Techer and Force techniques are getting buffed right? (also other questions)

[Salavtore]

I've been trying to keep up with the update info.
So apparently techniques will be getting buffed to keep up with PA's etc etc, thats happening this update right?

Also, on the subject of that, i still see people use force/tech etc etc, what skills tend to be the most viable to use among them?

[ArcaneTechs]

Theyre getting a skill that no matter what, the attack is considered a JA attack (aka HR's First Blood Skill) so it'll help in various situations along with a skill point Reduction to Tech Charge Advance+Element Weak Hit for FO & TE which will give both classes an extra 5 SP each to spec into something else. No damage boost though

[Altiea]

I've been trying to keep up with the update info.
So apparently techniques will be getting buffed to keep up with PA's etc etc, thats happening this update right?

Also, on the subject of that, i still see people use force/tech etc etc, what skills tend to be the most viable to use among them?

No...? Not sure where you got that info. Techs aren't getting buffed next update, FO and TE are just getting a utility Skill for Tech casting.

[Salavtore]

No...? Not sure where you got that info. Techs aren't getting buffed next update, FO and TE are just getting a utility Skill for Tech casting.

Just from a few butts ffrom ship 7.
At least this skill sounds neat.

While on topic of techniques, any of you like to give some input on the most viable techniques? Aside from of course the buffer techniques (Resta, shifta, deband etc)

[Aexorcet]

Techniques require crafting to get the most out of them. Many techs were buffed recently and almost everything is viable. Light is the most popular element because that element is often a weakness for major bosses. Ragrants is the main light DPS technique. Craft as concentrated for maximum DPS, or brilliant to make PP management easier while still being high in DPS. Gigrants is a light AoE tech, craft as type 0. This tech works differently from others, there is no charge time and it is casted immediately. Gigrants 0 will remain active as long as you press the cast button. After a about 2 seconds you'll hear a sound. Releasing the button after this sound will unleash a giant AoE finisher. Both of these techs are melee ranged. For long range you can switch to Ilgrants (either craft works, brilliant is stronger, but it takes away some of the range and has a kind of clunky charge time) and Grants (I'd suggest going brilliant since it doesn't cost much PP).

This only scratches the surface, but that should be enough to get you through most content. You should also look into compound techniques (which use 2 elements) and Zondeel, which draws enemies to its center, for mobbing. I don't have time to go into depth with everything right now, but I might add some more info later.

[the_importer_]

Just from a few butts ffrom ship 7.
At least this skill sounds neat.

While on topic of techniques, any of you like to give some input on the most viable techniques? Aside from of course the buffer techniques (Resta, shifta, deband etc)

As a long time Fo/Te, I'll give you my input on that one:

Foie: Useful if this is one of the few fire techs you have, becomes obsolete very fast
Gifoie: My goto fire technique when I feel like jumping in a crowd of enemies with fire weakness and just kill everything 360
Rafoie: Debatably the most useful fire technique, especially if your Tree has fast fire charge, it aimes from far away and it's powerful
Safoie: More powerful than GiFoie, but limited to what's in front of you
Nafoie: Never understood that one, it's not even on my pallets or sub-pallets
Ilfoie: If you have fast fire charge on your Tree, it's a boss killer, if not, then you need to timing

Barta: Although I don't use it a a lot, it's powerful, had long range, good aiming and pass through multiple enemies
Gibarta: About as pointless as it was in PSO1 when you have the next one, this is the equivalent of Safoie
Rabarta: The equivalent of Gifoie, but more powerful in ice format, kills mob in 360
Sabarta: The Nafoie of the ice techniques, poweful, but meh, not very pratical when you have...
Ilbarta: The boss killer for ice weakness, it will make your enemies even more vulnerable to ice, killer JA combos

Zonde: Same deal as with Foie, moving on
Gizonde: Only useful if the targets are close, but the damage is weak
Razonde: Normally the "Ra" tech is one of the best, but this is one of the exception, mainly do to it's limited "cone" range. Unless you are really high up or are into Talis, not recommended
Nazonde: The bolt tech you'll use the most, it's just that good
Ilzonde: The 2nd bolt tech you'll use the most (hint, if you use a gamepad or if you're REALLY good with a mouse, it's easy to navigate around enemies without being hit)

Zan: First wind tech, moving on
Gizan: Probably the best "Gi" tech after Gifoie, nice power
Razan: Not a bad "Ra", but...
Sazan: Practically the same thing, but more powerful than Razan
Nazan: The boss killer of wind techs, limited range however
Ilzan: The weaker Nazan, but will push enemies away, my favorite wind tech

Grants: Like Barta, I don't use it a lot, but it's powerful and also has good aiming
Gigrants: Like Gifoie, I use it to jump in the middle of darker mobs and kill in 360
Ragrants: Best tech in the game, period
Nagrants: Light shield that hurts, has it's use
Ilgrants: Technically more powerful than Ragrants, but hits less, so it's your call if you want to use that instead

Megid: Best simple tech out of all the elements, also has great aim
Gimegid: This is like Sabarta, not a big fan of it
Ramegid: If you're surrounded, that's a good one to use
Samegid: I never understood this one, I mean I know what it does, but why would someone use it over Megid?
Namegid: If you can aim it properly, it's powerful, but drains a lot of PP, so if you miss, ouch
Ilmegid: The mod killer of the dark technique

Compound Techniques: They got nerfed, but they're still the most powerful thing in the game

[Altiea]

Concentrated Ragrants is still popular, although Brilliant Ragrants and Brilliant Ilgrants are picking up steam since the buffs. Fire has pretty much everything for all-around DPS, Ice has Ilbarta for bossing, Lightning has Zonde Type-0 (bossing), Zondeel (get a bunch of enemies together so you can Ragrants them), and Ilzonde (Ilzonde dash), Wind has... not a whole lot, really, except Sazan for Mirage, Light has the above plus Gigrants Type-0 (for mobbing when you can't Zondeel), and Dark has Namegid, Ilmegid and Ramegid Type-0.

[milranduil]

this is ep5, please stop spamming ragrants 100% of the time on light weak stuff. gigrants is generally better for aoe, ilgrants is more reliable for dps. ragrants should really only be used for either if PPC is off cd or for short bursts of damage. here is a showcase of ep5 fo in mother solo
[spoiler-box]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MUJupEg6aI
[/spoiler-box]

[Altiea]

For anyone who isn't keeping up with swiki, Brilliant Ilgrants was buffed so now it has just 10 less DPS than Concentrated Ragrants, but has vastly superior DPP, so it's arguably the more efficient option nowadays for bossing.

[Aexorcet]

this is ep5, please stop spamming ragrants 100% of the time on light weak stuff. gigrants is generally better for aoe, ilgrants is more reliable for dps. ragrants should really only be used for either if PPC is off cd or for short bursts of damage. here is a showcase of ep5 fo in mother solo


There is still nothing wrong with general Ragrants use though, especially with the PP regen buff on rods. When it comes to mobbing, Ragrants is stronger than Gigrants and more PP efficient than Ilgrants due to multi hit. It's also more PP efficient than Ilgrants if you have the Killing Bonus ring. Large groups, as in Harko TA trivialize Ragrant's PP usage with that ring.

I agree that Light is much more than 100% Ragrants now, but it is still very much a useable tech in every situation. Mother also isn't the best boss to compare effective DPS between Ragrants and Ilgrants. Ilgrants is better against the arms since they move around a lot. I would like to see a comparison between the two against a Blaize (or whatever its called) to see how much the need to stop and regen PP with Ragrants closes the gap between the two. It's annoying that PSO2 doesn't have anything to allow for easy DPS testing.


For anyone who isn't keeping up with swiki, Brilliant Ilgrants was buffed so now it has just 10 less DPS than Concentrated Ragrants, but has vastly superior DPP, so it's arguably the more efficient option nowadays for bossing.

Concentrated Ragrants is ahead by about 13%. Brilliant Ragrants is just barely ahead in DPS.

[milranduil]

a lot of bad/non-specific info here, so i'll attempt to correct/clarify



Foie: Useful if this is one of the few fire techs you have, becomes obsolete very fast / huge ep5 damage buff, skim lines of mobs for free 40-60k+ depending on subclass/hitbox
Gifoie: My goto fire technique when I feel like jumping in a crowd of enemies with fire weakness and just kill everything 360 / accurate
Rafoie: Debatably the most useful fire technique, especially if your Tree has fast fire charge, it aimes from far away and it's powerful / lazy ranged, lockon damage, dps is only good if you can lockon to a weak point that you otherwise cannot reliably hit with something else
Safoie: More powerful than GiFoie, but limited to what's in front of you / accurate; type-0 craft is very cheap cost frontal aoe
Nafoie: Never understood that one, it's not even on my pallets or sub-pallets / large ep5 buff; high pp cost, deals 50-60% more dps than all other fire techs depending on craft. power vs conc. craft: power is 10% less dps for 10% more dpp than conc.
Ilfoie: If you have fast fire charge on your Tree, it's a boss killer, if not, then you need to timing / no..., ilfoie is nothing more than a pre-emptive mobbing tech. foie/safoie0 are much more reliable dps




Barta: Although I don't use it a a lot, it's powerful, had long range, good aiming and pass through multiple enemies/ accurate, huge ep5 buff
Gibarta: About as pointless as it was in PSO1 when you have the next one, this is the equivalent of Safoie / huge ep5 buff, easily does 30-40k per hit x 3 per cast, large frontal aoe. this and barta are your mobbing techs for ice
Rabarta: The equivalent of Gifoie, but more powerful in ice format, kills mob in 360 / only good if stuff is tightly zondeel'd, gibarta is much more reliable for clearing stuff in say Nab UQ
Sabarta: The Nafoie of the ice techniques, poweful, but meh, not very pratical when you have... / ep5 charge reduction did not help this tech, barta/ilbarta are much better dps
Ilbarta: The boss killer for ice weakness, it will make your enemies even more vulnerable to ice what does this even mean, killer JA combos / deals 100% on 1~3 casts, 200% on 4~6 casts, 800% on 7th cast. use power craft.



Zonde: Same deal as with Foie, moving on [/b]/ zonde0 is the goto dps lightning tech dealing 50%+ more dps than nazonde and 40% more than power sazonde. exceptional when combo'd with nabarta0 for blocking before a cast and rod keep[/b]
Gizonde: Only useful if the targets are close, but the damage is weak / hug ep5 buff, easily 50k+ per cast. caveat for using gizonde correctly, you must cast this on a mob that is not moving for it to effectively chain to other mobs. if the initial hit misses, so do all of the chained hits.
Razonde: Normally the "Ra" tech is one of the best, but this is one of the exception, mainly do to it's limited "cone" range. Unless you are really high up or are into Talis, not recommended / high damage when used correctly with talis. less useful now with gizonde buff
Nazonde: The bolt tech you'll use the most, it's just that good / only good for brief weak point exposures that zonde0 cannot hit, for example amduscia box when knocked down
Ilzonde: The 2nd bolt tech you'll use the most (hint, if you use a gamepad or if you're REALLY good with a mouse, it's easy to navigate around enemies without being hit)/ movement/finisher only. NOT dps
Sazonde: lightning single target dps while remaining mobile. ignite with any other lightning tech, like uncharged gizonde or ilzonde



Zan: First wind tech, moving on / trash tech
Gizan: Probably the best "Gi" tech after Gifoie, nice power / underwhelming, nazan0 is better for a zondeel'd group, aoe is not that big
Razan: Not a bad "Ra", but... super informative; the rafoie of wind techs, only good with a weakpoint lockon, or lazy ranged dps
Sazan: Practically the same thing, but more powerful than Razan / slightly more dps than razan, but terrible at hitting weakpoints. mostly just used to mirage stuff
Nazan: The boss killer of wind techs, limited range however / type0 is king of wind techs for dps. similar to hatou usage in that you must use at a certain range for the projectile to execute the majority of its hits. can also be tps'd at the ground to get all hits
Ilzan: The weaker Nazan, but will push enemies away, my favorite wind tech / sucks in and knocks down, does not blow away. huge ep5 buff, linear aoe like foie, but pierces enemies rather than stopping



Grants: Like Barta, I don't use it a lot, but it's powerful and also has good aiming/ is nothing like barta??? lockon, single target dps for something moving all over the place.
Gigrants: Like Gifoie, I use it to jump in the middle of darker mobs and kill in 360 / type0 got an enormous pp reduction cost for holding until release. bread and butter mobbing aoe tech
Ragrants: Best tech in the game, period / can be used if 1-2 casts will kill zondeel'd group of mobs, otherwise spam only when ppc is not on cd
Nagrants: Light shield that hurts, has it's use / interval craft for pre-emptive damage/panic, otherwise useless
Ilgrants: Technically more powerful than Ragrants, but hits less, so it's your call if you want to use that instead / huge ep5 buff, single target dps+dpp king with power craft. ragrants is only better with PPC active



Megid: Best simple tech out of all the elements, also has great aim / huge ep5 buff, dark's only reliable mobbing tech. reasonably sized aoe explosion on impact, needs zondeel to really be useful
Gimegid: This is like Sabarta, not a big fan of it / power craft ep5 buffed, both conc/power have the same dps, power has more dpp, conc executes faster. for long down periods, like deus, power is more reliable due to better dpp
Ramegid: If you're surrounded, that's a good one to use type0 is the only reliable variation, small aoe DoT around your character, lasts about 20 seconds. if less than 20 of the 60 hits will land, don't bother casting this for dps
Samegid: I never understood this one, I mean I know what it does, but why would someone use it over Megid? / single target dps for something that is not stationary (think deus's dragon heads)
Namegid: If you can aim it properly, it's powerful, but drains a lot of PP, so if you miss, ouch [b]/ little reason to use this for charged dps unless something is moving continuously, e.g deus slide
Ilmegid: The mod killer of the dark technique / clears low HP trash, bad at anything where you need to hit a specific hitbox for damage like shironia/kuronia mobs



Compound Techniques: They got nerfed, but they're still the most powerful thing in the game / strong, yes. most powerful thing in the game, no...

[Altiea]

a lot of bad/non-specific info here, so i'll attempt to correct/clarify

To be fair, most of the info given was outdated...

[milranduil]

There is still nothing wrong with general Ragrants use though, especially with the PP regen buff on rods. When it comes to mobbing, Ragrants is stronger than Gigrants and more PP efficient than Ilgrants due to multi hit. It's also more PP efficient than Ilgrants if you have the Killing Bonus ring. Large groups, as in Harko TA trivialize Ragrant's PP usage with that ring.

I agree that Light is much more than 100% Ragrants now, but it is still very much a useable tech in every situation. Mother also isn't the best boss to compare effective DPS between Ragrants and Ilgrants. Ilgrants is better against the arms since they move around a lot. I would like to see a comparison between the two against a Blaize (or whatever its called) to see how much the need to stop and regen PP with Ragrants closes the gap between the two. It's annoying that PSO2 doesn't have anything to allow for easy DPS testing.



Concentrated Ragrants is ahead by about 13%. Brilliant Ragrants is just barely ahead in DPS.

purely from a dps perspective yes, ragrants beats gigrants0, but that is hardly the point for a mobbing tech. AoE is what matters, and gigrants0 smashes ragrants in that department.

"more PP efficient than Ilgrants due to multi hit" ...what? a tech's dps and dpp is based on the total dmg of the cast, not the dmg per hit.

killing bonus ring range is very, very short like one mirage at best. considering for mobbing you typically use a talis anyway it makes no sense to make this argument whatsoever with ragrants or gigrants0.

Actually it's the perfect example. If you watched the video, which I hope you did before commenting, you'd notice they use a lot of ilgrants on the down phases, a stationary target for long periods of time.

To be fair, most of the info given was outdated...
pre ep5 foie/zonde were not trash though. i honestly don't know what he's talking about.

[Crayzus]

There is no point playing force unless you have eternal phycho drive. Until they add a skill that works like elemental conversion force is dead.

[milranduil]

There is no point playing force unless you have eternal phycho drive. Until they add a skill that works like elemental conversion force is dead.

[spoiler-box]
https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/36351039/get-out-get-out-now.jpg
[/spoiler-box]

[ArcaneTechs]

There is no point playing force unless you have eternal phycho drive. Until they add a skill that works like elemental conversion force is dead.
consider uninstalling pso2 mai friendo or go back to your Hu/Su hole from which you came

[Aexorcet]

purely from a dps perspective yes, ragrants beats gigrants0, but that is hardly the point for a mobbing tech. AoE is what matters, and gigrants0 smashes ragrants in that department.
Gigrants is no doubt larger and certainly superior in cases where you can't Zondeel. However Ragrants has a large hitbox itself, and Zondeel can make almost anything into an AoE tech. I won't argue against using Gigrants for mobbing, and it's currently my go to AoE, but Zondeel + Ragrants still works. Ragrants by itself works if mobs spawn in tight packs.


"more PP efficient than Ilgrants due to multi hit" ...what? a tech's dps and dpp is based on the total dmg of the cast, not the dmg per hit.
multihit as it hitting more than one enemy. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


killing bonus ring range is very, very short like one mirage at best. considering for mobbing you typically use a talis anyway it makes no sense to make this argument whatsoever with ragrants or gigrants0.
Killing Bonus range is enough for me to make use of it. It even works with unzondeeled mobs and Gigrants 0, though obviously it won't catch everything. Depending on what you're doing that free PP is going to be worth more than talis tech bonus or the utility of throwing a talis. If you're spawn camping or fighting near a tower in BQ or TD, it's pretty easy to make use of. I also find it to be of great value in TACO and Extreme Quests where mobs die quickly, even to things like Ilzonde.


Actually it's the perfect example. If you watched the video, which I hope you did before commenting, you'd notice they use a lot of ilgrants on the down phases, a stationary target for long periods of time.
I did watch it, but not the entire thing. What I saw was Ilgrants on the arms and Barantsion/PPC Ragrants on the core. If there was Ilgrants on the core, then I must have skipped it. Still the video only shows so much without a comparison. It's not hard to keep up Ragrants off PPC against the arms if they don't behave erratically, especially if you're under super treatment all the time. If the arms are flying around, then Ilgrants is better without a doubt.

I'd really like to see solid numbers to settle the comparison, but I don't have them sadly. I'm hesitant to decide on less concrete evidence. Ilgrants is a top tier tech in any case though, that's not up for dispute.

[milranduil]

Gigrants is no doubt larger and certainly superior in cases where you can't Zondeel. However Ragrants has a large hitbox itself, and Zondeel can make almost anything into an AoE tech. I won't argue against using Gigrants for mobbing, and it's currently my go to AoE, but Zondeel + Ragrants still works. Ragrants by itself works if mobs spawn in tight packs.


multihit as it hitting more than one enemy. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Killing Bonus range is enough for me to make use of it. It even works with unzondeeled mobs and Gigrants 0, though obviously it won't catch everything. Depending on what you're doing that free PP is going to be worth more than talis tech bonus or the utility of throwing a talis. If you're spawn camping or fighting near a tower in BQ or TD, it's pretty easy to make use of. I also find it to be of great value in TACO and Extreme Quests where mobs die quickly, even to things like Ilzonde.


I did watch it, but not the entire thing. What I saw was Ilgrants on the arms and Barantsion/PPC Ragrants on the core. If there was Ilgrants on the core, then I must have skipped it. Still the video only shows so much without a comparison. It's not hard to keep up Ragrants off PPC against the arms if they don't behave erratically, especially if you're under super treatment all the time. If the arms are flying around, then Ilgrants is better without a doubt.

I'd really like to see solid numbers to settle the comparison, but I don't have them sadly. I'm hesitant to decide on less concrete evidence. Ilgrants is a top tier tech in any case though, that's not up for dispute.

zondeel ragrants is fine if it dies in 1-2 ragrants, otherwise you're better off with gigrants0.

harko/maybe XQ is the only place i'd use killing bonus in combination with gigrants0 because it's better off using a rod to move your cast as stuff dies instantly. for almost any EQ, i'd be using talis over rod for gigrants, and just be using PK then.

the exact numbers with ideal crafts and perfect charge/release times are:
Conc ragrants does 17.9% more dps than brilliant ilgrants
Brilliant ilgrants has 118% more dpp than conc ragrants.

[Altiea]

There is no point playing force unless you have eternal phycho drive. Until they add a skill that works like elemental conversion force is dead.

This makes like, no sense. The only thing EPD does is to make playing FO/TE more cost efficient in terms of money invested.

[Aexorcet]

the exact numbers with ideal crafts and perfect charge/release times are:
Conc ragrants does 17.9% more dps than brilliant ilgrants
Brilliant ilgrants has 118% more dpp than conc ragrants.

Those I can calculate, what I can't is the effective DPS in combat (essentially what a parser would tell you). If you're bursting (or PPC), that's the just the raw DPS. If that's not the case and you're using your entire PP bar, then it depends on how fast you can regain PP. That's why I want to test them on a Blaize or something similar. Time how long it takes to deplete it's health bar including the time it takes to stop to regen PP, if any. DPP doesn't directly translate into DPS, so while Ilgrants is more efficient by a considerable amount, that doesn't mean you'll actually be doing more DPS with it over time.

I can make a sloppy estimate using the stats for each tech:

Ragrants takes about 9 seconds to empty my 206 PP and then gain it back with rod melee.

Ilgrants takes 24 seconds to do the same.

Over the 9 seconds of Ragrants I'd do about 9000% damage, while Ilgrants would do 23000% damage. That's ~1000 DPS for Ragrants but only 900 for Ilgrants. So if my math is right, Ragrants is better than Ilgrants despite the DPP difference. I just want this verified in game.

[maoulizbeth]

There is no point playing force unless you have eternal phycho drive. Until they add a skill that works like elemental conversion force is dead.

but...what? that's...not true. EPD just saves you money and effort. its not as substantial as you've convinced yourself. sure, its nice. but you cope perfectly well without it. why are people like this. why would you ever post this with even a modicum of seriousness. please stop. think before posting

[the_importer_]

To be fair, most of the info given was outdated...

Perhaps, I've been away for 18 months, but my strategy still works, so it can't be that bad :p

[Salavtore]

Whoa, looks like i wasn't in the right mindset then.
See, i got some really bad info from people.
I was told to level up dark mastery to the max, i was just trying to follow what i thought was meta, but i guess Light is the way to go in the end.

May i see some FO/Techer builds of yours? You all are a big help to me, this game is a bit tricky trying to pin-point the top damage with some of the fun classes here.
Thank goodness i got techer to 75, force is next.

[milranduil]

Those I can calculate, what I can't is the effective DPS in combat (essentially what a parser would tell you). If you're bursting (or PPC), that's the just the raw DPS. If that's not the case and you're using your entire PP bar, then it depends on how fast you can regain PP. That's why I want to test them on a Blaize or something similar. Time how long it takes to deplete it's health bar including the time it takes to stop to regen PP, if any. DPP doesn't directly translate into DPS, so while Ilgrants is more efficient by a considerable amount, that doesn't mean you'll actually be doing more DPS with it over time.

I can make a sloppy estimate using the stats for each tech:

Ragrants takes about 9 seconds to empty my 206 PP and then gain it back with rod melee.

Ilgrants takes 24 seconds to do the same.

Over the 9 seconds of Ragrants I'd do about 9000% damage, while Ilgrants would do 23000% damage. That's ~1000 DPS for Ragrants but only 900 for Ilgrants. So if my math is right, Ragrants is better than Ilgrants despite the DPP difference. I just want this verified in game.
all that proves is you do more dmg with ragrants when emptying your pp bar. if you haven't regen'd pp yet, then DPP doesn't matter, only DPS. you'd need to consider how much time it takes to refill your pp bar, then do it again and add up the entire time vs dmg.

Perhaps, I've been away for 18 months, but my strategy still works, so it can't be that bad :p

i'd recommend reading what i posted because fo does not play the same at all as it did 18 months ago or even 5 months ago.

Whoa, looks like i wasn't in the right mindset then.
See, i got some really bad info from people.
I was told to level up dark mastery to the max, i was just trying to follow what i thought was meta, but i guess Light is the way to go in the end.

May i see some FO/Techer builds of yours? You all are a big help to me, this game is a bit tricky trying to pin-point the top damage with some of the fun classes here.
Thank goodness i got techer to 75, force is next.

i recommend this tree for after we get the next update that reduces tech ch2/EWH to 5pts. you cover almost all of your bases except max lightning.
http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12fbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIob CIobCIo0jdodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb0000000f doIb0000008dBbsiN2SGBI2gAgAIkqncKdFId000006dBInfcF fqnGAdBIkcFHNHNeA000009bIoIn0000000fdoIbIn0000000f dB0000000dBIb0000008

[Aexorcet]

Whoa, looks like i wasn't in the right mindset then.
See, i got some really bad info from people.
I was told to level up dark mastery to the max, i was just trying to follow what i thought was meta, but i guess Light is the way to go in the end.

May i see some FO/Techer builds of yours? You all are a big help to me, this game is a bit tricky trying to pin-point the top damage with some of the fun classes here.
Thank goodness i got techer to 75, force is next.

Dark is good, I mentioned light just because it's universal. You have enough skill points to get both light and dark. You can even fit all three Techer elements if you wanted.

Here are some core skill trees:

http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12rAbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIo bCIobCIo0jdodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb0000000 fdoIb0000008dBbsiN2SGBekId9nId000006dBInidjGAqBIkI kGAbn000000IbIoIo0000000fdoIbIo0000000fdB0000000dB Ib0000008

Pick a main element for Fo, then get a second element or max Photon Flare. For Te, take a second element along with light. Avoid anything related to the "Ignition" skills on both trees.


all that proves is you do more dmg with ragrants when emptying your pp bar. if you haven't regen'd pp yet, then DPP doesn't matter, only DPS. you'd need to consider how much time it takes to refill your pp bar, then do it again and add up the entire time vs dmg.


Yes, that is what was done. The time I used it what it takes to drain the entire bar and then refill. The refill is a rough estimate, I used 2.5 seconds. If you want a second bar drain after the PP regen, that doesn't change much:

Ragrants ~1180 (120%)
Ilgrants~985 (100%)

This biases things in favor of Ragrants because the regen time makes up less of the total time.

[the_importer_]

Whoa, looks like i wasn't in the right mindset then.
See, i got some really bad info from people.
I was told to level up dark mastery to the max, i was just trying to follow what i thought was meta, but i guess Light is the way to go in the end.

May i see some FO/Techer builds of yours? You all are a big help to me, this game is a bit tricky trying to pin-point the top damage with some of the fun classes here.
Thank goodness i got techer to 75, force is next.

If you're willing to buy AC, then you ultimate build would be 1 tree per element for both Fo and Te. Not only are you saving points for other skills and maxing ATK on each tree, but since there's only 2 elements needed per field, you'll be ready for anything as long as you load to proper preset before going on a mission.

[milranduil]

If you're willing to buy AC, then you ultimate build would be 1 tree per element for both Fo and Te. Not only are you saving points for other skills and maxing ATK on each tree, but since there's only 2 elements needed per field, you'll be ready for anything as long as you load to proper preset before going on a mission.

please stop giving outdated advice... it makes it more confusing for newer players to know what to do.

[Altiea]

If you're willing to buy AC, then you ultimate build would be 1 tree per element for both Fo and Te. Not only are you saving points for other skills and maxing ATK on each tree, but since there's only 2 elements needed per field, you'll be ready for anything as long as you load to proper preset before going on a mission.

Er... Why are we maxing Stat Ups again?

[ArcaneTechs]

If you're willing to buy AC, then you ultimate build would be 1 tree per element for both Fo and Te. Not only are you saving points for other skills and maxing ATK on each tree, but since there's only 2 elements needed per field, you'll be ready for anything as long as you load to proper preset before going on a mission.

you really only need 2 trees for Fo and Te max if you want but how the trees have been done lately, 1ea is perfectly fine.. u gotta catch up faster bro

[the_importer_]

In what universe exactly is maxing stats on all elements not useful? Someone please explain to how putting a couple of points in Bolt is more effective against mechs than fully maxing both masteries. I'm honestly giving you guys a chance to explain this situation before pulling out the "cheap-ass" card and saying that this is simply an excuse not to buy AC.

[Salavtore]

Shifta is a big help on DPS too right? worth upgrading it completely or just the first boost?

[ArcaneTechs]

In what universe exactly is maxing stats on all elements not useful? Someone please explain to how putting a couple of points in Bolt is more effective against mechs than fully maxing both masteries. I'm honestly giving you guys a chance to explain this situation before pulling out the "cheap-ass" card and saying that this is simply an excuse not to buy AC.
#freemiumproblems

u can get all 3 elements per tree but i dont exactly recommend it (only recommended if you dont aim to invest money for the game or just leveling it)

[ArcaneTechs]

That's not an explanation, that's an opinion. Can you elaborate on why a person should not get 1 tree per element?

no because im being real lazy about this right now and if you crunch your builds with the current sim youll see why you dont. its a pity because i have a spare fo/te tree now

Shifta is a big help on DPS too right? worth upgrading it completely or just the first boost?
max shifta and thats it, u dont need crit and shifta strike is Te only

[the_importer_]

#freemiumproblems

u can get all 3 elements per tree but i dont exactly recommend it (only recommended if you dont aim to invest money for the game or just leveling it)

Well at lease you're honest. I personally don't believe in coincidences. SEGA changed the SP requirements by the time I came back and now, using element per tree allows you to max any stats that makes a difference in a build (minus Photon Flare on Fo, but that would take 21 SP, so let's talk when the Lv cap is 100). Pretty sure they planned this so that people would make more lovely trees like these: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12uDbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIo bCIobCIojdS8dodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb00000 00fdoIb0000008dBbnfJI2SGBIk8cKIsI2000006dBInfcKbnq sHNqBIkIkGAbndn000009bIoIo0000000fdoIbIo0000000fdB 0000000dBIb0000008

EDIT: Guess you had time to reply to my original reply before I had time to delete because I didn't see your modification until after I posted my original reply.

[Zorak000]

EPD makes elemental convert count as 1.3x on-element 1.3x off-element on all compound techs, instead of the 1.3x on-element 1.15x off-element it normally does, since one of the elements of the tech is off-element to your rod; is I think what that person might have been getting at?

anyway, compounds seem to have base damage modifiers similar to what hero finishers have, so I guess I can understand why they slapped the 2 minute cooldown onto them (on top of trying to address the "non-compounds are only good for charging your compound meter" mentality that force turned into by that point) but fo/te kind of has to struggle with elemental weaknesses/masteries/convert across all content in order to keep their damage modifiers as high as Hero's, and they can't directly buff damage mods on the normal techs since that could lead to talis heros being better forces than force

[ArcaneTechs]

Well at lease you're honest. I personally don't believe in coincidences. SEGA changed the SP requirements by the time I came back and now, using element per tree allows you to max any stats that makes a difference in a build (minus Photon Flare on Fo, but that would take 21 SP, so let's talk when the Lv cap is 100). Pretty sure they planned this so that people would make more lovely trees like these: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12uDbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIo bCIobCIojdS8dodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb00000 00fdoIb0000008dBbnfJI2SGBIk8cKIsI2000006dBInfcKbnq sHNqBIkIkGAbndn000009bIoIo0000000fdoIbIo0000000fdB 0000000dBIb0000008

EDIT: Guess you had time to reply to my original reply before I had time to delete because I didn't see your modification until after I posted my original reply.

just fast :3

[the_importer_]

just fast :3

That's what she said :p

[milranduil]

In what universe exactly is maxing stats on all elements not useful? Someone please explain to how putting a couple of points in Bolt is more effective against mechs than fully maxing both masteries. I'm honestly giving you guys a chance to explain this situation before pulling out the "cheap-ass" card and saying that this is simply an excuse not to buy AC.

i have 6 fo and te trees each, AC is not an excuse. i supplied a tree that is good for relevant content at the moment that mostly skips on lightning because there doesn't seem to be any content for a while that will require it. the few points are there for the occasional zandion against wind weak bosses such truck/illusia/gryphon. playing one element only on both fo and te is severely limiting for a variety of reasons a few being deus, anga, and compound damage. there is honestly no reason to not run a 3-element te sub to be honest. you're only missing 5/10 tatkup1, tatkup2 is maxed and so is shifta adv.

[ArcaneTechs]

i have 6 fo and te trees each, AC is not an excuse. i supplied a tree that is good for relevant content at the moment that mostly skips on lightning because there doesn't seem to be any content for a while that will require it. the few points are there for the occasional zandion against wind weak bosses such truck/illusia/gryphon. playing one element only on both fo and te is severely limiting for a variety of reasons a few being deus, anga, and compound damage. there is honestly no reason to not run a 3-element te sub to be honest. you're only missing 5/10 tatkup1, tatkup2 is maxed and so is shifta adv.
almost wish Lighting techs were more relevant outside the few moments it has, like Ama UQ and mobs/bosses you stated.

[Dark Mits]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't all theorycrafting suggest that we fight an entirely immobile enemy where the player also doesn't even need to move but only press 1 single button (the attack tech)? Aren't all those numbers invalid when we fight an enemy that moves around, or enemies that die before our techs finish their animation (like lots of low-hp enemies where Heroes kill them before Ragrants even gets to its 2nd tick), or when we need to mirage escape? Wouldn't "real" situations make spells like Ragrants only useful on special cases (like when Deus is on the floor)?

[Aexorcet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't all theorycrafting suggest that we fight an entirely immobile enemy where the player also doesn't even need to move but only press 1 single button (the attack tech)? Aren't all those numbers invalid when we fight an enemy that moves around, or enemies that die before our techs finish their animation (like lots of low-hp enemies where Heroes kill them before Ragrants even gets to its 2nd tick), or when we need to mirage escape? Wouldn't "real" situations make spells like Ragrants only useful on special cases (like when Deus is on the floor)?

It's a lot easier to figure out things out in the simple case, yeah. If you wanted the most accurate comparison possible that accounts for everything then you would need to parse a bunch of quest runs where you use each tech. Although I would say that you'll probably be in a position to simply spam damage in quite a few quests. Deus and Mother core down, boss spawns/stuns/animations in Dengeki EQ.

I don't have much issue using Ragrants in real situations. It also has some advantages over Ilgrants in these cases. Advantages like complete protection under a max level tech parry ring and faster charge time, meaning that you're more likely to finish casting before being interrupted. For me Ilgrants is mainly there for hitting things that Ragrants can't reliably, but this isn't super common.

[ZerotakerZX]

So, this new JA skill. Basically it makes you don't care for timing at all, since you don't have to hit JA rings?

[Zorak000]

the skill seems to have a cooldown attached to it; I assume that cooldown is there so you still have to JA after the first tech cast, that way force doesn't devolve into some sort of jump cancel/lobby action cancel meta after every tech cast

the skill is mostly there so that you dont have to toss out a basic attack or tap nabarta 0 before your first tech just to get it to count as a JA

[the_importer_]

i have 6 fo and te trees each, AC is not an excuse. i supplied a tree that is good for relevant content at the moment that mostly skips on lightning because there doesn't seem to be any content for a while that will require it. the few points are there for the occasional zandion against wind weak bosses such truck/illusia/gryphon. playing one element only on both fo and te is severely limiting for a variety of reasons a few being deus, anga, and compound damage. there is honestly no reason to not run a 3-element te sub to be honest. you're only missing 5/10 tatkup1, tatkup2 is maxed and so is shifta adv.

Well right off the bat, you're assuming that the OP will only run the current EQ where bolt is lease useful (minus Polytan Land, but we'll put that aside since it's a limited EQ). What about Dailies, TACOs, ADQ and other quests on Lilipa? Hard to believe that you would leave ou an entire planet just ti bring up Anga later on in your same paragraph. Anga's strategy is a joke, just use 2 techs beside Light and once he's resisting to those, switch to Light. I mean it's not like you're unable to use a Tech if you don't any mastery points on your trees for that said technique. I get fucked sometimes because he also starts resisting rods, but that's more a problem of mine since I hate Talis. As for missing out T-ATK1 on both trees and T-ATK2 on Fo tree, that's almost 6% of damage left out.

Don't get the wrong idea, I am aware that playing with different trees is niche and I don't expect everyone to either get use to it or spend AC on it, but you can't say that it's not more effective damage wise. Also, let's be honest, your trees would look a bit weaker element wise if you didn't plan the Tech Charge Advance 2 and Elemental Weakness points we'll be getting back in December.

[Altiea]

Well right off the bat, you're assuming that the OP will only run the current EQ where bolt is lease useful (minus Polytan Land, but we'll put that aside since it's a limited EQ). What about Dailies, TACOs, ADQ and other quests on Lilipa? Hard to believe that you would leave ou an entire planet just ti bring up Anga later on in your same paragraph. Anga's strategy is a joke, just use 2 techs beside Light and once he's resisting to those, switch to Light. I mean it's not like you're unable to use a Tech if you don't any mastery points on your trees for that said technique. I get fucked sometimes because he also starts resisting rods, but that's more a problem of mine since I hate Talis. As for missing out T-ATK1 on both trees and T-ATK2 on Fo tree, that's almost 6% of damage left out.

Don't get the wrong idea, I am aware that playing with different trees is niche and I don't expect everyone to either get use to it or spend AC on it, but you can't say that it's not more effective damage wise. Also, let's be honest, your trees would look a bit weaker element wise if you didn't plan the Tech Charge Advance 2 and Elemental Weakness points we'll be getting back in December.

I mean... There's nothing important to fight in Lillipa. Anything you can do there except AQ has trash mobs that melt in two seconds to literally any Tech, even unboosted Lightning, and no one runs AQ anyways except for Exit Bursting Urban, which isn't Lillipa. Lightning as a whole isn't a very useful element offensively, mainly cause the only content that has even remotely relevant enemies that are Lightning weak is UQ Amduscia, and no one runs that outside of special boost weeks.

Also, 17 Points to get 6% damage isn't exactly efficient... I personally think you'd be better off maxing Photon Flare and using that to burst, if you're only going to invest in one Element per Tree.

[milranduil]

Well right off the bat, you're assuming that the OP will only run the current EQ where bolt is lease useful (minus Polytan Land, but we'll put that aside since it's a limited EQ). What about Dailies, TACOs, ADQ and other quests on Lilipa? Hard to believe that you would leave ou an entire planet just ti bring up Anga later on in your same paragraph. Anga's strategy is a joke, just use 2 techs beside Light and once he's resisting to those, switch to Light. I mean it's not like you're unable to use a Tech if you don't any mastery points on your trees for that said technique. I get fucked sometimes because he also starts resisting rods, but that's more a problem of mine since I hate Talis. As for missing out T-ATK1 on both trees and T-ATK2 on Fo tree, that's almost 6% of damage left out.

Don't get the wrong idea, I am aware that playing with different trees is niche and I don't expect everyone to either get use to it or spend AC on it, but you can't say that it's not more effective damage wise. Also, let's be honest, your trees would look a bit weaker element wise if you didn't plan the Tech Charge Advance 2 and Elemental Weakness points we'll be getting back in December.

let's deal with these one at a time...

Dailies, TACOs, ADQ and other quests on Lilipa? the only one of any of these that merits needing a lightning tree would be time attacking Lilipa SH TA and i'm not saying the CO, i'm saying the weekly ranking. none of the others require any sort of lightning skill points whatsoever to one shot literally anything...

Anga's strategy is a joke, just use 2 techs beside Light and once he's resisting to those, switch to Light. with all due respect, i've probably spent more time fighting anga with force than you've spent time playing this game. i also have no idea how that's related to lightning skill tree points when ilbarta or samegid/gimegid are much better than any other off element techs for anga.

I get fucked sometimes because he also starts resisting rods, but that's more a problem of mine since I hate Talis what the hell are you doing that anga resists rod? the only way that's possible is from rod smacks and rod shoot. as for not using talis, that is a huge personal problem.

As for missing out T-ATK1 on both trees and T-ATK2 on Fo tree, that's almost 6% of damage left out. well for one, you need to treat fo and te trees separately, they have different functions. 5/10 tatkup1 vs 10/10tatkup1 while sacrificing 1 element on te sub tree makes absolutely no sense in ep5. having the versatility of 3 element te sub enormously outweighs a less than 1% damage increase. as for fo tree, it goes 1 of 3 ways:

1) single element fo tree with tatkup1/2 both maxed for base + 115tatk compared to 2element + 4/15 lightning SP. 115 base tatk equates to roughly 4% damage. the only time this will make a relevant difference is again if you to weekly TA rankings like tokyo XH or nab1/2. if you aren't doing those, the only difference you will see is a small change in #'s but never hits. you'd be saving on average 1 hit every 24 hits of damage that you do which would very, very rarely save you a cast to begin with.

2) fire+ice fo tree with no lightning SP, tatkup2 4/10 for +19 tatk. i'm literally not even commenting on this...

3) fire+ice fo tree with 2/10 + 2/5 lightning SP. 2/10+2/5 results in 20% of the 44% you'd get from maxing both masteries. for 4SP that is an enormous chunk of damage for when you do use a lightning tech or zandion which I'd safely say outweighs a 4% damage increase to only fire or only ice casting.

I think the biggest irony of all of this is you go through all of this work to get 6% more damage with single element trees, yet you don't use talis... something that gets you a lot more than 6% damage for using correctly.

Also, let's be honest, your trees would look a bit weaker element wise if you didn't plan the Tech Charge Advance 2 and Elemental Weakness points we'll be getting back in December. Te tree would go from 5/10 tatkup to 3/10 and shifta adv 5/5 -> 2/5. Hardly noticeable changes and you still have 3 ele te sub. Fo tree would lose the lightning SP and 1 pt in rod shoot since the majority of pp regen is still rod's base pp regen anyway.

[the_importer_]

let's deal with these one at a time...
the only one of any of these that merits needing a lightning tree would be time attacking Lilipa SH TA and i'm not saying the CO, i'm saying the weekly ranking. none of the others require any sort of lightning skill points whatsoever to one shot literally anything...
Well let’s be fair here, if we’re gonna go with that way of thinking, a Fo/Te at Lv 80/80 could run SH anything without any elemental mastery period and still kick ass, level and gear alone can kill mobs and bosses. That being said, in the event that we get XH on every free field, this will be an all new ball game.

with all due respect, i've probably spent more time fighting anga with force than you've spent time playing this game. i also have no idea how that's related to lightning skill tree points when ilbarta or samegid/gimegid are much better than any other off element techs for anga.
I somehow doubt that you’ve spent the equivalent of over 5000 hours fighting Anga, so we’ll just go with the fact that you probably fought it more than I did mainly due to the fact that I don’t go rare hunting (no luck of the draw for stuff I actually want/need). As for the other thing, I was mainly pointing the fact that you can’t ignore an entire planet where the main enemies weakness is bolt while turning around and say that you need more elements in order to kill Anga.

what the hell are you doing that anga resists rod? the only way that's possible is from rod smacks and rod shoot. as for not using talis, that is a huge personal problem.
JA Tech, the rod shot will sometime hit Anga and with my shitty luck, it’s enough to make Anga resist rods. The new skill that coming up should help with this. As for Talis, we’ll come back to that.

well for one, you need to treat fo and te trees separately, they have different functions. 5/10 tatkup1 vs 10/10tatkup1 while sacrificing 1 element on te sub tree makes absolutely no sense in ep5. having the versatility of 3 element te sub enormously outweighs a less than 1% damage increase. as for fo tree, it goes 1 of 3 ways:
1) single element fo tree with tatkup1/2 both maxed for base + 115tatk compared to 2element + 4/15 lightning SP. 115 base tatk equates to roughly 4% damage. the only time this will make a relevant difference is again if you to weekly TA rankings like tokyo XH or nab1/2. if you aren't doing those, the only difference you will see is a small change in #'s but never hits. you'd be saving on average 1 hit every 24 hits of damage that you do which would very, very rarely save you a cast to begin with.
2) fire+ice fo tree with no lightning SP, tatkup2 4/10 for +19 tatk. i'm literally not even commenting on this...
3) fire+ice fo tree with 2/10 + 2/5 lightning SP. 2/10+2/5 results in 20% of the 44% you'd get from maxing both masteries. for 4SP that is an enormous chunk of damage for when you do use a lightning tech or zandion which I'd safely say outweighs a 4% damage increase to only fire or only ice casting.
You can try to spin it however you want, but fact remains that in over 90% of every quest you do in this game, 2 elements are needed, 1 from Fo and one from Te, the game was designed this way in the first place. Now that we have our facts straight, answer me with a Yes or No, against the same boss with the same gear, same affix but with our respective skill tree strategy, will I do more damage than you. Remember, Yes or No only.

Now I’ll be honest in this next part by saying that I’ve only started playing EP5 and stopped to do the chronicle thing. That being said, I’ve checked swiki and only 4 out of 23 enemies require something else than Fire and Light, (17.39% of the enemies) and since I have yet played this through, I don’t know if some of these are isolated in separate quests which could allow me to grab my Ice / Light setup instead of Fire / Light.

I think the biggest irony of all of this is you go through all of this work to get 6% more damage with single element trees, yet you don't use talis... something that gets you a lot more than 6% damage for using correctly.
You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Te tree would go from 5/10 tatkup to 3/10 and shifta adv 5/5 -> 2/5. Hardly noticeable changes and you still have 3 ele te sub. Fo tree would lose the lightning SP and 1 pt in rod shoot since the majority of pp regen is still rod's base pp regen anyway.
Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

[Zephyrion]

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

People simply don't use Talis because they dislike it. Talis will always hit harder than Rod once it's set, just because Talis Tech Bonus is that big. The main issue with Talis is its rigidity, making it hard to use correctly when things become too heated. Aside from using it for compounds, rod is mainly used then you need to duel very aggressive bosses that will not let you use your Talis and/or when you're dealing with techs that don't really shine when used from a Talis (best example of both issues are Amduscia UQ boss when they aggro you). In any case, Talis vs Rod has never even been a thing, any FO worth its penny will actively use both.


Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

I won't discuss tree matters, because if you wanted to be an optimal FO you'd have to make a very wide array of trees, because of the sheer amount of quests requiring different numbers of elements (SEGA finally caught up on this and added Lightning weakness as an extra for Polytan, and I wish they made that for more seasonals). You could endlessly discuss which is better and never come to an agreement, because unless you have unlimited amounts of AC to spend, you're going to end up compromising for your tree/trees

as for Rod PP Shoot, I agree it's a fairly nice boon. However, you have plenty of other ways to resplenish your PP. Rod normals is only a situational one for melee fighting, but you also have PP convert (skill or ring), Queen Viera, Orbit passive regen, Ketos Proi Photon Blast ony to name the main ones. Personally I use rod shoot to cast one or two extra techs to finish off something, but for any prolonged fight, I will rely on other options, as the PP regen for them is so vastly better than it makes up for the time spent not dealing damage.

Incidentally, while it's none of my business, this thread is severly veering off topic, that kind of discussion would be better in class discussion (god knows FO thread needs some love right now :) )

[milranduil]

Well let’s be fair here, if we’re gonna go with that way of thinking, a Fo/Te at Lv 80/80 could run SH anything without any elemental mastery period and still kick ass, level and gear alone can kill mobs and bosses. That being said, in the event that we get XH on every free field, this will be an all new ball game.

I somehow doubt that you’ve spent the equivalent of over 5000 hours fighting Anga, so we’ll just go with the fact that you probably fought it more than I did mainly due to the fact that I don’t go rare hunting (no luck of the draw for stuff I actually want/need). As for the other thing, I was mainly pointing the fact that you can’t ignore an entire planet where the main enemies weakness is bolt while turning around and say that you need more elements in order to kill Anga.

JA Tech, the rod shot will sometime hit Anga and with my shitty luck, it’s enough to make Anga resist rods. The new skill that coming up should help with this. As for Talis, we’ll come back to that.

You can try to spin it however you want, but fact remains that in over 90% of every quest you do in this game, 2 elements are needed, 1 from Fo and one from Te, the game was designed this way in the first place. Now that we have our facts straight, answer me with a Yes or No, against the same boss with the same gear, same affix but with our respective skill tree strategy, will I do more damage than you. Remember, Yes or No only.

Now I’ll be honest in this next part by saying that I’ve only started playing EP5 and stopped to do the chronicle thing. That being said, I’ve checked swiki and only 4 out of 23 enemies require something else than Fire and Light, (17.39% of the enemies) and since I have yet played this through, I don’t know if some of these are isolated in separate quests which could allow me to grab my Ice / Light setup instead of Fire / Light.

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

i'm done with this discussion... you ignored nearly all of the points i made, instead made your own separate points rather than providing actual counterargument, and your points are littered with logical fallacies and inexperience. good day.

[Altiea]

"B-But being wrong on the internet is sacreliege!"

Honestly, I do think this entire argument is kinda absurd...

[the_importer_]

People simply don't use Talis because they dislike it. Talis will always hit harder than Rod once it's set, just because Talis Tech Bonus is that big. The main issue with Talis is its rigidity, making it hard to use correctly when things become too heated. Aside from using it for compounds, rod is mainly used then you need to duel very aggressive bosses that will not let you use your Talis and/or when you're dealing with techs that don't really shine when used from a Talis (best example of both issues are Amduscia UQ boss when they aggro you). In any case, Talis vs Rod has never even been a thing, any FO worth its penny will actively use both.

Probably is when you're trying to get a full elemental set. 6 weapons is already a pain, imagine 12 :p


I won't discuss tree matters, because if you wanted to be an optimal FO you'd have to make a very wide array of trees, because of the sheer amount of quests requiring different numbers of elements (SEGA finally caught up on this and added Lightning weakness as an extra for Polytan, and I wish they made that for more seasonals). You could endlessly discuss which is better and never come to an agreement, because unless you have unlimited amounts of AC to spend, you're going to end up compromising for your tree/trees

Agreed. While the vast majority of quests only required 2, a certain number of EQ do have enemies from different planets which require a mix of different elements and that would probably require more trees than the maximum allowed in the game (if there's still a limit that is). On my end, I'll get the trees that will affect the most enemies in the quest and I'll focus on those, leaving the rest for the other players.


as for Rod PP Shoot, I agree it's a fairly nice boon. However, you have plenty of other ways to resplenish your PP. Rod normals is only a situational one for melee fighting, but you also have PP convert (skill or ring), Queen Viera, Orbit passive regen, Ketos Proi Photon Blast ony to name the main ones. Personally I use rod shoot to cast one or two extra techs to finish off something, but for any prolonged fight, I will rely on other options, as the PP regen for them is so vastly better than it makes up for the time spent not dealing damage.

When it's an EQ with mobs, I'll save my PB and PP Convert for the bosses or mid-bosses and Rod Shoot for mobs.Between walking to the next mob and having my Mag trigger refill my PPs, running out is usually not a problem since I have a lot of it.


Incidentally, while it's none of my business, this thread is severly veering off topic, that kind of discussion would be better in class discussion (god knows FO thread needs some love right now :) )

Pretty sure it's over now.


i'm done with this discussion... you ignored nearly all of the points i made, instead made your own separate points rather than providing actual counterargument, and your points are littered with logical fallacies and inexperience. good day.

Suit yourself mate, but I could say the same thing about you, and my points were real simple ones.

[maoulizbeth]

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

talis tech bonus is 20% lol how are you not noticing it. and everyone /is/ using talis when appropriate unless they're drunk or lost their braincells long ago. also meleeing with rod gets you both shoot and whack which is a huge amount of pp. you might as well just do fast talis throws if youre only rod shooting for pp...honestly im not sure how one person can be so wrong in their convictions even when theres easy evidence out there

[Ceresa]

Well let’s be fair here, if we’re gonna go with that way of thinking, a Fo/Te at Lv 80/80 could run SH anything without any elemental mastery period and still kick ass, level and gear alone can kill mobs and bosses. That being said, in the event that we get XH on every free field, this will be an all new ball game.

I somehow doubt that you’ve spent the equivalent of over 5000 hours fighting Anga, so we’ll just go with the fact that you probably fought it more than I did mainly due to the fact that I don’t go rare hunting (no luck of the draw for stuff I actually want/need). As for the other thing, I was mainly pointing the fact that you can’t ignore an entire planet where the main enemies weakness is bolt while turning around and say that you need more elements in order to kill Anga.

JA Tech, the rod shot will sometime hit Anga and with my shitty luck, it’s enough to make Anga resist rods. The new skill that coming up should help with this. As for Talis, we’ll come back to that.

You can try to spin it however you want, but fact remains that in over 90% of every quest you do in this game, 2 elements are needed, 1 from Fo and one from Te, the game was designed this way in the first place. Now that we have our facts straight, answer me with a Yes or No, against the same boss with the same gear, same affix but with our respective skill tree strategy, will I do more damage than you. Remember, Yes or No only.

Now I’ll be honest in this next part by saying that I’ve only started playing EP5 and stopped to do the chronicle thing. That being said, I’ve checked swiki and only 4 out of 23 enemies require something else than Fire and Light, (17.39% of the enemies) and since I have yet played this through, I don’t know if some of these are isolated in separate quests which could allow me to grab my Ice / Light setup instead of Fire / Light.

You’re gonna have to school me on this and provide evidences. When they released 12★ weapon tickets a couple of years back, I made an experiment where I bought a cheap 12★ rod and it’s talis equivalent, grinded and them and affixed them the same way, bought a new Fo tree, added the talis skills in it and started crunching the numbers. Most of the time, rod damage was a bit higher and any major damage variation on either weapon was attributed to critical hits.

When you think about it, hunter weapons: swords, wires lances and spears where each have their ups and down. If talis are really more powerful, why aren’t everyone using them? The way I see it, the advantage of using talis is to use your techs from a safe distance while rods hit harder but you need to be closer.

Not a big fan on how you decorate you Te tree, I would change subclass if I had to do it that way. As for rod shot, have you ever tried it to recharge your PP before? Night and day for me, more practical than rod whacking to regain PP faster and does more damage in the process.

Where to even begin...

Let's start with Rod Shoot I guess. The projectile gives 10pp at level 3. Rod actual hit was buffed to now give 20/22/25 pp per hit. In a 3 hit combo with Rod Shoot you'll regain 97 pp, Rod shoot is only providing 30% of that. If you aren't in range for your rod normals to hit, then you shouldn't be swinging your rod at all. Instead you should swap to Queen Viera for 18pp per hit + faster shots, and if you aren't close range you might as well be using a talis for the inherently higher DPP so you spend less time in pp recovery phases.

90% of the quests are 1 element each tree? Maybe, if you're counting every irrelevant trash field that could be stomped without a single element mastery anyways and only consume like 5 minutes of your day for DO runs.

Let's look at the relevant EM, which is the real 90% of the game:

Deus: Light and Dark, Ramegid 0, Samegid, Gimegid, Ragrants, Ilgrants, and Grants all have enormous value here. That's two from techer.
Mother: Light (and Ice technically for better Barantsion): Sure that's fine.
Yamato: Nothing you do matters
Omega Hunny: Fire, Ice, Light: Two from force, but as it's also a mobbing quest you're gonna want to sweep the large spawns with Fomelgion, which means you also want Dark. That's two from techer.
Polytan/Seasonal: Need everything, and there is always some spurious excuse for a seasonal em year round. 2017 badges made them worth running the entire year to fight Solo PD for cubes/ray. Expect the trend to continue in 2018.

Non-EM
Buster Quest: Same as the EM version
Ultimate Lilipa: Fire, Light for weaknesses. Darkness and Ice to power up your compounds.
Ultimate Amu: Lightning, Light for weaknesses. Wind and Ice to power up your compounds.
Ultimate Nab: Ice, Light for weaknesses. Happily they boost the same compound. Still good to have a fallback for Anga resists.

And for everything else? Well the trash is one shot either way, so the person who has both halves of their compound maxed will win on bosses, every time.

And T-Atk up in trees.

Milrandy's tree posted earlier (and he probably has spent 5000 hours fighting anga): http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12fbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIob CIobCIo0jdodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb0000000f doIb0000008dBbsiN2SGBI2gAgAIkqncKdFId000006dBInfcF fqnGAdBIkcFHNHNeA000009bIoIn0000000fdoIbIn0000000f dB0000000dBIb0000008

5 Elements maxed, T Atk 2 on techer yep, minimum 3/10 on both T Atk 1 done.

So that leaves 40+75 attack in Force tree, and 40 attack in Te tree for a total of 155 T. Attack.

My current stats
With Rod and standard buffs, no installs, 4571 attack.
With Talis and standard buffs, no installs, 4325 attack.

Enemies have around 300 defense
Rod: 4571-300 = 4271, 155 attack is about a 3.6% increase, less if you use installs
Talis: 4325-300 = 4025 155 attack is about a 3.8% increase, less if you use installs

Also need to mention I'm using hero all attack units, if I bothered with specialized T-Atk units, the contribution of those skill points would drop further.

Trading away an entire elemental mastery, that's 44% damage btw, and all the flexibility it brings for 4% at best is ridiculous. Especially when the compound techs benefit from mastery in both halves of their components.

And finally, talis vs rod, Same units, same buffs, same tree, same tech, same weapon attack and potential, same weapon affixes.

Rod
[spoiler-box]https://i.imgur.com/i5trhI2.jpg[/spoiler-box]

Talis
[spoiler-box]https://i.imgur.com/nR0XsCX.jpg[/spoiler-box]

That's a 13% increase in damage per hit. More DPP, more sustained DPS. Less floor licking when you zondeel because you're at range.

[Zorak000]

polytan only needs lightning :v

anyway I think I realized what you can do with the force skill tree when the next update hits: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12uAbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIo bCIobCIo0jdodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb0000000 fdoIb0000008dBbsiN2SGBI2GAqnIkqnIkdFIc000006dBInfc GjGAqBIkcFHNHNbn000009bIoIn0000000fdoIbIn0000000fd B0000000dBIb0000008

you can tri-element the force tree; but you would need to give up Flame S Charge, Bolt PP Save, Photon Flare, and the third point of Rod Shot in order to pull it all off.

this tree would really only be required for quests that want you to use multiple force elements, or if you don't want to buy extra trees just yet. if you can buy trees, you could still manage to do dual-elements trees if you leave photon flare out of it. meanwhile single-element trees can just boost the crud out of flare I guess

EDIT: whoops fire kind of requires flame s charge to even function right; my bad

[milranduil]

Suit yourself mate, but I could say the same thing about you, and my points were real simple ones.

a point is not a point at all when it has no logically consistent basis, and yours has none.


@ceresa
thank you for someone else voicing reason! the only correction I have is the 155atk is a base value, so it benefits from tree, drink, and shifta (+adv) to be about 6.5% for rod and 6.9% for talis, before timed abilities. however, the point of course remains the same, flexibility and compound damage >>> 6-7% damage anywhere outside of time attack rankings.

polytan only needs lightning :v

anyway I think I realized what you can do with the force skill tree when the next update hits: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skillcalc.php?12uAbCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIobCIo bCIobCIo0jdodBdo000000000dodA0000000jdoIbIb0000000 fdoIb0000008dBbsiN2SGBI2GAqnIkqnIkdFIc000006dBInfc GjGAqBIkcFHNHNbn000009bIoIn0000000fdoIbIn0000000fd B0000000dBIb0000008

you can tri-element the force tree; but you would need to give up Flame S Charge, Bolt PP Save, Photon Flare, and the third point of Rod Shot in order to pull it all off.

this tree would really only be required for quests that want you to use multiple force elements, or if you don't want to buy extra trees just yet. if you can buy trees, you could still manage to do dual-elements trees if you leave photon flare out of it. meanwhile single-element trees can just boost the crud out of flare I guess

then what do you do on any of the falz/darkers? lightning is great for mobbing, but not having ice mastery points for barantsion makes you pretty useless for boss dps anytime hunar/angle/dio/deus spawns.

regarding your tri-force tree, giving up flame s charge is a HUGE no-no. you might as well just dump fire entirely without s charge, that's how much it matters for fire dps. in areas you really need lightning SP (like I would use for amduscia UQ or polytan while it's still here) it'd be an ice/lightning tree.

[Zorak000]

yeah I ran the idea by another friend, and they also let me know about flame s charge. oh well.

anyway I was using Zandion on the bosses, since I was using lightning force with tri-element techer. the boosted turn radius they gave it recently makes it pretty easy to land the whole attack on them as long as you are locked on (and don't get motion sick easily)

unless swiki is wrong about it; it sounds like zandion does have enough damage to stand up with barantsion if you are landing the whole thing. oh and the invincibility makes it great for not getting killed

[milranduil]

yeah I ran the idea by another friend, and they also let me know about flame s charge. oh well.

anyway I was using Zandion on the bosses, since I was using lightning force with tri-element techer. the boosted turn radius they gave it recently makes it pretty easy to land the whole attack on them as long as you are locked on (and don't get motion sick easily)

unless swiki is wrong about it; it sounds like zandion does have enough damage to stand up with barantsion if you are landing the whole thing. oh and the invincibility makes it great for not getting killed

i agree that zandion is much better than it used to be, but barantsion's more easily targetable damage on a weak point still makes it better for hunar/dio. with the boosted enemy damage, zandion is probably fine for angel/deus though.

[Zorak000]

it's pretty messed up that fire techs need flame S charge that badly; guess that's what the ring is for I suppose

[ArcaneTechs]

man, dodged a bullet not giving class builds/advice ww

[GoldenFalcon]

I just like how the new skill will make it much better to cast spells without throwing a talis

[ArcaneTechs]

I just like how the new skill will make it much better to cast spells without throwing a talis
you lose 20% dmg when you dont have that card thrown, you realize this right?

[Zorak000]

yeah that's like most of the reason to even bother with talis; aside from being able to toss point-blank AoE techs into places that would normally be too dangerous to go in yourself, but that's beside the point.

I guess im feeling force right now like I do bouncer: still pretty great when I dont need to cover more than maybe 2 elements tops. been feeling pretty great taking it into ult nab, polytan, and probably ult lilipa next week

[ArcaneTechs]

FO in Lilipa is gonna be great, back to fire spam all day, infinite PP regen via Super Treatment because someone will always have Burn SE on them. It wont be a prob for FO and TE.

[GoldenFalcon]

you lose 20% dmg when you dont have that card thrown, you realize this right?
I know, it's just that sometimes you don't want a thrown talis (Zonde 0 in some cases) but then again I guess everyone who matters has twelve 13* force weapons already

[ArcaneTechs]

I know, it's just that sometimes you don't want a thrown talis (Zonde 0 in some cases) but then again I guess everyone who matters has twelve 13* force weapons already
i dont have rainbow palletes for FO, i never found it useful enough and not only that Fornis saves some money for some of the elements.

[escarlata]

I know, it's just that sometimes you don't want a thrown talis (Zonde 0 in some cases) but then again I guess everyone who matters has twelve 13* force weapons already
On the mention of 12 weapons, not that many is actually necessary imo right?
Dark techs can be casted entirely from Talis because of their targetting.
Wind techs are wonky as heck to hit with Talis so just Rod is fine.
And Lightning can largely be overlooked, or just use off element weapons.
So that narrows to just 8 weapons to get in reality yes?