Underground Nightmare: New Raid 7/25 - your thoughts/impressions

[ArcaneTechs]

definitely a 7/10, Caves portion is good the rest is not that bad or rather its ok, thankfully you get maxed out Luther DB in case for those people who didn't max out anything or are behind on skills (when you die it acts like AIS 5's respawn). Definitely would consider a better boss theme than this horrible song, it just doesnt fit the boss

Destroying all the wings allows a 2nd dmg phase and sphere breaking does something else i'm not sure of (i think reduces the dmg apprentices ray does)

[Poyonche]

STAAAAAARGAAZEEEEER

[Aurorra]

Disconnected immediately on killing the boss. !@#$!@#$!@#
0/10

[Suirano]

This is a pretty solid mission. I enjoyed myself with this fight.
I can see the first part being a bit annoying if you have a bad pug.

[oratank]

overall look fine but apprentice is very weak

[Ahri]

This omega apprentice no is futa how in TD4 :lol:

[AlphaBlob]

I like the map layout in the first part, I hope they make a field similar to this in the future.

[XrosBlader821]

Finally a EQ with a Finisher animation that involves the entire Party. This was imo the coolest thing about EP3 Raids and it was so jarring to have them drop it in EP4 Raids. Here's to hope they don't forget that for the inevitable Omega PD Raid.

[wefwq]

I'm liking the tank defense part a lot, but the very last part should be slightly harder IMO.
For some reason, transformed tank remind me of metal gear.

[FantasyHeaven]

The tank part is good. It should have randomized spawns and missions like in magatsu though. Maybe even a somewhat randomized map, since they have the technology.
The second and third part feel completely unnecessary. They should've just put those resources into the tank part instead.

[Mr3chi]

walking dead the eq. i'm a litle bit disappointed of how slow-paced it's compared to current trending/boosting eqs.
defending phase: running, loot, hitting walls. it's maybe even slower and smaller in enemy scale than old-school mining bases. ppl can aggue it's because of defending mechanism, but sega should've added something like random trials (w difficulty gap?) for the type of rushing.
DB phase: more likely a lesser action version of yamato, staying at a corner + holding buttons insteads of flying ais
Final phase: 'finally some killing...', 'huh, is that all?'

[RefrainDP]

I'm liking the tank defense part a lot, but the very last part should be slightly harder IMO.
For some reason, transformed tank remind me of metal gear.

I thought the exact same thing when I saw it transform.

[Masu]

It is ...weird. I don't dislike it but:
After deadly dragon, then not deadly enough Loser, here comes lay down Apprentice.
Only one run for me and maybe I stumbled into a good mpa but I didn't felt threatened in the slightest.
This eq feel kinda wasted potential.

@Kril: Rappy pet drop from this eq :D

Edit: Also lol at Shrayda trying to breed with tank xD

[ArcaneTechs]

It is ...weird. I don't dislike it but:
After deadly dragon, then not deadly enough Loser, here comes lay down Apprentice.
Only one run for me and maybe I stumbled into a good mpa but I didn't felt threatened in the slightest.
This eq feel kinda wasted potential.

@Kril: Rappy pet drop from this eq :D

Edit: Also lol at Shrayda trying to breed with tank xD
its a scrapped EQ idea and well good one half, decent on the 2nd.

dam you dude, Rappy Egg refuses to drop for me all last week during mom/dad boost, i dont want to run SU on this EQ yet

[SteveCZ]

I guess I'll just stick with Dragon and Loser.

[cheapgunner]

I didn't find much to heate about the EQ. The tunnel portion was neat but what I really loved was the ""Boss on the edge" style of ground fighting we did.I kinda feel this is what we sh9ould have done to Loser as he's holding on to one last inch of the field, grasping for dear life.

[XrosBlader821]

I think some people are forgetting that the EQ is easy on purpose because the 4-man Trigger version will be harder. The exact same thing happened with Loser.

[Jene-chan]

I think some people are forgetting that the EQ is easy on purpose because the 4-man Trigger version will be harder. The exact same thing happened with Loser.

But O. Loser trigger isn't any more difficult than the EQ version? The only thing more "difficult" is the smaller party size and the need to bring someone who can open the clock.

[wefwq]

But O. Loser trigger isn't any more difficult than the EQ version? The only thing more "difficult" is the smaller party size and the need to bring someone who can open the clock.
He deal more damage but that's about it.

[XrosBlader821]

He deal more damage but that's about it.

And because of the higher level & 50% damage resistance compounds charge way slower. Not sure if true or not but in my experience the clock is way harder to open too (might be simply back luck though).
Also if you go to the old Omega Loser thread you'll see that the biggest gripe people had with the EQ was that Loser didn't do any damage at all (aside of being a cheap paintjob).
Either way this is the format Sega seems to like now. Make easy quest that anyone can beat and drop a harder version as trade able trigger.

[Dark Mits]

It is something new and unique, so we have to give props to Sega for it. I'd like to see more escort missions in the future.
The 2nd phase with the Loser Form... not my favourite part of the fight. Then again I am not a fan of AIS phase in Yamato either.
The music was... odd. Not menacing and fitting for a boss that is basically an agent of destruction and ruin. The fact that it was escalating during the escort part was however a very nice touch.
The final phase was also quite a pleasant surprise, instead of abruplty getting our rewards while defeating the boss mid-air. It didn't leave a "wow" sensation, but that's maybe because we've been spoiled already with the way previous boss end-phases have been played out.

[TehCubey]

Done it some more - still easy, still fun.

Might get samey with repetition, even dragon did after all. We'll see when we get there. For now I appreciate them doing something different.

[Anduril]

Missed the first three because I was asleep (time zone woes), but I finally caught one, and I enjoyed it, though I can imagine that with a bad pug, the first part can probably be really hard. I liked the boss phase, though having the auto-respawn did make that part feel kinda easy and almost inconsequential with the hour long time limit (and this is coming from someone who isn't always up on the highest dps strats and builds). Also, I loved the ending cutscene; it felt so campy and awesome. Overall, I did enjoy it.

[Sayara]

It was alright, I suck at Loser flying so that was a struggle though.

[ArcaneTechs]

It was alright, I suck at Loser flying so that was a struggle though.
im struggling with the counter healing dodges since for w/e reason you know you countered it but you still get dmg'd so I either have to spam the dodge or do it sorta early to get it

[Sayara]

Is there an indicator that you dodged correctly besides the HP thing? Because sometimes he laughs when i dodge and it makes me think i did it right...

[ArcaneTechs]

Is there an indicator that you dodged correctly besides the HP thing? Because sometimes he laughs when i dodge and it makes me think i did it right...
far as i know i dont think so, you laugh almost every time you dodge. basically only time i know i did it right is if i healed otherwise take the hit and die

[oratank]

I liked the boss phase, though having the auto-respawn did make that part feel kinda easy and almost inconsequential with the hour long time limit

ัyeah it make her big ass beam blender feel nothing.just let it hit from begin for a fast respawn unlike yamato nuke phase it still reward if we can prevent it :/

[Hysteria1987]

Haven't had a chance to play it yet, but it looks like something different from the norm which is a good thing.

A friend did describe it to me as Yamato 2.0 only slower, though, which I gotta say doesn't bode well... But I'm keen to give it a crack.

[ArcaneTechs]

Haven't had a chance to play it yet, but it looks like something different from the norm which is a good thing.

A friend did describe it to me as Yamato 2.0 only slower, though, which I gotta say doesn't bode well... But I'm keen to give it a crack.
average pug times are 15-20mins+ as a fyi

[TheFanaticViper]

Really fun EQ, it's nice to see something different! The first part is a really good surprise! Sure part 2 & 3 could be more challenging, but it's ok.
And a free field in this cavern could be great :D

[Meteor Weapon]

Anyone got RIP music for the tank phase?

[Jene-chan]

So I finally got around to running this EQ. It's...inoffensive. There were a number of things I didn't like.

The EQ itself seems to have pacing issues. The tank phase is 10 minutes, the Dark Blast phase is 5 minutes and then we finally come face to face with the boss for...an entire minute. The transitions between phases are kind of lacking for me as well. When you transition from Dark Blast to being back on foot, it ends so quickly that my initial reaction was, "wait, that's it?". It would feel less weird if the tank segment duration was cut in half and the actual boss fight was extended. It's also annoying that there is really nothing you can do to significantly speed up the tank segment through proper mobbing and DPS since it seems it will take the same amount of time regardless.

Dark Blast segment is...I really don't like using Dark Blast in general - I'd rather be playing my actual character/class. That's how I feel on that. lol

As everyone has said, it's really easy, almost nothing threatening the entire time. It's PSO2 - it's easy, I know, but it doesn't help me get invested in the actual EQ if it's so braindead.

The rematch/trigger might be more interesting if it's an extended version of the last phase or the last two phases. If it's just the Dark Blast segment similar to YMT Rematch, that will be so disappointing. Have they said anything about that?

The 14*s actually seem pretty cool, though. The rifle in particular has me interested BUT I'm really not up these days for rolling the dice with no guarantee of drops, so I'm not too invested in it.

[Sora Yuuki]

Overall it's been an okay EQ for me, but the most enjoyable phase of it is the end. The drops have been weak sauce so far, and phase 2 sucks major dong. I'm gonna keep doing it until I get that beautiful Gunslash and a Phobos set. Those are the real highlights of the EQ for me.

[silo1991]

i finally had a chance to play the EQ , its easy not a challenge the tank phase was beautiful i hope we have a free field in those caves and if that happens i hope the music does not result boring like the volcanic caves .

now lets get to the bad points which is the aprentice it self is really easy , i mean more than yamato , also i expected the battle to be similar to him . it dissapoint me the fact that aprentice is locked in the border of the map , i wanted to get close to her like a suicide soldier and use the burst on the core .

and for finish her music was so anticlimatic i expected her theme be i dont know more ''terrorific'' (i had that standard from TD4)

[the_importer_]

I like the tank part (nice way to complete darker CO), not a big fan of the air battle since I'm not a big SHMUP fan and the final part was waaaay too easy.

[Moffen]

I dont think the final part is meant to be hard,its basically someone you hate hanging off a cliff and you slowly stepping on their fingers til they fall off.
But they blow up instead.

[Zorak000]

I liked the tank segment; even if it's got a static minimal completion time, though I'd probably have to file this fight under the EQs I wouldn't want to stay up late for; which are mostly all just repeatable EQs or ones with rematches/phase 2 fights.

The aerial fight segment is kinda held back by the loser blast imo; loser blast in general lacks the weight or feedback most of the combat in this game has, it just kinda feels hollow I suppose.

The final part has a nice "time to finish them off" feel, but it does feel a bit tacked on

[Tymek]

People dislike the Dark Blast part a lot, huh.

[echofaith]

Takes to long for my taste, and cubes drops arent any better than Dragon or Loser. I will skip doing this EQ.

[Anduril]

People dislike the Dark Blast part a lot, huh.

I think it just has to do with the fact that it feels kinda inconsequential. It makes a really good visual set piece, but there are no real stakes at that point in the fight since you still have 45+ minutes on the timer and there is no real penalty except for a 5 second time-out if you get hit too many times. In this last one, I let myself get immediately hit by the big spinning laser thing she does and I respawned exactly as it was ending, and for it being a powerful special attack, being able to do that makes it lackluster.

[Jene-chan]

People dislike the Dark Blast part a lot, huh.

I really don't like Dark Blast in general but Loser Dark Blast in particular is pretty lame to me. Having an entire segment dedicated to it where you essentially can't lose isn't exactly gripping to me.

[Kondibon]

The interview shedding light on this originally having been planed as a final to TD makes the loser part make more sense. It was probably originally going to be AIS.

I don't really hate the Dark Blast phase, but I wish the parts surrounding it were longer. Like Anduril said, it feels inconsequential. I like the escort phase, and I don't mind that it's easy to keep the tank alive, but I wish it was longer and got more intense in terms of mob spawns. The ground phase of the boss is also too short. Even the dragon is more mechanically interesting.

EDIT: oh right, the escort music is great, but I don't like that the boss theme is just appregina's theme with some extra vocals. Vocals that sound weird I might add. I'm not sure if it's the singer or what but it sounds really stilted compared to the other lyrics they've used in that invented language.

[ArcaneTechs]

People dislike the Dark Blast part a lot, huh.
Luther DB is honestly boring, I still like using Elder DB way more than Luther since its basically higher DPS and feels a lot more satisfying to play where Luther is just charge beam shoot over and over spam barta etc




I don't really hate the Dark Blast phase, but I wish the parts surrounding it were longer. Like Anduril said, it feels inconsequential. I like the escort phase, and I don't mind that it's easy to keep the tank alive, but I wish it was longer and got more intense in terms of mob spawns. The ground phase of the boss is also too short. Even the dragon is more mechanically interesting.

I think mob spawn location could use work, when they spawn on both sides seems to be the only time its a real threat since realistically the threat should be all around you not just in front only or sometimes on the sides. The run needs more Flame Dialmos though since people still struggle with it lol

[silo1991]

i just remember something , sega did something unlogical and out of tendency , why release a raid of aprentice without the DB form .

talking about it , i hope aprentice DB does not requiere dodging stuff like DB loser did , because seriusly that requierement its bugged , even if i dodge suceffully 5 attacks and none of them counted ( 1 of many expiriences also i have it max out with my 3 chars)

[Kondibon]

i just remember something , sega did something unlogical and out of tendency , why release a raid of aprentice without the DB form .
I brought this up when the first full trailer was shown without showing App DB. I'm not sure why its dropping a month after the EQ when it seems to basically be done at this point.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

I really don't like Dark Blast in general but Loser Dark Blast in particular is pretty lame to me. Having an entire segment dedicated to it where you essentially can't lose isn't exactly gripping to me.

I don't like being FORCED to use dark blast for anything.

[Kondibon]

Do people really hate DB that much?

Actually I'm more curious WHY people hate DB so much, it's just AIS again.

[Jene-chan]

Do people really hate DB that much?

Actually I'm more curious WHY people hate DB so much, it's just AIS again.

Honestly, Hunar DB is is more or less fine to me but I hate being forced to use it. Vader boost was annoying for a multitude of reasons, but one of the key ones is that their focus was nerf player damage but boost DB gain so that it we were forced to DB during it. It's the same problem with AIS, though AIS is limited in the sense that it's usage is specific to some maps.

Loser DB in most cases is just lack luster. It's intended to be good for movement/mobbing but in a lot of cases, Hunar DB can do it passably OR you can stay untransformed and have just as good if not better mobbing.

In almost all cases, I'd rather just play my actual character/class.

[Kondibon]

In almost all cases, I'd rather just play my actual character/class.You can do that in almost all of the content, a couple of quests being built around it isn't that bad.

[Jene-chan]

You can do that in almost all of the content, a couple of quests being built around it isn't that bad.

I mean, you acknowledge that people don't like being forced into AIS but it's the exact same thing with DB. If you understand that some people really don't like it, I'm not sure why it would be surprising that they don't like the DB segment of this fight. lol

Especially since it's so inconsequential.

[Will_2_Power]

Honestly for me, I'd think it'd be sooooo much incredibly cooler if instead of DBs, we can just summon/board/ride a customizable (meaning, its looks and whatnot) AIS for 60 seconds on the field. They can even give it some cool kick-ass skills.

I think that'd kick more ass than any DB any day.

[Kondibon]

I mean, you acknowledge that people don't like being forced into AIS but it's the exact same thing with DB. If you understand that some people really don't like it, I'm not sure why it would be surprising that they don't like the DB segment of this fight. lol

Especially since it's so inconsequential.I didn't realize people hate AIS this strongly either. That's why I said it's AIS again. :wacko:
I think AIS are fun and I remember a bunch of people wanting AIS in normal maps (which would be dumb, but you get the point). Something like DB is a thing I've wanted for a while in PSO2 because I like temporary super modes in games like this.

[milranduil]

i personally have no problem and even enjoy planning when to use elder DB since it's so strong and its abilities are straightforward. luther DB has no punch to it (pun intended) and feels completely pointless in comparison besides diffusion ray.

[aiMute]

Do people really hate DB that much?

Actually I'm more curious WHY people hate DB so much, it's just AIS again.
I hate dankblast as idea and don't enjoy using it but still do because it's effective and this is the problem, you aren't forced but you are forced if you want efficiency. I'd rather everyone played their classes to the fullest and not use that magical crutch to solve problems. Sega could spend time they wasted on dorkblast to improve existing classes and fix the mess caused by Hero but instead we get more of that shit. I also don't enjoy that my characters voice is replaced by some stupid idiot and see those stupid idiots running/flying/jumping around, though at least I can turn my own DB into almost invisible Stand.

[Kondibon]

I feel like this is turning into the same situation I had with Su where I actually like how little feedback there is.


Sega could spend time they wasted on dorkblast to improve existing classes and fix the mess caused by Hero

You mean like they have been and said they're going to continue doing?

[milranduil]

I hate dankblast as idea and don't enjoy using it but still do because it's effective and this is the problem, you aren't forced but you are forced if you want efficiency. I'd rather everyone played their classes to the fullest and not use that magical crutch to solve problems. Sega could spend time they wasted on dorkblast to improve existing classes and fix the mess caused by Hero but instead we get more of that shit. I also don't enjoy that my characters voice is replaced by some stupid idiot and see those stupid idiots running/flying/jumping around, though at least I can turn my own DB into almost invisible Stand.

i think you've mistaken the year for 2017 instead of 2018

[aiMute]

You mean like they have been and said they're going to continue doing?
Which part? The one where Gu became one button mobbing class? The one where Fo-I mean Te got buffed? The one where they noticed that there was something very stupid with JBs mechanics for years? Or the one where they said that other classes will have mechanics similar First Blood and then decided to simply give everyone First Blood and that will take them another month to implement? Or was it something else like Hr-centric content despite that Hr screwing everyone over? There was a lot of crap and DB in the opposite direction of what I wanted sega to do. It's really Su all over again~

[Kondibon]

Which part? The one where Gu became one button mobbing class? The one where Fo-I mean Te got buffed? The one where they noticed that there was something very stupid with JBs mechanics for years? Or the one where they said that other classes will have mechanics similar First Blood and then decided to simply give everyone First Blood and that will take them another month to implement? Or was it something else like Hr-centric content despite that Hr screwing everyone over? There was a lot of crap and DB in the opposite direction of what I wanted sega to do. It's really Su all over again~I'm talking about all the updates to movement and fluidity of combat, not numbers. If you just want to talk about numbers getting overtuned then Hr has nothing to do with that. Remember S-roll adv? Remember Shunka? Remember Maron?

But no, lets blame Hr for anything in episode 5 that's overpowered, because clearly they don't have a track record for overtuning things already.

[ArcaneTechs]

But no, lets blame Hr for anything in episode 5 that's overpowered, because clearly they don't have a track record for overtuning things already.
Sega did say in their interview that HR and DB were the main problems basically for everything in Ep5

[Kondibon]

Sega did say in their interview that HR and DB were the main problems basically for everything in Ep5

If it takes a problem for them to fix old classes then I want them to have more problems.

EDIT: To clarify my feelings about Hr, I don't believe it actually CAUSED problems as much as it highlighted existing ones in regards to how the game feels. Even before Hr came out I felt the game was a bit clunky. They were doing things to improve that like the mobility rings and PAs, but then Hr came out and basically proved they could, and wanted to, do better in that regard.

I have no defense for DB, I just think it's an inoffensive fun toy, and doesn't really do much to actual game balance where it matters.

[Jene-chan]

If it takes a problem for them to fix old classes then I want them to have more problems.

problem that cost them a sizable part of the playerbase and made them change course and apologize for months on end*

[Kondibon]

problem that cost them a sizable part of the playerbase and made them change course and apologize for months on end*It's clearly a mistake they're trying to learn from though, which was my point.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

Do people really hate DB that much?

Actually I'm more curious WHY people hate DB so much, it's just AIS again.

Responding late, but my reasons for not liking dark blast includes:

-unneeded power. Did we really NEED it for current content? Of course not. But here's an EQ that MAKES us use it.
-I just don't like the concept of turning into a falz. I'd rather stick to piloting an AIS when a quest calls for some riding/flying/enemies everywhere moments. I'd rather see a few gundams, or whatever other flying pew-pew vehicle over a half-dozen multicolored falzes that are supposed to be players on screen.

MAYBE I'd find apprentice fun? I unno. I just generally prefer playing the class I chose at the class counter over going falz (Hr is just THAT fun for me). I had far more anticipation for class changes and more PAs than dark blast when they first shown off elder. My actual first reaction was literally "why though?".

[Kondibon]

-unneeded power. Did we really NEED it for current content? Of course not. But here's an EQ that MAKES us use it.You could say that about a lot of things in the game though. It just doesn't feel like that big of a deal of a single part of an EQ. I think it could stand to be shorter, but that's just because it's a boring fight compared to magatsu and yamato.


-I just don't like the concept of turning into a falz. I'd rather stick to piloting an AIS when a quest calls for some riding/flying/enemies everywhere moments. I'd rather see a few gundams, or whatever other flying pew-pew vehicle over a half-dozen multicolored falzes that are supposed to be players on screen.If this was a game that treated its multiplayer content as 100% canon I'd agree, but it doesn't. I like it thematically since it makes sense as a thing our character would be able to do given the context.

That said, if it was just different types of AIS I wouldn't mind, it's the mechanics I like more than the story implications. We could be turning into giant purple spheres and I'd still like it. I like super modes.

[oratank]

they should make a better final phase that make player feel like they use their class fighting a big bad boss not this bullying a poor creature

[KazukiQZ]

I miss AIS :(
Using it in Bonus quest just doesnt give the same feeling as using it in EQ lol

[Zephyrion]

they should make a better final phase that make player feel like they use their class fighting a big bad boss not this bullying a poor creature

I actually really love how this part pans out, but it would have been better with an on-foot part before it. It has such a unique feeling of squishing a damn bug after it bit you....except the part before doesn't bite at all,so the climax loses of its intensity. Still overall like this EQ, it fails in some aspects, but you can really see they tried to be original, add new mechanics, approach fights in a different way. It's so refreshing after god knows how many normal raids and seasonals. So if anything it makes eager for the future, hope they don't ditch trying to be original because this one EQ is poorly received.

[Dark Mits]

We have to acknowledge that the reason the Flying part is "trivial" is because we do not have on-demand healing. If each player or the whole mpa had limited amount of respawns, the failure rate would be significantly worse than the first week of Crimson Dragon's rematch.

And I think it's time for Sega to implement rewards based on personal performance, and not on outcome. You die once? Rank A instead of S. You die 5 times? Rank B. You die more than 10 times? Rank C. And then give Rank C +0% RDR boost for rewards, Rank B +10%, Rank A +25% and Rank S +50%.

Of course that would have to be balanced to avoid cases where groups break down because there is no TE in the group who likes to spam Resta.

[oratank]

I actually really love how this part pans out, but it would have been better with an on-foot part before it. It has such a unique feeling of squishing a damn bug after it bit you....except the part before doesn't bite at all.

yeah if it has a real battle before this phase i would gladly to squishing her or make a rank on death count in luther phase then the final phase will become a fuck you apprentice thanks for take away my S rank with your bullshit beam

[GHNeko]

new eq is fun but it feels really unfufilling and unrewarding.

only running it because the gs is a PSO1 weapon and i love anything PSO1.

[TheFanaticViper]

Anyone got RIP music for the tank phase?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKsNeuCzvvA

[Masu]

I think I found what is wrong (for me at least) with DB part. First I play tier 5 so maybe it have to do partly with it . The area have no depth feeling (some missing effects/shaders maybe) so dodging correctly is very random to me. Second I have the bad impression attacks and voice are kinda out of synch and 3rd the 2 aforementioned coupled with no sense of speed makes it terrible to run.

Edit: I have to had the fact that disabled lock because Dame Apprentice move is kinda infuriating too and THIS maybe have something to do with tier 5 vs tier 6 because I believe tier 6 have a higher draw distance...

[isCasted]

I didn't realize people hate AIS this strongly either. That's why I said it's AIS again. :wacko:
I think AIS are fun and I remember a bunch of people wanting AIS in normal maps (which would be dumb, but you get the point). Something like DB is a thing I've wanted for a while in PSO2 because I like temporary super modes in games like this.

The thing about super modes that makes them exciting is raised stakes. This is why I find using AIS in TD3/4 appealing - the temporary power boost you are given puts on you a heavy burden of responsibility, because you're meant to counteract forces that other players can't (or, rather, aren't supposed to) deal with. When you're riding AIS in those missions, all of your actions gain significantly more severe consequences; losing AIS or wasting a laser always significantly changes general dynamic of the quest for everyone involved.

Buster Quests, for example, don't have those occasional moments when suddenly 3 bosses and 6 enemy towers from different corners of the map decide to attack a single tower. Instead, a wave after wave they just send swarms of enemies that deal chip damage to towers if they ever happen to get close. The difference between using and not using DB at certain moments in BQ is a small numerical difference in time and/or score when the quest is over. Even if you are somehow close to losing or lost in BQ, the reason for that is lack of DPS in general and not because you made mistakes at critical moments, thus using super modes doesn't feel impactful.

Let's also add the fact that AIS and DBs are just nowhere near as deep in terms of mechanics as our actual classes (unless you take meme cases like S-Roll Arts spam into account), so there's hardly any ways to optimize your playstyle (which is something you can always do in your regular form, even without high stakes. This is why PSO2 is/was so engaging despite being an easy game overall). So, when there's no actual pressure to do better (AIS/DB-only fights being the epitome of that), using them becomes infinitely less engaging. You don't really need to learn boss strategies and watch out for incoming damage when enemies like Anga at the end of Amduscia UQ (even during 100% ATK boost) can't even outdamage your heals in Elder form while you're holding down Infinity Smash (or w/e that move is called) for 90% of the uptime (and you're doing it that way because it's the best thing you can do).

[XrosBlader821]

Had my first failed run today. Threw a look into what my teammates looked like.
A Te/Fo using +30 EPD : ok_hand :
Gotta love expert Matching

[Jene-chan]

(unless you take meme cases like S-Roll Arts spam into account)

This is unrelated, but since I've been a Gu main since essentially EP3, I wanted to say that, while yes, I agree S-Roll Arts is stupid, it doesn't take away from the core intricacies of Gunner class (Chain management/uptime, knowledge of bossing, situational awareness of when to be aerial vs. when you can be closer to the ground, et cetera). All of the meta players who run Endless have picked up Gunner (as referenced by the player stats) but in general Gunner is still one of the least played classes probably due to it's actual playstyle and perceived awkwardness. Obviously, S-Roll Arts takes GU mobbing (which sucked before) and makes it easily one of the best mobbing classes in the game in addition to giving them a way to build Chain while doing damage, but it's not like you can just take any player, slap them on Gunner and suddenly they're doing all of the damage in the MPA. Every random Gunner I encounter is usually not very strong.

On that matter, general MPA strength lately has been on a downturn which I'm not sure if you can attribute to some of the stronger players either quitting, being on hiatus, or doing content with their own group of friends or to the fact that people are using MPA EQs for leveling (e.g. Mother/Deus) since they give good EXP and have no penalty for poor performance or death.

The amount of awkward class combos I've seen (TeFo, FoSu, HuWhateverTheirMainActuallyIs) in addition to players who have low contributions (e.g. Fighters who are getting scraped every other minute) makes it more annoying to try to run this stuff.

Disclaimer: I know PSO2 is casual; this is just observation.

[Maulcun]

Loser flying so sucks

[MightyHarken]

Sega did say in their interview that HR and DB were the main problems basically for everything in Ep5

Good. Maybe next time, they will not do whack shit, and just stick to normal phantasy star content. This quest is the most 90s pure PS style quest I've done in this game since it started and it's got my full props to it. However, I hate using DB, moreso because it's a nerf to my damage, and I'm not a fan of transformations.

[isCasted]

This is unrelated, but since I've been a Gu main since essentially EP3, I wanted to say that, while yes, I agree S-Roll Arts is stupid, it doesn't take away from the core intricacies of Gunner class (Chain management/uptime, knowledge of bossing, situational awareness of when to be aerial vs. when you can be closer to the ground, et cetera). It does take away having to string your PAs together appropriately (which is very much a core part of the entire game) for the entire time when Chain isn't applicable. Even mobbing-wise Gunner has always had a fairly diverse selection of PAs, even if they were weak. Just because it's not completely braindead doesn't mean it's magnitudes less engaging than it used to be.

in general Gunner is still one of the least played classes probably due to it's actual playstyle and perceived awkwardness.Historically Gunner has always been pretty awkward in a lot of ways. A lot of its issues have been addressed, but some still remain. Hitbox dissonance is still a thing, non-melee AOE moves still often love to hit shit that you aren't actually aiming for (at least S-Roll Arts can actually sustain chain on spots that IF-0/SatAim prefer, trying to sustain chain on those with basic attacks used to be hell). TPS aiming with S-Roll is still fundamentally broken; not only S-Roll awkwardly slows down your aim, your aim also affects the direction in which S-Roll moves. TPS camera locking is a problem with ranged moves in PSO2 in general, but on Gunner it's especially apparent given how often you need to adjust your aim in the process of movement.

Every random Gunner I encounter is usually not very strong.Makes sense, even with all the new safety nets Chain is still the biggest high-risk/high-reward mechanic in the game, and with Chain's cooldown being as low as its is and depending on your performance Gunner is more reliant on it than it's ever been.

On that matter, general MPA strength lately has been on a downturn which I'm not sure if you can attribute to some of the stronger players either quitting, being on hiatus, or doing content with their own group of friends or to the fact that people are using MPA EQs for leveling...Or the fact that Expert matching is pretty much no longer a thing, because you can get carried by your party mates through the required quest.

[Gaylar]

Not sure what's been going on on my end but I've only been able to complete the quest once.

Every other time so far has caused PSO2 to crash when mobs are spawning in the caves segment, its completely random.

[Dark Mits]

Not sure what's been going on on my end but I've only been able to complete the quest once.

Every other time so far has caused PSO2 to crash when mobs are spawning in the caves segment, its completely random.Do a check for Old/Missing files. Then once it's done, defragment your hard drive. You may want to perform a thorough disk scan before all that to ensure your actual hard drive is ok (chkdsk [drive] /v /r /x)

[ArcaneTechs]

Good. Maybe next time, they will not do whack shit, and just stick to normal phantasy star content. This quest is the most 90s pure PS style quest I've done in this game since it started and it's got my full props to it. However, I hate using DB, moreso because it's a nerf to my damage, and I'm not a fan of transformations.
i dont think what they did was wrong more or less some more testing should have been done maybe? probably could have prevented this entire balance issue (or minimized the dmg). as for Dark Blast, while I do miss Beast race, I like having it there as a reminder of what could have been or what IS here and been represented in another way (PSU's initial 4 Beast Mode's but in Falz forms)

also this Raid is getting annoying that I've only had 2 13*'s drop so far and thats doing multi ship runs, I just want SSA's man

[Jene-chan]

i dont think what they did was wrong more or less some more testing should have been done maybe? probably could have prevented this entire balance issue (or minimized the dmg).

The issue was more that Hero dropped, community outrage ensued and they went on stream and said Hero was working as intended and they were not going to nerf it and initially provided no follow up to a single statement of "we have some class balance planned". They didn't seem to think anything was wrong with the situation at all. Honestly, I don't think they even grasped how bad the disparity between Hero and the other classes was until the negative feedback started overflowing and people started jumping ship. They basically had to stop everything and work on large and sweeping balance changes for 3-4 months.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

The issue was more that Hero dropped, community outrage ensued and they went on stream and said Hero was working as intended and they were not going to nerf it and initially provided no follow up to a single statement of "we have some class balance planned". They didn't seem to think anything was wrong with the situation at all. Honestly, I don't think they even grasped how bad the disparity between Hero and the other classes was until the negative feedback started overflowing and people started jumping ship. They basically had to stop everything and work on large and sweeping balance changes for 3-4 months.

I second this. Hr didn't ruin the game as much as SEGA's handling of the whole situation was sloppy. In the end, Hr upped the quality standard of classes, and almost every class is way better than they ever been. Ra can more than stand on its own, Hu is more than just everyone's subclass, Fi just keeps excelling at its niche, Fo has gradually become more accessible and fluid than ever, and so on.

[Kondibon]

Honestly, I don't think they even grasped how bad the disparity between Hero and the other classes was until the negative feedback started overflowing and people started jumping ship.I think they did, and it was intentional. What they didn't seem to anticipate was everyone hating the idea of the game being centered around one class for an entire episode. They were upping the ante but leaving existing classes (and by extension playstyles) behind for it. Had they released Hr with 2 or 3 other "advanced" classes with a wider variety of playstyles the backlash probably wouldn't have been as bad (it definitely would still be there though).


In the end, Hr upped the quality standard of classes, and almost every class is way better than they ever been. Ra can more than stand on its own, Hu is more than just everyone's subclass, Fi just keeps excelling at its niche, Fo has gradually become more accessible and fluid than ever, and so on.

This is basically the kind of stuff I mean when I say Hr prompting them to buff the other classes is a good thing.

[XrosBlader821]

I agree. I'd definitely had nothing against the early EP5 situation and idea of dropping regular classes for advanced ones if Sega released 3 advanced classes using a variety of weapons and new playstyles. But by the looks of it we might consider ourselves lucky if we even get a 3rd advanced class before sega stops supporting the game.

[Kondibon]

I agree. I'd definitely had nothing against the early EP5 situation and idea of dropping regular classes for advanced ones if Sega released 3 advanced classes using a variety of weapons and new playstyles. But by the looks of it we might consider ourselves lucky if we even get a 3rd advanced class before sega stops supporting the game.Well they originally said they're planning on releasing a new class per episode, so we were probably never going to get another one during episode 5 anyway. I don't think they completely scrapped the ideas, they're just going to avoid trying to make them outclass everything else.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff they added to classes, Fo in particular, came from ideas for future adv classes though.

[XrosBlader821]

Well they originally said they're planning on releasing a new class per episode, so we were probably never going to get another one during episode 5 anyway. I don't think they completely scrapped the ideas, they're just going to avoid trying to make them outclass everything else.

EDIT: I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff they added to classes, Fo in particular, came from ideas for future adv classes though.

Yeah but advanced classes were supposed to be something we move towards and abandon regular classes. Sega hates fixing things and 5 years of them trying fix issues through band aids and stacking stuff on top of each other rather than proper overhauls is proof enough of this. If they wanted the player base to be ok with switching to Advanced classes then Hero by itself wasn't enough. They had to drop one of their rules and obviously they chose to start fixing regular classes instead of rushing new advanced classes.

[Zephyrion]

Yeah but advanced classes were supposed to be something we move towards and abandon regular classes. Sega hates fixing things and 5 years of them trying fix issues through band aids and stacking stuff on top of each other rather than proper overhauls is proof enough of this. If they wanted the player base to be ok with switching to Advanced classes then Hero by itself wasn't enough. They had to drop one of their rules and obviously they chose to start fixing regular classes instead of rushing new advanced classes.

I'm not absolutely sure about that, I think I remember them saying in one interview that they intended Hero to be the best...similar or slightly above Fighter. Which means a soft shift towards advanced, not the hard "be Hero or die" approach. They didn't plan to nerf it only because they didn't even realize what they actually did in the first place, then got hit by the backlash and started to realize they miiight have overtuned the class, which wouldn't even surprise me tbh. Even at start of EP5, damage numbers weren't completely crushing other classes' number, but they failed to realize how everything not damage was actually important, which is why the very first bandaid was a damage-related one, allowing old classes to pull out bigger number to somehow compensate their shortcomings in...every other aspect.

[FantasyHeaven]

Unfortunately already getting bored of the tank portion because it's pretty much impossible to fail if there's 1 person in the party that knows the dangerous parts when the enemies spawn behind/to the sides. A bit of randomness would have gone a long way.

[Kondibon]

Unfortunately already getting bored of the tank portion because it's pretty much impossible to fail if there's 1 person in the party that knows the dangerous parts when the enemies spawn behind/to the sides. A bit of randomness would have gone a long way.It gets particularly easy if the person who's on point is a Fo or Te. Zondeel and Rezandia just make the mobs a joke.

[Reilet]

Don’t know if it was or wasn’t obvious, but loser DB part of the quest DOES take your loser skill tree into account. It’s very easy to see if you use the parser, and you can even test it by going in as a clean slate skill tree then a leveled up one.

Now I know 99.99% of people won’t care, but it would be pretty important for anyone trying to underman/solo it and dps whores.

[ArcaneTechs]

Don’t know if it was or wasn’t obvious, but loser DB part of the quest DOES take your loser skill tree into account. It’s very easy to see if you use the parser, and you can even test it by going in as a clean slate skill tree then a leveled up one.

Now I know 99.99% of people won’t care, but it would be pretty important for anyone trying to underman/solo it and dps whores.

tell me why that I have 0 investment into Luther tree on one character and my friend has his luther tree maxed and we hit the same amount of the dmg with the same attacks???

[the_importer_]

Don’t know if it was or wasn’t obvious, but loser DB part of the quest DOES take your loser skill tree into account. It’s very easy to see if you use the parser, and you can even test it by going in as a clean slate skill tree then a leveled up one.

Now I know 99.99% of people won’t care, but it would be pretty important for anyone trying to underman/solo it and dps whores.

Don't know about damage, but I know it unlocks skills that you don't have. Case and point, I never unlocked the super duper attack for Loser DB (I still need to do that dodge attack 4 more times) and yet, I have that attack during the EQ.

[Reilet]

tell me why that I have 0 investment into Luther tree on one character and my friend has his luther tree maxed and we hit the same amount of the dmg with the same attacks???

Because your friend is a liar. You can test it yourself. Hell even my team member tested it. His lvl 0 diffusion does 96k and his lvl 4 dffussion did 120k.

Not to mention the fact that i can EASILY see other’s doing 449k convergents while i only do 327k. Or how my diffusion is only 67k.

@importer
Yeah they gave all the skills at a “lvl 0” but unlocked value, because i also don't have diffusion unlocked but have it.

[pkemr4]

another quest Gu/Fi just shits all over

[Kondibon]

another quest Gu/Fi just shits all overThat's really a problem with Gu/Fi not the quest... I don't think anything fair they could do to it would solve that problem.

[ews1114]

Music spot on as always on defense part like old mining base bgm, but the spawns aren't random and is slow paced. Was hoping for a more menacing theme for apprentice but it's not like she's a threat when you have 45 minutes to squish her with no drawback. A massive disappointment for me after the buildup since Mining Base Defense 1, I guess sega can't let us fight a huge boss without making it super easy

[ArcaneTechs]

Because your friend is a liar. You can test it yourself. Hell even my team member tested it. His lvl 0 diffusion does 96k and his lvl 4 dffussion did 120k.

Not to mention the fact that i can EASILY see other’s doing 449k convergents while i only do 327k. Or how my diffusion is only 67k.

@importer
Yeah they gave all the skills at a “lvl 0” but unlocked value, because i also don't have diffusion unlocked but have it.

my friend capped luther DB over a month ago sending me a pic of the title so uhh ya try harder. and dont forget even slight loss of health makes you lose dmg which is very noteliceable because im hitting your level of dmg with no investments into Luther DB tree

[XrosBlader821]

Because your friend is a liar. You can test it yourself. Hell even my team member tested it. His lvl 0 diffusion does 96k and his lvl 4 dffussion did 120k.

Not to mention the fact that i can EASILY see other’s doing 449k convergents while i only do 327k. Or how my diffusion is only 67k.

@importer
Yeah they gave all the skills at a “lvl 0” but unlocked value, because i also don't have diffusion unlocked but have it.

I wonder, do your converget rays deal this little damage all the time or when Perfect Keeper isn't applied? because thats how much damage my attacks deal (I'd say im halfway done leveling my Tree) when im low HP.

[Reilet]

I wonder, do your converget rays deal this little damage all the time or when Perfect Keeper isn't applied? because thats how much damage my attacks deal (I'd say im halfway done leveling my Tree) when im low HP.

That’s how much it does when i’m full hp. It does less than 300 when i don’t have PK.

@kril then explain why no one has the same maximum damage when you use parse during loser phase. Because according to you, we should be hitting ALL the same numbers for EVERYTHING when you clearly don’t.

[GHNeko]

That’s how much it does when i’m full hp. It does less than 300 when i don’t have PK.

@kril then explain why no one has the same maximum damage when you use parse during loser phase. Because according to you, we should be hitting ALL the same numbers for EVERYTHING when you clearly don’t.

if im not misunderstanding your intent based on wording;

damage variance is a thing. crit skills/ssa/pot doesnt apply to dark blast iirc

[ArcaneTechs]

That’s how much it does when i’m full hp. It does less than 300 when i don’t have PK.

@kril then explain why no one has the same maximum damage when you use parse during loser phase. Because according to you, we should be hitting ALL the same numbers for EVERYTHING when you clearly don’t.
what is damage variance, what is everyone not proc'ing PK, what is carrying Luther GS that boosts Luther DB dmg for 200 plz


crit skills/ssa/pot doesnt apply to dark blast iirc
i dont think thats how it works with the exception of certain weapons with pots for Boosting DB dmg/time

[Reilet]

Damage variance only exists on weapon attack. Saying damage variance exists on dark blast would assume it actually takes your actualy stats into account and that force and techer has the strongest loser form which isn’t the case. Even if it did have variance, the loser’s dex is clearly high enough to reach cap variance. Which is 10%. 10% of 422k is 383k. You definitely do not see your damage hitting for very low either. Variance also applies to your attack stat not the end damage as well

Only Perfect keeper does not explain why someone can hit 422k convergent while another person hits for 278k. Even adding clawdem’s 15% doesn’t equal to that.
278k * 15% * 15% = 367k ??? With a supposed “min” hit -> 404k =/= 422k

Also saying that perkect keeper actually works in the fight also means it’s taking your skill tree into account. Because where does perfect keeper exist??? In the loser skill tree.

And also, you will always get a full hp convergent hit in no matter what. So that would automatically mean perfect keeper means nothing in the grand scheme of maximum damage you did. Even then, clawdem does not account for 278k -> 422k

[ArcaneTechs]

Only Perfect keeper does not explain why someone can hit 422k convergent while another person hits for 278k. Even adding clawdem’s 15% doesn’t equal to that.
278k * 15% * 15% = 367k ??? With a supposed “min” hit -> 404k =/= 422k

Also saying that perkect keeper actually works in the fight also means it’s taking your skill tree into account. Because where does perfect keeper exist??? In the loser skill tree.

And also, you will always get a full hp convergent hit in no matter what. So that would automatically mean perfect keeper means nothing in the grand scheme of maximum damage you did. Even then, clawdem does not account for 278k -> 422k
i literally didnt say actual class skills accounted to be apart of this and the only weapons that remotely effect DB's damage count are their respective series (Detonation, Clawdem & Allure). Considering Perfect Keeper dmg (yes on DB tree in case you need more specifying)
is very noticeable when you get hit.

[Reilet]

Even without going into anything else i said. Not having perfect keeper and a clawdem weapon does not make someone who normally does 278k do 422k instead. Because, once again, 278k * 15% * 15% = 367k

422k does not equal 367k. In fact, you’re still missing 15%!

Diffusion Ray (1,230,188 dmg)
| 11 hits - 106,640 min, 111,835 avg, 114,545 max

Diffusion Ray (729,522 dmg)
| 12 hits - 58,651 min, 60,794 avg, 62,806 max

Even doing 62,806 * 15% * 15% = 83,060 nowhere close to that 114,545. They are missing 37.91% damage.
Also note, 7% variance.

[Velmoria]

With level 7-ish skills at full HP, my full Convergent Rays hit middle core around 415k damage. Hitting other cores like wings and "shoulder core?" around 200k damage.