up for it.

[Neith]

No Guren-tessen adjustments? (Guren spammers, pls) If you're going to adjust Braver, how about remembering it has another weapon and adjusting Bow for a change?

Glad to see launcher getting some buffs (particularly Sphere Eraser!) but honestly player characters are overpowered already and if anything needs buffs it's the enemies :wacko:

[Tunga]

adjusting Bow for a change?


They adjusted the skill tree to accommodate both Bow and katanas without gimping each other. Bow already has banish what else do you want.

[sparab]

Bow already has banish what else do you want.

Bow strike/tech switch and katana gear release keep would do

[Tunga]

Bow strike/tech switch

Vast majority of bows don't carry s atk and techs scale of t atk how would that help?

[sparab]

Just give S/Tatk to NT bows and we will have less kataman on the run

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

No Guren-tessen adjustments? (Guren spammers, pls)

It's technically the 2nd best at everything at once, other katana PAs still see niche use, and is clearly inferior to sakura end against certain toy darkers.

It's nowhere near how powerful shunka was compared to everything and everyone else relatively speaking before the tail end of ep2.

Compounds need a nerf more than katanas do at this point.

[Evangelion X.XX]

Those folks who always complain about Guren, I seriously wonder if they actually play Braver.

If they do, they'll know that you'll be using Guren about 70-80% of the time, simply because it's more effective/efficient/fast for mobbing and dashing, and sometimes even bossing, especially in XH.

The remainder of the time, you'll use Sakura for precision purposes, such as breaking Goldies' faces and then following up with another Sakura to hit its now open-face-weak-point, PP-dumping/generating hits with Hatou, Gekka/Kanran for knockdowns, and once in a while BaniKami with bow, aside from using Orbit for its PP regen.

Seriously, if you're not dashing with or spamming Guren 70-80% of the time, you're not very efficient, and quite frankly, not a very good Braver.

Granted, however, if you spam Guren 100% of the time, well then, that's a totally different story.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Those folks who always complain about Guren, I seriously wonder if they actually play Braver.


I think it's still leftover shunka-spam stigma. I wonder if they remember that pre-nerf shunka's real power rating was actually almost 6000 by today's rating standard.

[sparab]

Guren's damage aside, the mobility you can get with 10 PP is just ridiculous
It would be fair to make guren spends 20 PP on use and no cost for the back slash

[yoshiblue]

Or reduce the cost of Ilzonde and give every other class the same kind of mobility/ make heartless impact and crafted raising flag cancel-able, ect.

[sparab]

It took four and a half year before sega figured out rodeo drive costs three time more and moves 1/3 as fast as guren

[Tunga]

Just give S/Tatk to NT bows and we will have less kataman on the run

You have a 2 skills that gives 500 R-atk combined, Bow strike/tech will not work. Besides that will not fix "kataman". People will use what's more fun and that is katanas not bows.

[GlowSticks]

Awesome.. WL gets quicker.

[D-Inferno]

Just double checked on swiki, Brave/Wise Stance do not boost Zanverse, so as Braver's and Hunter's stances, but Bouncer's stances do.

The problem with Techer is, beside bow shenanigan, normal atk and off-class weapons produce extremely low DPS, about... half that of Fighter? So for bossing the only option is to abusing Zanverse.
I wish they could remove all damage boosting for Zanverse and add main-class only Support Up or something. That way Techer could be more useful in MPA.

^ Slash Rave still has reasonable DPP tho.
Ack, meant to say "don't" in there. It's still pretty weird, though.

[sparab]

You have a 2 skills that gives 500 R-atk combined, Bow strike/tech will not work. Besides that will not fix "kataman". People will use what's more fun and that is katanas not bows.

You can max out both average and weak stance with 10 extra skill points, which benefits katana main as well
And I thought wire lance is the most fun weapon

[Tunga]

And I thought wire lance is the most fun weapon
That was just bow vs katana :-)

[hoangsea]

still not enough love for sword and melee wands :-?

[Nyansan]

Ranger:
- Launcher normal attack receives shorter JA timing between 1st/2nd shots and has slower fall timing in air
- ARcustomizedPA homing emission zero costs lesser PP
- LNPA concentrate one power up and costs lesser PP
- LNPA cracker bullet power and range up
- LNPA zero distance power and range up
- LNPA rodeo drive costs lesser PP
- LNPA crezy smash has increased action speed
- LNPA flame bullet power and range up
- LNPA cosmo breaker costs lesser PP
- LNPA sphere eraser power up and drains PP slower in use


Brb, exchanging 180 plei and 90 tor for orbit lau

[milranduil]

If they nerf weak bullet, ranger needs a heavy buff skill tree wise since rifle is the weakest r atk weapon in the game, if not. then rifle pa's will need a 500% power buff to make up for it.

thx for the laugh, i needed it.

[KazukiQZ]

Brb, exchanging 180 plei and 90 tor for orbit lau
Told ya. xD

[Kondibon]

I'm glad these changes are coming in the same update that's adding the new weapon pallets. It'll be nice to not need 4 weapon pallets for one weapon.

[Enforcer MKV]

Ranger:
- Launcher normal attack receives shorter JA timing between 1st/2nd shots and has slower fall timing in air
- ARcustomizedPA homing emission zero costs lesser PP
- LNPA concentrate one power up and costs lesser PP
- LNPA cracker bullet power and range up
- LNPA zero distance power and range up
- LNPA rodeo drive costs lesser PP
- LNPA crezy smash has increased action speed
- LNPA flame bullet power and range up
- LNPA cosmo breaker costs lesser PP
- LNPA sphere eraser power up and drains PP slower in use


Eh....eeeeeeh....still no WB nerf. Blegh. At least the rest of the stuff is nice.

[MightyHarken]

Eh....eeeeeeh....still no WB nerf. Blegh. At least the rest of the stuff is nice.

They can't remove wb without buffing range. Or at least buffing rifles to equal bows in r tk

[Kondibon]

They can't remove wb without buffing range. Or at least buffing rifles to equal bows in r tk
No one said anything about removing it, and anyone who thinks rifle is underpowered must not use the damn thing, because it's amazing right now. >_>

[sparab]

Without WB, rifle is rather weak before you can get satecannon and EA

[Kondibon]

Without WB, rifle is rather weak before you can get satecannon and EAThe problem with rifle isn't WB, it's the reliance on hitting weakpoints. If you were talking about buffing rifle damage to compensate for a nerf to WHA then I'd agree, but WB puts things well past the "way too strong" marker.

Besides, rifle has good PAs besides sat cannon and EA. I'm not even sure why "before you can get sat cannon and EA" is even relevant. They're more than good enough to use at lvl1 and no one cares about anything before SH (or even SH in most cases)

[Aine]

That's a problem with every ranged weapon. You either get great damage or shit damage, there's no middle ground. That would be fine if getting headshots was actually a matter of skill or aim, but it's more a matter of what PAs just happen to get sucked into the weakpoints of certain enemies.

If they don't want to rewrite the hit detection code completely then they need to nerf the fuck out of WHA because it's cancerous to balance.

[sparab]

Before satecannon/EA came out all rifle PA take more practice yet do less damage compare to most other weapons. Even WHA was like 20% before the WB nerf.
IMO if WB is to get a general nerf again they'd better make a skill to increase damage to non weak points

[Stormwalker]

Before satecannon/EA came out all rifle PA take more practice yet do less damage compare to most other weapons

At least one rifle PA that requires very little skill to use effectively has been significantly buffed since then (One Point).

Mind you, like others have said, I'm not in favor of REMOVING WB. I just think its damage multiplier should be nerfed. And Chain Trigger's, too. And then RA and GU should get other buffs to compensate. In GU's case, I'd prefer this come in the form of decent PA's to use for damage other than Satellite Aim. It gets very tedious spamming the same PA all the time, with the occasional Grim Barrage thrown in as a long-range gap closer.

Bullet Keep for TMG and Gunslash would be nice, too. Maybe if WB was nerfed down to a reasonable level they might actually consider that.

[sparab]

At least one rifle PA that requires very little skill to use effectively has been significantly buffed since then (One Point).

One point used to do below turret damage, shots much slower and cannot be roll cancelled. Only the most skilled Ra dare to use this in the heat of combat.
The likes of WB/CT/volg/banish are tricky things to balance but I am sure that most players can do a better job than sega's game designer.

[Stormwalker]

One point used to do below turret damage, shots much slower and cannot be roll cancelled. Only the most skilled Ra dare to use this in the heat of combat.
The likes of WB/CT/volg/banish are tricky things to balance but I am sure that most players can do a better job than sega's game designer.

I don't find One Point to be difficult to use in the heat of combat at all at this point. I find it to be very useful against certain fast-moving enemies because it basically auto-hits on lockable break points and weak points and I can move while firing.

Not that I stay on rifle any longer than I have to, because I'd really rather be killing with my TMG's, but sometimes I use the rifle to quickly break anything i need to break and apply another WB before switching. And sometimes there is no RA in the party and I end up stuck as the WB slave.

Nothing sucks the fun out of an EQ like being stuck as the WB slave as a GU/RA. Nothing.

[sparab]

Nothing sucks the fun out of an EQ like being stuck as the WB slave as a GU/RA. Nothing.

GuHu: screw GuRa I not your WB slave (Cal-mira IF)

[milranduil]

In GU's case, I'd prefer this come in the form of decent PA's to use for damage other than Satellite Aim. It gets very tedious spamming the same PA all the time, with the occasional Grim Barrage thrown in as a long-range gap closer.

There are better PAs to use most of the time... such as Shift Period, Elder Rebellion, Bullet Squal Type-0 and Heel Stab. If you're really spamming sat aim 95% of the time, you are playing Gu wrong.

[Stormwalker]

GuHu: screw GuRa I not your WB slave (Cal-mira IF)

I used to play GU/HU. But eventually I had to admit that I kill a whole lot faster as GU/RA.

This is partly because I intensely dislike Dead Approach, though (the sound it makes drives me nuts).

[Stormwalker]

There are better PAs to use most of the time... such as Shift Period, Elder Rebellion, Bullet Squal Type-0 and Heel Stab. If you're really spamming sat aim 95% of the time, you are playing Gu wrong.

I cannot think of a single situation where Elder Rebellion is better sustained DPS than Satellite Aim, outside of TA'ing in low-level areas where you can oneshot six or seven enemies with a single Elder Rebellion. And I do my TA's in SH because it's more fun. And in those rare cases where I actually need range (shooting off helicopter tail rotors in Tokyo comes to mind), the Rifle does it better because Weak Bullet. About the only time I ever use Elder Rebellion is if I have to finish a chain and can't get into melee range for some reason (and I try to avoid this if at all possible, because ER is vastly less damage than 4 x SA)

For mobbing, yes, Bullet Squall Type-0 has its uses... but that again is another case where you basically spam the same PA over and over again (the difference being you kick it off with Aerial Shooting instead of Grim Barrage or Front S-Roll). Also, in the XH zones (especially Tokyo) the enemies are usually too spread out to make effective use of it, it's faster to S-Roll or Grim Barrage from one enemy to the next and then kill them with Satellite Aim headshots (do bear in mind I solo and duo mostly, except for EQ's. I don't see the same spawn densities as people who play in full parties/MPA's a lot).

Also, spamming Bullet Squall is the single most boring way to kill enemies in this entire game. No, really, it is. I will grant that Bullet Squall Type-0 is very effective in some mobbing situations... but since I want to actually enjoy the game, I rarely use it outside of situations where absolute maximum efficiency is called for.

Heel Stab has uses, but I generally find Gravity Bomb -> jump -> SA kills faster in most of the cases I would use it. There are some zones where I use Heel Stab a fair amount, but more because I enjoy using it than for any real efficiency gain. A large percentage of Heel Stab's damage is striking, meaning no ZRA, ZRC, WHA, or Standing/Moving Snipe bonuses, and my Critical Strike Ranged ring doesn't function for that portion, either. I get all of those bonuses with Satellite Aim.

Shift Period is still terrible, full stop. Any situation where I could actually hit all the enemies for full damage with Shift Period, I can also hit them all for full damage with Satellite Aim. Or are you talking about fighting enemies so weak that the single long-range hit of Shift Period will kill them? Because in that case my Braver friend has already killed them all with Gurren-tessen before Shift Period finishes animating anyway.

And on bosses, it's pretty much all Satellite Aim all the time.

[Rekima]

Shift Period is still terrible, full stop.

Just sounds like you have 0 experience using it at all and all you want to do is complain because it's not as easy as spamming s-roll IF nowadays. It's a good PA since it's buff, especially now that it keeps standing snipe if timed properly.


on bosses, it's pretty much all Satellite Aim all the time.

If it wasn't this simple to rapidly output high DPS, you'd be complaining the class was too difficult compared to others to deal damage on bosses. If it involved using things like tech-arts and swapping out PAs like fighter does, it'd end up in a situation where Sat Aim spamming still does better in a lot of situations.

[hoangsea]

lol
i play Gu/Fi :-?

[Sriracha X]

I've played GU/RA for the vast majority of time on my character, and I agree with Stormwalker. There aren't a lot of situations where you would want to use a PA that's not Satellite Aim for damage.

I mean, let's look at what makes Satellite Aim good for almost any situation a Gunner would find themselves in:

-Great damage
-Fast execution (in the air, where a Gunner should be anyways)
=As a result, great for finishing chains
-Cheap PP cost
-Can take advantage of things such as ZRA, ZRC, SS, etc.
-Has light AoE properties, allowing it to mob clustered enemies
-Looks cool

These points are what makes Satellite Aim such a solid PA. Because of things like Dead Approach, Front S-Roll, and Grim Barrage, there is almost no reason for you to not close the distance to blast things in the face. Gravity Bomb and Reverse Tap can suck up trash mobs so you can still use SA in place of Bullet Squall or Shift Period and do more DPS.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't use other PAs - it's just that SA just handles a lot of things. I still regularly use these PAs for these reasons:

Aerial Shooting
-Get in the air

Bullet Squall (crafted; max gear)
-Safe, consistent damage on a mobile target or slightly clustered mob
-Style points

Dead Approach
-Gap closer/escape tool (with added bonus of guard frames!)

Elder Rebellion
-Do decent damage while holding a stationary position in the air for a set up
-Do decent damage from a safe distance
-Kill trash mobs quick on SH
-Emergency chain finisher if I can't close distance in time

Grim Barrage
-Long distance gap closer/escape tool
-Fast travelling especially in the air

Reverse Tap
-Sucking up mobs (with guard frames!)

Shift Period
-Kill trash mobs on SH up close and at respectable distance
-Do decent damage on a slightly clustered mob and take out trash at a distance (XH)

The other PAs...just aren't good these days (RIP Infinity Fire and Messiah Time especially). They really need some love.

But anyways, SA is just a very solid PA that just does anything a Gunner wants it to do. The DPS of other PAs simply just don't come close to it, hence why we spam it so much. I remember seeing the data SEGA collected on PA use some time ago and, with no big surprise, SA topped the TMG section. Other PAs are still good...it's just you can use SA most of the time in their place.

[Achelousaurus]

MT being not very good anymore is sad. I never did much gunner but not being able to use a move taken directly from a John Woo movie hurts.

[TaigaUC]

When I complained about Gunner feeling weak, I was going from how it feels when fighting PD.
Going by watching damage meter results for myself and others, it seems like Gunner DPS is not great, until Chain Trigger, which suddenly puts them on top.
What I meant was it'd be nice if there was another option to do sustained DPS.
I know that's probably difficult because anything else they add can simply be used with Chain Trigger.

I just feel like it's not very satisfying to be stuck with what feels like weak attacks until Chain Trigger cools down.
When I say "feels" weak, I think it's partly because Sat Aim hits twice (ie. if compared to Backhand Smash, it'd look like half the damage value).
That makes it feel/look like my damage output (outside of Chain Trigger) is less, compared to when I'm playing Fighter.
Chain Trigger immediately feels like it makes a massive difference. It's very easy to tell. Stuff breaks.
When I'm not using Chain Trigger, it feels like stuff doesn't break. And that's frustrating.

I compare with Fighter because it personally feels more satisfying.
As in, it often feels like I'm constantly doing big damage. When I hit stuff using Knuckles, stuff breaks.
I'm probably a little biased though, because my Twin Machineguns are Rasahadis ~30 element and Saiki set with ~80 RATK per piece.
For comparison, my Ideal Knuckles are 60 element ~90 SATK, and my Ideal unit set uses default affixes (for now).

Another likely reason Gu/Ra feels weak is that Weak Hit related skills aren't active on certain boss weak points that aren't considered "weak points".
I'm sure that kills damage output.
Maybe I should be using Gu/Hu in those situations? I haven't used Gu/Hu much.

My Gunner/Ranger setup is:
1. Shift Period, Reverse Tap, Shift Period (for mobbing)
2. Aerial Shooting, Bullet Squall Type 0 x2 (for raining death from the sky, or long battle DPS)
3. Grim Barrage, Elder Rebellion x2 (to close distance, or for long range/hit weak point precisely)
4. Satellite Aim x3 (for close range burst DPS)
5. Rifle with Satellite Cannon, One Point and End Attract (for Weak Bullet and bossing)
6. Gunslash with whatever.

When I'm mobbing, head shots with Shift Period and Bullet Squall feel very satisfying.
Mobs die very quickly to those. Especially Kuronian enemies.
But outside of those situations, and Chain Trigger (of course), I feel weak.

Satellite Aim's hitbox is kinda wonky. Sometimes it looks like it should hit a weak point but does not.
It feels great IF you manage to reliably hit the enemy's head. You know, it has that unique hit sound.
In the cases where it can't hit reliably, I use something more precise, like Elder Rebellion, maybe Bullet Squall.
I don't know if Bullet Squall DPS is better than Sat Aim DPS over a long period. I'd assume it is.

Haven't figured out where to fit Heel Stab yet.
I used to use it for hitting lock-onable weak points from long distance.
No idea how it compares to other attacks in terms of DPS, especially now that there's the anti-charge skill.
I got the anti-charge skill but haven't really messed with it much.

I used to use Messiah Time for invincibility and burst damage, but it doesn't seem necessary anymore.
Last time I tried it, Infinity Fire was still garbage.
I know some people who quit Gunner because they didn't like how medium-range playstyle with Infinity Fire was rendered ineffective.
They really should have fleshed out Gunner's mid-range playability more.
Yes, I know there's Rifle for long/mid-range. But some people want to use the Twin Machineguns.

For the record, when Sat Aim started to feel weak, I began to question whether I was playing Gunner correctly.
I looked up Selphea's Gunner guide, and that also says Sat Aim is the main DPS attack.
So... it seems I'm not really playing incorrectly. Hence my hoping SEGA would somehow make Gunner playstyle a little more interesting.
But... looking at the state of PSO2 right now, and the direction it's heading...
They certainly have a lot more other pressing issues at hand.

[Rekima]

Hence my hoping SEGA would somehow make Gunner playstyle a little more interesting.

Interesting in what way? Pretty sure this game is 'balanced' around spamming strongest thing if you plan to be 'efficient'. It isn't just Gunners that suffer from a stale play-style, spamming Ragrants until your compound charges or hitting BHS repeatedly isn't particularly interesting either.

As for Heel Stab, I don't use it often because the striking part loses out without HU sub, the follow-up is a fast gear builder though. I don't have any issues with damage on XH. With Elder Rebellion, Shift Period or Sat Aim, but I use Austere TMGs. (Without WB/CT it's still strong on headshots and weakspots).

A 'fix' for Sat Aim having a dodgy hitbox is to use TPS, especially since they changed it allowing you to aim better with it. :-)

[Stormwalker]

Just sounds like you have 0 experience using it at all and all you want to do is complain because it's not as easy as spamming s-roll IF nowadays. It's a good PA since it's buff, especially now that it keeps standing snipe if timed properly.



If it wasn't this simple to rapidly output high DPS, you'd be complaining the class was too difficult compared to others to deal damage on bosses. If it involved using things like tech-arts and swapping out PAs like fighter does, it'd end up in a situation where Sat Aim spamming still does better in a lot of situations.

No, Shift Period is not a good PA. It's DPS is still poor, even with the sped up animation, especially against anything you don't catch in the inner shell. And the inner shell is no bigger than Satellite Aim's AoE area, and Satellite Aim is likely to score headshots.

Shift Period's DPS (per JP wiki): 546. That's assuming you get all the hits, by the way, and only the stuff very close to you actually takes all the hits. That's still terrible. In fact, if it weren't for all the bonuses to ranged damage, Reverse Tap would actually do better DPS than Shift Period (659 vs. 546) and it costs 2/3 the PP!

Satellite Aim's DPS (in air): 868. And its AoE isn't really any smaller than Shift Period's inner shell is - and I don't have to worry about the enemy moving while Satellite Aim is animating!

Why would I use a 30 PP photon art to kill a pack of mobs when I can use a 20 PP photon art to kill the same pack of mobs faster? Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

But I suspect you're thinking of killing spawns of weak mobs in SH. Oh, sure, Shift Period will do that just fine. Except that, again, the friend I usually duo with will kill that same pack of mobs a whole lot faster with Gurren-tessen or Kanran-kikyou, so we're much better off if I engage the heavies (with Satellite Aim) and let him clean up the small fry.

And actually, you know, I play other classes. One of the classes I play a lot is Fighter. And I can tell you, Fighter has a lot more choice in effective PA's in XH than Gunner does. And those choices just got better with the buffs to certain Twin Dagger PA's.

Right now, the only TMG PA's worth using for GU/RA (not counting extremely circumstantial uses) in Extra Hard are Satellite Aim and Bullet Squall Type-0. And since I don't like Bullet Squall, I usually end up using Satellite Aim most of the time when using TMG's.

[Zorak000]

but how do you AoE with satellite aim

[sparab]

but how do you AoE with satellite aim

zondeel when GuTe was a thing

[cheapgunner]

Shift period is fantastic. Grim barrage toward a group of enemies and SP in their face, or Heel Stab them for AoE. Sat Aim to me should be single target stuff like bosses and for chain finishers. Hell Stab, Shift Period, and Reverse Tap all have their uses in a Gu's arsenal.

[Xaelouse]

If you're subbing RA then you should be using gravity bomb nearly all the time which lets you use any PA you feel like using

[Strobo_Lemon]

Shift Period headshots, and it's great because the explosion has range.

It's not fast since it takes time to execute, but when you have mobs around you, its great.

If it's a single enemy, I use SA. If there are mobs around me, I use SP.

[toragyo]

Better stop using Bullet Squall Type-0 and Grim Barrage then because they do less DPS than Shift Period :wacko:

It's funny how you mention Twin Dagger because Knuckle and Twin Dagger are incredibly irrelevant for mobbing now compared to Double Saber with the new ring.

On topic: These changes look nice. If Strike Gust gets reduced to a .5s charge time then boots will be a ton better. Sphere Eraser would be cool if it's comparable to End Attract or SatCan but I don't think they will go that far because of the range it has.

[MightyHarken]

No one said anything about removing it, and anyone who thinks rifle is underpowered must not use the damn thing, because it's amazing right now. >_>

You must not be a very good player to think rifle's damage is good without wb. Or are you just talking about SH mode? did you know that rifle's atk is one of the weakest weapons in the game?, not only this but if you're not hitting weak points, you suck even more. So yeah, if they remove/nerf WB, they need to buff rifle's r atk, and buff its photon arts power by 200-300%.

[MightyHarken]

Or add a sort of banish arrow like PA to rifle. that way we can double our damage wherever we're hitting.

[MightyHarken]

Another thing to take in mind, is how a ranger must stand still to keep a 30% bonus, making ranger a static class, so here's another thing that completely destroys ranger, if you're moving to evade attacks and in the heat of combat you fail to hit weak points, you got 0% (5% if you got moving snipe) damage boost

[milranduil]

You must not be a very good player to think rifle's damage is good without wb. Or are you just talking about SH mode? did you know that rifle's atk is one of the weakest weapons in the game?, not only this but if you're not hitting weak points, you suck even more. So yeah, if they remove/nerf WB, they need to buff rifle's r atk, and buff its photon arts power by 200-300%.

you are actually the most ignorant player i've seen here in a while. cg.

and for the record, standing snipe is 32.25%, not 30%.

[toragyo]

You must not be a very good player to think rifle's damage is good without wb. Or are you just talking about SH mode? did you know that rifle's atk is one of the weakest weapons in the game?, not only this but if you're not hitting weak points, you suck even more. So yeah, if they remove/nerf WB, they need to buff rifle's r atk, and buff its photon arts power by 200-300%.

Holy hell, do you try to use Weak Bullet on every single mob or something? Shoot WB 4 times and then lie down on the floor while getting rammed?

RA has one of the highest damage modifiers total in the game and you are saying that Rifle doesn't do enough damage? I'd understand if you were complaining about them not having enough damage while doing body shots or possibly not having something comparable to charged Divine Launcher but oh man.

And for the record, Rifle is right in the middle in terms of weapon atk compared to the other ones.


you are actually the most ignorant player i've seen here in a while. cg.

and for the record, standing snipe is 32.25%, not 30%.

+1

I'm amazed.

[Selphea]

Rifle being weak without WB is somewhat true if talking about hitting non-weak, since one of WB's properties is turning a non-weak point into a weak point.

It's just that practically every enemy has a readily accessible weak point except some bosses like Double and PD.

[Tunga]

The game doesn't state the true value of most multipliers. Can't blame the guy for that.

[Selphea]

When I complained about Gunner feeling weak, I was going from how it feels when fighting PD.

I think pub PD is one of the worst places to take a Gu/Ra to, due to boss design.

Double just spins forever, it's hard to tell which ball is going to have WB (if at all) and the tongue sticking out stagger needs a gap close so there usually isn't enough time to get a good Chain going.

PD itself doesn't really let you Chain, except for the phase change and the last stagger, and again it's hard to tell which part is going to have WB.

I've heard of premade with stacked Gunners to build high Chains but that's premade.

[黒雪Yacchi]

I honestly think they need to do a complete rework of the main R-atk classes (Ranger and Gunner). The other "pure" attack classes (Fi/Hu (Hu/Fi for those that actually use it) and Fo/Te) are powerful by the time you reach SH, while Ranger and Gunner just feel meh. (This is just my personal experience)

[Evangelion X.XX]

Honestly, Ranger is really strong enough, really good, as it is already.

That said, I can't wait for the launcher buffs, particularly Sphere Eraser.

[Selphea]

Yea Ranger is plenty strong, just technical. Gunslashing on mobs makes it less technical though.

Gunner is like Bouncer and Braver - gets more damage from subclass than main, so needs to the subclass in order early.

Fi, Hu, Fo all have good passives from the main class itself so they don't have that problem.

[Rekima]

Another thing to take in mind, is how a ranger must stand still to keep a 30% bonus, making ranger a static class, so here's another thing that completely destroys ranger, if you're moving to evade attacks and in the heat of combat you fail to hit weak points, you got 0% (5% if you got moving snipe) damage boost

It only takes like 1JA (or a quick Sneak Shooter if WB is loaded) to regain Standing Snipe after moving, though I doubt you know that considering you're calling Rifle of all weapons 'weak'. Of which you should be doing anyway with a HU sub to proc Fury Combo.

[Kondibon]

did you know that rifle's atk is one of the weakest weapons in the game?,So? Comparing atk between weapons of different categories is pointless since they don't even share the same attack and PA multipliers, and that's not even taking into account the whole... they have different PAs thing. If the atk was the only important thing then bows would be the best r-atk weapon for everything. >_>


not only this but if you're not hitting weak points, you suck even more.I never said anything about that. The multiplier on WHA is way too centralized. I feel the same way about elemental masteries. It's not about whether I can or not, it's about not having any other options.


Another thing to take in mind, is how a ranger must stand still to keep a 30% bonus, making ranger a static class, so here's another thing that completely destroys ranger, if you're moving to evade attacks and in the heat of combat you fail to hit weak points, you got 0% (5% if you got moving snipe) damage boost

For the record, this is my whole point. I don't even see why you're trying to disagree with me.

[Lorne]

- Skill wand lovers will keep effect when restart a quest in campship

Pls Sega, don't forget Wand Gear Element. ._.

[MightyHarken]

It only takes like 1JA (or a quick Sneak Shooter if WB is loaded) to regain Standing Snipe after moving, though I doubt you know that considering you're calling Rifle of all weapons 'weak'. Of which you should be doing anyway with a HU sub to proc Fury Combo.

It takes 2JA from rifle, since an attack takes around .70 seconds to complete, therefore if you've been doing just 1JA to gain the SS bonus, you've been doing it wrong.

"Use a sneak shooter to gain the SS" wow you're amazing, you're really going to use a sneak shooter when being followed close by 4-5 goldrhadas or any monster from XH+? I can tell you either have never played the class or you've only reached SH mode. fuckoutta'here kid.

As far as what I know, I'm sure I know 10 times more than what you do, also I'm not complaining on the ranger itself, I'm complaining against the people who want WB removed, learn to read son. I've been playing ranger probably before you even heard about this game so don't give me that shit lol.

[Naska]

15% bonus from Standing Snipe 1 and 2.
Meaning 1.15 x 1.15 = 1.3225
So 32.25% bonus. LEARN TO MATH.

[sparab]

"Use a sneak shooter to gain the SS" wow you're amazing, you're really going to use a sneak shooter when being followed close by 4-5 goldrhadas or any monster from XH+? I can tell you either have never played the class or you've only reached SH mode. fuckoutta'here kid.

Sneak shooter is the 2nd fastest rifle PA at the moment, and you can still get standing snipe by roll shot(wait)>sneak(wait)>JA
And seriously, just use launcher for mobbing

[MightyHarken]

Sneak shooter is the 2nd fastest rifle PA at the moment, and you can still get standing snipe by roll shot(wait)>sneak(wait)>JA
And seriously, just use launcher for mobbing

Captain Obvious to the rescue!, seriously though, still uncalled for to remove WB, and like I said before, if they remove WB they better buff rangers in general. Or better yet. Make WB work only for ranger and that would fix everyone's concern.

[Rekima]

As far as what I know, I'm sure I know 10 times more than what you do, also I'm not complaining on the ranger itself, I'm complaining against the people who want WB removed, learn to read son. I've been playing ranger probably before you even heard about this game so don't give me that shit lol.

Put down your Frozen Shooter buddy and stop being an internet warrior, nobody cares if you've been around longer or whatever, but when you come out with outright stupid claims, (lol rifle is so weak, you have to aim it's so hard) expect people to come and correct you.

As for knowing more than me, I doubt it considering you haven't said anything informative to back it up, instead you've gotten mad and started calling me 'kid' and trying to outdo me with your 'experience'.

You're incredibly ignorant, but please enlighten me on how to correctly play since you know so much. Clearly I've been contributing to high-level MPAs wrong all this time :-)

[PrinceyPai]

Stop this unnecessary amount of cancer responses. You all can debate without having to act immature.

On topic: I see gunner is.....still gunner. Hopefully there will be another batch of rebalances coming soon after since obviously some weapons/classes were left untouched

[Rekima]

I wouldn't say things were left untouched, a number of weapons/classes had changes made to them earlier already, Including Braver/Gunner/Ranger/Force.

[PrinceyPai]

Well that's a bit disappointing to hear. Dual blade bouncer tree still feels underwhelming, gunner still has a heavy chain trigger reliance and Guren is still...too non-situational and such.

[Rekima]

Well that's a bit disappointing to hear. Dual blade bouncer tree still feels underwhelming, gunner still has a heavy chain trigger reliance and Guren is still...too non-situational and such.

Bouncer tree is just sad, seeing the Summoner tree too makes me think that they just simply ran out of ideas for skill trees. As for Bouncer PAs... I guess they'll happen after we get PA Crafts again.

So basically never

[MightyHarken]

Have you guys tried playing gu/ra instead of gu/hu? you get to use launchers and zero distance is getting a buff, so that could very well be a buff for gunners as well.

[MightyHarken]

there's a lot from ranger skill tree to pick from to be better, for example moving snipe 5% dam weak hit 70% dam, killing bonus, first hit 20% dam (solo mobbing) r atk boost 1 & 2, weak bullet, etc. Just my opinion, I'm not good at gunner reall

[RealKillaK]

GuRa launcher sounds as great as BrHu Wired lance because wow wired lance getting buffs.

[Xaelouse]

What does Gunner need to be buffed anyway? Dont say by making it less emphasized on chain because they were adamant about stomping out that gameplay years ago.

[sparab]

Maybe the launcher PA will get 1.5x damage buff like one point and Gu will ditch shift period

Gu and Brkatana already got major buff at the PD patch. That's why sega decided to skip them this time.

[Sriracha X]

What does Gunner need to be buffed anyway? Dont say by making it less emphasized on chain because they were adamant about stomping out that gameplay years ago.

Some ideas I could think of right now...

Aerial Advance could be changed to give a damage boost for just being in the air, instead of applying to airborne enemies.

The S-Roll skills could be revisited to make them worth taking without making GU the S-Roll warrior that it was back in the Ep2 days.

The striking portions of Reverse Tap, Dead Approach, Heel Stab, etc. to have the Zero Range skills apply to them (and have the damage be calculated from R-ATK perhaps).

Messiah Time and Infinity Fire could use buffs to bring them back in the game. I don't know how besides boosting their damage.

[Tunga]

Year 12,104,104,801 still no new PA crafts.

[MightyHarken]

GuRa launcher sounds as great as BrHu Wired lance because wow wired lance getting buffs.

I disagree with your reference because:
1. wired lance is an S ATK weapon
2. launcher has zero distance which triggers close range adv
3. launcher scales with r atk.
4. cosmos breaker is another close gap damaging skill.

[Poyonche]

Year 12,104,104,801 still no new PA crafts.

We are still waiting for new Jet boots PA. :(

[PrinceyPai]

I disagree with your reference because:



His point was that just because a subclass weapon got buffed, doesn't mean the main class got buffed, because not every class will find use in subclass weapons. Braver will find little use to use wired lance even after the buff because of main class/certain weapon skills only. same goes for Gunner/Ranger. as much as launcher can help gunner with mobbing/bossing they will still find little use for it when TMG's are more mobile, but more importantly launcher can't make use of TMG/main class only skills like TMG mastery and showtime's buff ETC.
The way this game works makes it so that any use of subclass weapons are quite suboptimal. main classes that use subclass weapons are for situational purposes such as jet boots to double jump in the air(helps greatly in magatsu), or for fast traveling like using guren with katana.

so a better wording would of been saying that Gunner could potentially benefit from the launcher buff because it would help mobbing/bossing over TMG. but it won't because main class skills and weapon only skills exist in this game

[Stormwalker]

When I complained about Gunner feeling weak, I was going from how it feels when fighting PD.
Going by watching damage meter results for myself and others, it seems like Gunner DPS is not great, until Chain Trigger, which suddenly puts them on top.
What I meant was it'd be nice if there was another option to do sustained DPS.
I know that's probably difficult because anything else they add can simply be used with Chain Trigger.

I just feel like it's not very satisfying to be stuck with what feels like weak attacks until Chain Trigger cools down.
When I say "feels" weak, I think it's partly because Sat Aim hits twice (ie. if compared to Backhand Smash, it'd look like half the damage value).
That makes it feel/look like my damage output (outside of Chain Trigger) is less, compared to when I'm playing Fighter.
Chain Trigger immediately feels like it makes a massive difference. It's very easy to tell. Stuff breaks.
When I'm not using Chain Trigger, it feels like stuff doesn't break. And that's frustrating.

I compare with Fighter because it personally feels more satisfying.
As in, it often feels like I'm constantly doing big damage. When I hit stuff using Knuckles, stuff breaks.
I'm probably a little biased though, because my Twin Machineguns are Rasahadis ~30 element and Saiki set with ~80 RATK per piece.
For comparison, my Ideal Knuckles are 60 element ~90 SATK, and my Ideal unit set uses default affixes (for now).

Another likely reason Gu/Ra feels weak is that Weak Hit related skills aren't active on certain boss weak points that aren't considered "weak points".
I'm sure that kills damage output.
Maybe I should be using Gu/Hu in those situations? I haven't used Gu/Hu much.

My Gunner/Ranger setup is:
1. Shift Period, Reverse Tap, Shift Period (for mobbing)
2. Aerial Shooting, Bullet Squall Type 0 x2 (for raining death from the sky, or long battle DPS)
3. Grim Barrage, Elder Rebellion x2 (to close distance, or for long range/hit weak point precisely)
4. Satellite Aim x3 (for close range burst DPS)
5. Rifle with Satellite Cannon, One Point and End Attract (for Weak Bullet and bossing)
6. Gunslash with whatever.

When I'm mobbing, head shots with Shift Period and Bullet Squall feel very satisfying.
Mobs die very quickly to those. Especially Kuronian enemies.
But outside of those situations, and Chain Trigger (of course), I feel weak.

Satellite Aim's hitbox is kinda wonky. Sometimes it looks like it should hit a weak point but does not.
It feels great IF you manage to reliably hit the enemy's head. You know, it has that unique hit sound.
In the cases where it can't hit reliably, I use something more precise, like Elder Rebellion, maybe Bullet Squall.
I don't know if Bullet Squall DPS is better than Sat Aim DPS over a long period. I'd assume it is.

Haven't figured out where to fit Heel Stab yet.
I used to use it for hitting lock-onable weak points from long distance.
No idea how it compares to other attacks in terms of DPS, especially now that there's the anti-charge skill.
I got the anti-charge skill but haven't really messed with it much.

I used to use Messiah Time for invincibility and burst damage, but it doesn't seem necessary anymore.
Last time I tried it, Infinity Fire was still garbage.
I know some people who quit Gunner because they didn't like how medium-range playstyle with Infinity Fire was rendered ineffective.
They really should have fleshed out Gunner's mid-range playability more.
Yes, I know there's Rifle for long/mid-range. But some people want to use the Twin Machineguns.

For the record, when Sat Aim started to feel weak, I began to question whether I was playing Gunner correctly.
I looked up Selphea's Gunner guide, and that also says Sat Aim is the main DPS attack.
So... it seems I'm not really playing incorrectly. Hence my hoping SEGA would somehow make Gunner playstyle a little more interesting.
But... looking at the state of PSO2 right now, and the direction it's heading...
They certainly have a lot more other pressing issues at hand.

This is kinda where I was going, too.

Basically, all of Gunner's damage is bound up in Chain Trigger, and when Chain Trigger is unavailable, your DPS is rather anemic.

Satellite Aim still offers pretty solid single-target and small-AoE DPS. Its hitbox is a little tricky (mostly in the vertical sense - it's different on the ground and in the air), and you have to be careful about positioning, especially with knocked-down enemies, to be sure you get your headshots. I've found Front S-Roll to be very beneficial here.

In Super Hard, Shift Period feels very powerful, but that's because in Super Hard mobs have crap all for HP and die to any little thing you hit them with. Personally, when I am in Super Hard, I tend to choose my PA's for fun value rather than efficiency because Super Hard simply isn't hard enough to demand efficiency. So typically, my mobbing combo in SH is Heel Stab -> Reverse Tap -> Satellite Aim or Grim Barrage -> Reverse Tap -> Shift Period, depending on the zone and how dense the mobs are).

One thing I should have noted earlier is that Shift Period is quite good in Super Hard AQ's because of the much denser spawns which favor its mechanics.

In Extra Hard, however, Shift Period simply doesn't do enough damage to justify its animation time. This is especially true in Tokyo when the enemies spread out so much that most of them will only be hit once by it. It's still very deadly against enemies that are close in and take all the hits... but so is Satellite Aim, which is faster, costs less PP, and easier to position to be SURE you get the headshot. Also, Satellite Aim's launch has some defensive value against any attack that doesn't have super armor - with Shift Period, you either get hit due to the long animation, or you S-Roll cancel and give up a very large chunk of the damage you would have caused.

I dislike Bullet Squall Type-0 because I dislike its animation, but when fighting ground-based enemies who are vulnerable to headshots it offers pretty solid damage with extreme safety (this is its major advantage, more than its damge - enemies that don't fly or have ranged attacks can often be killed with complete impunity)

I don't find Messiah Time to be useful. Oh, it can do decent damage with a ton of invlunerability, but I find committing myself to an animation that long (and which moves you as far as MT does) has more tactical disadvantages than advantages.

Elder Rebellion is the best ranged PA avaialble to TMG. If I have to finish a chain and can't close to melee range, it's what I will use, and for that reason it's always on my palette. That said, in most non-Chain Trigger situations when I need long-range damage, I find that I am better off using my rifle (especially if WB is available).

Infinity Fire truly is garbage and I shouldn't call other PA's garbage because that would be lumping them in with Infinity Fire, and they don't deserve that. So on that count, I apologize to the other PA's for calling them garbage previously.

Grim Barrage is an excellent gap closer, and I'll be getting a LOT more use out of it with the new control scheme where I don't have to compromise my chain finishes to keep it on my palette (honestly, I probably shouldn't complain about the lack of attention to GU in the balance changes, simply because the new control scheme is going to be a huge buff for me all by itself). Its damage is nothing to write home about, but it isn't terrible; for a PA mostly employed for its utility, I'm good with that.

Dead Approach, you are the reason I don't sub HU anymore. Because I hate you, and I don't want to have to spam you all the time to do decent damage.

Reverse Tap - one of my favorite PA's since I first started playing Gunner, but I can't use it when I'm actually trying to be efficient because its damage is meh (mostly due to being striking damage) and its area of effect is poor. It still features very prominently in my "messing around in Super Hard" PA sets, as noted above, because it's a whole lot of fun to use (also, it has more utility in SH as a setup for Shift Period... though Gravity Bomb does that better).

Aerial Shooting is good for height gain, and thus makes a good setup for Bullet Squall Type-0. That's about all the use I have for it, aside from Magatsu which I almost never actually run.

Heel Stab is a decent ground-based gap closer which has great damage for a utility PA, but not really great damage for a damage PA. TMG Arts S-Charge helps out with the DPS here a bit if you spent the one point (I did), but the fact that a large percentage of this PA's damage is striking hurts the output considerably. When charged, the shots improve the DPS considerably, though it can't benefit from Standing Snipe and much of its AoE area is outside the range of ZRA and ZRC. It's one of the more fun Gunner PA's to use, and I make extensive use of it in Super Hard. In Extra Hard, I generally find it's better to just use Forward S-Roll into Satellite Aim in most cases.

And, finally, Satellite Aim. The best "raw damage" PA that GU/RA has. It's fast (in the air - don't bother using it on the ground in most cases), it does good damage on its own, and with WB and Chain Trigger it lets me stack up 200k+ hits in rapid succession. The recent upgrade that enables you to pivot in the air while using it was a HUGE improvement, and is one of the reasons I can get good mileage out of it now even while mobbing. Having 150 PP before Showtime Star means I can fire off a whole lot of these while holding on to that Standing Snipe bonus, too, which is very nice for certain bosses which can be immobilized (the T-15 Tank comes immediately to mind). It juggles, which as previously noted offers some defensive benefit. Also, it's S-Roll cancellable after the first hit. It even has a great sound effect.

The best thing about Satellite Aim, though, is that it can benefit from pretty much every damage bonus Gu/Ra offers all at once, by executing it at very close range, in the air, and firing three or more in succession.

What's not to like about Satellite Aim? Well, a few things. It's finicky about positioning, for one. Front S-Roll helps a lot with that, though, since you can use it to fine-tune your position in the air. This is especially important when trying to headshot a downed enemy. Occasionally the juggle will take an enemy out of headshot alignment before the second hit... that's really a matter of positioning, also. Its AoE is small, but the only AoE Gunner has that ISN'T is Shift Period (and its damage falls off quickly outside of a rather small core area).

The biggest thing to not like about Satellite Aim, though, is that it gets boring after a while. It'd be nice if some of the more "fun" Gunner PA's (Heel Stab, Reverse Tap, Shift Period) were more worth using in Extra Hard. The problem is that the amount of HP mobs have in XH makes it hard to kill with those PA's, so I end up falling back on Rifle PA's + Weak Bullet for long range scenarios and Satellite Aim for close range scenarios.

Admittedly, my perspective is probably somewhat skewed by two factors:

1). I frequently solo. This means that my AoE doesn't get the benefit of being stacked on top of other people's AoE to kill things. It's frequently faster for me to kill three XH enemies individually with a fast PA (Satellite Aim) than it is to use a slow AoE twice or more to kill all three at once. Not to mention it exposes me to less likelihood of being hit.

This becomes even more true in Tokyo because the spawns are often so spread out that even Shift Period will not hit them all (and so mobile that they will move out of the AoE before it finishes animating), whereas using Grim Barrage -> Satellite Aim will allow me to move between targets and mop them up rather quickly.

2). When I'm not soloing, I'm usually in a duo with a Braver. Being constantly exposed to the massively overpowered Gurren-tessen doesn't really help one feel good about the strength of one's own AoE PA's. It's extremely apparent as a Gu/Ra when duoing with a Braver that you're better off just engaging the heavies and let the Braver mop up the small fry (which it will do very quickly).

The fact that I've been leveling Braver myself on Alessandra (for the level 75 bonus, of course) lately probably doesn't help, either, because nothing makes your other classes feel bad at mobbing like playing a Braver and mowing down entire spawns in seconds with Gurren-tessen.

[sparab]

Minor changes:

- Fighter skill crazy heart PP regain+ now applies to pet normal attack
- Button smash PA can also be triggered by press&hold an empty palate space
- While casting NaZonde, press palate switch button switches your palate
- Perfect keeper rings now show how much HP is needed for their effects
- Just guard PA rings now have just guard invincible frame
- Maron/Melon curse is easier to hit
- AIS machine gun has increased range

-------------------------------

- Pet lab can now squeeze your pets back into their eggs. Pets level/parameter will remain but all candies will be removed

[ArcaneTechs]

Minor changes:
- Perfect keeper rings now show how much HP is needed for their effects
- Just guard PA rings now have just guard invincible frame
- AIS machine gun has increased range
nifty

[SteveCZ]

- Pet lab can now squeeze your pets back into their eggs. Pets level/parameter will remain but all candies will be removed

Removed as in removed to our inventory or gone forever/deleted?

[Aine]

Gone forever unless you remove them with a candy remover first (which costs AC items).

[SilenWhisper]

Still no Technique buffs.

[sparab]

Still takes ages to draw a launcher but attack interval is much shorter.
Standing snipe applies after 2 shots in air.
Rodeo drive 30>25, Cosmo 45>40
Flame bullet got 50% buff, cracker got 70%, eraser 10% and fires longer than AIS blaster (2/3 cost as before?