Thoughts on ranger´s upcoming Nerf?

[MightyHarken]

I understand nerfing weak bullet. But why the lack of boost to the class that owns it since it´s the most affected one by this? Thoughts?

[Saagonsa]

I understand nerfing weak bullet. But why the lack of boost to the class that owns it since it´s the most affected one by this? Thoughts?

It is getting buffs, though? WHA1&2 will now work on any point with weak bullet on it, regardless of the actual weakness/resistance of the target. Considering anything relevant has had jammed WB for a long time, this is honestly a buff to ranger itself. Rifle is also getting some PA buffs that might be notable depending on how big they are.

[sheen20]

I'm wondering, by "jamming" do you mean that each monster can only have one weak bullet point? Or that the modifier is forced to 255% regardless? Does this mean monsters can have multiple weak bullet points after the update?

[TehCubey]

It's not a nerf. It's making sure content can actually be cleared without a ranger around, acting as a WB slave. Something which Sega was inching towards doing for a long time but only now is ready to commit.

If anything it allows the RA to be something else than the aforementioned WB slave.

[Calsetes]

I'm wondering, by "jamming" do you mean that each monster can only have one weak bullet point? Or that the modifier is forced to 255% regardless? Does this mean monsters can have multiple weak bullet points after the update?

I think "jamming" is when the hit part is purple, showing that WB is "resisted," meaning the damage bonus itself is reduced over what it normally is.

But that's an assumption on my part.

[Icefrenzy]

As a long time Ranger I personally approve the nerf for WB in exchange for buff for other PAs and other bullets. More play-styles the merrier!

[Anduril]

I think "jamming" is when the hit part is purple, showing that WB is "resisted," meaning the damage bonus itself is reduced over what it normally is.

But that's an assumption on my part.
That is indeed what WB jamming is; on Bosses that have it, it brings WB's multiplier down to 120% from 255%. Essentially, this nerf is just bringing WB down to the modifier of the jammed version.

[Selphea]

Even against bosses with WB jamming, Ranger is still a solid class that can top parses just by spamming End Attract/Satellite Cannon/Parallel-0. For solo, it's not like you even need WB to oneshot free field bosses. The big problem imo is pub TDs and shooting down infected jets but otherwise power creep has grown enough that it's OK.

Loading more WBs is amazing for quality of life though. Overall it's a buff IMO, although I need to pay last respects to my dying Fi/Ra build.

[Mattykins]

But they're buffing Sneak Shooter! That'll be a nice boost to your dps :D

[mickbis]

More like SEGA tried to free RA from bring WB Slave

[arokidaaron]

More like SEGA tried to free RA from bring WB Slave

Basically this. It's not really a nerf, since they're lowering the recast time + more bullets, and making sure old and new content wouldn't require WB to clear a quest, remember magatsu? remember how WB dependent it is? People would leave the MPA if there were no rangers around.

[escarlata]

It's not a nerf. All current relevant bosses already has WB jamming anyway. And all old bosses that needed WB to kill basically had their HP to compensate. I thought some time back when WB was just a thing the community was like we might as well just nerf all WB to 120% and drop old boss hp, buff Ra PA to compensate. That is exactly what they did and now ppl are screaming nerf?!

[Vatallus]

"Nerf". I don't think you know what you are talking about. Most relevant content these days has WB jamming in it. The new WB multiplier is exactly the same as what the multiplier is when you see that purple WB marker.

In the long run these changes are a buff to ranger.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Not a nerf. A necessary, and long overdue adjustment for the game as a whole. One of the few things I really would give sega props for.

[[Ayumi]]

Maybe I can like Ranger now... even with the lack of Twin Mechs.
Didn't like being depended on all the time for WB.

[MightyHarken]

It's not a nerf. All current relevant bosses already has WB jamming anyway. And all old bosses that needed WB to kill basically had their HP to compensate. I thought some time back when WB was just a thing the community was like we might as well just nerf all WB to 120% and drop old boss hp, buff Ra PA to compensate. That is exactly what they did and now ppl are screaming nerf?!

They buffed non relevant PA´s. Whoop-de-doo? What am I going to do with a stronger grenade shell now, try to replace launchers? Or use sneak shooter to replace EA or SC? I would say buff SC to it´s former glory as a compensation and I´m set, lol.

[Saagonsa]

They buffed non relevant PA´s. Whoop-de-doo? What am I going to do with a stronger grenade shell now, try to replace launchers? Or use sneak shooter to replace EA or SC? I would say buff SC to it´s former glory as a compensation and I´m set, lol.

Depending on how big the buff is, sneak shooter might actually be relevant, so

[MightyHarken]

[QUOTE=Saagonsa;3423433]Depending on how big the buff is, sneak shooter might actually be relevant, so[/QUOTE

Mybe you´re right. There are some targets that SC can´t reach and EA can´t hit multiple times. Still; SC buff is long overdue.

[escarlata]

They buffed non relevant PA´s. Whoop-de-doo? What am I going to do with a stronger grenade shell now, try to replace launchers? Or use sneak shooter to replace EA or SC? I would say buff SC to it´s former glory as a compensation and I´m set, lol.
Still, no relevant buff doesn't make it a nerf. In fact, I thought EA was gonna get a nerf for sure. Piercing Shell, Impact Slider and Sneak Shooter buffs are relevant tho, considering those are still situationally useful.

[Alenoir]

They buffed non relevant PA´s. Whoop-de-doo? What am I going to do with a stronger grenade shell now, try to replace launchers? Or use sneak shooter to replace EA or SC? I would say buff SC to it´s former glory as a compensation and I´m set, lol.

Um, EA and SC are not nerfed? Why would you need to replace their usage with SS?

[LancerFate]

First idk why its nerf ? since WB jamming, all new content was with WB jamming, so to not confuse new players, it's good decision to simple make it 120% ( which is already alot imo ). Also many AR PA's got power buff, it's clearly Ranger buff (specially for AR ).

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

First idk why its nerf ? since WB jamming, all new content was with WB jamming, so to not confuse new players, it's good decision to simple make it 120% ( which is already alot imo ). Also many AR PA's got power buff, it's clearly Ranger buff (specially for AR ).

Plus it was accompanied by HP nerfs for several EQ bosses that people were known to drop out if there was no weak bullet in the opening 10 seconds (magatsu).

I've said it years ago when Luther first came out: Weak bullet was the mathematical difference between a 21 minute fight, and a 7 minute fight. Boss fights, and the Ra class should never have been balanced around a 300% (later lowered to 255%) damage boost which can possibly be entirely absent.

[Hysteria1987]

...the Ra class should never have been balanced around a 300% (later lowered to 255%) damage boost which can possibly be entirely absent.That really was an incredible boost when comparing to other games, where stuff like our new, low 120% is enormous. I hope this is a move towards better balance, because this game was getting exponentially out of control. It must have been hard to manage, this enormous potential damage difference between players.

On the original PSO you started doing maybe 50 damage per hit, and perhaps 1000 per hit end game - much less damage variance, much easier to plan bosses from the dev point of view. I know we all like our big numbers but I wouldn't complain if we went back to a system like that.

[MightyHarken]

Me neither to be honest. But it seems you guys are forgetting something. You say 120% is an enourmous boost. But remember that the first number doesn´t count. So, it´s about a 20% damage boost. When before, it gave an actual 155% damage boost. I still say we should get a buff to EA and SC since its our main dps PA´s. Not buffing those but making other previously useless PA´s will just add more ways of doing the same damage, when the point is to compensate for the loss.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Me neither to be honest. But it seems you guys are forgetting something. You say 120% is an enourmous boost. But remember that the first number doesn´t count. So, it´s about a 20% damage boost. When before, it gave an actual 155% damage boost. I still say we should get a buff to EA and SC since its our main dps PA´s. Not buffing those but making other previously useless PA´s will just add more ways of doing the same damage, when the point is to compensate for the loss.

They're sorta doing the same thing with many classes. Overused attacks are generally left alone, or even nerfed, while attacks some of us literally haven't used in years are getting buffs.

Look at what they're doing for katanas for example. They're not touching Guren, and Sakura 0 is only getting a pp cost reduction. Most other attacks are seeing boosts in power, speed, and pp cost reductions at the same time.

[Vatallus]

What loss? Have you not paid attention at all? That 120% is exactly the same multiplier that you are getting now in newer content when you see that purple weak bullet. All they are doing is making it flat across the board while giving Ranger other buffs. Do you really need that 255% to do older content still? Do you still need it for free explore and arks missions? Even enemies in EP4 story missions had WB jamming. All newer content except Rainy Day 2017 has had WB jamming. They even specifically said they would remove WB jamming after they change Ranger's WB multiplier to 120%.

While buffing Ranger with PA buffs, making any WB mark count for Weak Hit, and some sort of buff to the other types of shots that we still need to see.

[arokidaaron]

Not to mention lower CD time and more bullets.

[reinforcers]

nope its not a nerf, there are rangers not even using WB and able to do many things anyway. for me its more an eye opener to play ranger at other style not just simply WB on every circumstances, beside, there are PAs that get buff, even launcher damage get buff, and monster also got balanced too

[Saagonsa]

Me neither to be honest. But it seems you guys are forgetting something. You say 120% is an enourmous boost. But remember that the first number doesn´t count. So, it´s about a 20% damage boost. When before, it gave an actual 155% damage boost. I still say we should get a buff to EA and SC since its our main dps PA´s. Not buffing those but making other previously useless PA´s will just add more ways of doing the same damage, when the point is to compensate for the loss.

So did you not know that the blue WB you've been seeing in every quest since PD is 20%?

[Ryuhou]

After 2 years or so ra is finally getting fixed. Regular WB is op but jammed / nerfed is just right cause 20% is a good mpa boost but not mandatory like before.
Also, instead of burst damage it gets turned into a sustainable bread & butter skill.
Combined with it proccing WHA and the pa buffs, ra is actually getting stronger. Just no more oneshotting bosses but for longer fights and quests ra should performer overall better than before, WHA is a massive damage boost itself.

Also, it won't be relying nearly as much on headshots anymore so you don't need mad fps skillz to be a good ra anymore.

[Calsetes]

I'll say it - I frequently use Sneak Shooter on my ranger. It does.... it does a lot of damage without the long charge time needed, low PP cost, and without the risk of "missing" if the mob's moving around a lot or gets "knocked" out of the beam's blast.

Big things - Satellite Cannon, totally.

Groups - Gravity Bomb, and End Attract, of course.

Individual monsters - Sneak Shooter. Seriously, I hit for anywhere from 10k to.... I think my highest was maybe close to 80k? Given I'm not using high-end ultra-upgraded equipment, I don't think that's too shabby for a single shot costing 20ish PP that can be fired off in less than a second.

[[Ayumi]]

I'll say it - I frequently use Sneak Shooter on my ranger. It does.... it does a lot of damage without the long charge time needed, low PP cost, and without the risk of "missing" if the mob's moving around a lot or gets "knocked" out of the beam's blast.

Big things - Satellite Cannon, totally.

Groups - Gravity Bomb, and End Attract, of course.

Individual monsters - Sneak Shooter. Seriously, I hit for anywhere from 10k to.... I think my highest was maybe close to 80k? Given I'm not using high-end ultra-upgraded equipment, I don't think that's too shabby for a single shot costing 20ish PP that can be fired off in less than a second.

I personally use End Attract on big things due to the multiple hard hits it do charged. It's also faster charging than Sat. Cannon.
Groups I'm going to use a launcher.
Individual will get whatever it's needed at the time. I should try Sneak Shooter in that situation I see. OF course anything under SH is going to get One Point or Paralell Slider.

[escarlata]

Sneak shooter has always been a pretty amazing PA (which ppl are ignoring because everyone is mindlessly spamming EA).
According to swiki, Sneak shooter actually has pretty obscene DPS, which is actually only beaten by SatCan and Para-0. EA needs to land 2 hits in a single charge to actually just break even, and 3 hits to actually beat its dps.

[Alenoir]

I'll say it - I frequently use Sneak Shooter on my ranger. It does.... it does a lot of damage without the long charge time needed, low PP cost, and without the risk of "missing" if the mob's moving around a lot or gets "knocked" out of the beam's blast.

Last time I did played RA seriously (somewhere during the Yamato rush), SS still misses. =\

Also, try TPSing End Attract against big bosses with a lot of hit points. Use the TPS Foie tactic (juuuuust fly it across the hit boxes). Darker wall for example. (http://i.imgur.com/6lNszu0.jpg)

[Calsetes]

SS has a slower bullet, so it can miss - especially if you're aiming at a small target moving around a lot (not a small enemy, a small target - say, the "nose" of the Quartz Dragon when you're not facing him head-on, for example.)

[MightyHarken]

I'll say it - I frequently use Sneak Shooter on my ranger. It does.... it does a lot of damage without the long charge time needed, low PP cost, and without the risk of "missing" if the mob's moving around a lot or gets "knocked" out of the beam's blast.

Big things - Satellite Cannon, totally.

Groups - Gravity Bomb, and End Attract, of course.

Individual monsters - Sneak Shooter. Seriously, I hit for anywhere from 10k to.... I think my highest was maybe close to 80k? Given I'm not using high-end ultra-upgraded equipment, I don't think that's too shabby for a single shot costing 20ish PP that can be fired off in less than a second.

For mobs you should always be using a launcher tbh. EA always hits 2-x times depending on the boss. So you should always use EA for DPS when convenient and dependng on the spot you´re attacking. SC should always be the choice for targets that can only be hit once or twice with EA. I use Sneak shooter mostly to drop in standing snipe position. Parallel slider type-0 would be a better option than sneak shooter as dps for some bosses thanks to the movility and the 100% accurracy.

We´ll see how things go. Though in the state where WB is going to be, I would rather have another skill that buffs ranger by that 20% for a limited time upon activation. Say.. Power bullets. 6 charges, 90 sec cooldown- each load gives you 20 seconds of 20% damage boost. Just a random unpolished thought.

[Saagonsa]

For mobs you should always be using a launcher tbh. EA always hits 2-x times depending on the boss. So you should always use EA for DPS when convenient and dependng on the spot you´re attacking. SC should always be the choice for targets that can only be hit once or twice with EA. I use Sneak shooter mostly to drop in standing snipe position. Parallel slider type-0 would be a better option than sneak shooter as dps for some bosses thanks to the movility and the 100% accurracy.

We´ll see how things go. Though in the state where WB is going to be, I would rather have another skill that buffs ranger by that 20% for a limited time upon activation. Say.. Power bullets. 6 charges, 90 sec cooldown- each load gives you 20 seconds of 20% damage boost. Just a random unpolished thought.

Actually, parallel is better dps than 2hit EA, and sneak shooter isn't that far behind. Considering that sneak shooter is one of the PAs being buffed, it might be the new PA to use on a point where SC won't work and EA will hit only twice.

[Ryuhou]

SS has a slower bullet, so it can miss - especially if you're aiming at a small target moving around a lot (not a small enemy, a small target - say, the "nose" of the Quartz Dragon when you're not facing him head-on, for example.)
This.
Especially with lockon (I heard SS behaves differently in tps mode) it misses such targets more often than not and becomes worthless due to the low overall damage.
SS already has very high damage, raising that changes nothing but fixing the absurdly slow bullet speed(slower than some other pas, even EA) would make it far better.
Then again, feels like ranger is actively trying to make not using tps mode as bad possible.

[Zephyrion]

Actually, parallel is better dps than 2hit EA, and sneak shooter isn't that far behind. Considering that sneak shooter is one of the PAs being buffed, it might be the new PA to use on a point where SC won't work and EA will hit only twice.

While Sneak shooter is indeed a fairly strong PA, people are completely overlooking the PP side of things here. Sneak Shooter has indeed great DPS, but it's far more taxing on the PP than a series of two-hits EA. As it was said earlier, it's mostly used to proc standing snipe into SC or EA. Parallel Slider, for the same reason is more of a positioning and utility PA for short stun windows than a tool for damage, simply because the PP cost is far too great to use it in that regard.

[Calsetes]

What? Sneak Shooter I could swear is only 20ish PP, while I thought End Attract was closer to 30-ish. I'll double-check the numbers when I get home, but I swear I get more SS shots out of 120 PP than I do EA shots.

[isCasted]

Of course you would, it's a much faster PA than EA, but it burns through PP faster because of that. Lower cost per use doesn't compensate enough for usage frequency, so it's higher cost over time.

[AzurEnd]

I kinda just see Sneak Shooter like a Back Hand Smash on Knuckles. You use it when you wanna just do a ton of reliable damage really quickly and empty out your PP Gauge.

[Zephyrion]

The thing is, Sneak shooter is faster, but less damage per PA, so you need to shoot 2-3 to reach the DPS of a double-hit EA

EA is 30PP while Sneak is 20 sure, but you'd need at least two sneak shooters to reach the damage of one EA, which means you're effectively killing your PP faster

[Selphea]

Isn't Sneak Shooter for setting up Standing Snipe + TAJA + TAJAPPS on EA though :wacko:

[MightyHarken]

Isn't Sneak Shooter for setting up Standing Snipe + TAJA + TAJAPPS on EA though :wacko:

Exactly that. Which is why I can´t understand people here saying sneak shooter will save rangers from the wb nerf, lol. Like I said before. If they really want to compensate ranger, they need to buff SC at least. Return it to it´s former glory.

[Saagonsa]

Uhm, if something gets a damage buff, that means its DPS and DPP both go up. While it obviously won't have the DPP of 2hit EA no matter what, that doesn't matter much considering how easy it is to regen PP on ranger. It's not a saving grace for ranger or anything but it's not like ranger needs much of a saving grace as is.

[Xaelouse]

We need hard numbers to figure if the damage buff is meaninigful or not
As of what we know now, it gets i-frames unlike Piercing Shell and does one big hit unlike PSlider-0

[Zorak000]

I don't understand how people here are saying ranger is being nerfed

the only nerf is to ranger in content that doesn't matter anymore. oh no elder will die in 2 minutes instead of 1; we would have yet to see is how much they are reducing magatsu's HP to compensate for this though.

not to mention, WHA is getting buffed against anything that had a shooting damage resistance in quests where WB jamming was active. currently, WB Jamming was enough to make WHA proc as long as the enemy's shooting damage modifier was at least 1.0x. so anything that had 0.9x shooting damage or less would make WHA not work. soon, WHA will work as long as there is a WB on the hitbox, as well as anywhere it already normally does. from there, the cooldown is going to be lower and we will have more WB charges to fire; the website notes that Weak Bullet level 8 will be identical to the current Weak Bullet level 10 in terms of cooldown and number of bullets

[MightyHarken]

We need hard numbers to figure if the damage buff is meaninigful or not
As of what we know now, it gets i-frames unlike Piercing Shell and does one big hit unlike PSlider-0

You´re right. I just think that ranger being a high risk high reward class that needs to stand in a single spot without moving as much as a finger is getting his best skill nerfed. Without a meaningful buff to its damage. If anything, make standing snipe ring to lower the time you need to be standing still by half.

[MightyHarken]

I don't understand how people here are saying ranger is being nerfed

the only nerf is to ranger in content that doesn't matter anymore. oh no elder will die in 2 minutes instead of 1; we would have yet to see is how much they are reducing magatsu's HP to compensate for this though.

not to mention, WHA is getting buffed against anything that had a shooting damage resistance in quests where WB jamming was active. currently, WB Jamming was enough to make WHA proc as long as the enemy's shooting damage modifier was at least 1.0x. so anything that had 0.9x shooting damage or less would make WHA not work. soon, WHA will work as long as there is a WB on the hitbox, as well as anywhere it already normally does. from there, the cooldown is going to be lower and we will have more WB charges to fire; the website notes that Weak Bullet level 8 will be identical to the current Weak Bullet level 10 in terms of cooldown and number of bullets

Not sure where you got this information, any source? Bumped didnt say anything like this.

[Zorak000]

Not sure where you got this information, any source? Bumped didnt say anything like this.
got it straight from the horse's mouth

http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=11331

※弱点部位に対して効果が適用される、従来の仕様に変更はありません。（2017年6月12日 19:40 追記）

they added that note later when they realized people thought WHA was ONLY going to work with WB'd hitboxes, to clear up that confusion. WHA will work like it normally does, but now it will ALWAYS work on a wb'd hitbox, no matter how much the target is resisting.

[Saagonsa]

I just think that ranger being a high risk high reward class that needs to stand in a single spot without moving as much as a finger is getting his best skill nerfed.

What skill is getting nerfed?

[Anduril]

What skill is getting nerfed?

They are reducing Weak Bullet's multiplier down to 120% plus they are also increasing the number of Weak Bullet shots you can hold and reducing the cooldown time on the skill. It's not really a nerf since that is the multiplier that WB gives on most XH bosses now anyway, and they are just bringing it in line with that instead of having Weak Bullet Jamming.

[Saagonsa]

They are reducing Weak Bullet's multiplier down to 120% plus they are also increasing the number of Weak Bullet shots you can hold and reducing the cooldown time on the skill. It's not really a nerf since that is the multiplier that WB gives on most XH bosses now anyway, and they are just bringing it in line with that instead of having Weak Bullet Jamming.

Yeah, exactly. It isn't actually a nerf, so it's weird to portray it as one.

[MightyHarken]

got it straight from the horse's mouth

http://pso2.jp/players/news/?id=11331

※弱点部位に対して効果が適用される、従来の仕様に変更はありません。（2017年6月12日 19:40 追記）

they added that note later when they realized people thought WHA was ONLY going to work with WB'd hitboxes, to clear up that confusion. WHA will work like it normally does, but now it will ALWAYS work on a wb'd hitbox, no matter how much the target is resisting.


Ah, well this makes me feel a lot better now. If this is real; Then it won´t hit us that bad. Btw, does anyone know if other weapons are als getting an advanced form like swords, tmgs and talis?

[Ryuhou]

I kinda just see Sneak Shooter like a Back Hand Smash on Knuckles. You use it when you wanna just do a ton of reliable damage really quickly and empty out your PP Gauge.
What?
How do you get it to be reliable? I can't ._.
I have trouble even hitting mobs with the low bullet speed, unless the target is almost in melee range I miss easily. Is it maybe related to ping?