Discussion/Debate: Selling items on Ebay.

[Ambrai]

Ebay.

It's a center for trade of many different types of merchandise. As of 3 years ago, a different type of merchandise started appearing.

Items from online games.

A huge serge in activity followed. Everquest ebayers were making hundreds of thousands of dollars every few months. The highest ebayer made over $440,000 in selling in game items of UO and EQ.

Now ebay hits home here on PSO. Players are selling items on ebay and making decent money from it. Most consumers are uninformed customers as 90% of the auctions you see are people selling the same set over and over again via duping.

Ebayers luckly dont affect the PSO community as they did in other online games like Everquest and UO. Here the value of an item isn't as great and you dont need groups to find these items.

On this note, what are your thoughts of the ebaying that is currently going on in the PSO community?


P.S. Lets have an intelligent debate with NO flames.

[Neojin]

I know I have a 10 foot pole here somewhere...

Wheres my can opener theres a can of worms to be opened.

[Neifirst]

I have to say that I really disagree with the selling of PSO items on eBay on a gaming morality level.

I've seen the listings. MAGs on level 999. These things are tweaked and duped. It's bad enough that dupers pass out rares without a thought all over Ragol, but to make money off of it (*shiver*)!

I don't have a problem with selling video game items on eBay. And I wouldn't have a problem with PSO items... if I knew they were legitimately discovered items and not dupes. Since there's really no way to distinguish, I say this is wrong.

But, hey, if you want to spend $20 on a duped Stag Cutlery that I can get from probably half the players in PSO just by asking, then you deserve to be $20 poorer.

[Azriel]

It's my belief that people who sell stuff on ebay from online games are the worst kind of scum. They are making a profit off of a game that they didn't make. Therefore are breaking the law in my opinion. Plus, it's really low to sell a PSO weapon then dupe it and sell it to someone else. I think these people sould be found and arrested.

[Seutekh]

*searches for asbestos shield*

I've often been accused of being a Social Darwinist. You're all about to see why.

Quite frankly, although I personally find the idea of selling game items on E-bay rediculous... Let them have their fun.

The whole idea behind E-bay itself is that the consumers pay only what they're willing to. If there's a mentally deficient gameplayer out there with $100 to blow on a double saber, let him. Better he puts it in the hands of someone who (as unscrupulous as they may be) has the sense to spend that $100 on something other than random snippets of code.

Sure, it's a horrible way to think about it--we should be protecting these pitiful creatures fdrom their own hopeless abject stupidity--but seriously, why bother? Is it better they buy a new drool cup?

On the other hand, perhaps the buyer is someone who's reasonably well off. They're willing to pay that cash for the code simply because they have it to spend, and its a bit easier to maintain that double saber than it would be to keep up the new yacht.

Again, I see no problem. They're taking the money out of their pockets and putting it into someone else's who doubtless is not as financially secure.

Sell it all. Sell your items. Sell your character and your Dreamcast. I don't care. In the end, you're simply taking the money from the rich and stupid, and supporting the economy by doing it.

Yer my hero!

P.S. Who wants to buy a completely legit Stag Cutlery for $6000 US Dollars?

[Neojin]

Ambrai X`Viento: its messed up but abit ago a guy did make 440k on ebay in one month. isnt that insane?

Neotyre: yeah i supose, really makes you wonder about society...were we would allow people to keep makeing these lamers money

Ambrai X`Viento: I just think its sad when a guy makes a statement that he just spent 7000 on ebay for EQ items and he hopes his wife doesnt find out.

Neotyre: I supose its like a drug dealer...at first he just needs to make some quick money, but he sees how easy and how much money he makes and it becomes an adiction to selling to the junkies, but sooner or later they become adicts themselves falling pray to their own doings

Ambrai X`Viento: aye like the ebay/farmers who would train people in guk cuz and I quote 'Out of my way bitch, I need to make this months rent'

Neotyre: OK but wait dude...technicaly FARMING doesnt hurt us right, because it didnt take a whole group to acquire the items, is that NOT what you said earlier

Ambrai X`Viento: you cant compare EQ to PSO

Neotyre: why not is not the action still illegal? Is drug dealing worse than murdering? Can not one lead to the other so many times are they not related?

Ambrai X`Viento: you are way off in left field. so far off I have no clue what you are trying to say.

Neotyre: you can not justify one type of wrong just because it is of lesser quality, you get me?

Neotyre: thats like saying oh well...It was only ATEMPED murder, so well just give him 2yrs. BULL SHIT the intent was to kill they only didnt get to finish it. So the penalty should be the same as if it WERE murder.

Ambrai X`Viento: EQ Farming hurt people, why - assholes would come up, be rude get them killed steal from them. make it so they couldnt get what they wanted done and possibly lose what they worked hard for

PSO- idiot ebayers can get their items BY THEMSELVES OFFLINE or in a passworded game. Other players still have the SAME opportunity as they did before.

Ambrai X`Viento: aye I agree with you on that. but what I am saying is that EQ is NOT PSO

Ambrai X`Viento: ebayers do NOT Affect players in ANY way.

Neotyre: Oh well its only PSO items are easy to get and it doesnt really effect me like it does in EQ....YES you are right however!!! does that make it right none the less?

Ambrai X`Vie: how does it make it wrong? Other than saying that oh ebaying is evil. what is evil about it. It doesnt hurt players like it did in EQ. that was the only gripe about Ebayers in EQ. they were assholes who would hurt the fun you had in game. In PSO they cant do that. You cannot create an arguement proving that ebaying hurts you in any way shape or form in PSO.

Ambrai X`Vie: Can you state how ebaying hurts the PSO player?

Neotyre: why yes...Heres the thing. The base of the PSO comunity is made up of impressionable teens. For sum this might be their first online gaming experience. By introducing them to the dupes, cheats and EBAY, they get involed the dark side of online gaming. Now some might know selling items gottin a game where by they do not OWN the rights to, is in fact illegal and immoral, and they wont. HOWEVER the majority see how widespread and (obvious by the huge listing in ebay) accepted it is. They will likewise create a habit, one that will carry with them into others games LIKE yes....Everquest etc =)

Ambrai X`Vie: But you can say the same thing for whenever someone walks outside, goes to school or reads the newspaper.

in PSO ebay happens behind the scenes. You dont go up to a camp and find it taken because some ebayer is on it. You dont have to find something else to do because of them. Buying items off of ebay doesnt make the player any better than before skill lv so it still doesnt hurt.

If your thoughts are on impressionable teens, then I think your concerns are better placed on the numourous theives in game, and sexual preditors. Ebay in PSO is about as bad as a scalper at the ball game. You know they are there and you dont care about them unless you want tickets. Then you buy your tickets and bitch the whole game about how much you had to pay. Other than that they dont affect you.

Neotyre: I guess heres my beef. In PSO a level one can use someones hacked 999 mag and be equal to someone who is many levels above. This can not be done in EQ. In EQ i have NUMEROUS places to hunt for exp and the same chance as anyone else to get an item. In PSO I have to constantly be weighing my moral judgements weather or not I should play with someone who is obviously a hack. In EQ a twink is still a twink, however if Powerleveled his skills like Defence etc might be lower anyways. IMHO the mag hack just totaly ruined the game =(

Ambrai X`Vie: your off topic, we are discussing ebay not hacking.

Neotyre: ahh, but where do the hacked items end up? on Ebay and little billy can spend his allowance on Ebay and get the items now in stead of learning how to earn it...not only that but learn a lesson in life.

Ambrai X`Vie: WAYYYYYYYYYY off topic

Neotyre: LOL dude no its not. I'm goin into the moral issue of how ebaying online items can teach people things can be bought and not earned...this carries into real life thus creating a society of lazy, un intellegent, attitude filled do nothings. Tell me why with the technology we have today it takes more people to do the same jobs? Why is it when you go to the mall you see a new set of people everyweek...cus this generation does not want to work for what they have... Thus Ebaying permotes this type of thinking =)

Ambrai X`Vie: but how did they get the money eh? Working ? Stealing? Previous habits that didnt change when they wanted an item from an online auction center?

Neotyre:I HAVE A SNAKE MAN

Neotyre:IT WAS SLITHERING THIS WAY AND THAT

Neotyre:IT WAS ALL FUCKED UP!

Neotyre:doh i messed it up

Neotyre:i suck
forgot the beer part

Neotyre:stupid stupid stuipd

Neotyre:I miss chris farley, he was funny

Neotyre:HOORAY FOR PSO....HOORAY FOR ME!

Neotyre:I gotta clean my house man, thats gonna suck

Neotyre:I think i might have to let a few of my dishes soak awhile...that or just throw them away

Neotyre:I like talking to myself, really i do

Neotyre:Hello mr Hand how are you?

Neotyre:hey have you ever seen Rocket Man? OMG that movie is funny, I think its one of the funnies movies Disney has ever made.

Neotyre:mmm, I'm done thinking about stuff, I think I have a tumor in my brain now

Neotyre:ITS NOT A TUMOR!!!

Neotyre:they human head weighs 8 pounds did you know that

Neotyre:falls over dead

Ambrai X`vie: crack is bad... rofl

Neotyre:twitches

Ambrai X`Vie: crack BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDD

beer GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDD

Neotyre: you know i was playing my ranger the other day and I was like HOLY SHIT, this is the sequal to Resident Evil!!!

At this point Neo went insane and the guys in white jackets came for him... /mourn


TGIF!!!

Edit: Adding more http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_cool.gif. - Ambrai

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Ambrai on 2001-03-09 11:39 ]</font>

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Ambrai on 2001-03-09 11:59 ]</font>

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Ambrai on 2001-03-09 12:21 ]</font>

[RaSMG]

OK, some of you may not like this, but I thought it was funny. I am oposed to the selling of items on ebay like many of you, because everyhone knows they're duped. Anyways i was searching ebay to see how much people were getting ripped off and I came across a chainsawd +30 auction. It had a few minutes left so i bookmarked the item # and it ended up selling for $23.50. The seller gave away specific instructions on where to meet him to claim items he had on ebay. He had like 10 things on when I checked his seller list all PSO items. So I went to the server and found the game he was waiting for people in, I guess he does this rather often. Anyways I asked him if he got my email. I told him I was ****** who won the auction for the chainsawd. We talked for a bit about rares, and he gave me a chainsawd +30. I was laughing hysterically. Anyways he went on to tell me all these other things I could buy off him which were super rare and all maxed out. I already knew he had duped these items so he is scum. You may think it was wrong of me to lie but it's not like he doesn't already have 20 more of those waiting to be duped. Anyways, just sharing a way to ripoff the ripoffers ... hope you had a laugh.

[pcmorris]

Much as I love to avoid the thought of trading in general (I have played asheron's call, where people who have nothing better to do than to beg for the same weapon/armor/jewelry 1000 times in the space of an hour were common in certain towns), I just can't resist giving my thoughts on the people who sell this stuff on ebay.

In a game where cheating has become so horribly rampant that it is nigh onto impossible to hop into any ship where someone doesn't have something duped or is in the process of duping another item, paying for something from these games in REAL money is insane for something that could easily be gone before you even leave the team. Has anyone ever seen diablo I items up for sale?

I took a look on eBay for selling of stuff from Diablo I. Ran a search for Diablo. What came up? Diablo 2 stuff. Reasonable, since online the stuff isn't likely to somehow replicate, but still not what I was looking for. The most you see on stuff from Diablo I is the game, the CD to be more precise. Are items from the game being sold? Simple answer: no. Why? With all the hacks and cheats for the game, why would you ever need to purchase with real money what you could easily grab after a few minutes of 'playing around' with the hacking tools.

PSO has close to the same situation going for it. People have codes for this game, massive exploitation is going on, and people still make a profit from it? Something doesn't sound right to me. But I digress, if you're crazy enough to buy stuff online because you're too lazy to be "friendly" once in a while, really PLAY the game (isn't that what people do with games or am I missing something), or can't hunt down a duper and beg the living daylights out of him for something, then go right ahead and buy the stuff.

As it stands, I see no way for Sega to determine if an item is actually duped or not, if a character save was not 'altered' other than the time seemingly rolling back or a mag that is over lvl 200. So people will keep selling duped weapons until somehow (perhaps this supposed "appendix disc"?) it becomes impossible for the items to be duped and character saves can no longer be "cheated" on in any way - shape - or form.

-Note: Heh, this is what happens when you start me on a topic I've thought of for too long http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif I'm notorious for long posts on the guild boards I was in with Asheron's Call

*cough*gottastopranting*cough*

Ok, my point:
Do I mind people are buying this stuff?
-Not in the least

Do I mind what people buying the stuff promotes? (aka: to earn money off PSO, you have to buy a gameshark and do every cheat in the book so you get every item anyone could possibly want and start eBaying off the copies)
-Yes, I do very much.

Do I think there's anything that can be done about it on any end?
-Not in the slightest. The mentality these people have will never change if there's money too be made, and money talks louder than (i'm gonna sound really old-fashioned with this remark, too much AC) HONOR to anyone who knows enough to pull off cheats

Am I done yet?
-Yeah, just about.

Gee, maybe I should've done this whole post in the Q to A format... anyone still reading this post? Maybe I should've mentioned at the top this was long and feel free to skip it... oh well...

BTW: As a final note (sorry, I'm really tormenting everyone now)

I looked up Phantasy Star Online on ebay. Now I'll believe the 5 dollar auctions for stuff, but there's one at a $51 dollar bid that started at $35. Apparently the people that are trying to buy these never realized that the stuff is obviously being duped. After the 3rd time this one goes up, I think people will get the gist and just go one at a time on the bidding. Just my thought on how all these ebay sales are going to go after a while.

Ok, I'm done, time to breath some fresh air (college time). If you actually read this entire post, get some coffee and WAKE UP!!! Can't be that interesting, can it?

Remember people - no flames on the thread (and I think that's gonna prevent anything?). Pessimism at it's best http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_smile.gif

[frostbite]

This remind me of something, has any of you seem the Biography special on Bill Gates? on the early days of Microsoft when every one in the business thought software should be freely distributed and Bill was shot at for trying to make a profit of it? I do agree with what was said originally, if ppl are willing to drop 20 for an easily duped Item. let them. but some how I wonder if the guy who's selling is actually getting the check in the mail?

[Socrates]

I don't think they're technically doing anything illegal by selling them. There isn't a tangible item that's being sold. Rather, what they are selling is more akin toa service: instead of you having to play for hours and hours to get this item, I've done that work already for you. Or, more likely, I've duped them. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/icon_frown.gif

While I can't necessarily agree with the idea of masquerading as the actual buyer (that is a serious offense, not to mention quite literally illegal as hell, and eBay can and has come down hard on people that have done similar things), you have to wonder what sort of slapjack goofball puts all that info for public viewing as opposed to setting up a meeting time and date privately with the buyer?

[MechDan]

I don't see what the big deal is. If some fool wants to spend his money on a video game item, I say let him.

To me, this issue is so insignificant and unimportant it's laughable. Buying a video game item isn't going to get the buyer hurt or killed, like cigarrettes or even beer might.

[Josh]

I don't have a problem with people selling legitimately earned items (like Diablo 2 rares) on eBAY, but selling duped PSO items is horrible. These people probably don't check out the latest PSO news and don't know about duped items. They are paying their hard-earned money for something that they think is really unique, yet tons of other people have gotten from duper.

[Athian]

Definition of a flame is a personal attack against another individual or group. Have a nice day. - Ambrai


Anyway why shouldn't you be able to sell the items you earned? After all it was your time and money and effort that made getting said items possible. Last time I checked this was a PSO board enough with the EQ talk. That game should have no place on these boards, yet, time and again it comes up in countless posts. Enough already. Your time, your game, your effort, your money, sell sell sell!
Besides its good to take the money of people stupid enough to pay real money for a line of code. My two cents.

[addsig]

<font size=1>[ This message was edited by: Ambrai on 2001-03-09 16:12 ]</font>

[Neojin]

You own the CD the game on, and the right to play that game.

HOWEVER, you DO NOT own the game itself. If you did you would be making millions of dollars on the sales of that game. No, Sega owns that game and everything in it, all characters and items are copyrighted in that game thats how the thousands of programers and Customer Service people etc make their living.

Getting items from a GAME is not earning them. Its not a job, its a form of entertainment. This is exactly what I was trying to say in my disscusion with Ambrai, easy money without morals.

A farmer who spends day in and out putting sweat into working his field and raising a crop to sell it to support his family. He EARNED that money.

Someone who sits in their living room drinking Jolt and eating cheesy poofs smashing buttons on a controler finding random junk on a game then selling it isnt earning crap.

sigh...sorry I just think people are missing the bigger picture here.

[Seutekh]

Actually, Neojin, I understood, and i do agree one-hundred percent.

The people selling items on E-bay are making money on a product that isn't theirs to sell. It is indeed return without expenditure, and money without morals. In a word: Bad.

However... I actually still support the idea on the general basis that it takes money out of the hands of morons and people who otherwise have more money than they rationally know what to do with.

Sure, on a moral standpoint, I don't agree with it on any level, and given that most of the items are duped, I'm offended on the level of a player who feels that his game is being messed with, but all in all, I can't get past the fact that somehow, somewhere, someone who's wallet is too large for their IQ is getting swindled, and it just makes me grin evilly... errr... I mean smile. Yeah. That's it.