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TaigaUC
Jun 26, 2016, 05:49 PM
Edit: Mistranslated because I misunderstood the context. Well, you can still sort of use the points as a vague guide.

Late to the party, but you missed the point of this image. It lists various separate conflicting views on topics. For example, on the subject of gear it starts at the extreme that the only acceptable gear is fully upgraded Austere, then the next one is that anything Ares or stronger is okay, and so on.

So, I saw this image uploaded to MMOLoda earlier.
http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image.php?id=86493

It's a summary of stuff JP players often argue about.

There are a few things on there that even I didn't realize was a problem.
Thought it might be interesting to translate it, but I'm also not 100% confident that I'm translating it correctly.
I also added a bit to elaborate on the meaning of "fully-grinded".
So, I figured maybe we can sorta discuss some of the things on there. Here goes:


Never-ending Player Disputes (a prejudiced arbitrary summary)

#What kind of weapon is sufficient for Extra Hard?
- Austere is not acceptable unless it's fully-grinded.
- You should have a fully-grinded (preferably 60 element) 13 star weapon equal to or better than Ares.
- Crafted+Photon Booster Latent Red weapons, fully-grinded 12 stars, old 13 star weapons at 10303 (ie. +10, 30 element, Lv3 latent) or better are all good.
- Small Pristine Hammer, Niren Kamui are also okay.
- Fully-grinded 11 star weapon or better is okay (ever since XH/Ultimate was implemented).
- Game management assumes you have a 12 star weapon.


#For Bo/Hu, is it okay to use Moment Gale's followup action? (ie. is it okay to use Zanverse without Wind Mastery or effective Latent?)
- If nobody else is using Zanverse, then it's not a problem.
- If it's an EQ where you just run around and there are tons of trash mobs, then do whatever.
- If you're sure other players aren't using Zanverse with bonus damage, then do whatever.
- To begin with, it's not good to use Moment Gale's followup on bosses.
- Moment Gale's followup weak vacuum gets in the way, so you shouldn't be using it anyway.
* Extra info from the thread: casting Zanverse and doing something else is better damage. Followup can be useful for Loser's clock (ie. Zanverse -> Mirage).


#Is it okay to use Katana against bosses?
- If you're using the appropriate Photon Arts, then it's no problem.
- However, you should be using Bow on enemies that aren't moving.
TL note: To elaborate, people keep telling me that using Banish Arrow -> charged Kamikaze x2 with even a 20 element Orbit (13 star) Bow deals massive damage.
* Extra info from the thread: Bow can still be used on some moving targets if you're good enough.


#When it looks like I can't kill an AIS Exoda in time, should I destroy the blaster (gun) instead?
- Destroying the blaster leads to the AIS running amok, so you should be going for the legs.
- However, preventing them from firing is top priority, so break the blaster if you have to.


*But what about affixes? (TL's note: not included in the original image)
- Grinding units and weapons to maximum is far more important than affixing.
- Get affixes that suit your playstyle, and make up for your shortcomings (eg. more defense if you die a lot).
- More PP means more PAs/Techs, meaning more damage. Try to balance this with +damage affixes.



For the record, the stuff I didn't really know about:
- I didn't know people thought Katana is so weak that it can't kill bosses.
- Didn't realize people got so upset about Moment Gale's Zanverse (I used it on PD a few days ago because nobody else seemed to be using Zanverse).
- Didn't realize Moment Gale's vacuum was considered "getting in the way".

ZerotakerZX
Jun 26, 2016, 10:50 PM
For the record, the stuff I didn't really know about:
- I didn't know people thought Katana is so weak that it can't kill bosses.
- Didn't realize people got so upset about Moment Gale's Zanverse (I used it on PD a few days ago because nobody else seemed to be using Zanverse).
- Didn't realize Moment Gale's vacuum was considered "getting in the way".
some jap's ppl stupid grudges, like the one they have against dolphins, so pay no mind.

Kondibon
Jun 26, 2016, 11:03 PM
Everyone take note of how affixes aren't mentioned. :I

EDIT: Also, it's not that people think Katana can't kill bosses. It's that bow is so much stronger against big single targets that there isn't any reason to bother.

nguuuquaaa
Jun 26, 2016, 11:27 PM
I expect anyone with TE either main or sub do the least work of Shifta at tele, but lately I've seen even TE/HU with fully grinded/affixed Quotz Cane that doesn't do that. Ugh, now I wish I can clone myself.

SteveCZ
Jun 26, 2016, 11:33 PM
- Didn't realize people got so upset about Moment Gale's Zanverse (I used it on PD a few days ago because nobody else seemed to be using Zanverse).
- Didn't realize Moment Gale's vacuum was considered "getting in the way".

Doesn't have to strictly follow what they say. Not everything is stated there.

As for Katana, as Kondibon said.

These people (not saying all people) aren't upset about Moment Gale's Zanverse. They do not like whatever Zanverse that doesn't have extra damage from Techer. Bo/Hu doesn't have it, so don't use that gale with that build IF any of those Techers (or Fo/Tes) with Wind Mastery are around. If there's literally no Zanverse, any Zanverse will definitely help.

I don't get how the Moment Gale's vacuum gets in the way though, it really depends on the enemies. You definitely ain't moving PD or Loser or even Zeta Guranz with that right. Lol. But I agree on the damage. In that case, Zondeel is way preferable if it's just about the vacuum.

Xaelouse
Jun 26, 2016, 11:43 PM
Moment Gale's shift is good to open up Loser's clock or hitting bits consistently during PD but that's all you should be using it on as far as bosses go, besides for soloing multiple bosses. Spamming Moment Gale shift only for zanverse and then think that's all you should do undermines everything about Bouncer too, so there's that.

There are several videos of someone using bow to kill ult bosses in a timely manner, and some of those bosses do move around quite a lot. That actually favors Bow's bursting capabilities even more since you can nail them with a banish while they're moving then wait till they stop for a bit to unload kamikaze.

Affixes aren't mentioned because there are good players that still use 60 attack affixes and focus on HP, PP, or all attack stats instead. Max grind + element relevant weapon and 11* units are way more important and that's why they only mentioned that.

ZerotakerZX
Jun 27, 2016, 12:12 AM
I expect anyone with TE either main or sub do the least work of Shifta at tele, but lately I've seen even TE/HU with fully grinded/affixed Quotz Cane that doesn't do that. Ugh, now I wish I can clone myself.

You are walking on thin ice of becoming a moron there. Try to worry yourself with IRL problems and your random playmates won't appear as troublesome, so you won't need to treat them like shit.


Affixes aren't mentioned because there are good players that still use 60 attack affixes and focus on HP, PP, or all attack stats instead. Max grind + element relevant weapon and 11* units are way more important and that's why they only mentioned that.
That's a good point. From what I have noticed ppl who plays way too often constantly talking about affixes. It may be a very nice bonus, but most of damage came out of your build and general gaming ability. I'm sure somebody gonna tell me now that affixes our everything.

Great Pan
Jun 27, 2016, 12:27 AM
Aw, I personally sucked at using bows. Oh well, I'm more of a Katana main anyway.

Kondibon
Jun 27, 2016, 12:29 AM
Affixes aren't mentioned because there are good players that still use 60 attack affixes and focus on HP, PP, or all attack stats instead. Max grind + element relevant weapon and 11* units are way more important and that's why they only mentioned that.That's kind of my point. I feel like people put way too much stock on affixing, so seeing it not even mentioned here makes me feel better.


You are walking on thin ice of becoming a moron there. Try to worry yourself with IRL problems and your random playmates won't appear as troublesome, so you won't need to treat them like shit.
I don't think being a bit frustrated counts as treating someone like shit.

milranduil
Jun 27, 2016, 12:32 AM
You are walking on thin ice of becoming a moron there. Try to worry yourself with IRL problems and your random playmates won't appear as troublesome, so you won't need to treat them like shit.

if you think pressing shifta is too high of an expectation, you have your own irl problems m8.

nguuuquaaa
Jun 27, 2016, 01:06 AM
You are walking on thin ice of becoming a moron there. Try to worry yourself with IRL problems and your random playmates won't appear as troublesome, so you won't need to treat them like shit.

You know I don't expect anyone to do 1000000000000000 damage or Zanverse/Megiverse the WHOLE map, just pressing Shifta at tele when there's absolutely nothing to do except staring at the navigator saying something in moonrunes.

Agastya
Jun 27, 2016, 07:16 AM
what's really depressing is that for the most part, this is all just common sense stuff

Z-0
Jun 27, 2016, 07:43 AM
I didn't realise people used Moment Gale Zanverse (on bosses) when it would make 10x more sense to use Zanverse first and then another PA.

ZerotakerZX
Jun 27, 2016, 08:48 AM
if you think pressing shifta is too high of an expectation, you have your own irl problems m8.

Really shallow analisys there.

That's kind of my point. I feel like people put way too much stock on affixing, so seeing it not even mentioned here makes me feel better.


I don't think being a bit frustrated counts as treating someone like shit.Because it wasn't it. And even it was: really stupid reason to get frustrated. It's not youtube retro gaming show.

sparab
Jun 27, 2016, 10:05 AM
Even for bossing, katana still do above average damage if you are good at spamming guren tessen.
Some elites only discriminate katana because they expect you to carry them faster with a bow.

But using moment gale on boss is just bad, unless you TeBr which is not much better in most cases.

milranduil
Jun 27, 2016, 10:10 AM
TL note: To elaborate, people keep telling me that using Banish Arrow -> charged Kamikaze x3 with even a 20 element Orbit (13 star) Bow deals massive damage.
?

Really shallow analisys there.
explain


But using moment gale on boss is just bad, unless you TeBr which is not much better in most cases.
??????????

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 27, 2016, 11:35 AM
Because it wasn't it. And even it was: really stupid reason to get frustrated. It's not youtube retro gaming show.

You do know it's natural to be frustrated when someone isn't pulling their weight in a team effort, right? Especially when they fail to do something so simple as right click, or press that button that gives you and everyone else 10% more damage, right?

Are you going to tell me a co-worker not doing their job, and making more work for you isn't frustrating?

Like seriously, TRY to gain a little perspective, man.


Really shallow analisys there.


Do you even know what you were talking about?

Xaeris
Jun 27, 2016, 11:55 AM
You can fit three Kamis into a Banish Arrow? I didn't know. I don't really play Braver beyond leveling it as a subclass, but always thought it was two.

milranduil
Jun 27, 2016, 12:13 PM
You can fit three Kamis into a Banish Arrow? I didn't know. I don't really play Braver beyond leveling it as a subclass, but always thought it was two.

it's 2. i'm assuming that was a typo.

Tunga
Jun 27, 2016, 05:17 PM
Who uses moment gale on a boss when other PAs are way better.

Poyonche
Jun 27, 2016, 05:18 PM
Who uses moment gale on a boss when other PAs are way better.

The same people that think using Rafoie on Double is a good idea.
I seriously had those kind of FOs in my last pug.

TaigaUC
Jun 28, 2016, 03:57 AM
I can only imagine Moment Gale vacuum getting in the way when fighting mini-bosses like Wolgarda.

I was also wondering if it was better to just use Zanverse instead of Moment Gale.
I have trouble discerning the total damage of attacks like Moment Gale that hit tons of times in quick succession.
I couldn't tell if it was more efficient to deal damage+Zanverse via Moment Gale, or to cast Zanverse and then do something else.
The reason I thought Zanverse was important was because I thought the Zanverse damage of the entire multi would be much more significant than focusing on my own.


For affixes, the knowledgeable JP friend (I trust them because they've always been reliably accurate with very reasonable judgment) told me these things:
- The difference between something like 60 ATK and 130 ATK is only a few % worth of extra damage.
- It's better to get affixes that you can't get via weapon/skill tree, eg. +HP, +PP, +debuff (for classes that benefit from it), etc.
- That grinding to max is much more important than affixes.

I forget what else they said. This is the way I see it:
- You can't do damage if you're dead, so you need decent enough defenses to stay alive.
- More PP means you can get more damage in. You need to somehow balance this with the % of damage you're sacrificing in return for +PP.

These games are designed so that systems like affixes are there to make up for a player's shortcomings.
So you should generally get whatever best suits your personal playstyle.
For example, if you die a lot, then get more defense. If you never get hit, then get more offense-related stuff.
At the same time, there are bonuses in skill trees, latents, etc, that you can't get elsewhere. So you need to prioritize based on that.

To be honest, I wasn't sure if "full strengthen" included affixing. I considered adding it, but decided not to.


In regards to Shifta... sometimes nobody uses it at the teleporter. Which is kinda strange. Usually there's always someone who should be able to.
I try to put it up if I'm not busy doing something before the teleport.


I avoided using Bow as Br/Hu because I didn't think I had a decent Bow worth using.
I thought I heard that Kamikaze can be done 3 times before Banish goes off, but I may have misunderstood.
I haven't gone out of my way to practice using it yet. I really should.


Anyway, thanks everyone for the replies and discussion.

final_attack
Jun 28, 2016, 04:43 AM
Well, you can always use MomentGale's Zanverse, and quickly step-cancel to remove most of the suction while maintaining Zanverse (Zanverse is still there when you step-cancel it, no?) if suction is the problem o.o

I personally prefer to cast Zanverse through MomentGale ..... less chance to get interrupted (super armor the moment MomentGale's used, no? Provided you don't have TechChargeParry Ring like I did :( Ne need to craft Zanverse too ) and faster cast (Use MomentGale - quickly use weapon action ..... forfeiting initial slashes), I think?

To be fair, I mostly use MomentGale's Zanverse when playing support role (or +safety net) TeSu, as asked by mpa lead. So, dunno about damage potential from my PA by itself. But, I believe it's better to quickly cast Zanverse - step cancel - then do something else (other PA maybe, since DPS of MomentGale is the lowest among JB PA, as stated in JP wiki).

Flipped Zesh is also affected by Zondeel / MomentGale's suction too, I believe. I personally MomentGale's Zanverse the chest core after flipped, so, usually less / no suction effect ..... but when I played GuRa, sometimes I saw flipped Zesh moved away slowly (probably Zondeel / MomentGale's suction, since it's not teleporting because of lag ..... TPS mode view range is smaller >.< ). Noticed it because it moved when I'm about to ChainFinish, making the ChainFinish missed.

Poyonche
Jun 28, 2016, 08:33 AM
The problem is that Zanverse changes the Jetboots element (Why SEGA, Why ?) so this is might be why most of the JB BO use Moment Gale to cast Zanverse.

TaigaUC
Jun 28, 2016, 09:25 AM
Oh yeah, forgot about that. What a pain.

NoobSpectre
Jun 28, 2016, 09:51 AM
I forget what else they said. This is the way I see it:
- You can't do damage if you're dead, so you need decent enough defenses to stay alive.


This is Golden mantra.

TaigaUC
Jun 28, 2016, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I keep seeing people with no stamina affixes, and they probably have something like 600-800 HP.
Those people also usually have no grinding.

I've been wondering why there are people who have like, +1, +6, +7 units, and then +10 weapons.
Units are waaaaaaaay easier to grind.

sparab
Jun 28, 2016, 09:41 PM
I've used +0 5s Ex8 Saiki over a year, don't ask why.

Flaoc
Jun 28, 2016, 11:03 PM
For affixes, the knowledgeable JP friend (I trust them because they've always been reliably accurate with very reasonable judgment) told me these things:
- The difference between something like 60 ATK and 130 ATK is only a few % worth of extra damage.
- It's better to get affixes that you can't get via weapon/skill tree, eg. +HP, +PP, +debuff (for classes that benefit from it), etc.
- That grinding to max is much more important than affixes.

I forget what else they said. This is the way I see it:
- You can't do damage if you're dead, so you need decent enough defenses to stay alive.
- More PP means you can get more damage in. You need to somehow balance this with the % of damage you're sacrificing in return for +PP.


this is actually true as well.. a post from a different thread but i do explain how little i lost with a 110 atk loss


to clarify further on how 60 atk loss temporarily is actually ok when i made austere melee units i had a fail on alter arma so my new set ended up 115 95 115 so i was about 110 atk down from my old 145 atk saiki and well... the difference was a "whopping" 500 damage on endo (with 150 atk 60 ele austere katana) OH BOY!

ZerotakerZX
Jun 28, 2016, 11:54 PM
I use zanverse exlusevely from Moment Gale and doing topDPS (20-30% MPA damage) every time in a boss battle. So I see ABSOLUTELY no problems on that matter. I think others shouldn't as well.

milranduil
Jun 29, 2016, 12:13 AM
I use zanverse exlusevely from Moment Gale and doing topDPS (20-30% MPA damage) every time in a boss battle. So I see ABSOLUTELY no problems on that matter. I think others shouldn't as well.

i'd love to see your parse during an elder kill.

SteveCZ
Jun 29, 2016, 12:35 AM
It's a min-max thing if it's about ATK affixes. If that few percent worth of extra damage kills an enemy with only 6 PAs instead of 7 PAs, you cut a few seconds of animation and save 20 - 30 PP for the next move on other task (other enemies). Your game play can change quite drastically because of such situation.

Say 7 PAs thrown can empty your PP. 6 PAs thrown means you can use the remaining PP to dash to another target, while the one who casts 7 PAs has to walk or turn on PP Convert earlier than the one who only need to cast 6 PAs/techs in the first place. Everything changes since then.

The other is also you want to kill or destroy parts as fast as you can so the enemy (like Double) can get stunned before getting into another random move that breaks the calculated pattern of the MPA. By this you got to precisely count the minimum ATK of each player, especially the one that has task to perform burst damage.

Based on the above, I really suggest to not make gears without reasons. Saying "I want of full ATK gear so I can be the strongest ever!" is not enough reason. If 130/13 gear is enough for what you need to do, I see no reason to sacrifice 4 PP each unit just to get 150/9 you don't know what for. If 130/9 is enough for your current tasks, then having HP affix in it won't hurt.

Remember that the longer the run is (especially boss), the more threat the enemies can give you, the more you will fall into a belief that HP affixes is a must have. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't affix HP (as I've elaborated it in paragraph 4), but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 29, 2016, 12:42 AM
I use zanverse exlusevely from Moment Gale and doing topDPS (20-30% MPA damage) every time in a boss battle. So I see ABSOLUTELY no problems on that matter. I think others shouldn't as well.

Not only is that unlikely requiring very specific numbers from all mpa members (high enough to inflate your numbers and low enough to not pass you) while casting zanverse through moment gale shift, it IS ship 2 pugs we're talking about here. If it's one thing overparse taught me in the past two weeks is that most randoms we mpa with aren't very good at doing damage.

Youmu Konpaku
Jun 29, 2016, 12:53 AM
It's a min-max thing if it's about ATK affixes. If that few percent worth of extra damage kills an enemy with only 6 PAs instead of 7 PAs, you cut a few seconds of animation and save 20 - 30 PP for the next move on other task (other enemies). Your game play can change quite drastically because of such situation.

Say 7 PAs thrown can empty your PP. 6 PAs thrown means you can use the remaining PP to dash to another target, while the one who casts 7 PAs has to walk or turn on PP Convert earlier than the one who only need to cast 6 PAs/techs in the first place. Everything changes since then.

The other is also you want to kill or destroy parts as fast as you can so the enemy (like Double) can get stunned before getting into another random move that breaks the calculated pattern of the MPA. By this you got to precisely count the minimum ATK of each player, especially the one that has task to perform burst damage.

Based on the above, I really suggest to not make gears without reasons. Saying "I want of full ATK gear so I can be the strongest ever!" is not enough reason. If 130/13 gear is enough for what you need to do, I see no reason to sacrifice 4 PP each unit just to get 150/9 you don't know what for. If 130/9 is enough for your current tasks, then having HP affix in it won't hurt.

Remember that the longer the run is (especially boss), the more threat the enemies can give you, the more you will fall into a belief that HP affixes is a must have. Not that I'm saying you shouldn't affix HP (as I've elaborated it in paragraph 4), but I'm sure you get what I mean.

then, going 150/9 is bad? i'm just asking it. then what is best in power/pp/hp ratio?

Saagonsa
Jun 29, 2016, 12:53 AM
Yeah, I keep seeing people with no stamina affixes, and they probably have something like 600-800 HP.
Those people also usually have no grinding.

Nah. There's definitely people who have 0 stamina affixes and manage just fine for most things. Personally, I haven't used any HP increasing affixes or unit bonuses at all for a fairly long time and come out at 619 HP as a Fo/Te, and very generally come out perfectly fine in most situations. Most people I know follow a similar setup, with similar experiences.

ZerotakerZX
Jun 29, 2016, 01:07 AM
Not only is that unlikely requiring very specific numbers from all mpa members (high enough to inflate your numbers and low enough to not pass you) while casting zanverse through moment gale shift, it IS ship 2 pugs we're talking about here. If it's one thing overparse taught me in the past two weeks is that most randoms we mpa with aren't very good at doing damage.
That just hollow speculations, but I've checked on my own so I know what I'm talking about. Team MPA maybe better a bit, but randoms aren't as bed as elitistic player love to show em. Plus, the game is still piss easy and won't get harder anytime soon, so worrying about that stuff is silly. The only trouble one could have with PUGs is running out of moons too soon, but that's all.

i'd love to see your parse during an elder kill.

Just as I described. Elder is not that special.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 29, 2016, 01:23 AM
That just hollow speculations,

Pugs having a tendency to suck is not a hollow speculation. It's reality.
Requiring people to supply just the right amount of damage for what you claim to have done isn't hollow either.

I'm not saying what you did is impossible. I'm saying it was unlikely, and if it actually did happen, one of those two above things had to be the reason it happened. They're really the only possibilities.

Also, I'm pretty damn sure you're not beating a good Fo/Te on PD doing what you do ever.


but randoms aren't as bed as elitistic player love to show em.

They can be. I made numerous posts about them. I made a post the other day about how 3 bravers in the same MPA as me could not do 1/3rd of my damage put together with the very numbers read straight from overparse when I'm the same class as them.

Results of that is a much longer fight, and way more deaths across the MPA.

milranduil
Jun 29, 2016, 01:24 AM
That just hollow speculations, but I've checked on my own so I know what I'm talking about. Team MPA maybe better a bit, but randoms aren't as bed as elitistic player love to show em. Plus, the game is still piss easy and won't get harder anytime soon, so worrying about that stuff is silly. The only trouble one could have with PUGs is running out of moons too soon, but that's all.


Just as I described. Elder is not that special.

you don't even get why i say elder specifically do you?

sparab
Jun 29, 2016, 01:26 AM
Just as I described. Elder is not that special.

PSOW comment of the day, but my incests line is better.

SteveCZ
Jun 29, 2016, 01:32 AM
then, going 150/9 is bad? i'm just asking it.

No it's not bad, lol, nor it's always good in all situation, in terms of balancing whether it is overkill or not. If you read it again, I already told you "not make gears without reasons". I have 150 ATK/9 PP gear, 130/11 gear, 110/13 gear, 200 HP/3 PP gear, 40 ATK/20 PP gear, and other more hybrids that fits to some quests, just to check this out (and then Austere came out. Sigh).

Say, before class bonus 10% applied and 13* was only Ares, this 150/9 is still quite an edge. Now you got 10% class bonus and Austere, 130/13 is still the same as what you are before (actually stronger), against the exact, same enemy you fight. In return, you got 4 PP per unit by affix, means more PAs to throw in a single period.

Another example is, say your attack with 150/9 is 15.000 per hit, and per enemy part only needs 60.001 damage to break or kill. You need to perform 5 PAs/techs that gives 75K damage for a 60.001, and say you're out of PP.
Meanwhile, say 60/20 gives you 12.005 per hit. You also perform exactly 5 PAs that gives 60.025 for a 60.001.
Compare to 150/9, 60/20 have more PP to spare for more PAs on a weak spot when that part breaks, while 150/9 is busy with throwing normal attacks to fill their PP in such important short time when the weak spot shows up.

Other example is Lilipa TA SH. I'm sure compare to Episode 2, You can now just wear full PP gear with Rentaunam/Rondakrus and Fo/Te build. More PP means more dashing, the faster you get to your target with your calculated spare of PP to attack it and still not getting out of PP, also enough time for the next PP Convert.


then what is best in power/pp/hp ratio?

Answering your expectation in power/hp/pp ratio, as my previous post and examples, I can't tell you the best ratio. If you have tons of money and able to make 170 ATK/15 PP/50 HP or whatever, of course that's a good way to go. It's all down to your budget and affix slots available. :-D

But I can just tell you how I think when making gears. I'd personally rather go for ATK/PP first. If that is more than enough or no more slots/combination to fill them, I can fill HP affix in it. So it goes last. My reason is, so far, the enemies don't really give me enough reasons to calculate how many PAs I can throw while I'm tanking compare to how many PAs thrown while I'm dodging, yet. So far, the dodging part still doesn't annoy me to the point I can't throw PAs as much as when I tank, so I still have no reason to balance HP equally to ATK and PP. That's my reason, but other people's reasons can also be different and the order of making it will be different too.

Maybe one day it can go the other way around for me, who knows.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 29, 2016, 01:35 AM
you don't even get why i say elder specifically do you?

If I had to take a guess, it's because elder is the closest thing to ye olde training dummy which would serve the same purpose it did in WoW; gauging performance with minimal interference, since elder has the attack speed of molasses, and readily available weak points all the time.

Do I get a cookie?

sparab
Jun 29, 2016, 01:42 AM
Do I get a cookie?

Elder has 90% wind resist and zanverus does 2-4% bonus damage. You can do more DPS with +0 umbra stick normal attack.

Shadowth117
Jun 29, 2016, 01:42 AM
If I had to take a guess, it's because elder is the closest thing to ye olde training dummy which would serve the same purpose it did in WoW; gauging performance with minimal interference, since elder has the attack speed of molasses, and readily available weak points all the time.

Do I get a cookie?

Hate to say it, but all you get is a dunce cap. Elder has a massive wind resist. You can try zanverse there if you want. It really won't accomplish very much.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Jun 29, 2016, 01:44 AM
Oh darn. You got me. But hey, I never pretended to be god's gift to Fos at least (or Bo unlike a certain someone). Seriously, I don't play it much, and I ask questions on it every other day. :/


then, going 150/9 is bad? i'm just asking it. then what is best in power/pp/hp ratio?

I missed this. My personal opinion on HP and PP would likely vary with the class a bit, but for Br/Hu, I did that very affix on my units (actually 145/9 because im a coward) with two hp crafts and one pp craft. I have 915 HP because it's enough to be 3 shottable by most attacks. If I were to go much lower than that, and I'd be subject to either dying in two shots when juggled, or needing to heal after every hit or else die the next, which is needlessly annoying. It's a world of difference between getting hit and needing to back off every time, and getting hit, and being able to stay in the fight until the next hit.

I chose to be content with 180pp since gaining the extra point here and there didn't seem to matter unless I got to 200, or 210, which is pretty much overkill against anything that isn't an XH boss (and even then, you dont need that much PP against XH train for example when it's a whack a mole fight), and would require reaffixing/dropping a bunch of atk, or 200hp. Also helps that guren tessen has the low low price of 20pp.

Xaeris
Jun 29, 2016, 02:18 AM
Just as I described. Elder is not that special.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone expose himself this thoroughly before.

milranduil
Jun 29, 2016, 02:20 AM
Elder has 90% wind resist and zanverus does 2-4% bonus damage. You can do more DPS with +0 umbra stick normal attack.

bingo, oatmeal choc chip? :D

I don't think I've ever seen anyone expose himself this thoroughly before.
gottem

Zephyrion
Jun 29, 2016, 03:27 AM
I'm going back to the zanverse thing, but...

Funnily enough,setting Zanverse from Moment gale actually IS a decent way of doing it, but people don't know how to do it properly (neither did I until I saw this) RIP Loser ("https://youtu.be/q3LooPIJwHM) at the 0:52 mark or so

How you do this is Moment gale, follow-up a.s.a.p, switch weapons,again a.s.a.p and jump. The jump will make you fast-fall (probably because other weapons aren't allowed to double jump out of Moment gale)
BO can't do this by switching a pair of boots for another, so they either have to switch to DB, or jut dash cancel out of it. It still makes for a fast way of casting zanverse without changing element.
That would be only relevant for classes unable to use zanverse, BUT the remaining Zanverse's damage value are calculated with the pair of boots with which you did the cast. So if as a TE/HU, you do this with Hyper sunlight and immediately switch to a wand that doesn't boost Zanverse, The Zanverse will still benefit from those 20% wind damage potential. If you have the dexterity to pull this off fast and consistently, those little % and faster cast on zanverse could definitely help.

EDIT : The zanverse values are actually calculated with your new weapon, not the boots themselves !

nguuuquaaa
Jun 29, 2016, 05:22 AM
Looking at number for Penetrating Arrow I'll say he need 40%+ Zanverse to be able to deal 62%+ of Loser's HP in the second mirage stun. And that's not possible with JB's potential.
My guess is Zanverse take on Rapid Shot Mastery and Edel Arrow's hidden potential.

Zephyrion
Jun 29, 2016, 05:33 AM
Looking at number for Penetrating Arrow I'll say he need 40%+ Zanverse to be able to deal 62%+ of Loser's HP in the second mirage stun. And that's not possible with JB's potential.
My guess is Zanverse take on Rapid Shot Mastery and Edel Arrow's hidden potential.

You're probably right, I've tested it out and realized it actually takes on your new weapon's zanverse boosting skills/potential so my bad^^

TaigaUC
Jun 29, 2016, 06:39 AM
Elder has massive resists against a bunch of stuff. I noticed it a long time ago, but I wasn't sure which resists until a JP friend told me a few months ago.
And I already forgot. Doesn't matter since I just use Light on him anyway. On top of that, I don't even do Elder anymore.

@Saagonsa
I know there are some people who don't need HP affixes and do fine.
But they are probably rare compared to the people who go splat every few seconds.
You'd think people would realize something's wrong when they die constantly whilst people in the same party never die.

Sandmind
Jun 29, 2016, 02:57 PM
I'm going back to the zanverse thing, but...

Funnily enough,setting Zanverse from Moment gale actually IS a decent way of doing it, but people don't know how to do it properly (neither did I until I saw this) RIP Loser ("https://youtu.be/q3LooPIJwHM) at the 0:52 mark or so

How you do this is Moment gale, follow-up a.s.a.p, switch weapons,again a.s.a.p and jump. The jump will make you fast-fall (probably because other weapons aren't allowed to double jump out of Moment gale)
BO can't do this by switching a pair of boots for another, so they either have to switch to DB, or jut dash cancel out of it. It still makes for a fast way of casting zanverse without changing element.
That would be only relevant for classes unable to use zanverse, BUT the remaining Zanverse's damage value are calculated with the pair of boots with which you did the cast. So if as a TE/HU, you do this with Hyper sunlight and immediately switch to a wand that doesn't boost Zanverse, The Zanverse will still benefit from those 20% wind damage potential. If you have the dexterity to pull this off fast and consistently, those little % and faster cast on zanverse could definitely help.

EDIT : The zanverse values are actually calculated with your new weapon, not the boots themselves !

Is it because it's Bouncer that zanverse from moment gale stay up even when weapon switching, or is it a bug that only occur with moment gale when quickly weapon switching like you're mentionning? Because otherwise, weapon switching cancel any active PA buff (see sword and Banish/vol raptor for example) and any offensive/support tech currently active on the field.

milranduil
Jun 29, 2016, 04:48 PM
Is it because it's Bouncer that zanverse from moment gale stay up even when weapon switching, or is it a bug that only occur with moment gale when quickly weapon switching like you're mentionning? Because otherwise, weapon switching cancel any active PA buff (see sword and Banish/vol raptor for example) and any offensive/support tech currently active on the field.

it has something to do with JB shift specifically and i'm not sure why. it's the same reason you can buy the JB with strike gust for fihu and weapon swap jump cancel after the shift action and still have shifta going with your new weapon out.

TaigaUC
Jun 29, 2016, 08:20 PM
That sounds really bizarre, and obviously not intended by SEGA.
If they don't want people taking advantage of stuff like that, they should either fix it or make it pointless by balancing the intended version better.

Kinda like how step dashing made movement way faster, and they "fixed" it by improving regular movement speed.
I remember people kept complaining about how they couldn't keep up with step dashing and didn't want to learn it.
I doubt SEGA originally designed the game with step dashing in mind as an actual mechanic.
Then again, I recall that comboing in Street Fighter 2 was also an accident that became an actual mechanic.

isCasted
Jun 30, 2016, 02:01 PM
Comboing in Street Fighter is actually related to fighting, it heavily increases skill cap, it doesn't look weird and it doesn't cause frame drops.

TaigaUC
Jun 30, 2016, 03:21 PM
Yes. But I recall hearing that Capcom originally did not intend for combos to be a game mechanic.

Zephyrion
Jun 30, 2016, 04:09 PM
Yes. But I recall hearing that Capcom originally did not intend for combos to be a game mechanic.

It actually makes sense to me, since PAs with after-effects (cluster bullet, torrential arrow and others) stay out upon switching. Only casts specifically disappear upon switching. Sega probably just forgot to make JB PAs an exception to this rule, because of their nature. Oh well, time will tell if this stays or not !

Aine
Jul 3, 2016, 01:22 PM
http://mmoloda.com/pso2/image.php?id=86493

Late to the party, but you missed the point of this image. It lists various separate conflicting views on topics. For example, on the subject of gear it starts at the extreme that the only acceptable gear is fully upgraded Austere, then the next one is that anything Ares or stronger is okay, and so on.

sparab
Jul 3, 2016, 03:41 PM
Ungrinded weapon or inappropriate PA users usually have shitty play skill. You just can't expect much from people who refuse to learn game mechanics.

TaigaUC
Jul 3, 2016, 05:50 PM
Yeah, I was wondering if that was the point of it. Thanks for the correction.
I thought it looked like "full Austere is required" but depending on the purpose of the image, I thought maybe I misunderstood.

It also sounds pretty damn ridiculous to insist full Austere is required.
Especially because you can't even earn Austere required mats until you play XH.