[Discussion] PSO2 Without Subclasses?

[Kokurokoki]

Just a discussion topic but I've been curious because I know a lot of players have been dissatisfied with the current state of the game and I'd like to explore their thoughts about the various mechanics of the game.

So one that's been on my mind, Subclass.

How would PSO2 be without subclasses? What do subclasses actually add to the game other than damage? It seems like the main reason people use subclasses are purely to tack on more damage for their main classes. I'm asking because I'm generally curious as to how various players feel about the subclass system from a mechanical standpoint. Would there be more class diversity without subclasses? Would it unbalance and/or break certain other classes that are dependent upon the subclass system to function?

I have my own thoughts regarding subclasses, but I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the game and I'm more of a casual player so I'll keep my thoughts to myself for now. I'm more curious in what other players see in the mechanic and whether or not they like what is currently there. Anyway, what are your thoughts? Discuss.

[Selphea]

Subclasses are OK. Sega just needs to be less stupid about it.

Stupid as in it takes less effort to JA from any position than it is to charge an attack on a weak spot. And yet Fury + JA beats Weak + Stance Charge.

Stupid also as in 5 SP gives you 20% damage from afar with Sharpshooter, essentially rewarding you for doing little more than standing somewhere. However, 10 SP only gives you 15% up close with ZRA.

And finally, stupid as in the SP system in its current state is so difficult to expand without breaking that we haven't gotten a level cap increase in years.

[ZerotakerZX]

My granpa told that PSO2 didn't had subclasses back when. and everybody was happy.

There are some weird class combos, but nobody uses them, since they are not as damaging, but I enojoyd exporing variatns when all those skill trees were new to me.

[Zyrusticae]

Subclasses are OK. Sega just needs to be less stupid about it.

Stupid as in it takes less effort to JA from any position than it is to charge an attack on a weak spot. And yet Fury + JA beats Weak + Stance Charge.

Stupid also as in 5 SP gives you 20% damage from afar with Sharpshooter, essentially rewarding you for doing little more than standing somewhere. However, 10 SP only gives you 15% up close with ZRA.

And finally, stupid as in the SP system in its current state is so difficult to expand without breaking that we haven't gotten a level cap increase in years.
Don't forget stupid bullshit like Fury Stance being useless with techniques, ZRA being specific to shooting (though this one is somewhat understandable considering the class it's attached to, it's still annoyingly restrictive), Break Stance being completely useless on anything at all (Niren Orochi on Magatsu/PD aside), and so on and so on.

Game is chock-full of conditional bullshit that makes no sense just to force people to use certain subclass combinations over others. It's all pure nonsense.

If there's a PSO3, I hope they nip all of this in the bud and replace subclassing entirely with something else. Like a character skill tree instead of a class skill tree that works in addition to the class skill tree. That'd be something.

[wefwq]

The game will actually harder if there's no subclass system due to only able to use skill set from 1 class.
Stat gain from subclass can be easly ignored however because of how small it is.
Having no subclass will expose class weakness more clearly, this can hinder interest of people from playing said class since there's less variation due to lack of option for combination to redeem said class.
Some class have high damage multiplier that active all the time while the other some is don't have it as high and gated with certain condition which is stupid, this way bunch of people with settle with FOTM class and be done with it, while sega throwing OP class buff every couple of months.


Takes me back in the day when free field vol dragon is actually hard and is a real threat, especially during koffie CO run.

Though it depend on how stuff handled, they can cut subclass but it won't make any difference if enemy is nerfed in specific way.

[D-Inferno]

Subclassing was kind of okay back in 2012/13 because sub class weps actually had a use. But even back then, it was just "stack damage".

I feel that the current game would be fine if subclasses along with Gunner, Braver, and Bouncer were deleted, and Vanguard along with perhaps a trap class were added. Katana goes to Hunter, DBs to Fighter, TMG and Bow to Ranger, and JBs to Techter. Perhaps have Stances removed as well so that Fighter doesn't have to hit everything from the front. Hell, axe skill trees altogether; 90% of it is either damage boosts, or stuff that should already be built into your character. Maybe a trap class could be Ranger's counterpart. PSP2 Braver/Vanguard wouldn't be bad either. The current system is shit, and is only the way it is due to dripfeeding of content.

[Eternal255]

Well, considering the game started with no subclasses... I wouldn't want to go back.

As a Fi/Hu, the significant damage boost from Fury stance could be disregarded by modifying enemy stats. However I find Iron Will incredibly useful. Same thing applies with other classes, although with other classes, I use more cross-class weapons. While I do have a 13* sword and partizan that is Fi usable, I hardly ever use anything more than DS or TD.

So yeah, it'd be situational. I don't really see it making much a difference. The game isn't really gonna be any harder or easier (because the enemy stats would be based upon the lack of subclass).

What would make the game better is less classes and more weapon types between them. I would love to use dual blade on a fighter, or hell, even a saber type weapon like PSO had, and weapon-unique abilities.

Personally, I'm fine with the way things are in regards to subclasses. I would change some other mechanics, however.

[yoshiblue]

Coming from PSO and PSØ, I had often though, "Man, it sure would be great if I could still cast Resta, Deband and Shifta without having to be a Force." Then subclasses came along and it allowed me to do that; but also reminded me that I was playing an MMO were max DPS class parties were usually king. PSO2 lacking the need for a tank or pure support.

If PSO2 didn't have subclasses, I would have been fine with the Final Fantasy approach with their cross class skill system. At this point in time the skill rings fills in for that purpose.

[qoxolg]

The problem is not sub classes. The problem is damage buffs in skill trees in general that break the game, in combination with no level scaling toward enemies. Now even every single potential has a damage buff. But then what is the point? A good skill tree would only have functional skills and some stuff we now have on L skill rings. A good skill tree is balanced and prevents people from stacking shit that breaks the balance of the game, to the point where it gets worse and worse with each update.

While EP1 didn't have a very good balance between classes, the balance between players vs enemies was much better. I think PSO2 is currently beyond a point where it will be fixed. The majority of the players want to feel like they are playing a shonen anime game, and thats exactly what they are getting. If you take that away from them, the backlash would be huge. Sega is never gonna take such risk.

Lets all put our hopes in PSO3! :wacko:

[Zysets]

Coming from PSO and PSØ, I had often though, "Man, it sure would be great if I could still cast Resta, Deband and Shifta without having to be a Force." Then subclasses came along and it allowed me to do that; but also reminded me that I was playing an MMO were max DPS class parties were usually king. PSO2 lacking the need for a tank or pure support.

If PSO2 didn't have subclasses, I would have been fine with the Final Fantasy approach with their cross class skill system. At this point in time the skill rings fills in for that purpose.

That's something that bugged me when I started playing PSO2, I was always a HUnewearl in the other games, and being able to use Resta was always nice.

It would be awesome to see a Skill Ring that lets you use Resta or other supportive techs.

[Meteor Weapon]

PSO3 will be out when the majority of us are not gaming anymore though

[Zysets]

PSO3 will be out when the majority of us are not gaming anymore though

Sega did promise PSO2 would run for at least 10 years, so at minimum PSO2 should have 6 years left in it. I'll enjoy it for what it is, not much choice otherwise.

[Zyrusticae]

PSO3 will be out when the majority of us are not gaming anymore though
Speak for yourself. I'll be gaming 'til my grave (and considering my current health trajectories, that's at least 60 years and most likely longer of healthy gaming).

I have no idea why anyone suggests they "grow out" of gaming. It's nonsense. It's a hobby like any other. What're you gonna replace it with, watching movies? Netflix? Reading novels?

Gaming itself will probably change once VR really picks up and nerve gear becomes a thing (if it ever does, which I imagine it will simply because the demand is there), but I'm not ever going to just give it up, and I imagine a significant chunk of the gaming populace feels the same way.

[Totori]

Yep, yep. Won't stop gaming unless I'm physically unable to do so~

[ZerotakerZX]

Speak for yourself. I'll be gaming 'til my grave (and considering my current health trajectories, that's at least 60 years and most likely longer of healthy gaming).

I have no idea why anyone suggests they "grow out" of gaming. It's nonsense. It's a hobby like any other. What're you gonna replace it with, watching movies? Netflix? Reading novels?

Gaming itself will probably change once VR really picks up and nerve gear becomes a thing (if it ever does, which I imagine it will simply because the demand is there), but I'm not ever going to just give it up, and I imagine a significant chunk of the gaming populace feels the same way.
Yeah, growing out is for pussies.

[Meteor Weapon]

Well I'm not judging anyone or anything. It's probably just my personal problem that I'm starting to lose interest in gaming these days. I'm not gonna say "I'd grew out of it," It's more of getting burned out of it.I'm sure there are others who'd feel that way. Just tired, maturing has nothing to do with it. Or is it the same? I don't know. If PSO2 ever keeps me interest I'll still play it, if not then that's Sega's fault for not making it interesting enough for me to keep going.

[Pyrei]

Pso2 without subclasses huh... hmm

this is a general look that doesn't contain every viable combo but here goes:

all classes lose at least 20% extra dmg minimum, as well as the PA/techs from the class that would be subbed, which means less variation and tatics in handling mobs and bosses alike.

hunter (fighter sub): loses brave stance, fi weapons, tech arts JA, chase adv, Satk ups and slayer skills. hunter only really loses dmg and fi weapons here, nothing too game breaking is lost, however dps will be noticeably lower because of the lost fi weapons.

fighter (hunter sub): loses fury stance, JA bonuses, hu weapons, satk ups, iron will, warcry, automate halfline, massive hunter and various other defensive abilities. fighter loses some mobbing ability from lack of hu weapons, will still be known as the dps class however due to things like DS ring, however its survivability will be lowered significantly.

ranger (hunter sub): loses fury stance, JA bonuses, iron will, warcry, automate halfline, massive hunter and various other defensive abilities. Ranger is almost completely unaffected here, it only loses survivability, the ability to ignore knockbacks via massive hunter and the ability to destroy bosses via non-weak point attacks.

gunner (ranger sub): loses weak hit adv, standing snipe, weak bullet, ratk ups, traps and tatics trap. (wow... look at all that dmg lost... 35%+35%+15%+15%, that's not even counting WB) The core of gunner remains the same but the end result dmg will be noticeably lower as well as an increase in the needed team work to pull things off, also mobbing will become more difficult due to lack of launcher.
,
force (techer sub): loses pp convert, pp restorate, light/wind/dark masteries, tatk ups, super treatment, extend assist, territory burst element weak hit. force loses one of its most powerful assets, its pp battery pp convert, also loses a chunk of dmg from elem weak hit and loses masteries of 3 elements, so no more ragrants spam or gimegid, on the bright side its pp battery isn't totally dead thanks to PP convert ring and orbit series weapons.

techer (various subs): techer has a lot of different subs that change the class's play style which are all about equal or are similar, in all of these combos te has a 40%+ dmg multiplier to various aspects of the class that is lost. for te/hu losing hu sub would mean less survivability and more getting knocked around. for te/br it would mean no more tech bow combos, no more kcombat, and no more guren tessen fast traveling. for te/fi it would mean no more chase binds, no more powerful wind/light/dark techs, no more powerful compounds.

braver (hunter sub): loses fury stance, JA bonuses, hu weapons, satk ups, iron will, warcry, automate halfline, massive hunter and various other defensive abilities. Braver loses most of its dmg due to the loss of fury stance and the ability to really specialize in one weapon type (I mean sure you still can do it but less point to doing it) however it regains the ability to use both of its weapons katana and bow equally well.

bouncer (hunter sub): loses fury stance, JA bonuses, hu weapons, satk ups, iron will, warcry, automate halfline, massive hunter and various other defensive abilities. bouncer doesn't lose much here except mobbing dmg and survivability, It could already use both weapons well thanks to the switch strike on jet boots and elem stance.

summoner (fighter sub): loses brave stance, fi weapons, Satk ups, chase adv, and slayer skills. surprisingly summoner is almost untouched here gameplay wise, it loses dmg like everything else sure but really no sub buffs summoner's dmg to the point we'd all like for it to be at due to the fact it can't JA or proc statuses on its own (generally) so summoner gains a leg up over most classes due to the core of its power being right there in its own tree.

[Petunia]

I think just adjusting the strength of Subclass abilities, or changing things to be more balanced across the classes would fix the issue.

[Pyrei]

(while theres 0 chance of this happening) if sega ever did something like this all id expect is a 50% hp cut off all enemies and a 30% dmg reduction from all enemies

[TehCubey]

I wouldn't mind subclasses being removed, assuming balancing of player abilities and enemy damage dealt and received would follow.

I also wouldn't mind skill trees being simplified into a few meaningful choices, like how many modern MMOs do it. But it's Sega we're talking about. Not exactly experts at following modern trends, they like to pretend it's still 2008.

Speaking of which, I don't really have high hopes in them being able to do a good balancing either...

[Zephyrion]

I still think having subclasses isn't an issue, in fact to me it's one of the nice things this game has. I wouldn't mind them being streamlined, but in the end, I think that more than the player being broken, the issue is stll enemies not being up to par.

It's as if Sega is dead scared of putting dangerous and damaging attacks (the number of one shot or close attack in the game is alomost non-existent, whereas there are quite a few of them in a lot of other games, where the player isn't nearly as broken). I mean, seriously, Ultimate Quartz doing 2/3 the damage of normal boosted Crys Draal lv80 is a joke in itself.

Well also the usual : balancing around 1 broken character is alright, balancing around 4 of them is hard, but possible, but balancing about 12-man mpa is just "no".No matter how hard they make that kind of content (and they probably will never do something TOO hard due to player-base discrepancies caused by gear being 90% of your character's power), there would always be a way to cheese through it with good strategies.

So yeah subclasses would surely need to be looked at, but I really think it's one of the lesser problems to look at. Clever tweaking could help balance out subclasses better (plz make Automate Hu-main only) but in the face of all the rest, it would just be a stone thrown in a pond. I like this game the way it is but let's face it, making it on par with other games out there would require a complete make-over, sooo

[silo1991]

in my opinion what the game needs its special abilities for each race , like i read in another post months ago:
humans :should have the main class only passives available so we they can be the versatile as they use to be in PSO1
newman's: they would use techniques no matter the class combination they have
cast: they should have their passive regen and also have immunity poison because they are machines how that status can touch them ( same for lilipa robots)
dewman: they can fill a lot faster than any race the PB bar and also the custom techniques

[Kazzi]

I remember the days before subclasses were added and it honestly wasn't that bad. The thing is the content and difficulty levels have changed a lot since then, and your subclass can actually determine how you even play the game (Te/Br is a good example of the subclass dominance over main class). But this is also SEGA and they honestly don't know how to balance properly, if they did we wouldn't drown in Br.

[Zysets]

in my opinion what the game needs its special abilities for each race , like i read in another post months ago:
humans :should have the main class only passives available so we they can be the versatile as they use to be in PSO1
newman's: they would use techniques no matter the class combination they have
cast: they should have their passive regen and also have immunity poison because they are machines how that status can touch them ( same for lilipa robots)
dewman: they can fill a lot faster than any race the PB bar and also the custom techniques

I do miss being able to use techs despite being a melee class, I've always been a HUnewearl for the most part for the last 15 or so years in this series. However, I'm not too fond of having race specific abilities at this point, I mean race and gender already affect your stats, but nobody seems to care about that. Maybe in 6+ years when we finally move onto the next Phantasy Star.

[HeyItsTHK]

There was a time where no subclasses existed.

Fury Stance was additive.

Rangers and Forces were king.

[Moffen]

I think we have a system where no matter where they try and take it,its screwed lmao.

Should have the skill boards from nova and have 1 stance active ONLY and balance those out so they're balanced and fair.
Played hunter and want to play as a force?
Round of applause,heres a skill that lets you use any sword as force,plus enjoy still being viable!

[HeyItsTHK]

Tbh I haven't really seen a game where a multiclassing system really goes all that well. You just end up with too many lousy combinations in the long run.

[Kokurokoki]

Tbh I haven't really seen a game where a multiclassing system really goes all that well. You just end up with too many lousy combinations in the long run.

I think the main problem is that at its core, the multi-classing mechanic is designed to allow you to play as hybrid classes. Unfortunately, it seems that no devs understand this, and so they develop the classes as individual classes and forget that the classes are eventually supposed to be used in tandem with each other.

This is pretty evident by the fact that we can subclass in PSO2, which ideally from a mechanical perspective should let us play as a hybrid class (spellsword, spellgun, gunsword, etc.) but unfortunately falls flat because then SEGA introduced hybrid classes anyway which essentially defeats the mechanical gimmick for subclassing.

I would prefer Techer, Gunner, Braver, Bouncer, and Fighter be removed and instead have their skills integrated into the Hunter, Ranger, and Force classes respectively. Sometimes when you have less to work with, it actually makes it easier to design stuff. A good example of this is Bloodborne vs Dark Souls. Bloodborne has a streamlined combat system that focuses on only a few aspects. While this theoretically would make combat more linear, it allows it to be refined because the devs have fewer variables to worry about in terms of balancing. Compare this to Dark Souls where there are like 4 different classes of magical spells in addition to melee combat. It becomes evident after playing for awhile that there is a clear imbalance between magic and melee and even within the magic classes themselves.

Sometimes less is more. And when you're trying to balance gameplay mechanics, this is an important philosophy to follow.



Round of applause,heres a skill that lets you use any sword as force,plus enjoy still being viable!

I agree. A thought I've had is in an ability that lets you transfer all of the S-ATK of a melee weapon into T-ATK similar to the Bouncer class's S/T-ATK switch skill but instead as a universal skill that can apply to all classes.

[Zorak000]

Without going too far into it, I feel like subclass system was designed more to have players focus on the main class; I guess they wanted the subclass system to be more of an augmentation on what your main class does than a Dual-Classing system. Classes like Force, Gunner, and Bouncer really feel to me like they were made to be mained, but not so-much subbed.

The only changes I would want to make would be maybe moving Wind/Light/Dark mastery from Techer and onto Force, perhaps condensing the elemental masteries into 1 skill per element or something; then just give Techer Elemental Weak Hit 2 or some other skill to make up for taking those elemental masteries away. The other change would be to just make Break SD Bonus also apply to Break Stance Up; so it can at least kind-of function like Average Stance if you are using a dual blade on a non-breakable

[isCasted]

As it was mentioned many times, the problem really comes down to damage multipliers. If there instead were more active skills (not stances but things like Massive Hunter or Rapid Shoot) and subclass weapons were usable on main, that would favor hybridization much better. Instead, we have a system which favors specialization so much that even hybrid-by-default classes have to get gimped to stay relevant.

[Zorak000]

it's funny because I was just thinking about how to make Guard Stance more relevant, and my thought was to remove Warcry and Warbrave and make them innate to Guard Stance :v

but still, I kind of like the specialization focus for the 12-player side of things. Stuff like Hunewerals, Fomars, and Ramarls were great in the 4-player parties of old, but that was a different game entirely. That said, I was under the impression that Katana+Bow Br/Hu was pretty good even if they have to sacrifice stuff like Attack Advance and maybe some of the rapid boost raw R-atk boosts to cover both actives+stance, Techer is amazing at mobbing and can boss alright as Te/Br with that one bow, and I will say a Bo/Fi weaving a tech or two in between jet boot PAs is pretty alright though I still want to get that short charge ring.

I should probably be more aware of the damage I am dealing when I am playing my other characters/class combos though; I always feel like I am contributing good damage but maybe somehow I am wrong?????????

the stuff like "now you can use swords on force" just feels lazy to me; same with that idea of all-weapon-atk switch skills. If I am going to use swords on force at least do something interesting like Lyndcray does; which is a force/techer/bouncer equippable sword with a fair chunk of T-atk, it has Sacrifice Bite built into it, and the potential on it boosts Tech damage by 25% while Sacrifice Bite's buff is active. otherwise why should I use swords on force when I can just play hunter instead?

I'll say this though, I kind of do wish Techer wasn't just "the other half of Force" and had a few more general-damage skills beyond elemental weak hit; and also maybe had an Element Change skill built in (that does not work with Force's Element Convert though); just to make the idea of a DPS-Support Hu/Te more of an acceptable thing

[Eternal255]

The problem is not sub classes. The problem is damage buffs in skill trees in general that break the game, in combination with no level scaling toward enemies. Now even every single potential has a damage buff. But then what is the point? A good skill tree would only have functional skills and some stuff we now have on L skill rings. A good skill tree is balanced and prevents people from stacking shit that breaks the balance of the game, to the point where it gets worse and worse with each update.

I think this is the biggest problem with the game right here. Too much +damage which makes raw attack virtually useless. I'm still using a double cannon (not complaining though since the lavis series are my favorite weapons from PSO) because the 15% damage boost outweighs all other potentials, in my opinion. Would be nice if they reworked the skill system to abandon +damage skills and replaced them with useful skills or even new abilities in the skill trees, etc. Perhaps giving double cannon the ability to shoot out four photon-beams around the character for a potential, eh? It would add more variety to weapons and more reason to use more weapons instead of just "this is the strongest thing available right now".

It would be awesome if they re-did the entire skill tree at some point, removing +damage skills and balancing the game by adjusting enemy stats. It's not too much to ask for either, as many other games out there have done just that.

[Moffen]

I think stances are honestly the biggest issue actually.

Every problem comes down to stances and too many dmg buffs.
Make stances on single classes better but completely remove subclass stances and things would likely be a bit more balanced out.

[Keilyn]

I don't think the damage is the problem.
Its the nature of the game.

This game was designed so that eventually a single person can annihilate everything. Its only about groups in MPAs in order for weak people to combine with stronger ones to get by those 12 man boss battles. However, what keeps people in this game outside of the fashion is the fact that they can solo every blasted map.

Take that away from them and they might as well forget about this game and enter the alternative. A Guild Based MMORPG where everyone is on VoIP and playing together all the time, and if you don't have a group... you can't do endgame content, and if you do have a group and mess up... everyone dies!

Yes.
People complain about how "Easy" things become....
..and forget how much harder things are for the player who is leveling in SH and isn't fully geared yet by comparison.

And yes...
all the same...
Take that away from them and there is no real reason to play, as this is what most in the community expect.

[isCasted]

I think stances are honestly the biggest issue actually.

Every problem comes down to stances and too many dmg buffs.
Make stances on single classes better but completely remove subclass stances and things would likely be a bit more balanced out.

Stances are extremely pointless and annoying. Not only they are merely damage multipliers by most part, the game design also makes it best to specialize in one instead of both and actually, you know, switching between them.

The only stances that actually make sense are Hunter's ones, but their execution is awful. Fighter's stances are an annoying damage randomizer. Braver's stances focus on the enemy and require little to no strategic approach. Bouncer stances... Just what the fuck, they aren't even opposite and, unlike with Braver, the game straight up admits that you need a specific stance for a specific Bouncer's weapon.

Oh, and also they take away extra subpalette slot. If you take one, you always have it active anyway, so having a button is not necessary. If you take two, you are never in a situation when you need neither, so 1 button would be enough.

Stances are simply not needed in this game. They give little to no impact on your playstyle while annoying you with random conditions and sucking up skill points. Fuck them.


I don't think the damage is the problem...
Damage itself isn't the problem. The problem is with focus on semi-unconditional damage multipliers instead of active skills, bonuses that actually require player's involvement and adjustments to other mechanics like speed or PP consumption. Skill trees are supposed to enhance your playstyle as you invest skill points, and raw damage multipliers don't do that (in some cases, it's quite the opposite even). Simply put, it's boring.

[FantasyHeaven]

They killed off subclasses a while ago by adding main class skills and promoting main class weapons with damage boosts.
There's no point in playing anything even mildly interesting like Fi/Br with all possible boosts on at the same time, because unkillable br/hu will just roll all over your damage with 0.1 times the effort. What the fuck even is fury stance? I know when I started playing and couldn't max it I was a little scared of the additional damage received it has. Now I don't even acknowledge its existence. And why on earth does the damage taken decrease as you level fury stance?
Other stuff in the hunter tree like burn guard and pretty good just make me laugh. Remnants from another time that sega completely forgot about.
Basically the only class that seems to have any subclass variation anymore is Te. Every other class has 1 usable combo and a few more that are objectively worse.
Looking forward to sega killing Te too.

[vantpers]

I am kinda surprised someone other than me liked pre weapon boost times. It was kinda awful cause it nerfed combos that didn't deserve it at all like all class daggers by anyone subbing Fighter on Magatsu. Sega basically fucked up giving Fighter two big main class bonuses that give you 1.15 x 1.2 damage and then crazy heart that makes Limit Break effectively twice what it already is. Currently there is way fewer reasons to sub /Fi to anything that there was to sub /Hu during the Fighter main craze.

[Zorak000]

yeah they still haven't completely shed PSO's original concept as of "A Diablo clone, but in Space*", where everybody is some form of DPS class; at most you would have Tanky-DPS, Support DPS, and Glass Cannon Hyper-DPS.

on the subject of Stances, yeah they really should look them all over and compare the Opportunity Costs of not using a different class or stance. I could almost say they should be balanced like:

Break > Weak = Wise > Elemental > Brave = Fury > Average

Break: Make Break SD Bonus work so that it is on par with Average Stance when not attacking breakables. Throw Dual Blade Bouncers a bone here SEGA.
Guard: Give it more Main Class Only stuff like Guard Stance Advance, enough to put it somewhere around Weak and Wise stances if you are playing well. also make it resist ALL DAMAGE and not just striking damage

Fury's downside is taking more striking damage, but you almost remove that penalty at rank 10, and a good player might not be getting hit much at all, so it should be better than Average Stance, but that's about it. Break is only good at breaking stuff, so it should be REALLY REALLY good at it to compensate for there not always being breakables around. Wise and Weak being on par with each other seems about right to me I guess, there isnt always a good weak point to pick out and you can't always get behind the enemy. Elemental requires you to gear yourself up right or just use Jet Boots, but when you are hitting elemental weaknesses you should be rewarded a bit for having the right gear around. Average stance is for when you cannot be bothered to do anything else.

I'd say the rest of the classes would need something on-par with a stance with a skill that adds one layer of depth to it all

Braver: move Stance Charge off of stances and into it's own skill. Move Attack Advance... to Summoner?
Braver's weapons are built around charging mechanics, so I guess it's fine for it to focus on that while offering it to other classes. Attack Advance feels like a really weird skill on Braver Main outside of a maxed-out Rapid Shooting build

Bouncer: buff Shifta Air a bit but not as strong as Braver Charge, also maybe have a Personal Long Time Assist skill like Fighter has a Personal Extend Assist skill
Bouncer has access to techs, and the current tree kinda looks like Shifta Air is Bouncer's counterpart to Stance Charge, just a bit weaker since once you have shifta on you, you just need to stay in the air for it to work.

Hunter: Remove JA Boost 1+2, Trade Fury combo to Fighter for Tech Arts JA
JA Boost is a boring skill, you should be wanting to do Just Attacks enough already, Tech Arts JA helps keep stuff fresh enough I'd say

Fighter: Move Chase Advance/Plus to Techer, trade Tech Arts JA to Hunter for Fury Combo (but without the Fury Stance requirement of course) and maybe force it into being just 5SP for +5% per combo (10% max)
FuryFighter Combo would fit more in-line with Fighter's "all-in" offensive style.

Techer: Move Wind/Light/Dark mastery to Force. Remove Elemental Weak Hit since Bouncer is kinda already doing that, I guess replace it with Chase Advance Plus since you got stuff like Wand Element and Zanverse at your disposal.
Techer should be the "I want to supply some off-support with my main class" subclass, but it should still provide a passive damage bonus on par or slightly stronger than Average Stance, as a single Techer main in the MPA can possibly do the support job for you already. Chase Advance Plus would fit that bill pretty well I think, and fits in with Techer's strong mobbing but weak bossing theme

Force: Gets the Wind/Light/Dark masteries from Techer; All Elemental masteries only need 10 skill points per element to compensate. Remove Tech Charge Advance as that is something Braver would be providing. Photon Flare seems kinda like a weaker Limit Break but without as big of a HP penalty, so it probably should get cut for some kind of other active skill.
Force is the Best At Tech Damage class, so as a subclass I'd say it should have something weaker than Average Stance while allowing you to have some decent Offensive Techs via the Elemental Masteries. They can't all be winners folks.

Gunner: Remove Zero Range Advance, buff Perfect Keeper and High Time.
Perfect Keeper and Arial Advance are kinda oddly decent if you can keep something in midair; Perfect Keeper would be on par with Fury stance while Arial Advance can be the Stance Charge / Fury Combo. Chain Trigger more than makes up for Arial Advance not really working on most bosses I'd say

Ranger: I have no idea what to do here
Weak Stance would basically cover Weak Hit Advance like how I would remove Elemental Weak Hit from Techer since Elemental Stance covers that, Standing Snipe doesn't really work all too well on non-ranger/gunner weapons, Sharp Shooter would remain a Main Class Skill, First Hit is dumb, I got no idea here. like Techer's buffing skills, another ranger in the MPA could handle Weak Bullet for the most part so I can't really just say that WB could be it.

Summoner: gets Attack Advance from braver, maybe tune-down some of the pet basic attack modifiers a tiny bit.
All-attack bonus is literally Average Stance except not a stance at all and slightly weaker than it. Giving Summoner Attack Advance would give it a better gimmick to make it appeal to sub on other classes I guess?


I don't really want to touch main-class skills but let's just assume everybody has a decent main-class skill via actives or something cool. this post is all about subclassing anyway.
this would break up a bunch of stuff they already have in place via skill-rings, like Launcher Non-weak Bonus and Wand Element Change, so really this was probably just a huge waste of time for me this afternoon!

* it was going to be it's own IP until Sakai said there should still be a dragon and fantasy stuff; and they remembered the old Phantasy Star IP they weren't doing anything with at the time so they just plugged that in.

[vantpers]

I almost got cancer from some things that like that Fighter Fury Combo that would be a gigantic pain in the ass for knuckle.

Stances like Break and Elemental are retarded and shouldn't be buffed, but rather removed. Elemental just forces you to have more weapons and doesn't introduce anything interesting to the gameplay. Break stance is too boss specific and doesn't really force player to work for their damage, rather it just gives you damage randomly depending on how Sega designed the boss. Being extremely good at one thing and bad at one is pretty bad especially if it's being good at one EQ and bad at another since it just promotes class switching.

[Keilyn]

The funny thing about Braver is that there are three games I play which all have a class which has a Katana + Bow Combination... all three of them are similar. Built for speed attacks, precision, and power...with similarities...

1) PSO-2: Unbalanced Class in which simply running Katana Escape grants enough time to wipe out most bosses when they enter their worse states. Equal Share into Bow and Katana aren't as effective, and a pair of stances....

2) Gex-D: Players starting as scouts upon their first kill gets the ability to double the range and speed on their bow. Between their swords and bows in their second class they get invulnerability at almost every attack animation and they get a rage mode that increases their movement speed, while increasing attack speed and both... Raw Attack Damage and Damage Multipliers for each hit against an enemy, but after 20 seconds, all their skills go on a 10 second cooldown.

3) Black Desert Online: Musa and Muehwa. These two classes are Samurai Classes. The two walk around with Bows and Katanas. The Male class is great at Area Attacks with Katanas and extreme mobbing. The female counters the male by being amazing at single-target damage. The two classes have class mechanics that makes everyone observing you eventually admire the bs to the nth degree... Especially when basic attacks combo with speed for invulnerability and interrupting skill execution from other players cause flamewars.

[Altiea]

If they actually made Skill Board from Nova a thing, we wouldn't even need Subclasses. Of course, that would require changing how Skills work entirely.

Based on my experience with PSNova, this should actually how multi-classing should have been handled in the first place. But I'm not really sure how that would affect game balance.

[Cypher_9]

The most I will say is that the devs should have thought about hybrids way before the game took off the way it had. Even by then within the release of subclasses a dev should have considered people would want to be xx/xx combination.

Instead, we get Fi/Hu - Br/Hu - Hu/Hu - Ra/Hu - Gu/Hu - Su/Hu - Bo/Hu - Te/Hu

Not much variety as you see :^)
EVERYTHING IS SUBBED WITH HUNTER

All joking aside - this game did what I feared (not really just known) what it would do. Only make {Fi/Hu - Fo/Te - Te/Br - Br/Hu - Gu/Ra - Ra/Gu - Ra/Hu - Te/Ra - Fi/Br - Fo/Br - Ra/Br - Bo/Hu (I didn't play summoner so I don't know its combination but if i was to assume - Su/Hu - Su/Fo? - Su/Br? - Su/Te?} a possible (correct me if i am wrong) 16 viable combinations out of the 81 to be used effectively with some having a bit more tact than others. However, everywhere I go all I see is Br's and Fi's - it's a miracle to even see an RA or FO. I remember Fighter weren't so popular and everyone hated its weakness - now bandwagon.

Anyway, game w/o it's subclassing would defeat its emulation toward PSO ver.1 since classes had the ability to use things other classes used natively. However, the execution of it fell short of a few to several unique combinations that had been shadowed and can provide alternative methods to subduing mobs (Like Protranser :D) in its way.

[Kokurokoki]

After thinking about it some more, I feel like PSO2 should have made their skill trees focus on the Photon Arts, instead of on nothing but damage multipliers.

It would be far more mechanically interesting to be able to spend skill points to customize your PAs and techs, instead of having to RNG them in the garbage crafting system. For example, the Hunter's Sonic Arrow could be customized to have a wider hitbox, while also pulling enemies in or something. Or imagine firing off a Foie that turns into a Gifoie when it hits an enemy or something.

[Altiea]

After thinking about it some more, I feel like PSO2 should have made their skill trees focus on the Photon Arts, instead of on nothing but damage multipliers.

It would be far more mechanically interesting to be able to spend skill points to customize your PAs and techs, instead of having to RNG them in the garbage crafting system. For example, the Hunter's Sonic Arrow could be customized to have a wider hitbox, while also pulling enemies in or something. Or imagine firing off a Foie that turns into a Gifoie when it hits an enemy or something.

Unfortunately, this would probably require revising how Arts and Techniques are tied to the player, and how they are used with different classes.

[Keilyn]

Underneath the hood...
PSO-2 has graphics and fashion, but at the very end of the day
its just another beat 'em up game with a multiplier-based "skill system"

My solution to the people (including myself) who post in threads like this, is to simply be diversified in your gaming. If PSO-2 is not your ONLY game, or main-game, it means one can take advantage of what different games offer, instead of spending so much time...posting about what is wrong with the game... :)

[Altiea]

Underneath the hood...
PSO-2 has graphics and fashion, but at the very end of the day
its just another beat 'em up game with a multiplier-based "skill system"

My solution to the people (including myself) who post in threads like this, is to simply be diversified in your gaming. If PSO-2 is not your ONLY game, or main-game, it means one can take advantage of what different games offer, instead of spending so much time...posting about what is wrong with the game... :)

I suppose we complain because we care. We care about PSO2 enough that we want to imagine what could possibly be done to make it a better game. If we didn't care, we probably would have quit a long time ago.

Just my conjecture on it, though. Don't hold me to that. For all I know, someone might just complain because they want to complain.

[Keilyn]

I suppose we complain because we care. We care about PSO2 enough that we want to imagine what could possibly be done to make it a better game. If we didn't care, we probably would have quit a long time ago.

Just my conjecture on it, though. Don't hold me to that. For all I know, someone might just complain because they want to complain.

Like a professor told me.
"People complain out of one of two reasons:

1) People are DEPENDENT and don't care.
2) People are not DEPENDENT and do care."

What I find here is that more people are dependent on PSO-2 for their primary source of gaming entertainment. The dependent don't care at-large about the game. They care about the game being tailored to suit their personal needs and desires and nothing more. In fact, dependency is what causes so many opinions and politics to be generated...

My Niece is under 10 years of age.
I am 36 years old.

Both of us have beaten all 10 blocks of Heaven and Hell.
She did so as Fo/Te
I did so as Fi/Hu and Fi/Te.

We both love the fashion and character design the game has to offer.
However, we both have the same problem with the game....

When my niece and I chose to play together, we annihilated everything the game could throw at us. The game was far too easy to the point we both did not have any fun since everything just died from being sneezed on. It didn't make us happy. It made us sad.

We both agreed that in order to win at PSO-2,
Its not about pure politics or opinion..
Its about having the time to get all your weapons and gear, and simply use them.

Winning in this game means having a one-track mind to your class combination, its exploits and just going for broke.
There is no major strategy to winning,
There is no need to overthink anything....

She has 60 - 80 hours a week to play video games.
If I have no commitments, I have 30 hours a week to play games.

She felt alone and knew that whining, bitching, and complaining would go on deaf ears to SEGA. Rather than waste her time, she did the smart thing. She decided to look for a game where she could make friends and play with them frequently without their presence sacrificing any measurable worth of difficulty.

After a while,
She found the game she was looking for,
and now she is surrounded by people whom she trusts to play together..

The road was not easy for her.
She had to deal with the usual garbage found in all online games,
but she was brave enough to try.

She also had me by her side to help and finally, we can play a game together without having any regrets!
Periodically she logs into PSO-2 for old times sake, but now that she has multiple games she plays so she logs in to the game
her heart feels like being in at the time...

[Altiea]

Like a professor told me.
"People complain out of one of two reasons:

1) People are DEPENDENT and don't care.
2) People are not DEPENDENT and do care."

What I find here is that more people are dependent on PSO-2 for their primary source of gaming entertainment. The dependent don't care at-large about the game. They care about the game being tailored to suit their personal needs and desires and nothing more. In fact, dependency is what causes so many opinions and politics to be generated...

My Niece is under 10 years of age.
I am 36 years old.

Both of us have beaten all 10 blocks of Heaven and Hell.
She did so as Fo/Te
I did so as Fi/Hu and Fi/Te.

We both love the fashion and character design the game has to offer.
However, we both have the same problem with the game....

When my niece and I chose to play together, we annihilated everything the game could throw at us. The game was far too easy to the point we both did not have any fun since everything just died from being sneezed on. It didn't make us happy. It made us sad.

We both agreed that in order to win at PSO-2,
Its not about pure politics or opinion..
Its about having the time to get all your weapons and gear, and simply use them.

Winning in this game means having a one-track mind to your class combination, its exploits and just going for broke.
There is no major strategy to winning,
There is no need to overthink anything....

She has 60 - 80 hours a week to play video games.
If I have no commitments, I have 30 hours a week to play games.

She felt alone and knew that whining, bitching, and complaining would go on deaf ears to SEGA. Rather than waste her time, she did the smart thing. She decided to look for a game where she could make friends and play with them frequently without their presence sacrificing any measurable worth of difficulty.

After a while,
She found the game she was looking for,
and now she is surrounded by people whom she trusts to play together..

The road was not easy for her.
She had to deal with the usual garbage found in all online games,
but she was brave enough to try.

She also had me by her side to help and finally, we can play a game together without having any regrets!
Periodically she logs into PSO-2 for old times sake, but now that she has multiple games she plays so she logs in to the game
her heart feels like being in at the time...

Well... Uh... Good for her, I guess?

It's not like we don't play other games. We just don't talk about them. That's usually how a dedicated forum works and stuff. Like, I wouldn't be talking about how I just beat Odin Sphere or how I'm going to start Pokemon Sun on a Phantasy Star forum except in Off-Topic.

[Sakarisei]

I don't think the main issue is the subclass system. The main issue of PSO2 is the huge damage rate that users can obtain ingame, especially if they use optimal builds. Furthermore, some users in this post are right. HU is for fair the best class as a sub ingame, excepting for FO and, iirc, SU. But any class generally use that class as the most optimal subclass because the OPed Fury Stance + many survival skills like Iron Will + Never Give Up and/or Automate Halfline.

Even if this game deleted the subclass system, the issue of the game is still the same. Remember in Ep1 when RAs with WB were able to deal with anyone because the huge damage of that class. That thing cause that killing bosses is considered as an usual thing ingame, for non-talking that the main proof that SEGA is supporting solo players via the solo XQs or even the expert blocks, making playing alone much more important than playing with the others, or at least imo ofc...

[HeyItsTHK]

Hunter is worthless for Summoners btw. It's Br, FI and maybe Gu