Healing Nerf: Yay or Nay?

[Altiea]

I like hearing other peoples opinions, so here's a good one.

So, with the arrival of the Odin Limited Quest, we have seen a new difficulty gimmick that reduces the amount healed by any and all sources of healing by approximately 80%. While the Limited Quest is still easy (like most content not named "Traces of Darkness" or "Solo XQ"), the heal nerf does make players slightly more conscious about receiving hits and adds slightly more of a need for a dedicated healer so your MPA doesn't need to keep begging for Moons every twenty seconds. With this in mind,

Would you like to see the healing nerf in other content?

[D-Inferno]

Tough call, because I feel like it hurts melee classes a bit to Automate not working properly anymore, while Fo isn't really bothered too much since they have a smaller HP bank to fully heal, and can even self Resta to start up a JA. And we all know Fo is pretty much the best, so I feel like it'd just create even more favoritism towards it.

It's not a terrible idea per see, but I think bulker targets (that actually pose a threat instead of being a HP sponge) and nerfs to the usual broken stuff would be better imo.

[ZerotakerZX]

Resta nerf is acceptable, but mates are almost useless this way.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

If techs weren't limited to 4 specific classes/if the damage enemies dealt was reduced, I wouldn't mind.

Right now, It's more annoying than difficult carrying around xie's 13* wand, getting hit once, and having to back off, and burn 64ppp, and extra time to heal fully as a Br.

It's not difficult. It's annoying.

[Xaelouse]

While I'm fine with it validating TE's support much more, it also validates the use of FO like the rest of the content. Also FOs are much less willing to use Resta on other people unless they themselves need healing and other people just happens to be nearby. FOs also do similar to more damage than melee anyway while being at a safe distance.
Not the most terrible of ideas, but it just highlights the game's issues even further to the point where it isn't fun.

[Flaoc]

if they nerfed resta but didnt hurt mates so much it might not be TOO bad but right now mates are almost useless

[Shadowstarkirby]

I like the idea of weaker heals, but the flat 80% to every source of healing just feels ham handed because now anyone who doesn't main or sub a technique usable class is effectively shit out of luck when it comes to healing because mates don't heal enough for the time you spend chugging them.

This pseudo-trinity doesn't transition well to PSO2 with Fo not only getting the best healing, are capable of high infinite DPS from PP sustaining skills and weapons, have Ultimate techniques, the best evasive skill, and the safety of long range.

I was fighting Odin with Bo/Hu for a while, but realized, why bother playing melee getting knocked around from launch AoEs, being insta-killed from lightning strikes, and forced to stop attacking to dodge, all while having a sub-par Resta when I can just switch to Fo/Te and DPS with a quarter of the effort? This LQ just makes the disparity of strength between classes all that more noticeable.

[Xaeris]

It's an entertaining gimmick for this one LQ since it's pretty easy, but if it were to return for more consequential content, I'd want to see it adjusted. The healing nerf should have a greater impact on passive healing than on active healing. I'm perfectly fine with mates used via Automate being nerfed to hell as they are in this quest. Stopping to drink a mate off your palette, on the other hand, is basically worthless in this quest; if you're really in dire straits, you're better off just Leeroying it and hoping for a Moon if you die since that's a more effective heal. Automate is completely idiotproof and requires zero action on the part of the user. Manually using a mate requires the user to secure a few seconds of safety to drink the mate. They shouldn't be subject to the same penalty. If it were up to me, manual mate use would be left alone and it'd be everything else that would get smacked over the head with the nerf bat while the nerf is in effect.

Same logic applied to other methods of healing. Megiverse? Should be nerfed, but not to the point where it's not worth the cast like it is here. Resta? Fine as it is here. Vampiric Blade? Neeeerf. Though a Chainsawd actually works pretty well in this LQ regardless of the nerf if you're not terrible with swords.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

While I'm fine with it validating TE's support much more, it also validates the use of FO like the rest of the content. Also FOs are much less willing to use Resta on other people unless they themselves need healing and other people just happens to be nearby. FOs also do similar to more damage than melee anyway while being at a safe distance.
Not the most terrible of ideas, but it just highlights the game's issues even further to the point where it isn't fun.


I like the idea of weaker heals, but the flat 80% to every source of healing just feels ham handed because now anyone who doesn't main or sub a technique usable class is effectively shit out of luck when it comes to healing because mates don't heal enough for the time you spend chugging them.

This pseudo-trinity doesn't transition well to PSO2 with Fo not only getting the best healing, are capable of high infinite DPS from PP sustaining skills and weapons, have Ultimate techniques, have the best evasive skill, and get the safety of long range.

I was fighting Odin with Bo/Hu for a while, but realized, why bother playing melee getting knocked around from launch AoEs, being insta-killed from lightning strikes, being forced dodge and stop attacking all the time, and having a sub-par Resta when I can just switch to Fo/Te and DPS with a quarter of the effort? This LQ just makes the disparity of strength between classes all that much more noticeable.

Thread makes me realize I haven't said nerf Fos in a while soooo...

Nerf Fos.

Quota met.

[Selphea]

I'd like to see a Fo nerf in other content before a healing nerf :wacko:

[TyroneSama]

Cut healing from Resta by an additional 60% and it would at least be fair. Healing restrictions definitely don't make sense in all content, though, especially not spread mobbing that already favors ranged and tech classes.

[Keilyn]

Hi Altiea

Healing is already too powerful in the sense one can build to have a Full Area Heal of all the characters per pulse on the average Health Max per player. In short, its like having access to a Full Cure IV spell in Final Fantasy given to all characters in range, per pulse...

I think what the game needs in the way of balance is for developers to look at the encounter speed and encounter-rate, along with the attack strength of players as well. An encounter pretty much ends before monsters have the animation to begin attacking the player characters. In most online games (and trust me, I play so many of them), the content is designed for the party-size or raid-size and tested for that size.

Games have always been about trying to win against the Meta itself, and developers knew that if one person could completely dominate the meta completely, that such a player would be unstoppable and could affect the entire community. This is the primary reason why the concept of the holy trinity was actually put together. The idea that the Meta could only be dominated in groups and each person has strength and weaknesses.

In the last 10 years, there have been games released that have eliminated the Holy Trinity, and in all of those games the dominating classes which clear the fastest have been pure DPS classes with stellar, over-the-top equipment....and in some rare cases, healers who could instant-hit and instant-cast their spells being built more for offense than just healing...

It would be nice to actually make the encounters a lot tougher for the MPA Size of 12 and make it so either the encounter can end those 12 players pretty quickly, or the 12 players will destroy them... as opposed to a single player in the MPA destroying around 10 - 20 trash mobs with 2 PA uses while the other 11 players trail behind... I mean shit... SEGA tried to make things harder by putting three bosses to spawn together in LQs, but that was still ridiculously easy...

However, that would be unlikely as SEGA took Ultimate Mode and Nerfed it to pieces just on player complaints... :(

Reason why SEGA will continue appealing to Casuals :(
[spoiler-box]The conversion rate for F2P games on average is 11% and so the best way to actually cater to the public is to listen to the public and give them what they want in ways they can use that shiny carrot to extract/extort the money they want from the public. Listening to the public means addressing the complaints of the collective majority (casuals) while not caring about the collective minority (elites). While it is not a crime to be a casual, nor a crime to be an Elite... I think with the beginning of Episode IV, along with the Animation, Phantasy Star started to become LESS about its story, universe or any part of its integrity, and more about catering to the public. That F2P label really isn't helping the integrity of the universe.....and I am sure there are plenty of people who will even tell me that all of this started the day Phantasy Star Universe became an F2P game and Guardians Cash was introduced and most Japanese players ditched that sinking ship....

Remember when PSU became less about actually working on its story and more about promoting "Project Cute?"[/spoiler-box]

[Superia]

if they nerfed resta but didnt hurt mates so much it might not be TOO bad but right now mates are almost useless

Basically this. Resta and Megiverse usually overheal to an absurd amount and have no downsides, so I would not care much if they were nerfed some (though Megiverse seems to have an insane nerf in that LQ). Mates got hurt way too much though.

[Tunga]

My force max heals is 1327 (no area boost since that shit took it to 19XX once in ULT nab burst) that's 223% my Hp on force (91% of my Hunter :p ) and my Bouncer can do near 700 for each tick. Tbh yeah i do think resta needs to be toned down a bit, but mates should also get a reduction in their animation time on it for all classes. Maybe then people will bother using them normally.


If techs weren't limited to 4 specific classes/if the damage enemies dealt was reduced, I wouldn't mind.

Right now, It's more annoying than difficult carrying around xie's 13* wand, getting hit once, and having to back off, and burn 64ppp, and extra time to heal fully as a Br.

It's not difficult. It's annoying.

How much do you heal per tick using that wand?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Haven't grinded it yet, but with just shifta drink, 93/tick when charged in the quest. 470 otherwise. I have +78% resta power and +2pp from craft.

[Tunga]

Weapon atk doesn't affect resta does it? I get higher heals with a mahime talis than ideal rod.

[Superia]

What is it, then? I thought it was based on T-ATK to some extent.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Pretty sure weapon atk does, and affixes don't.

[Altiea]

Resta power is based on your base T-ATK, which includes MAGs, Shifta Drinks, Shifta itself, and Skill Tree, but not Weapon T-ATK, Units, or Affixes.

[Tunga]

Anything that increases your T -atk will influence it. Shifta, Shifta drink, team tree, Area boost that affect atk power, mag, affixes and unit bonuses.

I just gave swiki a look and it states that weapon attack does not matter. ( unless google screwed me over :wacko: )

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Oh. Thought weapon ATK does. Saves me lambdas then.

[Altiea]

Remember when PSU became less about actually working on its story and more about promoting "Project Cute?"

Sorry, I only have Zero and IV under my belt, so I can't make any calls on PSU's story. Although, didn't they release the Portable saga in PSU's place?

[Madevil]

hey, anyone remember how annoying the e-codes were in Chaotic Roar of the Dragon?

if they throw all these shit in a limit quest with healing nerf later this year, how does it sound?

[Tunga]

The first portable was just a mini PSU with a different story. Portable 2 brought new mechanics like Just guard, "steps", chains, etc. (atleast i think it did for the series). Portable 2 Infinity brought the Dewmans.

[SteveCZ]

Yay for LQ with healing nerf and endless poison rain and gehl buffs from the start. :-)

[Dammy]

absolutely YAY , without a doubt !
even after nerf , resta can heal over 1000 with full ticks

[Rakurai]

The healing nerf feels like how healing should've been to begin with.

It's way too easy to stay alive when an uncharged custom Resta is enough to undo most damage completely, while a charged Resta basically invalidates anything other then OHKOs as long as it's pulsing.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The healing nerf feels like how healing should've been to begin with.

It's way too easy to stay alive when an uncharged custom Resta is enough to undo most damage completely, while a charged Resta basically invalidates anything other then OHKOs as long as it's pulsing.

When you nerf healing, but leave everything else in the game as is, people will still stop to heal when they take damage like before. It just gets far more tedious and slows the pace of the game down.

[AsinineWaffle]

I wouldn't mind seeing some single party content made with this healing nerf so long as it's tweaked. Like y'know, mates being bumped up so they're not absolutely useless.

[aiMute]

I kinda like it but from the side it looks like disguised Fo/Te buff, and that class combo is the last one in "needs buff" list. Good geared Fo/Te heals slower but it's heals are still powerful enough. What makes one more careful are completely useless mates - it's easier to die and get resurrected than use a mate, and that's completely not pso2 mechanic.

[Keilyn]

Feels like a Rehash of the Obvious

1) SEGA reveals their lack of planning and suddenly rush out a collaborative.
2) Player-base complains, but still gives their money to SEGA to preserve their 8% Conversion Rate
3) Players eventually figure out the MPA, get their stuff, and move on to the next thing...

...and the cycle repeats.

So when is Phantasy Star going to return to what its supposed to be?
Between Episode IV and Endless Collaborations, can this still evenly be called PSO-2?

[Kintama]

Definitely, added to that should exist a moon limitation, these two would add a sense of danger in the game, as in if you fight recklessly you could die, and for once dying would have consequences, pretty much enhances the sense of immersion in the game imo.

[Sirius-91]

Feels like a Rehash of the Obvious

1) SEGA reveals their lack of planning and suddenly rush out a collaborative.
2) Player-base complains, but still gives their money to SEGA to preserve their 8% Conversion Rate
3) Players eventually figure out the MPA, get their stuff, and move on to the next thing...

...and the cycle repeats.

So when is Phantasy Star going to return to what its supposed to be?
Between Episode IV and Endless Collaborations, can this still evenly be called PSO-2?

Considering PSO1 had collabs with AOL and Yahoo! Japan, I'd say yes.

[Zephyrion]

For the healing thing, I'd just nerf resta more (healing is more difficult, but a single healer can make the whole party completely safe, where there should be at least 2 for that to happen), re-up megiverse a bit (just to get out of the "completely useless" section, and as it was said keep automate nerfed, but don't nerf the mates altogether.

Also am I the only one satisfied with the LQ ? I mean even if it's relatively easy, it's still like the second LQ we ever got which isn't " faceroll your keyboard and call it a day". Things hurt enough to keep it interesting while still being accessible enough for newer players.

[Hrith]

If SEGA did that, they'd have to help with party making, then, to make sure an MPA has 2~3 healers and not 0.
I'm all for defining roles in PSO2, but they'd have to be relevant and right now, few players care.

You cannot nerf mates as much as you nerf Resta or Megiverse, as many people have said already.

They may have to reduce the damage some bosses deal, but PLEASE do not reduce the HP of monsters...

[gabor100]

Yay, let's make Guard Stance great.

[Selphea]

The thing about roles is Fo with Tech Charge Parry can fill Tank, Ranged DPS or Heals while every other class does 2 at max, except maybe geared Su with Maron rotation.

[Dammy]

i dont think Tech Charge Parry makes FO a tank

[Selphea]

Paired with Mirage Step it does!

[Shiyo]

Auto-mate halfline and massive hunter need deleted from the game.

No real nerfs needed to actual healing.

[黒雪Yacchi]

And basically make the game Fo/Te Star Online because melee would be useless at that point because it doesnt have a reliable heal. No thanks

[Sirius-91]

Auto-mate halfline and massive hunter need deleted from the game.

No real nerfs needed to actual healing.

As someone who uses those actively, that would make the game really hard, but the fun of it would be amazing.

[Raujinn]

You wouldn't need to touch enemy HP as that's unaffected by any healing changes anyway. You might have to change a fair number of other issues PSO2 has though if you want healing to be nerfed, particularly if you want the game to not become a frustrating mess.

1) Enemy and boss damage would need to be reduced. Sure healing is powerful right now, but so are enemy attacks. A lot of things can 3-shot you and others 2-shot. 1-shots are rare, however. But the thing is this isn't a simple fix, because some enemy and boss attacks are mechanically meant to be a threat so a blanket nerf would potentially ruin some things.

2) Fuckin flinch-lock. Most of my deaths are due to getting clipped by a random attack which renders me unable to do anything about the incoming ones. Tone this shit down. This is probably why a lot of people even take automate to counter this irritation (as well as for classes which need to charge attacks or are vulnerable during their most powerful ones). There's a number of ways they could do this, plain removing it wouldn't be great (there has to be some risk to hopping into the middle of a pile of enemies). Off the top of my head, after getting flinched twice you're immune to the next one for a short time. Gives you a chance to get away and not be rendered utterly helpless for as long as the AI decides it's going to attack.

3) As mentioned, the non-teching classes need some method of upkeep. I actually don't think the self-heals are terribly overpowered right now given their use time and how long they root you for. Basically it's as said earlier; if everything else in the game stayed the same you'd have to spend 2-3x more time to heal, which slows the pacing of the game down. You know how slow it is to use a Trimate. How fun is it right now to use 3 in a row?

4) Mate use. If you're going to nerf mates, for goodness sake change how they work on use. If they retained their current use time and the immobilise time after the heal, then you might as well remove self heals for how useful they are (see the current LQ. Mates might as well not exist there). Either get rid of that immob, let us cancel out of a heal or let us slowly move while healing ala Dark Souls (wouldn't mind the chugging mechanic from that either).

5) Leave the reaction heals alone. Just reversal recover, Just Guard Heal and so on. These do not need nerfing at all. Things like Guard Stance's heal on enemy deaths should also be left alone.

6) Remove the block system, have better matchmaking to ensure roles are filled in MPAs. It's frustrating enough to abandon because there's no Weakbullet on some EQs, it'd be worse if you had to abandon because there's no WB AND no Techer.


That's all I can think of for now. Short point is reducing healing over the entire game highlights other balancing and mechanical issues that they'd need to address. Some of them they might, others they can't. I'm not arguing they're all of equal important or that just because they couldn't address specific concerns of mine that they couldn't then facilitate a blanket healing nerf, just pointing out that it's potentially a lot more complicated than changing one or two numbers. Also because such a change runs the risk of making this game even more FoTe Star Online than it is...

I actually don't disagree with the idea! It's just I feel there's a lot of areas where the overall feel of the game could be preserved while encouraging more teamwork or just feeling more involving in general.

[nguuuquaaa]

Auto-mate halfline and massive hunter need deleted from the game.

No real nerfs needed to actual healing.

Automate Halfline, no way. Tech classes have Megiverse/Resta and melee classes have what?
Massive Hunter, no way. DS and knuckle PAs have NO super armor at all while all other melee weapons do, why gimp them more?

[Shiyo]

Auto-mate halfline is borderline god mode and actually lets you press massive hunter, do your entire dps rotation, and ignore 95% of a bosses attacks/mechanics on a majority of things.

How can you defend it?

How can you compare that to having to charge and cast(which can be interrupted) megiverse and resta? Resta/megiverse is a dps loss, uses PP, takes time to charge and isn't instant.

Auto-mate halfline basically turns the game into auto-pilotmode, and when combined with massive hunter you can turn your entire brain off while you mindlessly DPS things and outheal all their damage.

Again, how can you defend auto-mate halfline? It dumbs the game down, it ruins its difficulty, and it makes things much easier WITHOUT ANY USER INTERACTION.

All those things are bad for the future and health of the game, doubly so since it doesn't require any user input at all to heal yourself. It's awful.

Balancing around such horribly designed mechanics will just make the game horrible. Automate needs removed so that classes that use it can be rebalanced around it not being there anymore.

edit: Also complaining about "but every weapon but two have super armor!" which means peoples playstyle revolves around using super armor PA's and then relying on an auto-cast self heal(automate half line) to keep them alive. That's HORRIBLE. That is so, so, so, bad. Can you not see how bad that is? That people are playing around a passive auto-cast heal that keeps them alive while they just mash damage buttons through bosses attacks?

What happened to dodging? Just guarding? Timing PA's inbetween mob attacks? Is that not what we should be striving to encourage? Do you honestly believe it's ok to balance the entire game around auto-mate half line's existence and trying to make people just mash their PA buttons with little care in the world because their passive mates will keep them alive while their super armor lets them spam damage and stunlock things?

You should be wanting the game to be HARDER and the combat to be BETTER, like it was before the masses discovered automate, and super armor was added to so many PA's or people discovered you could just use super armor PA's and rely on auto-mate halfline to keep you alive instead of strategically timing PA's and attacks inbetween just guards, dodges, and enemy attacks.

Which sounds better for the health and future of the game?

[FireswordRus]

You wouldn't need to touch enemy HP as that's unaffected by any healing changes anyway. You might have to change a fair number of other issues PSO2 has though if you want healing to be nerfed, particularly if you want the game to not become a frustrating mess.

1) Enemy and boss damage would need to be reduced. Sure healing is powerful right now, but so are enemy attacks. A lot of things can 3-shot you and others 2-shot. 1-shots are rare, however. But the thing is this isn't a simple fix, because some enemy and boss attacks are mechanically meant to be a threat so a blanket nerf would potentially ruin some things.


Dont need reduce boss damage or ppl like me can fight agains 5-6 boses at 1 time:) right now i am can easy fight agains 3 Boses with full attack tree as Fi/Hu. Add stamina III and all resist III to units, and use HP drink, this enoughe to survive

[Shiyo]

Dont need reduce boss damage or ppl like me can fight agains 5-6 boses at 1 time:) right now i am can easy fight agains 3 Boses with full attack tree as Fi/Hu. Add stamina III and all resist III to units, and use HP drink, this enoughe to survive

This is pretty much the exact problem with automate halfline. Thank you for this.

[黒雪Yacchi]

For most people Stamina III is an afterthought on most units/weapons. Most go for 100+ attack and I'm also sure many opt for Shifta drink rather than HP

[FireswordRus]

This is pretty much the exact problem with automate halfline. Thank you for this.
Yes automate helpl a lot, but affixes give more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4TTbKSsXwg

even with active LB i am can take 6-7 shot from XH boses...and a lot w/o LB

[Raujinn]

Dont need reduce boss damage or ppl like me can fight agains 5-6 boses at 1 time:) right now i am can easy fight agains 3 Boses with full attack tree as Fi/Hu. Add stamina III and all resist III to units, and use HP drink, this enoughe to survive

You do know I'm talking about if healing was nerfed, right? Not as it currently is....

[elryan]

Resta and Megiverse can be nerfed, I don't mind.

Mates and other forms of healing? No way. Melee classes are still outclassed by Tech classes by leaps and bounds. NO reason to gimp them even further.

[Shiyo]

Resta and Megiverse can be nerfed, I don't mind.

Mates and other forms of healing? No way. Melee classes are still outclassed by Tech classes by leaps and bounds. NO reason to gimp them even further.
If you're balancing melee around massive hunter and auto-mate half line, you should be fired and have failed as a balance team.

Is FO overpowered? Yes.

Should melee be balanced around braindead mechanics? No.

The proper way to balance FO and melee is to make it so that melee does 2-3x more damage to single targets while FO is there for mobbing and support(zanverse, shifta, deband, megiverse, resta, super treatment, zondeel). There's no reason that casters should bring so much support and utility while also doing top damage to every mob type.

You know, how it was back in the day before spooky hands, namegid, illbarta, and and now compound techs and ragrants.

[FireswordRus]

You do know I'm talking about if healing was nerfed, right? Not as it currently is....

Ok, on odin with active LB, i am add 1 tree w/o automate (add it to flash guard). add TA what boost mates% and trimate restore 25% of my HP (it is 700 hp it is pretty enough and with LB it is 175HP). I can easy stop and use 4 trimates in critical situation...after 2 uses all seen , what i am have low hp, and sometimes they use resta
I am be very glad if they nerf heal for all item and system to 80% in the future EQ.

[Raujinn]

At least you do recognise that Melee has problems right now, even if you don't think Automate and Massive Hunter are the right solutions.

I would ask then, what would you change so that Melee can mitigate the risk of being in melee range any further? Anything about flinch-lock? Their defenses? You've already addressed damage, but all that damage is for nought if Melee still keels over to 2 hits. Essentially, really, without those two skills Melee is only marginally less fragile than Force which if you then also nerf mate healing so that Force is the only class that can reliably heal itself well then what the heck does melee have over force?


Ok, on odin with active LB, i am add 1 tree w/o automate (add it to flash guard). add TA what boost mates% and trimate restore 25% of my HP (it is 700 hp it is pretty enough and with LB it is 175HP). I can easy stop and use 4 trimates in critical situation...after 2 uses all seen , what i am have low hp, and sometimes they use resta
I am be very glad if they nerf heal for all item and system to 80% in the future EQ.

That's an awful long time you're spending healing! You're also sacrificing a significant amount of damage, though credit where it's due you have managed to find a way to be durable and still deal reasonable damage, which most defensive builds fail to do.

[Shiyo]

You shouldn't be getting hit.
Yes, the skill cap of melee will be massively higher than ranged(because ranged gets to ignore 95% of every bosses mechanics in this game), but if you make them do 3-4x the damage of a ranged, the reward:effort ratio is pretty much fine.

Melee should be the strongest and best single target/bossing classes, because they don't have a 5 hour iframe dodge and have to actually be in melee range and tackle boss mechanics, while ranged doesn't. Ragrants makes you be melee range, but is still pretty far and charge parry ring can block a lot of damage with 0 thought behind it, and you still have dodge.

Just make melee better, Really, that's it. Remove automate halfline, remove massive hunter, and make melee the best DPS in the game by over 2x the damage. They deserve it.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

If you're balancing melee around massive hunter and auto-mate half line, you should be fired and have failed as a balance team.

Is FO overpowered? Yes.

Should melee be balanced around braindead mechanics? No.

The proper way to balance FO and melee is to make it so that melee does 2-3x more damage to single targets while FO is there for mobbing and support(zanverse, shifta, deband, megiverse, resta, super treatment, zondeel). There's no reason that casters should bring so much support and utility while also doing top damage to every mob type.

You know, how it was back in the day before spooky hands, namegid, illbarta, and and now compound techs and ragrants.

I agree automate needs some changes.

You haven't made a single point about why massive hunter needs to go other than marrying it to automate, which we know automate isn't fine.

Massive hunter has a limited duration, and a cooldown. It's fine. In some ways tech charge parry ring accomplishes the same damn thing with no cooldown.

[Shiyo]

It'd probably be ok to keep it in the game if automate was gone, you're right.
The combination of the two is just braindead gaming.

[FireswordRus]

At least you do recognise that Melee has problems right now, even if you don't think Automate and Massive Hunter are the right solutions.

I would ask then, what would you change so that Melee can mitigate the risk of being in melee range any further? Anything about flinch-lock? Their defenses? You've already addressed damage, but all that damage is for nought if Melee still keels over to 2 hits. Essentially, really, without those two skills Melee is only marginally less fragile than Force which if you then also nerf mate healing so that Force is the only class that can reliably heal itself well then what the heck does melee have over force?

Melee have problem only with they 175 S-atk affixes and it is only 1 problem. just need balance with atk and def affixes 75-100 atk max on unit, other for def affixes e.g power IV+modulator +soul +all resist III+Stamina III+ noble stamina

[Raujinn]

If their damage was that much higher, it's true that the risk would pay off more. Consider at it is right now, for some bosses they have to spend more time dodging than they do actually attacking. If you think about it, this wouldn't be a problem so much on the occasion where they do actually get to attack because at least then they'd do decent damage in their (relatively) more limited opportunities compared to other classes.

However, I disagree that the solution is that simple. There's likely a lot of complication that you're not considering and I'm probably not as well. For example, if you boost melee damage that much then you basically make Firesword's build the go-to brainless build, even without automate. (No offense to Firesword, I actually really like his bizarre build)


Melee have problem only with they 175 S-atk affixes and it is only 1 problem. just need balance with atk and def affixes 75-100 atk max on unit, other for def affixes e.g power IV+modulator +soul +all resist III+Stamina III+ noble stamina

I don't disagree, it's just you're talking about 6-slotting here. Even using less desirable affixes that's hella expensve an investment for something that.. is a much harder sell than "deal more damage" in a game where the main goal (thanks to design) is RUSH RUSH RUSH

[Shiyo]

If their damage was that much higher, it's true that the risk would pay off more. Consider at it is right now, for some bosses they have to spend more time dodging than they do actually attacking. If you think about it, this wouldn't be a problem so much on the occasion where they do actually get to attack because at least then they'd do decent damage in their (relatively) more limited opportunities compared to other classes.
Yeah pretty much. They keep adding so many bosses that are basically not meleeable half the time. The toy robot darker boss idotta thing in kuron is an example of that. You can barely melee that thing half the time, while as a ranged I can sit max distance and DPS it the entire duration.

[elryan]

If you're balancing melee around massive hunter and auto-mate half line, you should be fired and have failed as a balance team.

Is FO overpowered? Yes.

Should melee be balanced around braindead mechanics? No.

The proper way to balance FO and melee is to make it so that melee does 2-3x more damage to single targets while FO is there for mobbing and support(zanverse, shifta, deband, megiverse, resta, super treatment, zondeel). There's no reason that casters should bring so much support and utility while also doing top damage to every mob type.

You know, how it was back in the day before spooky hands, namegid, illbarta, and and now compound techs and ragrants.

But automate is not a braindead mechanics.

You literally only have only 20x chance of surviving your next hit (If the next hit is not an insta-kill move. You generally don't buy monomate for this reason.)

That chance is finite and not replenishable in-dungeon, unlike those uncharged 1-tick 1000 HP resta which can be cast infinitely and without delay.

That chance is also further reduced by the fact that you often use mates manually out of the battle and due to bosses ping-pong you to death.

If you gimp that finite chance even further, it would be a huge middle finger to melees.

If mates are to be nerfed (hence disabling automates), Resta needs to be nerfed to the point where you need 4-5 seconds to cast it in order to heal a decent amount (40%-70% max HP only) then put on a massive cooldown (2-3 minutes between usage) so that it's theoretically finite and similar to how mates work.


What?

20x = 10 Dimates and 10 Trimates.

Jesus, it's as if you never use automate but wants to bash it just to look pro.


Sure chose a weird way of phrasing that.

He mentioned 'chance' when there is none with 10/10 automate. Only things that have a chance of killing you is damage while lagging, or being one-shot from <50% HP. And yes of course I never carried monomates for a long time because it could get you killed.

THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED CHANCE, YOU BRAT.

YOU DON'T ALWAYS LIVE WHEN YOU GOT HIT TWICE IN A ROW BECAUSE LAG / INSTANT-KILL ATTACKS.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

At least you do recognise that Melee has problems right now, even if you don't think Automate and Massive Hunter are the right solutions.

I would ask then, what would you change so that Melee can mitigate the risk of being in melee range any further? Anything about flinch-lock? Their defenses? You've already addressed damage, but all that damage is for nought if Melee still keels over to 2 hits.

This is why I craft two of my three units for HP. It's the difference between being two shottable, and 3 shottable for me, and that's kind of a big deal.

Flinch lock screws everyone, though not necessarily equally.

[Raujinn]

I do too, I'm sitting around 1200HP or so but there's still some enemies tuned so high that I can still get 1 or 2 shot by some things, though they're mostly fair. It's mostly buffed bosses or buffed PD where suddenly oneshots start raining down.

I think the general agreement is that melee has issues, to which some feel Automate is a lazy solution and that ultimately it's melee that's due to suffer the most if they did a blanket healing nerf.

[FireswordRus]

Br have katana combat +block, Bouncer have Photon blade fever/escape, Hunter have Super armor+all block+MH, Fighter have MH+LB and DC(c). All melee have enoughe skill to do awsome damage and ignore incoming damage for short time. After this u can heal urself or wait for resta. Fi got superior invisible frame with new deadly circle. i am think what ~2000 HP for melee resolve heal nerf problem. And automate not useless, i am did some test with def buff from tree, def drink, buff from Te and automates with trimates work fine on odin with active LB, yes i am lose some dps given buy S-atk, but i am can safety use LB again ,what give me + ~33% dps

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

But automate is not a braindead mechanics.

It allows for braindead playstyles for any weapon that abuses super armor. That's something you can't deny.

Massive hunter happens to allow this for any weapon, and any attack, but on it's own, it's fine.

Depending on quest type and length, I'd have no need to parry or dodge, and just spam guren tessen for example.

It takes cost of getting hit entirely out of the equation. Sure you lose a mate either way, but you don't lose time healing, which is something even Fos have to put up with. I'd be fine with quickmate being inherent to the use of mates, and not a Br-only skill.


You literally only have only 20x chance of surviving your next hit (If the next hit is not an insta-kill move.

What?



And automate not useless

Probably feels that way for you because:


i am think what ~2000 HP for melee resolve heal nerf problem.

[Raujinn]

I think he means you have 20 healing items, as in 10 Dimates and 10 Trimates. Thus, you can autoheal yourself a max of 20 times. You can throw in Monomates but thats generally risky as that can leave you below the 50% threshold.

[nguuuquaaa]

Unless melee classes have some kind of buff to compensate for how they are in range of all attack patterns thus spending more time to survive than actual combat but even in ideal condition still have less damage than FO, I'll still encourage Automate/Massive Hunter build.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I think he means you have 20 healing items

Sure chose a weird way of phrasing that.

He mentioned 'chance' when there is none with 10/10 automate. Only things that have a chance of killing you is damage while lagging, or being one-shot from <50% HP. And yes of course I never carried monomates for a long time because it could get you killed.


Unless melee classes have some kind of buff to compensate for how they are in range of all attack patterns thus spending more time to survive than actual combat but even in ideal condition still have less damage than FO, I'll still encourage Automate/Massive Hunter build.

I'd hope it's something more interesting than 'moar damage'.

Could always just nerf Fos so they're not heavily outpacing melee in most scenarios in damage, with their risk reduction on top.

[FireswordRus]

i am playing a lot with OP and can say, what Fi doing same damage as Fo/Te. I am talking about full geared Fo and me. Spam LB all time eliminates difference.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

i am playing a lot with OP and can say, what Fi doing same damage as Fo/Te. I am talking about full geared Fo and me. Spam LB all time eliminates difference.

1: I said most scenarios
2: You're spamming limit break
3: You have 2k HP

Nothing there is normal, and you're in melee range the entire time.

[Shiyo]

There's just really no reason that force should be doing the most AOE and single target damage while being ranged.
It makes absolutely no sense.

[NoobSpectre]

Then... why not just buff hunter hp grow formula to the point that... say, 200-300 more hp?
Or just put it in a skill, 10 points for like 1k hp plus never flinching but if you sub it become 300 bonus instead, with flinching.
Then kill that automate, or massive, or both.

PS: plus another 50% more generation of hate from mobs.

[itsbao93]

Readjust the percentile need a bit and it's completely fine.

[isCasted]

Best buff for melee would be better cancel frames for everything. Using mates should make you stand in one place unable to react to unpredictable enemy attacks. Successfully parrying one attack shouldn't make you vulnerable to the next twelve.

Also, it would be better if we could affect the way lengthy PAs work once we unleash them ala Ignition Parry. For example, jumping during Ride Slasher to dodge, using step during Nova Strike etc.

Also, better gap closing mechanics.

Players should get more control over their characters. Stuff like Automate and crafted Deadly Circle only dumb things down.

[Tenlade]

There's just really no reason that force should be doing the most AOE and single target damage while being ranged.
It makes absolutely no sense.

also highest healing, a fo/te does more per resta then a te/anything.

[Shadowstarkirby]

Just some examples of what Melee could use:

-Cheaper PAs and better PP recovery on hit (looking at you, Partizan).

-Reduced hitstun when cleaving enemies (looking at you, Sword).

-Make all melee PAs cancelable with step (looking at you, Gunslash...also make Gunslash relevant).

-Natural flinch, knockdown, and launch resistance.

-A skill to recover out of helplessness in the air after being launched.

-A skill to recover from knockdown faster if a Just Reversal is missed.

-A less wonky step (I often get hit trying to step through Double's wall).

-Fix juggling bullshit.

[Superia]

Just some examples of what Melee could use:

-Cheaper PAs and better PP recovery on hit (looking at you, Partizan).

-Reduced hitstun when cleaving enemies (looking at you, Sword).

-Make all melee PAs cancelable with step (looking at you, Gunslash...also make Gunslash relevant).

-Natural flinch, knockdown, and launch resistance.

-A skill to recover out of helplessness in the air after being launched.

-A skill to recover from knockdown faster if a Just Reversal is missed.

-A less wonky step (I often get hit trying to step through Double's wall).

-Fix juggling bullshit.

Most of the later things are just things that should be fixed in general. The sword having such massive hitstop on connection makes it feel pretty strong, but it is has never done enough damage to warrant that, especially when the strongest things in the game have no hitstop (e.g. WB/CT Gu/Ra, Banish/CT Br/Gu, compounds etc.). And it was always sort of odd to me that melee classes struggled more with PP than the others.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

And it was always sort of odd to me that melee classes struggled more with PP than the others.

Haha man I remember the days when shit like sonic arrow cost 30pp while Fos had PP costs and PP regen they currently have now...

[tsundere4you]

Resta nerf is fine and what I would like it to be at for the entire game. Rather than nerfing mate HP restored I asked in the survey to reduce the max number of dimates to 7 and trimates to 5. That would impact automate halfline's usefulness as well. They could also make mates heal less if activated with automate so there's some downside to just eating attacks and not blocking/dodging.

[wefwq]

Resta > Increased PP cost and cast time, maybe disable certain skill/latent to make cast time faster too.
Mates > Double drink animation duration, can only bring 5/3/2. Disable quick mate skill.

Effect for both still the same however, it just harder and more annoying to recover HP.

Megiverse > Effective duration decreased dramatically or/and effect decreased to only 2,5% we're too OP, right :wacko:

[Zephyrion]

My idea for automate would simply to give it a cooldown instead of changing how it works. the idea of a safety net is nice for HU, but it should come with some kind of drawback.

Then again that'd mean SEGA would have to add something to the HUD to display that cooldown.

So not happening ever I guess :3

[NightfallG]

Resta > Increased PP cost and cast time, maybe disable certain skill/latent to make cast time faster too.
Mates > Double drink animation duration, can only bring 5/3/2. Disable quick mate skill.

Effect for both still the same however, it just harder and more annoying to recover HP.

Megiverse > Effective duration decreased dramatically or/and effect decreased to only 2,5% we're too OP, right :wacko:

Ehh, 5/3/2 sounds way too negative. 10/7/5 would be a happy median.

Keeping Quick Mate/Automate would also be balanced in this way, perhaps reduce the amount healed by Dimates to 35%-40% of maxHP instead of what they are currently. Keep Tri and Mono at the same rate because I'm pretty sure a lower stock of Tri would justify the full heal and Mono is lower than even a 35%/40% Di, iirc.

The real issue is, there's no real punishing patterns, bosses are still too squishy, and damage is too high especially for certain classes, FO/TE being the biggest offender.

If SEGA isn't willing to deliver content that changes that paradigm in a meaningful way, the healing nerf as it is in the Odin quest is just an obnoxious rider, not what the game really needs.

[fanfred]

i like it , can help make you a better moving and striking player by voiding effective mates

[Great Pan]

No way, man. I wanna play easy games, not ball-busting hard ones. Automate and MH is totally fine for me.

[ArcaneTechs]

jesus christ are people seriously still pissed off about this for ONE quest in the game that has this? Hell they might as well add this to everything, maybe people will learn to play better

>Nerf healing
>play better
>implying it'll teach people to get good
>implying you should just go play something else then

give it a rest guys, k bye

[Shiyo]

No way, man. I wanna play easy games, not ball-busting hard ones. Automate and MH is totally fine for me.

You're what's killing video games.

[Selphea]

Auto-mate halfline is borderline god mode and actually lets you press massive hunter, do your entire dps rotation, and ignore 95% of a bosses attacks/mechanics on a majority of things.

How can you defend it?

How can you compare that to having to charge and cast(which can be interrupted) megiverse and resta? Resta/megiverse is a dps loss, uses PP, takes time to charge and isn't instant.

Auto-mate halfline basically turns the game into auto-pilotmode, and when combined with massive hunter you can turn your entire brain off while you mindlessly DPS things and outheal all their damage.

Again, how can you defend auto-mate halfline? It dumbs the game down, it ruins its difficulty, and it makes things much easier WITHOUT ANY USER INTERACTION.

All those things are bad for the future and health of the game, doubly so since it doesn't require any user input at all to heal yourself. It's awful.

Balancing around such horribly designed mechanics will just make the game horrible. Automate needs removed so that classes that use it can be rebalanced around it not being there anymore.

edit: Also complaining about "but every weapon but two have super armor!" which means peoples playstyle revolves around using super armor PA's and then relying on an auto-cast self heal(automate half line) to keep them alive. That's HORRIBLE. That is so, so, so, bad. Can you not see how bad that is? That people are playing around a passive auto-cast heal that keeps them alive while they just mash damage buttons through bosses attacks?

What happened to dodging? Just guarding? Timing PA's inbetween mob attacks? Is that not what we should be striving to encourage? Do you honestly believe it's ok to balance the entire game around auto-mate half line's existence and trying to make people just mash their PA buttons with little care in the world because their passive mates will keep them alive while their super armor lets them spam damage and stunlock things?

You should be wanting the game to be HARDER and the combat to be BETTER, like it was before the masses discovered automate, and super armor was added to so many PA's or people discovered you could just use super armor PA's and rely on auto-mate halfline to keep you alive instead of strategically timing PA's and attacks inbetween just guards, dodges, and enemy attacks.

Which sounds better for the health and future of the game?

Actually (Concentrated) Megiverse can't really be interrupted anymore because of Tech Charge Parry. Think Massive Hunter except no downtime and you don't take damage :wacko:

Not really defending it but hey if Sega took what was broken and decided to make it even more broken then chances are they won't be 180ing in the other direction anytime soon.

I do prefer C9 and Soul Worker's mechanics where characters are beefy and can take multiple hits but healing is very weak so it really becomes a matter of not taking damage unnecessarily. A few hits won't kill you but take enough damage over the mission and you won't be able to outheal.

[Tenlade]

All nerfing resta would do is make me have to spam it more, and thats not fun to play or even half as endgaging as healing classes in other games that have some actual form of management aspect to it.
also without healing people would just resort to iron will more, and if you took that away, and then they'd just hang on you reviving them.
And I love how aboslutely no one remembered in all thier nerf suggestions that star atomizers and the "we still sell these for some reason" cosmo atomizers exist.

[ArcaneTechs]

I haven't bought a Cosmo Atomizer since Vita CBT but i never bought them however it is the dumbest thing to be paying for, if anything they should have been like 10-20k ea in the npc shop by now

[Youmu Konpaku]

Just remove all healing methods including mates, resta and megiverse. Done ! :wacko:

[Tunga]

Cosmo Atomizer must be the most retarded item in the AC shop.

[sparab]

You support nepal's earthquake rebuild effort with every cosmo atomizer you have bought.

[ArcaneTechs]

You support nepal's earthquake rebuild effort with every cosmo atomizer you have bought.
i forgot about this but we all know 98% of that went to more fate stay collabs

[HentaiLolicon]

How about just shut down this fucking game? It'll make everyone happy, no more salt or hard feelings

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

How about just shut down this fucking game? It'll make everyone happy, no more salt or hard feelings

People are salty because they care.

Obviously you don't. Why post? To complain about people complaining I assume.

[sesiom000]

Instead of nerfing the player heal why dont they just make the enemies deal more damage and odin actually fighting instead of just standing there with his horse that only gives him height LOL.
They knew it was going to be impossible for anyone to die since pso2 is an action rpg and ff14 is a traditional mmorpg so they nerfed the pso2 mechanics.
Bad move since the game is designed to work with the mate slow animation mechanic its slow on vanilla but heals a bunch, here you better off with resta.
For melee classes its a bit of a nuincance since sometimes your on the the heat of combat and you cant cancel your attacks fast enough while the ranged classes have far more mobility than the melee ones.
And they nerfed automate indirectly with this making players waste points on they're tanker builds (like me) when i could use those points that are now basically useless in getting more attack power etc.
So yea thanks SEGA for ruining tanker melee class builds even more with this map.
The best quest they added recently was the updated pd since its actually a boss fight and you feel that tension and the enemy attack have much more consistence and a actual threat to the player.
Btw i think this quest is so easy since you can nerf a character but you cant nerf the player skill, and the enemies of this map are slowpokes compared to much more fast paced games like dark souls series.

[Saffran]

Quite frankly, if melee (possibly non-magic users?) could retain the "correct" healing amount to mates/just guard/just recover I would be totally fine with it.
Megiverse healing for 50k HP when you have like 1200 on a run-of-the-mill build is stupid anyway.
As far as tankers are concerned, I think they quite shine in this quest, but obviously they can't be relied upon for raw damage (which sadly is the best defense in this game). And even then, I took over 1000 HP in damage from Falz Angel the other day, which is something even the new PD cannot achieve. I suspect they did boost boss damage significantly.

[Raujinn]

The end bosses for area 1 and 2 of the quest are boosted, so they deal significantly higher damage than they do normally among other things (such as having considerably more HP)

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The end bosses for area 1 and 2 of the quest are boosted, so they deal significantly higher damage than they do normally among other things

They seriously shouldn't though.

This is the one thing I hate about the healing nerf; that change seems made in a vacuum, and nothing else besides spawn positions have really changed when it should as a result of healing output being crippled.

[Masu]

Fun fact is that I find Angel (and most other boss) deadlier than Odin because we're bothered by tight areas and camera clipping while Odin is in flat open area When you start to get used to it's atk pattern things become a lot easier. Tho I got once an helmless Odin spawn in place of Elder/Angel and it was a carnage. Switching to set 1 of Ideal help a lot for survavibility.

[MightyHarken]

You keep talking about melee classes and massive hunter/automate, but seriously, these skills serve a very important role in ranger, because we need to stand still to get Standing Snipe to remain activated.

[aiMute]

You keep talking about melee classes and massive hunter/automate, but seriously, these skills serve a very important role in ranger, because we need to stand still to get Standing Snipe to remain activated.

I want to bitch about Ra because it's the only class that has no active defense other than 0.15s roll with long delay, even totally-not-good-at-everything FoTe can go tank pro with charge guard rings. Oh, right, Ra rings, I want to bitch about it too!

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

You keep talking about melee classes and massive hunter/automate, but seriously, these skills serve a very important role in ranger, because we need to stand still to get Standing Snipe to remain activated.

Thought people were in general agreement that massive hunter is fine.

Automate on the other hand...

[Zephiron]

Healing is definitely high for a game like this. Yes, I am guilty of wanting those heals in the moment when I'm actually playing the game. However, when look at it more critically, it does kill the difficulty of the game. That said, I do not think healing needs too much of a nerf, but a change altogether. Aiming at Resta, I would prefer it doing percentage healing (Lvl 1 would be around a monomate's level of healing for all ticks, and max level would be diamate's) with the healing INDIVIDUALIZED on each character present. However, even if a healing nerf were to come in for Resta, there is the issue of Mates, and the classes that can abuse Automate.

The core issue comes from the class balancing. Melee users that do not have access to super armor or heals are innately in a weaker position due to being bursted down before they can do any significant damage. The problem? This game HEAVILY favors DPS over tanking. If a Hunter were to go for a Guard stance style build, they not only sacrifice a lot of damage, but their tankiness isn't even enough to survive later enemies from my observations. In this situation, a stronger offense is the best defense. Yes, you have Just Guards, but do NOT expect to get them perfect all the time. You can use a normal guard if need be, but you would still take damage and the animation slows after getting during the guard is painfully slow.

Melee classes here, speficially Hunter, have high-risk, medium reward style gameplay if they don't abuse Auto + Massive Hunter or don't use their I-frame/super armor abilities (it's the player's own fault if they don't learn to use dodge abilities on Fighter classes and the like). But the ranged classes, the main culprit being Fo/Te (Ra can be an exception due to Standing Snipe), can easily put out more DPS for less effort and still have more supportive qualities.

For Melee classes, buffing their damage would be needed for them to match the other classes, but also have more survivability in either DEF or HP. If HP, the method I suggested would gain more benefit from resta, while the lower HP classes have diminishing returns.

[MightyHarken]

Buff damage for melee classes? I would agree on this with hunter, but not fighter. Hunter needs a single enemy high damage burst PA for the sword, something like lifting the sword high up and finishing off with a down strike with 4500% power

[Zephiron]

Buff damage for melee classes? I would agree on this with hunter, but not fighter. Hunter needs a single enemy high damage burst PA for the sword, something like lifting the sword high up and finishing off with a down strike with 4500% power

How would it look? Would it look similar to Kazan-nadeshiko with some other catch to it?

[MightyHarken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owym0wXyi2s go to minute 7:25

[Altiea]

Give us Tornado Meteor as a PA. Fast execution, multihit AOE and deals rather obscene damage.

[Tunga]

You keep talking about melee classes and massive hunter/automate, but seriously, these skills serve a very important role in ranger, because we need to stand still to get Standing Snipe to remain activated.

All you need to worry about is supplying your mpa with WB ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owym0wXyi2s go to minute 7:25

You mean this
https://youtu.be/1El46ggI1mI?t=6

[Superia]

Thought people were in general agreement that massive hunter is fine.

Automate on the other hand...

Super armor and automatic healing are both necessary for standing still while attacking in this game. If you are too close to the enemy (which, until Rangers get Force's infinite range, is always), only the most egregious of HP stacking will let you take more than maybe 3 hits at the highest difficulty, and fewer than that if any single enemy in the room happens to have an infection. I understand the idea behind standing snipe, but outside of predetermined spawns or downed enemies, it only even works in this game because of how broken MH+Automate is. You cannot actually attack (or even see because 10 year old engine) enemies further than the range at which they can pelt you with highly damaging splash damage projectiles that every boss and almost every enemy has access to, meaning it is pretty rare for it to be a real option without both armor and healing. Mates, Resta and healing potentials--ways of healing in PSO2 in general--are really powerful compared to healing in other MMOs, but most other MMOs are not quite as fast, do not rely on reaction based dodging/blocking, and do not have regular mobs dealing more than half of your HP with their basic moveset.

[Shiyo]

You keep talking about melee classes and massive hunter/automate, but seriously, these skills serve a very important role in ranger, because we need to stand still to get Standing Snipe to remain activated.
More reasons to remove them. Even more classes relying on horribly designed things. Massive hunter alone is ok, though. Automate halfline is a big no.

Super armor and automatic healing are both necessary
No they aren't. If they are, then the devs have fucked up and need to start over from scratch.

[Altiea]

I don't know how anyone expects Ranger to stand in one spot and throw PAs at stuff while painting a big, fat target on their face that says "I'M STANDING STILL, PLEASE HIT ME" without some form of self sustenance.

[Zephiron]

I don't know how anyone expects Ranger to stand in one spot and throw PAs at stuff while painting a big, fat target on their face that says "I'M STANDING STILL, PLEASE HIT ME" without some form of self sustenance.

The issue is, the skill is designed with the theory that a ranger can stay away the whole time from damage and stand in safety. The skill is badly designed for this type of game.

[Superia]

No they aren't. If they are, then the devs have fucked up and need to start over from scratch.

Is this some kind of a joke?

[Raujinn]

I stand by a lot of my points from earlier in the thread. Automate is essentially a lazy fix for some of the issues that Melee has in PSO2's lategame; un-cancelable attacks with long animations, flinch-locking, juggling, getting hit while knocked down, the occasional double-hit on an attack that's only meant to hit once and possibly other things I'm forgetting. TBF the first issue is mostly a Hunter one as they don't really have the quick-fire PAs that Braver and Fighter have access to (at least not to nearly the same degree of effectiveness). Particularly Wired Lance though Sword and Partizan both have a few lengthy un-cancelable attacks as well.

Before Automate is removed, I'd feel they'd have to fix those issues at least for melee classes.

I also genuinely feel like mate-use should be cancelable or... something done so you're not helpless for so dang long that an attack can go from telegraph to completion like a second after you started healing...

e: For ranged.. I get the impression that the idea is that the mobs are meant to be distracted by other players in order for you to make use of standing snipe? Not sure... At the very least you'd still have Massive Hunter.

[Altiea]

I find it kinda funny how we're giving Automate Halfline shit but no one has a problem with Automate Deadline.

[Mizel]

I find it kinda funny how we're giving Automate Halfline shit but no one has a problem with Automate Deadline.

Because deadline is useless. Only procs when you get reduced to less than 25% HP, but many lv80 bosses in this game (especially raid bosses) can easily take out half of your health or more in one hit. Not even close to being worth using compared to the commonly used skills on Gu tree.

[Altiea]

You know, why don't we just merge the Automate skills, convert their threshold to 30% or 35% and reduce the healing from a Mate consumed by Automate by 50% or 75%?

[Xaelouse]

Deadline serves as a safety net you shouldn't rely on too much like Iron Will but still nice to have (GU's other skills dont want you getting hit often anyway)

If you want automate halfline on HU tree removed then the amount of reduction that Flash Guards and/or Massive Hunter give should be boosted considerably

[Altiea]

Deadline serves as a safety net you shouldn't rely on too much like Iron Will but still nice to have (GU's other skills dont want you getting hit often anyway)

As stated, no one actually cares about Deadline because 87 out of 89 SP is usually invested into damage boosts and Chain Trigger. There isn't enough SP to divert to get it. I can see it being useful but not totally broken if Halfline was replaced by Deadline on HU.

[nguuuquaaa]

Because Automate Deadline is completely useless unless you have a large HP pool, but still worse than Halfline.
Also, Wired Lance users can just spam Heavenly Fall for both effectiveness and i-frames.

I play Odin Sphere Leifthrasir recently, and this game also has the problem of lengthy uncancelable healing item usage. It's either 3x Vampiric Ring +2 or do not get hit at all, which is impossible for a large number of players.

[Zyrusticae]

Ranger dodge roll needs that stupid delay at the end to be removed. Let me spam it Dark Souls 3 style, thank you very much.

Speaking of Dark Souls, mates should let you slowly walk around while chugging. Being forced to stand stock still to take a drink is just really obnoxious in this type of game.

I wouldn't mind seeing Automate get nerfed to half heal effectiveness or whatever. Sounds fair to me, considering how little effort is required to use it (re: none at all). Resta and Megiverse getting a power nerf would be entirely reasonable considering they both heal entire HP bars in a second, though I would limit the nerf to their charged versions as the uncharged versions have small enough power and radii to be of niche usage (does Megiverse even have an uncharged version? I've never thought to try it).

[Superia]

(does Megiverse even have an uncharged version? I've never thought to try it).

Yeah. It mainly only sees use from Bouncers, either to instantly heal with it (you still overheal with one hit) or for TAJA/TCPBF if they are using Fighter.

[Shiyo]

Is this some kind of a joke?
No? Automate halfline is horrible design and nothing should require it, it shouldn't even exist.

[Tenlade]

No? Automate halfline is horrible design and nothing should require it, it shouldn't even exist.

Having an item to autoheal you when you dont have a dedicated healer is a good idea for tank classes in MMos, since they cant exactly stop to heal if they have all the aggro on them like they're supposed to.

so its just another instance of this weird desire to have skill trees and mmo roles in what is clearly an action fighting game with rpg numbers.

[Altiea]

No? Automate halfline is horrible design and nothing should require it, it shouldn't even exist.

If you got rid of Automate Halfline, how would you replace it?

[ArcaneTechs]

If you got rid of Automate Halfline, how would you replace it?
You dont, its the most casual skill (even GU's form of it) in the game. Simply get good.

All I'm reading are a bunch of Tanks (lol, again because this game has a place for them outside maybe Solo XQ) and Automate casual babies whining over ONE QUEST that has this heal nerf in the game, a fucking quest that isnt even permanently added in the game (ya it'll show up as a LUQ but no one runs those outside JP peak hours and still dead then, maybic). Matter of fact I hope they add this to CM3 just to spite you guys and hopefully more Quests in the feature, maybe this will teach you guys to stop relying on these skills and to "git gud". end rant

[Tenlade]

If you got rid of Automate Halfline, how would you replace it?
Having an item to autoheal you when you dont have a dedicated healer is a good idea for tank classes in MMos, since they cant exactly stop to heal if they have all the aggro on them like they're supposed to.

so its just another instance of this weird desire to have skill trees and mmo roles in what is clearly an action fighting game with rpg numbers.

edit: Actually, replace it with summoner's hp restorate, so they can tank hits and recover, but not abuse it for near immortality.
(I should really spend more time editing my posts before actually making them.)

[red1228]

edit: Actually, replace it with summoner's healing restorate, so they can tank hits and recover, but not abuse it for near immortality.
I was actually gonna agree with your previous post about Iron Will, but your Post-Edit was "intensifying".
I'd honestly be ok with Iron Will changed to something along the lines of "Survives a fatal hit & restores 100% Health with 3 seconds of invulnerability. 15-30 second cooldown". Because as it is right now, Iron Will *CAN & WILL FAIL* even if you see the blue graphic/animation trigger on your character, if said character is in a "free fall" state (like getting hit a 2nd time after being knocked back by a heavy attack).


You dont, its the most casual skill (even GU's form of it) in the game. Simply get good.

All I'm reading are a bunch of Tanks (lol, again because this game has a place for them outside maybe Solo XQ) and Automate casual babies whining over ONE QUEST that has this heal nerf in the game, a fucking quest that isnt even permanently added in the game (ya it'll show up as a LUQ but no one runs those outside JP peak hours and still dead then, maybic). Matter of fact I hope they add this to CM3 just to spite you guys and hopefully more Quests in the feature, maybe this will teach you guys to stop relying on these skills and to "git gud". end rant
By your logic we should just remove Ranger's Weak Bullet entirely, Gunner's Chain Trigger entirely & Fighter's Limit Break entirely. Because 'obviously' these classes should just git gud & stop relying on free double damage buttons.

[nguuuquaaa]

Having an item to autoheal you when you dont have a dedicated healer is a good idea for tank classes in MMos, since they cant exactly stop to heal if they have all the aggro on them like they're supposed to.

so its just another instance of this weird desire to have skill trees and mmo roles in what is clearly an action fighting game with rpg numbers.

This. HU is supposed to be tank in the first place, with all those HP and Guard Stance.
But then there's Fury Stance. Ugh.

I want a buff to FI's stances. Then people could chose between high damage (FI sub) or tanky (HU sub). Solve everything. .
There's no reason for a tanky class like HU to also have the highest unconditional damage boost.


By your logic we should just remove Ranger's Weak Bullet entirely, Gunner's Train Trigger entirely & Fighter's Limit Break entirely. Because 'obviously' these classes should just git gud & stop relying on free double damage buttons.

Remove Katana Combat Escape instead. Being in Limit Break state is already dangerous enough to worth the damage increase.

[Altiea]

You dont, its the most casual skill (even GU's form of it) in the game. Simply get good.

All I'm reading are a bunch of Tanks (lol, again because this game has a place for them outside maybe Solo XQ) and Automate casual babies whining over ONE QUEST that has this heal nerf in the game, a fucking quest that isnt even permanently added in the game (ya it'll show up as a LUQ but no one runs those outside JP peak hours and still dead then, maybic). Matter of fact I hope they add this to CM3 just to spite you guys and hopefully more Quests in the feature, maybe this will teach you guys to stop relying on these skills and to "git gud". end rant

Normally I ignore these kinds of posts, but giving everyone shit because they've voicing their thoughts on a crutch skill and putting yourself on a pedestal just makes you look bad.

[黒雪Yacchi]

You can argue for or against something without having to insult people.

[Tenlade]

I'd honestly be ok with Iron Will changed to something along the lines of "Survives a fatal hit & restores 100% Health with 3 seconds of invulnerability. 15-30 second cooldown". Because as it is right now, Iron Will *CAN & WILL FAIL* even if you see the blue graphic/animation trigger on your character, if said character is in a "free fall" state (like getting hit a 2nd time after being knocked back by a heavy attack).


make it 1 minute cooldown and it would likely be fine. I probably wouldn't give 100% healing on trigger though, likely just let them survive at one hp and the 3 seconds of invincibility, long enough to chug a monomate or give a tech user time to cast resta on you.

[Altiea]

make it 1 minute cooldown and it would propably be fine. I probably wouldn't give 100% healing on trigger though, likely just let it survive at one hp and the 3 seconds of invincibility, long enough to chug a monomate or give a tech user time to cast resta on you.

It already does the latter though. Never Give Up exists.

[Tenlade]

It already does the latter though. Never Give Up exists.

i always thought 15seconds was a bit overkill on the duration Never give up has, and the +300 attack screamed "please abuse this with limit break"

[red1228]

i always thought 15seconds was a bit overkill on the duration Never give up has, and the +300 attack screamed "please abuse this with limit break"
Normally you'd be right, but even at max SP; Its still 75% Dudu / Monica RNG and the aforementioned "will fail regardless if your character's body is airborne" issue.

[Altiea]

You know... Why can't Hunter have Massive Mate? It has no purpose on Summoner's skill tree.

[Shiyo]

If you got rid of Automate Halfline, how would you replace it?

Why should it be replaced?
Nothing about it needs to exist in the game. It encourages braindead playing habits.
It makes the game EASIER(much easier) without any user interaction in an ACTION COMBAT game. Everything about it is bad for the future of the game and classes that use it.
I've seen people start posting stuff like "oh when the boss does that attack just let auto-mate heal you back up to full". That post made me get really sad about the skill existing and research how many people actually do use it, and made me start posting about it.

It's horrible.


By your logic we should just remove Ranger's Weak Bullet entirely
This is correct, and should've been done during episode 1, episode 2 at the latest.

[Tenlade]

Normally you'd be right, but even at max SP; Its still 75% Dudu / Monica RNG and the aforementioned "will fail regardless if your character's body is airborne" issue.
You can also just wait until never gives up triggers, then activate limit break for the remaning 10-ish seconds of raw damage boost. it would at least work for new pd , where for some players, surviving attacks for 10 seconds would be a personal record.


You know... Why can't Hunter have Massive Mate? It has no purpose on Summoner's skill tree.
i think the idea was that hunters switching to summoner could use guard stance, flash guard, massive mate, hp restorate,automate, def up, and dear master to have su/hu become a super unkillable tank that will never die.

summoner has a weird skill tree that was seemingly designed to work with any possible build and subclass(so that as many people as possible would play the new class).

[Altiea]

Why should it be replaced?
Nothing about it needs to exist in the game. It encourages braindead playing habits.
It makes the game EASIER(much easier) without any user interaction in an ACTION COMBAT game. Everything about it is bad for the future of the game and classes that use it.

This is correct, and should've been done during episode 1, episode 2 at the latest.

I never said it had to be replaced by a similar skill. I don't think that Automate is conceptually bad, it's just that it's so poorly and cheaply implemented that it feels insanely broken. That's why I said it should be heavily nerfed, but not outright removed, since, all things considered, SEGA will never, ever take skills away from classes. I also think that Combat Escape is pretty braindead and just makes Katana insanely broken for zero effort, but I don't think it needs to be straight up removed.

As for WB, what would that be replaced with? In other words, exactly what role would Ranger fulfill besides "stand 15m away and deal damage"?

[黒雪Yacchi]

If you hate automate so much you'd definitely hate the way mates worked in the PSP games and I also presume in PSU as well, which were insta-use. And I would say if you were to get rid of automate, allow mate usage to be cancel-able and/or reduce use time for them so you aren't a sitting duck while trying to heal. Or something like Leaf Bracer in Kingdom Hearts which makes you immune to damage while healing.

[ArcaneTechs]

Normally I ignore these kinds of posts, but giving everyone shit because they've voicing their thoughts on a crutch skill and putting yourself on a pedestal just makes you look bad.
i wish i was putting myself on a pedestal but it looks like everyone is already on it whining and complaining about their precious build that is ruined in a quest that wont be here long. I mean your not any different acting like a stuck up mlg pro KB warrior ho ho

[Shiyo]

As for WB, what would that be replaced with? In other words, exactly what role would Ranger fulfill besides "stand 15m away and deal damage"?
None of the melee in this game fill any role, they'd just be a class that uses ranged guns.

[Masu]

I do use automate and this doesn't mean I'm face tanking everything. When I started playing I maxed that skill, now I got 9sp and just this makes a big difference. I keep using automate cause sorry but fighting Diabo in tight area and dying stupidely cause camera goes crazy, you see nothing so can't escape BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE WHERE YOU ARE. Nothing with git gud just something to fix/prevent a huge gameplay problem imho.
Back to lq, this quest made me realized that I'm not that much dependant of automates. Might be an illusion tho cause once you get to know spawn points... :-P

[red1228]

I don't think any the mentioned skills should be removed at all. Heavily tweaked, yes. But not removed outright. If we got rid of these "brain dead abilities", then the entire point of having nine playable classes would be null. We'd basically have only three boring archetypes: Guy that hits things, guy that shoots things & guy that makes things die from a distance (but differently from gun-guy).

Also, I'm not complaining about this Final Fantasy LQ "ruining" anything. I actually like that it has an Heal Nerf (although a tad extreme) & that Odin can fail the entire quest if your MPA is garbage. If anything, the bosses need their HP raised!

[Shiyo]

I don't understand how removing automate half line removes class identity or uniqueness at all.

[SteveCZ]

Hint: Automate Halfline is in Guard Stance branch.

[red1228]

I don't understand how removing automate half line removes class identity or uniqueness at all.
So when we're doing Ultimate or the few Bosses that don't instantly melt; What do you expect a Hunter main to do after War Cry / War Brave? Run away from the enemies he just aggro'd? So that the squishy Forces can safely charge up their techs (don't even try to bring up Tech Charge Parry Ring, cuz that maxes out at like 0.6 seconds) to attack or divert attention away from Rangers charging up their Satellite Cannon / End Attraction (Massive Hunter is great, but no ranger is gonna be alive after face tanking a bunch of Ultimate Enemies or the buffed Profound Darkness).

Granted, these situations are few & far between at the moment (due to Sega/c and their "infinite wisdom" in designing content), but I'll keep my autoheal so I can pull aggro AND continue contributing damage, thank you very much.

[Shadowstarkirby]

Automate doesn't need to be removed, just adjusted. I like the idea to make mates used 3/4 as effective and have a 5-10 second internal cooldown between heals so it isn't so cheesy that you can ignore boss mechanics outright. It wouldn't be extreme, I'd still use Automate. Autoheals and regen skills have been present in many games, it's not really an unforgivable sin. Some weapons genuinely have a tough time staying in the fray without Automate like Sword (don't get me wrong, Automate is just a bandaid to Sword's real issues). I personally don't use Automate on my Hu/Fi in Ultimates, so having a slow weapon with uncancelable hitstop overdose PAs, I lose health extremely quickly when focused and I have to do run arounds for extended times just to get a chance to heal, only to lose it again some seconds later.

[ArcaneTechs]

I do use automate and this doesn't mean I'm face tanking everything. When I started playing I maxed that skill, now I got 9sp and just this makes a big difference. I keep using automate cause sorry but fighting Diabo in tight area and dying stupidely cause camera goes crazy, you see nothing so can't escape BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE WHERE YOU ARE. Nothing with git gud just something to fix/prevent a huge gameplay problem imho.

bruh your struggling with Diabo AFTER his AI nerf? well you know what im gonna say

[Tenlade]

I do use automate and this doesn't mean I'm face tanking everything. When I started playing I maxed that skill, now I got 9sp and just this makes a big difference. I keep using automate cause sorry but fighting Diabo in tight area and dying stupidely cause camera goes crazy, you see nothing so can't escape BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE WHERE YOU ARE. Nothing with git gud just something to fix/prevent a huge gameplay problem imho.
Back to lq, this quest made me realized that I'm not that much dependant of automates. Might be an illusion tho cause once you get to know spawn points... :-P
Not a git gud, but if the camera is causing you trouble, try switching to third person view when diabo starts flying up or pins you up against walls. If youre a hunter main all guard can help avoid diabo swooping in from offscreen to smack you, otherwise stick to third person view while against a wall when possible to avoid anything sneaking up.

[Tunga]

Hint: Automate Halfline is in Guard Stance branch.

This matters how?

[Masu]

@Tenlade: Fi/Hu 90% of time, and I'm playing with pad for some reason.


bruh your struggling with Diabo AFTER his AI nerf? well you know what im gonna say
I do have fought pre-nerf Diabo, ONCE. So, it's hard to tell and lol yes I know, I'm considering myself average at best, one day maybe ;-)

[Superia]

No they aren't. If they are, then the devs have fucked up and need to start over from scratch.
Is this some kind of a joke?



No? Automate halfline is horrible design and nothing should require it, it shouldn't even exist.

You are not joking? You do not think that the devs already fucked up by making enemies do so much damage that uncharged Restas overhealing and stuff like Automate seem to be fine? This is not even where I would start counting the fuck ups they have made, but something about the way you put that seemed humorous, so I interpreted it that way. Also, did you somehow see the content of my post without actually reading it or something? If it was too long to read, here is a summary: PSO2 is fast. Enemies do a lot of damage. Standing Snipe is a bad fit except the right side of Hunter's tree exists. Without even getting into why Automate exists as it does in the first place, you do not fix this by removing it and doing nothing else.

[isCasted]

If Automate could be removed, Standing Snipe should go too. It doesn't even matter whether Automate is necessary for it or not, SS condition is broken and it does not encourage skilled play (as in, ability to stand still is mostly determined by environment and not player). It's just as random as Fighter's stances at this point.

[Sonichi]

All this butthurt about automate. I personally don't care if it's brain-dead, it if allows me to keep spamming attacks and kill thing faster without stopping, which will gain me extra runs of a quest faster for more loot, I'll gladly use it while it's available. Not gimping myself just to be a "sick MLG pro player" and prove a """""point""""" when I could just take the skill and not receive any punishment.
If my runs go better due to a skill/class that I can take with no downside, I will always take them. There's no reason not to if you care so much about run quality, not abusing everything in your power seems pointless. If you don't need it, great. If you want it, just take it. It's better than using some special build that doesn't do jack in an MPA and turns you into one of those people who everyone loves so much to complain about.

What's the point in even complaining in an english pso forum anyway, it's not like anyone is gonna see/care.

[Superia]

If Automate could be removed, Standing Snipe should go too. It doesn't even matter whether Automate is necessary for it or not, SS condition is broken and it does not encourage skilled play (as in, ability to stand still is mostly determined by environment and not player). It's just as random as Fighter's stances at this point.

Standing Snipe should be gone regardless of Automate, specifically because you cannot really choose when standing still will work out. Ideally, SS and WB multipliers both get offloaded into WHA, with WB now only marking an area as a weakpoint and nothing else.

[Ziel]

You shouldn't be getting hit.
Yes, the skill cap of melee will be massively higher than ranged(because ranged gets to ignore 95% of every bosses mechanics in this game), but if you make them do 3-4x the damage of a ranged, the reward:effort ratio is pretty much fine.

Melee should be the strongest and best single target/bossing classes, because they don't have a 5 hour iframe dodge and have to actually be in melee range and tackle boss mechanics, while ranged doesn't. Ragrants makes you be melee range, but is still pretty far and charge parry ring can block a lot of damage with 0 thought behind it, and you still have dodge.

Just make melee better, Really, that's it. Remove automate halfline, remove massive hunter, and make melee the best DPS in the game by over 2x the damage. They deserve it.

I love the total and absolute disregard for rangers and their "Must stay still UNINTERRUPTED charge attacks" mechanics in your nerf statements....

Even a little flinching screws more than half your damage bonuses, for a "fast paced game" standing snipe should be just snipe, and moving snipe should be buffed.

[Selphea]

I don't mind Standing Snipe but the bonus and the SP investment is too big. If it was 5 points for 15% like TAJA it'd be OK.

What I dislike more really is how they are so dependent on Weak Hit Advance when there's a growing trend of enemies with no or very difficult to reach weak points by default like Tokyo Heli/Tanks, Banoridian, Kuron Houses, PD.

Sure Rangers can WB, but they're not the only Ranged class. There's also Bow Br and Gu who are balanced around /Ra multipliers, and they would not be playing optimally in a WBer role. And if there's a mass Heli spawn it's not like you're going to WB all of them.

[Keilyn]

I guess all what people have proved is that making one change is enough to actually break everything else. It is also interesting in a good way that people have spoken about physical speed in fighting outside of just pure time attacks. Compared to the games I've played, the combat speed on the average in PSO-2 is actually Slow-Moderate to Moderate Speed. (Basically rating the speed of combat a 2.5 out of 5) where only in TD and PD do I feel one has to react faster...

When one solos, one has to react faster than when four players are together in a party where everything dies by just looking at it. The competition I see is who makes the kill to have their damage registered on whatever forbidden parser people claim to not be using. In the games that I play when one enters a party zone, the mob count is real and if the party does not react well, players start dying and like a chain reaction... eventually the party wipes. A mistake in PSO-2 gets fixed by simply throwing a Moon Atomizer out there....

[Masu]

@Sonichi: Depends how you look at things. When you reach a state where gearing isn't (really) a factor anymore (you talk about loot), the only thing which keep you playing the game is: Enjoying stuff with friends/team members, fashion whoring and improving your game:-?

[Sonichi]

There's nothing wrong with improving your game, however trying to force others into that isn't any good. That is what removing something like Automate or Massive Hunter would do, more people would suffer from having it removed and die/flinch more in your runs, than one would benefit from being a good player and saving SP from it (which you can do anyway, nobody tells you that you HAVE to take any of these crutch skills). Then said people asking for it to be "removed" would complain that people are dying too much, regardless of their gear or not.

I don't see why people care so much as to how the playerbase gets things done, if they get things done properly. Again as stated before, private groups for playing are always an option if public groups are "so much cancer" that you need to post walls about it on a forum, do something rather than sitting and complaining. If you see someone in your team/circle who runs random builds which are no benefit to them or others, throw them some advice, if they take it as a form of bullying/abuse, get over it and move on, play with people worth "your" time.

It should also be noted, if you really are that good of a player that modern content "coddles" players too much, you can run in groups of 4,6,8 instead of 12, test yourself more. Making your own difficulty is not great no, but it's something you can actually do about it. Unless you're submitting complaints regularly to SEGA or something, you don't influence their decisions in the slightest.

Also please remember this game does not cost you anything but your time, and if the game design is that terrible you are unhappy playing the ENTIRETY of the other content because of it, just leave. Walk away from the computer. Not everyone is going to have the same views as you, and you should not expect them to.

[Superia]

Compared to the games I've played, the combat speed on the average in PSO-2 is actually Slow-Moderate to Moderate Speed. (Basically rating the speed of combat a 2.5 out of 5) where only in TD and PD do I feel one has to react faster...

I am curious about this.

[spoiler-box]The only other multiplayer games that come to mind where you can be killed instantly by something offscreen (without having to purposely put yourself in that position) are shooters and some of the earlier MMOs. You deal, receive, and heal large percentages of damage rather than the smaller approach most other multiplayer games use, and almost all non-EQ bosses and most EQ bosses can be instantly vaporized with the correct strategy (but again, can oneshot or staggerlock most players back with standard attacks). Resurrection is not the job of a healer, but something that anyone with an item that you have 5 of can handle, and is about as fast as using a healing item, so no one stays dead long. The main defense mechanisms (besides the classic "tank everything with automate" strat) are manual, client-sided dodges (with require a lot more timing than required in most other games including single-player action titles) and blocking (with admittedly broken ezmode frames) which is kind of rare in MMOs, and is pretty much the one thing PSO2 has done right in my opinion. When you say combat speed, what do mean exactly?[/spoiler-box]

[Starryeyedbunny]

I'm gonna keep it general and try to avoid bringing up classes directly... I feel like there's a lot of competitiveness and feeling that "one has it way easier than the other" etc going on, and I would rather not personally add to that. I will say that my main is Fo/Te and my second most played class is Hu/Fi... so it is to say I've kind of been playing on opposites.

Generally speaking, if anything, Resta needs a nerf. It's too spammable. I don't think the charging up to heal is honestly that broken given Fo and Bo's life span being a tad on the short side, but the fact we can keep using it constantly is the issue really. Uncharged Resta is honestly too strong too. If it only did one tick that might not be a bad thing, but regardless... Resta just needs to be less "spammable". A short cooldown might help, or diminished effectiveness from using too often, etc. There's also an issue with JG ring. It's not as broken as some people say it is, but there's still an issue of how long of a window you have to use it... I really do feel like it shouldn't be "spammable" and with ragrants... yeah, you're bound to just happen to block something on accident. This is coming from a Fo/Te btw. Of course, there's a lot I would nerf and buff with that class combo .w.; But I'm just one person and this is about healing...

And yes, JG is something to consider when talking about healing XD

-mate items is where I'm kind of..iffy about. Right now I don't really feel like they need a nerf really. As some one pointed out...I can't recall sorry, that the player should be able to at least walk slowly while using them. This is an idea I'm actually very behind. It might not save you from a lot of attacks but it will help you from being "Wombo combo'd" too often. I'm not sure about being able to cancel the animation though, as I feel like you have to pick the right time to use it(which is an issue with Resta's OPNess...too easy to just use it).

I will say that... Melee really doesn't have it harder than other classes, at least when it comes to survival. Hell, all of them but Fighter's weapons seem to have it easier from my experience. JG are very lax and easy to abuse, as well as the fact they have more HP. Given the dev team was aware they were making games with both melee and ranged, they balanced a lot around it... Bosses constantly have attacks that are designed to hit from nearly any distance in an arena and almost seem to be there to punish ranged a lot more than melee. Close range attacks also tend to be stupidly slow. The only advantage range has is really that they don't have to close in (Which a lot of attacks like Gurren and Guilty Break try to overcome) and that enemies MIGHT have to get close to attack.

That being said uh... Maybe Fighter needs a buff to it's defenses in some way? Like don't have them guard like how Hu and Br can, but allow for a (wide) JG similar to tech guard where they can throw a counter with their weapons. IDK if some people would like the delayed animations for that or not though .w.; It may simplify things but it would also help with the next thing I would bring up...

Iron Will...I don't know why this is in the game, let alone why it's sub class enabled. I think this is the basis (combined with fury stances' "I exist" requirements and power for just...existing) for a lot of conflict between people with different mains. Fi/Hu and Ra/Hu suddenly do massive damage while having a 75% chance to survive, and...with Fi, they suddenly get rewarded for "dying" with a s-atk boost. Honestly, I don't know if I say this should be removed....but it should be main class only, maybe made as "one skill point" type that gives a 55% chance to survive with Hunter weapons equipped. I can imagine the only reason it was there make it easier to use the slower Hunter weapons that leave you more open. If they don't want to make it main only, nerf the effects on it for sub (similar to Tech-Arts JA PP Save). 30% seems like a fine gamble honestly. I do it on my Ra/Hu and it saves more than it probably should. My death record on Ra/Hu is stupidly low because of it just kicking in on the times I WOULD die.

And that's just 30%...

As for automate, my only suggestion on nerf is making it Monomate only. That's it. I don't see why people are super ho-hum over it personally, but I guess I just haven't listened to them enough. I can understand anyone being against it with di/trimates being abusable though, especially since it removes the lack of pause of use...

To summarize: Resta is too easy to just use at any time and keep using, mates themselves are fine. Iron Will procing at 75% chance is way too much.

Oh, to back up what I'm saying... Think about Perennial Apocalypse. Notice how, through out each phase of PD, each phase seems to do just enough damage to one shot a Force for each level of ARKS buff, assuming they haven't stacked HP? And notice how certain attacks like the claw grab or double fist pound seem to do just enough damage to insta-kill a lot of hardy classes? It seems they're honestly aware of how easy Resta is to abuse for Force, so they opt to insta kill them, and with people subbing Hu, they have to make sure that nearly every hit is gonna take away all HP so that it's all up to Iron Will rolling 1/4 to kill, otherwise it would have to do the roll AFTER doing an excessive amount of damage.

Rather than trying to rebalance the game to make content hard, they've made content balanced around what we have now...causing a lot of issues. I've seen far far less of any class that's not Hu sub in Perennial with the exception of Fo/Te...which given how aggressive movement is with the two bosses, is only due to the fact it could, on average, do the highest damage, assuming you're not dying every few seconds.

The new LQ having a healing reduction after updated Progeny only made me realize what was really going on there...

[Shiyo]

Balancing around badly designed skill traits and abilities is pants on head retarded.

[Shadowstarkirby]

Nice and balenced class diversity. :rolleyes:

http://i.imgur.com/cer1DRC.png?1[/SPOILER-BOX]

[SPOILER]Yes, I'm aware this MPA setup is very unlikely to come across, like at all, but I'm slowly starting to find more technique users than melee players in LQ now when I play it and find it kind of funny when 5/6th of the MPA is composed of technique players. Don't mind it neither from a grinding standpoint. Much like TDs, my runs go faster having more of them than other classes.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

That being said uh... Maybe Fighter needs a buff to it's defenses in some way? Like don't have them guard like how Hu and Br can, but allow for a (wide) JG similar to tech guard where they can throw a counter with their weapons. IDK if some people would like the delayed animations for that or not though .w.; It may simplify things but it would also help with the next thing I would bring up...

Fi has guard/iframes built into many of their attacks unlike other melee, and the new deadly circle 0 is the worst offender of that.



Iron Will...I don't know why this is in the game, let alone why it's sub class enabled. I think this is the basis (combined with fury stances' "I exist" requirements and power for just...existing) for a lot of conflict between people with different mains. Fi/Hu and Ra/Hu suddenly do massive damage while having a 75% chance to survive, and...with Fi, they suddenly get rewarded for "dying" with a s-atk boost. Honestly, I don't know if I say this should be removed....but it should be main class only, maybe made as "one skill point" type that gives a 55% chance to survive with Hunter weapons equipped. I can imagine the only reason it was there make it easier to use the slower Hunter weapons that leave you more open. If they don't want to make it main only, nerf the effects on it for sub (similar to Tech-Arts JA PP Save). 30% seems like a fine gamble honestly. I do it on my Ra/Hu and it saves more than it probably should. My death record on Ra/Hu is stupidly low because of it just kicking in on the times I WOULD die.

Aside from the large chance of preventing ko, and how many points it eats, making it a noob trap of sorts, Iron will is sort of okay. It really doesn't need to be a mainclass only skill; hunter doesnt hinge on having it to function, and it's not going to make hunter mains magically more popular if it was mainclass only.

Also, any smart player should never play with the assumption that iron will is going to save them. I wouldn't assume people stand there eating damage to deal more damage because of iron will. They would with automate.

[Shiyo]

Also, any smart player should never play with the assumption that iron will is going to save them. I wouldn't assume people stand there eating damage to deal more damage because of iron will. They would with automate.
This is my EXACT problem with automate. It creates bad habits and encourages bad playstyles.

[nguuuquaaa]

Does the game force you to go Automate? No.
Does not getting Automate have any benefits? Yep, dump the rest to S-Atk up.

Honestly I don't even know why you hate Automate that much. You can totally abandon it and play glass cannon style for moar damage if you are confident enough. The problem is, most of us scrubs cannot cope with, errr, "high-level gaming", so we choose the easy way to reduce burden to MPA (since we are scrubs, we don't have 20 hours gaming a day to practicing dodge/block everything). What, it's not like it's super broken that every build must be balanced around it like compound techs.

Is trying to carry my own weight that much of an issue?

[Selphea]

I thought nowadays they use R/Massive Hunter, precast Conc Megiverse (100% covered by TCP!) and go to town with Conc Ragrants or Gifoie instead :wacko:

[Starryeyedbunny]

Fi has guard/iframes built into many of their attacks unlike other melee, and the new deadly circle 0 is the worst offender of that.
Ah... I haven't played Fi much of any except with daggers so I'm out of the loop. In fact it's the only class I haven't really put serious effort into.




Aside from the large chance of preventing ko, and how many points it eats, making it a noob trap of sorts, Iron will is sort of okay. It really doesn't need to be a mainclass only skill; hunter doesnt hinge on having it to function, and it's not going to make hunter mains magically more popular if it was mainclass only.

Also, any smart player should never play with the assumption that iron will is going to save them. I wouldn't assume people stand there eating damage to deal more damage because of iron will. They would with automate.
10 points is hardly excessive, and 5 extra isn't gonna break the bank. It's not like massive hunter that eats up 16 points before you even put anything into it.

And really, I've seen people just ignore attempting to dodge at this point. Automate may contribute, but when you're not being punished and even rewarded, it causes some huge issues. And then you count in the fact that when you DO have people who don't rely on it, they suddenly are nigh-unkillable. Automate still has it's limits

Automate is... just whatever tbh. Bad habits can kill bad players but when you're giving decent or better players nigh-invulnerability on top of massive damage, yeah, you're dealing with a lot of balance problems. Trust me, I understand it has it's problems. 100% proc rate is too much and being able to use di/tri mates is obviously big.

But you're also dealing with the fact that people who actually try...when they do get struck with fatal damage, they're more than likely to survive and benefit...

It's gotten to the point when I feel like my other two characters are perfectly fine with SP I'm gonna change my Hu to have only IW level 1, and that's probably pushing it there. Given the how little I'm even put into near death with that character, I've never died at all recently despite playing on XH constantly, simply because the rare moment I WOULD, IW procs.

It's kind of killing the fun of the game.

[Selphea]

If people don't want to die they could affix HP Souls with Stamina and run with 2 HP crafted units. That's 8% strike resist and even a Fo would have 1.3k HP wthat setup and Guts Drink. Not expensive or difficult to run Ragne/Tech3/Stam3/Latan/Doom Break either.

[Losvaize]

This is my EXACT problem with automate. It creates bad habits and encourages bad playstyles.

I do not see how a skill that will allow you to afford a mistake while doing damage instead of having to peel off and stop doing damage for a bit to heal or rely on a party member to heal you is a crutch that causes people to play poorly and make poor decisions. The skill doesn't magically make people worse, people who are bad are going to be bad even with automate.

[Selphea]

Automate isn't really a crutch tbh but what I don't like about its design is that if they wanted to give players an effective HP pool of >10k, why not... just give everyone a HP pool of >10k with no healing items and then balance around that?

[Tenlade]

Automate isn't really a crutch tbh but what I don't like about its design is that if they wanted to give players an effective HP pool of >10k, why not... just give everyone a HP pool of >10k with no healing items and then balance around that?

Its physically impossible, if only because there is infinite healing in the form of resta. Which means that HP is effectively infinite. This means the only way to even threaten death at a player is to either kill them in one blow or reduce their healing so much that the damage can outpace the healing (which the LQ tries to do).

That said, the AIS missions pretty much do exactly what you suggest, giving everyone 8000, and a healing skill with a cooldown to prevent spamming it for inifinite health. It kinda works out,aside from the lack of mercy invincibility.

[Selphea]

Yes part of balancing around that would involve Resta, Megi and Moons/Reverser Field :p

[Tenlade]

Yes part of balancing around that would involve Resta, Megi and Moons/Reverser Field :p

problem is i don't know how you can balance it. pp is infinite and techs dont have cooldown, My only guess is if you tosses this healing nerf into every quest, but then made a resta type0/giresta that gave everyone a health regen, which could stack with nerfed resta for those "oh god everything is dying" moments.

[yoshiblue]

Probably diminishing returns, immunity build up, cost increase per casting. With Megiverse I can see reduction of stats if used too much. Moons and Reverse field is a nonissue and scape dolls would only be more welcomed if it gets them more money.

Make the meta revolve around a buffed heal share and weapons like Celestial Laser. Give it to summoners too who can make it apply to both them and their pets.:nerd:

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

10 points is hardly excessive, and 5 extra isn't gonna break the bank. It's not like massive hunter that eats up 16 points before you even put anything into it.


Massive hunter is 7-11 points. No one counts the obligatory 5 points of HP up because you need it for fury stance anyway.

Iron will is a bit excessive because after the first point, each point after is just an extra 4-6% chance to not die, when a player should be striving to not die in the first place, and there's still a chance iron will won't even work. Getting 10/10 iron will means a combination of 1 or 2 of these things; lower passive striking damage, no massive hunter, no war cry, or no weapon gears.

As for me personally, I don't like iron will because its usefulness scales inversely with the player's ability, and asks for up to 10 points or more for something that doesn't happen to me every day (and when it does happen, there's a chance it won't even work). So, I only have one point in it.

I don't pick up automate because aside from hating it out of principal, and preferring to actually have to consider when I attack, the situations automate best defends against (hitstunlocks, juggles) tend to not matter to Br/Hu very much (guren tessen super armor, massive hunter super armor, KC invincibility, quick mate)

[Selphea]

IW is a legit strategy in Limit Break with a Zanverser. 75% chance to continue DPSing in LB. If the Moon is quick, the downtime wouldn't be too different from having to dodge.

I would not have believed it till i saw a FiHu do exactly that, standing still during the last Double/PD flyby for the proc

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

IW is a legit strategy in Limit Break with a Zanverser. 75% chance to continue DPSing in LB. If the Moon is quick, the downtime wouldn't be too different from having to dodge.

I would not have believed it till i saw a FiHu do exactly that, standing still during the last Double/PD flyby gor the proc

I've seen it too, and had a teammate use that specific strategy, and I have mixed feelings on it.

[MightyHarken]

Combat escape is even more broken than automate. If automate gets removed, combat escape and healing reversal should get removed as well.

[Xaeris]

At some point, I feel like this thread stopped being about the healing nerf mechanic in this quest and more about game balance in general.

[Altiea]

At some point, I feel like this thread stopped being about the healing nerf mechanic in this quest and more about game balance in general.

I think it's because the gimmick has such an adverse effect on a broken mechanic that is suddenly unreliable as a method of staying alive that it made us re-evaluate the effect of Automate on the game in general. Then one thing lead into another.

[Keilyn]

I actually like this thread.
While its true that the thread is an opinion about the healing nerf, the healing nerf itself is a subcategory or issue of game balance itself. I find its direction has actually been logical. I usually teach my students to observe an argument from both, the SuperCategory, and the Subcategory of the issue itself.

The SuperCategory of the Healing Nerf is Game Balance
The SubCategory of the Healing Nerf is actually what healing is in itself...

Higher means understanding the issue was made as a question of game balance.
Lower means that we understand the issue because we understand what the function is and its importance to begin with.

Priority Levels
[spoiler-box]In Computer Science and Military Sciences, Priority level is by rank, The lower the number, the higher the priority. In Argument Theory, Arguments are classified from top to bottom. The higher an argument is, the greater the priority it has. Usually an Argument is Observed through the SuperCategory and SubCategory of the Original Issue.[/spoiler-box]

[Tunga]

Combat escape is even more broken than automate. If automate gets removed, combat escape and healing reversal should get removed as well.

While combat escape is broken it also has a limit on how much you can abuse it (cough cooldown cough). Automate has a limit but you can just go back to campship > refill > go back to quest in like 10 seconds. And "just reversal HP" dude? lol, come on now.

[Altiea]

While combat escape is broken it also has a limit on how much you can abuse it (cough cooldown cough). Automate has a limit but you can just go back to campship > refill > go back to quest in like 10 seconds. And "just reversal HP" dude? lol, come on now.

Combat Escape feels broken because unlike Automate, which at least can fail to proc if you go from above half health to dead in one solid hit, Combat Escape is literally a panic button for Katana. One hit kill heading your way? One key press, boom, you're "FUCKING INVINCIBLE!" for 20 seconds, and you additionally gain enough power to burst down whatever was trying to kill you a moment ago. Low on health? Throw Combat on, pop a Trimate while ignoring whatever's going on around you, then spend the next 18 seconds bursting down everything in your path.

[sparab]

Combat Escape is literally a panic button for Katana. One hit kill heading your way? One key press, boom, you're "FUCKING INVINCIBLE!" for 20 seconds

Can't recall how many times getting butt kicked right when I press katana combat after gear counter.
You need either run 10 miles away or massive hunter to activate it safely, not in the middle of a mayhem.

[Altiea]

Can't recall how many times getting butt kicked right when I press katana combat after gear counter.
You need either run 10 miles away or massive hunter to activate it safely, not in the middle of a mayhem.

Disclaimer: Not a Katana main. I have used Combat a few times, though.

[ArcaneTechs]

Can't recall how many times getting butt kicked right when I press katana combat after gear counter.
You need either run 10 miles away or massive hunter to activate it safely, not in the middle of a mayhem.
Well it's a matter of timing of course and ya, never activate it in the middle of mayhem, particularly why RA's have Massive Bullet or w/e its called.


Disclaimer: Not a Katana main. I have used Combat a few times, though.
I think your over exaggerating how good the skill can be (more or less casuals or people not good with BR will do those things you said) but more experienced BR users dont use KC as a "panic" skill in situations, you know how to counter and step dodge so your going to use KC when you want some uninterrupted dps to go on.

Combat escape is even more broken than automate. If automate gets removed, combat escape and healing reversal should get removed as well.
Wow this is incredibly laughable, one skill becomes useless and in the event it gets "removed" other classes have to suffer as well, 11/10 balancing, would extend maintenance again bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

[MightyHarken]

Well it's a matter of timing of course and ya, never activate it in the middle of mayhem, particularly why RA's have Massive Bullet or w/e its called.


I think your over exaggerating how good the skill can be (more or less casuals or people not good with BR will do those things you said) but more experienced BR users dont use KC as a "panic" skill in situations, you know how to counter and step dodge so your going to use KC when you want some uninterrupted dps to go on.

Wow this is incredibly laughable, one skill becomes useless and in the event it gets "removed" other classes have to suffer as well, 11/10 balancing, would extend maintenance again bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Ah, you're a BR main, I know now why you have the balls to tell people to "git gud" you're playing the easiest "don't hurt me plz" class. GG fella

[SteveCZ]

What he's saying about not using KC only for panic button is correct tho.

[Caetho]

If they don't nerf Zanverse, I can't make myself give a shit. #WeddleParkSuprememcy

[MightyHarken]

While combat escape is broken it also has a limit on how much you can abuse it (cough cooldown cough). Automate has a limit but you can just go back to campship > refill > go back to quest in like 10 seconds. And "just reversal HP" dude? lol, come on now.

Ah, I'll consider that next time I'm fighting Profound darkness. Telepipe > buy more mates > come back down, right?

[Tunga]

Ah, I'll consider that next time I'm fighting Profound darkness. Telepipe > buy more mates > come back down, right?

If you need 30 mates during an EQ then you must be really bad.

[Sonichi]

I think he's referring to the fact you cannot telepipe in most EQs that use a starting portal. So no, you cannot just buy more mates when automate runs out.

[sparab]

nerf Zanverse

I thought BoHu moment gale is the zanverse nerf.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The moments I use KC as an 'oh shit' button is actually quite rare. Often times, I don't even use it until I trigger katana gear, and want to burn something down really hard.

I'm basically one of the people that use it just for more damage and temporarily ignoring attacks and mechanics to do... more damage. Unlike automate that would let me do that without real hard limits, CE lasts for 20 seconds every minute and a half at best.


I think he's referring to the fact you cannot telepipe in most EQs that use a starting portal. So no, you cannot just buy more mates when automate runs out.

He could go back to the campship after dying to buy more, or you can ask the more skillfull players in the mpa to drop some for you.

The options are there.

[MightyHarken]

The moments I use KC as an 'oh shit' button is actually quite rare. Often times, I don't even use it until I trigger katana gear, and want to burn something down really hard.

I'm basically one of the people that use it just for more damage and temporarily ignoring attacks and mechanics to do... more damage. Unlike automate that would let me do that without real hard limits, CE lasts for 20 seconds every minute and a half at best.



He could go back to the campship after dying to buy more, or you can ask the more skillfull players in the mpa to drop some for you.

The options are there.

So the same reason people use massive hunter + automate? K. It's almost impossible to run out of mates. but like the guy before you said, my point is, you can't pipe to restock, unless you're willing to lose 1 rank to get more healing items. Anyway this whole thread is stupid because nothing we say here matters, it only matters what jp peeps say.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

So the same reason people use massive hunter + automate? K.

KC has a cooldown. Automate doesn't. KC is tied to one weapon, one class. Massive hunter + automate appeals to everyone with reason to sub hunter for damage perks anyway. Try harder.

[HentaiLolicon]

Might as well kill off RA along with automate please then make this game Fo and Br only

[Tunga]

I think he's referring to the fact you cannot telepipe in most EQs that use a starting portal. So no, you cannot just buy more mates when automate runs out.

EQ would be over by they time you need to restock mates.

[MightyHarken]

These people play only the easiest classes in the game and they think they're some top shit for doing so lmao. BR: "Oh yeah take that massive hunter and automate away, it's a brain dead mechanic unlike my infinite healing with just reversal or my KC to make me invincible"
FO: "Yeah fuck that noob skill, you just need to git gud dodging like me, with my endless invincibility dodge frame or my infinite resta healing "

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

These people play only the easiest classes in the game and they think they're some top shit for doing so lmao.

No, I just think your posting is getting worse as time goes on. It's clear you have nothing to say, so why don't you stop already?

Edit: People stopped complaining about massive hunter specifically for pages. And just reversal? Really? :lol:

[Tunga]

I propose sega nerfs just reversal. The skill is extremely broken and braindead.

[Keilyn]

FACT: There are no cooldown times for Photon Arts or Techniques
FACT: The game gives no avenue that does not truly prioritize any other element be it direct or indirect outside of DPS.

So the way to win is:
[spoiler-box]1) Increase your base number as high as possible (S-ATK, R-ATK, T-ATK)
2) Increase your multiplier as high as possible

These first two Cover Raw Damage itself.. and yes... Welcome to the Wonderful World of Multiplication ^_^.

3) Gain as much PP as possible...

This covers simply spamming your strongest PA or PA combination as many times as possible. In short... Bursting (or Spamming Ability)

DEFENSE = Either completely dodge an attack, or work with invincibility frames....

Result:

People flock to the DPS solutions of Braver (20 seconds invulnerability) and Force (Combined Techs, etc)...
[/spoiler-box]

Skill:
[spoiler-box]As far as skill goes, this is not much in the way of skill. If my niece who is still in her single digits (as far as age goes) can wipe out this game with Force or Braver, it means that the mentality needed to do well in that class is not so hard to figure out. Just a matter of getting the gear and practicing.

I've always believed that grown men argue that children's games require skill to beat because they wish to cover their inadequacy at being able to play games that actually require real skill, so these adults have to sit at the little kid's table, beating their single-digit to pre-teen counterparts at cards or something just so they can feel good about themselves.... I take the mature route of letting children play their games, while I play mine.[/spoiler-box]

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

FACT: There are no cooldown times for Photon Arts or Techniques
FACT: The game gives no avenue that does not truly prioritize any other element be it direct or indirect outside of DPS.

So the way to win is:
[spoiler-box]1) Increase your base number as high as possible (S-ATK, R-ATK, T-ATK)
2) Increase your multiplier as high as possible

These first two Cover Raw Damage itself.. and yes... Welcome to the Wonderful World of Multiplication ^_^.

3) Gain as much PP as possible...

This covers simply spamming your strongest PA or PA combination as many times as possible. In short... Bursting (or Spamming Ability)

DEFENSE = Either completely dodge an attack, or work with invincibility frames....

Result:

People flock to the DPS solutions of Braver (20 seconds invulnerability) and Force (Combined Techs, etc)...
[/spoiler-box]

Skill:
[spoiler-box]As far as skill goes, this is not much in the way of skill. If my niece who is still in her single digits (as far as age goes) can wipe out this game with Force or Braver, it means that the mentality needed to do well in that class is not so hard to figure out. Just a matter of getting the gear and practicing.

I've always believed that grown men argue that children's games require skill to beat because they wish to cover their inadequacy at being able to play games that actually require real skill, so these adults have to sit at the little kid's table, beating their single-digit to pre-teen counterparts at cards or something just so they can feel good about themselves.... I take the mature route of letting children play their games, while I play mine.[/spoiler-box]

When this turn into a 'video games are hard' thread? I remember discussing stuff that SEGA poorly designed such as the healing nerf, and automate, and not so much 'my class is tougher to play than yours!'.

[yoshiblue]

Thinking back on what LonelyGaruga brought up several moons ago, if Hunter is about the body and Braver is about the weapon, I personally feel Just Reversal should be more of a hunter skill than a braver skill. Because in that context, it makes no sense in how you're getting hp back as a "weapon focused/folded 1000 times" class. It could be a Fighter skill too even.

But this is just me being silly.

[EspeonageTieler]

Thinking back on what LonelyGaruga brought up several moons ago, if Hunter is about the body and Braver is about the weapon, I personally feel Just Reversal should be more of a hunter skill than a braver skill. Because in that context, it makes no sense in how you're getting hp back as a "weapon focused/folded 1000 times" class. It could be a Fighter skill too even.

But this is just me being silly.

hunters are supposed to be the tanky class I dont know why people would want to remove that. If I'm not mistaken here they arent as high in dps as some of the other classes.Seems like a dumb thing to take away their identity.

[millefeuille]

I like Ra/Br and Br/Ra. Where do I fit in? ^^;


-stuff-

Maybe for your run-of-the-mill MMO, sure. The answer is a bit more nuanced in PSO2.

[Shiyo]

Instant cast full heal restas, katana combat and automate halfline all are bad for the game(not all equally as bad) and should be removed/nerfed a lot.

Automate should be nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist and can't be taken, because it cannot be balanced.

Katana combat just needs to lose the 20 seconds of invincible.

Resta uncharged should heal for 100 hp MAX. It should be completely unviable to use it uncharged.

[EspeonageTieler]

Instant cast full heal restas, katana combat and automate halfline all are bad for the game(not all equally as bad) and should be removed/nerfed a lot.

Automate should be nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist and can't be taken, because it cannot be balanced.

Katana combat just needs to lose the 20 seconds of invincible.

Resta uncharged should heal for 100 hp MAX. It should be completely unviable to use it uncharged.

what would you replace automate with? damage reduction? or just turn hunter into pure dps?

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

what would you replace automate with? damage reduction? or just turn hunter into pure dps?

Could just give it a cooldown, allowing the player to shrug off damage every once in a while instead of all the time.

Pretty sure KC invincibility exists purely because of just one blindside completely ruining it in the last few seconds, and the zip-to-target feature makes it more likely to happen. Could replace the invincibility with super armor and potent damage reduction (like 50%) for the duration and it would be fine.

That resta suggestion probably wouldn't accomplish much. There's always uncharged megiverse, and tech charge parry ring makes casting fairly safe depending on your timing.

[gabor100]

Do you guys know which skill is broken/bad? Summoners HP Restorate. Oh yeah and Moon Atomizer is broken too, Halfdoll's/Scapedoll's are more than enough.

[Daku]

what would you replace automate with? damage reduction? or just turn hunter into pure dps?

Pretty sure a Hu sub is taken for DPS right now anyway actually.

Fury stance beats out Br Stances, Bo Stances and even Fi stances in general alone... only Ra's passives can really beat it on the shooting side.

Basically Hu sub atm is literally getting your damage and survival at once and it really shwos in how some of the better class picks of FiHu/BrHu/RaHu/BoHu have proven to be consistatnly used over the weaker and more risky Fi sub. A point mentioned earlier in the thread mentions how Iron Will/Automate can take points away from S-Atk ups. However I don't think this is the end of the world for a Hu sub's damage output if they do so.

-Iron Will while relying on it is foolish, if it it procs 'never give up' can proc a substancially good enough s-atk boost for a good duration
-Multipliers in general beat out raw stat boost, so long as you don't ditch your Fury Stance for Guard Stance or something else dumb, your damage will be great anyway. This is a even stronger point for Ra/Hu in which you don't even need the s-atk.

I could go on longer about how lousy hunter has been 'balanced' to pretty much be the best sub for Ranger and Melee as a whole.(It only really excludes tech damage) But that's another topic entirely and Sega won't address it at this rate potentially anyway.

[EspeonageTieler]

Pretty sure a Hu sub is taken for DPS right now anyway actually.

Fury stance beats out Br Stances, Bo Stances and even Fi stances in general alone... only Ra's passives can really beat it on the shooting side.

Basically Hu sub atm is literally getting your damage and survival at once and it really shwos in how some of the better class picks of FiHu/BrHu/RaHu/BoHu have proven to be consistatnly used over the weaker and more risky Fi sub. A point mentioned earlier in the thread mentions how Iron Will/Automate can take points away from S-Atk ups. However I don't think this is the end of the world for a Hu sub's damage output if they do so.

-Iron Will while relying on it is foolish, if it it procs 'never give up' can proc a substancially good enough s-atk boost for a good duration
-Multipliers in general beat out raw stat boost, so long as you don't ditch your Fury Stance for Guard Stance or something else dumb, your damage will be great anyway. This is a even stronger point for Ra/Hu in which you don't even need the s-atk.

I could go on longer about how lousy hunter has been 'balanced' to pretty much be the best sub for Ranger and Melee as a whole.(It only really excludes tech damage) But that's another topic entirely and Sega won't address it at this rate potentially anyway.

I'm talking about hunter main it shouldn't have to give something up because its the best sub if anything make it less effective when not maining

[Sonichi]

Instant cast full heal restas, katana combat and automate halfline all are bad for the game(not all equally as bad) and should be removed/nerfed a lot.

Automate should be nerfed so hard that it might as well not exist and can't be taken, because it cannot be balanced.

Katana combat just needs to lose the 20 seconds of invincible.

Resta uncharged should heal for 100 hp MAX. It should be completely unviable to use it uncharged.

All your posts just sound like "ubububu I don't like this feature that I am not forced to take, please remove it so I can feel better about my own decisions". Last I checked this game was not balanced at all, it's just a dps rush with some dressup. Stop thinking into it too much, your posts are getting pretty stale at this point.

I bet you play summoner and think it's a wonderfully 'different' and a well designed class
Also iirc from seeing you around way back, you can't play anything that isn't Bouncer for shit lol

[EvilMag]

everything is broken. lets just go punch things with our bare knuckles

[nguuuquaaa]

Pls nerf Mirage Escape, it's 99% i-frame with one button press and no cooldown.
Pls nerf Fury Stance, it's a free 1.76x/1.63x multiplier without any stupidly conditions.
Pls nerf Tactics Trap, they can regenerated 80% PP within 2s with a 20s cooldown.
Pls nerf Chain Trigger, wtf with this massive damage boost.
Pls nerf Combat Escape, they can survive everything even Persona's 999999 Megidolaon with this bullshiet.
Pls nerf Photon Blave Fever, wtf with this massive DPS with high-on-weed-level range on a melee class.
Pls nerf....
Nerf................
Pls..........................

[EvilMag]

Pls Nerf Mags. its a free 200 attack

[Daku]

I'm talking about hunter main it shouldn't have to give something up because its the best sub if anything make it less effective when not maining

I'm on board with adding some 'main class' gate somewhere I admit, I'd personally lock off most of fury stance as Main Class to reduce the DPS a Hu sub could output lower than say... Fi's probably? That way someone can sub Hunter for survival passives and a small bit of damage meanwhile anyone that 'got gud' can switch out to a Fi or other sub with more DPS and drop the survival passives no longer necessary.

On Topic though I do wish the healing/damage recieved was more on par with something like.. DMC? Like all the classes could take more or less around 7-15 hits before dying exchange for scarce healing, either by reducing -mates allowed in backpack (or their effectiveness) and something like a cool down on Resta which Techer would have a passive to reduce potentially. Granted I'm biased towards how actions games playout because of DMC. I prefer the idea of the HP bar being how many mistakes I can make instead of being something to 'health gate'.

[Altiea]

You know, we've established that Automate and the default Resta heal value are really, really overpowered and need to be nerfed. But why should they be nerfed? Because they're just overpowered?

[Shiyo]

They make the game easier with VERY low and one doesn't even require thought/user interaction and encourages bad playing habits.

[Shiyo]

Pls nerf Mirage Escape, it's 99% i-frame with one button press and no cooldown.
Pls nerf Fury Stance, it's a free 1.76x/1.63x multiplier without any stupidly conditions.
Pls nerf Tactics Trap, they can regenerated 80% PP within 2s with a 20s cooldown.
Pls nerf Chain Trigger, wtf with this massive damage boost.
Pls nerf Combat Escape, they can survive everything even Persona's 999999 Megidolaon with this bullshiet.
Pls nerf Photon Blave Fever, wtf with this massive DPS with high-on-weed-level range on a melee class.
Pls nerf....
Nerf................
Pls..........................
None of those let you completely ignore boss mechanics for extended periods of time without any user input.

There's a pretty big difference between "These increase my damage a lot" and "I can press massive hunter then do my entire dps rotation and ignore every boss mechanic/attack for 45 seconds"

[Altiea]

They make the game easier with VERY low and one doesn't even require thought/user interaction and encourages bad playing habits.

Does it encourage the player to facetank everything, which causes them to die more often when they no longer have that crutch when not maining/subbing Hunter? If that isn't it, then I don't see the connection.

[Shiyo]

Does it encourage the player to facetank everything, which causes them to die more often when they no longer have that crutch when not maining/subbing Hunter? If that isn't it, then I don't see the connection.

Yes?
People pop massive hunter, do their DPS rotation and rely on massive hunter(or super armor PA's) + automate to keep them alive while they kill the boss.

Hell, I've seen a ranger suggest "you don't have to dodge that, it only does 60% of your life just let automate heal through it" as a legit strategy for fighting things on this very forum.

People are literally basing their strategies around automate and getting in bad playing habits.

[黒雪Yacchi]

How is it bad, as you put it, if it gets the job done?

[Altiea]

The thing is, if you already have Automate, chances are you'll almost always have Hunter mained or subbed. So I don't see why other players' crutches are a problem besides being "Easy Mode". They don't die, and really, you only expect decent damage and not dying out of everyone else who's playing the game.

[Droid803]

It's not. It's "bad" in the same way throws that go through blocks are "cheap" in fighting games (because it goes against some set self-imposed rules or conception about how the game ought to be, but is not). It's part of the game and it can't possibly be "bad play" to take full advantage of it to become more efficient. It doesn't make anyone using it to become "bad", nor does it encourage "bad playing habits", because it works.

You can say it's poor game design because it is non-interactive (which it is, and I agree with that! totally!), but that is on Sega, not on anyone using it. (in fact, i'd posit it'd be bad play not to take full advantage of it when possible)

Honestly in the case of that Ranger example, the situation fed into by the way the whole class is designed. Ranger skill tree requires one to stand completely still for maximum multiplier. Their strongest PAs have long charge-up times on top of that which also hold the player completely still. Many attacks target the entire arena and no amount of positioning will give sufficient safe window to get these multipliers and PAs off. Thus, maximizing damage contribution to be on par with other classes requires bypassing some of these attacks.

It's poor game design design, but that's because sega messed up and built ranger as a class assuming it could hang back and out of trouble when many boss EQs shove you onto an arena where you cannot effectively do that.

There's no point trying to avoid it or pretend it doesn't exist. Use it and abuse it while it exists - make it more obvious how it is broken so sega sees it and makes appropriate changes.

[milranduil]

Yes?
People pop massive hunter, do their DPS rotation and rely on massive hunter(or super armor PA's) + automate to keep them alive while they kill the boss.

Hell, I've seen a ranger suggest "you don't have to dodge that, it only does 60% of your life just let automate heal through it" as a legit strategy for fighting things on this very forum.

People are literally basing their strategies around automate and getting in bad playing habits.

yes because that's a legitimate answer. activating massive hunter with automate and letting a siorg swing at you is well worth it when you get to satellite cannon once for half of its hp.

[NightfallG]

Yes?
People pop massive hunter, do their DPS rotation and rely on massive hunter(or super armor PA's) + automate to keep them alive while they kill the boss.

Hell, I've seen a ranger suggest "you don't have to dodge that, it only does 60% of your life just let automate heal through it" as a legit strategy for fighting things on this very forum.

People are literally basing their strategies around automate and getting in bad playing habits.

You are expecting way, way too much from both Sega and Second Life in Space.

[HentaiLolicon]

Yes?
People pop massive hunter, do their DPS rotation and rely on massive hunter(or super armor PA's) + automate to keep them alive while they kill the boss.

Hell, I've seen a ranger suggest "you don't have to dodge that, it only does 60% of your life just let automate heal through it" as a legit strategy for fighting things on this very forum.

People are literally basing their strategies around automate and getting in bad playing habits.

That's the most plausible way to do thing in this broken game where bosses run rampage, spamming AOE everywhere and there's no fucking tank to keep them at bay, not to mention support Te is like rare pokemon and FOs mostly cast resta for themselves

[NightfallG]

Support Te is a unicorn because DPS is literally the only thing that matters in the game. Everyone seems to want FF14 not understanding that PSO2 wants to be Devil May Cry with Brave Frontier level difficulty.


E: In space.

[Shiyo]

yes because that's a legitimate answer. activating massive hunter with automate and letting a siorg swing at you is well worth it when you get to satellite cannon once for half of its hp.

What exactly was the point of this post?
Yes, if you think about it, there will be situations where you you don't base your entire strategy around automate and massive hunter and it's not the best(but still good).

However, there are many, many , MANY more situations where you can literally base your entire strategy around it.

Example: Let's assume you're in just got to XH gear and not really well geared or affixed yet. You're doing an 80 banther. You can stunlock and kill him by breaking parts, he generally gets an attack or two off and sometimes a leap and a howl before being stunlocked and dying. Normally, you have to just guard or dodge these attacks, however, since you have massive hunter + automate, you can completely ignore that this boss is attacking you and has any mechanics at all and dps him until he dies while automate keeps you alive throughout the entire and massive hunter makes you immune to flinch/knockback.

This creates a bad playing habit.

[milranduil]

What exactly was the point of this post?
Yes, if you think about it, there will be situations where you you don't base your entire strategy around automate and massive hunter and it's not the best(but still good).

However, there are many, many , MANY more situations where you can literally base your entire strategy around it.

Example: Let's assume you're in just got to XH gear and not really well geared or affixed yet. You're doing an 80 banther. You can stunlock and kill him by breaking parts, he generally gets an attack or two off and sometimes a leap and a howl before being stunlocked and dying. Normally, you have to just guard or dodge these attacks, however, since you have massive hunter + automate, you can completely ignore that this boss is attacking you and has any mechanics at all and dps him until he dies while automate keeps you alive throughout the entire and massive hunter makes you immune to flinch/knockback.

This creates a bad playing habit.

By who's definition is it bad...? Depending on what weapon we're talking about, it's actually counterproductive to waste time blocking, prime example being sword. Unless a weak point is literally in your face for ignition parry, you're better off spamming over end/rising edge/nova strike and not giving a shit. Blocking actually reduces dps. So, what's bad about that?

[Shiyo]

Hey...
You just backed up my argument by saying that. Thanks :D

You're saying it's a DPS loss to dodge or guard, so you instead take it to the face and just rely on automate to keep you alive and super armor/massive hunter to become immune to flinch/knockback.
BAD PLAYING HABITS!!

[milranduil]

Hey...
You just backed up my argument by saying that. Thanks :D

You're saying it's a DPS loss to dodge or guard, so you instead take it to the face and just rely on automate to keep you alive and super armor/massive hunter to become immune to flinch/knockback.
BAD PLAYING HABITS!!

Except you didn't defend why it's bad to begin with... different classes have different playstyles that are optimal. For example, it's good for a braver to block most of the time, but not a RaHu or HuFi. Even then, brhu bow play on bosses requires automate/massive in an XH setting. I'll wait for you to define why it's objectively "bad" though.

[Shiyo]

Even then, brhu bow play on bosses requires automate/massive in an XH setting.
That's literally why it's bad for the game. When class combinations are being BALANCED around something so braindeads existence(or required to play x class combination), there's a problem with it(and the game).

Again, you keep helping my argument. Thank you so much!

edit: Skills that are completely unviable and unusable without automate + massive hunter should be changed to usable on their own and automate halfline removed or nerfed to a 30+ seconds ICD.

[toragyo]

Hey...
You just backed up my argument by saying that. Thanks :D

You're saying it's a DPS loss to dodge or guard, so you instead take it to the face and just rely on automate to keep you alive and super armor/massive hunter to become immune to flinch/knockback.
BAD PLAYING HABITS!!

Breaking news: Playing the most optimal way is a bad habit!

You don't need Automate+MH to facetank everything by the way. Replacing an affix with All Resist3 on Austere units would make 99% of the game hit you for 1 damage. Better remove affixes because it's promoting bad habits!

[Shiyo]

Breaking news: Playing the most optimal way is a bad habit!

You don't need Automate+MH to facetank everything by the way. Replacing an affix with All Resist3 on Austere units would make 99% of the game hit you for 1 damage. Better remove affixes because it's promoting bad habits!
That's not a very compelling argument. It's basic RPG that if you severely outgear and outlevel something it won't pose a threat to you.

Playing the most optimal way for most classes is not "face tanking attacks while you mash your dps rotation". I don't understand the comparison.

[Xaeris]

You two are talking past each other, imo. Relying on Massive Hunter and Automate is an optimal strategy, that's true. Reliance on Massive Hunter and Automate wouldn't be so richly rewarded in a balanced game. These aren't competing arguments.

Personally, I agree that Automate and Massive Hunter existing in the same tree as multiple offensive bonuses is silly, but there's really no getting the genie back into the bottle at this point. Just embrace it.

[toragyo]

That's not a very compelling argument. It's basic RPG that if you severely outgear and outlevel something it won't pose a threat to you.

Playing the most optimal way for most classes is not "face tanking attacks while you mash your dps rotation". I don't understand the comparison.

Whoops! How could I forget that outgearing things is not allowed. I'll just take Guard Stance+Flash Guard instead and take 1 damage while wearing nothing.

And yes, facetanking everything is the most optimal way to play for Fi, Hu, Ra, Su (Maron) and Bo. If 5/9 classes isn't 'most' then I don't know what to say.

[Shiyo]

Forgot to mention:
It's bad for not only the health of the game, but the future of the game when people are face tanking attacks and spamming their DPS rotation through massive hunter/automate/super armor in an action RPG.

I mean, we might eventually get a game where everyone face tanks everything and heals through it with passive no under interaction healing/invuls or something if we continue down this path.

Please understand this. That's all I ask.

[nguuuquaaa]

Hey look, there's a level 1 mob that try to attack lv75 me, let's dodge them!

Well why you ask? BECAUSE FACE TANKING IS FOR SCRUBS!

[Shiyo]

Hey look, there's a level 1 mob that try to attack lv75 me, let's dodge them!

Well why you ask? BECAUSE FACE TANKING IS FOR SCRUBS!
What was the point of this post?

There was once a time where the devs started to balance bosses around weak bullet, where many players were fine with weak bullet and thought it was ok. Now there's weak bullet "dampening" and the game is overall in a much better state not being balanced around weak bullet.

Hopefully the devs don't make the same mistake, even though they realized it was a mistake and fixed it, there's still bosses in the game(a lot) balanced around weak bullet and having any amount of bosses balanced around automate/massive hunter would be awful.

[nguuuquaaa]

The point is, face tanking is a legitimate strategy. If things cannot kill you, and there's enough stuff to keep you alive, it's always better to tank everything and just spam DPS. You know when I was playing Dragon Nest, I dodge when soloing only, but just spam skills when there are party with support. Because that's the point.

[Shiyo]

The point is, face tanking is a legitimate strategy. If things cannot kill you, and there's enough stuff to keep you alive, it's always better to tank everything and just spam DPS. You know when I was playing Dragon Nest, I dodge when soloing only, but just spam skills when there are party with support. Because that's the point.

That's not what an action RPG is about.

There's literally mechanics based purely around timing guards/dodges in this game. The entire games foundation is based upon actively avoiding damage at precise moments.

I don't understand why so many people don't understand this, but I give up.

[toragyo]

That's not what an action RPG is about.

There's literally mechanics based purely around timing guards/dodges in this game. The entire games foundation is based upon actively avoiding damage at precise moments.

I don't understand why so many people don't understand this, but I give up.

Because you have the option to not use them. Why can't you understand this either?

It's not optimal but if you want to be the most optimal, chances are that you're going to have to do something that you don't like. You have your action RPG right here if you choose not to use them.

[nguuuquaaa]

Then no thanks, I don't want to play YOUR version of action RPG.

[Xaeris]

I don't really want to pick a dog in this fight, but Shiyo's version of an action RPG isn't anything all that unthinkable. It's actually founded on a simple principle that many games are founded on: you get greater reward for managing greater risk/complexity. Assassination rogues do more DPS than Arcane mages (I don't know if that's still true, but it probably is). Sniper rifles are harder to use than shotguns, but can dispatch a target in one shot. The karts with the highest top speed are usually the ones with shit handling. Etc, etc. As I said, I've made my peace with the fact that PSO2 isn't founded on this principle and as such will always be a very easy game, but I don't think the complaints of someone who hasn't made this peace warrant hyperbole and revulsion like they have.