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View Full Version : Planned Adjustments -- EQs, Special Blocks, and Solo XQ



Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 02:19 AM
From Bumped (TL;DR Version):

-- Certain Schedule-Only EQs added to random pool

-- "Block Adjustments" to add blocks that only certain players can enter (current tidbit states that it might require having cleared Stage 1~5 of Solo XQ)

-- Solo XQ 2: Electric Boogaloo harder than Heaven and Hell

Opinion thread, go!

FOnewearl-Lina
Aug 24, 2016, 02:22 AM
Entry Requirements: King Rappy Suit.

Lumpen Thingy
Aug 24, 2016, 02:23 AM
I am 100% for this. Helps keep the scum out of my EQs if they make blocks like this

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 02:23 AM
Entry Requirements: King Rappy Suit.

No thanks, I don't wanna have to grind PSO2es for a literal week.

Ahri
Aug 24, 2016, 02:29 AM
Entry Requirements: King Rappy Suit.

Best, have complete all cos of Aika.

Cyber Meteor
Aug 24, 2016, 02:34 AM
I am 100% for this. Helps keep the scum out of my EQs if they make blocks like this

This block requirement would be for UQ only though not EQ, but it's opened to changes and still rumored so..........:-?

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 02:36 AM
Best, have complete all cos of Aika.

You can cheese the Traces COs if you bring friends, though. It's not that difficult.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2016, 02:38 AM
I find the blocks that only certain people can go into interesting, especially given the criterion they're considering. Even if people want to say the solo eq isn't that hard, you have to admit it at least requires you to have a decent understanding of your class, and how to survive.

There's still some possible problems though.


There isn't really anything preventing someone from doing it as a faceroll class or with a super tanky garbage build and/or going to the block with a different class they're less experienced with.
It doesn't really teach specific mechanics or boss tells which tend to be what kill new players or fail TDs more than an outright lack of skill or gear (not that those don't help).



The rest is in "sure ok" territory for me.


This block requirement would be for UQ only though not EQ, but it's opened to changes and still rumored so..........:confused:There's nothing about it being UQ only, just that the new UQ is what prompted them to consider it. Even if it is labled as an UQ block, there's nothing stopping people from doing EQs on it, if it's a normal block otherwise. People already did that when UQs were popular.

Pyrei
Aug 24, 2016, 02:39 AM
hmm... while that's not really too hard to do solo XQ 1-5, id prefer a specific quest Made for testing players that locks doll usage and tests by giving a challenge based on class, something a little different for each class that really tests to see if you know how to play your class

Ahri
Aug 24, 2016, 02:41 AM
You can cheese the Traces COs if you bring friends, though. It's not that difficult.

For last co of Aika you need use Aika partner on traces XH ONLY.

Tari
Aug 24, 2016, 02:49 AM
All COs that say that you can only bring a specific NPC can still be done with other players. You just can't have any other NPCs with you.

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 02:52 AM
I like to think of the restricted blocks as a way to ensure two things:

1. All players going in at least have a Lv. 75 class.
2. Unless their maxed class is KC Braver or DS main Fighter, they aren't complete shit at PSO2.

They could also pull a fast one and say that you need to finish Stage 1~5 of the upcoming Solo XQ 2 instead.

Pyrei
Aug 24, 2016, 02:56 AM
Unless their maxed class is KC Braver or DS main Fighter, they aren't complete shit at PSO2.

um what's this supposed to mean.... ive carried plenty of TD with katana, and even a few with DS only, these weapons are both really good in right hands

nguuuquaaa
Aug 24, 2016, 02:59 AM
um what's this supposed to mean.... ive carried plenty of TD with katana, and even a few with DS only, these weapons are both really good in right hands

He mean katana bravers and DS fighters can cheese through everything without much skill.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2016, 03:00 AM
um whats this supposed to mean.... ive carried plenty of TD with katana, and even a few with DS only, these weapons are both really good in right handsIt's not that KC users and DS fighters are necessarily bad. Just that they have the potential to cheese fights with I-frames, meaning the player doesn't necessarily have to be good either. I feel like there are other classes that would fit into that too, but I kinda already mentioned that it's a possible flaw in the idea in my own post before and the specifics don't actually matter.

wefwq
Aug 24, 2016, 03:01 AM
A block that'll filled with KC braver yeah, or the one who spend grand for tons of dolls.

Kondibon
Aug 24, 2016, 03:03 AM
A block that'll filled with KC braver yeah, or the one who spend grand for tons of dolls.Too bad you only lose ranks when you go back to the camp ship, not as soon as you die, because requiring an S-rank would solve that second problem easily if that were the case.

vantpers
Aug 24, 2016, 03:09 AM
You guys will just get one pro block that is at max capacity all day where half of the population is comprised of idlers. Glorified first XH block you can't get in unless 90% of server population is sleeping or you were camping it since you had taken that spot.

RIP non prems too.

Zephyrion
Aug 24, 2016, 03:10 AM
...or just a block filled with anything/HU : While this is a nice try to make a block for endgame players, Basing this on solo XQ is well...eh. That kind of block is kind of irrelevant for the time being, unless they add content that would warrant it anyway

New Solo XQ : yaaaay
big EQs making it into the random pool is the big, big thing for me, since I'm European, and this region gets screwed really bad by current EQ schedule, All we get during our evening is Arms/TD1/2/3/Loser/Darker Den and the likes, so having more variety in the random ones just really makes me happy

Pyrei
Aug 24, 2016, 03:10 AM
He mean katana bravers and DS fighters can cheese through everything without much skill.

*shrugs* i'll give you the cheese katana braver (cause yeah its OP and cheap but damn I love killing entire spawns of things with a K combat finish), but DS fi is more than just that new craft deadly circle that blocks everything, if you just used that, you'd take forever in killing things, and youd get killstealed all over the place and have terrible dps even with ds kamitachi ring, (tho you have a point as to ppl wont care about dps or killspeed, but same can be said about hu and elder pain/chainsawd/seiga sword(loosely))

Dammy
Aug 24, 2016, 03:28 AM
so there finally a reason to do XQ

wefwq
Aug 24, 2016, 04:28 AM
so there finally a reason to do XQ
Once you clear it once and get your big guy club pass, you'll lose your reason to do it again.

Dammy
Aug 24, 2016, 04:35 AM
thanks god

Shadowstarkirby
Aug 24, 2016, 06:18 AM
There is a reason to do solo XQ: Toranas (and to a lesser extent, Ore for Spellstones without having to do hundreds of XQ stages), because Sega has forgotten that TD4 exists. Outside of boost week, you were lucky to get even one a week, it was ridiculous, so glhf if you were making Orbits or Austere Units cause your only option was doing the Odin LQ that took over half an hour for one stone and Shit Wars 2016, which while okay now, was a terrible slog for a good couple of weeks after it's initial release. And no, not everyone can buy TD4 triggers, nor will, triggers are bullshit.

In any case, I'd be extremely happy to see at least some of these schedule only EQs finally become random, because ever since EP4, we don't see TD4 or Magatsu much, hell, Profound Invasion barely makes an appearance neither. All these good rewarding EQs are just not appearing in favor of Yamato, PD, and Beach Wars. Arks League tried to shake things up with trying to make old as fuck EQs relevant, but failed in that regard as far as I'm concerned because they still give jack shit and most target enemies were farmed best from any source besides the shit EQ...and you were more likely to win way after it was over by logging on later. TDs and maybe Beckoning Darkess are still the only random EQs that give anything worth a damn, yet stuff like Harkotan's Hot Wheels Turbo Racing continues to pop up giving absolutely nothing. As in 0 rares nothing. With a 250% RDR booster. In 2016. What!? Maybe I could excuse the random EQs besides TDs for not giving stuff if they were fun, but they're not.

As for Solo XQ 2, I welcome it, I hope that it's on a separate time gate from the first. As for Elite Blocks, it definitely sounds like something I can get behind. I would prefer if it was a clear Solo XQ 1-10 requirement, but still, a step in a right direction I appreciate. You can cheese it with Katana Combat and Automate if you stack a bunch of HP, but you have to also remember that this quest is a damage gate, so if you have shit offense and face tank everything, not even those two skills are going to sustain you for 5 floors at a time. Double Saber's Deadly Circle-0 is cheesy too, but at least you need to have self awareness and proper boss knowledge to get decent damage out of it, otherwise your DPP becomes absolutely awful.

starwind75043
Aug 24, 2016, 02:07 PM
While it sounds nice...but if i remember correctly there were people who powered past solo xq by simply using cash shop. Really only way I think that's reasonable is + 4 or 5 jobs at 70 or max lvl. They have taken so drive to get that far and you would hope with that many jobs @ or near max lvl they would understand the game.

Xaeris
Aug 24, 2016, 02:19 PM
It's tenative, so hopefully they revise the block requirement toward something that's not a joke. Floor 1-5? Please.

Hrith
Aug 24, 2016, 02:44 PM
So SEGA bans the use of the damage parser, but will create requirements for blocks, GG.

Good idea, but terrible requirement. That mission is not hard to clear, it's hard(er) to clear the floor objectives >_> They simply need to do an equipment check, really...

Well, I guess players who join Perennial Apocalypse with 11* weapons at 24% element and +5 grind cannot really complete that EX mission, heh, so it at least gets rid of them.

milranduil
Aug 24, 2016, 04:35 PM
So SEGA bans the use of the damage parser, but will create requirements for blocks, GG.

Good idea, but terrible requirement. That mission is not hard to clear, it's hard(er) to clear the floor objectives >_> They simply need to do an equipment check, really...

Well, I guess players who join Perennial Apocalypse with 11* weapons at 24% element and +5 grind cannot really complete that EX mission, heh, so it at least gets rid of them.

no, they can. it just takes 10x longer than it should to do it because they spend 75% of the time running around thinking about what to do and letting pp regen. i've watched "new"/inexperienced players stream varying content and while their damage is terrible, they still try to finish that content. like soloing tacos, but taking 2 and a half hours to do so :D

yoshiblue
Aug 24, 2016, 04:40 PM
Entry Requirements: King Rappy Suit.

100 la squats
100 la warmingup1
100 la boxing2

Everyday, for a entire week.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 24, 2016, 05:26 PM
As bad as the possibility of someone just Br/Huing to get into a special block is, it's kind of bleh when they should really go for a gear check on nearly every EQ that's not meant to baby... may not prevent a person who plays bad from getting in but you wouldn't get some one with a 9*+0 going into TD or Magatsu XH...

It's not like they made it that hard to get 10*s...which them being grinded is all they should really ask for. Maybe some decent armor but usually it's a factor of people not doing enough damage that hurts. I would add in affixing also being a thing. It would be hard to really manage that though...can't just ask for 3+ affixes(you know how many would come with units dropped by gal Gryphon...), and saying "Must have +60 atk and +6 PP minimum" also stomps out those building for more PP or some HP.

While I am carrying on about EQ...this definitely relates to it... especially if there's special blocks that only people who clear a condition can enter. They're all gonna hide out in that block. While I'm upset over the idea of people trying to get carried on ALL EQs, I don't think some one with gear that can keep up should be kept OUT just because they're not super special awesome packing all the heat well geared mofos. I don't mind LEADING in damage, just not being the usual 15% or more of the damage. I am fine with HELPING, just not CARRYING everyone. And when it gets to an EQ where you can not actually carry, it's awful.

In the end, it just makes the divide worse...'super srs' people already have teams just so they can EQ with other very well geared players. XH should be for those who are ready for the big leagues .w.; And they need to enforce that.

Personally, I don't get why they're making UQs such a big deal with gear and ability though. UQs don't have actual time limits, and I never really felt upset that some one has a crap weapon in a UQ that has no time limits or factors of needing to get 3 runs done and a 4th started in under 30 minutes...so why bother with it here? It's also not like ultimate buster is gonna disappear either, so there's that they can use...IDK... it's like they get there's issues, but they're not getting WHERE the issues actually lie...

Also please more random EQs. Especially if it means more of the actual EQs we need. I know this is more than likely going to be Yamato and maybe TD4, but still. Really should only have scheduled EQs for TD4, Progeny, and Magatsu...and I wouldn't mind a chance at a random one of those .w.; I can see making an EQ related to a collection sheet also scheduled for the duration of the collection sheet too.

But then again...do we really need more "here's some damage pots and non-damage pots you'll never use"...

Might need to tone it down on the damage potentials when we hit 14* there....


no, they can. it just takes 10x longer than it should to do it because they spend 75% of the time running around thinking about what to do and letting pp regen.

Just quoting for emphasis. It doesn't help there are guides on how to beat it to help elevate the issue. Plus they are still allowed to use boost items/tree buffs. I imagine some will build a tanky build just to get through...so yeah...

It's not helping in the long run. They will get through eventually, and still try to attack vibrace as it's in the air with their gurren device as a million bugs smash the tower right next to them.

Zysets
Aug 24, 2016, 06:12 PM
I think a "pro block" should be based on Gear, not completing specific missions.

It's not as restrictive, and it's always under geared players that tend to hold everyone back. As long as everyone has proper gear, I don't think it should be too bad of a problem.

And honestly, I thought Sega was all about letting beginners and veterans play together, wasn't that the point of blocking the Parser?

yoshiblue
Aug 24, 2016, 06:18 PM
In sense they're still heading that way. Its just that you have a checkpoint to reach now.

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 06:32 PM
I think it's that they want to make sure veterans have a separate block for doing high-level content. In normal blocks, standard players can eat space in XH blocks without meaning to, which decreases the number of veterans you can stuff into an EQ or Ult field at once.

Keilyn
Aug 24, 2016, 06:39 PM
My question to that effect is
Wouldn't Veterans still run most of the content solo to begin with? I can count on my left-hand fingers all the major times people have a need for grouping. What parameters exist to establish who is a veteran and who isn't? So far this thread has been far more subjective than objective....

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 06:47 PM
My question to that effect is
Wouldn't Veterans still run most of the content solo to begin with? I can count on my left-hand fingers all the major times people have a need for grouping. What parameters exist to establish who is a veteran and who isn't? So far this thread has been far more subjective than objective....

Well, I said opinion thread, didn't I?

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 24, 2016, 06:49 PM
My question to that effect is
Wouldn't Veterans still run most of the content solo to begin with? I can count on my left-hand fingers all the major times people have a need for grouping. What parameters exist to establish who is a veteran and who isn't? So far this thread has been far more subjective than objective....

All the SH free fields and the like yes. UQs and EQs, no. Especially EQs.

I know I never aim for 12 people in a UQ but a friend or random stranger is still better...meaning faster runs.

Personally, subjugation is really only happening because EQs fail far worse than they should... I am more blaming Sega for this than the players who come in poorly geared, as Sega does nothing to demonstrate that they shouldn't be attempting XH...a difficulty intended for the "more hardcore".

I know people will argue those "poor newbies with bad gear can't get 13*" but those 13* were never meant for people who weren't serious in the first place .w.; Anyone half serious will have a friend who's well geared or they'll at least grind out a 9* up to +10.

Plus, this whole scheme Sega has is REALLY based on subjective input from the community. It's not surprising all of our responses are like that .w.;

STILL, I can't say I'm a total fan of being like "no you're not godly you don't deserve to play with us".

Altiea
Aug 24, 2016, 07:07 PM
People do solo UQ. But it's either through a cheese method or their gear is good enough, so the point is moot.

Zephyrion
Aug 24, 2016, 07:23 PM
The big question is still "will Amduscia UQ be worth all this ? Sega might (and probably is) over-estimating the difficulty of it. However, that does mean it will be at least quite harder than current UQs, Said block would likely be dedicated to UQ only, and lock only that particular content., and as long as the community doesn't derail and use this kind of block to exclude newbies from other contents (which I hope won't be the case), this could somewhat work

I really don't know if I like this or not, all will depend on whether Amduscia UQ is ruthless enough to warrant all this.

Naoya Kiriyama
Aug 25, 2016, 07:34 AM
For last co of Aika you need use Aika partner on traces XH ONLY.

You can party up with players anyways

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2016, 07:42 AM
The big question is still "will Amduscia UQ be worth all this ? Sega might (and probably is) over-estimating the difficulty of it. However, that does mean it will be at least quite harder than current UQs, Said block would likely be dedicated to UQ only, and lock only that particular content., and as long as the community doesn't derail and use this kind of block to exclude newbies from other contents (which I hope won't be the case), this could somewhat work

I really don't know if I like this or not, all will depend on whether Amduscia UQ is ruthless enough to warrant all this.I think it has more to do having a way to keep players who don't know what they're doing away from people who do, more than how hard Amduscia UQ is. The creation of the UQ prompted it, but it's not the only thing this would matter for, it's also pretty important for EQs, and I think the idea is solid, but the quest they chose isn't really going to explain the specific mechanics of each quest.

Saffran
Aug 25, 2016, 07:49 AM
>I imagine some will build a tanky build just to get through...so yeah...
I have a tanker build and floor 10 is bullshit to a magnitude higher that everything you might imagine.
They tailored it so that you really must overpower and kill the enemies with your first attack to stand the best chances. Or buy 99 scapedolls I guess.

Xaelouse
Aug 25, 2016, 06:21 PM
We need a new C-mode, not another wack-ass solo quest

Lostbob117
Aug 25, 2016, 06:52 PM
There should be a Hunter Only Block.

vantpers
Aug 25, 2016, 07:40 PM
We need a revival of Ultimate (on the way) and Cmode. Considering that Ultimate map is a bit more work than free field map and both Naberius and Lilipa kept players for far longer than all other forms of contents excluding EQs, Sega has all the reasons to start working on Ult fields. Cmode is pretty much the same. For all the whining and Cmode 2 being half as long with Katana spamming tessen or sakura the only working meta both cmodes also kept their popularity for long. Pretty much died of a case of players having done those already a million times and shit loot after introductions of new 13*.

Goukezitsu
Aug 26, 2016, 01:04 AM
In my opinion, having a block for people who cleared 1-5 is fine. Yes it's not hard for people who typically wouldn't have difficulty with nearly anything in this game (though I think people are under estimating Diabo / Ringada for those who wear unground gryphon units and roundeets), but that's not what it's keeping out. It's keeping out the people who can't even be bothered to run 1-5 in the first place. The people who dial in their EQs with intentionally mismatching under leveled classes for better subclass exp gain and use unground lucky rise equipment to fight in as their only and primary source of combat equipment or people who are playing for reasons that have nothing to do with combat at all (RP or just the experience of seeing a quest unfold).

Most of these people cannot beat 1-5 nor can they clear anything in this game without help and this is only because they do not care and have not been given a reason to do these things. PSO 2 is a unique game where the only detriment to being under leveled and geared is simply a long ass fight. You gotta play longer, but you often don't result in failure for doing so. There's very few things outside of c mode that actually says you lose and kicks you out for doing that. This prompts people to dive into new content and ride on the coattails of people who somewhat or really give a fuck about their personal performance and contribution all while making statements like, "gear doesn't matter" and "12/12s faceroll content anyway."

No, 12/12s do not faceroll content. Upon closer inspection, in most 12 man mpas in the wild there's about 4-5 people (or less) that actually do the majority of the work while the others contribute anywhere from the range of a fair share to absolutely nothing at all. In the rare case of 10-12 people that are all competent, you see mpas that are wildly different in appearance with incredible unrealistic speed when compared to the status quo.

In summary, I think this is a step in the right direction even though 1-5 isn't the perfect assessment. I think perhaps there should be some sort of timed mission that specifically tests to see if you have an adequate skill set and I don't think a gear check alone is going to do that because, if I'm being honest, just because you have the gear doesn't mean you can use it well. The gear is just half the equation. This isn't final fantasy 14 where all you do is auto attack and mash buttons. This is an action rpg and there is physical dexterity and reaction at play here so combat prowess is something that gear alone cannot prove. Also, you can have shitty trees too and that will be worse than some weapons people use.

Someone mentioned they hope this doesn't leave newbies out of the block for other content and my response to that is, so what if it does? New players are new players. If the games so easy, having them all together will be just fine right? They don't need us to win, they won't be alone, and I think that making a restriction finally gives new people a reason to progress in the game instead of just sitting around and waiting for the open arms of Austere-Sempai.

CoWorker
Aug 26, 2016, 01:48 AM
also am i the only one who wants a AFK Block Kick on these special channels? same system on CMode shared ships, where you get kick out if you AFK to long

Pyrei
Aug 27, 2016, 05:03 AM
I've been thinking about the special block thing a lot, and I personally think that they should use multiple quests to lock this block down, more than just solo XQ 1-5, while that's a good start, its just a beginning, as there's a lot of things that make a player good, one of which is sorta forcibly taught to you in cmode1 where you MUST communicate with your mpa to delegate roles and work together to get through the quest, while a few players are good enough to get through mpa based content solo, duo, trio or 4 man, your standard player will not be able to get through by themselves, id definitely want to see something like cmode1 and solo XQ 1-5 put together as reqs, but I still don't think that's enough just a step further in the right direction...

As for the EQ changes,
1. every EQ that has a CF sheet, after it expires that EQ should auto become random EQ
2. the roam EQs should have boosted chances for tagami, mesetan, joker and emp rappy spawns
3. the roam EQs should drop 13* eggs, tagami weapons, and new 13*s from joker and mesetan
4. seasonal EQs are not roam EQs and any CF sheets for these will not be effected, meaning as usual seasonal EQs and their CF go whenever their time is up.
5. in roam EQs, all players start at same point on map, and late arrivals get teleported in using the UQ system of starting a quest.
6. magatsu and td4 are made random EQs as well.

by roam EQs I mean EQs like volcanic guerillas and the wheelie man chase EQ that are pretty much ultra bad due to nature of the quest

elryan
Aug 27, 2016, 09:01 AM
For me, these should be the requirements for a "Veteran Quest" or a "Veteran Block":

- Completed XQ Solo Stage 10. (Yes, there are gimmicks you can use to clear 1-10 such as Katana Combat but that's not the point. I know some IRL friends who are playing Katana Braver and still cannot clear the stage.)

- Is equipped with 12* or 13* weapon at +10 / +40 and max element. If old-school weapon, potential level should be at least 1. Affixes don't matter because most power level comes from the weapon's ATK anyway. Give 4 affixes minimum requirement for weapons and units too for giggles and lulz.

- +10 Rear, Arm, Leg Units at 10* or 11* or minimum Ex8 Crafted.

- At least 800 or 900 HP. Should be enough for buffering deadly hits and easily reachable using 3x Stamina III / IV affixes on units.

- Level 75 main class and Level 75 sub class. We don't want people to join for leveling their main / sub, no? Gathering class Excubes are fine, but doing 70/20 HU/SU is definitely not fine.

EDIT:

Apparently some people are averse of the idea of not having 600 HP in a UQ / tough XQ.

A dead DPS is zero DPS and actually detrimental to other people's DPS because they need to rez you. Instead of getting killed within 2-3 hits, now you can survive 3-4 hits.

TyroneSama
Aug 27, 2016, 09:29 AM
- At least 800 or 900 HP.
RIP literally every high-level Fo/Te

Pyrei
Aug 27, 2016, 01:06 PM
thing about using affixing as a req, theres tons of different affixes out there, its hard to say get this much of anything as a req, as everyone plays differently, some play using 0 hp affixes, others load tons of it on their gear, and to be honest as a glass cannon myself, I don't dis players that have lots of hp affixes, as that person will be around to rez when others make a mistake

pkemr4
Aug 27, 2016, 01:39 PM
- At least 800 or 900 HP. Should be enough for buffering deadly hits and easily reachable using 3x Stamina III / IV affixes on units.

Stop.

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 03:21 PM
Haha 800 to 900 hp? That's your idea of high?

Either way I don't think HP requirements matter for this kind of thing.

Shadowstarkirby
Aug 27, 2016, 03:27 PM
Affix requirements wouldn't work, not only because there's many different viable ways to affix your gear, but because not everyone has the same baseline stats. Since you mention HP in particular, for Newmans vs. Casts, one would have to make sacrifices they may not want to make that 800 HP requirement while the other doesn't. Can't forget class stat differences create an additional discrepancy as well.

Vatallus
Aug 27, 2016, 04:03 PM
Let's be honest. Stage 1-5 of the Solo XQ isn't even the hard part. I'm pretty sure they picked 1-5 instead of 5-10 for reasons.

IchijinKali
Aug 27, 2016, 05:00 PM
Please besides one part of 1-5, floor 3, the XQ is quite easy. Floor three is only hard because the bosses tend to do alot of aoe attacks killing off the mobs that makes the other boss spawn. I did it as a Te/Ra, granted it took awhile because that combo can't solo well, but besides floor 3 I had no trouble.

This requirement is basically saying hey clear this quest we don't care how. You want to buy dolls everytime you die so you don't have to retire and start over be our guest. You want to just level br/hu so you can cheese the whole thing and then go back to your original class combo be our guest. You want to do it as legitimate as possible through skill more power to ya.

Daku
Aug 27, 2016, 05:35 PM
Affix requirements wouldn't work, not only because there's many different viable ways to affix your gear, but because not everyone has the same baseline stats. Since you mention HP in particular, for Newmans vs. Casts, one would have to make sacrifices they may not want to make that 800 HP requirement while the other doesn't. Can't forget class stat differences create an additional discrepancy as well.

A newman force, a fairly common practice, can barely hit this. And a 800+ Requirement would effectively kill what is left of unit extending in fact as my Fo/Te runs a fully extended Saiki.(Which kills the HP per piece Saiki would have otherwise.) I'll die in one hit at PD, I've gotten to a point where I only die 1-3 times throughout the whole EQ if I'm not lagging or distracted by life. My Fo/Te as well has numerous 60 Ele weapons for Light, Ice, Fire all affixed well enough. I'm also not the only forcing running extended Saiki, if a block locks me and the other crazy T-Atk focused Fo/Te out I'd rather run a TD4 or PD on the non 'elite' block since a TD4 run without a Fo/Te is instantly lost.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 27, 2016, 06:19 PM
- At least 800 or 900 HP. Should be enough for buffering deadly hits and easily reachable using 3x Stamina III / IV affixes on units.


God no. This is instant for so many classes, but you're pretty much giving a middle finger salute to any Force or Techer. Yeah, have fun with no Te shifta buffs. And TDs that happen on that block would be so SoL without them too lol.



Apparently some people are averse of the idea of not having 600 HP in a UQ / tough XQ.

A dead DPS is zero DPS and actually detrimental to other people's DPS because they need to rez you. Instead of getting killed within 2-3 hits, now you can survive 3-4 hits.

Or you could just get good at the game. Everyone makes mistakes, and not every one is running Hu sub with automate and iron will :U

Personally, I would rather the game keep up the 2-3 hits while asking those with low health to take higher risks for more damage. Given my deaths when I'm actually focused during a PD ends up being between 0-1 and I'm often rezing those with HP over 1k and all Iron Willed, I think the problem is more of a "oh hey actually get good and dodge."

The fact you want people to be face tanky over actually being good at the game is showing a general lack of understanding. A dead DPS may make for less DPS but given you have to spend 3 seconds to revive a good DPS over a bad DPS with a ton of HP doing nothing, yeah, I would rather take the squishy death bringer. And trust me, if we all tried to raise our HP up to some normal standard of 900, it Sega would balance around this new fad.

Plus, a quick PD is often a PD without deaths, if that's anything to go by.

PS: If I did do Stamina III on all my units I would barely scrap UNDER that 800 HP limit(currently 644 HP btw). I have the level 75 Hu bonus and I have yet to extend all my gear, which, mind you, extended gear for more PP = more DPS. Honestly, I only die on PD because, despite everyone standing directly in front of PD during his third phase, he decides to attack the lone Newman female force in the corner because they do 20% damage despite the other 80% of the damage standing in front of him, whacking his stomach.

But any time his focus is off me, I'm usually perfectly fine. If there's more people taking hits spread through out, there's less dying going on. It honestly sounds more like an issue of people not doing enough damage to spread hate rather than HP issues.

It's not like I'm clueless about all this either. I do plan on (eventually) doing Astral soul for more HP.

Bellion
Aug 27, 2016, 06:33 PM
The argument of a dead DPS = 0 DPS doesn't tell the whole story.
The individual dealing the highest damage has a higher risk of dying and has to deal with much more enemy aggressiveness than the guy that's doing low amounts of damage. So if, the individual dealt 10m to a boss and ends up dying to one mistake whereas the other deals a mere 1m but lives, who contributed more? The one that dealt more damage acts as a sort of "tank" as well. Even certain AoEs target players that dealt the most damage much more.

You know the groups that were capable of actually clearing Challenge Quest 1 within days? The ones that were willing to take risks and actually deal damage at the same time that did take a couple of deaths here and there. Players that played too safe and didn't die ended up slowing down the runs because their damage output didn't make up for it.
As long as you contribute a significant amount of damage that outweighs your death, then it's at that point where you shouldn't feel bad about a death. You just cannot die too often.
Also, you have the option to bring a half-doll now if you feel like you don't want to waste time in an MPA reviving you. Maybe players should start using half-dolls more often, until they run out at least.

tl;dr: sometimes dead DPS = 0 DPS is stupid, especially if you don't see the bigger picture.

vantpers
Aug 27, 2016, 06:44 PM
We should just make red class only block where no tech or ranged class is allowed. And no FILTHY FUCKING BRAVERS AND BOUNCERS YOU ARE GREEN.

I will finally have TD4 where all infected AIS are dunked before they can even do anything and the moons stay at 5 during PD, instead of hearing a bunch of Fo/Te's brag about how they finally managed to die only 2 times after they realized you could just mash the mirage button every time the boss looks funny at you.

Vatallus
Aug 27, 2016, 07:02 PM
I like it when I get to watch Claris Claes roll 600 dmg Rafoies on 584 HP force newmans.

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 07:14 PM
tl;dr: sometimes dead DPS = 0 DPS is stupid, especially if you don't see the bigger picture.I think it goes both ways. There's nothing wrong with going glassy if you can handle it, and even dying a few times is fine. The problem is when people who can't handle a pure dps build try to use one but don't actually know how to play aggressively. They end up spending more time blocking and running around than attacking. When a big factor in your DPS is how aggressive you are about it. It's not like people have to go full tank to survive most stuff anyway. Around 1k hp is enough to tank almost anything a boss throws at you if you have a Te's buffs.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 27, 2016, 07:20 PM
tl;dr: sometimes dead DPS = 0 DPS is stupid, especially if you don't see the bigger picture.

This times a million.

To add to this... if some one has to sacrifice PP and atk to get HP needed, they'll see damage losses. Less PP means less Ragrants to shoot out quickly which means less total compounds for bosses like Magatsu. Doing a quick check myself... it seems I could lose about 10k-20k per hit on a WB'd magatsu weak point if I dropped 205 t-atk... I assume with the varying damage that's about 100k total loss for damage over the whole attack, even more once you apply zanverse. Even more so if techer could shifta strike me. If I do 3-4 of those in a run, that's 300-400k down the drain. Combine that with the damage increase I would have for ragrants and I would be losing a LOT of DPS in the long run. To stat myself over 800 HP I would have to sacrifice either 110 t-atk and 3 PP or 115 t-atk. While this wouldn't hurt as bad as dropping a total of 205 t-atk, that's still quite a chunk to lose.

Also please don't be angry that I didn't do complete math here .w.; Could be more, could be less, just giving a (rather rough) estimate.

It's honestly why I want astral souls so bad lol. 35 HP without losing any atk.

Honestly, what they REALLY need is a class specific quest that is PURELY a huge DPS check. Don't complete it fast enough, no clear. No amount of iron wills, katana combats, and scrape dolls will help you pass it faster. And it only unlocks the class/subclass combo that you completed the quest on for the block, where you can't switch classes while on that block.

It has to be class specific because obviously a techer won't be able to do as high damage as a fighter. This would also technically test skills(more than likely anyway). And while it might harm some tanky builds, those kind of hurt a lot to bring to EQs like TD and magatsu, so...it's hard to even justify them .w.


The problem is when people who can't handle a pure dps build try to use one but don't actually know how to play aggressively.

Just like "Fo/Te, the awakening" when everyone jumped on that train without any level 20 JG rings lol.

And I feel it's more of a case of "don't know how to play safe while getting attacks in between" then Contra 3's intro. I get this is what you're originally trying to say, but it wasn't quite conveyed properly I think.

Also assuming a lot that there will always be Te buffs. Maybe Te sub, but those are not that great for defense...

We should just make red class only block where no tech or ranged class is allowed. And no FILTHY FUCKING BRAVERS AND BOUNCERS YOU ARE GREEN.

I will finally have TD4 where all infected AIS are dunked before they can even do anything and the moons stay at 5 during PD, instead of hearing a bunch of Fo/Te's brag about how they finally managed to die only 2 times after they realized you could just mash the mirage button every time the boss looks funny at you.

Can't tell if serious or trolling.

Zephyrion
Aug 27, 2016, 07:26 PM
Honestly, I still think the best way to test out players would be to do something to Arks Grand Prix along the XQ requirement : set quest with set class combinations and equipment, and see how the player can handle it : XQ takes care of the gear part, the other one of the skill part.

I'd honestly not go farther than that, that lock shouldn't be that trivial, but it shouldn't be an unpassable wall for decent-ish players with decent-ish gear imo

Totori
Aug 27, 2016, 07:37 PM
I guess this is going to be sign that's showing PSO2 isn't trying to even improve or maybe even consider it's balance. Solo XQ is stupid, because it's just a cluster-fuck of AoE's which makes any class combo without a safety net, and fighting damage sponges. Not a sign of skill.

But if that's the route SEGA wants to take, sure. I still fail to see how this in anyway being a good thing. Just gonna add more negativity to that block among other players.

I'd be more glad if they made a mission for the blocks approval, like that limited CQ, or something that allows you to be in at least a group of 4. Since Solo XQ is like the only Solo quest in the game, you would run anyway, it's not preparing you for anything.

Bellion
Aug 27, 2016, 07:39 PM
Yes, it's a matter of if you can play well or not. If you cannot play well, HP affixes won't necessarily prevent your death. If you cannot play well, HP affixes may not even be necessary at all because the boss is probably ignoring you from a lack of DPS in the first place.

If there will be a requirement needed to enter this block, there should be one quest for each class. You may only enter the block with a class that you've cleared the quest(s) for. You're not allowed to change classes in this block, you'd be locked in from whatever class combination you've entered with. Add in some restriction for the subclass as well, but make it based more on level.

milranduil
Aug 27, 2016, 07:44 PM
We should just make red class only block where no tech or ranged class is allowed. And no FILTHY FUCKING BRAVERS AND BOUNCERS YOU ARE GREEN.

I will finally have TD4 where all infected AIS are dunked before they can even do anything and the moons stay at 5 during PD, instead of hearing a bunch of Fo/Te's brag about how they finally managed to die only 2 times after they realized you could just mash the mirage button every time the boss looks funny at you.

i play fo/te exclusively in PD, and barely die. also, mirage is highly flawed because you are not infinitely invincible. there is a huge gap of time at the end of mirage where you can take damage but cannot mirage/move again yet. you are better off abusing tech charge parry and learning attacks to begin with to avoid altogether e.g. not standing in the middle of the platform during phase3's mega slam.

Pyrei
Aug 27, 2016, 07:45 PM
Honestly, what they REALLY need is a class specific quest that is PURELY a huge DPS check. Don't complete it fast enough, no clear. No amount of iron wills, katana combats, and scrape dolls will help you pass it faster. And it only unlocks the class/subclass combo that you completed the quest on for the block, where you can't switch classes while on that block.

It has to be class specific because obviously a techer won't be able to do as high damage as a fighter. This would also technically test skills(more than likely anyway). And while it might harm some tanky builds, those kind of hurt a lot to bring to EQs like TD and magatsu, so...it's hard to even justify them .w.

I can agree with this as one of the reqs, but id still want more than 1 quest as a req, since we went this far it'd be a decent idea to make a quest where various kinds of mobs spawn endlessly and you have to kill them as fast as you can within a time limit as if you were in a burst, put a class specific score on it and boom testing burst/crowd control of each class. And no not like kuron TA or nab 2 start, id make it so that things spawn somewhat off screen an have a chance to ambush you, as well as a wide variety of mobs spawning, even UQ mobs mixed in.

Idk how well a boss only rush version of that would go, and mixing bosses in might be hard for some classes (but doable still just time)

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 27, 2016, 07:46 PM
Yes, it's a matter of if you can play well or not. If you cannot play well, HP affixes won't necessarily prevent your death. If you cannot play well, HP affixes may not even be necessary at all because the boss is probably ignoring you from a lack of DPS in the first place.

If there will be a requirement needed to enter this block, there should be one quest for each class. You may only enter the block with a class that you've cleared the quest(s) for. You're not allowed to change classes in this block, you'd be locked in from whatever class combination you've entered with. Add in some restriction for the subclass as well, but make it based more on level.

Well, I already said that, but, yeah.

But Totori brought up a VERY good point...what about TEAM WORK. Part of me feels like there needs to be more than one requirement. One that tests one's actual ability to work together and one that checks to make sure they're hitting hard enough. The first could be like a 4 person TD4, making sure they can cooperate and react to situations. The DPS check would just be making sure they didn't some how just get through via others pulling weight. It may not keep a terrible player for MPAs out, but it would definitely help.


Idk how well a boss only rush version of that would go, and mixing bosses in might be hard for some classes (but doable still just time) I feel like part of making a "custom quest" for each class would be in part of giving them challenges more specific to their class, with maybe two to choose from for classes like Braver who might opt to go bow, or bouncer who will be doing more mobbing with JB. Something to make it easier on, say, Katana, for braver, rather than just throwing a ton of bosses at a Braver to make it accessible for bow.

milranduil
Aug 27, 2016, 07:46 PM
Well, I already said that, but, yeah.

But Totori brought up a VERY good point...what about TEAM WORK. Part of me feels like there needs to be more than one requirement. One that tests one's actual ability to work together and one that checks to make sure they're hitting hard enough. The first could be like a 4 person TD4, making sure they can cooperate and react to situations. The DPS check would just be making sure they didn't some how just get through via others pulling weight. It may not keep a terrible player for MPAs out, but it would definitely help.

this is too involved for sega to ever implement.

i'd love to see a time limit on XHTA being a requirement. i can hear the whining already l0l

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 07:48 PM
Yes, it's a matter of if you can play well or not. If you cannot play well, HP affixes won't necessarily prevent your death. As someone who plays poorly, I completely disagree. 100-200 extra hp can be the difference between being one shot and being 2shot.

EDIT: no, I take that back, I'm not that bad, this just made me realize why this is bugging me so much. Everyone is acting like there's no room for a middle ground. Like you're either top tier dps or you're not doing anything at all. It just... doesn't make any sense to me.

milranduil
Aug 27, 2016, 07:54 PM
As someone who plays poorly, I completely disagree. 100-200 extra hp can be the difference between being one shot and being 2shot.

EDIT: no, I take that back, I'm not that bad, this just made me realize why this is bugging me so much. Everyone is acting like there's no room for a middle ground. Like you're either top tier dps or you're not doing anything at all. It just... doesn't make any sense to me.

he did though. he said "make sure you're dealing reasonable damage and don't worry about dying a couple times as opposed to dealing next to no damage and not dying"

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 07:55 PM
this is too involved for sega to ever implement.

i'd love to see a time limit on XHTA being a requirement. i can hear the whining already l0lThat's not too involved at all. Just make it a client order that requires you to beat it in a certain amount of time.


he did though. he said "make sure you're dealing reasonable damage and don't worry about dying a couple times as opposed to dealing next to no damage and not dying"I guess my point is that you can deal a "reasonable" amount of damage with a few hp affixes and automate halfline. :/ People are putting the baseline too high imo. I actually have no problem with DPS requirements, but the idea of balancing them around the best of the best is asinine in a game like this.

Pyrei
Aug 27, 2016, 07:56 PM
As someone who plays poorly, I completely disagree. 100-200 extra hp can be the difference between being one shot and being 2shot.

while this is true, a lot of times something runs by my screen and juggle kills me in 2~3 hits from full HP, and I die instantly.... i'd say i'm just being bad but kinda hard to see everything in this game sometimes

Daku
Aug 27, 2016, 08:00 PM
while this is true, a lot of times something runs by my screen and juggle kills me in 2~3 hits from full HP, and I die instantly.... i'd say i'm just being bad but kinda hard to see everything in this game sometimes

This is why I use Arks Mod Tool and wish Sega would just give us in-game options to zoom out the camera. Seriously Arks Mod Tool makes me die far less on ANY class since most of my deaths in a mobby environments are just flat out being blind sided because the default zoom is cardboard tube levels.

Totori
Aug 27, 2016, 08:01 PM
It's just stupid this game wasn't designed with this content in mind. They need to rebalance, and refocus what content to focus on.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 27, 2016, 08:02 PM
I guess my point is that you can deal a "reasonable" amount of damage with a few hp affixes and automate halfline. :/ People are putting the baseline too high imo. I actually have no problem with DPS requirements, but the idea of balancing them around the best of the best is asinine in a game like this.
We...didn't even set specifics though....

Well, I mean, there are a few, but Bellion, Pyrei, and I didn't really mention anything specific, like "Kill 5 wolgahdas in 30 seconds!"

I'm the type to affix 150 t-atk, +35 a 13* NT, and get all my techniques to level 17... And I'm personally not aiming for expectations of more than a 10* with decent base power and a damage potential. Add in 60 atk and 6 PP(or just 3 general good affixes...even make it 30 atk, 6 PP and 50 HP if you want) on all units+weapon and you're set.

But looking at another thread here (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?236377-Sega-talks-the-future-of-PSO2-VR-Harder-Content-and-more), it seems Sega's intentions are on making something for the 13* crowd :/


It's just stupid this game wasn't designed with this content in mind. They need to rebalance, and refocus what content to focus on.

Like nerfing the hell out of JG tech ring and Iron will?

Zysets
Aug 27, 2016, 08:04 PM
When the Odin LQ came out and they had decreased the effectiveness of healing, I saw people talking about the need for defense and and health, but that never actually became anything in the game or the community. I'm kind of disappointed over that.

Bellion
Aug 27, 2016, 08:07 PM
I guess my point is that you can deal a "reasonable" amount of damage with a few hp affixes and automate halfline. :/ People are putting the baseline too high imo. I actually have no problem with DPS requirements, but the idea of balancing them around the best of the best is asinine in a game like this.

Of course, you can always deal reasonable amounts of damage regardless of your affixes. Taking automate-halfline is more than fine since that isn't what ruins a skilltree. You know, the skilltree does make it hard to find a middle ground because of the options that are present. You're sacrificing miniscule s-atk by going with automate + fury, but as soon as you go automate + guard stance you've gone to the opposite side. Most of your damage comes from your skill trees so you either take damage multipliers or you don't.

If anything I want quests that test how well you can play your class, not necessarily a DPS test.

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 08:11 PM
while this is true, a lot of times something runs by my screen and juggle kills me in 2~3 hits from full HP, and I die instantly.... i'd say i'm just being bad but kinda hard to see everything in this game sometimesOh, that's a separate issue, and why I'm glad the bunnies in Las Vegas actually have a warning before they shoot instead of just hitting you out of nowhere. Considering how many times I've died to stuff because I was 100 hp below the damage, though, it certainly helps.


Of course, you can always deal reasonable amounts of damage regardless of your affixes. Taking automate-halfline is more than fine since that isn't what ruins a skilltree. You know, the skilltree does make it hard to find a middle ground because of the options that are present. You're sacrificing miniscule s-atk by going with automate + fury, but as soon as you go automate + guard stance you've gone to the opposite side. Most of your damage comes from your skill trees so you either take damage multipliers or you don't.Uh. I thought we were talking about affixes and unit choices. Skill trees are a whole other animal.


If anything I want quests that test how well you can play your class, not necessarily a DPS test.Same, I think it's what they're going for with the solo XQ, but it's obviously not enough.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 27, 2016, 08:32 PM
When the Odin LQ came out and they had decreased the effectiveness of healing, I saw people talking about the need for defense and and health, but that never actually became anything in the game or the community. I'm kind of disappointed over that.

To be fair, a change in the actual game would require a lot of work on the developers part...and given they already had Las Vegas planned, they had to push forward with that first.

Only huge content coming up is UQ so maybe we'll see it in the future?

Bellion
Aug 27, 2016, 08:48 PM
Uh. I thought we were talking about affixes and unit choices. Skill trees are a whole other animal.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've been stressing about how one plays rather than their affixes + units. No matter what you affix, you're not going to suddenly deal an extra 40% damage or something that dramatic. By all means, affix HP if it helps you play better overall. I have pure offensive units and defensive units myself, and switch depending on how well I am playing at the time. My defensive units help sometimes but I've been hit too many times by cheap stuff from certain enemies that have probably influenced my way of thinking way too much.

Kondibon
Aug 27, 2016, 09:43 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've been stressing about how one plays rather than their affixes + units. No matter what you affix, you're not going to suddenly deal an extra 40% damage or something that dramatic. By all means, affix HP if it helps you play better overall. I have pure offensive units and defensive units myself, and switch depending on how well I am playing at the time. My defensive units help sometimes but I've been hit too many times by cheap stuff from certain enemies that have probably influenced my way of thinking way too much.Then I guess we're in accord. :wacko: sorry for giving you shit about nothing. I switch between two sets, but it really just comes down to changing my back unit.

Pyrei
Aug 27, 2016, 09:54 PM
If anything I want quests that test how well you can play your class, not necessarily a DPS test.

I want this too but how do we test this is the question.

do we make a stage where a br/hu must kill 20~ goldrahda that have 350k HP each within 30 seconds?
do we make a stage where a te/hu must kill 10 kulkonada that have 300k HP each within 30 seconds?
do we make a stage where a fo/te must kill a hard hiting SH DF elder within 60 seconds?
do we make a stage where a ra/hu must kill a vibrace in 60 seconds?

all of this is basic stuff to those that play each of these combos but this doesn't really prove much besides you knowing a bit about your class.

echofaith
Aug 28, 2016, 05:05 AM
Overall, I think is a fair deal. While most would argue 1-5 isnt too hard, it does work as a filter for bottom tier players at least. Namely, those who dont care enough to even try to cheese it. If anything, 6-10 req could actually pose some problems.

I know a friend who dies a lot, but still manages to do good dps in places that matter(PD and Maggie; she plays Fo/te and has good gear). I dont see her clearing 6-10 anytime soon, but she still manages to play aggresively enough to get tops 1st or 2nd in parser back when we could use it. And I am sure there are many other players like that, and it makes sense given how the general difficulty and mechanics of the game work.

Is almost impossible to fail an EQ because of people dying too much. You got moons, and you can even go back to campship in some cases I think. The meta most people aim for is not about beating the boss, but instead how fast you do it. I am willing to bet a big majority of the players who beat 6-10 did it with a suboptimal dps, whether it was from a tanky build, or from playing too defensively. And thats fine, is a fair tactic. I personally went HU/SU and cheesed it only to get my 15 neros for free v:. But if that means the block will have only a few selected DPS players, with the rest being defensive players that would prolong the EQ, I rather stay in the regular block.

What I am trying to say is that setting a filter too high may end up filtering good players. As elitist as it may sound, I would prefer a gear/dps check instead. Of course, the 1-5 skill req is still welcome for reasons I stated earlier. Just not overkill reqs please.

Flaoc
Aug 28, 2016, 06:23 AM
i have over 800 hp on xh on fote as a fem newman i also have austere unit set.. also have 180+ pp and 125 atk (150 atk is actually really overrated) in reality for xh content here is how it goes:

XH and ultimate: good mix of atk pp and hp and resists (if saiki do 1 or 2 hp crafts for 45 or 35pp from units alone and 100 or 200 hp this way u get ur hp without affixing stam and a little bit of strike resist)
SHTA (competitive): triple pp saiki craft (traces uses xh unit set)

Zysets
Aug 28, 2016, 09:32 AM
Overall, I think is a fair deal. While most would argue 1-5 isnt too hard, it does work as a filter for bottom tier players at least. Namely, those who dont care enough to even try to cheese it. If anything, 6-10 req could actually pose some problems.

I know a friend who dies a lot, but still manages to do good dps in places that matter(PD and Maggie; she plays Fo/te and has good gear). I dont see her clearing 6-10 anytime soon, but she still manages to play aggresively enough to get tops 1st or 2nd in parser back when we could use it. And I am sure there are many other players like that, and it makes sense given how the general difficulty and mechanics of the game work.

Actually, you bring up a good point. When I first tried the Solo XQ 1-5, I died a lot, admittedly, but I did get obsessed with beating it, reworked my skill trees (with tips from this very forum), affixed my gear better, then went back and passed it like it was nothing. With that in mind, I think Solo XQ 1-5 could be a good test. Of course the issues people have brought up in this thread exist, but it's hard to avoid them, plus this is Sega we're talking about, I doubt they'd make multiple quests tailored for every class.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 28, 2016, 06:50 PM
Actually, you bring up a good point. When I first tried the Solo XQ 1-5, I died a lot, admittedly, but I did get obsessed with beating it, reworked my skill trees (with tips from this very forum), affixed my gear better, then went back and passed it like it was nothing. With that in mind, I think Solo XQ 1-5 could be a good test. Of course the issues people have brought up in this thread exist, but it's hard to avoid them, plus this is Sega we're talking about, I doubt they'd make multiple quests tailored for every class.

You probably missed the point where we already said people would cheese it though. Scrape dolls or Br/Hu abuse, they would cheese it. They wouldn't give up if all they needed for a carry was 1k AC or a lot of time wasted waiting for KC to come back.

And it's not about Sega being lazy, it's about them needing to realize it's not gonna work unless they put out the effort .w.;


I know a friend who dies a lot, but still manages to do good dps in places that matter(PD and Maggie; she plays Fo/te and has good gear). I dont see her clearing 6-10 anytime soon, but she still manages to play aggresively enough to get tops 1st or 2nd in parser back when we could use it. And I am sure there are many other players like that, and it makes sense given how the general difficulty and mechanics of the game work.

Parser was great for spreading the truth. It's sad so many melee users honestly think that they're doing far better just because they don't die, while their sitting nestled at the bottom of the DPS food chain. Often when it comes to melee users, it's usually the Katana Br and Bos that revive me if I die...who are also the ones who are doing the most damage :/ There's quite often that one Br/Hu or Bo/hu racking up even more damage than me against PD who will toss up a moon almost instantly the moment I go down.

So you usually have the IW/Automate4lief not reviving the high dps while they don't do crap themselves. They would be useful if they helped those with low HP by reviving them alongside Warcry to aid with their sponginess. That's a DPS boost that rarely ever gets mentioned... Anything with an easy to use JG and Hu main/sub can boost the total MPA DPS just by being a distraction that can fight back.

Zysets
Aug 28, 2016, 07:21 PM
You probably missed the point where we already said people would cheese it though. Scrape dolls or Br/Hu abuse, they would cheese it. They wouldn't give up if all they needed for a carry was 1k AC or a lot of time wasted waiting for KC to come back.

And it's not about Sega being lazy, it's about them needing to realize it's not gonna work unless they put out the effort .w.;

Oh no I saw all of that, I've been reading this thread since the start, but of course it couldn't just be straight passing it. Making it cleared in a certain time, or limited/no revivals could be added on top of this. It's not like they can't make this a client order with certain requirements to pass. I don't think Solo XQ is hard enough to limit what classes can clear it, but it is difficult enough that you'd need to known how to play your class and have at least decent gear to reach the end.

Of course this whole thread and the suggestions in it assume that Sega will add this whole new block thing in at all. They obviously don't even raise the level cap because they know that could potentially throw the game's balance out the window, and that would take a lot of work to fix. This is the same, if they don't put in the same amount of work, if not more, it defeats the whole purpose.

Enforcer MKV
Aug 28, 2016, 08:38 PM
It's not like they can't make this a client order with certain requirements to pass.

This seems like the easiest way to get around the majority of concerns people seem to have. Require that each CHARACTER that wants to take part in the private blocks has to clear it, instead of it being account wide. I'm not sure I'd go so far as per class, but then, that would prevent people from cheesing as one class, then switching. No deaths/no scape or half dolls used, etc.

Seems a bit harsh, but then again it looks like people would actually prefer that.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 28, 2016, 09:11 PM
This seems like the easiest way to get around the majority of concerns people seem to have. Require that each CHARACTER that wants to take part in the private blocks has to clear it, instead of it being account wide. I'm not sure I'd go so far as per class, but then, that would prevent people from cheesing as one class, then switching. No deaths/no scape or half dolls used, etc.

Seems a bit harsh, but then again it looks like people would actually prefer that.

If it's class combo, it might not be bad but it's still way more rough for certain classes than others... Hu subs obviously have a huge advantage, and anything with high HP naturally do too.

A time limit/number of death limits would be ok I guess, I just feel like there could be better options...

Vatallus
Aug 29, 2016, 03:04 PM
And people wonder why we want the restricted blocks.

40142

You know exactly what those units are.

Zysets
Aug 29, 2016, 03:31 PM
And people wonder why we want the restricted blocks.

40142

You know exactly what those units are.

I like the check people's equipment as I'm waiting for things to start, and honestly I have never run into someone with this bad of a set up.

I see the complaints so I know it's a problem, but maybe i'm just really, really, really lucky with the random people I play with.

I haven't played FFXIV since the expansion came out, but I really liked FFXIV's item levels, before you can even play certain content, you need your items to be a certain level average, making sure you at least have decent gear for the difficulty of the content. Make blocks with "Item level" restrictions, keep regular XH blocks, but have blocks with restrictions on rarity and grind so you can also play with people with proper equipment. It's not the perfect solution everyone wants, but I feel like just having everyone with decent equipment will do wonders for matching up with random people.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 29, 2016, 04:55 PM
Make blocks with "Item level" restrictions, keep regular XH blocks, but have blocks with restrictions on rarity and grind so you can also play with people with proper equipment. It's not the perfect solution everyone wants, but I feel like just having everyone with decent equipment will do wonders for matching up with random people.
Sadly I feel like at this point we're running around in circles on this subject. Everyone wants those gear restricted blocks and every time something else comes up, it goes back to this.

Either way, we do play games to test our skill. It's just that, at a certain point, too little gear makes it too darn hard to do anything, if not impossible. And that's the biggest problem.

I also think having all the "well geared players" on those blocks would increase pressure for more to grind and acquire decent weapons. The expectations are right there in people's faces and they can't exactly have some one carry them through a gear limit like they can through EQs.

Vatallus
Aug 29, 2016, 05:17 PM
This is how I feel about it. I don't mind playing with people that have worse gear than me. But at least fully grind your stuff. If you are in XH I except to see units +10 and weapons +10 (old) or +30(NT).

If I see things below 10*s I expect to see them extended. I mean we are playing "Extra Hard" to be exact. I feel like having these blocks would convince some of these players to finally grind their stuff fully. To finally craft their 7/8/9 star gear. Maybe even their 10/11*s if they see fit. I just want to see improvements, I want to be able to look at someone's gear and think they are actually trying. I don't want to go into a MPA and see a bunch of lucky rise units. A bunch of +5 weapons and +7 units. I want to feel like people actually care about their gear, and that is all I need to be willing to help them.

I'm all for helping people improve, if they can at least show initiative. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to help new players on my team, or players I've came across looking for others to play with. To only hear things like grinding is too hard. affixing is too hard. I actually had someone tell me getting 13*s even after the introduction of collection sheets was too much work.

If affixing is too hard I can sit down and tell you exactly what to do to make a simple 4 affix that will do what you need it to do. Only to be told buying a bunch of 5k - 40k fodders is too complicated. There is a reason I give up hope when it comes to people. Why I refuse to help people anymore.

Hell, if you even have premium I have a team room with about 10,000 grinders in its storage. You just need premium to access them. Crafting devices are also in there because I never craft besides making PA/Techs.


Edit:

I also want to add a different example.
40143

This is a different game of course, but it has the same concept. People working together to win. To explain, in this match I killed 7 enemies and did over 5,000 damage. It was only a 8 vs 8 match. Way beyond what is expected of a player at this tier. The game was having an event that rewarded higher tier players for playing lower tiers to help show newer players the ropes.

But is that really the best thing? I want to quote what someone said on the forums when people like myself were posting these kinds of screenshots.

So we carried a match, did way beyond what is expected and on top of it we won. Did we really teach them anything? Some of these players will probably look at the scoreboard and realize they need to improve when they see how bad their performance was. Others will think their performance was perfectly acceptable because... they won. They will think what they did was right, because they won, even though they did not win by their own efforts, but someone elses.

What I am saying is, it goes both ways. There is a chance some of these players are not improving because they think what they are doing is right, because they are still winning, even though it might be some other player putting in the effort of 3 or 4 players combined to make that win happen.

Zysets
Aug 29, 2016, 06:15 PM
I find that players who never grind their gear or try affixing are the ones that also don't put any effort in their actual play.

My last PD run went badly, because it felt like some people didn't even bother to dodge Double's flying move. Ran out of Moons before we even got to PD, and that took a good 20 minutes to finish, because no one would go after it's little balls when they'd spawn.

red1228
Aug 29, 2016, 07:38 PM
I find that players who never grind their gear or try affixing are the ones that also don't put any effort in their actual play.

My last PD run went badly, because it felt like some people didn't even bother to dodge Double's flying move. Ran out of Moons before we even got to PD, and that took a good 20 minutes to finish, because no one would go after it's little balls when they'd spawn.
This.Every.Fucking.Run.

Altiea
Aug 29, 2016, 07:56 PM
Am I the only one hoping they chain the entry requirement to the new Solo XQ instead of Heaven and Hell?

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 01:14 AM
This is how I feel about it. I don't mind playing with people that have worse gear than me. But at least fully grind your stuff. If you are in XH I except to see units +10 and weapons +10 (old) or +30(NT). Honestly, I enjoy "leading the pack"...just not...trying to pull a cart full of them as they kind of day dream of being some ultra awesome anime character.


I want to be able to look at someone's gear and think they are actually trying. I don't want to go into a MPA and see a bunch of lucky rise units. A bunch of +5 weapons and +7 units. I want to feel like people actually care about their gear, and that is all I need to be willing to help them. the sad truth is that unless they're putting in the effort to grind their gear and such, they're not putting in the effort to play well via execution either. Gurren for days isn't as effective as actually planning out moves and a bit of Shunka/Sakura to do effective DPSing. And yes, ragrants custom is effective, but you really need to get used to talis and put that rod aside till compounds. The gear I see on people tells me a story about what they would do. I picked up some invader using braver for PD, and they actually did super well, even if the invader katana was still dark element. I judged well of them because they put some effort into their units and rings.

Today I avoided a fighter with an invader... I just looked at their 2 affix units with most of them being only HP and PP... I think they only put 3 PP on each unit ._.; Staying alive is fine but... there's no way you're doing a ton of damage with that low of a PP bar as Fighter.

They also dressed bad but that's really a case by case showing of bad XD;; Not often a good enough sign a player will be awful, but...if you have your superstitions already, probably worth heeding them at that point.



If affixing is too hard I can sit down and tell you exactly what to do to make a simple 4 affix that will do what you need it to do. Only to be told buying a bunch of 5k - 40k fodders is too complicated. There is a reason I give up hope when it comes to people. Why I refuse to help people anymore.
what kills me here is that we really never ask for them to do anything insane. 3-4 affixes is not hard work, it's just "I just want things now for nothing", if anything. It doesn't take that long and I've seen games with FAR worse systems.




Others will think their performance was perfectly acceptable because... they won. They will think what they did was right, because they won, even though they did not win by their own efforts, but someone elses.


AAAAAH. This is exactly the issue here. You have people saying things like this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?236347-Planned-Adjustments-EQs-Special-Blocks-and-Solo-XQ/page6&p=3393128#post3393128) without realizing the insane irony of what is actually going on. Unless they're trolling...then they're probably slamming the point on the head. A TD4 without Br/Hus and Fo/Tes might as well give up, and Bo/Hu dominates PD like no on else.
But there's seriously too many melee users who think they're absolutely nuking the boss despite the boss slamming a giant blade or fist a mile away from them at some one else. And it really isn't just them tbh, but usually any ranged type will be loud, stupid, and use /a on all their autowords, so they're even easier to point out, but honestly kind of rare in comparison. Tech and ranged are often the first to revive me, if not the Br or Bo leading in damage.

It's really annoying. And Sega trying to HIDE it by focusing so much attention on the parser just makes it clear they're well aware of the issue and trying to sweep it under the rug.


This.Every.Fucking.Run.

Meanwhile because all the orbs are taking forever to get destroyed I get back attacked because I'm carrying all the hate and I'm bound to slip up once with an off camera attack. That...feeling.

This is why I really hate to do PD without my friend. It doesn't help I haven't exactly focused on getting any astral souls on my armor yet...

Keilyn
Aug 30, 2016, 01:59 AM
This game has poor class balance, and even poorer subclass balance. The meta is about doing all possible as a group to make the largest DPS combo ever while disregarding almost everything else. Rather than being a game of exploration into the different ways of playing each class, the game moves away from playing as one desires towards one where one has to play directly to a global meta. This results in the game feeling like the same thing regardless of which DPS class is being played..

The creation of private blocks is not going to change the fact that an extremely few amount of people play together outside of Teams or EQs. Have fun playing alone in blocks.. I mean think about it.. How many players in this game actually use the "Premium Set" Block outside of hardcore team recruitment?

Interestingly enough, I don't mind the affix system...
But I knew people who played this game because they didn't want to spend time as a melee class affixing rainbow sets of three weapons including units. All they wanted to do is just-play. Lets say I want to play Braver without having to "affix units or weapons" and i wanted far more realistic combat, but practically all major katana braver moves + a fair level of invulnerability done right.... and an entire world to explore... then why even bother 10 hours with a Braver in PSO-2 when I can just raise the equivalent in Black Desert Online to Level 50 in four - five hours and have balanced damage between Katana and Bow....

Right now, of all the games I've played... to grind/affix a 2 - 3 full rainbow set of weapons to 6s along with Units to 5s - 6s, it takes longer to do this than any weapon set I own in any other game I have. This isn't an exaggeration, or making up some lie. I literally have every major MMORPG I consider decent to my own eyes to have been released in the last 6 years installed in my comp and PSO-2 is the game where I spend entire gaming sessions doing nothing but buying/finding/storing fodder and using an Affix Calculator to work on my affixes...

Not everyone wants to deal with that.
Some people want to JUST PLAY the game...

FOnewearl-Lina
Aug 30, 2016, 02:00 AM
Form a static, problem solved. Easy.

Altiea
Aug 30, 2016, 02:14 AM
This game has poor class balance, and even poorer subclass balance. The meta is about doing all possible as a group to make the largest DPS combo ever while disregarding almost everything else. Rather than being a game of exploration into the different ways of playing each class, the game moves away from playing as one desires towards one where one has to play directly to a global meta. This results in the game feeling like the same thing regardless of which DPS class is being played..

As a Troper, we call this Complacent Gaming Syndrome. It's when pretty much everyone sticks to the same combos/characters/tactics because they're literally more effective than doing anything else. I'll admit, as much as I love this game, PSO2's been hit pretty hard by it (in fact, one could probably list off all of the usable combos straight from memory because there's so few of them).

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 02:47 AM
This game has poor class balance, and even poorer subclass balance. The meta is about doing all possible as a group to make the largest DPS combo ever while disregarding almost everything else. Rather than being a game of exploration into the different ways of playing each class, the game moves away from playing as one desires towards one where one has to play directly to a global meta. This results in the game feeling like the same thing regardless of which DPS class is being played..

The creation of private blocks is not going to change the fact that an extremely few amount of people play together outside of Teams or EQs. Have fun playing alone in blocks.. I mean think about it.. How many players in this game actually use the "Premium Set" Block outside of hardcore team recruitment?

Interestingly enough, I don't mind the affix system...
But I knew people who played this game because they didn't want to spend time as a melee class affixing rainbow sets of three weapons including units. All they wanted to do is just-play. Lets say I want to play Braver without having to "affix units or weapons" and i wanted far more realistic combat, but practically all major katana braver moves + a fair level of invulnerability done right.... and an entire world to explore... then why even bother 10 hours with a Braver in PSO-2 when I can just raise the equivalent in Black Desert Online to Level 50 in four - five hours and have balanced damage between Katana and Bow....

Right now, of all the games I've played... to grind/affix a 2 - 3 full rainbow set of weapons to 6s along with Units to 5s - 6s, it takes longer to do this than any weapon set I own in any other game I have. This isn't an exaggeration, or making up some lie. I literally have every major MMORPG I consider decent to my own eyes to have been released in the last 6 years installed in my comp and PSO-2 is the game where I spend entire gaming sessions doing nothing but buying/finding/storing fodder and using an Affix Calculator to work on my affixes...

Not everyone wants to deal with that.
Some people want to JUST PLAY the game...

unless you're doing 5-6s mod, flict/alter, returner, or astral any other affix is braindead easy and not hard to complete in 5-10min.

Keilyn
Aug 30, 2016, 05:14 AM
unless you're doing 5-6s mod, flict/alter, returner, or astral any other affix is braindead easy and not hard to complete in 5-10min.

Yes.
Its easy once you've obtained everything that you need...
and why wouldn't I be going after Mod, Flickt/Alter, Returner, or in some cases.. Astral?

Zephyrion
Aug 30, 2016, 05:23 AM
This game has poor class balance, and even poorer subclass balance. The meta is about doing all possible as a group to make the largest DPS combo ever while disregarding almost everything else. Rather than being a game of exploration into the different ways of playing each class, the game moves away from playing as one desires towards one where one has to play directly to a global meta. This results in the game feeling like the same thing regardless of which DPS class is being played..

The creation of private blocks is not going to change the fact that an extremely few amount of people play together outside of Teams or EQs. Have fun playing alone in blocks.. I mean think about it.. How many players in this game actually use the "Premium Set" Block outside of hardcore team recruitment?

Interestingly enough, I don't mind the affix system...
But I knew people who played this game because they didn't want to spend time as a melee class affixing rainbow sets of three weapons including units. All they wanted to do is just-play. Lets say I want to play Braver without having to "affix units or weapons" and i wanted far more realistic combat, but practically all major katana braver moves + a fair level of invulnerability done right.... and an entire world to explore... then why even bother 10 hours with a Braver in PSO-2 when I can just raise the equivalent in Black Desert Online to Level 50 in four - five hours and have balanced damage between Katana and Bow....

Right now, of all the games I've played... to grind/affix a 2 - 3 full rainbow set of weapons to 6s along with Units to 5s - 6s, it takes longer to do this than any weapon set I own in any other game I have. This isn't an exaggeration, or making up some lie. I literally have every major MMORPG I consider decent to my own eyes to have been released in the last 6 years installed in my comp and PSO-2 is the game where I spend entire gaming sessions doing nothing but buying/finding/storing fodder and using an Affix Calculator to work on my affixes...

Not everyone wants to deal with that.
Some people want to JUST PLAY the game...

I think the class combination system works perfectly fine. Sure the possibilities aren't endless but every class works perfectly fine with one, two, of three subclasses. I mean there are a lot of niche builds that work fine too, but let's just list the classics
Generalists Builds
HU/FI
FI/HU
BR/HU
RA/HU
GU/HU or GU/RA or even GU/FI if it's your thing
FO/TE or FO/BR (less efficient but still working as a FO)
TE/HU, TE/FI TE/BR
BO/HU (sometimes BO/FI : doesn't work as well as BO/HU but efficient enough to be included here imo)
SU/FI , SU/BR, SU/BO

And that's not to mention all the specialist builds like GU/TE, BR/GU and the likes. the limitation in playable classes mainly comes from the fact that aforementioned classes don't require some kind of coordination or aren't specialized in anything, but in the right situatiion, specialists don't have any problems as far as DPS goes.

To me it just feels that because of main class bonus and *13, people have felt a lack of variety because of some class combos dying away, but the variety is still there, and balance is still okay enough to rock the main class you like, even though you might not have a huge choice pool for subclasses at times.

For the block thing, if anything, it feels to me they are not doing this for EQ, but specifically for non-EQ content ; bringing out riding quest, UQ amduscia, and probably other similar content brings out the problem of finding people to play hard/scoring based content together outside of EQs. private blocks is a debatable solution, but it goes to show it's exactly the issue they are trying to deal with.

You don't need to own a rainbow set for any class, unless you're an enthusiast and passionate FO/TE (TE got away with wand Echange now). And most people sticking to this class combination are willing to pull off everything to make it OP. Every other class can get away with one or two affixed weapons and units. BO/HU doesn't need a rainbow set of DBs to be efficient either : Break SD bonus does the work just fine and lets you be efficient enough with DBs.
While people not grinding/affixing stuff is partly due to the game not underlining the importance of it well enough, I still feel it's kind of the player's responsibility to do something about it.
I remember wondering about affixes, thinking it would be awful, but just searched the internet, stumbled on Selphea's affixing guide, applied the 4s recipe without even trying to understand and made a bunch of 4s units in 30 minutes for the whole process. Grinding especially NT I figured out pretty quick since it's much simpler than old-style and just flows well. PSO2 is probably one of the easiest game to get stuff to a decent level without doing some crazy stuff
.

Pyrei
Aug 30, 2016, 05:46 AM
this started as a reply to keilyn's post but uh I sorta got into it and it turned out rather long, sorry in advanced ^^;

1st paragraph - this is a sort of dilemma that sega has, if you let ppl play as they want this leans to mostly solo/single party quests where nothing is expected of the player except killing a boss however this allows creativity on how you play the game much like some games like idk skyrim or fallout4 where theres all sorts of things out there and systems to learn, and the flip side is what we have now meta meta meta or you will be terrible in terms of actual helping out your mpa, mpa content for this game has no choice but to conform to the meta classes because if they droped the bar down to the level of play w/e you want classes then the meta players would destroy everything like it was a joke (and I mean far more than we already do) and if play as you please classes were buffed its highly likely the meta classes would change or abuse the buffs to become more powerful. atm sega seems to like the current balance of power between each class, all the things we've gotten over the last few months have been micro enhancements (minus DS kamitachi ring) to each class. so we can see sega is preserving the balance as much as they can.

2nd paragraph - ppl used to use premium blocks for magatsu but now idk,ppl want high tier blocks because others aren't courteous enough to care about their gear, they expect to be moon'd when they die and they don't really care if they found the strongest weapon in the game that others would kill for, they'll still use it at +5 and think that's good enough, and while a lot say they want to help others its just impossible to help everyone. a lot of us here say gear isn't hard to make and that is true, however it is also false, very false in fact as things aren't taught to players as what is good or what is bad, truth be told if it wasn't for my old mentor mouse teaching me not to juggle mobs with daggers, how to dps with DS, how to make good gear, how to make good skill trees, how to dodge (dem clutch dodges), how to affix gear, etc the list goes on and on, I'd still be one of those green newbies that just does w/e with their gear and attacks. and its not just eng players, today in TA sets I met 2 JP players that didn't know anything about how to run TAs, the kind that sorta like to follow you everywhere and youre like great... I gotta do all the work because this guy hasn't googled pso2 TAs, but in reality no one knows TAs till someone teaches them where to go, what to ignore, what to kill, where not to go, etc. and there was a time where all of us where learning this junk, to run them, and if you didn't learn TAs you learned another way to make meseta, and the tricks and secrets behind that, and either you did all the research yourself making tons of mistakes along the way or someone else taught you. everything in pso2 is just like this, and only now after 4 years sega is slowly making tutorials of all this stuff. I said all this to say we need sega to make players not only aware of the systems in pso2 but make players utilize them, things like reqs on a block help (while not much) with this as once the high lv players that used to carry others leave to go to this new block mpas outside of this block will change quite noticeably and players will do what they have to do to get through the reqs to get into the new block, which should make at least a few players realize they need better gear and upgrade.

third paragraph - two things here, 1. only 2 classes NEED rainbow weapons, element stance bouncers most notably fi/bo, and fo/te due to element convert, melee te used to need rainbow but that has now been adjusted to not be necessary anymore (tho I REALLY hate the zondeel elem change on that ring), no other class especially melee needs rainbow weapons, it is perfectly fine to get the strongest weapon you can get and put light or fire element on it and use it against everything under the sun. 2. affixing isn't hard, now it is infuriating to be sure (dudu failed 96% twice in a row today for me -_- ), but its not hard simple 2 slot affixes are all most ppl want to see on a new player to show they are trying, 2 slots that's it just a atk soul and stat3, while yes you can go further but all everyone wants is for this minimum to be affixed onto your gear so that you can deal decent damage and +10 (or +30 for nt) on your weapons so things don't take forever to kill. this minimum is all any player wants to see, it says I'm new but I care, I want to be able to help. if every player did this minimum man... you'd see incredible mpas wasting content like I was nothing, because this is all the current content we have is made for, a group of newbies with good 10* units +10ed with 60 atk, and new type 10*s at +30 and 50 element, when you have mpas of mostly good competent players things never stand a chance as everything just drops dead, and its funny because no one really has to say a word mostly.

lastly a big part of playing the game is using the systems that make it up, pso2 isn't a solo game, there's nothing to explore due to nothing of value droping from boxes. everything in pso2, revolves around killing some target, so a big part of playing the game is getting better at killing things, just playing the game means you'll have to upgrade your gear someday, this whole block thing is really just a way of sega making players do so.

red1228
Aug 30, 2016, 06:00 AM
[SPOILER-BOX]this started as a reply to keilyn's post but uh I sorta got into it and it turned out rather long, sorry in advanced ^^;

1st paragraph - this is a sort of dilemma that sega has, if you let ppl play as they want this leans to mostly solo/single party quests where nothing is expected of the player except killing a boss however this allows creativity on how you play the game much like some games like idk skyrim or fallout4 where theres all sorts of things out there and systems to learn, and the flip side is what we have now meta meta meta or you will be terrible in terms of actual helping out your mpa, mpa content for this game has no choice but to conform to the meta classes because if they droped the bar down to the level of play w/e you want classes then the meta players would destroy everything like it was a joke (and I mean far more than we already do) and if play as you please classes were buffed its highly likely the meta classes would change or abuse the buffs to become more powerful. atm sega seems to like the current balance of power between each class, all the things we've gotten over the last few months have been micro enhancements (minus DS kamitachi ring) to each class. so we can see sega is preserving the balance as much as they can.

2nd paragraph - ppl used to use premium blocks for magatsu but now idk,ppl want high tier blocks because others aren't courteous enough to care about their gear, they expect to be moon'd when they die and they don't really care if they found the strongest weapon in the game that others would kill for, they'll still use it at +5 and think that's good enough, and while a lot say they want to help others its just impossible to help everyone. a lot of us here say gear isn't hard to make and that is true, however it is also false, very false in fact as things aren't taught to players as what is good or what is bad, truth be told if it wasn't for my old mentor mouse teaching me not to juggle mobs with daggers, how to dps with DS, how to make good gear, how to make good skill trees, how to dodge (dem clutch dodges), how to affix gear, etc the list goes on and on, I'd still be one of those green newbies that just does w/e with their gear and attacks. and its not just eng players, today in TA sets I met 2 JP players that didn't know anything about how to run TAs, the kind that sorta like to follow you everywhere and youre like great... I gotta do all the work because this guy hasn't googled pso2 TAs, but in reality no one knows TAs till someone teaches them where to go, what to ignore, what to kill, where not to go, etc. and there was a time where all of us where learning this junk, to run them, and if you didn't learn TAs you learned another way to make meseta, and the tricks and secrets behind that, and either you did all the research yourself making tons of mistakes along the way or someone else taught you. everything in pso2 is just like this, and only now after 4 years sega is slowly making tutorials of all this stuff. I said all this to say we need sega to make players not only aware of the systems in pso2 but make players utilize them, things like reqs on a block help (while not much) with this as once the high lv players that used to carry others leave to go to this new block mpas outside of this block will change quite noticeably and players will do what they have to do to get through the reqs to get into the new block, which should make at least a few players realize they need better gear and upgrade.

third paragraph - two things here, 1. only 2 classes NEED rainbow weapons, element stance bouncers most notably fi/bo, and fo/te due to element convert, melee te used to need rainbow but that has now been adjusted to not be necessary anymore (tho I REALLY hate the zondeel elem change on that ring), no other class especially melee needs rainbow weapons, it is perfectly fine to get the strongest weapon you can get and put light or fire element on it and use it against everything under the sun. 2. affixing isn't hard, now it is infuriating to be sure (dudu failed 96% twice in a row today for me -_- ), but its not hard simple 2 slot affixes are all most ppl want to see on a new player to show they are trying, 2 slots that's it just a atk soul and stat3, while yes you can go further but all everyone wants is for this minimum to be affixed onto your gear so that you can deal decent damage and +10 (or +30 for nt) on your weapons so things don't take forever to kill. this minimum is all any player wants to see, it says I'm new but I care, I want to be able to help. if every player did this minimum man... you'd see incredible mpas wasting content like I was nothing, because this is all the current content we have is made for, a group of newbies with good 10* units +10ed with 60 atk, and new type 10*s at +30 and 50 element, when you have mpas of mostly good competent players things never stand a chance as everything just drops dead, and its funny because no one really has to say a word mostly.

lastly a big part of playing the game is using the systems that make it up, pso2 isn't a solo game, there's nothing to explore due to nothing of value droping from boxes. everything in pso2, revolves around killing some target, so a big part of playing the game is getting better at killing things, just playing the game means you'll have to upgrade your gear someday, this whole block thing is really just a way of sega making players do so.[/SPOILER-BOX]
Oh Mah Gawd... http://images.memes.com/meme/898670

Raujinn
Aug 30, 2016, 06:31 AM
unless you're doing 5-6s mod, flict/alter, returner, or astral any other affix is braindead easy and not hard to complete in 5-10min.

Eh to be fair most of the difficulty here is in how hard it is to get the materials or the ridiculous odds involved (fucking soul catalysts) as well as the fact you can completely drain the entire server's supply of materials just for one unit if going for 6s+ depending on what you're affixing (I managed to do that recently on 5s..).

Affixing's innate difficulty has always been having to plot out multiple layer's worth of affixes in order to get the best chance or the lowest cost (or some fine balance between) you can give yourself which can get surprisingly complicated (particularly if you throw in Astral Soul). The complexity scales quadratically with the number of slots you want. It got a lot easier after the addition of receptors and the increased flexibility of soul boosts at least.

I mean, it's the only part of the game I need a simulator for aside for skill trees so that's gotta mean something...

e: Ehh thinking it through I'm not really disagreeing here. Flict/Mod/Returner/Astral alone do add an additional layer of complexity as you need to plan around them even ignoring things like transfer rates. 6s say Soul Stat Stat Stat Stat Boost if you were to make such a thing would be relatively straight-foward.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 07:05 AM
AAAAAH. This is exactly the issue here. You have people saying things like this (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?236347-Planned-Adjustments-EQs-Special-Blocks-and-Solo-XQ/page6&p=3393128#post3393128) without realizing the insane irony of what is actually going on. Unless they're trolling...then they're probably slamming the point on the head. A TD4 without Br/Hus and Fo/Tes might as well give up, and Bo/Hu dominates PD like no on else.
But there's seriously too many melee users who think they're absolutely nuking the boss despite the boss slamming a giant blade or fist a mile away from them at some one else. And it really isn't just them tbh, but usually any ranged type will be loud, stupid, and use /a on all their autowords, so they're even easier to point out, but honestly kind of rare in comparison. Tech and ranged are often the first to revive me, if not the Br or Bo leading in damage.

It's really annoying. And Sega trying to HIDE it by focusing so much attention on the parser just makes it clear they're well aware of the issue and trying to sweep it under the rug.

Meanwhile because all the orbs are taking forever to get destroyed I get back attacked because I'm carrying all the hate and I'm bound to slip up once with an off camera attack. That...feeling.

This is why I really hate to do PD without my friend. It doesn't help I haven't exactly focused on getting any astral souls on my armor yet...
I have found one of the dumbest posts yet. Do you realize how much of a real unironical scrub you are if you require Br/Hus or Fo/Tes to get S rank TD4? Do you just plainly ignore all those joke run videos with people using one weapon only like WL or Sword and not pulling out any AIS? The funny part is that the people in those videos often aren't even good. And no Bo/Hu doesn't dominate PD. Fo/Te blows him out of the water that's for one. If you take your time to analyze solo videos you even have Partizan Hu/Fi and Fi/Hu (not partizan) doing better than Bo/Hu. You can't even get what's OP right, please stop discussing game balance. TD4 in PUG isn't about playing Dynasty Warriors, and even then Hu/Fi or Fi/Hu are good enough at it, but rather making sure people use AIS properly and there is always someone on Exodas. Funnily enough the best Exoda killer when it comes to volume it can handle is probably Hu/Fi using volg and sacred skewer.

I need red class only blocks precisely to escape shit Fo/Te's and people who come thinking they will be carried by shit Fo/Te's.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 10:39 AM
Yes.
Its easy once you've obtained everything that you need...
and why wouldn't I be going after Mod, Flickt/Alter, Returner, or in some cases.. Astral?

don't be patronizing, what are you actually affixing?

Funnily enough the best Exoda killer when it comes to volume it can handle is probably Hu/Fi using volg and sacred skewer.

what an unironical joke you are.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 10:48 AM
what an unironical joke you are.
Sacred Skewer saves the trouble of running up to each Exoda and multiplied volg damage is enough. It's about taking on as many as possible.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 11:02 AM
Sacred Skewer saves the trouble of running up to each Exoda and multiplied volg damage is enough. It's about taking on as many as possible.

they spawn either close together or not at all (together w3/w5) and then they're close enough to run from one to the other. you are better off using volg + peakup throw to save PP and is faster.

wefwq
Aug 30, 2016, 11:15 AM
And people wonder why we want the restricted blocks.

40142

You know exactly what those units are.
I'm surprised these kind of greedy people still exist after stone and file grind being a thing now.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 11:15 AM
they spawn either close together or not at all (together w3/w5) and then they're close enough to run from one to the other. you are better off using volg + peakup throw to save PP and is faster.
Volg and Skewer is for when they are not close at all and you are looking to kill at least 3 on your own before they fire cannons, or it's useful when you are late to some spawn. You generally don't need Skewer in semi competent MPAs.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 11:21 AM
Volg and Skewer is for when they are not close at all and you are looking to kill at least 3 on your own before they fire cannons, or it's useful when you are late to some spawn. You generally don't need Skewer in semi competent MPAs.

ok you're talking about w4 in which case they are on opposite sides of the map. good luck getting from 1 to the other before they fire.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 11:36 AM
It's probably doable if you just stand closer to the middle. Doing one normal volg combo with pick up and then dropping skewers on Exoda farther away is still faster if they are close. Triple Exoda spawns are pretty soloable.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 11:49 AM
I have found one of the dumbest posts yet. Do you realize how much of a real unironical scrub you are if you require Br/Hus or Fo/Tes to get S rank TD4? Do you just plainly ignore all those joke run videos with people using one weapon only like WL or Sword and not pulling out any AIS? The funny part is that the people in those videos often aren't even good. And no Bo/Hu doesn't dominate PD. Fo/Te blows him out of the water that's for one. If you take your time to analyze solo videos you even have Partizan Hu/Fi and Fi/Hu (not partizan) doing better than Bo/Hu. You can't even get what's OP right, please stop discussing game balance. TD4 in PUG isn't about playing Dynasty Warriors, and even then Hu/Fi or Fi/Hu are good enough at it, but rather making sure people use AIS properly and there is always someone on Exodas. Funnily enough the best Exoda killer when it comes to volume it can handle is probably Hu/Fi using volg and sacred skewer.

I need red class only blocks precisely to escape shit Fo/Te's and people who come thinking they will be carried by shit Fo/Te's.

I still can't tell if this person is trying to troll or still just really doesn't get it.

Like if you want your melee dream team, go play on a Vita block. Most people have just given up trying ranged and tech there so they all melee.

Then tell me how a TD run goes there.

Edit: Oh, I should probably mention that you clearly don't know how broken Bo/Hu can be if there's a boss with a focus on breakable parts. It's...usually common knowledge to anyone who's been in the community for a while.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 12:06 PM
I still can't tell if this person is trying to troll or still just really doesn't get it.

Like if you want your melee dream team, go play on a Vita block. Most people have just given up trying ranged and tech there so they all melee.

Then tell me how a TD run goes there.

Edit: Oh, I should probably mention that you clearly don't know how broken Bo/Hu can be if there's a boss with a focus on breakable parts. It's...usually common knowledge to anyone who's been in the community for a while.
I never noticed Vita players not using ranged or tech classes. I have only noticed them sucking at whatever class they are playing and me topping those TD scoreboards with melee anyway. Vita actually has plenty of your glorified Br/Hus needed to carry TD4 in their MPAs and some shit usually Fo/Te. Nobody ever really needed a Force to S rank TD4 or any TD.

And no Bo/Hu is mediocre at solo kill time in PD, so there is no reason why he would be top tier in MPA, I don't see any Bo/Hu doing 20 minutes on PD. I also wonder if all of those Bo/Hus even have their Nirens ready, god forbid there is one Bo/Hu who disregarded break stance.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 12:17 PM
I never noticed Vita players not using ranged or tech classes. I have only noticed them sucking at whatever class they are playing and me topping those TD scoreboards with melee anyway. Vita actually has plenty of your glorified Br/Hus needed to carry TD4 in their MPAs and some shit usually Fo/Te. Nobody ever really needed a Force to S rank TD4 or any TD.

And no Bo/Hu is mediocre at solo kill time in PD, so there is no reason why he would be top tier in MPA, I don't see any Bo/Hu doing 20 minutes on PD. I also wonder if all of those Bo/Hus even have their Nirens ready, god forbid there is one Bo/Hu who disregarded break stance.

ponthi has solo'd pd with bohu in 25min. i'd hardly call that garbage. he hasn't tried with bo that many times either, and will probably get it down to 22 or 23min.

Raujinn
Aug 30, 2016, 12:25 PM
This seems like one of those times where someone's not going to admit they're wrong despite the piles of data contrary to them..

Like I assume the fastest times are still with BrGu (or was that more a specific MPA thing not a solo thing.. bit out of the loop)? How do some of the more well tried combos stack up and where does BoHu fit? Genuinely curious.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 12:31 PM
This seems like one of those times where someone's not going to admit they're wrong despite the piles of data contrary to them..

Like I assume the fastest times are still with BrGu (or was that more a specific MPA thing not a solo thing.. bit out of the loop)? How do some of the more well tried combos stack up and where does BoHu fit? Genuinely curious.

brgu never solos anything, it's a group only thing. the fastest new pd solo time is 20:00 fote (ponthi ofc lol), fastest vita solo time is 23:04 fote. fastest group time is 3:40, no idea how many of what they use, though my guess would be 1 bote 2 brgu 1 tera 8 fote or something. the fact that bo can solo in 25min without perfected strats is a sign that it's probably pretty good.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 12:32 PM
ponthi has solo'd pd with bohu in 25min. i'd hardly call that garbage. he hasn't tried with bo that many times either, and will probably get it down to 22 or 23min.
I haven't seen the video if it's up somewhere, but it's probably just some tweet I missed. Wired Lances are 2 minutes slower and I won't count on getting it down without other weapons doing it either. Fi/Hu should have a faster clear somewhere.

Raujinn
Aug 30, 2016, 12:33 PM
Within 5 minutes of fastest ever is fairly notable yeah.

Xaeris
Aug 30, 2016, 12:34 PM
fastest [PD] group time is 3:40, .

This is some witchcraft I'd like to see in action.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 12:43 PM
I haven't seen the video if it's up somewhere, but it's probably just some tweet I missed. Wired Lances are 2 minutes slower and I won't count on getting it down without other weapons doing it either. Fi/Hu should have a faster clear somewhere.

my whole point was that bohu is not garbage at pd which you've now ignored.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 12:46 PM
my whole point was that bohu is not garbage at pd which you've now ignored.
I didn't call it garbage. I called it mediocre like most classes. I haven't seen what Ponthi did but it's probably actually having Niren ready while other videos probably used Break Stance without it. The point is that Bo/Hu is just up there with plethora of other classes which is what the discussion is about. And still outclasses by Fo.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 12:48 PM
I never noticed Vita players not using ranged or tech classes.

Just because you want it to be true and say it, doesn't make it true. The vast majority of Vita players do Melee. That's a literal fact...



I have only noticed them sucking at whatever class they are playing and me topping those TD scoreboards with melee anyway. Vita actually has plenty of your glorified Br/Hus needed to carry TD4 in their MPAs and some shit usually Fo/Te. Nobody ever really needed a Force to S rank TD4 or any TD.

You never S ranked TD4, have you? It pretty much REQUIRES Force to be there. It requires at least 4-5 forces, 2 rangers, and a Hu/Fi. Everyone else has to also be very good mobbing while the Rangers and Hunter need to be on every boss instantly. Then everyone actually has to be good at AIS. TD3 even more so. The Forces also allow for some back up boss damage due to ragrants and compounds.

Seeing as I've actually been part of a S rank TD4, I would actually know ._.;


And no Bo/Hu is mediocre at solo kill time in PD, so there is no reason why he would be top tier in MPA, I don't see any Bo/Hu doing 20 minutes on PD. I also wonder if all of those Bo/Hus even have their Nirens ready, god forbid there is one Bo/Hu who disregarded break stance.

Solo videos don't mean much when you're looking at general DPS over all. I can guarantee people are gonna keep pushing and pushing them solo videos to get quicker and quicker. Using extreme examples doesn't point out crap, it just shows people exceeding beyond expectations.

I guess I will admit that Fo/Te will do better solo, but in general, while applying all them buffs and such in a party, Bo/Hu not only has some advantage in damage but survibility as well. Dying may not mean you're doing poor damage, but it IS still down time.

Plus, I could show you a video of some one clearing Solo XQ 1-5 with Bo/Br in a reasonable time without getting hit, but it doesn't mean that class combo is over powered.


I didn't call it garbage. I called it mediocre like most classes. I haven't seen what Ponthi did but it's probably actually having Niren ready while other videos probably used Break Stance without it. The point is that Bo/Hu is just up there with plethora of other classes which is what the discussion is about. And still outclasses by Fo.

Doesn't this hurt your original argument where you said Forces were awful? And that Hu and Fi are gods?

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 01:05 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27882408

Don't mind this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk05H38k81w

Don't look here also.

milranduil
Aug 30, 2016, 01:10 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27882408 

Don't mind this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk05H38k81w

Don't look here also.

first link doesn't exist.

2nd, is your point that you can srank without fo? ok good job. thats a 20min run. disgusting.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 01:15 PM
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm27882408 

Don't mind this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk05H38k81w

Don't look here also.

Techer mains, all having access to Ragrants, 8 of them are Br sub, 1 is fo, and 3 is Hu.

That...just brings my point to an extreme of it's better to have Fos who can do better than Tes...

Given these people did it as a challenge, yeah...

Keep in mind your original argument was that forces were horrible at things like TD and PD. And my argument is to say the opposite ._.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 01:20 PM
first link doesn't exist.

2nd, is your point that you can srank without fo? ok good job. thats a 20min run. disgusting.

First link had a space in url which was fixed. I would like to point out that I was responding to guy who honestly believes S rank is impossible without Force on top of several other things. I would like to point out the link didn't include any AIS deployment. I would also like to point out that it doesn't matter in TD4 besides muh ticking boosts.

And no don't just say in your previous post how Force is required and everyone has to be very good at AIS to stand a chance at S rank and then just ignore a video that only used wands and 1 guy had Force sub, on top of not having used AIS. Words mean things and melee only can do fine in any TD if you have competent people.

And no your whole argument was that having (list of requirements) in TD4 is required for S rank. I called Force players shit several times precisely with you in mind since if you need all of that to S rank one EQ you are pretty shit and I would honestly have melee only block rather than play with your kind of Force.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 01:46 PM
First link had a space in url which was fixed. I would like to point out that I was responding to guy who honestly believes S rank is impossible without Force on top of several other things. I would like to point out the link didn't include any AIS deployment. I would also like to point out that it doesn't matter in TD4 besides muh ticking boosts.

And no don't just say in your previous post how Force is required and everyone has to be very good at AIS to stand a chance at S rank and then just ignore a video that only used wands and 1 guy had Force sub, on top of not having used AIS. Words mean things and melee only can do fine in any TD if you have competent people.

And no your whole argument was that having (list of requirements) in TD4 is required for S rank. I called Force players shit several times precisely with you in mind since if you need all of that to S rank one EQ you are pretty shit and I would honestly have melee only block rather than play with your kind of Force.

You proved me wrong by proving my original point was right? Yeah, you proved that you can win without forces, by showing me a video of weaker forces S ranking. Ok? That shows your original insane idea of a strike only block without Br or Bo being a good idea as something insane.

And yeah, while I would want you on your melee only block where you think you honestly carry the whole TD with terrible strategies that you demonstrated would be locked into all the failing TDs, I think the original point stands against your skewed ideals.

And that's the whole point of my argument. And my reference to you later is pointing out the irony that you call the people out who are letting you win just like Vatallus mentioned. You have this screwed up idea that because the MPA won, you did great. Meanwhile, I fact check. I had parser up when I was TDing and I also am willing to admit faults. I try to avoid engaging in "Epic AIS vs Exoda AIS BATTULS" because I know player AIS are not supposed to do that, but rather go after towers, then mooks, then bosses. Only time they should ever attack an exoda is to laser one/two from using their laser on a tower.

Like I said, if you want your melee only blocks, go on Vita. See how well it goes.

Edit: Also that nicovideo demonstration is sketchy if it starts at wave 5... it doesn't help wave 5 and 6 are very boss heavy where holding current would let them go to town... I would also like to note these are organized groups as well. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm impressed they even did that, but it's...still off.

It makes me realize I need to work harder on forming my own team ._.;

Daku
Aug 30, 2016, 01:53 PM
If you referring to me, I was referring to PUG runs... where at least half the players as parser has revealed are bad and even if they ran something "OP" would perform considerable poorly compared to Pre-made MPA where you may not necessarily 'need' a Force, but in a pug, I'm sure as hell gonna go into TD4 as a Fo/Te with gear far above what should be need to pick up the slack, call me and other Forces 'shit' all you will but part of winning is really just realizing whats OP and using it while the scrubs are often the one deriding over such a choice. Kinda funny.

Since I don't have enough friends/team members for a full MPA I often look at things from the perspective of a PUG player, where a Force and good AIS usage are essentially needed because you need to carry some slack, which a Fo/Te's pure ability to mob and kill two Exoda back to back without taking so much as a breathe is far appreciated, I'm not saying we carry the entire TD... but my best TD4 run to date has been when I was and 3 friends queued into a MPA all as Force and had a strat where all of us where somewhat close to a tower to intercept any mooks, compound is also arguably one of the best things to stun apprentice with since it may as well have a 100% burn rate.

Also that techer only MPA was an organized group, of course it's gonna pass well, all the players likely had great gear for one... a huge thing over a pug where a force in any TD4 could have a 20 wind rod at +0 for all you know. If that techer MPA was a pug by some chance, at least 8 of them would lack the firepower to do anything.

I'm not even trying to say force carries the MPA or anything since variety is important, but a tech only MPA has a huge edge over a 'melee' only MPA

TyroneSama
Aug 30, 2016, 02:00 PM
I feel like I'm the only person who thinks TD3 is harder than TD4 in pugs. At least the TD4 map is fairly small, so you can put the MPA on your back and do everything if you have to. In TD3, if people don't spread correctly or aren't aware, expect to be doing a lot of running.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 02:01 PM
I'm not even trying to say force carries the MPA or anything snce variety is important, but a tech only MPA has a huge edge over a 'melee' only MPA

Really, anything that can pretty much speed their way to a tower is gonna have a huge advantage as well, with Ilzonde and Gurren taking the lead. Something that tech users(including Bo) and Br have. Being able to snipe from a distance is also a clear advantage as well. I've killed an exoda and miraculously (with some help, mind you) stopped two other exodas from firing thanks to a combo of ragrants and ilgrants. If I didn't pile in the damage myself, anyone helping wouldn't of been able to finish the job before the laser went off.

Though, this has horribly gone off topic lol


I feel like I'm the only person who thinks TD3 is harder than TD4 in pugs. At least the TD4 map is fairly small, so you can put the MPA on your back and do everything if you have to. In TD3, if people don't spread correctly or aren't aware, expect to be doing a lot of running.

Actually, I agree 100%. The only difference is TD4 has better rewards and is scheduled, so it's bound to come up more often in conversation.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 02:07 PM
I like how you avoid the issues of Force not being needed by calling Te/Hu and Te/Br weaker Fo. I like how you completely forget you have just spouted shit like needing good AIS to even S rank on top of those Forces while the video didn't contain any AIS. And I LOVE how you ignore the video with S rank done by Wired Lance only users that are actually worse off than you would be in melee only block since they have no Fi/Hu's or don't use other Hunter weapons.

And no sorry I don't think you can talk about skewed ideas when I go to Vita blocks with all that melee and people playing on 15 FPS with 300 pixel screens and pull S rank barely while topping the scoreboard, and you are only able to get S rank by being carried by 4 other Forces as you've said.

The nico video is just second half as demonstrated, go look for the first part because honestly niconico douga is awful. And no backpedaling with things like "organized groups". You have applied your requirements to all TD4 runs and those guys aren't playing with just melee, they are playing without AIS.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 02:24 PM
Didn't I just said you proved me wrong about the point though?


You proved me wrong by proving my original point was right? Yeah, you proved that you can win without forces, by showing me a video of weaker forces S ranking. Ok? That shows your original insane idea of a strike only block without Br or Bo being a good idea as something insane.

Yeah...

Also I didn't ignore the video... I even commented on watching it. Hell, I even said I was impressed by what they did, even if it's shaddy for starting at wave 5.

Again, you're...kind of missing the point...where the original subject lays.

And backpedaling I'm pretty sure has to deal with going away from the subject in conversation... Which doesn't apply when I mention organized MPAs. When you take, again, extreme examples, it doesn't apply broadly. As Daku already mentioned, it's huge difference between a bunch of people who have really great gear and have things planned out compared to pugs and even team MPAs.

To this extent, the fact you don't want to go back to the original point because you know you were proven wrong and instead going on about something that you proved right that I even admitted to being wrong about...despite that being me stupidly saying "required" like people would get the idea that I'm stressing the point rather than actually meaning it's impossible without... That's just dodging the matter at hand.

Daku
Aug 30, 2016, 02:27 PM
Except there is a clear cut difference between an organized group doing challeneges and a random MPA of 12 people who may not even know each other. The only reason you don't want me 'backpedaling' into it is because you damn well know this, this is why some players join team like Night Arks and other teams running them consistently, pretty much a guaranteed S ranks imply because all 12 players know what to do, they will know where to be and have the gear to stand against a pack of goldrahda on their own if they need to do so.

A organized MPA is made by someone with the intent to complete a challenge or to complete X as fast as possible to preserve boost time and ensure a S rank, of course a Fo/Te isn't quite as needed, Although a MPA will probably still try to push one so they can fomelgion apprentice into submission so all the AIS can feed it many photon blasters at once.

This is behavior you never see in a pug instance at all, my points of a Pure anything that happens to be a pug will need slack carried and a block that only allowed melee would just be a glorified pug that happens to have only melee but you'd see +0 weapons abound and ungrinded units galore and it'd fail to be a S rank because of this... if you want a melee only MPA you can already make one and I'm sure it'll pass if you pick up well geared players who know their stuff to perform it, I'll just be sticking to what I know will net me my pledias/torana and not conforming to some random person on a forum who calls anyone not playing melee a bad player.

Dat scrub doe, seriously though I'll probably get a better conversation talking to a rock outside.

Starryeyedbunny
Aug 30, 2016, 02:36 PM
A organized MPA is made by someone with the intent to complete a challenge...



Pretty much a point to push...

I don't think people will find a "Force only run" as a challenge. I'm sure there's some videos of that out there, but that's hardly as impressive as a team of 12 wired lance users managing Wave 5 and 6. That's a test of skill, reaction, planning, and smarts. If I wanted to impress people, I sure as heck would do something like that myself. Hell, I've thought about soloing PD on Fo/Te myself, but that's also because it's one of the easier, if not the easiest(with some HP affixes at least lol) to clear solo. Where MPAs will have a safety net of moons if you fail by playing more aggressively, the thing that makes Fo/Te so good for Solo is that it can play aggressively, and well, play as it would in a MPA as well.

I'm not that amazing at the game to say, solo with Hu/Fi not abusing max IW or something.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 02:51 PM
I don't quite get what you are wanting me to prove here. The whole thing began with dumbass opinion that you might as well give up TD4 without Fo/Te and Br/Hu. Then it was added that to S rank TD4 you require 4-5 Fo/Te some WB slave and really good AIS usage. Of course it was proven wrong with a simple video, and later backpedaled by saying that required didn't really mean required. Now you are saying what? That TD is easier by playing the most over powered class? Yes but you don't need if you play with players that aren't completely incompetent.Yes even if you aren't organized you can pull an S rank without any of the requirements mentioned besides maybe people knowing how to pilot AIS. You want me to find melee only run that just happened on a normal block randomly and someone was accidentally recording it?

Tunga
Aug 30, 2016, 02:57 PM
Vantpers you never fail dissapoint.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 03:00 PM
All I ever wanted was a Hu/Fi only block. For people to know that when you gather 12 strong hunter with big swords, long spears, and flexible lances, you are gonna have a really good time.

Tunga
Aug 30, 2016, 03:03 PM
Lol dude stop... Although i can see S rank td4 without forces pretty easily. Just have a bo burn app at the end.

vantpers
Aug 30, 2016, 03:06 PM
Burn isn't even required. You could just delegate it to DS Fighter or Hunter if you really want to, but generally early release there were plenty of S ranks where people just waited for proboscis to pop up. Not to say how many MPAs got dunked first time trying the strategy due to people running out of AIS time or doing just enough damage to trigger dick laser without enough AIS left to actually make it retract without a tower dying.

Daku
Aug 30, 2016, 03:07 PM
Lol dude stop... Although i can see S rank td4 without forces pretty easily. Just have a bo burn app at the end.

Judging from his first post in this thread I don't think he wants a bouncer.

Loveless62
Aug 30, 2016, 04:18 PM
Well, I am glad to say that I have beaten Solo XQ Floors 1-5. This will grant me access to the Derps-Slightly-Less-Than-Average exclusive blocks. I can't wait to see what the MPAs there can accomplish.

IchijinKali
Aug 30, 2016, 06:05 PM
Nothing really. Let us not forget this is for an UQ the thing that you can't fail unless you yourself leave. The only reason the whole 'exclusive' block thing is happening is because of how 'hard' this is going to be compared to what we already deal with.

But considering the difficult stuff we already have to deal with have a time limit, PD, or have us defending something, TD Demise, I doubt it will be as hard as they are making it. The only part that makes them difficult is the human element, i.e. terrible gear or terrible player. Which they are trying to fix with this exclusive block thing but as we all should know it can be completed rather easily.

Someone could cheese it with brhu and then go back to their original class combo. Just keep buying halfdolls til they win. Spend an hour doing the quest. Do it all as a proper class combo with a 12 or 13* weapon that is affixed, +30/40 grind, and max ele with +10/ex8 affixed units.

The criteria doesn't care as long as it was completed it doesn't even ask for an S Rank finish.