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View Full Version : Idea: 3 "deaths" and fail free field?



Starryeyedbunny
Nov 10, 2016, 07:32 PM
Before jumping to any responses...hear me out.

There's some issues with the game's difficulty. Personally, I don't think the game needs to necessarily PLAY harder with bosses that are harder to dodge (though really need bosses that are harder to keep attacking, if I may be honest...).

One of these issues is we can usually just keep jumping back to campship over and over and over if we die. Yeah, we lose a rank, big whoop. But there's also that giant leap of difficulty where, excluding Kuron and Subdue Train, if you die to a boss, that's it. It's a huge huge whiplash. This is really for solo but, still.

My idea, put simply: Make it so, during the whole quest run of a free field and similar quests, you can only campship three times, no matter the area. Hell, maybe even give just some autorevive at this point(that just restarts you at the boss portal in case of the boss), or an option to revive in a party. I do believe this needs to come alongside a reduction of moons to 2 or 3, but generally speaking, it would at least, without making the game too difficult, give some sense of difficulty. It would also reduce the sudden shift that comes from fighting a boss solo.

Along side that, no campship returns during EQs. We have 12x5 moons right now, there's no reason that should of ever been an option. Moments like clone in PD and the swords in Loser are wasted by this option even existing.

And please, no one word replies of "No." k thx. At least show you gave it some thought before disagreeing.

And yes, this came from thinking about how Monster Hunter handles failing a quest in a group.

Altiea
Nov 10, 2016, 09:52 PM
And yes, this came from thinking about how Monster Hunter handles failing a quest in a group.

Is there an item that gives us one extra cart revive? Shameless MHX reference

ArcaneTechs
Nov 10, 2016, 10:07 PM
prob is fields are too easy, most eqs outside stuff like PD are too easy. reducing moons doesnt really do much let alone not returning to camp (which if your doing that instead of letting aomeone revive you then idk)

i dont really know how to respond to this, its something that will never happen, +1

Kondibon
Nov 10, 2016, 10:23 PM
Like Kril said, most of the game is too easy for this to make much of a difference either. That said I'd rather they make ranking matter for more quests (And maybe make the ranking penalty from deaths a bit harsher). It's too much of a non-mechanic for 90% of the game.

ZerotakerZX
Nov 11, 2016, 02:10 AM
maybe 5 deaths, since we have 5 moon atomizers. but the today's stream is: dont punish players too much for their fails, since its a punishment on its own terms. There is no need to discourage player and make him want to ragequit.

sol_trigger
Nov 11, 2016, 04:43 AM
Before jumping to any responses...hear me out.

There's some issues with the game's difficulty. Personally, I don't think the game needs to necessarily PLAY harder with bosses that are harder to dodge (though really need bosses that are harder to keep attacking, if I may be honest...).

One of these issues is we can usually just keep jumping back to campship over and over and over if we die. Yeah, we lose a rank, big whoop. But there's also that giant leap of difficulty where, excluding Kuron and Subdue Train, if you die to a boss, that's it. It's a huge huge whiplash. This is really for solo but, still.

My idea, put simply: Make it so, during the whole quest run of a free field and similar quests, you can only campship three times, no matter the area. Hell, maybe even give just some autorevive at this point(that just restarts you at the boss portal in case of the boss), or an option to revive in a party. I do believe this needs to come alongside a reduction of moons to 2 or 3, but generally speaking, it would at least, without making the game too difficult, give some sense of difficulty. It would also reduce the sudden shift that comes from fighting a boss solo.

Along side that, no campship returns during EQs. We have 12x5 moons right now, there's no reason that should of ever been an option. Moments like clone in PD and the swords in Loser are wasted by this option even existing.

And please, no one word replies of "No." k thx. At least show you gave it some thought before disagreeing.

And yes, this came from thinking about how Monster Hunter handles failing a quest in a group.


Mr. rotten elitist pls go play Dark souls or something else, PSO2 is fine the way it is, im still using 10 stars items because i don't have time to hardcore play the game so not all free fields are easy to me, GTFO with your stupid idea.

isCasted
Nov 11, 2016, 04:57 AM
As "brutally" easy as the game is, this is still RNG-based content without any kind of balance (what codes or enemies you get, how long the map is, what utility items drop in the field - the game doesn't make sure to keep these factors in line so different playthroughs of each quest were fair between each other). The procedural generation in this game is so bad, so really bad that you can never be sure you can succeed with your objectives (getting A/S-rank, finding certain enemies etc). There are plenty of games that rely on procedural generation, but many of them actually put some sort of restrictions onto it so it's varied but remains fair.

Death in regular quests, as rare for endgamers as it is, is still heavily affected by RNG. The game should have more preset single-party quests like Train Ghidoran Suppression which can have everything you need, while Free Fields would be multiparty farming areas. You shouldn't be able to return to Campship (neither by dying nor through Telepipe) during single-party quests like that if you want to actually clear them; then your rank should be based on time (different requirements for solo and party clears would be needed). As for free fields, they shouldn't rank you at all.

vantpers
Nov 11, 2016, 10:01 AM
Yes great idea let's make a difficulty increase that targets the casual players that never wanted it while not affecting hardcore ones in any way. What's the next great idea? Increase gearing up difficulty and experience needed to level up to make this game more hardcore?

While the game should keep you from coming back to the campship in any serious EQ and limit the number of moons, there is not point in hitting inexperienced players with unnecessary penalties for dying. The whole thing with not wanting harder bosses sounds like a bad player wanting to make it harder on newbies for some reason. If Sega increases difficulty it should aim at the most experienced players or everyone equally, hopefully while also not penalizing weaker players too much in gear department since that would needlessly make the divide between playerbase greater. Solo XQ stages 6-10 is a pretty good example where you're not losing much even if you can't solo it.

Pyrei
Nov 11, 2016, 11:28 AM
I'd say before saying something like this, go make a new char (or play an alt) lv it up to lv 50/lv30 sub and walk through EVERY SH free field with a 7* +0 NT weapon with 25 wind element or less and 3 un-grinded and un-affixed sub units.

this gives you a peek at the life of a new player (altho for skilled players this wont matter much) new players have this game as hard as it is, a lot quit at SH because the game stops babying you at SH (and its also true that you can be carried thru SH but most ppl don't know anyone to help carry them thru SH)

that said, the difficulty of the basic parts of the game like free fields and arks quests are fine as is,(hell might be too hard if angel or something spawns when you don't want to deal with him or a infected rare boss spawns on field and keeps summoning mobs so much that you can hardly breathe, or running into super bal dominus at boss room that nukes you with infection blasts while he's lying on the deck, Or worse yet finding odin in a SH pworld solo...) howerver... I wouldn't mind some extra penalty for returning to campship after deaths only, as in full healing the boss that's in the boss room and applying/adding power to an infection core on it for free fields, for EQs tho id only make the change that ALL eqs (some don't have this these days) have an automatic rank drop on returning to campship after deaths mid run. but in exchange for these, auto quest fail upon death in last area on free fields would be removed and being dead but on field upon boss death will not lower rank in EQs.

Zysets
Nov 11, 2016, 11:51 AM
Last time I died more than once in a Free Field was probably sometime during Episodes 1 or 2. I'm well geared enough now that dying in a Free Field is like winning the lottery. All this does is hurt newer players. Sure, the game is easy now, but if you're a new player with no experience in the game, or hell, the series at all, it's just fine.

I mean a new player playing a Melee class won't have to chase after Vol Dragon's tail crystal just to stun it for a brief moment to get more damage in (ah the memories), but it's still not a cake walk. In january, two friends of mine started playing the game, and I realized what a difference it made being a fresh player and having played since launch. One friend got to 75/75, but they still died fairly often in SH mode, because they still had to affix their units and weapons, and fully grind them. They weren't completely ready yet.

Starryeyedbunny
Nov 11, 2016, 03:23 PM
prob is fields are too easy, most eqs outside stuff like PD are too easy. reducing moons doesnt really do much let alone not returning to camp (which if your doing that instead of letting aomeone revive you then idk)

i dont really know how to respond to this, its something that will never happen, +1

It's less "OMG MAKE THIS DARK SOULS" and more of "Give some value to what the player is doing". Just letting everyone zerg rush endlessly doesn't do anything, and hell, people still seem fine with doing XQs and stuff. And yes, this is a rebuttal to all those who cry "STOP IT HURT NUBS", XQs already sorta do this... What is hurting everyone is the current system.


maybe 5 deaths, since we have 5 moon atomizers. but the today's stream is: dont punish players too much for their fails, since its a punishment on its own terms. There is no need to discourage player and make him want to ragequit.

Him?

And no, it's not punishment. It's not even a slap on the wrist. Unless you happen to go "Ah! My ego" every time you die.


Mr. rotten elitist pls go play Dark souls or something else, PSO2 is fine the way it is, im still using 10 stars items because i don't have time to hardcore play the game so not all free fields are easy to me, GTFO with your stupid idea.

Uh...let me try this insult thing? Uh, get out of my simple game that doesn't want to hurt feelings? Go play Kirby's Epic Yarn?

Did I do this right? Sorry?




While the game should keep you from coming back to the campship in any serious EQ and limit the number of moons, there is not point in hitting inexperienced players with unnecessary penalties for dying.

And this is exactly where your point fails.

I shouldn't need to explain this, but unnecessary penalities? What's next, no more deaths? Loser just slaps you across the face and tells you "no, stop that!"


Default
I'd say before saying something like this, go make a new char (or play an alt) lv it up to lv 50/lv30 sub and walk through EVERY SH free field with a 7* +0 NT weapon with 25 wind element or less and 3 un-grinded and un-affixed sub units.

this gives you a peek at the life of a new player (altho for skilled players this wont matter much) new players have this game as hard as it is, a lot quit at SH because the game stops babying you at SH (and its also true that you can be carried thru SH but most ppl don't know anyone to help carry them thru SH)

Just did. And that's point I realized that having a single life on bosses is too much while having too much freedom on free fields is too little. Once everyone hits XH they're confused and just flail about and wonder why they do bad...

Also let me stop you here... Maybe the issue is also that N-VH are too easy now? They need to give a proper difficulty increase. Nothing radical, but all these weapon barriers and what not just hurts them in the long run. The game's not hard, but they make it so they can't adapt. And that's a huge issue.



All this does is hurt newer players. Sure, the game is easy now, but if you're a new player with no experience in the game, or hell, the series at all, it's just fine.

UH...what...

Maybe they should, IDK, experience some form of failure for doing bad?

Am I insane?

<_>

Edit: Also excuse more insanity, but they did also add easy to get 13*s that don't even require boss battles, right? And shouldn't people who are not as good party up so it's easier? It is an MMO...

Zysets
Nov 11, 2016, 03:57 PM
UH...what...

Maybe they should, IDK, experience some form of failure for doing bad?

The rest of my post said that some bosses can kill you easily if you're not properly geared. I even mentioned how I was able to convince some friends to try the game out, but because they hadn't properly affixed their Units and weps, and because they weren't up to par, Vol Dragon kicked their ass a number of times. People still get punished for doing bad or having bad gear. Sure, it's nothing like it was back during launch, but capping Free Field deaths kind of defeats the purpose of "Free" Field. I'd imagine that's more fitting in ARKS quests where you have specific goals to accomplish. The point of Free Fields is just doing as you like in the area.

Also, not really on topic, but it's not an MMO, Sega has never called any online Phantasy Star an MMO, just an online action RPG. I figure to be an MMO, they would have to actually make it "Massively" multiplayer, not cap it off at 12 people max. The original PSO and PSU was basically Diablo in space, not an MMO, I guess that still applies with PSO2.

Vatallus
Nov 11, 2016, 04:11 PM
I don't see any harm in this since it won't affect most people.

qoxolg
Nov 11, 2016, 04:12 PM
I'd say, we need more of the opposite. Give quests some checkpoints, infinite lives, but make it much harder. Make boss fights and encounters longer and put maybe some objectives and mechanics in it, that aren't OMFGWTFBBQ max damage output. Give enemy groups attack formations, make healing harder, objectives during boss fights where you have to deactivate shields in a certain way, or protect a crystal during the boss fight that gets attacked by waves of trash mobs, that increase in size as the boss loses health... you know.. like a game?

to make it more interesting:
- balance player vs enemy so that no one can outlevel the enemies beyond a certain point.
- cut the whole Rush Rush Rush mentality for everything except time attacks. Make an interesting scoring system for killing enemies with style and make dying reset the score. Make drop rates decent and let the score have a large influence on drop rates.
- clearing a quest with more players cuts the rates a bit.

AlphaBlob
Nov 11, 2016, 06:21 PM
If I were to re-do the death/moon system, this is what I would do.

1- Dying decreases the drop/exp/meseta rate progressively
2- Dying will instantly drop your score to an A
3- halfdoll and scapedoll wont decrease the rate (Gotta be realistic, Sega would most likely do this)
4- It will take 5 seconds for you to get revived

vantpers
Nov 11, 2016, 06:22 PM
I
And this is exactly where your point fails.

I shouldn't need to explain this, but unnecessary penalities? What's next, no more deaths? Loser just slaps you across the face and tells you "no, stop that!"

Having some newbie have to restart the free field on failure is pretty much unnecessary cause it only causes newbies to cry while not providing challenge to veteran players. Similarly failing XQs eats your passes. It has the potential to make players mad but doesn't really make anything more satisfying so it's pretty unnecessary.

We're playing a game with a huge playerbase of casuals. Hardcore players shouldn't beg Sega for retarded types of challenges that don't really improve the game mechanically or will make it harder only for casuals. Rather the challenges should make it possible for both types to co-exist, which means no hard to get loot or gigantic rewards gated behind skill level. I just want to have fun doing something challenging not have fun feeling superior because game rewards my huge skill. I don't want newbies to experience big penalties because that would be killing one of the pillars making the game happen, since hardcore players can't do it alone.

One example would be TD1 design versus TD4 design. TD1 was easier than TD4 but with uncapped number of runs. Basically players would get rewarded for being good massively. The quest itself wasn't really hard though unless you precisely wanted to speed run. All it did was make players whine endlessly about MPAs even more than nowadays. TD4 was actually harder by design than TD1 but besides getting the rather minor bonuses for S rank you wouldn't really feel it if you barely completed it versus 2 very fast runs. It's more casual friendly while veteran players can still try to speedrun it the same as TD1 albeit without rewards besides e-peen.

Eternal255
Nov 11, 2016, 06:24 PM
Couple points that I'm sure have been made

1) I feel this kind of thread is pointless (not to sound like a dick or anything). Posting about it here isn't going to make a difference. You can try to make a request to Sega in their feedback form, wherever that was.
2) Free fields used to be somewhat difficult back in the day, but the game has moved passed that, and it's really not the purpose of this game anymore. Free fields are basically useless.

AlphaBlob
Nov 11, 2016, 06:38 PM
1) I feel this kind of thread is pointless (not to sound like a dick or anything). Posting about it here isn't going to make a difference. You can try to make a request to Sega in their feedback form, wherever that was.
That's true, but it's still interesting to discuss ideas like that, because maybe some people will end up giving those feedback to Sega, or it could give inspire someone for their own project.

ArcaneTechs
Nov 13, 2016, 09:51 PM
It's less "OMG MAKE THIS DARK SOULS" and more of "Give some value to what the player is doing". Just letting everyone zerg rush endlessly doesn't do anything, and hell, people still seem fine with doing XQs and stuff. And yes, this is a rebuttal to all those who cry "STOP IT HURT NUBS", XQs already sorta do this... What is hurting everyone is the current system.
Hey look, I'm not defending the nubs that play this game despite how 90% of the content is piss easy to play through. I , in fact, want this this game to be harder (like the Necky TD, good step in that direction). It's a 12 person mpa or even 4, everythings going to get rushed or melted in a short amount of time. As for the XQ's, they're easily soloable if you decide to run it, 4man run will just reduce the time by not a huge amount unless you know, everyone top notch.

Solo XQ is what I (and others) use to test if you know how to play your class and I'm not referring to easy mode floors 1-5 either. It's not the hardest thing in the world to do but it does test you.

Also lol DARKS SOULS THE PINNACLE OF DIFFICULTY!! people are never going to give this up are they?

EDIT: and as a side note, I've been wanting this game to get harder for a very long time (aka Ama UQ) but I don't control the Dev's into doing so. If I had a choice about casuals complaining about something being too hard, I'd make the content harder for them


Edit: Also excuse more insanity, but they did also add easy to get 13*s that don't even require boss battles, right? And shouldn't people who are not as good party up so it's easier? It is an MMO...
Collection Sheets yes, this is just to help gear the casual scum so they dont complain as much about not getting "muh Are's" weps and falling behind in gear. Gix helps people at least be somewhat useful but even with this gear (at max potential and affixes) people still play bad. Give everyone austere gear, people still play bad, it won't matter because its all up to the individual to put the effort in and improve themselves (lol its just vidya gaems gaiz, relax! *activates 50mill LA while wearing 100mill Accessories* with garbage tier gear)

Zysets
Nov 13, 2016, 10:01 PM
Give everyone austere gear, people still play bad, it won't matter because its all up to the individual to put the effort in and improve themselves (lol its just vidya gaems gaiz, relax! *activates 50mill LA while wearing 100mill Accessories* with garbage tier gear)

If there's one thing I hate, it's people who spend millions on cosmetics and have shit gear. I think everyone can agree on that much at least.

ArcaneTechs
Nov 13, 2016, 10:08 PM
If there's one thing I hate, it's people who spend millions on cosmetics and have shit gear. I think everyone can agree on that much at least.
I agree except 100mill accessories, 50mill LA, Decked out gear (that they bought because they can't bother to learn the easy mode affix system) (use the Affix Sim to learn, not hard), still plays like trash in Mag or PD or w/e else

yoshiblue
Nov 13, 2016, 10:48 PM
We talking the throwing of 100 mill at the drop of a dime or 100 mill accessories of combined worth?

Great Pan
Nov 13, 2016, 11:15 PM
You died, you lost 5% of your meseta each time in free field.

How's that?

SteveCZ
Nov 13, 2016, 11:31 PM
You died, you lost 5% of your meseta each time in free field.

How's that?

That's no challenge for the poor.

Zysets
Nov 14, 2016, 12:02 AM
We talking the throwing of 100 mill at the drop of a dime or 100 mill accessories of combined worth?

I'm thinking of drop of a dime, maybe combined worth if they have ungrinded, x1-2 slotted units and barely grinded weapons.

I have no problem with saving up for a nice accessory, I do it too, but at least make sure you're equipment is up to par too... really all I expect from anyone in an MPA, especially now that "expert" blocks are a thing.


You died, you lost 5% of your meseta each time in free field.

How's that?

Meseta on hand or does this include storage? Because I never have Meseta on hand unless I haven't finished a quest, or plan to use Premium drinks in a few moments.

Keilyn
Nov 14, 2016, 03:34 PM
Reading this thread...
I can't help but point out that this game is intended for casuals.

Even the PSO-2 Anime hints at that when it tries to make every character "Have a Hardcore Real Life" in some way or form and the game is used casually to "have fun" despite the conventions and fandom. If the anime is any indication of "Intent" ,it would be that SEGA doesn't intend for players in this game to be hardcore about it.

If you truly believe in hardcore, and greater challenges, nothing is stopping you from playing games where people will always hold you accountable for your actions and beating tough zones means entering groups and smashing through the tough and endgame content together. But a Casual PvE game that revolves around evolving characters through fashion.....Don't expect a 180 degree turn to the worse. :)

Vatallus
Nov 14, 2016, 03:48 PM
If there's one thing I hate, it's people who spend millions on cosmetics and have shit gear. I think everyone can agree on that much at least.

Where the hell do I upvote this. You can easily make 4 affix gear that breaks 100 attack these days. Soul/Attack/ExQ/Mod isn't hard to throw together and won't break your bank... usually. It would be cheaper than these last two 40m LAs.

Enforcer MKV
Nov 14, 2016, 05:23 PM
Uh...let me try this insult thing? Uh, get out of my simple game that doesn't want to hurt feelings? Go play Kirby's Epic Yarn?

Did I do this right? Sorry?

After being sick for a week [and still being sick..] and having a particularly bad day today, this made me laugh like an idiot. A ridiculous answer to a rather unnecessarily rude response to your idea. I just want to say thanks for making my day a little bit better.

------

NOW, that being said; personally I'm fine with the idea, I like the thought of people actually having some form punishment for performing badly. Honestly speaking outside of new players I don't think it'll do much. Another point is that this game has a way of sometimes just......utterly screwing with you. And not in a fair way. They'd probably have to work out a fair bit of the cheap hits from the game and at that point, if you remove the cheapshots from a PS game, is it really still a Phantasy Star title? :wacko:

Zysets
Nov 14, 2016, 05:25 PM
Where the hell do I upvote this. You can easily make 4 affix gear that breaks 100 attack these days. Soul/Attack/ExQ/Mod isn't hard to throw together and won't break your bank... usually. It would be cheaper than these last two 40m LAs.

No yeah, honestly. I know this game is casual oriented, I actually enjoy that, since I don't have the time I used to to play these sorts of games, but it isn't much to expect people to at least put 100 Attack on their units or something before they play dress up.

I mean, it's a good investment, it's a small price to pay and it makes making more money easier in the future.

vantpers
Nov 14, 2016, 05:47 PM
Affixing is what new players hate the most. 100 attack is definitely too much for newbies.

SteveCZ
Nov 14, 2016, 10:07 PM
I've tried this kind of idea, but it's merely a team-only thing. I mean, you can just do this with your own rule (like this) and get awards from your folks. You can have this to be like an event.

One of the kind I had was playing AQ with very high risk without any healing, 4/4. If you are dead, go back to ship and wait. Whoever survive the last wins the event. If everyone dies, then nobody win.

It still sticks to the base system of the game, but it's not a game changing thing. It's a good thing for small events for everyone to kill the boredom.

Keilyn
Nov 15, 2016, 12:09 AM
I think PSO-2 needs gametypes and different ways of playing the game...

Example of a gametype I would create as a prototype:

Skirmish Mode (My version of Endless Nightmare):

4-player mode

All healing disabled (this includes mag, megiverse (and all life drain weapons), summoner skills, etc)
All Monsters Immune to Zondeel and Status Effects
Monster movement rate + attack speed + 25%
Triple Spawn Rate

All players start with a baseline power, which increases as enemies are slain...
All players begin with breakable units that have defensive stats or resistances (from Damage and from Status Effects)
The units can sustain some damage before they break...

3 seconds = 1 tick.
Every tick, Health is decreased by 2%, RDR is increased by 2%
Killing a Monster recovers 1% player-health to any player who hit the monster
Killing a Monster increases RDR by +1% to the player who landed the killing blow.


If a player dies, while dead, one of the following three penalties occurs at random to those who remain alive (Doom Bind Conditions)

Attack Bind: Reduces Attack Power and Damage Bonuses
Defense Bind: Reduces Defense Power and Resistances
Energy Bind: Reduces PP Max and PP Regeneration Rate

If one player remains alive, that player will have the three penalties stacked on the player.

Upon Clearing a Zone, All players are revived prior to the next zone, and a crystal is shattered which drops items to boost the characters that pick them up, (HP Drainage doesn't exist while area is cleared) Including new versions of Atomizers.

Moon Atomizer/R: Revives a Player with 1 health, half PP, and 10 seconds of invincibility. If the player fails to kill an enemy through landing the killing blow within the time frame, the player dies again. Killing an enemy ends invincibility and brings the health of the player to 25%.
Sol Atomizer/R: Removes Conditions and immunizes the player for 10 seconds from DoT Conditions; Removes Doom Bind for 10 seconds.
Star Atomizer/R: Restores 25% of total health, and regenerates units.

Pickups:
In-game pickups will be equipped immediately and automatically to save time. Pickups of the same will merge together to make a stronger weapon.

Out-Of-Game Pickups:
I rather have a point system to trade in for items (like challenge) or XQ (where one gets items at the end, allowing all the players to focus on the XQ itself)

Maps: Maps I would love for this are maps like what we see in AQ under high Risk (with adjustments of course)...

Skill Changes:
Weak Bullet: Can multi-target, Enhances damage vs Breakable Targets by +100% and Non-Weak Points by +50%. Has no effect on Weak Points.

Limit Break: Every Tick, Drains 5% Health. Increases attack power, movement speed, and attack speed by +25%, restores 1% health each time a critical hit is landed.
Critical Strikes: Critical Hit Rate and Damage is increased based on current health. Max 20% @ < 20% health.

Iron Will: 100% Proc Rate: Rather than die, player gains invincibility for 10 seconds. If the player lands the killing blow on an enemy, player health is restored to 25% and Iron Will ends and goes into a Silent Cooldown (30 seconds). If the player is unable to land a killing blow on an enemy, the player dies.

Stances: Stances will recover 1% health if a critical hit is scored on a target based on the condition of the stance (max 5% per attack). Fury Stance will recover health only if Striking Weapons land the killing blow on a target. Average Stance will work on any weapon, but has to land the killing blow. Weak Stance would do 1.5% health recovery (as hitting weak points is far tougher than just hitting based on position.

In short, this makes Average Stance and Fury Stance better for Mobs, and all conditional stances better for bosses.
One Active Stance at a time only.

Combined Techs: Will charge slightly faster. In this game-type, a combined-tech upon completion of casting will take enough time to cost the force player around 6 - 9% of their health.

Elemental Damage on Techs: Rather than focus on skill trees with damage multipliers on Elements, the focus would be on weapons with 25% Damage additions on them. Some split-element, others one element. This would help the force player not become entangled in a single area of tech casts as its a four-player gametype and not a 12-player gametype. This would allow a force to actually be a force and not be a lesser-force in more specialized gameplay.

(those were just examples... don't want to make this wall of text any larger than it should be)

sol_trigger
Nov 15, 2016, 02:54 AM
I like the thought of people actually having some form punishment for performing badly.


punishment for performing badly.

punishment for performing badly.

punishment for performing badly.

punishment for performing badly.

punishment for performing badly.


OMG .
now this is perfectly described how an elitist scum would think

Meteor Weapon
Nov 15, 2016, 03:58 AM
Dying and failing at boss is a punishment itself and tells you to git gud to survive. Dying and failing in a free field when I'm just doing some gathering and other random stuff when some Gel Wulf or some random shit pop out of nowhere kills me instantly(as a Dewman Fo) isn't nice, well I can still be careful about it and not hit but cheap accidents can happen. Doing a single quest can be quite time consuming sometimes and a chore for me, and having some random shit kicking my bucket only to fail or B ranked(resulting in incomplete daillies) because of that can be quite frustrating.

Flaoc
Nov 15, 2016, 07:52 AM
OMG .
now this is perfectly described how an elitist scum would think

wait you mean punished like every single other game out there not called pso2 including single player makes people elitists??? wow!

Kondibon
Nov 15, 2016, 08:28 AM
I'd like to point out that even in Dark Souls they tend to make a lot of boss runs very easy specifically because throwing yourself at it over and over again quickly is the best way to get better. Outside of games or content specifically meant to be a marathon, short iteration times are really important to getting better and learning content. Being forced to redo the content entirely doesn't encourage bad players to get better, It just makes them get frustrated and stop trying to get better.

Personally I think rewarding players for doing well is more important than punishing them for doing badly, unless the game was specifically designed for that in the first place. Considering a lot of the "difficulty" in PSO2 is random bullshit flying around from off the screen I don't see why players should be punished for what's essentially bad luck. Games that try to be punishing also try to be fair, and PSO2 is anything but fair. You want players to feel like "Ok, i messed up, how can do that better next time?" not "What the fuck just happened? Where did that come from? Why couldn't I move?"

oratank
Nov 15, 2016, 08:57 AM
it already have punishment for being suck. td series tower health is rare drop rate.also as tri boost if you good you can use it more run than being suck.

as for free field die in boss room is a big punishment :/

blkbox11
Nov 15, 2016, 09:39 AM
This stuff is interesting to discuss, but as some people have said: we're not the ones who call the shots. Heck, we're not even supposed to be in the game according to the ToS. I feel that this is important.

All the complaints and suggestions taken seriously by SEGA are made by the Japanese playerbase for whom the game is intended, and their concerns tend to be the opposite of the English-speaking/Western players. Japanese players seem to want an easier, smoother game where losses and frustration are minimized, while also trying to reduce the number of people who can drag them down (and in turn cause frustration) in more challenging content, hence the inclusion of Expert Blocks.

The game is definitely much faster and less tedious than it was back in 2012, and I expect it to continue on this route all the way to the end of its lifespan. I know some people see that as a bad thing, but hopefully with stuff like Necky thrown in more often, both casual and challenge-thirsty crowds will be sort of satisfied.

That aside, I'm fine with equalizing the death penalties for free fields and boss battles. EQ death penalties should stay the same though, returning to campship allowed, but with 3 moons max. There are occasions where an entire MPA wipes, either due to bad luck or just having a lot of undergeared players in it- people on lower difficulties are affected by this the most, since their blocks are typically limited to 1~2 full ones, and they don't always have a group that knows what they're doing.

Vatallus
Nov 15, 2016, 10:56 AM
I say we go back to where you had to S rank Koffie's area unlock COs.

isCasted
Nov 15, 2016, 11:01 AM
I say we go back to where you had to S rank Koffie's area unlock COs.

I'd be all for it (not in contrary to my last post (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?236694-Idea-3-quot-deaths-quot-and-fail-free-field&p=3403335&viewfull=1#post3403335), but merely because this change in itself was stupid), but first...

How about a fucking score indicator already?

Zorak000
Nov 15, 2016, 11:58 AM
This stuff is interesting to discuss, but as some people have said: we're not the ones who call the shots. Heck, we're not even supposed to be in the game according to the ToS. I feel that this is important.

All the complaints and suggestions taken seriously by SEGA are made by the Japanese playerbase for whom the game is intended, and their concerns tend to be the opposite of the English-speaking/Western players. Japanese players seem to want an easier, smoother game where losses and frustration are minimized, while also trying to reduce the number of people who can drag them down (and in turn cause frustration) in more challenging content, hence the inclusion of Expert Blocks.

The game is definitely much faster and less tedious than it was back in 2012, and I expect it to continue on this route all the way to the end of its lifespan. I know some people see that as a bad thing, but hopefully with stuff like Necky thrown in more often, both casual and challenge-thirsty crowds will be sort of satisfied.

That aside, I'm fine with equalizing the death penalties for free fields and boss battles. EQ death penalties should stay the same though, returning to campship allowed, but with 3 moons max. There are occasions where an entire MPA wipes, either due to bad luck or just having a lot of undergeared players in it- people on lower difficulties are affected by this the most, since their blocks are typically limited to 1~2 full ones, and they don't always have a group that knows what they're doing.
yeah I've been playing since beta; reducing frustration is always welcome to see. I'll admit seeing a total MPA wipe on Loser's time stop (or Apos Dorios's DPS check attack) getting foiled by someone popping a half-doll and tossing out a moon to pick up everybody else makes it lose a bit of it's effect, but it sure as heck beats failing a mining base/magatsu phase 1 and getting ejected back to the lobby empty-handed with the clock still running on the Emergency Quest's availability.

I think that is a bit of what people seem to be missing when they want more things to be able to outright fail like in other games; at least in FFXIV your group can dust themselves off and dive back in, since I don't think there are any dungeons that have availability time limits like we got on our EQs

Phantom Battleship Yamato feels like a step in the right direction to me, it feels more like a Thrill Ride with a big-ol loot crystal at the end. I do understand though that stuff like Necky's Challenge does need to use the Emergency Quest format too, otherwise we would get another Towards the Future/White Beast situation on our hands. I like Necky's Challenge too, I just wish they could rework the block system so I don't have to camp out a good block hours in advance for it; but that's a completely different issue.

For now I want to see if they do something new to Challenge Mode to bring it back into relevancy again; I really enjoyed it. Kinda disappointed that Las Vegas didn't have any ARKS Quests after the good job they did with Train Ghidoran Supression

Flaoc
Nov 15, 2016, 12:14 PM
I'd be all for it (not in contrary to my last post (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?236694-Idea-3-quot-deaths-quot-and-fail-free-field&p=3403335&viewfull=1#post3403335), but merely because this change in itself was stupid), but first...

How about a fucking score indicator already?

not a fan of this idea as new chars on old accounts are still subjected to this crap instead of being able to rush through it so they can do what alts do (klotho)

Enforcer MKV
Nov 15, 2016, 01:13 PM
You want players to feel like "Ok, i messed up, how can do that better next time?" not "What the fuck just happened? Where did that come from? Why couldn't I move?"

Honestly Sega doesn't even do a good job of that now. A lot of times something just comes out of left field or stunlocks you to death, especially in some MPAs. Not being able to defend yourself or properly get out of the way is very off-putting. I refuse to run certain MPAs with En because there's little to no way to get around it in some cases.


it sure as heck beats failing a mining base/magatsu phase 1 and getting ejected back to the lobby empty-handed with the clock still running on the Emergency Quest's availability.

I think that is a bit of what people seem to be missing when they want more things to be able to outright fail like in other games; at least in FFXIV your group can dust themselves off and dive back in, since I don't think there are any dungeons that have availability time limits like we got on our EQs


That's a big thing, yeah. Honestly, in my opinion, the limited runs on EQs needs to be removed. Tying in to what Konbi said about rewarding good players over bad players, allowing those people who do run well, who do perform at a higher level do just do more runs to get more stuff would be nice. The way it is now it's just "Oh, you hit the run cap faster than other folks, guess you're done for now." And that really sucks when you're on a roll. [BTW, no, there are no Dungeons with availability time limits on them.]

Also; Block system needs to be reworked. I'm not sure of an optimal way of doing that, but the way it is right now.....it just encourages people to sit around the lobby and wait for EQs. Talking and socializing is fine, that's the direction this game has been leaning towards heavily for a while now, but even still, just having your character sitting there while AFK for several hours just so you can get a spot when there are people who'd actively be doing something....eh, personally it just feels wrong and has got to be frustrating to those people.

Keilyn
Nov 15, 2016, 01:27 PM
I guess its official.
There is no endgame in pso-2.

Map Development for Endgame is mostly EQs and weapon/units have eclipsed any challenge an enemy can throw a solo player. Acquiring the latest weapons improves the players in the area of acquisition, but makes the game more boring. Dependency is on what Limited-Event SEGA feeds Endgame players. Feels much like a Zero-Sum game. :(

Penalties or New Difficulties won't solve anything since players will just rearm and in six months we will return to square one on this problem. A shame that one of the prettiest F2P games out there truly is one of the most problematic.

Kondibon
Nov 15, 2016, 03:51 PM
Honestly Sega doesn't even do a good job of that now. A lot of times something just comes out of left field or stunlocks you to death, especially in some MPAs. Not being able to defend yourself or properly get out of the way is very off-putting. I refuse to run certain MPAs with En because there's little to no way to get around it in some cases.
I think you missunderstood. I was trying to say that PSO2 DOESN'T do that, and because it doesn't having deaths be harshly punished is a dumb idea.

tsundere4you
Nov 15, 2016, 07:57 PM
That's a big thing, yeah. Honestly, in my opinion, the limited runs on EQs needs to be removed. Tying in to what Konbi said about rewarding good players over bad players, allowing those people who do run well, who do perform at a higher level do just do more runs to get more stuff would be nice. The way it is now it's just "Oh, you hit the run cap faster than other folks, guess you're done for now." And that really sucks when you're on a roll. [BTW, no, there are no Dungeons with availability time limits on them.]

The game has had content for years that encouraged playing better to reap more rewards. A big reason I strived to gain better gear and improve myself was due to the fact that the content in the game gave you more rewards the more effort you put into it. Limited runs on EQs has been relatively recent change and has ruined that aspect of the game for me, making gearing up feel pointless.

Just asking for limited runs to be removed ignores the reasons why it was added in the first place however. While it works as a way to limit the number of rewards players get; I think Sega uses it primarily to avoid having groups craft optimal routes or strategies for speed and then lambasting other players for not complying. This is also why map design in some EQs has become more linear, so new players don't need to worry about which path is the most optimal one or get yelled at.

To solve this issue I'd rather Sega stopped making content that catered to both groups of players. The primary reason ult amduscia was so disappointing for people was it had to be clearable by the average player and that's simply too easy for anyone who puts the effort in. We need a content split; easy mode for casuals who don't care and a hard mode for people who put effort into their gear and play well. New EQ is added; two difficulty modes. New ultimate is added; two difficulty modes, etc. Give players a reason to play well by having the hard mode content have better drop rates and have it more difficult now that it's not designed so 12 people with 11* weapons can also beat it. Now that we have a playerbase split with the expert blocks, let's have content to go along with that.


Also; Block system needs to be reworked. I'm not sure of an optimal way of doing that, but the way it is right now.....it just encourages people to sit around the lobby and wait for EQs. Talking and socializing is fine, that's the direction this game has been leaning towards heavily for a while now, but even still, just having your character sitting there while AFK for several hours just so you can get a spot when there are people who'd actively be doing something....eh, personally it just feels wrong and has got to be frustrating to those people.

The block system is a failure but I'd imagine changing it now might not be possible or would require a huge amount of work. The ideal situation would make instances not tied to lobbies so you could join a party anywhere on the server. No need to camp out blocks for EQs anymore if that happened. It would also make it easier to find groups for other stuff like ultimate or riding quests and would probably have helped keep those alive for longer. I'm not expecting that change to happen until PSO3 however.

Enforcer MKV
Nov 15, 2016, 11:36 PM
I think you missunderstood. I was trying to say that PSO2 DOESN'T do that, and because it doesn't having deaths be harshly punished is a dumb idea.

I don't....think I misunderstood? I was agreeing with the fact that most of the difficulty is random unfairness. I probably just worded it wrong, I'm still not feeling well. Sorry. :S


The game has had content for years that encouraged playing better to reap more rewards. A big reason I strived to gain better gear and improve myself was due to the fact that the content in the game gave you more rewards the more effort you put into it. Limited runs on EQs has been relatively recent change and has ruined that aspect of the game for me, making gearing up feel pointless.

Just asking for limited runs to be removed ignores the reasons why it was added in the first place however. While it works as a way to limit the number of rewards players get; I think Sega uses it primarily to avoid having groups craft optimal routes or strategies for speed and then lambasting other players for not complying. This is also why map design in some EQs has become more linear, so new players don't need to worry about which path is the most optimal one or get yelled at.

To solve this issue I'd rather Sega stopped making content that catered to both groups of players. The primary reason ult amduscia was so disappointing for people was it had to be clearable by the average player and that's simply too easy for anyone who puts the effort in. We need a content split; easy mode for casuals who don't care and a hard mode for people who put effort into their gear and play well. New EQ is added; two difficulty modes. New ultimate is added; two difficulty modes, etc. Give players a reason to play well by having the hard mode content have better drop rates and have it more difficult now that it's not designed so 12 people with 11* weapons can also beat it. Now that we have a playerbase split with the expert blocks, let's have content to go along with that.



The block system is a failure but I'd imagine changing it now might not be possible or would require a huge amount of work. The ideal situation would make instances not tied to lobbies so you could join a party anywhere on the server. No need to camp out blocks for EQs anymore if that happened. It would also make it easier to find groups for other stuff like ultimate or riding quests and would probably have helped keep those alive for longer. I'm not expecting that change to happen until PSO3 however.

I think it was a combination of Sega not wanting people to get too many Excubes from EQs in addition to attempting to make people play nice with one another. Not sure it really works, but eh. And I'd like them to add a special mode for people who want the difficulty, but I don't necessarily see it happening. Have to wait and see, though.

emanresuj
Nov 16, 2016, 02:52 AM
interesting thoughts here.

nonetheless, i disagree with the sentiment that the block system is an abject failure. actually, i feel the opposite. i have come to believe that, at least to some extent, little "annoyances" like the block system have been put in place intentionally, perhaps even primarily, to be a not-so-insignificant frustration to RMT;

i have never played an mmo -- and i have played many, some with even smaller player bases and resources than pso2 -- that had a pretty decent economy, one almost devoid of an overt RMT presence (when was the last time you've been asked to visit something akin to pso2.gimmegold.com [even once]?). taken individually, things like out-of-range ellipses filter, block system, premium overflow block, no global chat, random instances, time-gates, and so on probably seem like rampant ineptitude at best, but, to me at least, point to the fact that sega has made its goal, from the beginning, to protect the economy (and therefore, the viability of scratch -- indirectly the longevity of the game itself) from RMT. for this i am grateful.

i think that sega has to balance its anti-RMT stance with making some things more convenient (e.g. eq passes totally called that one) for the player base in toto, but i think that it will. sega has made a good amount of missteps, but often finds its way... eventually?

more on topic: the replies here which make the most sense to me are the ones whose authors seem to consider that this is, first and foremost, a casual game by any objective -- and almost any subjective -- standard. that is to say, anything which would make things too difficult for most of the casual players (i.e., the ones most likely to scratch because fashion) is simply going to be a non-starter. conversely, to address hardcore rage, sega appears to be doing things such as trying to teach casuals/shoshinsha/etc how to "correctly" play the game (e.g., some koffie quests are tutorial gated now), nudging casuals toward aspiring to be "better" at the game (or at least spending lol) via expert blocks, and so forth. in other words, sega seems to be currently inclined to address the concerns of one pole by interacting "directly" with the other pole to reduce polarity one the whole. nevertheless, i am not certain that sega will go very far to exacerbate by obtuse mechanics an insidiously broadening schism between both these poles because although neither pole, quite understandably, wants to feel marginalized, alienated even, only one of them is the one more likely to AC....

Kondibon
Nov 16, 2016, 08:48 AM
I don't....think I misunderstood? I was agreeing with the fact that most of the difficulty is random unfairness. I probably just worded it wrong, I'm still not feeling well. Sorry. :S.Eh it's allright. = w=


interesting thoughts here.

nonetheless, i disagree with the sentiment that the block system is an abject failure. actually, i feel the opposite. i have come to believe that, at least to some extent, little "annoyances" like the block system have been put in place intentionally, perhaps even primarily, to be a not-so-insignificant frustration to RMT;

Having played GW2 pre and post Megaserver and can tell you that shared space for finding groups is a huge improvement.

Also, I have no idea what you're getting at with this RMT stuff. I'm pretty sure everyone's kind of in agreement that keeping the lobbies in blocks but let quests be joinable regardless of which block you're in would be the best compromise.

Besides, considering how laggy a block gets on a full block, I'm pretty sure the main reason is server stability, because that's pretty much ALWAYS the reason a game has a block or channel system.

Eternal255
Nov 16, 2016, 01:51 PM
this is, first and foremost, a casual game

I think this is the most important thing people need to remember. It's an FTP game intended to be pretty casual. You can conclude this by realizing that your 13* weapon you obtained last year will still allow you to be useful in today's EQs, heck even 12*'s are still pretty useful, and that by +150ing your weapons and units only offer you the minimal amount of damage boost over someone who simply +75's them.

I for one like this concept. It means a couple things- 1) I can still use my favorite weapons and not be a hindrance to the MPA/party and 2) I could take breaks from the game as I desire and still be relevant when I come back.

I hated how in other MMO's you have to constantly grind and be on every day in order to stay relevant, where new gear obliterates old gear and should you miss out, be unlucky, or not play enough, you're going the be getting your ass handed to you.

Keilyn
Nov 16, 2016, 05:00 PM
I think this is the most important thing people need to remember. It's an FTP game intended to be pretty casual. You can conclude this by realizing that your 13* weapon you obtained last year will still allow you to be useful in today's EQs, heck even 12*'s are still pretty useful, and that by +150ing your weapons and units only offer you the minimal amount of damage boost over someone who simply +75's them.

I for one like this concept. It means a couple things- 1) I can still use my favorite weapons and not be a hindrance to the MPA/party and 2) I could take breaks from the game as I desire and still be relevant when I come back.

I hated how in other MMO's you have to constantly grind and be on every day in order to stay relevant, where new gear obliterates old gear and should you miss out, be unlucky, or not play enough, you're going the be getting your ass handed to you.


I do agree that this game is mostly casual. ;)

A few things:
1) Its a 9 - 13% increase in damage between 75x4 and 150x4.

2) You must have been out of the MMO Scene for a long time because for most of the MMOs I have installed, my weapons are still good, and I don't need to create a six-element rainbow set of each weapon to be at my max.

3) Events in

PSO2: Conform to SEGA's EQ schedule just to discover you spend more time preparing for an event than running an event; Repeat the process all over again when you are done. What if you have work at the time of an EQ, or have a commitment? Well, Too Bad!

Most other MMOs: Enjoy being able to run the event at your own leisure; However, If its time-sensitive, expect to set an hour or two aside for something big.

[spoiler-box]This is the reason why most of the people in my friendlist have left PSO-2. Their lives changed and they couldn't continue playing this game because it was too demanding on their time. They hated that the EQ schedule is about conforming your life to a game and left to games that were more conscious of their time. Some on my list couldn't stand the casualness and loneliness and went to more group-oriented games. A select few of them also expressed to me the desire to return to playing games that made them feel safer and secure. They didn't like the idea of being reminded that they aren't supposed to play a Japanese game and felt they were doing something morally wrong and went on to play a game with their own kind.[/spoiler-box]

vantpers
Nov 16, 2016, 05:43 PM
That 300 attack increases my damage by about 6.5%, if I don't use team tree.

Eternal255
Nov 16, 2016, 06:14 PM
PSO2: Conform to SEGA's EQ schedule just to discover you spend more time preparing for an event than running an event; Repeat the process all over again when you are done. What if you have work at the time of an EQ, or have a commitment? Well, Too Bad!

True, true. I would be much better geared if I was actually able to make all of the PD eq's.

However, what with the collection files now, that's really not an issue- buy saiki set, farm ult amd for your weapon.
I think the CF option has made this game even more casual than it was previously.

Daku
Nov 19, 2016, 01:15 PM
The EQ schedule is what initially wrecked my sleep schedule for a while many months ago actually... kinda sad but holy hell do I regret now that I've effectively quit the game more or less lately. Keilyen does have a point though, I have spent hours before some given EQs readying my storage, making sure I didn't forget some boost I desired for that EQ... then sat in the lobby for at least a hour and a half just waiting for the EQ to started while I went to play something on a console/3DS...

Kinda sad really and I really wish they could revamp the EQ system a bit since EQs are the only content that doens't die 'Too fast' nowadays.

Dammy
Nov 20, 2016, 01:43 AM
what's the point of all of this ? are you going to feedback to SEGA ?

Moffen
Nov 20, 2016, 07:51 AM
Personally I think they should throw more into the free field like spires that summon ridiculously OP bosses but are entirely optional.

Or something.
I dont know,this game is too easy but theres hardly any way to fix it and its mainly because the entire focus is DPS nonstop and SubHuToWin issue.

isCasted
Nov 20, 2016, 09:47 AM
what's the point of all of this ? are you going to feedback to SEGA ?

Welcome to a forum. We are here to discuss things.

HeyItsTHK
Nov 20, 2016, 01:39 PM
Didn't read most posts, so I dunno if anyone brought this up.

But I think the issue besides balancing around 12 players (you can't, which is why you have to come up with delicate situations of awareness that TD 2-4 + Necky provides) is the randomness. Sometimes it's a breeze, sometimes you get caught with an unholy combination of enemies (like diabo, cougar and obnoxious/sturdy trash mobs).

Also what about halfdolls and scapedolls?

Edit: I saw some Dark Souls mentions and god damn how many times do I have to bring it up. Dark Souls is hard until it stops being so, then it's piss easy.

MegaMettaurX
Nov 20, 2016, 06:40 PM
I'd say, we need more of the opposite. Give quests some checkpoints, infinite lives, but make it much harder. Make boss fights and encounters longer and put maybe some objectives and mechanics in it, that aren't OMFGWTFBBQ max damage output. Give enemy groups attack formations, make healing harder, objectives during boss fights where you have to deactivate shields in a certain way, or protect a crystal during the boss fight that gets attacked by waves of trash mobs, that increase in size as the boss loses health... you know.. like a game?

to make it more interesting:
- balance player vs enemy so that no one can outlevel the enemies beyond a certain point.
- cut the whole Rush Rush Rush mentality for everything except time attacks. Make an interesting scoring system for killing enemies with style and make dying reset the score. Make drop rates decent and let the score have a large influence on drop rates.
- clearing a quest with more players cuts the rates a bit.
I would agree with this, but drop rate should be increasing for every player on the map, to promote multiplayer. what's the purpose of an MMO if you're just gonna play single player?