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View Full Version : SUGU Nerf incoming, Deus Esca is first!



Gestriden
Apr 1, 2017, 08:00 AM
Sega has finally responded to "Chain Marrons" there will be an overhaul on the system for episode 5, however for now Deus Esca and new Phaleg fight will be the first step to counter this by putting in a max damage limit of "999,999" (Note they actually say is limited to the damage that is "Displayed" and will not go any higher

final_attack
Apr 1, 2017, 08:03 AM
I guess I shouldn't do SatAim -> IF0 with high-Chain counter on Gu either .... If it's not limited to Maron only :wacko:

Well, at least if the WB jamming is in effect ...... damage lost is not so bad, I guess.

Suplin
Apr 1, 2017, 08:06 AM
While i understand the need for a nerf/soft cap i hope su/br and su/fi wont be affected much

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 08:09 AM
If this isn't an april fools joke (It's honestly REALLY hard to tell, gonna need a source sweety), this could actually kill Su/Gu period, since hitting the damage cap with Maron is piss easy even without chain if they do it in more places.

Gestriden
Apr 1, 2017, 08:20 AM
If this isn't an april fools joke (It's honestly REALLY hard to tell, gonna need a source sweety), this could actually kill Su/Gu period, since hitting the damage cap with Maron is piss easy even without chain if they do it in more places.


I mean no direct source I can link besides to the stream itself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtnCIW-IyyE

Dephinix
Apr 1, 2017, 09:48 AM
Proof on April 1st? All proof is no proof! Dudu success rates ahoy!

Lyrise
Apr 1, 2017, 09:55 AM
While i understand the need for a nerf/soft cap i hope su/br and su/fi wont be affected much

Most likely not, the main problem stems from what happens when you have entire parties of SU/GU. Parties of SU/FI and SU/BR are far less devastating.

Selphea
Apr 1, 2017, 09:57 AM
Inb4 BoGu Chain Kestrel 0 becomes the new Chain meta :wacko:

Bellion
Apr 1, 2017, 09:59 AM
http://www.g-heaven.net/topics/2017/04/170401a.html

jooozek
Apr 1, 2017, 11:49 AM
the good news is that they didnt full retard this time and start banning people for DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE :wacko:

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 11:58 AM
the good news is that they didnt full retard this time and start banning people for DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE :wacko:

I don't suppose you remember the Chain Banish fiasco of 2015...

jooozek
Apr 1, 2017, 11:59 AM
thus this time

pkemr4
Apr 1, 2017, 12:09 PM
oh look, instead of making chain TMG only they just do this instead. guess every class needs to abuse chain in some way for easy 999ks for sega to make it gunner main only or tmg only

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 01:13 PM
oh look, instead of making chain TMG only they just do this instead. guess every class needs to abuse chain in some way for easy 999ks for sega to make it gunner main only or tmg only

Pretty much this. Getting reeeaaal sick of collateral nerfs because other classes break my toys.

Xaelouse
Apr 1, 2017, 01:35 PM
It kinda puts a hamper on sicknasty 1.5 mil IF-0s but straight sataim spam still gets the job done too

It sucks but it's better than being an inferior Su/Gu no matter what you do

abidias
Apr 1, 2017, 02:45 PM
Watch they nerfing Gunner again ...

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 02:47 PM
Watch they nerfing Gunner again ...

I think they decided on this option instead because they don't want to nerf Gunner. Gunner has had enough nerfs already.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 02:49 PM
Most likely not, the main problem stems from what happens when you have entire parties of SU/GU. Parties of SU/FI and SU/BR are far less devastating.

i mean...

i hit 1.7mil - 2mil+ damage in ideal conditions with SuFi regularly...

suffice it to say, if they're making a hard cap of 999,999 on maron only, i've less reason to play SuFi than i do now.

also making chain TMG/Gu main exclusive kills FoGu.

can we not kill FoGu? lol

i enjoy FoGu.

also hope that the damage cap isnt for all classes cuz i enjoy 2mil chains with GuFi.

Selphea
Apr 1, 2017, 05:00 PM
It's funny they added the TMG Stance ring to make shooting attacks better, but now Aerial Shooting might hit harder than IF0 again, just because its damage is split into 3 hits while IF0 lumps them all into 1.

Vatallus
Apr 1, 2017, 05:16 PM
Gunner/TMG only would of been too smart. Need to keep making the same mistakes over and over.

doomdragon83
Apr 1, 2017, 05:24 PM
Why bother doing something that makes sense when you can just throw pointless restrictions on everybody? That's the Sega way!

sparab
Apr 1, 2017, 05:25 PM
L/TMGNoDamageCap is coming! I see it!

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 05:30 PM
Gunner/TMG only would of been too smart. Need to keep making the same mistakes over and over.I'm REALLY not a fan of removing a class's most interesting mechanic for other weapons. Gu is already way too mech gun centric.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 07:55 PM
I'm REALLY not a fan of removing a class's most interesting mechanic for other weapons. Gu is already way too mech gun centric.

Seriously this.

damn near everything about Gu is centered around TMG. CT is one of the most versitile skills in the game. It'd be really shitty to make it TMG/Gu main only lol.

suggesting tmg only/gu main only is trying to level a city when you're trying only to remove a house. it's excessive.

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 08:26 PM
If that's what it takes for GU mains to stop catching nerfs meant for GU subs, then carpet bombs away as far as I'm concerned.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 08:38 PM
Or instead of that, you can (try) to petition for giving CT damage-type specific multis???????

or weapon specific multis?

like can you guys really only think of sweeping and general changes that leave your GuHu and GuRa's unscathed????

????????????\



you can also like...

have marron deflate over time, to make it harder to chain marron? reduce teh damage of maron strike on all stages below the final stage, since it's the stage before final stage that most SuGu's use for damage good portion of the time if not the majority. idk. something?

i mean the sky is the limit on terms of how to approach a nuanced issue without collateral damage...

i'd appreciate not opting for less versitility in the class system for the sake of 1 or 2 classes lol

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 08:46 PM
I am over half measures at this point. I want a solution that leaves absolutely zero possibility that we'll need to revisit this nonsense again. It's bad enough that Bravers and Summoners make better use of my core mechanic than I do. It's spit in the wound that said core mechanic gets kicked in the teeth while those classes scuttle off back to their OTP subclasses and leave me with my busted toys. But okay, you want an inventive solution? Okay, for GU sub, Chain Trigger now caps at...oh, I dunno...ten. Tch, this fucking Summoner bullshit's been cancer since day zero.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 08:54 PM
So you take it out on other classes because sega made TMGs and Gu main ass at using it's own core mechanic vs other classes?

that's retarded.

way to play crabs in a barrel.

Vatallus
Apr 1, 2017, 09:01 PM
Oh, please. It would be doing all of us a favor.

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 09:06 PM
I'm not taking it out on other classes. I'm suggesting that Sega does what they already do with several other skills core to the class. Limit Break is Fi exclusive. Elemental Conversion is Fo exclusive. Combat Escape is Br exclusive. Shifta Strike is Te exclusive. So why do I gotta share?

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:13 PM
Combat Escape is only Br exclusive as a counter measure to HuBr Katana domination way back when. It's not there to give the class flavor, but to make people play BrHu over HuBr. It's the same with Te as well; Shift Strike was an appeal to make people main Te and play wand.

LB and EC are identify skills that give the class their flavor, but really those classes already have their identity even without LB/EC.

Gu has its identify in the from of several TMG specific skills and multis. That and the game is a lot more interesting with CT working on other weapons.

If you want to play TMG you already are forced to main Gu, especially since a good portion of the classes damage doesnt work on anything but ranged attacks.

EDIT: also LB/EC work for all weapon types anyways. and GuSu is still extremely retarded as chain marron is still viable. as is GuBr chain banish.

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 09:20 PM
Combat Escape is only Br exclusive as a counter measure to HuBr Katana domination way back when.

Read: there is established precedent for using class exclusivity as a tool to respond to undesirable developments in the game's meta.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 09:23 PM
I'm not taking it out on other classes. I'm suggesting that Sega does what they already do with several other skills core to the class. Limit Break is Fi exclusive. Elemental Conversion is Fo exclusive. Combat Escape is Br exclusive. Shifta Strike is Te exclusive. So why do I gotta share?I'd just like to point out that all of the examples you gave work with multiple weapons except combat escape, which is just a side skill to katana combat. They're just main class only. If people were suggesting Chain be main class only I'd be fine with that, though it means Gu has literally no use as a sub at all for anything.

KabutechRX
Apr 1, 2017, 09:24 PM
Damn Su/Gu scrubs cheated on Mother and got CT nerfed for everyone. RIP in peace Gunner 2012-2017.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:26 PM
Read: there is established precedent for using class exclusivity as a tool to respond to undesirable developments in the game's meta.

yeah but that's not the answer here.

the problem is that maron is dumb and tmg is not the best at exploiting CT.

nerf maron, buff tmg. dont body CT versitility just because.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 09:32 PM
yeah but that's not the answer here.

the problem is that maron is dumb and tmg is not the best at exploiting CT.

nerf maron, buff tmg. dont body CT versitility just because.What he said. Twice chain was probably supposed to be that, but since the damage cap is the same regardless, it doesn't actually buff TMGs enough. Maybe something like "chain extend", that makes chain finish last longer when you use TMG PAs to cause it. A raw damage buff would be a bad idea though.

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 09:34 PM
Sure, that would solve the problem. For now. But then it'll be something else. A new PA craft, Episode 5's new class, some latent on a 14*, and then we're right back here with the meta being balanced on Gunner's back yet again. No more half measures. I want a solution that futureproofs this so that I don't do the equivalent of investing millions into crafting a maxed IF-0 only to have to come up with a new combo three months later.

SteveCZ
Apr 1, 2017, 09:35 PM
Should've made chain to be gu main only. Better yet, TMG only. :-D

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:35 PM
having a longer chain window after detonation exclusive to TMGs would be the ideal solution on top of nerfing maron because its the easiest shortcut to making TMG the de factor best choice for exploiting CT as it has a exclusively longer window for pumping out max deeps that no other class/weapon type can match.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:38 PM
Sure, that would solve the problem. For now. But then it'll be something else. A new PA craft, Episode 5's new class, some latent on a 14*, and then we're right back here with the meta being balanced on Gunner's back yet again. No more half measures. I want a solution that futureproofs this so that I don't do the equivalent of investing millions into crafting a maxed IF-0 only to have to come up with a new combo three months later.

welcome to meta gaming. where what is intended and where what you want are not what is the case.

in an open ended class systems, sometimes you just gotta role with how the game is being played at the highest level.

this is shit that is learned day 1 in competitive games and mmos tbh.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 09:38 PM
Sure, that would solve the problem. For now. But then it'll be something else. A new PA craft, Episode 5's new class, some latent on a 14*, and then we're right back here with the meta being balanced on Gunner's back yet again. No more half measures. I want a solution that futureproofs this.But that idea IS a halfmeasure. It's poorly thought out and sacrifices potential build variety for what seems to be your ego. :/

Vatallus
Apr 1, 2017, 09:38 PM
So when is it too much? We have 10% damage bonus to using main class weapons. Skills that can't be used as sub. This is the 2nd time they have decided that something another class was doing was too overpowered with Chain Trigger. With Chain Trigger being usable on all class setups that feature Gu they also can't go back and rework it to make it better for Gunner, but that won't really matter anymore. That 999,999 damage cap Deus Esca is going to feature will be for everyone. Not only Summoner. Not only for Maron. Not only for chain trigger. For everyone. Everyone who was capable of hitting that line is going to effected by this because yet again another class was able to make Chain Trigger broken as hell.

I'm still going to push that Chain Trigger be made main only or TMG only. One of those two. They could at least go back and rework it to make Gunner better if it only helped TMGs. If it is main only will still be in the same boat where Gu/Su and multi class bows can... oh wait. 999,999 cap that will eventually be added to every boss featured in quest after Deus Esca and possibly a few before that.

Nevermind, ya'll do whatever you guys want.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:42 PM
making it tmg/gu main would prob make it one of the most restrictive skills, if not the most restrictive skills and would legit shit on people who invested a bunch into BrGu or FoGu or x/Gu. It'a large large sweeping change that punishes a bunch of people for the sake of others.

I, for one, dont think this is the right thing to do at all.

like for christ sake, reducing the Chain Finish multi for non-TMG weapons is still a cleaner more desirable solution than what you guys are talking about smfh

the core problem is that other weapon types/classes are exploiting CT more than TMG itself. Why are you guys going beyond that scope for the sake of shoehorning people into playing specific ways when thsi game is intended to be open ended.

Xaeris
Apr 1, 2017, 09:51 PM
It's not a halfmeasure or poorly thought out. Class exclusivity is a proven concept. That's really all I have to say in reply to you. The rest is just provocation.


It'a large large sweeping change that punishes a bunch of people for the sake of others.

I, for one, dont think this is the right thing to do at all.

Irony.

Vatallus
Apr 1, 2017, 09:53 PM
It's ok. You can keep your Chain Trigger. After enough discussion and thinking the 999,999 cap will suffice. Since they will just add that to every quest they actually care about like they did with the Weak Bullet reduction.

So you can keep Chain Trigger so your builds won't be shit on. While everyone else who was capable of hitting over 999,999 without Chain Trigger gets shit on instead. No matter how this goes. Someone is losing. No one is winning. We are all getting plugged. They already leveled the city while you were defending Chain Trigger memes. :wacko:

pkemr4
Apr 1, 2017, 09:54 PM
Damn Su/Gu scrubs cheated on Mother and got CT nerfed for everyone. RIP in peace Gunner 2012-2017.

top lul

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 09:56 PM
While everyone else who was capable of hitting over 999,999 without Chain Trigger gets shit on instead. This is actually why I DON'T like the hard damage cap. It's not really a solution, it just means classes that do their burst damage in multi-hits are fine, while classes that rely on huge single hits get shafted, CT or not.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 09:59 PM
It's not a halfmeasure or poorly thought out. Class exclusivity is a proven concept. That's really all I have to say in reply to you. The rest is just provocation.



Irony.

Introduction of a new mechanic that results in a natural shift in meta is not the same thing as intentionally putting your hand in an established meta and changing it to suit your needs and desires.

Class Exclusivity has worked so far because none of the class excusive skills have gotten as restrictive as what you and others are suggesting. On top of that, they addressed the issue with causing little to no collateral damage, which is what your suggestions would fail to to as well. They also were done with the intention of making more people play that class. Gutting CT will not make more people play Gu. So you're effectively removing options from the overall pool of viable classes, while leaving Gu as is.

?????????

final_attack
Apr 1, 2017, 10:03 PM
And then .... Ep5 balancing will be ....
[SPOILER-BOX]ChainFinish (skill) buffed or simply become main class / tmg only :wacko:
Every other class still get access to CT so ..... :wacko:

Still .... I'm waiting to see how it goes for Gu as main in Ep5 :D[/SPOILER-BOX]

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 10:05 PM
Wow, didn't realize there'd be so much backdraft around this.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 10:09 PM
Wow, didn't realize there'd be so much backdraft around this.Maron is a blight on the universe.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 10:09 PM
Wow, didn't realize there'd be so much backdraft around this.

Open ended class systems in MMORPGs where you can mix and match classes and skills will inevitiably reach a point where certain tactics/combos/skills require targeted and nuanced nerfs and changes; and anything but will fuck over a handful of people, as well doing nothing.

Sega should have throughly tested CT upon its inception on top of every time a new change, pa, skill, or class is added.

Chain Marron should have been easy to spot because Maron Strike is intended to be a retarded nuke option and they already went through the trauma of Chain Banish and Magatsu; so adding another high damage option that is compatible with CT should have been on the "is this going to completely break our content" list.

Now that there are established metas and class builds centered around gu sub and CT, removing them is just going to be the worst option avaliable.

In an mmorpg, you want people to play as many classes as they can play and have fun, so the last thing you need to do is remove builds from the pool of viable class combos.

Sega dug their grave with this mechanic and now they have to deal with it without making intentional meta-changing changes that screw over build and effectively kill them.

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 10:16 PM
I personally think the Pets themselves need to be rebalanced. As it stands, there might as well only be like, three or four Pets because the other four or three see so little use in endgame play that they might as well not exist.

Z-0
Apr 1, 2017, 10:20 PM
Chain Trigger should be TMG only.

It's pretty much what everyone wants. As much as I enjoy FoGu, I actually wouldn't mind CT becoming GU main only because right now, GU main isn't taken because other classes can just use Chain Trigger instead and do more damage, or be more useful in general while still doing enough for when they use Chain Trigger.

Chain Trigger being usable by everyone is a broken mess.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 10:24 PM
Chain Marron should have been easy to spot because Maron Strike is intended to be a retarded nuke option and they already went through the trauma of Chain Banish and Magatsu; so adding another high damage option that is compatible with CT should have been on the "is this going to completely break our content" list.Marron in general is built around the flawed idea that getting KOd after use, requiring it to be hit, and having a timer balance it. When only the getting hit part matters, and that's only if you stunned a boss before you managed to get one to at least one charge.

elryan
Apr 1, 2017, 10:41 PM
As a GU main, I'm not worried.

It's not like you can hit 999,999 with IF-0 against Deus Esca with jammed WB anyway.

GHNeko
Apr 1, 2017, 10:43 PM
As a GU main, I'm not worried.

It's not like you can hit 999,999 with IF-0 against Deus Esca with jammed WB anyway.

unless esca has more defense than mother and no weak spot, then I dont see how a Gu main cant break 1mil like they do vs mother.

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 10:46 PM
You know, I actually expected them to nerf Maron Break a few weeks after releasing Maron. I was surprised when they didn't.

Kondibon
Apr 1, 2017, 10:51 PM
You know, I actually expected them to nerf Maron Break a few weeks after releasing Maron. I was surprised when they didn't.Honestly, Maron wouldn't even need a huge numbers nerf if you couldn't have more than one at once. But I can't think of a fair solution to that.

Altiea
Apr 1, 2017, 10:53 PM
Slightly off topic, but that reminds me, they need to give Melon Break a visual indicator something. The timing is too weird for people to use it consistently.

Cadfael
Apr 1, 2017, 10:56 PM
Stupid question I'm sure, but why couldn't Sega just cap the chain trigger damage when a Maron is present?

Zephyrion
Apr 2, 2017, 03:35 AM
Stupid question I'm sure, but why couldn't Sega just cap the chain trigger damage when a Maron is present?

Probably because with current policies, it's fairly obvious at this point that SEGA likes to blow flies away with hurricanes.

but yeah, my issue with damage cap is not so much about CT itself but with how it will create even more balance issues.
Remember FO, remember FI a.k.a classes with the highest DPS in the game, pretty much already established as the strongest classes before SU/GU was a thing ? Well the only classes that could actually complete in terms of damage with them were the other CT builds (which also sacrificed a lot of things to achieve that, notably having very mediocre damage outside of chains). With the damage cap in place, that pretty much means that again FO and FI will reign supreme, because after all doing a burst over 1M is broken, but doing 10k every fifth of a second is apparently fine.

Oh well it's not like it wasn't FOtasy Star Online already anyway sooo.

Moffen
Apr 2, 2017, 06:38 AM
Give tmgs TMG Tri-chain and bump the tmgs chain cap up to 150 for main class and have it flip to 50 if you swap out of tmgs once its built LUUUL
Capping the buildup for chains for every other class to 50 or something would be okay i guess.

Or
I dont know
Remove marron.

I'm on board for removing marron entirely.
Every pet outside of torim spiraling is absolute garbage when compared to marron.

abidias
Apr 2, 2017, 08:54 AM
Even PSU was more balanced than PSO2, pls SEGA

Z-0
Apr 2, 2017, 10:08 AM
I think Maron is mostly fine, the issue is that you can use multiples.

They should honestly just not let you have more than one, but then people would have a pissy fit they've made more than 1, but people should realise that a game needs nerfs sometimes, and that is going to mean some of your investments will get nuked. The power creep in PSO2 has gotten ridiculous.

Dephinix
Apr 2, 2017, 11:03 AM
Having one Maron does nothing in this chain trigger 4m+ situation. That's still a Maron on tap every 48 seconds, you can chain every 60 not including Chain F Bonus.

Zanverse
Apr 2, 2017, 11:07 AM
Marons Chains are the most useful in MPAs, pls don't nerf them SEGA. :(

cheapgunner
Apr 2, 2017, 11:10 AM
Wait, how do you guys do the Marron chains properly? Get hit 6 times, chain and spam normals with marron till it explodes on enemy for maximum dmg?

Z-0
Apr 2, 2017, 11:12 AM
With either a 3-hit / 6-hit Maron, you apply chain with normal or an uncharged tech, then build with Saf-0 and Ramegid-0 (usually with help as well), then use Maron Break x2 and Maron Strike to Detonate it (or just Strike, depending).

GHNeko
Apr 2, 2017, 02:37 PM
and then ofc pop a zanverse before hand since perfect keeper applies to zanverse on top of su's all attack bonus 1/2.

using multiple marons, and then ALSO allowing double stack of the roll that cuts KO time down by 10% (bringing maron's natural KO time down to 42seconds from 60, allowing for a much reliable maron revolver), a low pp cost nuke button (lol 5PP) which completely negates the biggest issue with daredevil parfait (1.1x damage but +25% pp cost) on top of maron having a personality that boosts its damage when it's below a certain HP threshold. and you can negate it's poor defense since def sandwiches are ridiculously meaty. 5 body sandwiches boosts maron's sdef by 500 so it becomes a decent tank with high hp and just too much damage.

i have a tesu with a lv100 maron with 10 element, no candies, that can break 1mil damage. why.


?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

milranduil
Apr 2, 2017, 03:47 PM
they already went through the trauma of Chain Banish and Magatsu

chain maron nerf and chain banish "nerf" are not the same thing though. banish/volg have never been explosions that multiplied with hitbox (except for less than 1.0) with the exception of JA/crit. placing them on WB never mattered because the damage was a reflection of what you put into them. chain banish/volg was bugged in the sense that it multiplied what went into the explosion by an additional 3-5x which imo was bad testing and not intentional. chain maron is not bugged, it's imbalanced.

doomdragon83
Apr 2, 2017, 04:35 PM
but people should realise that a game needs nerfs sometimes, and that is going to mean some of your investments will get nuked.
Needs nerfs? What is needed is foresight, on the devs part. They should have been able to see how things would play out if they release something like Marron to the playerbase, especially taking into consideration things that were an "issue" before like Weak Bullet, Chain Trigger (in this case) and any other legit combination of classes/skills from which "issues" could arise.

You don't just throw something new out into the game without thinking it through unless you're Sega apparently.

Altiea
Apr 2, 2017, 05:10 PM
Needs nerfs? What is needed is foresight, on the devs part. They should have been able to see how things would play out if they release something like Marron to the playerbase, especially taking into consideration things that were an "issue" before like Weak Bullet, Chain Trigger (in this case) and any other legit combination of classes/skills from which "issues" could arise.

You don't just throw something new out into the game without thinking it through unless you're Sega apparently.

Have you played MapleStory?

doomdragon83
Apr 2, 2017, 05:30 PM
Have you played MapleStory?

No. What about it?

Altiea
Apr 2, 2017, 05:35 PM
No. What about it?

MapleStory is notorious for adding new classes without actually balancing them first. Whenever a new class arrives, it's typically able to solo raid bosses that previously existing content has problems doing, then Nexon decides to apply the balance patches a month or two later.

I guess the point is that SEGA's not the only company that adds new things without thorough playtesting.

Xaelouse
Apr 2, 2017, 05:45 PM
You don't just throw something new out into the game without thinking it through unless you're Sega apparently.

The entire concept of Bouncer is still living proof of this.

echofaith
Apr 2, 2017, 05:46 PM
I played maple before, but I felt the new classes being OP was actually on purpose. Otherwise, most people wouldnt bother to play them over their already geared chars s:

doomdragon83
Apr 2, 2017, 06:00 PM
MapleStory is notorious for adding new classes without actually balancing them first. Whenever a new class arrives, it's typically able to solo raid bosses that previously existing content has problems doing, then Nexon decides to apply the balance patches a month or two later.

I guess the point is that SEGA's not the only company that adds new things without thorough playtesting.
Whenever I hear of Nexon, it's always in a negative light.
My point is that there would have been less of need to balance things if Sega took the time to think: "how would adding X affect our game?". They already had to deal with Chain Banish before and now another "problem" pops up in regards to CT, something that should have been nipped in the bud since Marron's conception. To think that some people should expect to have their builds ruined because some oaf at Sega couldn't be bothered to think ahead is awful. Players who come up with these builds do so from stuff already available to them.

GHNeko
Apr 2, 2017, 11:52 PM
chain maron nerf and chain banish "nerf" are not the same thing though. banish/volg have never been explosions that multiplied with hitbox (except for less than 1.0) with the exception of JA/crit. placing them on WB never mattered because the damage was a reflection of what you put into them. chain banish/volg was bugged in the sense that it multiplied what went into the explosion by an additional 3-5x which imo was bad testing and not intentional. chain maron is not bugged, it's imbalanced.


oh yeah i know.

i was making the comparison because the bug existed for a long time iirc and sega didnt do anything about it until new content was added and put chain banish in the spot light.

Ziel
Apr 3, 2017, 01:44 PM
Needs nerfs? What is needed is foresight, on the devs part. They should have been able to see how things would play out if they release something like Marron to the playerbase, especially taking into consideration things that were an "issue" before like Weak Bullet, Chain Trigger (in this case) and any other legit combination of classes/skills from which "issues" could arise.

You don't just throw something new out into the game without thinking it through unless you're Sega apparently.

Well heres a few examples from well known games where they HAD to patch shit up

WoW example (of many):
[SPOILER-BOX]There was a video posted on YouTube a few years back where a paladin killed, in one move, a raid boss designed for dozens of players to take several minutes to bring down. The Reckoning talent had the effect that when a paladin was struck they might gain a stack of Reckoning, causing their next attack to hit twice. One enterprising player dueled a rogue many times without ever striking back, then went up to the boss in question and proceeded to hit it more than a thousand times in one blow. Within twenty four hours the talent was nerfed so that it caused you to hit twice for the next few attacks. Of course, seeing as Reckoning was about the only ability in the entire game that possessed neither stack limit nor duration, this was only to be expected.[/SPOILER-BOX]

The worst offender of all is of course Absolute Virtue in FFXI, long wall o´ text ahead warning, but worth the entertainment:
[SPOILER-BOX] Absolute Virtue, who is for all intents and purposes totally invincible due to his ability to use the most powerful abilities of every job, as well as cast high-level black magic that players don't even have access to instantaneously and frequently, wiping out alliances of players in seconds. Every time a method is discovered to defeat him, Square-Enix will immediately squash it by giving Absolute Virtue new resistances and powers as his flaws were discovered.

-When players killed him by attacking him from areas he couldn't fight back, the developers gave him the ability to draw players to him if they got too far away.

-Later on, the devs were pressured into rethinking the absurd difficulty of some of their bosses after some bad publicity involving an 18-hour-long fight against a different monster, so they lowered the HP of both that boss and Absolute Virtue and forced them to despawn if not defeated within two hours. Players discovered that a legion of Dark Knights using a combination of the job ability Souleater (consumes HP to increase damage dealt) and Blood Weapon (restores HP equal to melee damage inflicted), he could be bumrushed into defeat. Within days, a patch was made that gave Absolute Virtue (and ONLY Absolute Virtue - other monsters that had previously been defeated with this method were totally untouched) increasing resistance to Souleater damage, making it useless.

-A theoretical method of defeating him involved using the Scholar's Helix line of spells, which deal a fairly large amount of damage over time. The helix was placed on the enemy, and then a group of Scholars simultaneously use a job ability that doubles the damage dealt by the next tic of damage while halving its overall duration. The result is that most enemies in the game will drop dead immediately, although execution requires very precise timing (and, in most cases, botting). As soon as people discussed how it could be used to defeat Absolute Virtue, "certain notorious monsters" were given a resistance to the use of the JA. Guess who was at the top of the priority list?[/SPOILER-BOX]

You can never have enough foresight to predict how between thousands of people someone finds a way to fuck the meta or experiments with a build your beta testers never did because everyone´s playstyle is different even if your job is to test a game with few months to do so (if any) hence why open betas are popular; things like these are specially egregius in games like LoL and Dota where new items intended for a purpose end up ridiculously overpowering something else and get either reworked or removed.

Anyone remembers that bug in PSO2 that allowed people to move npcs around the lobby and got banned for reporting it?

I still find it ridiculous that a damage utility of a class works better on other classes than on the intended one.

Dark Emerald EXE
Apr 3, 2017, 02:14 PM
The entire concept of Bouncer is still living proof of this.

Bouncer? Broken? When?

Unless I'm forgetting that time where that happened....

D-Inferno
Apr 3, 2017, 02:23 PM
Bouncer was extremely weak as a main class outside of Niren Orochi at launch, and even that was situational. Plus the tech aspect of the class didn't work at all since subbing Te gave you jack for damage.

Xiriko
Apr 3, 2017, 05:24 PM
I just find it rather funny that they decide to nerf a whole mechanic because of a class combo with a specific pet. Making CT's multiplier lower depending on the weapon you'd use (highest being TMG since it's a gu skill) would seem a better choice I guess?

I just can't stop imagining their logic in my head:

Boss: "Su/Gu is throwing pillows for millions of damage by abbusing party WB and CT, what ya think we should do?"
Employee 1 "Nerf CT"
Employee 2 "Nerf max damage for every class in the game?"
Employee 3 "How about we just nerf Su since it's supposed to be a class designed for new players and not a huge power creep?"

Guess who gets thrown out of the window.

This seems like the typical patchwork from SEGA where they fix a small problem by screwing everyone up, it's kinda getting old in my opinion... I'm kinda curious on how the japanese community is reacting to these new nerfs.

Shinamori
Apr 3, 2017, 06:10 PM
Funny thing, Su/Gu was listed as on of the recommended subs for Su in their player's guide.

GHNeko
Apr 4, 2017, 12:20 AM
Funny thing, Su/Gu was listed as on of the recommended subs for Su in their player's guide.

That was outsourced iirc.


Bouncer was extremely weak as a main class outside of Niren Orochi at launch, and even that was situational. Plus the tech aspect of the class didn't work at all since subbing Te gave you jack for damage.

>tfw FiBo gives you good tech and melee damage

Kreygasm

Altiea
Apr 4, 2017, 12:22 AM
>tfw FiBo gives you good tech and melee damage

Kreygasm

I think you forgot the use of the term "main class"...

GHNeko
Apr 4, 2017, 12:31 AM
I think you forgot the use of the term "main class"...

oh whoops. i guess i skimmed over that part lmao.

Xaelouse
Apr 4, 2017, 01:11 AM
Bouncer? Broken? When?

Unless I'm forgetting that time where that happened....

Broken as in it's a failed concept and they have no idea what to do with it. The bandaid called DB Snatch is basically the only thing making the class noteworthy at the moment, and that involves ramming yourself into the enemy over and over with 0 effort or thought. It doesn't really make for fun gameplay while still being worse than other melee once the fun time (PBF) is over. Whereas Jet Boots actually takes effort to use but has a lot less reward for some reason (and outright punishing if you use techs with reduced charged times since it only eats your PP quicker for less damage than most other things).

EP5 needs to do a overhaul to it and/or introduce a new bandaid skill that actually offers something to the MPA. After all, Bouncer was meant to be a class for party play. Yet even the likes of Chain Trigger encourages party play more.

Sandmind
Apr 4, 2017, 04:40 AM
I said it once long ago during EP3, but just having a skill on BO tree that enable elemental masteries from FO or TE to apply to JB's melee if the gear match the element would had gone a long way to make it more potent for BOTE and poor Saga's joke of a BOFO. And now with skill ring for dual class specific being a thing, it's still doable (outside of game code program'ing issue ofc). :wacko:

Mega Ultra Chicken
Apr 4, 2017, 07:39 AM
So SU/GU will be "useless" just because Marron's getting nerfed? And here I was using TMG > Torim/Aero for Chain Trigger. Why? Because Marron resets when you switch 'em out and... How the hell are you people getting Marron to maximum power in less than 5 seconds?

Nyansan
Apr 4, 2017, 07:56 AM
So SU/GU will be "useless" just because Marron's getting nerfed? And here I was using TMG > Torim/Aero for Chain Trigger. Why? Because Marron resets when you switch 'em out and... How the hell are you people getting Marron to maximum power in less than 5 seconds?

Charging Marron up to 2nd level then spamming uncharged safoie-0/razan or having dedicated chain builders in your party. And since the main point of SU/GU is to deal millions worth of damage to potentially 1hko a boss, capping the burst to 999k pretty much renders the whole point of SU/GU moot as any other class combinations can be more effective with sustained dps

Kondibon
Apr 4, 2017, 07:59 AM
How the hell are you people getting Marron to maximum power in less than 5 seconds?Probably the same way you're consistently getting torim spirals on chains. :wacko:

Joking aside, are you trying to say torim is more reliable for it? Because the whole reason Marron works so well with chain is because actually throwing it only takes 1 second, works at long range, and doesn't require the hitbox to be still for a full 5 seconds.

Dark Emerald EXE
Apr 4, 2017, 09:37 AM
*pops head in*

I can't speak on this personally since I haven't touched GU heavily since probably early half of Episode 3......

While I agree that CT for w/e reason seems to gotten more uses from stuff that is "not" TMG....... I do not agree they should nerf marron because of it.....

The bigger issue is if that 999,999 applies to maron only or damage as whole....which if it's just Deus Esca guess just mean it'll be harder to kill and can't just burst him down.

Ryuhou
Apr 4, 2017, 09:48 AM
TBH idgaf about a sugu nerf. I don't play any su so idc about it that way and some builds being op as hell is nothing new. Unless all op builds are nerfed nothing will really change.

Altiea
Apr 4, 2017, 09:55 AM
TBH idgaf about a sugu nerf. I don't play any su so idc about it that way and some builds being op as hell is nothing new. Unless all op builds are nerfed nothing will really change.

The problem is that this nerf adversely impacts sub GU CT builds and other builds that revolve around hitting higher than 999,999 for bursting raid bosses. It's the fact that other classes that aren't SU/GU are impacted that is rubbing people the wrong way.

Ryuhou
Apr 4, 2017, 12:30 PM
Not just su then but a ct nerf in general?
It's about damn time CT got nerfed. Stuff like CT and regular WB are the main reason for the total lack of balance between classes.

Of course, it's ironic that this causes CT to actually lower damage in some cases. For example Ilbarta can hit a few mil without CT and is a single hit, a FoGu would have considerably less damage.

Still, there are plenty ways to still make good use of CT with this damage cap because there are a number of multi hit pas/techs you can use.
Or does the damage cap apply to all hit during the finish window and not just per hit?

Bellion
Apr 4, 2017, 12:46 PM
It just caps the damage of a single hit to 999,999. Multi-hits lower than 999,999 won't be effected by the change. It's a damn shame that IF0 isn't going to be used for chains against any boss that will receive this damage cap implementation. IF0 with a good enough craft > Satellite Aim even on Gu/Hu and gave it something new rather than just Satellite Aim all day now with the Gu Stance ring.
This damage cap could also impact Banish Arrow/Volg Raptor combos that don't exactly need a chain to hit 999,999 on certain enemies/weakpoints. It's not as likely with more raid bosses not having a x2 damage modifier site and whatnot.

Shadowstarkirby
Apr 4, 2017, 12:51 PM
Bo doesn't have anything going for it over the other melees. Unless you wanna count hopping over TD walls effortlessly and being able to use basic support techs "something", lol. PBF being amazing is it's only saving grace really.

As for Su/Gu, not sure why it was left being as overpowered as it is for this long. While I don't see Su/Gu too much, it's hella noticable when one that pulls off a chain trigger is present. I check parser and see them doing 6m+ explosions in a burst on Mother, and that's not even including Zanverse. It's stupid as hell, not just because of the damage itself, but how easy it is to achieve, I mean why even play Gu main at that point when a bunny tosser does triple what you do with even less effort?

Marron was clearly the offender here.

Zephyrion
Apr 4, 2017, 01:01 PM
Not just su then but a ct nerf in general?
It's about damn time CT got nerfed. Stuff like CT and regular WB are the main reason for the total lack of balance between classes.

Of course, it's ironic that this causes CT to actually lower damage in some cases. For example Ilbarta can hit a few mil without CT and is a single hit, a FoGu would have considerably less damage.

Still, there are plenty ways to still make good use of CT with this damage cap because there are a number of multi hit pas/techs you can use.
Or does the damage cap apply to all hit during the finish window and not just per hit?

Damage cap should only apply to individual hits but applies to everything even outside of CT

old WB is infiniteIy more broken than CT is. the former is a straight 2.5x damage up for EVERYBODY after all. I don't see why people see CT as broken, actually. It's like everybody see the huge burst and go "this is OP", forgetting that :

- you lose DPS just because GU's damage multiplier aside from Perfect Keeper, are all limited to ranged attacks or to TMG use, which means whenever you're outside of chain you're losing quite a lot of damage (except SU/GU because it's hard to find multipliers working with SU, and those 20% here are not so far from most of the other multipliers working for the class)

- You lose DPS just by chain building. Most of the stronger /GU build actually take a bit of time building that chain, and all the time you spend building is time any other class combo could use to dish relevant damage (SU/GU is again an exception to this rule since it has access to Safoie/Ramegid Type 0)

- you can actually fail a CT finish, and unlike classes that have a constant stream of damage, failing even one means your DPS takes a very noticeable nosedive. (SU/GU hardly fails that because marron goes fast, far is single hit and can guard an incoming attack if needed)

-Taking all of that into account, BR/GU in organized MPA aside and SU/GU, /GU builds can at best get slightly better damage than easier and less limited builds, and on average, actually have less damage than most general builds. The latter are also a lot more versatile in general, hence why aside from SU/GU, you hardly see /GU builds in anything else than organized MPAs already (and even there they're not that common, really)

Chain can only make broken bursts more broken, and Marron burst is probably the strongest burst of damage the game has ever seen. It's incredibly potent even without GU sub, Putting a damage cap or nerfing CT is just a lazy way of not having to deal with actual balancing for SU and pets (and you know the class needs it when you see current pet usage : marron army, 1 Aero, 1 pet for mobbing purposes, and throw the rest to the trash)

aiMute
Apr 4, 2017, 02:06 PM
RIP bbow Br

Vatallus
Apr 4, 2017, 06:27 PM
You can't really call it a Maron nerf or CT nerf imo. There are other ways to hit over 999,999 without either of those two. Anything that can hit over 999,999 is going to be affected by this change.

Instead of them looking at why Maron is used so much, or why people are using CT with non gunner weapons, they just throw a blanket nerf and hit everyone with it. Some examples of other things that could hit over 999,999 in the right conditions are:

Non CT Banish Arrow
Non CT Vol Graptor
Final hit of Il Barta
Namegid

I've seen a video of a player hitting Bal Rodos with Backhand Smash for 999,999+. So I'm sure the same can be done to Vibrace.

There is obviously more but I think I made my point. Not only SU/GU or Maron is getting hit. Not only CT is getting hit. A lot of things and situations are getting hit with this. Deus Esca will be the first instance of it and if it is anything like the Weak Bullet jamming then we'll see it everywhere in future content also.

I would suggest a Maron nerf or CT rebalance for non gunners before doing such a blanket nerf, but Sega probably doesn't want to listen to the "but ma playstyle!!11!!!11" complaints anymore.

rsod
Apr 4, 2017, 07:53 PM
Is there any confirmation that deus will or will not require level 80/80?

Altiea
Apr 4, 2017, 07:54 PM
Is there any confirmation that deus will or will not require level 80/80?

No 80/80. That won't arrive for quite a while.

Xaelouse
Apr 4, 2017, 08:46 PM
If something requires 80/80 they would have mentioned it way beforehand

Gestriden
Apr 4, 2017, 11:08 PM
You can't really call it a Maron nerf or CT nerf imo. There are other ways to hit over 999,999 without either of those two. Anything that can hit over 999,999 is going to be affected by this change.

Instead of them looking at why Maron is used so much, or why people are using CT with non gunner weapons, they just throw a blanket nerf and hit everyone with it. Some examples of other things that could hit over 999,999 in the right conditions are:

Non CT Banish Arrow
Non CT Vol Graptor
Final hit of Il Barta
Namegid

I've seen a video of a player hitting Bal Rodos with Backhand Smash for 999,999+. So I'm sure the same can be done to Vibrace.

There is obviously more but I think I made my point. Not only SU/GU or Maron is getting hit. Not only CT is getting hit. A lot of things and situations are getting hit with this. Deus Esca will be the first instance of it and if it is anything like the Weak Bullet jamming then we'll see it everywhere in future content also.

I would suggest a Maron nerf or CT rebalance for non gunners before doing such a blanket nerf, but Sega probably doesn't want to listen to the "but ma playstyle!!11!!!11" complaints anymore.


I think you're missing the part where the first sentence already stated that they're overhauling chain marons for Episode 5 which is the nerf part of the news.

Altiea
Apr 4, 2017, 11:19 PM
I think it's because in the short term, it's unhealthy for the game. If the cap sticks for future content, it could be bad, but if this is literally a temporary "band-aid" fix that will be removed later on, maybe there won't be so much controversy.

Ryuhou
Apr 5, 2017, 08:04 AM
Ah thanks, so nothing I really need to worry about. TBH I'm satisfied if I can do 999.999 damage with a CT even if it's a single hit PA / tech.
And even if CT+Ilbarta is pointless now, CT + Barantsion is still a ton of damage.

Well, mainly because I saw people do absurd things with it. You should not be able to take down a final boss (like Luther) in one CT with only a second person supplying WB and nothing else.

Of course there are a variety of op things in the game that all need to be fixed to create something resembling balance (like aforementioned CT + Compound tech actually).

In the end, this nerf should not actually a problem for anyone except people that must finish Magatsu in 30 seconds or stuff like that. You can beat Magatsu in a very short time without CT users with other classes and even with 8 people and no WB I've beat him in 4-5 minutes, not like the absurd damage from CT is actually necessary.
But it destroys all balance when some people can kill bosses this fast when the majority are casuals that have trouble beating the boss in the first place.

Altiea
Apr 5, 2017, 01:23 PM
Ah thanks, so nothing I really need to worry about. TBH I'm satisfied if I can do 999.999 damage with a CT even if it's a single hit PA / tech.
And even if CT+Ilbarta is pointless now, CT + Barantsion is still a ton of damage.

Well, mainly because I saw people do absurd things with it. You should not be able to take down a final boss (like Luther) in one CT with only a second person supplying WB and nothing else.

Of course there are a variety of op things in the game that all need to be fixed to create something resembling balance (like aforementioned CT + Compound tech actually).

In the end, this nerf should not actually a problem for anyone except people that must finish Magatsu in 30 seconds or stuff like that. You can beat Magatsu in a very short time without CT users with other classes and even with 8 people and no WB I've beat him in 4-5 minutes, not like the absurd damage from CT is actually necessary.
But it destroys all balance when some people can kill bosses this fast when the majority are casuals that have trouble beating the boss in the first place.

The thing is that Chain Banish setups are very hard to do outside of organized play. You will pretty much never see Chain Banish ever performed by "accident", if you will, and the strat is difficult to execute properly in the sense that it's somewhat inconsistent. Sure, you can nuke a raid boss in two minutes, but how much time do you need to spend actually doing it right?

Zephyrion
Apr 6, 2017, 03:22 AM
Ah thanks, so nothing I really need to worry about. TBH I'm satisfied if I can do 999.999 damage with a CT even if it's a single hit PA / tech.
And even if CT+Ilbarta is pointless now, CT + Barantsion is still a ton of damage.

Well, mainly because I saw people do absurd things with it. You should not be able to take down a final boss (like Luther) in one CT with only a second person supplying WB and nothing else.

Of course there are a variety of op things in the game that all need to be fixed to create something resembling balance (like aforementioned CT + Compound tech actually).

In the end, this nerf should not actually a problem for anyone except people that must finish Magatsu in 30 seconds or stuff like that. You can beat Magatsu in a very short time without CT users with other classes and even with 8 people and no WB I've beat him in 4-5 minutes, not like the absurd damage from CT is actually necessary.
But it destroys all balance when some people can kill bosses this fast when the majority are casuals that have trouble beating the boss in the first place.

Also don't forget that most of the bosses you're talking about are vastly outdated compared to current gear, even in XH : I love Loser, but poor guy can be soloed in 5 minutes or so by a vast majority of the usual combo classes out there, and a BR/RA guy downed it in 50 seconds solo. It's just Loser being too weak to anything ranged, not having enough HP, and being stunned in such a variety of ways that it can pretty much be killed before even moving an inch. Magatsu suffers from the same stunlock issue (and wb still not being jammed for those makes the issue even more glaring), hence why more recent raid bosses like Mother and PD are more scripted, harder to stun, don't have readily accessible weak points, and WB has been jammed for those.