PSO2-Team planning to add new weapon grinding requirement to Expert block...

[Sizustar]

The specific is not known yet, but it will be related to grinding/affix of the gear you're using

Current theory is it's either require you to have specific title like previous requirement, or it will check your equipment?

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2016/12/161221a.html

[sparab]

Time to +10 and max element your umbra sticks!

Place my bet on NT+30 title.

[Zysets]

I doubt a +10 OT/+30 NT weapon requirement wouldn't change much. But I mean, who knows, it might be easy to do but maybe not many people actually ever bother to do it. I stopped bothering to check other's equipment in MPAs because it hurt sometimes.

[Xaeris]

While they're at it, maybe they can update the XQ portion of the entry requirement to the new XQ.

[GHNeko]

YES. MUH DELICIOUS BARRIERS.

GIVE ME MORE.

YESSS YESSS.

EDIT: what a use of my 2000th post. :^)

[Sizustar]

YES. MUH DELICIOUS BARRIERS.

GIVE ME MORE.

YESSS YESSS.

EDIT: what a use of my 2000th post. :^)

Well, if I remember right, only 40% of the player was able to pass the Solo Extreme in one go?

[TheszNuts]

Well, if I remember right, only 40% of the player was able to pass the Solo Extreme in one go?

If thats accurate, then that would imply only 40% of the current clears, which is ~50%, so 20% in reality.

Also, what did they state as the reasoning for the revision?

[sparab]

Also, what did they state as the reasoning for the revision?

Because 90% players are "experts" and half of them can't squeeze in "expert" blocks last night?

[Sizustar]

If thats accurate, then that would imply only 40% of the current clears, which is ~50%, so 20% in reality.

Also, what did they state as the reasoning for the revision?

They think that equipment is another factor to be taken in, instead of just player skill.

" 今は逆に『エキスパートブロック』に入れる人が多くなって、
条件を見直してほしいという意見も出ています。
単純に今の条件を厳しくするのではなく、
条件の方向性を見直します。

エクストリームクエストのクリアだけでは
装備を強化していなかったりなど、
プレイスキル以外の部分は測れません。

だから今度は……
『現在の条件 ＋ 武器強化関連の条件』
を加えようかなとも考えています。

どうなるかはデータを分析してからになりますが、
これ以上条件にプレイスキルが求められないようにしたい次第です。 "

[ArcaneTechs]

Well, if I remember right, only 40% of the player was able to pass the Solo Extreme in one go?
I recall reading that 25% of the player base cleared it fully before they implemented the req, could be wrong though

i whole heartedly welcome these req's so i dont have to see astra being equipped at +0 or +7

[Kondibon]

This still won't solve the problem of people not knowing what to do in EQs. = w= I wonder how it's going to work for Su though. Pet levels?

EDIT: inb4 I can't go onto the expert blocks because I didn't grind my tact.

[Zysets]

I recall reading that 25% of the player base cleared it fully before they implemented the req, could be wrong though

i whole heartedly welcome these req's so i dont have to see astra being equipped at +0 or +7

I'm guessing it'll only be an requirement to get in, you can probably switch weapons to anything you have once you're in. If you got booted to a non expert block just for equipping a non-max grind weapon, that'd be silly.

Personally, I hope this is more like FFXIV's Item levels. I haven't played FFXIV since the week before Heavensward came out, so no idea what it's like now, but I liked that system.

[CoWorker]

Ughhh... Can SEGA just make the solo XQ requirement to clear any 6~10 quest and call it a day... Or even just make a set of channels to cater to those who cleared 6~10 separate from 1~5 clearers

[ralf542]

We need a requirment that you need xyz Atk and +10 OT(with at least Lv1 pot) or +30 NT weapon. But it would be too good. I gladly abuse this new system with +30 1☆ weapon and 1☆ sub units just like in FFXIV where you dowgrade from blue gear to NQ green just to have higher iLvl.

[ZER0 DX]

I'm guessing it'll only be an requirement to get in, you can probably switch weapons to anything you have once you're in. If you got booted to a non expert block just for equipping a non-max grind weapon, that'd be silly.

Personally, I hope this is more like FFXIV's Item levels. I haven't played FFXIV since the week before Heavensward came out, so no idea what it's like now, but I liked that system.

It's still a requirement for dungeons and raids but it's a non-issue since Palace of the Dead practically hands you a free ilv255 weapon of your choosing, and the rest of your gear is easily obtained by playing through the game. I had my secondary class end up with a higher ilvl than my main class just by going through Heavensward dungeons. Getting enough Lore and Scripture (HW versions of Poetics) to purchase gear in Idyllshire didn't take long at all so I could almost immediately run the end game Alexander and Wiping Weeping city of Mhach raids. Haven't looked at Savage Alexander yet though, started leveling two more classes in PotD instead. It's literally XIV's version of PSO's TTF with a mystery dungeon twist.

...I MEAN HOW ABOUT THAT PSO2, COOL GAME RIGHT?

In all seriousness I personally don't mind an extra gate for expert blocks as far as random MPA's go, I'm fairly certain I already meet the item requirements anyway. Full Austere set says hello at least. I do find it funny one of my friends stopped playing PSO2 because he couldn't clear solo XQ until I did it for him literally just this morning which got him back into it, and now they're creating another gate he more than likely won't be able to pass. It's my only gripe with this system, it makes it impossible to play with friends who can't clear these requirements without hindering yourself.

[elryan]

The wall needs to be higher.

Make the requirement = cleared both Solo XQ 10th floor please.

[Zysets]

I honestly don't think clearing 6-10 proves anything more than 1-5. It's just as easy to cheese through and you still don't learn anything about being a good member of an MPA.

[Agastya]

clearing 6~10 means you learned how to use a dragon slayer with automate halfline

heaven/hell 1~5 actually teaches you a lot for basic gameplay (how to fight nyaus, how to single out problem enemies, breaking enemies to chain stun) but people have just been ignoring learning in order to just "get in" and not have to deal with "the bad players" when they're a part of the problem

i'd like to see ais solo quests for barriers as well so we know that people in expert blocks know how to pilot them, if we get more rideroid content i'd like to see that as well

[Zyrusticae]

We need some kind of solo XQ that actually has tasks completely relevant to MPA performance. Being able to solo a weaker Double & PD, being able to protect a single tower in a solo TD (while gathering crystals at the same time), maybe a short time attack section that tests your DPS... y'know, things that are relevant to one's contribution in most endgame EQs nowadays. They can tune the difficulty to whatever they think is appropriate - the ultimate point is that people need to be able to do the bare minimum to contribute to the group.

Solo XQs are somewhat of a test of one's ability to exploit the mechanics of those XQs, but they don't have enough applicability to activities outside of those XQs. That's just not good enough. We need more intelligent testing of player abilities, not just more barriers in general.

[Lyrise]

The wall needs to be higher.

Make the requirement = cleared both Solo XQ 10th floor please.

I think if you also add the conditions that all stage orders must be cleared and the entire run under a certain amount of time (both in a run, not exclusive from each other) this can probably work. Sure you can cheese it, but there are a number of levels where you need to be pretty precise, but if you make the timer somewhat on the tight end (like 10 minutes), it can also filter out those people who depend on say, Combat Escape to freepass through the stage, since forcing a timer on needing to be precise can cause the less than well-experienced to panic.

[Vintasticvin]

Heres what we do. We build a new wall around the "expert" block and make the scrubby trashy lesser players pay for it. Who's with me?!

[Atmius]

I'd disagree with that somewhat. Stage 8 of solo xq 2 is basically designed to be a time waster and is quite tedious for basically anything but braver to successfully complete the floor order for. Every video I've seen fails it on purpose because it's simply pointless to waste excessive amounts of time trying to get behind a whole bunch of enemies, or waiting for more eyes to spawn if all enemies (but not laplace) are dead.

[jooozek]

i say we add also a minimum 170cm height requirement while we are at it :wacko:

[Zysets]

i say we add also a minimum 170cm height requirement while we are at it :wacko:

As a Karen Erra clone that's 164 cm
I object

[rsod]

well what if I enter block with +30 weapon and then change it to ungrinded? Will it transfer me back to other blocks? Also affixing requirement is definitely bad idea, affixing is waaaaay too messy and expensive, for example I never bothered with it and I feel perfectly fine.

[arokidaaron]

well what if I enter block with +30 weapon and then change it to ungrinded? Will it transfer me back to other blocks? Also affixing requirement is definitely bad idea, affixing is waaaaay too messy and expensive, for example I never bothered with it and I feel perfectly fine.

But affixing a 60atk is way cheaper than dressing up your character :-P

[rsod]

But affixing a 60atk is way cheaper than dressing up your character :-P

maybe it is, but it's too much time figuring out how to affix it properly. I don't want to sit at the simulator for 10 hours figuring how to do thing. Not fun at all.

[Skyly]

Anyone know how fast Sega implemented block requirements after they initially talked about it? I want a mental estimate of when we'll see part 2 of block requirements.

[otakun]

Anyone know how fast Sega implemented block requirements after they initially talked about it? I want a mental estimate of when we'll see part 2 of block requirements.

I was pretty sure it took weeks after expert blocks were officially announced for them to be implemented but this updated requirements hasn't been officially announced so it might be treated differently like the braver / gunner update which wasn't officially announced and just showed up like 2 months after it was mentioned on a blog site.

[Kondibon]

But affixing a 60atk is way cheaper than dressing up your character :-PNow if only the affixing system wasn't arcane bullshit. :T

[Zysets]

You can affix 60 attack with just 2 affix slots, that's not difficult. Adding in a good bit of PP and raising that attack to 100+ is where it gets tricky and you're forced to pray to RNGesus

[Kondibon]

You can affix 60 attack with just 2 affix slots, that's not difficult. Adding in a good bit of PP and raising that attack to 100+ is where it gets tricky and you're forced to pray to RNGesusI never said it's hard. But for someone who's new to affixing there's a LOT of shit you have to figure out or read in a guide. I just hate how roundabout it is.

[Zephyrion]

I honestly find the idea of having minimum affixes preposterous :full grind, potentials and max ele already make the bulk of a weapon's power, so just setting those as a requirement is more than enough to me. Not that affixes are unimportant, but I really don't want experts block to go from an incredibly lax requirement to something super restrictive. I do hope they strike the right balance, and I don't think affixes is the thing to look at in this matter. Just an opinion though.

[oratank]

just saw someone use lucky rise unit entire of mama eq on expert block lol

[Atmius]

given what it's supposed to encompass, I imagine it'd be something like: 13* +10 (OT, latent 1 minimum), +30 (NT),, 11* units +10 (affix irrelevant). No doubt this wouldn't stop people from meeting the requirement and then just changing into leech gear, but it's a tad hard to enforce past an entry condition I wager.

[sparab]

just saw someone use lucky rise unit entire of mama eq on expert block lol

What a an ass. I only switch umbra stick and luckyraise units after second cube attack.

Also the "gear requirement" is one of the grinding title. They won't bar you from expert blocks for not grinding that umbra stick/fortune gunslash.

[silo1991]

no wonder why the team is planning that , for some reason people outside of expert blocks don't bother affix or grind the armors because seriously they always die in 1 shot how bad that is , also when i play outside of the EXB i always find at least 3 people dying frequently and im like these fools U_U

[Kondibon]

just saw someone use lucky rise unit entire of mama eq on expert block lolUnless they were dying a lot or running around with a vraolet I don't
REALLY see the problem with that. :T


when i play outside of the EXB i always find at least 3 people dying frequently and im like these fools U_Uhttp://i.imgur.com/IRl6s30.gif

[Moffen]

Make affixing use factors more often for special stuff and some sort of module thingy for everything else, bump the cost up for each one used but remove the whole "you need this many junk to use this affix on this weapon" and the limit of stuff you can use.

Imo if they turned the affixing into that you'd probably see a lot less people with garbage tier gear and the devs wouldnt be so scared to add something difficult here and there.

[ralf542]

For easy affix they could make "special ability factor" power/shoot/stamina/spirita/stamina III for 1-6 star +35 weapons Ability II, Mutation I and maybe Yamato/Mother factor for 7-9 star weapons but I guess pro's would get offended too much.

[Raujinn]

I doubt that, I mean NT grinding made grinding much less of a headache and people still generally don't bother.

[Kondibon]

Make affixing use factors more often for special stuff and some sort of module thingy for everything else, bump the cost up for each one used but remove the whole "you need this many junk to use this affix on this weapon" and the limit of stuff you can use.

Imo if they turned the affixing into that you'd probably see a lot less people with garbage tier gear and the devs wouldnt be so scared to add something difficult here and there.

Personally, my biggest problems with the affixing system are what you said, and the fact that there are affixes that boost other affixes... without telling you, and the requirement.

Honestly I would LOVE seeing the whole affix system revamped into something like the pet candy system, where the main limit is the size and shape of the affixes.


I doubt that, I mean NT grinding made grinding much less of a headache and people still generally don't bother.
I used to not bother at all with 13*s even though I had access to a bunch, and almost never unlocked latent before NT grinding so...

[sparab]

Personally, my biggest problems with the affixing system are what you said, and the fact that there are affixes that boost other affixes... without telling you, and the requirement.

Honestly I would LOVE seeing the whole affix system revamped into something like the pet candy system, where the main limit is the size and shape of the affixes.

Affixing is a science that you have to update once every few month to stay current. I stopped bothering since astral soul became a thing.

Candy box is a savior for lazy people. However the downside is you can't tell what other people have their boxes. For that reason Su is still banned in organized pugs...

[Azure Falcon]

I doubt that, I mean NT grinding made grinding much less of a headache and people still generally don't bother.
NT grinding is worse than original 13* grinding. All you needed to do before was use a grind skip 5, then use 30% boosters up to 10, you'd usually get like 1 failure. It was more expensive, sure, but I'm honestly getting super tired of having to waste my storage on hundreds of Emper Embrace, 30 grind a load of 10/11* NT fodder weapons by feeding them with EE junk, waste photon spheres unlocking abilities on the trash fodder and then finally being able to merge it all into the thing I actually want to grind. It takes longer, it requires far more storage and it's obnoxious as hell - if I had the option just to use the old grind method on NT weapons I would.

[sparab]

NT grinding is worse than original 13* grinding. All you needed to do before was use a grind skip 5, then use 30% boosters up to 10, you'd usually get like 1 failure. It was more expensive, sure, but I'm honestly getting super tired of having to waste my storage on hundreds of Emper Embrace, 30 grind a load of 10/11* NT fodder weapons by feeding them with EE junk, waste photon spheres unlocking abilities on the trash fodder and then finally being able to merge it all into the thing I actually want to grind. It takes longer, it requires far more storage and it's obnoxious as hell - if I had the option just to use the old grind method on NT weapons I would.

All you need to 30 a *13 NT are 4 *12 NT weapons at the following grind level:

26
28 (use with great success 100%)
30+5 (use with great success 100%)

If you play seasonal EQ *12 fodder should not be an issue. I don't see why some would prefer the old grinding system instead of +30 NT *13 in 5 seconds...
You may not save much meseta comparing to old grinding but it sure saves loads of ramda grinder and cubes.

[Kondibon]

30 grind a load of 10/11* NT fodder weapons by feeding them with EE junk, waste photon spheres unlocking abilities on the trash fodder and then finally being able to merge it all into the thing I actually want to grind. It takes longer, it requires far more storage and it's obnoxious as hell - if I had the option just to use the old grind method on NT weapons I would.I'd like to point out that this is the most inefficient way to use 10* fodders for grinding, just use the hundreds of pre-grinded dio 10*s you get from eqs to make +20 fodders. Emper embrace is a waste for fodder weapons.

[Asellus]

So many great topic points from the community, I would use quotes but I'd end up quoting just about everyone.

In my opinion greater block restrictions are long overdue, and possibly not enough. Personally I want to see an item level requirement implemented like in FF or TERA. Basically a player would have to meet an item level minimum in order to join an mpa/party. An item level minimum would be effective against stopping shite like this...

Lucky for him, a burden on the rest of the mpa... (Necky EQ)
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161123_060051_003.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161123_060051_003.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Facedesk... (another Necky EQ)
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161119_042246_002.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161119_042246_002.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Power III was too costly to affix, better go with the blow resist instead...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161118_202108_000.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161118_202108_000.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

SHAME. (pause) SHAME. (pause) SHAME... (notice the time, that's a 14 min. run with a level 3 ARKS boost)
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061623_001.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061623_001.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Affixing? 75/75 is good enough, roll... (notice the time)
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161122_075108_002.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161122_075108_002.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Units were equally shit...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161119_042400_003.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161119_042400_003.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Lambda grinders? Huh?
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_063416_010.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_063416_010.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

OMG FFS.
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161231_101219_013.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161231_101219_013.png.html)[/spoiler-box]


The PSO2 team needs the figure out a way to prevent this from happening. It's frustrating to play in an mpa with scrub players because the most likely outcome is failure or a long drawn-out battle with a shit ranking.

DPS is important and affixing lends to that fact. Affixing = power, power = speed. I imagine that everyone wants the fastest most efficient run possible and people like the above aforementioned just drag down the mpa. I'm not saying that everyone needs to have 8 slotted gear but ffs there needs to be a bare-minimum standard on gear, being a level 75/75 isn't enough. "Thank you PSO2 team for rewarding our efforts by making us carry the scrubs."

At some point we've all worn shit gear, not properly affixed because we all start the game in the same manner. But sooner (hopefully) than later players see that grinding and affixing matters and get with the program.

[Raujinn]

Except affixing contributes the least to your overall attack power. Grinding to +30 at least and having 50/60 element and a good skill tree is far more important. You at least want grinded units and some attack, but its much less of a deal than your weapon nowadays.

[red1228]

If you're running Extra Hard / Ultimate difficulty Quests (and thus, probably Lv75/75), you need to get your act together.
In the case of players with really new IDs that power leveled WAY TOO DAMN FAST from LQs and EQs, you need to drop that early 2000's MMO mindset that Character Level = strength / toughness and actually learn how to play THIS game.

Melee needs to learn to block & dodge (you WILL run out of healing items if you just facetank with Automate 100% of the time).
Ranged classes need to learn WHEN & WHERE to attack (not spam One Point / Parallel Slider-0 all day or repeatedly using Elder Rebellion on trash mobs that some dumbass Bouncer used three Heavenly Kites on).
Tech Classes need to remember WTF support techniques are, DURING a quest (not just an uncharged Lv2 Shifta at the teleporter). Yes, this game is heavily DPS-Focused. But it is really sad when the Hunter / Fighter user cures more Stunned / Frozen MPA members than the Forces & Techers who should have Anti on their hotbar (main or sub, Techers benefit from curing status effects!).
Don't even get me started on the number of Moon Atomizers I go through each quest, cuz you 600 HP / 200 PP glass cannon builds were too busy greedily spamming the attack button...

And as others have said, your gear needs to show that you've the mindset for end game content: Atleast 3slot your gear (something like Mizer Soul / Shoot III / Spirita III, for example). It's very cheap for a basic setup like that & it shows that you're atleast trying (not expecting to be carried by the other 11 players in the Quest). If your weapon is "Old Type", then unlock its potential to atleast Lv1 and +10 its grinds. If its "NT or new type", +30 that thing, Right Now. Max the element (50% ~ 60%), because that is straight multiplier for damage.

[milranduil]

IMax the element (50% ~ 60%), because that is straight multiplier for damage.

I find it highly annoying when people like you lecture others then don't know what you are talking about still. Weapon % is not a direct multiplier to damage, it multiplies your attack. So while still very important, it is not as big as you think it is.

[ZerotakerZX]

Melee needs to learn to block & dodge (you WILL run out of healing items if you just facetank with Automate 100% of the time).
I dunno, my delayed reflexes makes my dodging useless, but I'm making it fine :D
Otherwise, you've made some good points.

[Zysets]

Something I've seen used in some organized MPAs is that you have to have at least +60 attack on your weapons affixed to be part of the MPA, which is easy to do and is great when compared to crap affixes. I think that's a decent requirement, however of course not up to par for end level play, but it's enough to get people to at least try affixing and learn how to affix, which is an issue I've seen. I know people who had no idea how affixing worked despite having played for a good while and being 75/75. I think a minimum and fair requirement would at least promote the idea of learning how to do it.

[ArcaneTechs]

And as others have said, your gear needs to show that you've the mindset for end game content: Atleast 3slot your gear (something like Mizer Soul / Shoot III / Spirita III, for example). It's very cheap for a basic setup like that & it shows that you're atleast trying (not expecting to be carried by the other 11 players in the Quest). If your weapon is "Old Type", then unlock its potential to atleast Lv1 and +10 its grinds. If its "NT or new type", +30 that thing, Right Now. Max the element (50% ~ 60%), because that is straight multiplier for damage.
I really wish you (and others) would stop pushing these old 2012-2013 affixes already because people continue with this followed by thinking this is an affix meta (don't bs me with Budget builds when your clearly up-to-date on Phasion). Theres an affix simulator out there for people to learn and mess around with that it becomes 2nd hand knowledge.

Seeing: Quartz,Pow3,Spirita3 was ok back then, understandable on new players but seeing this still in XH/UQ builds with Ex2 units (whether it's Hiei or Saiki or anything) is just tiresome.

I mentioned before, 100 atk on units is not a wallet destroyer, easily doable within a 10-15mill budget (varying on what your going for and market prices) for all 3 of your units.

Example build: Soul/Atk4/Flict/Fever ( 100/8 ), not hard to do and cheap but thats just something basic to get by until you get into the 150/9 area

Seeing Gryphon,All Resist, Blow Resist, Ability3 and whatever else is just pure trash especially on good units (Austere for example)

Running some UQ today even to finish off some Gix CS's I had and seeing someone in the mpa complain about how we can't manage a 6min run when this guy is:

FI/BO
Gix Daggers +17---22% Ele
Ideal Unit +0 (default)
Gix Arm +0 (default)
Double Leg +0 (bought straight off the market, possibly dropped)

At least 40mill in Accessories/LA's he liked to showboat before every run.

Heck maybe Sega needs to add an in-game affix simulator or something to get people to learn or something, this stuff is not hard whatsoever especially with an English Sim ready to go at any time

End rant, I welcome these new Req's with open arms

[red1228]

-Nitpicking & grasping at straws, completely missing the actual point of my post-.
Ok.


"I make millions of meseta each day because I spent a lot of real world money on Alternate characters and/or AC scratches and have way too much free time to religiously farm in this game... Screw the social aspects of this game entirely, tryhard grinding ftw!."
The second half of your [original] post I'm actually agreeing with. But you're too busy trying to sound superior with your statement of 100-150 attack affixes being a requirement in this game. They are not.
All my characters only have 70 - 100 attack affixes (in addition to HP or PP affixes mixed in) and yet I surpass in DPS contribution (while staying alive at that) other PuG / Random players that have 100-175 attack affixes on their gear. I'm not even a great player. I know of atleast two team-fulls of players (as in, I've actually seen, not just heard someone spouting off numbers) that are both better geared & better skilled than me.

That Fighter/Bouncer with the not-even-half-finished Gix Daggers and completely-fresh-off-the-floor units you were complaining about? That was my point too! Why are you looking for a fight when we both want the same goal of players to step up their game to acceptable levels in the current End Game?

[Dephinix]

I think a minimum and fair requirement would at least promote the idea of learning how to do it.

Definitely wish this was a thing. Give some kind of meaningful reward to affixing. Give a decent reward for first 3 slot soul affix, and so on.


I really wish you (and others) would stop pushing these old 2012-2013 affixes already because people continue with this followed by thinking this is an affix meta (don't bs me with Budget builds when your clearly up-to-date on Phasion). Theres an affix simulator out there for people to learn and mess around with that it becomes 2nd hand knowledge.

When said 60-100 attack affixes are beating people with 205 attack per unit, I don't think it's that big of a deal :wacko:
There is an affix simulator out there, but really, not everyone is that into this game. Kinda pointless to bring up, they don't care enough to begin with, the simulator doesn't exist for them, unless of course, there was some sort of reward system.

[otakun]

To all you people bitching about PUG MPAs sucking, then maybe you all should utilize a system pso2 has added a long time ago to prevent this and ... join a team. People complain about how useless it is being in a team when if you were in a team with minimal gear requirements then got people who are also annoyed with shitty MPAs and do them as a team instead of sticking in your 2 to 10 member teams or your dead teams complaining how pointless they are.

[oratank]

i always got time to check some of mpa gears in mother eq.saw 4-5 people are at 70atk gears and we still can kill mother in under 14 min :p

[ArcaneTechs]

Ok.


The second half of your [original] post I'm actually agreeing with. But you're too busy trying to sound superior with your statement of 100-150 attack affixes being a requirement in this game. They are not.
All my characters only have 70 - 100 attack affixes (in addition to HP or PP affixes mixed in) and yet I surpass in DPS contribution (while staying alive at that) other PuG / Random players that have 100-175 attack affixes on their gear. I'm not even a great player. I know of atleast two team-fulls of players (as in, I've actually seen, not just heard someone spouting off numbers) that are both better geared & better skilled than me.

That Fighter/Bouncer with the not-even-half-finished Gix Daggers and completely-fresh-off-the-floor units you were complaining about? That was my point too! Why are you looking for a fight when we both want the same goal of players to step up their game to acceptable levels in the current End Game?
just a heads up i rarely play the AC scratches

looking for a fight with ill-prepared people? bro idk if you know but when your end game your suppose to have somewhat up to par gear to get that end game gear, not run XH/UQ with your "just got this dropped straight out of PD!!" 11* weapon (or 12* nox). At least show your trying because having gear like this just means you dont care, please carry me senpai

To all you people bitching about PUG MPAs sucking, then maybe you all should utilize a system pso2 has added a long time ago to prevent this and ... join a team. People complain about how useless it is being in a team when if you were in a team with minimal gear requirements then got people who are also annoyed with shitty MPAs and do them as a team instead of sticking in your 2 to 10 member teams or your dead teams complaining how pointless they are.
hey buddy, not everyone on a team wants to run UQ, Mod farm for hours, Flict farm for hours, VH/SHAQ for hours etc so whats the only alternative? run with randoms

i always got time to check some of mpa gears in mother eq.saw 4-5 people are at 70atk gears and we still can kill mother in under 14 min :p
really hard to find a pug run able to manage this EQ in at least 10mins, 15-18 sorta getting old since she does the same thing over and over. Org runs doing under 5mins, just a blessing

[red1228]

just a heads up i rarely play the AC scratches

looking for a fight with ill-prepared people? bro idk if you know but when your end game your suppose to have somewhat up to par gear to get that end game gear, not run XH/UQ with your "just got this dropped straight out of PD!!" 11* weapon (or 12* nox). At least show your trying because having gear like this just means you dont care, please carry me senpai...
Did... did you not even read what I posted? Twice in fact?

I'm actually agreeing with--- :nono:
Nevermind, I'm out. Keep it classy PSO-World.

[ArcaneTechs]

Did... did you not even read what I posted? Twice in fact?

I'm actually agreeing with--- :nono:
Nevermind, I'm out. Keep it classy PSO-World.
its late, sorta on a tangent, i dont represent psow either. stick to leddit???

replied to certain parts of your posts but i did read it

[otakun]

hey buddy, not everyone on a team wants to run UQ, Mod farm for hours, Flict farm for hours, VH/SHAQ for hours etc so whats the only alternative? run with randoms

Mod farming isn't an MPA, Flict farming isn't an MPA, AQs are not MPAs and my team had plenty of people who wanted to do UQs while they were relevant. So, your post hasn't made one single relevant point. The issue was people complaining about MPAs and there are quite a few teams out there that seek players to do team MPAs with but people would rather stick to PUGs and bitch how much they suck. God forbid people put in a little effort to having an easier time for MPAs.

[Dugs]

I mentioned before, 100 atk on units is not a wallet destroyer, easily doable within a 10-15mill budget (varying on what your going for and market prices) for all 3 of your units.


How about a 1 mil budget.

[oratank]

up slot 3 to 4 with 88% mod cost around 2m
app mod atk spi

[GHNeko]

:popcorn:


Gotta love this place.

[Kondibon]

This thread is literally making me sick now. Like. I'm actually getting a stomach ache from reading it.

[rsod]

You guys discussing about affixing, budgets and so.. that's not problem.
Let me tell you the problem.
The problem is affixing itself. It's too messy. Nobody wants to spend hours and hours on affixing simulator to figure out recipe. Well, some people do that but very few. I tried, honestly, but after spending a hour trying to figure out 4 slot affix I just gave up and never going to do that again. Thankfully a player on my team gave me a step by step recipe how to do it, and I can have now at least basic affixes.

If you want people to do affixing, make a guides. Step by step guides, starting from which fodders to buy, starting from 1 slot. That's I'm pretty sure will help a lot.

[ZerotakerZX]

This thread is literally making me sick now. Like. I'm actually getting a stomach ache from reading it.

I feel fine and I'm a coddle. Might by just a coincedence.

You guys discussing about affixing, budgets and so.. that's not problem.
Let me tell you the problem.
The problem is affixing itself. It's too messy. Nobody wants to spend hours and hours on affixing simulator to figure out recipe. Well, some people do that but very few. I tried, honestly, but after spending a hour trying to figure out 4 slot affix I just gave up and never going to do that again. Thankfully a player on my team gave me a step by step recipe how to do it, and I can have now at least basic affixes.

If you want people to do affixing, make a guides. Step by step guides, starting from which fodders to buy, starting from 1 slot. That's I'm pretty sure will help a lot.

I dunno. Good recipes are not that hard to figure out with some interest and enjoyment. But if you want BEST recipes, you can always just ask, like you did. Its RPG game. sorta. So planning is part of fun.

[milranduil]

You guys discussing about affixing, budgets and so.. that's not problem.
Let me tell you the problem.
The problem is affixing itself. It's too messy. Nobody wants to spend hours and hours on affixing simulator to figure out recipe. Well, some people do that but very few. I tried, honestly, but after spending a hour trying to figure out 4 slot affix I just gave up and never going to do that again. Thankfully a player on my team gave me a step by step recipe how to do it, and I can have now at least basic affixes.

If you want people to do affixing, make a guides. Step by step guides, starting from which fodders to buy, starting from 1 slot. That's I'm pretty sure will help a lot.

there is already an affix guide in the guides section. it's enough to teach you the basics of how the system works and gives you example affixes from beginners to 4s. beyond that, you need to do your homework and figure out more "complicated" affixes yourself (they aren't that complicated unless you're doing like astral or returner)

[rsod]

I feel fine and I'm a coddle. Might by just a coincedence.


I dunno. Good recipes are not that hard to figure out with some interest and enjoyment. But if you want BEST recipes, you can always just ask, like you did. Its RPG game. sorta. So planning is part of fun.

"Hey dude, you need to affix your gear" - "Hmm but how do I do that?" - "Well... yeah... there is a simulator (link)... and messy guide... (link)... spend like 10 hours and you'll figure it out"
"Hey dude, you need to affix your gear" - "Hmm but how do I do that?" - "There are recipes on a forum: (link) just pick one that you can afford and do it!"

in which scenery a player will most likely end up affixing gear?

[Kondibon]

I feel fine and I'm a coddle. Might by just a coincedence.
That was a joke.

there is already an affix guide in the guides section. it's enough to teach you the basics of how the system works and gives you example affixes from beginners to 4s. beyond that, you need to do your homework and figure out more "complicated" affixes yourself (they aren't that complicated unless you're doing like astral or returner)
The fact that there needs to be a guide for it at all is pretty ridiculous. :/ Every other game I play it's simply a matter of putting the thing you need in the slot. There's not actual REASON for affixing to be as complicated as it is.

[SteveCZ]

Honestly the affixing system is very flexible for everyone. You'll get the best one only if you try harder, but you still can affix something if you don't. It's fair to me.

Affixing is hard only when people around you forces you to make +230/+190 ATK with or without timed abilities if it's a unit. There's always a journey to get to a better affix. It's not a one day thing. Some even wait for 5%/10% affix bonus for the joy and glory of it, and such event does not happen every month.


Every other game I play it's simply a matter of putting the thing you need in the slot.

That's the problem. When there's something more than that, some may claim it's too hard and therefore it's a game design problem. It's subjective, really.

[ZerotakerZX]

"Hey dude, you need to affix your gear" - "Hmm but how do I do that?" - "Well... yeah... there is a simulator (link)... and messy guide... (link)... spend like 10 hours and you'll figure it out"
"Hey dude, you need to affix your gear" - "Hmm but how do I do that?" - "There are recipes on a forum: (link) just pick one that you can afford and do it!"

in which scenery a player will most likely end up affixing gear?

I asked only once I had 2nd scenario. Been asked myself several times and made 2nd scenatio happen. But I guess I can see the point anyway.

That was a joke.
I could not tell. Looked serious to me.

[Kondibon]

That's the problem. When there's something more than that, some may claim it's too hard and therefore it's a game design problem. It's subjective, really.It's not just a matter of difficulty, it doesn't even add anything to the game.

[NightfallG]

It's not just a matter of difficulty, it doesn't even add anything to the game.

This is a game that poorly explains how its systems work so you have to pay to respec skill trees ffs. The affix system being somewhat unwieldy/arcane is just a matter of fact.

E: Hell, they made quality of life changes like the forward s-roll a skill ring that ties into a microtransaction stamina mechanic, just as another example. Everything about this is designed to extract cash in some way.

[Alenoir]

This is a game that poorly explains how its systems work so you have to pay to respec skill trees ffs. The affix system being somewhat unwieldy/arcane is just a matter of fact.

E: Hell, they made quality of life changes like the forward s-roll a skill ring that ties into a microtransaction stamina mechanic, just as another example. Everything about this is designed to extract cash in some way.

All the "Even A Rappy Can Understand" guides were made for a reason. Just because no one in the English community bothered to go through and sub them doesn't mean they don't exists. Have fun. (http://pso2.jp/players/gameguide/progress/)

[GHNeko]

The game has internally had guides for the basic things for ages now. It just that without knowing the language, it's impossible to figure shit out.

That being said, there are aspects about the game that are more obtuse than Sega prob wants which is why they've been putting out extra content to help their target demographic learn how to play the game.

[Moffen]

This is a game that poorly explains how its systems work so you have to pay to respec skill trees ffs. The affix system being somewhat unwieldy/arcane is just a matter of fact.

E: Hell, they made quality of life changes like the forward s-roll a skill ring that ties into a microtransaction stamina mechanic, just as another example. Everything about this is designed to extract cash in some way.

You have three free characters,SG is super easy to get for resets,you can buy drinks that fill the gauge from shirona.
gather moar m8.

[isCasted]

As someone who's in progress of affixing 5s to a bunch of Astra weapons I can say this: I like deep mechanics that reward additional thinking, but:

1) Economy in this game sucks. Fodder prices fluctuate a lot (Flict Arma 3s weapons jump between 20k and 200k, for example), and farming them yourself is a fucking chore. It's always pure luck, and can't be optimized in any way other than killing shit faster. When you farm Mod or Flict, at some point you just reach a level where you either just want to sleep or it takes more time to walk than to actually fight (because most farming happens on VH difficulty, and picking stronger fights only slows you down). Add Special Ability items are insanely expensive, and they come from AC Scratch. Attack Transfer is an SG item, you can't even buy that one. Soul/Ext Receptor? Market will be more and more filled with 10-12* items as you try to find higher slot counts. Don't even get me started on P2W garbage that is PSO2es.

2) You can rarely reach all 100% for reasonable costs. The fact that boost weeks are necessary to max so many types of affixes is inexcusable.

3) For just little improvements costs go up and rates go down exponentially. You need multiple copies of same affix for each step you carry it through, so you need a ton of duplicate fodders. Upslotting reduces rates to insane levels as you go upwards.

4) Units are much more rare and expensive compared to weapons, they have smaller affix pool and they can't drop untekked.

5) As it's been mentioned before many times, there's nothing in the game itself to help you out with it. What if nobody ever decided to make a simulator? Why does one need it in the first place? Why do I have to browse a shit ton of wiki pages just to know what to buy when I already know what I want on my weapon? Could I at least have a [?] button near each affix when I'm at Dudu so it'd tell me what it boosts, what boosts it or what I can create out of combining it with other affixes?

6) SAFs are bullshit. You run a CF 6 times (I hadn't had patience to +35 any weapon I used before Astra. Now, when their CFs have expired, what the fuck do I do? What the fuck do new players do?) and waste 4-6 million meseta afterwards just to trash it. At least they are 100%, but at what cost?

Hey, I want to do my best to improve, but these repetitive frustrating RNG processes are not helping in the slightest. I want to have fun improving my character just like I do improving myself, you know? Winning a Dudu lottery is not a sign of either skill or dedication.

[Zysets]

This is a game that poorly explains how its systems work so you have to pay to respec skill trees ffs. The affix system being somewhat unwieldy/arcane is just a matter of fact.

E: Hell, they made quality of life changes like the forward s-roll a skill ring that ties into a microtransaction stamina mechanic, just as another example. Everything about this is designed to extract cash in some way.

There's no reason to ever pay for stamina, honestly. You can buy cuisines from the shop now, and even before they were super easy to make, and using the right cuisines makes your chances of getting the items you want from gathering super easy. Even ignoring cuisine for a minute, they give out SG like it's nothing, I've made several thousand SG since they first implemented it, and I've never gotten first in a league.

[Kondibon]

SG is super easy to get for resets

You can reset your skill trees with SG? ._.

[Moffen]

You can reset your skill trees with SG? ._.

I meant for CF,whoops D:

SG skill tree sets would be nice though...
100 SG or for a full reset would be great lol,

[Asellus]

Let's say that I'm a team oriented, team playing social gamer. I'm most likely going to have less than optimal or even sub-par gear. My reason for playing is to have fun, and in the company of others I won't need to try as hard. Conversely, let's say that I'm a hardcore solo player. I'm going to do everything possible to boost my DPS as high as I can so that I'm able to plow through mobs effortlessly, and for this gamer profile affixing makes a huge difference. Everyone's play style is different and that's really what it comes down to.

But goddamn it if I have to run another EQ with a player like this...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061623_001.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061623_001.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Perfect example of someone getting carried. If players like the one pictured here had to play with others of their caliber, I can only assume that they would make it a point to improve. Greater block restrictions may just be beneficial for everyone.

[Masu]

You have spotted nothing imho...I guess this player switched to those jb because lucky rise III on it...My 2cents

[nguuuquaaa]

Looking at the three +10 units I say he switched to that JB for the Lucky Rise. I mean, who wouldn't at the end of every raid EQ?
99% you'll see me holding Umbla Stick at THAT exact location.

[GHNeko]

Yeah. You'll never catch me using my normal weapon right after a raid boss.

Upon 2nd and closer inspection, some of those screenshots dont speak the whole picture and would need more information.

Like for example;

3rd screenshot. The guy has +20 rings and on top of that warbreaker pot. Those things have +60% to part breaking. It's already strong as fuck so its really not a huge problem that it specifically is unaffixed, so really i wouldn't even trip unless he has shit damage, which you cant tell mid quest unless you're focusing more on that shit and then the quest (or you're parsing). He has 4s crafted saiki units as well. Good chance that that niren orchi is not his only weapon and he only uses for part breaks as he should. That 1.6x damage on top of a reasonably built bohu will do 95% of the work anyways.


4th screenshot. Already been pointed that he could have just switched post quest. Pre-teleporter and post-boss screenshots dont really tell the whole story.


Last screenshot. This one, i'd have to actually see the class for. these jbs are used by zanverse slaves, in which case, you dont really need affixes since zanverse is doing all the work for you. all affixes would do boost your shitty moment gale damage a tad.

The screenshots you've posted in the context don't telll the whole story and can throw shade on your argument and make it look like you don't even know how players play the game because of how you've presented the screenshots.

2nd screenshot has me feeling some type of way cuz like the units clearly have been affixed, but idk with what. they're not crafted, but that's not *bad* or anything. the boost slayer tho is super suspect and i have no clue why he would be using it. BUUUT like I said, not enough information is being provided and it's still pre-quest start so he legit could switch rings or come back from just using it. I don't know lol.


Everything else is ???????? tho lmao

[Zysets]

Honestly with a requirement related to weapons, I imagine it'll be another title anyways. Just to make sure you have a fully grinded weapon/units and maybe tried affixing. It would be ridiculous to have the block check your current main weapon or something considering we can have so many weapons in our inventories, and not every weapon is used for damage, for example I use Orbit Knuckles for idle PP regen only.

[otakun]

They nerfed 13* drops with CFs.
They nerfed grinding weapons with the NT system.
Why wont they nerf the affix system? - you can say the special factor system is a nerf but imo, it sucks. Its just an excuse for people to waste their +35 13*s.

[ZerotakerZX]

They nerfed 13* drops with CFs.
They nerfed grinding weapons with the NT system.
Why wont they nerf the affix system? - you can say the special factor system is a nerf but imo, it sucks. Its just an excuse for people to waste their +35 13*s.

why 'waste'? I mean if you base 13* had good factor you can just unlock it and be happy

[Kondibon]

Why wont they nerf the affix system? - you can say the special factor system is a nerf but imo, it sucks. Its just an excuse for people to waste their +35 13*s.You can put the affix factor on the weapon itself as far as I know, but I agree that isn't enough.

[Asellus]

You have spotted nothing imho...I guess this player switched to those jb because lucky rise III on it...My 2cents

That thought had crossed my mind and I apologize for not providing more evidence to lend to my point...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061626_002.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061626_002.png.html)[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061627_003.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061627_003.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Needless to say that those affixes are trash. That's a level 3 ARKS boost (notice the time). PD runs normally take about 8 minutes w/o an ARKS boost. Let's say that this person did just use that weapon as a switch over for lucky boost, why wouldn't they just use Umbra staff or something with temptation on it? Umbra staff, even with lucky I is dirt cheap, and they're easy to get.

[Kondibon]

Let's say that this person did just use that weapon as a switch over for lucky boost, why wouldn't they just use Umbra staff or something with temptation on it? Umbra staff, even with lucky I is dirt cheap, and they're easy to get.If you don't have premium you can't buy them.

[Vatallus]

I guess as long as you are using the Lucky Rise Units and/or Umbra Stick before the boss dies, but I like it more when I get to watch everyone switch to Umbra Sticks after the boss dies.

[Flaoc]

umbla stick is just placebo honestly glad i sold lr3 before it got cheap

[Kondibon]

umbla stick is just placebo honestly glad i sold lr3 before it got cheapEh, I've noticed the difference with a lot of stuff. I definately think it's not worth the hassle for a raid boss though.

[nguuuquaaa]

Lucky Rise units are not worth, but Umbla Stick really make a difference. Well, since I'm playing as a Zanverse bot it doesn't really matter too much at the end anyway :wacko:

[Masu]

That thought had crossed my mind and I apologize for not providing more evidence to lend to my point...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061626_002.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061626_002.png.html)[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061627_003.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061627_003.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Needless to say that those affixes are trash. That's a level 3 ARKS boost (notice the time). PD runs normally take about 8 minutes w/o an ARKS boost. Let's say that this person did just use that weapon as a switch over for lucky boost, why wouldn't they just use Umbra staff or something with temptation on it? Umbra staff, even with lucky I is dirt cheap, and they're easy to get.

I ear you there, I've just pointed the LRIII because sometime it's easy to miss the obvious. Now to play devil's advocate you can notice his/her parts are not 20m worth too. I can't help but think those jb were switched at crystal still. I think it's an exact example of what is called a casual and not really a leecher. Now the hell this player is doing in "pro" block? Ask segabakasama™ ^^

[arokidaaron]

It's funny how there are those people that think affix = skill. I mean, it's ok to have decent affix, but affixes don't tell how good the players is. Grinding is what's more important as well as the element.

[nguuuquaaa]

That thought had crossed my mind and I apologize for not providing more evidence to lend to my point...
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061626_002.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061626_002.png.html)[/spoiler-box]
[spoiler-box]http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/ChimeraFO/pso20161116_061627_003.png (http://s871.photobucket.com/user/ChimeraFO/media/pso20161116_061627_003.png.html)[/spoiler-box]

Needless to say that those affixes are trash. That's a level 3 ARKS boost (notice the time). PD runs normally take about 8 minutes w/o an ARKS boost. Let's say that this person did just use that weapon as a switch over for lucky boost, why wouldn't they just use Umbra staff or something with temptation on it? Umbra staff, even with lucky I is dirt cheap, and they're easy to get.

Haven't seen this post till now but I'd like to point out he properly +10 all three of his units. This is more important than affixing.
Then the next thing, his Double unit has Gryphon Soul, mean he did touch affixing, albeit not much. You don't know how long he's been playing this game, so there a high chance he's learning or he's lacking money.

[Kondibon]

It's funny how there are those people that think affix = skill. I mean, it's ok to have decent affix, but affixes don't tell how good the players is.I keep trying to tell people this but no one believes me. 3:

[Zephyrion]

It's funny how there are those people that think affix = skill. I mean, it's ok to have decent affix, but affixes don't tell how good the players is. Grinding is what's more important as well as the element.

Amen. People seem to look at affixes thinking they make you godlike, where in reality, they are just ways for you to adjust your equipment to your needs, or just have fun. If you exclude TAs and other form of speedruns (because here the few % damage you can squeeze or how big your PP pool can greatly improve you runs), affixes are pretty much only that

[Kondibon]

Where's that damage calculator? I wanna check something.

[final_attack]

Where's that damage calculator? I wanna check something.

This? (http://4rt.info/psod/)

[sparab]

I wonder if it is justified for full support Te to carry umbra stick and luckyrise units during the entire EQ?
Or a 20% MPA damage contributor switches to such set and hide in a corner after mother's 2nd cube phrase?

[Evangelion X.XX]

I believe it's justified, although others will misunderstand though...

Edit:

Misunderstand as in thinking the said person is a leech, and not misunderstand as in the said person wants some goodies.

[Zysets]

It's funny how there are those people that think affix = skill. I mean, it's ok to have decent affix, but affixes don't tell how good the players is. Grinding is what's more important as well as the element.

I don't think affixing shows skill, but I feel like at least knowing how to take advantage of an affix is knowledge everyone should have. Like I don't expect everyone to have 150 attack and 12 pp or something, but just knowing that they've done a quick 4 slot to boost their PP a bit or added some defense if they have an issue with taking hits shows they know what they want to do and what benefits them as a player.

A grinded weapons at max element and just knowing how to play your class is definitely what makes someone skilled moreso than affixes, I agree with that.

[aiMute]

Having at least some shitty 80/10 affix is like saying "I'm willing to contribute/I'm not a fucking leech". If it's too much then why join expert block? Join other people who don't want to invest into the game and run with them, not like you can lose in this game. Same with soloXQ1 1-5 as it requires just basic understanding of class, it's too a part of "expert exam".

[Kondibon]

Thinking on it, the biggest problem with the affix system is the upkeep of maintaining existing affixes. Every time you affix you HAVE to do everything at once.

unrelated:

Hue
[spoiler-box]http://puu.sh/tkUdx/02e3abfd36.jpg
http://puu.sh/tkUlL/f927029c6f.jpg
http://puu.sh/tkUnN/83534b1094.jpg[/spoiler-box]

[nguuuquaaa]

I love affixi....

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/B5j7P4s.png[[/spoiler-box]

On a second thought, no. :wacko:

[NightfallG]

Thinking on it, the biggest problem with the affix system is the upkeep of maintaining existing affixes. Every time you affix you HAVE to do everything at once.

On top of that, doesn't rebuilding an affix set require you to also use extra materials for the existing affixes just to keep them on there? Iirc it does, and that's just obnoxious.

[Kondibon]

On top of that, doesn't rebuilding an affix set require you to also use extra materials for the existing affixes just to keep them on there? Iirc it does, and that's just obnoxious.That's what I meant by the upkeep and having to do everything at once.

[Kondibon]

So I was messing around with the damage calculator a bit and had some things to say.
http://i.imgur.com/R0InM0x.png
First of all, the devs already said a while ago that XH content is balanced around 12*s, that was before or right after NT weapons came, and around when red weapons got buffed so I'd consider something within the range of the green box to be what they meant, and as far as I can tell that's still the case.

The red box is the the difference between having random +15-35 ish atk affixes per unit+weapon, vs +100 per unit and weapon. Right below that is the same weapon, but with no damage affixes at all. Compare that to the gap between an grinded and grinded weapon, or a 20 element vs 60 element weapon. The cost effectiveness is nonsense, and assuming the green range is what the game is balanced around, it's the least cost effective thing you could do to actually comfortably complete the content. If you're actually min-maxing to do lowman speed runs then it's worth it, but for your average player you'd basically be spending 2-4x the amount you did grinding your gear for barely a 10% damage boost, that in most cases is overkill anyway.

EDIT: This is bullshit. I'm supposed to be working on my Summoner guide. orz

[Keilyn]

@Kondibon
I do a lot of math in my head.

The damage between those with average 12* weapons and your top weapon there is 1.67 (if you divide the averages of the two weapons). You are counting units too, so this being said. It appears as though 3 endgame players deal the damage that 5 players with average 12* would deal. Am I right or wrong?

I got that from
872/522 = 1.67
I then converted this to the fraction 5/3
Then multiplied by 3 to eliminate the denominator and be left with 5.

From the point of view of a player that reached endgame with a standard 12* weapon, it would mean we invert the fraction to change point of view. He deals 60% of the damage an endgame player with the same build would do. This number is actually less because your numbers assumes that the player is at level cap. This means that if we encounter a player who doesn't have units or weapons affixed and doesn't have a full tree, the damage might be even lower than this comparison of 60%.

I've always told players that the important thing in 13* weapons is to get them to 60% element and fully grinded to have their potentials unlocked. That deals the most damage. Affixes are extra (but shouldn't be ignored). I know players who they go for minimal primary-stat increases in their weapons and go after secondary stat increases (like adding a lot of PP to the weapon itself in order to get more uses of their PAs) They will go for around 50 - 70 Attack Points and then do as much as possible to pump up PP.

This just goes to show how important gear is in making an EQ run go as fast as possible. That is of course if the EQ run doesn't have a limit on max number of runs. If it doesn't then gear is not as important as even beating a run incredibly fast won't get a player a second run there unless of course he or she wants to log into a character on another ship and do the run there too... but I hold my opinion of that being kind of pushing it and greedy.

Though I don't like the damage calculator at all...
Good Job on working with the data itself.

[Moffen]

I love affixi....

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/B5j7P4s.png[[/spoiler-box]

On a second thought, no. :wacko:

On an elegant boost too...
dude props to you for not playing the violin on your wrists with a saw,becauseI certainly would have.

[SteveCZ]

I love affixi....

[spoiler-box]http://i.imgur.com/B5j7P4s.png[[/spoiler-box]

On a second thought, no. :wacko:

Affixing 101: Don't gamble on final affix. Gamble on fodders.

[pkemr4]

more like stop upsloting in 2017

[Saagonsa]

Saying that current XH content is balanced around 12*s isn't really super accurate right now. Mother is probably the biggest example of this, since the damage required to 1pass her arms phases is way too high to be balanced around anything other than the majority of the MPA if not everyone in the MPA having 13* weapons.

[GHNeko]

Prob more accurate to say that a majority of content in XH is balanced aroudn 12*s.

Also you could also say that Mother EQ on XH takes 60 mins to beat with 12*s.

PSTeam's intentions are vague at best when it comes to how we should understand them.

[SteveCZ]

more like stop upsloting in 2017

Bad advice. Upslotting is always relevant at anytime when it comes to reduce cost and/or hunt hours. Of course, if one do it right, they don't need to gamble. :)

[Xaelouse]

Saying that current XH content is balanced around 12*s isn't really super accurate right now. Mother is probably the biggest example of this, since the damage required to 1pass her arms phases is way too high to be balanced around anything other than the majority of the MPA if not everyone in the MPA having 13* weapons.

I'd imagine the arm phases being easy to pass with 12*s when you just abuse chain and zanverse anyway

[Zysets]

Prob more accurate to say that a majority of content in XH is balanced aroudn 12*s.

Also you could also say that Mother EQ on XH takes 60 mins to beat with 12*s.

PSTeam's intentions are vague at best when it comes to how we should understand them.

I think the best way to put it is that most XH content was balanced around 12*, but now that 13* is way more common and 14* weapons are starting to pop up, they've bumped the difficulty a bit for newer content.

[Kondibon]

You guys are all misunderstanding me. I'm trying to say that If 12 players with 12* gear can theoretically complete the EQ (yes, it's obviously going to take longer, and no one would WANT to do it that way) then 12 players doing 2-5x as much damage aren't losing much by doing ~10% less than they would with the affixes. Obviously if the players using 12*s want to upgrade then getting a better weapon would be better, but that last bit of attack from the affixes is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. It's not useless, just not something I would consider a required standard for players to not be "leeches". Grinding your weapon and its element and getting better weapons are more important, and by the time you're done with that going all out on damage affixes isn't worth it unless you're aiming for organized speed runs, but why would you be PUGGING for that?

I basically just included the 12*s as a point of reference for how weak they seem to expect people to be based on what I've seen.


I think the best way to put it is that most XH content was balanced around 12*, but now that 13* is way more common and 14* weapons are starting to pop up, they've bumped the difficulty a bit for newer content.I don't think we're quite at that point point yet. I should have said high end 12*s and low end 13*s though since most people don't seem to realize most of the nox weapons are better than the current Xie weapons in terms of raw damage in most situations. :wacko:

[Selphea]

The current Xies are Ray ATK with 10% base damage with an additional 10% Chase aren't they? That's pretty much the best Xie series in history o.o

[Flaoc]

too bad chase is meh

[Kondibon]

The current Xies are Ray ATK with 10% base damage with an additional 10% Chase aren't they? That's pretty much the best Xie series in history o.oI never said that they're bad for Xie weapons, heck I'd argue they're pretty good in general for stunning bosses, a few of the nox weapons them have stronger (albiet relatively conditional) latents. I just wanted to point out that there's overlap between 12*s and 13*s so the idea that content would be balanced for high end 12*weapons isn't that weird especially with the current Xie 13*s being ok, but not top tier or anything despite basically being 12*s with a cool latent.


too bad chase is mehThey also have a 10% unconditional damage bonus and a huge multiplier to SE rates, if they didn't have those then they'd be garbage for a lot of weapon types. The SE rate bonus is more valuable than the chase damage to be honest. :wacko:

[Selphea]

I never said that they're bad for Xie weapons, heck I'd argue they're pretty good in general for stunning bosses, but the nox weapons have higher base atk, and a few of them have stronger (albiet relatively conditional) latents. I just wanted to point out that there's overlap between 12*s and 13*s so the idea that content would be balanced for high end 12*weapons isn't that weird especially with the current Xie 13*s being ok, but not top tier or anything despite basically being 12*s with a cool latent.

They also have a 10% unconditional damage bonus and a huge multiplier to SE rates, if they didn't have those then they'd be garbage for a lot of weapon types. The SE rate bonus is more valuable than the chase damage to be honest. :wacko:

Higher base atk? They're almost on par with Ray. Nox is not even close.

The TATK weapons have a situational 18% pot but Xie's is practically 15% because of Ele Conv, so the reliability and extra ATK on Xie will put it ahead. Not to mention many Nox pots aren't even practical (Crit Wand, Breakable Launcher, Guard Stance Sword, Elder Rebellion TMG, Snatch Bow...)

[Kondibon]

Higher base atk? They're almost on par with Ray. Nox is not even close.

The TATK weapons have a situational 18% pot but Xie's is practically 15% because of Ele Conv, so the reliability and extra ATK on Xie will put it ahead. Not to mention many Nox pots aren't even practical (Crit Wand, Breakable Launcher, Guard Stance Sword, Elder Rebellion TMG, Snatch Bow...)Yeah, that was a mistake, my bad. :wacko:

I dunno how else to put what I'm trying to say other than I've seen people do more with less, if you're at the point where you need to rely on affixes for any more damage then you don't need it, and the game is balanced for lower gear than people seem to think (It's also balanced for better players but eh...)

[Zysets]

Nah I understand what you mean. Affixes aren't the biggest thing when it comes to your abilities as a player. Previously I said that I just kind of hope people understand how affixing works on it's most basic level at least, so you can take advantage of it to cover some bases where you're lacking, such as maybe affixing HP on your units if you think you need it.

The difference between having a nice solid 60 attack affix and a 150 attack affix is so small imo. I really don't expect anyone to go full blown hardcore min maxing, but just understand the tools you have at your disposal if you need them.

[Selphea]

Affixing is more about quality of life though. If you're a Newman Force rolling with unaffixed uncrafted Saiki and Mind II/Gloom Resist/Arm IV, i don't care how awesome your weapon is, you'll be forever out of juice and go splat in one hit on Mother

[Vatallus]

Even if you grinded your units as a Newman Force you're still going to go splat in one hit if you didn't affix HP in any content worth mentioning.

[isCasted]

Mother specifically is a quest where Force can completely avoid any serious damage, because Mirage Escape is just easy to time, and spamming Ragrants from Talis from afar is just very efficient.

[oratank]

my Newman Fo with 780 hp don't die in 1 hit unless i usng pp convert then that would happen and Mother smash but no Fo gonna get hit by that :/

[Selphea]

780 is more HP than Newman HP + uncrafted Saiki gives! Mother is easy to dodge but I still like having some buffer against "oops" moments - they do happen.

[Raujinn]

The numbers just confirm what was generally known in that a 13* weapon with a decent potential fully grinded and 60% element is your biggest contributor to overall damage. Some 12*s are still acceptable but max grind and 50% is still a baseline there. +10 of a specific set of units at that, kinda complicated to say which but generally whatever helps your class out best or stay alive best I'd say.

With affixes I think a base attempt to create something is generally acceptable and almost doesn't matter what you do as long as it isn't clearly the affixes the item came with (with the possible exception of Mark affixes cause those can be pretty good and you can't make those). It's there to augment your playstyle and if that's walking on the razors edge and going all in on attack/pp with no hp or defense then you do you. As long as you can actually pull it off, if not get something on there to help you not die and tbh on XH and Ult the odds are good you're gonna get hit so I'd leave the glass cannon loadouts for Time Attacks not general play.

[Kondibon]

I know hp and pp are good to have on affixes. There's a reason I posted my stupid hp set. :wacko: I actually wear it during mother because then literally nothing except her raid wipe can kill me, and i can actually survive the first one. Same with PD assuming there's a Te around. Once you have over 1.7k hp, with decent units, no single attack in the entire game that isn't a wipe mechanic can oneshot you. Also, it's nice to not have to stop and heal whenever I get grazed. I play Su though, not Fo.


The numbers just confirm what was generally known in that a 13* weapon with a decent potential fully grinded and 60% element is your biggest contributor to overall damage. Some 12*s are still acceptable but max grind and 50% is still a baseline there. +10 of a specific set of units at that, kinda complicated to say which but generally whatever helps your class out best or stay alive best I'd say. This is basically what I was trying to say. Though I feel maxing your unit grind is only as important if you're using older units and/or find yourself dying a lot to hits that did just over your hp. I rocked ungrinded units for a while and was fine.


With affixes I think a base attempt to create something is generally acceptable and almost doesn't matter what you do as long as it isn't clearly the affixes the item came with (with the possible exception of Mark affixes cause those can be pretty good and you can't make those). This is the only part I don't agree with completely if only because I feel like items with preset affixes what they consider "good enough" 25-35 atk with 2-4 pp isn't hard to get even with just a soul though. I think that's why X The Souls are so easy to affix without soul receptor compared to other souls. And of course the mark affixes like you said. I think they were intended for people who want decent affixes but didn't want to actually go through the trouble of affixing, since a mark+soul gives you quite a bit of atk and pp on its own. Too bad marks can't go on units. >:I Untekked units when sega?


EDIT: I guess I should also add that all my ranting was aimed at the people who think 80atk affixes should be the baseline, and anyone without decent custom affixes is a leech and not contributing, which isn't true.

[Zysets]

I think 60 attack is a good baseline for affixes. Easy to do with a nice Soul and Power/Shoot/Technique III. Everything else should be fine tuned to your play style as you see fit.

[Alenoir]

Anything that's 60 ATK and shows an attempt of actually affixing the gear is fine, IMO. Anything higher is just your (our?) own ego really, and should not be forced onto other people.

Oh, good natural affix is fine, too. If your affix comes naturally to 60 to 90 ATK with 4 or 5 PP on a weapon that's completely acceptable. On units... Yeah let's do something with those Gryphon stuffs. :>

[Kondibon]

I really wish there was a way to force downslot because going from 3s to 4s has an exponential cost increase. :/ Decent fodders go from like 40k to 200k.

[Zysets]

I wish upslotting wasn't such a big pain, tried affixing some Orbit knuckles recently, used Tenora Boost, and lost it because Flict Arma failed at 90something percent.

[Kondibon]

What I should have said is that I wish the slots didn't even matter and you could just do affixes one at a time. :wacko:

[Zysets]

Oh yeah I'd accept that with open arms. If it were up to me, each slot was individual so you can do one affix at a time, but adding an extra slot would penalize that one affix, to keep things a bit fair.

So you get a drop with 4s, want to put 5, the fifth affix would be penalized, but the others wouldn't.

[Enforcer MKV]

What I should have said is that I wish the slots didn't even matter and you could just do affixes one at a time. :wacko:

This system would be amazing and would literally solve every issue I currently have with affixing

[ZerotakerZX]

This system would be amazing and would literally solve every issue I currently have with affixingSounds too easy. Isn't this game easy enought?

[Enforcer MKV]

Sounds too easy. Isn't this game easy enought?

I'm biased and hate the current system to the point of refusing to affix, so I genuinely don't care.

Also I believe difficulty should be in the fighting and actual combat of a game. Not gear enhancement behind lying percentages. So there's that. Make crafting the gear easier so they can give us harder content to use it on. Least thats my view on it.

[ZerotakerZX]

I'm biased and hate the current system to the point of refusing to affix, so I genuinely don't care.

Also I believe difficulty should be in the fighting and actual combat of a game. Not gear enhancement behind lying percentages. So there's that. Make crafting the gear easier so they can give us harder content to use it on. Least thats my view on it.

Its an RPG game, so gearing up is as vital as actually figthing. I mean, most of the game's playtime is dull farming of said gear.

[Kondibon]

Sounds too easy. Isn't this game easy enought?There's no "difficulty" with weapon affixing. It's not hard, just tedious and needlessly unforgiving if the RNG doesn't favor you. No ammount of skill is going to turn a 95% chance into 100%. And the fact that you lose progress is a huge problem and was the biggest problem with pre NT-grinding. :/

[ZerotakerZX]

There's no "difficulty" with weapon affixing. It's not hard, just tedious and needlessly unforgiving if the RNG doesn't favor you. No ammount of skill is going to turn a 95% chance into 100%. And the fact that you lose progress is a huge problem and was the biggest problem with pre NT-grinding. :/

difficulty isn't supposed to be based on your reflexes (skill) alone, but ability to think as well.

[Xaelouse]

aka Luck is also a skill

[ZerotakerZX]

aka Luck is also a skill

that called gambling, and yes, according to Fallout, it is a skill.

[SteveCZ]

There's no "difficulty" with weapon affixing. It's not hard, just tedious and needlessly unforgiving if the RNG doesn't favor you. No ammount of skill is going to turn a 95% chance into 100%.

They who calculate correctly knows that 95% isn't a one time thing. They know they need 2 tries for 95% affix if they want it closer to 100%, which is 99.75%. So when the first 95% fails, they know they'd need another fodder for the 2nd and not cry over the first attempt. Same goes to other chances. You don't deal with 60% chance one time, but more than twice.

That's how you affix. Other than that, you're a gambler. Lol.

[Kondibon]

difficulty isn't supposed to be based on your reflexes (skill) alone, but ability to think as well.I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. If it was possible to get every affix combination to 100% then this wouldn't be an issue. :/ My point is that no matter how good you are at planning affixes there's always a chance you'll fail and lose progress.

That's like saying it's ok for you to just randomly die when you use a PA during a boss fight. :/ No amount of skill can make up for that.


So when the first 95% fails, they know they'd need another fodder for the 2nd and not cry over the first attempt.I'm not sure what you're trying to say because you don't just need another fodder. You also need to upslot again, which risks your other affixes that aren't 100%. It's the negative progress that makes the system bad.

[ZerotakerZX]

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. If it was possible to get every affix combination to 100% then this wouldn't be an issue. :/ My point is that no matter how good you are at planning affixes there's always a chance you'll fail and lose progress.

That's like saying it's ok for you to just randomly die when you use a PA during a boss fight. :/ No amount of skill can make up for that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say because you don't just need another fodder. You also need to upslot again, which risks your other affixes that aren't 100%. It's the negative progress that makes the system bad.
That's why gambling is a skill. Its about calculating risks.

[Kondibon]

That's why gambling is a skill. Its about calculating risks.Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that no matter how skilled you are at gambling you can still lose. You're looking at affixing in a vacuum, when it's part of a bigger game. It doesn't matter if gambling is a skill or not. It's still a chance at a net loss that's outside of your control that no amount of skill can make up for. There's nothing you can learn and get better at.

EDIT: To reword that, you're right, determining the risks is a skill. But there's no skill or knowledge that can combat those risks, and thus, the part you're trying to say is difficulty is moot because the end result is the same regardless of whether not you understand statistics.

I get kind of mad when people act like 99% is guaranteed because that 1% can still happen, and when it does you failed. There's no 99% success, you either succeed or you fail there's no inbetween.

[SteveCZ]

Let me make it short for you: you calculate risks. If you understand what I'm saying, you'll easily understand how people price their non-raw fodders/ready-to-use units in the market. They don't put price just like that, they calculate it.

I'm not a gambler, I calculate them. For me, everything about affixing is "100%". What matters are my meseta and/or hunt hours for it.

I guarantee you, the only thing you call luck in affixing is not about how your affix fail or success, but how it can reduce your actual cost of making it. ;-)

[milranduil]

Let me make it short for you: you calculate risks. If you understand what I'm saying, you'll easily understand how people price their non-raw fodders/ready-to-use units in the market. They don't put price just like that, they calculate it.

I'm not a gambler, I calculate them. For me, everything about affixing is "100%". What matters are my meseta and/or hunt hours for it.

I guarantee you, the only thing you call luck in affixing is not about how your affix fail or success, but how it can reduce your actual cost of making it. ;-)

tell that to the catalyst/ret4 i failed 7x in a row before it passed.

[SteveCZ]

tell that to the catalyst/ret4 i failed 7x in a row before it passed.

That's good already for catalyst, 7x. LOL. Unless you fail 98% 7 times in a row then I'll take my words back. :-P

[Kondibon]

It's worth noting that Random Number Generators that aren't created from atmospheric noise aren't actually random and are prone to streaking. EDIT: Then again, if we're talking about gambling in general most consumer dice are imbalanced, and a human shuffling cards wouldn't be completely random either.


I'm not a gambler, I calculate them. For me, everything about affixing is "100%". What matters are my meseta and/or hunt hours for it.That's not how statistics work unless they're loaded (which is how a lot of games counteract streaking in RNG), but PSO2 doesn't seem to do anything like that. Statistically likely and 100% are VERY VERY different things.

[SteveCZ]

That's not how statistics work unless they're loaded (which is how a lot of games counteract streaking in RNG), but PSO2 doesn't seem to do anything like that. Statistically likely and 100% are VERY VERY different things.

Ahahaha .. It's alright if you don't believe me. It's not like I'm doing affix by yesterday though. I even doubt that "RNG" whatever thing like you, that I made my data based on my own fail/success rate I got from the game to see how it works, thousands of them.
My friend even made thousands of data just to calculate the rate for Black Nyak, in order to get tons of casino coins easily, without gambling (Maybe we'd get kicked out of a real casino if we're counting, just like in the movies! :-P).

If one say that's not statistics, I don't know what else it is about. Luck? LOL. Please.
Even the affix simulator created the success pattern and success graph for you. You can doubt it, which leads back to my first paragraph where you calculate it yourself. I explained how it works behind the scene but then again, what do I know about statistics. :D

But after these few last pages I'd then agree if PSO2 wants to put affixes as requirement for expert block. Apparently this affixing thing needs better attention from players.

[Kondibon]

Ahahaha .. It's alright if you don't believe me. It's not like I'm doing affix by yesterday though. I even doubt that "RNG" whatever thing like you, that I made my data based on my own fail/success rate I got from the game to see how it works, thousands of them.
My friend even made thousands of data just to calculate the rate for Black Nyak, in order to get tons of casino coins easily, without gambling (Maybe we'd get kicked out of a real casino if we're counting, just like in the movies! :-P).

If one say that's not statistics, I don't know what else it is about. Luck? LOL. Please.
Even the affix simulator created the success pattern and success graph for you. You can doubt it, which leads back to my first paragraph where you calculate it yourself. I explained how it works behind the scene but then again, what do I know about statistics. :D

But after these few last pages I'd then agree if PSO2 wants to put affixes as requirement for expert block. Apparently this affixing thing needs better attention from players.I'm trying to say that there's a difference between something being likely and something being guaranteed, and pretending it's guaranteed just because it's incredibly likely is foolhardy.

[SteveCZ]

I'm not pretending about it. But then again I guess no point for me to convince you about it anymore.

People can believe what they believe about affixing myths, and as usual only a few of us in our own circles enjoyed it. For years now.
It's not new to me to hear people say that this is always just a mere chance, likely, possibly, probably, unlikely, whatever, whether or not I'm trying to help him or her. So I don't take it personally if people disbelieve me.

I just thought that in this discussion, the people are well aware about affixing that it's not hard to understand and therefore useless to put it as expert block requirement, as it doesn't mean anything much or comparable to the main gameplay. If that's the case, I'd definitely agree that affixing has no value as requirement.

I was wrong after all.

Because of that, I got a good reason to believe why PSO2 team need to put affix as requirement for expert block. There's no need to nerf it whatsoever so the system can force people to understand it and see if they are worthy of an expert block. For new, uninformed players.
They will hunt for unnecessary items to affix more and more (and fail more) because they don't understand it. Therefore they play the game more to hunt those affixes, and, voila, they become better at playing due to the hunt. Hopefully. :-P

[Selphea]

Law of large numbers. Given infinite resources, any non-zero% recipe will eventually succeed.

[Kondibon]

Law of large numbers. Given infinite resources, any non-zero% recipe will eventually succeed.That's not what the law of large numbers means. It means that they'd average out over a long enough period. :/ That's not even what I'm talking about. Who cares what the average is, there's no way to actually tell with 100% certainty if your NEXT result is going to fail or succeed. The thing you're talking about is the gambler's fallacy.

[Selphea]

That's not what the law of large numbers means. It means that they'd average out over a long enough period. :/ That's not even what I'm talking about. Who cares what the average is, there's no way to actually tell with 100% certainty if your NEXT result is going to fail or succeed. The thing you're talking about is the gambler's fallacy.

Gambler's Fallacy is used to describe either:

A) the base chance of success is different from the believed chance of success
B) failure will directly affect the success of an independent event

Neither of which really apply to brute forcing an affix with a fixed chance of success.

Law of large numbers otoh means if the success rate is not 0, then the average number of successes will be greater than 0, given enough attempts. Budgeting for 3 attempts at a single 90% affix is a 99.9% chance of success for example. Of course there's still a 1/1000 chance for 3 fails in a row but even if that happens, eventually there will be one success.

But with Extreceptor, you can get very decent 135 ATK 5-slot affixes with straight 100%s even on upslot


UQ Soul
Atk 3
Flict or Alter
Fever
Elegant

[Kondibon]

Gambler's Fallacy is used to describe either:

A) the base chance of success is different from the believed chance of success
B) failure will directly affect the success of an independent event

Neither of which really apply to brute forcing an affix with a fixed chance of success.

Law of large numbers otoh means if the success rate is not 0, then the average number of successes will be greater than 0, given enough attempts. Budgeting for 3 attempts at a single 90% affix is a 99.9% chance of success for example. Of course there's still a 1/1000 chance for 3 fails in a row but even if that happens, eventually there will be one success.I think my problem is that budgeting for multiple failures is so expensive to the point where the cost effectiveness doesn't make any sense, and most of the meseta doesn't even go into sinks, it goes into other players hands. I dunno anymore, I just know the affix system is dumb. :/



But with Extreceptor, you can get very decent 135 ATK 5-slot affixes with straight 100%s even on upslot


UQ Soul
Atk 3
Flict or Alter
Fever
Elegant

Well that's just to the point where the cost effectiveness isn't even worth it.

[isCasted]

5s

Fever
Elegant


I wouldn't put a freaking Fever even alongside a regular Boost (let alone Noble or Elegant), unless I went for a 7-8s affix (which I probably will never do, because fuck this system). Fever is either for budget affixes where Boosts would be overkill or certain types of affix that are just there for e-peen, and this is a colossal waste of money.

[Selphea]

I wouldn't put a freaking Fever even alongside a regular Boost (let alone Noble or Elegant), unless I went for a 7-8s affix (which I probably will never do, because fuck this system). Fever is either for budget affixes where Boosts would be overkill or certain types of affix that are just there for e-peen, and this is a colossal waste of money.

Yes I wouldn't put a Fever with Elegant myself :wacko: but that's the best a straight 100% 5S upslot get for ATK afaik.

[milranduil]

Yes I wouldn't put a Fever with Elegant myself :wacko: but that's the best a straight 100% 5S upslot get for ATK afaik.

that's why you put spirita or stamina3 instead.

[Selphea]

that's why you put spirita or stamina3 instead.

Incidentally that's exactly what I did

http://i.imgur.com/Ll5YGuK.jpg

[sparab]

I don't know when and why this thread got derailed to another affix war nor do I care.

But the fact is: In future, you only need a weapon grinding (title?) to get in expert blocks. Using ungrinded weapon or umbra stick in such blocks will NOT cause the system to kick you out.

"It's up to players conscience" -Kimura

[SteveCZ]

But the fact is:

Source?

[sparab]

Source?

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2016/12/161221a.html

エキスパートブロックに『武器強化』の条件追加
ブロック入場後は未強化武器も使用可

[SteveCZ]

http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2016/12/161221a.html

Nice, it's updated. )b

Still no idea on the specifics of the condition though.

[Zysets]

I don't know when and why this thread got derailed to another affix war nor do I care.

But the fact is: In future, you only need a weapon grinding (title?) to get in expert blocks. Using ungrinded weapon or umbra stick in such blocks will NOT cause the system to kick you out.

"It's up to players conscience" -Kimura

I mean that should have been expected, would have been ridiculous to do it that way, what if you equip a weapon and go to finish it's grind while in expert blocks? Would be stupid to force people to move out of expert blocks to do that.

[sparab]

I mean that should have been expected, would have been ridiculous to do it that way, what if you equip a weapon and go to finish it's grind while in expert blocks? Would be stupid to force people to move out of expert blocks to do that.

Because people asked. KMR also stressed "there is nothing they can do if players idle leech with 8s *14" so "they'd rather set a (extremely) low bar and leave everything to players' conscience".

Probably just trying to bar players who fist cleared solo XQ.

[KazeSenoue]

@Kondibon
I do a lot of math in my head.

The damage between those with average 12* weapons and your top weapon there is 1.67 (if you divide the averages of the two weapons). You are counting units too, so this being said. It appears as though 3 endgame players deal the damage that 5 players with average 12* would deal. Am I right or wrong?

I got that from
872/522 = 1.67
I then converted this to the fraction 5/3
Then multiplied by 3 to eliminate the denominator and be left with 5.

From the point of view of a player that reached endgame with a standard 12* weapon, it would mean we invert the fraction to change point of view. He deals 60% of the damage an endgame player with the same build would do. This number is actually less because your numbers assumes that the player is at level cap. This means that if we encounter a player who doesn't have units or weapons affixed and doesn't have a full tree, the damage might be even lower than this comparison of 60%.

I've always told players that the important thing in 13* weapons is to get them to 60% element and fully grinded to have their potentials unlocked. That deals the most damage. Affixes are extra (but shouldn't be ignored). I know players who they go for minimal primary-stat increases in their weapons and go after secondary stat increases (like adding a lot of PP to the weapon itself in order to get more uses of their PAs) They will go for around 50 - 70 Attack Points and then do as much as possible to pump up PP.

This just goes to show how important gear is in making an EQ run go as fast as possible. That is of course if the EQ run doesn't have a limit on max number of runs. If it doesn't then gear is not as important as even beating a run incredibly fast won't get a player a second run there unless of course he or she wants to log into a character on another ship and do the run there too... but I hold my opinion of that being kind of pushing it and greedy.

Though I don't like the damage calculator at all...
Good Job on working with the data itself.

Wait I have a question. I don't think it's clear enough, did you do that with the damage calculator or not?

[ThePSOVeteran]

Inb4 Sega makes nearly every block expert and we get locked out of game for not having any space (even premium) to play since we are not Experts! lol. I for one am trying to grind every weapon in game for titles, so I'll be hell bent on getting the required title too. I bet its one of those get X number of 11*, 12*, or 13* NT weapons to +35 titles.

[ZerotakerZX]

Inb4 Sega makes nearly every block expert and we get locked out of game for not having any space (even premium) to play since we are not Experts! lol. I for one am trying to grind every weapon in game for titles, so I'll be hell bent on getting the required title too. I bet its one of those get X number of 11*, 12*, or 13* NT weapons to +35 titles.
I think they'll add a new title. I think they done it last time, iirc.

[Keilyn]

Wait I have a question. I don't think it's clear enough, did you do that with the damage calculator or not?

At the beginning of the 12th page of this thread, Kondibon spent some time doing research and posted the following screenshot:
http://i.imgur.com/R0InM0x.png

I remember reading her post and being happy that a math and science standard was present, and so I decided to reply to it. Notice, that there are three damage numbers for each weapon entry. The Min, Max, and Mean. Mean is another way of saying "Average." As you can see, this shot has the calculated damage already. I can just work with the data.

If you read the mean of the [Average 12*] it reads 522.
If you read the mean of the [Ray 10603 BiS Affix] it reads 872.

Now if we want to compare two numbers, we use division.
Division actually means "A comparison between two numbers"

We take a calculator and we write in 872/522 since these numbers already represent an attack against a monster with a set defense parameter. We end up getting 1.6709.

This is where my mental math took over. Rather than continue using a calculator I did an approximation.
This is where I used a skill all students are required to learn late 5th grade and Early 6th grade, which is to see a non-whole number as a fraction, percentage, or ratio.

I said "1.6666 is very close to 1.6709, just a little less of 4 thousandths (look at the third number after the decimal point) which is the same as 5/3rds.

Now lets say that I was the one who had the [10603 BiS Ray Weapon] and you had the [Average 12*] weapon. The number 5/3rds represents the damage viewpoint from my end and not yours. In short, it is from my perspective in which I would deal (In this case according to the statistical data against this particular enemy) +67% more damage (1.6709 approximated as 1.66).

In order to represent this data from your point of view,
I simply Invert the fraction itself.
All this means is that both numbers swap places.
5/3 becomes 3/5

This now means that compared to me, you inflict 60% of my damage.

So where did I conjure up that three people with [10603 BiS Ray Weapon] deal the damage of five players under the same class, level, and build with [Average 12*]?

The answer is in that fraction.
Lets say that I want to eliminate the denominator so we no longer have a fraction.
I choose to multiply the bottom number (denominator) by the top number (numerator) to be left with the top number (numerator) as a whole number.

This means that it takes five people (numerator) to equal the damage of the three people (Denominator) as demonstrated by the following:
If I deal 5/3rds your damage, it means my damage is 1.66 or 5/3rds and in your case your damage is 1 or in the case of fractions its 3/3 considering I don't want to deal with .3333, .6666, or .9999s. Its amazing how we can picture thirds better in our brain than calculators.

5/3
5/3
5/3

3/3
3/3
3/3
3/3
3/3

So if we have 8 players....
5/3 * 3 = 15/3 (5/3 represent players with [BiS 10603 Ray Weapon])
3/3 * 5 = 15/3 (3/3 represent players with [Average 12*])

Now lets do it from the other point of view.
If you deal 3/5th my damage, that means your damage is 3/5 and my damage is 1 or in other words...5/5.

3/5
3/5
3/5
3/5
3/5

5/5
5/5
5/5

Now we have
3/5 * 5 = 15/5 (3/5 represent players with [Average 12*])
5/5 * 3 = 15/5 (5/5 represent players with [BiS 10603 Ray Weapon])

Notice that this is the exact same information, but from another point of view.
Call this Respect, as many individuals would post information in one-sided fashion.


We then ask the question:
Why would possess a player to have a typical 12* in an endgame EQ?
The answer could be that the player is new and doesn't know how to grind/affix. The player also could be leveling up and has not reached equip parameters yet, Maybe he or she has not raised their mag, etc.

One thing we know is that data would be assumed with both players being the same level and build. What if the 12* weapon wielder was not at level cap yet and didn't have all their skills yet? The answer is that the player will deal less damage. This means a level 70 player who is behind 9 skill points (5 skill points from levels and 4 from class ex-cubes) will do lower damage if the player is still working on the damage-dealing skills in the skill tree.

So the question goes....
Looking at points of view:

Is it better to look at it from the point of view of the endgame player with a 10603 BiS Ray Weapon?
This is good if we want to argue just how much power weapons truly have and how important it is to get a weapon.

How about the point of view of the players using the Average 12* weapon?
Well, it is easier to increase the power of a player who has an Average 12* weapon, while it becomes extremely difficult to increase an endgame player's overall power outside of working on attack efficiency (making sure all the hits land when in time they are required to do so), but seeing that a player might actually hit for less than 3/5th damage of an endgame player means that a lot of room exists to work with that player.

Looking from above to below, we might not see that much we aren't used to seeing.
Looking from below to above, we might dream to one day touch the heavens...

So back to your question.
I did not use the Damage Calculator myself.
I used data attained through the damage calculator that was posted by Kondibon to apply my logic and reasoning skills to draw my own conclusion based on the data that was presented.

[Zorak000]

if I have to have 6 slots to enter the block then I'll just put

shoot I
gloom resist I
spirita I
emper embrace
nuya fever
ability I

on a +35 Gunslash; not just any gunslash, but Gunslash

[Alenoir]

inb4 title asking for a 13*

Edit: Not sure why you're even including that Ability I. (http://i.imgur.com/lwbI5TT.png)

[Zysets]

if I have to have 6 slots to enter the block then I'll just put

shoot I
gloom resist I
spirita I
emper embrace
nuya fever
ability I

on a +35 Gunslash; not just any gunslash, but Gunslash

6s rumor is probably fake because it makes no sense

ex: your post

[Caetho]

This whole thread is a load of shit, when I use Zanverse with my HuTe with Orbit Partisan in combination with Vol Graptor + Ragrants, I do top damage by default, this isn't even up for discussion.

Who the fuck needs math when you just plow through everything with Zanverse. You don't see me calculating the ideal angle for a door to be opened far enough for me to pass through it.

You guys are bad and you should feel bad.

[SmolNeko]

of course but this is good, its just mud flinging everywhere!


This made me laugh because I feel like your super serious but sorta joking but mainly serious

I don't think Te/Gu has been a "thing" since people doing gimmick PK tmg ilbartas on chain was a "thing". So basically never.

[ArcaneTechs]

I don't think Te/Gu has been a "thing" since people doing gimmick PK tmg ilbartas on chain was a "thing". So basically never.
it was a thing (sorta) before the intro of Class bonuses happened but people try to make (again) obscure poor dps but "muh playstyle" classes a thing amongst everyone when reality is that this game is all about high DPS etc not gonna debate this right now because it'll derail from the other guys

apparently people still read Keilyns posts instead of scrolling over them too when its always a wall-o-text

[Selphea]

TeGu was best ep3 Zanverser, but replaced by TeSu @ 1% higher. Only useful vs raid bosses and only if the other 11 people aren't bad.

If playing with baddies, 0 dps multiplied by Zanverse is still 0 dps, better off counting on your 6 Marons than 11 humans.

[SmolNeko]

I am really curious on how they will implement this, but otherwise I like the idea of peaople having to grind their stuff. Is really cringe worthy seeing people blowing their meseta in full atk affixes and yet the gear is not grinded. I understand if you just got the weapon and is 20 element, but at least try to take it to 30 :/
Then again, those are probably better than those with +0 units who die over and over.

I don't see them "implementing" anything other than a title(s) which ask for stuff like "Grind an equip of x rarity to +30/unit to +10" and "add an affix to a piece of equipment". For summoners "compress a candy!" and "Level a pet to lv80!"

[Selphea]

Gearscore plugin when. I don't want to left click examine and scroll through 4 items

[GHNeko]

TeGu was best ep3 Zanverser, but replaced by TeSu @ 1% higher. Only useful vs raid bosses and only if the other 11 people aren't bad.

If playing with baddies, 0 dps multiplied by Zanverse is still 0 dps, better off counting on your 6 Marons than 11 humans.

yeah idk why anyone was saying TeGu is a bad class.

It still has one of the best zanverses even tho it was replaced by TeSu, so it was extremely useful for organized MPAs for certain EQs, and a situationally amazing class is still amazing by all means, because you'll only be using it when its appropriate.

[milranduil]

TeGu is still used for td4 since it can build chains as well as zanverse at the same time.

[Kondibon]

Gearscore plugin when.Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that there's so many variables in gear. In most games there's a very specific design that goes into classes and gear for gearscore/item level to work. Regardless of how well the PSO2 team did it, they clearly expect the average player able to complete content to be lower than what players who actually care want, which would mean something like gearscore wouldn't be able to take into consideration something like your specific latent or affixes. :/

[GHNeko]

te/su did not really replace it since te/gu builds chain much better still due to twice chain when doing organized strats involve chain such at br/gu and su/gu


TeGu is still used for td4 since it can build chains as well as zanverse at the same time.

ohword?

i've generally only encounted TeGu as zanverse slaves, and as such TeSu does that job better.

that being said, good to know since I guess that's a strat I can pocket for organized runs should the opportunity ever arise. I have a TeGu but I stopped developing it because ResidentSleeper

Thanks.

[SmolNeko]

Gearscore plugin when. I don't want to left click examine and scroll through 4 items

That wouldn't really solve anything that choosing who you play with/going with your team doesn't already do, would it now? Which is ultimately the best way to play this game if you're after "quality" runs of anything.