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View Full Version : PSO2 Jumping and PSO2



Akakomuma
Oct 17, 2017, 05:47 PM
As much as I love jumping in video games, I've been questioning for a while if this negatively impacts PSO2 in comparison to previous online Phantasy Star games. Your first thought might be that jumping is generally an instant benefit to any action based video game, but I think I feel differently.

When you add jumping to an action based game, that opens up a plethora of options for the player to attack and engage the enemy. It in turn requires more effort and thought put into the enemies themselves because they have to be able to handle all of the possibilities the player is capable of with jumping.

I notice games like Dynasty Warriors never add jumping, and it in turn allows them to focus on a very polished ground based combat system that feels very nice to play without many issues occurring. With PSO2 in comparison to PSU, I honestly feel as if jumping makes fights less entertaining due to the style of game PSO2 is. If it were more like Devil May Cry with all the options you have in the air, and enemies that react in ways to it and it wasn't as slow, I'd enjoy it more. But as of right now, it feels like the enemies suffer in design for it and it's essentially "What if PSU had jumping?" and not enough effort put into aerial combat.

MightyHarken
Oct 17, 2017, 06:47 PM
Overall the problem is that the diffculty of PSO2 has diminished over the years. You should have played 4 years ago. Content was somewhat challenging. A new planet and a new boss were good. Soloing a SH boss was a thing to be proud of. Sega promised challenging content for pro-players. So look forward to that.

Dragwind
Oct 17, 2017, 06:59 PM
I think it added an extra layer to gameplay that enhanced it in a sense. Sure, it feels a little clunky at times but overall I think it was a good addition. I don't think it affected difficulty all that much, unless you're a new player for instance and trying to figure out how to fight Magatsu.

SteveCZ
Oct 17, 2017, 08:25 PM
Jumping in PSO2 has more effects on bigger enemies (Harkotan giants, mini/big and raid bosses) and aerial combat like Twin Dagger and Dual Blade.

For example, for melee, hitting marmoth weakpoint is quite a pain without jumping or in position of the same height as its weakpoint, or to break the breakable parts first to make it tilt to the front a bit, revealing more weakpoints to hit to. You can't do this without jumping.

I don't expect all enemies to be vulnerable nor powerless to jump feature, but there are enemies that you can have better advantage by jumping, especially for melee classes, and I think that's good enough for me. Just like photon arts, we don't always jump for all things, and not all enemies can be easily killed just by jumping except Hero and its infinitely sustainable air positioning.

Even Force that is quite a long range needs to jump sometimes to reach something that is designed that can be hit by jumping. Time Attack quests are good examples for these, cause obstacles and enemy position matters as well, not just the enemies.

Zorak000
Oct 17, 2017, 08:48 PM
I have two arguments as to why jumping is good:

Exhibit A:
https://imgur.com/f59i51z

Exhibit B:
https://imgur.com/bw0Dxjt

Dragwind
Oct 17, 2017, 09:08 PM
I have two arguments as to why jumping is good:

Exhibit A:
https://imgur.com/f59i51z

Exhibit B:
https://imgur.com/bw0Dxjt

Dimmagolus and Onmagoug were definitely annoying if you didn't/couldn't equip a handgun at the least. Even if you could, you still usually had to go into first person mode just to shoot those wings and even then you had limited time because you had to move before those ground worms trapped you. If these bosses existed in PSO2, you'd never see them get a chance to fly into the air at all :wacko:

doomdragon83
Oct 17, 2017, 11:17 PM
Jumping helps Launcher normals and some PAs. If you were standing and shot at an enemy and they side step or otherwise move sideways, your shot will go harmlessly past them unless you happen to be at a distance where the explosion will occur near them anyway. For normal attacks, after every 3rd attack, you do this "reload" animation which slows your damage down, jumping doesn't have this disadvantage.

ZerotakerZX
Oct 18, 2017, 02:47 AM
Jumping usefulness is heavily depends on the weapon. TDs and JBs can benefit from jumping, while Knux are really earthbound, and staying in the air puts you into slight disadvantage.

Golgotha
Oct 18, 2017, 06:39 AM
Theres is one completely vertical raid boss and another one flying around, and at least three classes that benefit from staying in the air, so I'm not sure whats the issue. Its not a key element, and its not entirely absent.


Overall the problem is that the diffculty of PSO2 has diminished over the years. You should have played 4 years ago. Content was somewhat challenging. A new planet and a new boss were good. Soloing a SH boss was a thing to be proud of. Sega promised challenging content for pro-players. So look forward to that.

Its more about concurrent ability set rather than content difficulty. For instance, fornis weapon+rings+old class buffs completely trivialize the most challenging quests there are, compared to how you would have to do them before all this stuff. Hunar absolutely anywhere might as well just kill himself on spawning. At the start of ep3 medium sized enemies on XH survived in pse burst enough to attack. Think about it.
And to be honest, with hero and other classes being intensively sped up to hero level, I don't see what kind of ability new enemies should even have to be a match for all this mess. At this rate moves like jumping take too much time unless you're being conveniently moved through air during some super efficient damage dealing attack.

FantasyHeaven
Oct 18, 2017, 01:07 PM
Ever since TDs got buffed years ago they've been able to trivialize pretty much all bosses by spamming orchestra or whatever in a place hardly any attacks could reach. I don't play twin daggers anymore but that's how it used to be.
Of course hero can do the same thing now, ragne comes to mind. Just makes me feel bad for it. Delete it from the game already and 90% of the other ""bosses""" while you're at it.
They've buffed the players to high heaven while the bosses are the exact same they were when they got released so this happened. The only way they could've avoided this mess is making this game more like an RPG and less like an action game.

Moffen
Oct 19, 2017, 07:05 AM
Ever since TDs got buffed years ago they've been able to trivialize pretty much all bosses by spamming orchestra or whatever in a place hardly any attacks could reach. I don't play twin daggers anymore but that's how it used to be.
Of course hero can do the same thing now, ragne comes to mind. Just makes me feel bad for it. Delete it from the game already and 90% of the other ""bosses""" while you're at it.
They've buffed the players to high heaven while the bosses are the exact same they were when they got released so this happened. The only way they could've avoided this mess is making this game more like an RPG and less like an action game.

Ragnes a lost cause.
I was really hoping Esca ragnes core would be immune to damage unless you broke all its legs but it still just gets btfo like the usual ragne.

Kintama
Oct 19, 2017, 11:51 AM
What kills me is knowing these buffs will end next week and sega will see no problem reverting Elder and Loser back into their vh-tier stats..

Zyrusticae
Oct 19, 2017, 12:38 PM
This is a silly premise.

If anything, the devs didn't go far enough in giving players full freedom of movement. Look at Dragon's Dogma - we have ledge-grabbing, vaulting, monster climbing (this one's huge), double jumping (for agile classes), and of course we have the full-on sprint that PSO2 is still badly in need of and would handily solve the problem of players relying entirely on PAs to move around with. Moving around in the game feels far more natural than in a game as stiff as PSO2.

Not being able to jump or do much of anything besides walk is completely immersion-breaking. Even Dark Souls knows well enough to give the player the ability to jump horizontally, despite it being a complete non-factor in combat, because not being able to jump at all is fucking stupid. (It still needs to give players more traversal options besides running and jumping, but eh.) PSO2 is the opposite case where the jumping is largely used for combat and not really for platforming, which is an entirely valid use case as well for the above stated reasons of target selection and attacking specific components.

Above all, I just want to be able to move properly in the environment. Surely that's not too much to ask? The fact that even first-person shooters are giving players the ability to do things like vault and wall run should say enough. It just feels good to move around, mmkay?

Golgotha
Oct 20, 2017, 07:50 AM
Ragnes a lost cause.
I was really hoping Esca ragnes core would be immune to damage unless you broke all its legs but it still just gets btfo like the usual ragne.

Making every mob a toyhouse sounds really nice, but as toyhouse case itself shows, it terminally won't change player behavior driven by reward per second.
Having bosses to come in volumes to spread MPA thin would probably help more, and they kinda came closer to it with ToT, where enemies are behind walls, and also spawn in waves during the boss. But to reach on-release cradle panic levels they'd need to drop 4-5 ragnes on you at the same time, not counting the other stuff.

again, Im afraid they will just forget about ToT design, and the christmas map will be like last year.

Cyclon
Oct 20, 2017, 09:48 PM
They did include flying enemies here and there, and most bosses require jumping in order for you to reach their weak point. The random bipedal monster doesn't reward jumping much, but I think the variety approach works fine enough. There are areas where it's mandatory to attack in the air to get anywhere, too.
I get the complaint(I think?) but don't feel like it's warranted. Also you literally have all the options in the air, with some of them being shortened. If you wanted different ones, well, you're entitled to your opinion I guess; personally I enjoy the freedom of not being stuck with one or two moves in the air like in most action rpgs I've played, making jumping essentially just an animation in combat.

lostinseganet
Oct 22, 2017, 02:49 AM
Jumping has been the dream of players ever since the first days of PSO 1. Now that sega casted this onto gamers...Well they will never want to give it up. EVER! :p

chaoko99
Oct 22, 2017, 12:23 PM
This is a silly premise.

If anything, the devs didn't go far enough in giving players full freedom of movement. Look at Dragon's Dogma - we have ledge-grabbing, vaulting, monster climbing (this one's huge), double jumping (for agile classes), and of course we have the full-on sprint that PSO2 is still badly in need of and would handily solve the problem of players relying entirely on PAs to move around with. Moving around in the game feels far more natural than in a game as stiff as PSO2.

Not being able to jump or do much of anything besides walk is completely immersion-breaking. Even Dark Souls knows well enough to give the player the ability to jump horizontally, despite it being a complete non-factor in combat, because not being able to jump at all is fucking stupid. (It still needs to give players more traversal options besides running and jumping, but eh.) PSO2 is the opposite case where the jumping is largely used for combat and not really for platforming, which is an entirely valid use case as well for the above stated reasons of target selection and attacking specific components.

Above all, I just want to be able to move properly in the environment. Surely that's not too much to ask? The fact that even first-person shooters are giving players the ability to do things like vault and wall run should say enough. It just feels good to move around, mmkay?

Which was the impression I got from the original trailer (Granted, DD came out way later.) I was mildly disappointed.

Akakomuma
Oct 27, 2017, 03:55 AM
This is a silly premise.

If anything, the devs didn't go far enough in giving players full freedom of movement. Look at Dragon's Dogma - we have ledge-grabbing, vaulting, monster climbing (this one's huge), double jumping (for agile classes), and of course we have the full-on sprint that PSO2 is still badly in need of and would handily solve the problem of players relying entirely on PAs to move around with. Moving around in the game feels far more natural than in a game as stiff as PSO2.

Not being able to jump or do much of anything besides walk is completely immersion-breaking. Even Dark Souls knows well enough to give the player the ability to jump horizontally, despite it being a complete non-factor in combat, because not being able to jump at all is fucking stupid. (It still needs to give players more traversal options besides running and jumping, but eh.) PSO2 is the opposite case where the jumping is largely used for combat and not really for platforming, which is an entirely valid use case as well for the above stated reasons of target selection and attacking specific components.

Above all, I just want to be able to move properly in the environment. Surely that's not too much to ask? The fact that even first-person shooters are giving players the ability to do things like vault and wall run should say enough. It just feels good to move around, mmkay?
Not silly at all.

I much prefer a more polished and cohesive experience. If new features are added to the game and I'm not feeling the benefit and it actually detracts from said experience, it's not doing anything to "immerse" me. I also do not share your view that the lack of ability to jump is immersion breaking, it is a video game after all. Perhaps for you more is better, but I'll take less if it means I get a more rewarding experience. See Musou, Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity, etc.