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the_importer_
Aug 24, 2018, 01:58 PM
First, I made these today:

[spoiler-box]https://s33.postimg.cc/yn42irdzj/pso20180824_125753_000.png
https://s33.postimg.cc/8esxte9bj/pso20180824_125800_001.png
https://s33.postimg.cc/cnxnvk4v3/pso20180824_125803_002.png [/spoiler-box]

and unless SEGA does something new with unit affixing or just makes well affixed unit drops more common, this will be the last time I ever affix any unit. Before affixing, my units were exactly the way you see them minus the fact that I added a 6th slot for Stamina IV mainly because I was tired of being a glass canon and I also replaced elegant technique for grace technique because why not? That alone cost me close to $200m. Now I’m sure that someone could have figured out a better strategy than what I went for (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_KW8HfmK28kYefX317YQD7bNc1hK50qqFqXBvgCbwTE/edit#gid=0), but still, I doubt that it would have cost less than $150m, let alone half of what I paid.

I understand that searching and affixing should be a bit hard to come by during the first few years of a game like this, but it’s been over 6 years now! Why didn’t we get something like NT Units where you can affix a bunch of ability factors? To get 6 slot units with Alter Magia, why are my choices: Have the best luck in the world and them get during XQ or pay +6m a pop in the player shops?

I’m not saying that SEGA need to spoon feed us weapons and units like they did with the Atra line-up, but give us something that can at lease guarantee us decent unit fodders in exchange for something. Even if it would be a lot of work, I wouldn’t mind having to gather a bunch of stones to trade for decent 5 or 6 slot fodders.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on the subject, feels good letting it out.

EDIT: 12★ units, why are can't we replace rings? Why can we only equip Left rings? Why no set effects (decent ones anyway)?

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 02:02 PM
why did you make aus units instead of using 12*s

the_importer_
Aug 24, 2018, 02:05 PM
why did you make aus units instead of using 12*s

Unless things have changed recently, Austere Rear + Arm gives out more stats because of the set bonus, something that 12★ units unfortunately lack. Thanks for reminding me, I forgot to talk about those to, I'll edit my post.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 02:07 PM
You may get /slightly/ more from the Aus Set Bonus but I'm pretty sure the higher defenses/resistances of 12* Units and the ability to use rings on them trumps the Set Bonus. I'm assuming these are for FO? If so, do you not use Short Mirage/Step Jump? Those are pretty good to have in socket.

the_importer_
Aug 24, 2018, 02:21 PM
You may get /slightly/ more from the Aus Set Bonus but I'm pretty sure the higher defenses/resistances of 12* Units and the ability to use rings on them trumps the Set Bonus. I'm assuming these are for FO? If so, do you not use Short Mirage/Step Jump? Those are pretty good to have in socket.

You'd think that logic would dictate that 12★ units would beat out 11★ units, but no. This is one of the things that baffled me when I return last fall, how weak these new 12★ units were.

At 235 S-Def, Austere units at beats the majority of 12★ units. A few 12★ of them barely beats them and only Izane and Phobos have a significant difference, but at the cost of way shittier boosts. As for rings, I would like to use a 3rd one (not Short Mirage however), but not at the cost of losing all of these bonuses.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 02:38 PM
I knew you'd say that!

Thing is, 12* Units have similar Defense bases to Aus Units but they cap higher. Buster Rear has 327 in all Defenses at +10 but Aus is 329/301/315. Whenever you left, Aus Set Bonus and stats were fine but at this point, you're REALLY on the edge of that. There are tons of useful L. Rings for most classes and one of the issues players are running into is that we don't have enough ring slots, which is why SEGA is moving some of the skills (Step Jump, Just Reversal) into the Skill Tree eventually. Buster, Izane, Bode, Shine, and Phobos are all current Unit sets that overshadow Aus Set Bonus too.

For Comparison:

Aus Set Bonus
===========
S.Def 658
R.Def 602
T. Def 630

HP+190
PP+30
ATK+60
DEX+50

S. Resist 6%
R. Resist 7%
T. Resist 7%

Buster Rear/Buster Arm
==================
S.Def 654
R.Def 654
T.Def 654

HP+120
PP+20
ATK+50

S. Resist 6%
R. Resist 6%
T. Resist 6%

So even Buster units (which are getting an upgrade soon) are within spitting distance AND they can equip Rings. Honestly, if it's for a class you actually play, I don't see a reason to not use 12* Units.

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 03:00 PM
playing fo without short mirage + tech parry + step jump + air reversal sounds pretty bad.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 03:16 PM
I also actually just realized you were using Whitill Leg which has extremely low defenses and resists so even with that extra HP you slapped on there, you may still have the same issue of being a glass canon. What do your stats look like anyway?

Also, to the other point, yes, Unit affixing is cumbersome and they only made it easier once when they allowed up to 5 fodders for it. The process is still confusing to a lot of new players and they really don't do a good job of explaining it to players in-game or with the tutorial videos they made (which are not referenced in-game). That much being said, there are tons of cost-effective ways to make strong 5-6s affixes these days and you have a community of people who you can ask for recipes or recommendations so that should make it a bit easier.

It doesn't change that it's cumbersome and confusing but I honestly don't really see them changing Unit affixing till we get within the last 3 years of the game's announced support lifespan. At least affixing weapons is easy as shit and you don't have to really worry about that any more.

Aexorcet
Aug 24, 2018, 03:37 PM
playing fo without short mirage + tech parry + step jump + air reversal sounds pretty bad.

I'm honestly still getting by with Aus/Union. Just Tech Parry and Short Mirage. Granted I don't play as much anymore and refuse to hunt or units, but the new stuff that I've run didn't really have me wanting more from rings. Isn't step jump supposed to be available without the ring at some point, or was that changed, or never true at all?

ArcaneTechs
Aug 24, 2018, 03:45 PM
first it was EPD vs Atra, now its invest into units thatll be out dated soon. where will it end with the_importer?!

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 03:53 PM
I'm honestly still getting by with Aus/Union. Just Tech Parry and Short Mirage. Granted I don't play as much anymore and refuse to hunt or units, but the new stuff that I've run didn't really have me wanting more from rings. Isn't step jump supposed to be available without the ring at some point, or was that changed, or never true at all?

why "get by" when huge QoL is readily available? step jump with orbit gs/val gs with orbit SSA is enormous QoL. i can't even tell you anymore how many times air reversal has saved my life from mistakes possibly killing me. then again if you only pug EQs and do nothing else, neither of these things really matter i guess. for people that actually play the game, they are big though. frankly there is literally no reason to not use 4 rings on any class besides maybe hero at this point with how long we've had good 12* units.

step jump will be added as some sort of skill tree/charm, but not til october supposedly.

the_importer_
Aug 24, 2018, 03:53 PM
@Jene-chan

Sorry, I'm sure you're explaining it properly, but I lack sleep this week. What do you mean by "12* Units have similar Defense bases to Aus Units but they cap higher"? Are you talking about grinding?

Next, when comparing Aus Set Bonus with Buster Rear/Buster Arm, are you referring to R.Def and T.Def? Everything else is either the same or better on Aus Set Bonus.

I use the Whitill Leg for the extra PP and for an extra left ring (the one that's equipped the regular way is Tech Charge Parrying).

As per your request, my current stats (when using my balanced trees):
[spoiler-box]https://s33.postimg.cc/b41iotqpr/pso20180824_164819_000.png[/spoiler-box]

Finally, while it's too late anyway, see any way that my affixing process could have been cheaper (taking in consideration that I will only do a final affix at 100%)?

Ezodagrom
Aug 24, 2018, 03:53 PM
playing fo without short mirage + tech parry + step jump + air reversal sounds pretty bad.
In a couple months 2 of those won't be needed anymore.
(Step jump and air reversal will become part of the skill trees, and won't cost SP as far as I know).

echofaith
Aug 24, 2018, 04:02 PM
I am not sure if the raw defense on the units give a noticeable difference tbh. I remember testing my austere set/ray leg VS HP crafted double set(level 3 craft;horrible defense) and izane rear, and damage taken wasnt that much higher. I think the 5% reduction from certain units is the best part for survival, but even then I feel the potential 150+ hp(or pp) from the extra stats may give better survival.

That being said, I do think rings should be prioritized depending on the class, and having more rings will give better performance than the extra stats will. Though I am sure that some classes dont need as many L rings, and with the coming sidestep jump as a freebie skill, that will free another ring slot for many (:

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 04:02 PM
In a couple months 2 of those won't be needed anymore.
(Step jump and air reversal will become part of the skill trees, and won't cost SP as far as I know).

ok? that's still 2 months of playing without readily available QoL rings

Ezodagrom
Aug 24, 2018, 04:06 PM
ok? that's still 2 months of playing without readily available QoL rings
Heh, not like anything interesting is coming out in these next 2 months anyway (though, I forgot when the new buster EQ is coming out).
He already has the austere units done, would be a waste of meseta to prepare 12*s units just for the sake of using 2 rings that are gonna become useless in just 2 months.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 04:21 PM
@Jene-chan

Sorry, I'm sure you're explaining it properly, but I lack sleep this week. What do you mean by "12* Units have similar Defense bases to Aus Units but they cap higher"? Are you talking about grinding?

Next, when comparing Aus Set Bonus with Buster Rear/Buster Arm, are you referring to R.Def and T.Def? Everything else is either the same or better on Aus Set Bonus.

I use the Whitill Leg for the extra PP and for an extra left ring (the one that's equipped the regular way is Tech Charge Parrying).

As per your request, my current stats (when using my balanced trees):
[spoiler-box]https://s33.postimg.cc/b41iotqpr/pso20180824_164819_000.png[/spoiler-box]

Finally, while it's too late anyway, see any way that my affixing process could have been cheaper (taking in consideration that I will only do a final affix at 100%)?

I used Buster as an example since it's good and easily available, but Izane/Bode and even Phobos are straight up better in a lot of circumstances and you can equip them with rings. I share mil's opinion and I haven't even been playing Fo that long -- Fo without Step Jump/TCP/Air Reversal/Short Mirage sucks really bad.

Also, re: defenses, as I've understood it, the actual resistance stats on your Units actually do make a big difference. The Whitill Leg having basically no resistances other than Tech is pretty bad for EP5 meta where you basically will take hits.

Here are my stats for comparison:

[spoiler-box]https://i.imgur.com/pUdok0N.png[/spoiler-box]

I use Izane/Hang/Buster for units and I have 11% Strike Resist/12% Ranged Resist/11% Tech Resist. With your combo, you basically rock 6%/6%/9% and I really don't feel the extra HP is gonna matter that much for you since I think you're still gonna get smashed for big damage.

Also, re: lesser PP, I have Orbit Talis for PP regen and it's not as great as Val GS with Orbit SSA but it's still very much playable and I almost feel outside of specific builds/contents for solo, you don't NEED 190+PP on Fo anymore, but again, I'm still relatively new to Fo so mil can speak to that better than I can.

EDIT:


Heh, not like anything interesting is coming out in these next 2 months anyway (though, I forgot when the new buster EQ is coming out).
He already has the austere units done, would be a waste of meseta to prepare 12*s units just for the sake of using 2 rings that are gonna become useless in just 2 months.

You're also assuming that actually making Aus units for a class he mains is a good idea at the moment, which it isn't. Even when those skills move to the skill tree, that opens up two ring slots for more stuff. It's fine to use old Aus units if you're just recycling stuff but if you're actually gearing to be relevant to the current game, 12* is the way to go.

Aexorcet
Aug 24, 2018, 04:28 PM
why "get by" when huge QoL is readily available? step jump with orbit gs/val gs with orbit SSA is enormous QoL. i can't even tell you anymore how many times air reversal has saved my life from mistakes possibly killing me. then again if you only pug EQs and do nothing else, neither of these things really matter i guess. for people that actually play the game, they are big though. frankly there is literally no reason to not use 4 rings on any class besides maybe hero at this point with how long we've had good 12* units.

step jump will be added as some sort of skill tree/charm, but not til october supposedly.

Orbit hasn't really been a problem, I just LA cancel as I've always done. Granted Step Jump is better, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it. Air Reversal is a really good last cushion of defense and I am missing out there, but until I start playing the game seriously again I won't go after a new set of 12 units and reaffix just for that safety net. My luck with drops hasn't been great either. I managed to miss Bodes, Nemesis, and 14*'s through pretty much all the boost events I participated it. I do have some Qliphad units but they're affixed for other classes.

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 04:29 PM
Heh, not like anything interesting is coming out in these next 2 months anyway (though, I forgot when the new buster EQ is coming out).
He already has the austere units done, would be a waste of meseta to prepare 12*s units just for the sake of using 2 rings that are gonna become useless in just 2 months.

i don't know why that's really relevant at all. it's assumed that you affix units because you enjoy playing the game.

in terms of useful L rings that can replace them on units when we eventually do get step jump/aire reversal:
party of toughness
atomizer lovers
mag excite
rod shoot mode
just reversal B
piece zondeel (peace?)
JR JA combo

Orbit hasn't really been a problem, I just LA cancel as I've always done. Granted Step Jump is better, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it. Air Reversal is a really good last cushion of defense and I am missing out there, but until I start playing the game seriously again I won't go after a new set of 12 units and reaffix just for that safety net. My luck with drops hasn't been great either. I managed to miss Bodes, Nemesis, and 14*'s through pretty much all the boost events I participated it. I do have some Qliphad units but they're affixed for other classes.

LA cancel forces you to go through the walking animation to start moving again. after i got step jump for fo, i could never go back; the movement after switching to orbit feels clunky and slow with LA cancel.

as for units, have you played forest much? it drops all the bode units and has had multiple boost weeks. people are always playing it in pug blocks.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 04:34 PM
imo even Qliph is kinda at the end of it's chainbecause of it's poor resists and since Bode Units exist since they're all around better.

Zephyrion
Aug 24, 2018, 05:04 PM
why "get by" when huge QoL is readily available? step jump with orbit gs/val gs with orbit SSA is enormous QoL. i can't even tell you anymore how many times air reversal has saved my life from mistakes possibly killing me. then again if you only pug EQs and do nothing else, neither of these things really matter i guess. for people that actually play the game, they are big though. frankly there is literally no reason to not use 4 rings on any class besides maybe hero at this point with how long we've had good 12* units.

step jump will be added as some sort of skill tree/charm, but not til october supposedly.

To be honest, the real issue is and will always be money. Replacing a set of units and putting worthwhile affixes on it is very, very straining on the meseta. While it's fairly doable over the course of a year for one character the moment you get more, it becomes a real problem. My two oldest characters have been rocking Austere for almost 3 years now, and not because I think Austere is that good or that the extra utility isn't welcome, just that spending at least 80-100M and god knows how many cubes to replace them and gain marginal extra stats and some QoL is just that discouraging.

All my newer characters do have full *12 sets when all is said and done though, because yeah if you make/remake your units from scratch why not make the transition

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 05:38 PM
To be honest, the real issue is and will always be money. Replacing a set of units and putting worthwhile affixes on it is very, very straining on the meseta. While it's fairly doable over the course of a year for one character the moment you get more, it becomes a real problem. My two oldest characters have been rocking Austere for almost 3 years now, and not because I think Austere is that good or that the extra utility isn't welcome, just that spending at least 80-100M and god knows how many cubes to replace them and gain marginal extra stats and some QoL is just that discouraging.

All my newer characters do have full *12 sets when all is said and done though, because yeah if you make/remake your units from scratch why not make the transition

i think you're missing the underlying point here. the criticism is towards dismissing 12* units because the OP just reaffixed austere units in summer 2018 when 12* units have been a suitable, if not better, alternative for a long time now.

as for other chars:
1) create /myset15 on all chars to be empty (nothing equipped)
2) storage gear
3) /myset on other char
4) ???
5) wow now you can use your main units on all chars now

Zephyrion
Aug 24, 2018, 05:51 PM
i think you're missing the underlying point here. the criticism is towards dismissing 12* units because the OP just reaffixed austere units in summer 2018 when 12* units have been a suitable, if not better, alternative for a long time now.

as for other chars:
1) create /myset15 on all chars to be empty (nothing equipped)
2) storage gear
3) /myset on other char
4) ???
5) wow now you can use your main units on all chars now

My bad, nothing to say here.
Also I gotta add that each of my charas cover specific classes and/or ATK type, so while some of the pieces can be exchanged (step jump, step JA, air reversal) You just have to create additional pieces for specific classes(high time keep, front s-roll, B-Bow homing, HU gear save and so on), which has been my big beef with *12 units and the gearing it entails. The October update will at least greatly alleviate the issue of needing sets per 1 or 2 classes, and It should be enough to let me get away with 3 to 5 units per attack type

the_importer_
Aug 24, 2018, 05:56 PM
@Jene-chan

Putting ring preferences aside, what you're telling me is that having high defense numbers is not as important as high resistance numbers? If so, then do you know of any chart that would show me the value of a resistance point Vs defense points?

You've mentioned "EP5" and "current game" in your reply, what do you mean by that? I don't find demons any more dangerous than darkers or phantoms, perhaps just more HP and defense.

As for weapon affixing and PP, I do solo more than I party with others. If it's not an EQ, then I'm alone or with NPCs. I affixed my Atra Rod for the third time 2 days ago, I pretty much went with a power affix:

[spoiler-box]https://s8.postimg.cc/qlilksmz9/Atra_Rod.png[/spoiler-box]

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 06:01 PM
My bad, nothing to say here.
Also I gotta add that each of my charas cover specific classes and/or ATK type, so while some of the pieces can be exchanged (step jump, step JA, air reversal) You just have to create additional pieces for specific classes(high time keep, front s-roll, B-Bow homing, HU gear save and so on), which has been my big beef with *12 units and the gearing it entails. The October update will at least greatly alleviate the issue of needing sets per 1 or 2 classes, and It should be enough to let me get away with 3 to 5 units per attack type

different attack types is more understandable, especially for classes like hu, gu, and fi which need numerous rings where frankly 4 slots still isn't enough until they add them to skill tree or combine (like they said possibly for fi and gu rings). even so, i personally would still take a cheapo 4 or 5s 12* unit over austere on any class solely due to rings.

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 06:10 PM
@Jene-chan

Putting ring preferences aside, what you're telling me is that having high defense numbers is not as important as high resistance numbers? If so, then do you know of any chart that would show me the value of a resistance point Vs defense points?

You've mentioned "EP5" and "current game" in your reply, what do you mean by that? I don't find demons any more dangerous than darkers or phantoms, perhaps just more HP and defense.

As for weapon affixing and PP, I do solo more than I party with others. If it's not an EQ, then I'm alone or with NPCs. I affixed my Atra Rod for the third time 2 days ago, I pretty much went with a power affix:

[spoiler-box]https://s8.postimg.cc/qlilksmz9/Atra_Rod.png[/spoiler-box]

http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%83%80%E3%83%A1%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E8% A8%88%E7%AE%97#y614673a

Taken Damage = (Enemy Attack - Player Defense) ÷ 5 × 1.05 × Attack Mods × Modification Skills × Modification Potentials × Resists

Generally, it should be HP = Resistances >> Defenses.

Also, saying you don't see a change in enemy behavior design from EP5 onwards I feel is pretty objectively off. Enemies introduced in EP5 are generally more aggressive and have more attacks that hit a wider radius. If you're not dealing with them directly OR you don't have aggro on them, you may not notice a difference but I don't think people will really argue that things are enemies are being designed more aggressively than they've been previously.

zangechan
Aug 24, 2018, 06:32 PM
one thing i want to talk about which has been overlooked this whole thread is the idea of set bonuses for units.

12* units have innate attack/hp/pp modifiers that basically replace the idea of set bonuses. do you really want to live in a world where if you wanted to use an izane unit, you'd have to use the whole set and have no pp like the old noirega days? with innate unit modifiers it gives you the freedom of creating a custom tailored set for your needs, and honestly makes lower slot value affixed units better in the long run. and people complain about rng, do you guys really want to live in x area to get the full set of units, does no one remember hunting thousands of rare gunnes to get saikis?

and honestly 95% of the player base of the game can probably easily get by with a cheaply affixed ares/stat3/stam3/omega rev/arksfever and if i can do that on an alternate ship with one character i barely played in a month theres really no excuse.having good gear =/= being good at the game.

oh and if anyone wonders why crafting 12* units isn't a thing do you really want to run around in ep5 with only one stat resistance again

Saffran
Aug 24, 2018, 06:38 PM
I don't see the appeal of air reversal, but rings in general are indeed good to have. They do change the gameply though so it can be confusing. I have a hell of a time adapting to Charge Tech parry for example.

As far as resistances go, I have +42% resist units and they are not helping anymore. I feel like there's a part of the formula we're missing, because I take less damage with Atk oriented Izane units.
Qliphad units drop at every gods of creation EQ, they're never properly affixed but all it takes is one good fodder and you can go with Ares/Deus/Pow/Spirita/Item or better in a matter of 2 steps.
Bode units are sturdy (high numbers and high resists) and if you're a masochist they come with soul catalyst.
If you have a bit of meseta, try the shops for Lesser V fodders. You can make EV Power HP, EV Shoot HP and EV Tech HP coexist on the same unit.

Sort of (un)related but I've seen this unit on twitter so...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DlXRvcyVAAMzZs-.jpg

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 06:46 PM
I don't see the appeal of air reversal

here's a couple examples where air reversal can mean the difference between life and death.

1) df elder meteors. say you accidentally don't step/block the 3rd or 4th one and you get hit causing freeze. the freeze will wear off just before his next attack executes as he comes back to the platform, but the meteor causes knock up to occur after freeze wears off. without air reversal, the next attack will juggle you in the air and probably kill you.

2) nab/lili UQ - bayaris, siorgs, leopard/leone all have attacks that knock you up and often come together. particularly with the added mobs around, one mistaken step/block from a miniboss can send you juggling for a number of hits getting you chunked or killed instantly. air reversal saves you after the first attack and grants you iframes after the reversal until your character finishes the animation.

in an ideal world with the perfect player, yes air reversal is useless. but even ponthi uses it, arguably one of the best players in the game. what does that tell you?

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 06:48 PM
The formula isn’t wrong. And the reason why your 42% or something resist units aren’t helping as much as you’d expect is because there are 9, yes NINE, types of attacks you need to have resistance to.

This is why hp is the superior defensive stat.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 07:00 PM
There are 3 main type of attacks, Strike, Shoot & Tech. Strike attack is the most common damage we received.
For 6 Attribute damage, so far I can understand, it goes along with 3 main attacks with example Dragon's breath where it's both Tech & Fire damage.

As HP get higher, the value of each increase HP become lower while value of each Resist gets higher.

Ezodagrom
Aug 24, 2018, 07:21 PM
i don't know why that's really relevant at all. it's assumed that you affix units because you enjoy playing the game.

in terms of useful L rings that can replace them on units when we eventually do get step jump/aire reversal:
party of toughness
atomizer lovers
mag excite
rod shoot mode
just reversal B
piece zondeel (peace?)
JR JA combo
I enjoy the gameplay I guess, and also the whole mix of sci-fi, fantasy and anime aesthetic, but, I hate the grinding/RNG that is attached to almost everything in the game.

Anyway, step jump, step ja combo, air reversal and air reversal ja combo, these 4 will become skills in the skill tree in just 2 months. Depending on the class, if someone already has something like 2 austere and one 12* unit (or in the case of the OP, just made a set of 2 austere + 12*), it's just not worth the effort to switch to all 12* for a class where 2 rings slots will be enough in just a couple months (it's not that long of a wait).

Of course someone that either is a new-ish player that is making their first set of units or a player with outdated units looking into upgrading may as well go all 12*... if the rng gods are kind to them that is... (while they're expensive, I guess at least with austere we can just rely on the player shops, meanwhile with 12* units, if someone wants something like bode, gotta farm the mindless enchanted forest, ugh)...

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 07:30 PM
There are 3 main type of attacks, Strike, Shoot & Tech. Strike attack is the most common damage we received.
For 6 Attribute damage, so far I can understand, it goes along with 3 main attacks with example Dragon's breath where it's both Tech & Fire damage.

As HP get higher, the value of each increase HP become lower while value of each Resist gets higher.

Being dual type only applies to us because of our weapons having element. It isn’t like that for monsters. A good example is those mage lizards in volcano and skyscape. Volcano ones are r-def and ranged. The skyscape ones are r-def and light.

In fact, techs are single type. They are only of their respective element and not affected by “tech” resistance.

HP’s value never increases nor decreases. 1 more hp is still 1 hp regardless of what you get hit by. On the other hand, resistance gets better when you have more, but only very slightly so. Resistance also have the issue of deminishing returns when you stack multiple different resistance from multiple sources.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 07:41 PM
Being dual type only applies to us because of our weapons having element. It isn’t like that for monsters. A good example is those mage lizards in volcano and skyscape. Volcano ones are r-def and ranged. The skyscape ones are r-def and light.

In fact, techs are single type. They are only of their respective element and not affected by “tech” resistance.

HP’s value never increases nor decreases. 1 more hp is still 1 hp regardless of what you get hit by. On the other hand, resistance gets better when you have more, but only very slightly so. Resistance also have the issue of deminishing returns when you stack multiple different resistance from multiple sources.

Resist within unit stacks by additive just how attribute resist does (unless can prove this wrong since SEGA doesn't let us see our total SRT-resist).
Total Resist have diminishing returns is when the other sources is like Flash Guards, SSA or Ring.

What I mean "the value of each increase HP become lower" is for the case for example having 1500 HP added with more 50 HP or 3% All-Resist.

Edit: But yea, I guess I should say "value of HP remain stay while value of Resist increased as total HP increased".
But if enemy "tech" damage only count toward it's Attribute, it doesn't explain how dragon rematch's fire ball hit me with 700 damage(16% Fire Resist) while my other party member can get hit over 1100 damage.

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 07:58 PM
It can be either on units. Here’s why, 4% + 4% + 4% = 12% on the screen.

4% * 4% * 4% = 12.48% which almost everything is rounded down so it shows as 12%

So for all intents and purposes, we don’t know unless it’s tested / the info on it is already out.


For dragon attack, it’s pure fire type... not “tech” fire. Like how foie is fire type and not “tech” fire.

milranduil
Aug 24, 2018, 08:01 PM
It can be either on units. Here’s why, 4% + 4% + 4% = 12% on the screen.

4% * 4% * 4% = 12.48% which almost everything is rounded down so it shows as 12%

So for all intents and purposes, we don’t know unless it’s tested / the info on it is already out.

that's not how multipliers work lol it's
1 - (1 - 0.04)*(1 - 0.04)*(1 - 0.04) = 11.53%, in other words diminishing returns.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 08:03 PM
Still can't prove why SRT-Resist in unit got "diminishing returns" while Attribute Resist doesn't.

Edit:
Gonna say it again.
Dragon Rematch's Fire Ball hit me 700 damage, I recorded the video of it.
It's the fire ball that being shot at early phase right after jump from mob phase.

It's yellow damage.
I have 1600-ish Tech Defense, 42% T-Resist & 16% Fire Resist
Rear : 3%
Arm : 7%
Leg : 7%
Flash Tech lv10 = 30%

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 08:22 PM
that's not how multipliers work lol it's
1 - (1 - 0.04)*(1 - 0.04)*(1 - 0.04) = 11.53%, in other words diminishing returns.

That was only to show what it can be on the UI. We all know it’s actually .96 and not 1.04. But sega decided to show it as 4% instead of reduced to 96%.

1 - 0.4 * 3 = 0.88
.96^3 = 0.8847

It shows the same thing.


And to velmoria, i’ve never once said anything about attributes not getting diminishing reutrns. When even swiki has it and all the data on their google sheets points to what i’ve say about only one type of resist, it’s hard to say it can be dual.

Also, if you get hit for 700 while your friends get hit for 1100. You clearly aren’t reducing it by 42% + your units and your flash tech. It dhould be almost reduced to 38% of the original value, yet 700/1100 is only 63%

ArcaneTechs
Aug 24, 2018, 08:28 PM
im surprised no ones mentioned about waiting for Evleda unit upgrade coming soon tsk tsk (lol phobos units, into the tresh)

Jene-chan
Aug 24, 2018, 08:29 PM
im surprised no ones mentioned about waiting for Evleda unit upgrade coming soon tsk tsk (lol phobos units, into the tresh)

ackshually

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?238094-Let%92s-Talk-Units&p=3452324&viewfull=1#post3452324

ArcaneTechs
Aug 24, 2018, 08:34 PM
ackshually

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?238094-Let%92s-Talk-Units&p=3452324&viewfull=1#post3452324
i skipped several post cuz tldr and mental capacity that i cant handle knowing someone fully affixed 11* units this late into 2018 thinking they're good instead of waiting or something

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 08:50 PM
Also, if you get hit for 700 while your friends get hit for 1100. You clearly aren’t reducing it by 42% + your units and your flash tech. It dhould be almost reduced to 38% of the original value, yet 700/1100 is only 63%

You forgot to include that every player now has their own defense & resist from 12* units right?
I don't know much about other players defense since never try to observe it, but that's the damage that I have seen when I see others get hit.
Would helpful if there are other players provide the data just like how I'm doing now.

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 09:04 PM
You do know that someone else having 500 more defense than you would only reduce that 1100 hit to 1000. And that what you said still doesn’t refute anything i said at all. You aren’t taking ~35% of 1100 and you definitely aren’t taking 29% of 1100.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 09:06 PM
comparing between final damage into my actual resist is a wrong way to calculate it

Sirius-91
Aug 24, 2018, 09:34 PM
first it was EPD vs Atra, now its invest into units thatll be out dated soon. where will it end with the_importer?!

You're asking the impossible.

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 09:49 PM
comparing between final damage into my actual resist is a wrong way to calculate it


Lets looks at it this way then.

Say you did take 29% of the dragon’s actual fire attack and it was 700. That means the attack actually did 2414 damage. For someone to take 1100 from this, they have to have 55% effective damage reduction.

Are you trying to say EVERYONE has at least that much damage reduction? I can tell you right now that i have less than 20% damage reduction and i don’t even take 1100 that often from dragon.

We even have two people who showed their defense, and it was 1700 and 1800 respectively. Even i have around that much.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 09:56 PM
Lets looks at it this way then.

Say you did take 29% of the dragon’s actual fire attack and it was 700. That means the attack actually did 2414 damage. For someone to take 1100 from this, they have to have 55% effective damage reduction.

Are you trying to say EVERYONE has at least that much damage reduction? I can tell you right now that i have less than 20% damage reduction and i don’t even take 1100 that often from dragon.

We even have two people who showed their defense, and it was 1700 and 1800 respectively. Even i have around that much.

For starter I said 700 damage to me after getting resist.
That 1100 I mentioned should also the damage received after get past it's resist

comparing 700 & 1100 as my actual resist is the same as saying that 1100 have 0% resist.

Edit: Also I specify which attack I received.
Other attacks like fire sweep(500~600), tail sweep(300), flying rubble (80~150) doesn't do much on me. I could gather all of those data if I had to. Just that specific fire ball that I have exact damage number as sample.

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 10:17 PM
You aren't helping your case at all.

You say 700 is after resist? Well the damage formula is this: Taken Damage = (Enemy Attack - Player Defense) ÷ 5 × 1.05 × Attack Mods × Modification Skills × Modification Potentials × Resists

Look where resists is at. It's at the VERY END. It means if you had ZERO resist, that 700 damage you took would be 700 / .29 which is 2414 damage.

And even if 1100 was with ZERO resist. You supposedly have 71% effective reduction which means you should've taken 319 damage!


fire sweep. 500~600? A person without resist would take 1724 ~ 2069 damage from it!!
ME, a person with ONLY roughly 13% resist should be taking easily 1500 ~ 1800 damage from it, yet I have never seen dragon hit me for more than 1200 ever.

And no. Just because I have around 200 more defense from you doesn't make it any significantly smaller. Instead of me taking 1500 ~ 1800. I'd instead be taking 1340 ~ 1720.

A real example? Flying rubble only hits me for like 200!

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 10:32 PM
You aren't helping your case at all.

You say 700 is after resist? Well the damage formula is this: Taken Damage = (Enemy Attack - Player Defense) ÷ 5 × 1.05 × Attack Mods × Modification Skills × Modification Potentials × Resists

Look where resists is at. It's at the VERY END. It means if you had ZERO resist, that 700 damage you took would be 700 / .29 which is 2414 damage.

And even if 1100 was with ZERO resist. You supposedly have 71% effective reduction which means you should've taken 319 damage!


fire sweep. 500~600? A person without resist would take 1724 ~ 2069 damage from it!!
ME, a person with ONLY roughly 13% resist should be taking easily 1500 ~ 1800 damage from it, yet I have never seen dragon hit me for more than 1200 ever.

And no. Just because I have around 200 more defense from you doesn't make it any significantly smaller. Instead of me taking 1500 ~ 1800. I'd instead be taking 1340 ~ 1720.

A real example? Flying rubble only hits me for like 200!

Your math is way too wrong that I won't bother to look how you calculate it.
Take 29% damage? You not confused it with taking 71% damage right?
Because your 29% is the resist you calculated (not damage received).

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 10:40 PM
Your math is way too wrong that I won't bother to look how you calculate it.
Take 29% damage? You not confused it with taking 71% damage right?
Because your 29% is the resist you calculated (not damage received).

Dear lord you can't even math. 29% of 100 is the same at 71% less. AND you can't even read! Jesus fucking christ why am I even trying to show you how to do it right. Continue to be as deluded as you are. One less person to worry about.

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 10:42 PM
29% Resist = 71% damage received

Mine is 42% Resist = 58% damage received

That would be nice if I have 71% resist like you calculated. lol

Reilet
Aug 24, 2018, 10:58 PM
42% T-Resist & 16% Fire Resist
Rear : 3%
Arm : 7%
Leg : 7%
Flash Tech lv10 = 30%

As far as I'm concerned, You have 42% * 3% * 7% * 7% * 30% resist. and that equals 66%.

The original argument was you thinking things can be dual type, like strike and light, or tech and fire. The instant you did that, I went along with it to disprove it. Adding that extra 16% fire resist? 71% resist.

P.S 1100 * .58 = 638
P.P.S 1100 * .34 = 374

Velmoria
Aug 24, 2018, 11:08 PM
A take 700 damage with 42% resist (let's ignore fire resist)
that means 700 damage is 58% damage received and 42% resisted (506.89 damage reduce)

B take 1100 damage with ?% resist

So if A don't have resist, A would take 1206.89 damage
So B taken 1100 damage of 1206.89 damage, that means B have 8.85% resist.

Edit:
Ah I guess I didn't put more detailed explanation
that 42% is total
30% skill, [(4% & 3%), (4% & 3%),3% units]

100% * 0.7 * 0.83 = 58.1% damage received = 41.9% resist

2nd Edit:
If Fire resist were included, I would assume it stacks by multiplicative.
If 42% Tech Resist & 16% Fire resist that means I have 51.28% resist & 48.72% received

so if I don't have resist, that would be 1436.78 damage

and B would have 23.43% resist, which lead the question I have now.
Because I don't have data what B have like Defense.
So it's basically lack of data from other players/variables.

Reilet
Aug 25, 2018, 01:30 AM
Specify next time ffs.

So the attack is tech resist and not fire resist. Nor is it both because i don’t have any fire resist and i never take anything higher than 1100 except on his fly by sweeps

FantasyHeaven
Aug 25, 2018, 05:09 AM
I just have some crappy ones I picked up off the side of the road with T-Atk affixes that I use on my S-Atk weapons because T-Atk weapons are worthless trash
No reason to put any effort into it beyond 60 or so attack you get from atk3 and ep1 soul anyway

Kondibon
Aug 25, 2018, 05:24 AM
T-Atk weapons are worthless trash
https://i.imgur.com/nsEFCGI.jpg

Atmius
Aug 25, 2018, 06:05 AM
First, I made these today:
Should've affixed a board or izane set, or a combo there of. Flatly speaking, the stamina affixes are somewhat wasted simply by the defenses/resists of the units being a bit lackluster, in particular having the whitill unit be the third.


EDIT: 12★ units, why are can't we replace rings? Why can we only equip Left rings? Why no set effects (decent ones anyway)?
But you can? Because left rings aren't restricted by class/weapon skill tree duplicates. Because sega wanted people to be able to mix and match 12* units without having to rely on the bullshit such as getting a full saiki set to get the 25 pp bonus from the set effect.

XrosBlader821
Aug 25, 2018, 06:16 AM
All Im gonna say is that suddenly it makes sense why Importers solo PD run was so sluggish and he kept dying.

I got a 6:40~ solo PD run on Te/Hu using these units which are dirt cheap 10m investment (one week worth of Tacos) work on any class and have a great balance of HP, PP (11pp) and even some defensive stats to make the most out of my Deband.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370298529584906240/482647843639787520/unknown.png

Also while we're speaking about attack stats gained from Set effects the only ones that still somehow matter are imo Saiki (huge PP), Kaiser (130 SR-ATK) and Saiha (130 ST-ATK). 12* Units only get 120 All-ATK with Bode Set/Phobos Set unless you're using a PVP Rear in which case it's 160 All-ATK.

inisderz
Aug 25, 2018, 06:56 AM
atk affixes on unit dont matter THAT much nowaday, the difference between 100 affixed units with 200 bunch is only 300 atk difference which translates to mere 6-7% damage increase

XrosBlader821
Aug 25, 2018, 06:58 AM
atk affixes on unit dont matter THAT much nowaday, the difference between 100 affixed units with 200 bunch is only 300 atk difference which translates to mere 6-7% damage increase

and I completely agree. It's just not worth going fo these 200 Attack affixes nowadays

Zephyrion
Aug 25, 2018, 07:37 AM
and I completely agree. It's just not worth going fo these 200 Attack affixes nowadays

I only half agree, Units price go exponentially higher as you go for higher atk, so 100 units have an incredibly better cost-to-efficiency ratio. However, while a 300 ATK difference might not matter in most mpa content, any "challenge" you might want to tackle make those 300 gold. It can be the difference between meeting a gate requirement or not on stuff like solo Mother and translate into several minutes extra on your run. Not even mentioning Endless here because it's about milking every possible second you can with proper skill, strategy (RNGEEEE), and yes stats So I'd just correct that statement to "it doesn't matter for most things you do"

XrosBlader821
Aug 25, 2018, 07:50 AM
I only half agree, Units price go exponentially higher as you go for higher atk, so 100 units have an incredibly better cost-to-efficiency ratio. However, while a 300 ATK difference might not matter in most mpa content, any "challenge" you might want to tackle make those 300 gold. It can be the difference between meeting a gate requirement or not on stuff like solo Mother and translate into several minutes extra on your run. Not even mentioning Endless here because it's about milking every possible second you can with proper skill, strategy (RNGEEEE), and yes stats So I'd just correct that statement to "it doesn't matter for most things you do"

Which I don't disagree with. I just don't see myself nor a large portion of the player base interested in these challenges yet I see way to many people pushing the Idea that having high ATK from units is hyper important when a nice low budget 6s Unit gets you by just fine, especially on non-primary characters / Taco Slaves.

jooozek
Aug 25, 2018, 07:52 AM
i feel bad for those butchered graces
rest in peace my sweethearts

Jene-chan
Aug 25, 2018, 08:35 AM
Thing about attack is, there is a point of diminishing returns for it. It was explained to me that when you're in the 3000s range, every +30 is worth it, since you're increasing your attack by 1% of your maximum, but once you hit 4K, it becomes +40 and so on. You need to have a balance of pushing attack and survival stats (HP specifically). My FO units are 170 T-Atk/95 HP/9 PP and at my range of T-Atk, I'd have to invest a significant amount of money to actually get a measurable damage increase and I might have to sacrifice stats to do so and I don't really think that's worth it.

Again, in EP5, you need damage, survival and utility. You can run a glass cannon build if you want, but don't be surprised when you're constantly on the floor and people get tired of tossing Moons at you. Even the best players of the game that you see clearing solo Endless have stats/rings build for both offense, survival and utility so there is reason to not aim for the same.

As was said a few pages back, you don't even need to have insane units to hit this. Doing something like Ares/Stat3/Stam3/Omega Reverie/Arks Fever/Booster on a 12* unit is perfectly acceptable and will give you a good range of attack and HP/PP.

echofaith
Aug 25, 2018, 09:48 AM
I am curious about how element works. From what I understood in the damage formula, the 60% element portion is added to your total ATK(at least for non techniques). So if your stat screen show 3500 atk, and your weapon have 1500 raw atk before affixes(so 900 from element), your damage would be counted as if your total atk is 4400(3500 screen+ 900 element). Dont know about the actual element being weakness or not, but if thats how it works then it makes focusing on ATK only even less efficent :/

MyNameIsHawk
Aug 25, 2018, 11:33 AM
since we are discusing units and affix, where i can get information of how affix units, what affix require other affixes to pop up, etc.

like a tutorial for dummies since i been doing nothing but use what i got via drops from quest and add them to my units. I need a leg reemplacemet but no luck for a bode leg on forest.

Zephyrion
Aug 25, 2018, 11:49 AM
Which I don't disagree with. I just don't see myself nor a large portion of the player base interested in these challenges yet I see way to many people pushing the Idea that having high ATK from units is hyper important when a nice low budget 6s Unit gets you by just fine, especially on non-primary characters / Taco Slaves.

Which is something I completely get behind. I always tell people affixes are literally the very last thing you should consider if you feel you're not doing enough or have trouble with a challenge. proper strategy, skill tree,build, class understanding, and being sure you're survivable enough all come before caring about attack stats.


Thing about attack is, there is a point of diminishing returns for it. It was explained to me that when you're in the 3000s range, every +30 is worth it, since you're increasing your attack by 1% of your maximum, but once you hit 4K, it becomes +40 and so on. You need to have a balance of pushing attack and survival stats (HP specifically). My FO units are 170 T-Atk/95 HP/9 PP and at my range of T-Atk, I'd have to invest a significant amount of money to actually get a measurable damage increase and I might have to sacrifice stats to do so and I don't really think that's worth it.

Again, in EP5, you need damage, survival and utility. You can run a glass cannon build if you want, but don't be surprised when you're constantly on the floor and people get tired of tossing Moons at you. Even the best players of the game that you see clearing solo Endless have stats/rings build for both offense, survival and utility so there is reason to not aim for the same.

As was said a few pages back, you don't even need to have insane units to hit this. Doing something like Ares/Stat3/Stam3/Omega Reverie/Arks Fever/Booster on a 12* unit is perfectly acceptable and will give you a good range of attack and HP/PP.

Which I agree with and I'm mostly doing the same on most of my charas, I'm not saying everybody should walk with 200 ATK units, just that +300 ATK is not a insignificant increase in the least. And of course most people that do care will also reach that 200 by banking on affixes like EV/Alter/Flict/Ether and so on to give extra survivability and PP on top of said ATK. There is no question about how skewed the cost-efficiency ratio of unit affixing is, or how a balanced affix tramples an all-out ATK one in most scenarios.


I am curious about how element works. From what I understood in the damage formula, the 60% element portion is added to your total ATK(at least for non techniques). So if your stat screen show 3500 atk, and your weapon have 1500 raw atk before affixes(so 900 from element), your damage would be counted as if your total atk is 4400(3500 screen+ 900 element). Dont know about the actual element being weakness or not, but if thats how it works then it makes focusing on ATK only even less efficent :/

Element value only applies to raw ATK value of your weapon
If you get a 2000ATK sword without the affixes, then element adds damage equivalent to 60% of this value, so 1200 ATK worth of extra multiplier. if element attribute matches enemy's weakness, then you get an additional 20% worth on attack on element value (20% of 1200 = 240) which pushes your sword's effective ATK value to 3440

Youmu Konpaku
Aug 25, 2018, 12:10 PM
i think some people go all out in 200+ atk in units because they want to become number #1 in parser.

well, some people annoyed when they in the middle of parser.

Jene-chan
Aug 25, 2018, 12:38 PM
i think some people go all out in 200+ atk in units because they want to become number #1 in parser.

well, some people annoyed when they in the middle of parser.

Honestly, I see people with amazing gear all the time pull poor numbers and I feel they're forgetting ABC - Always Be Casting. Either that or they don't know how to play their class. Sometimes I see people with very low total action counts and I'm wondering what they're doing. lol

Tunga
Aug 25, 2018, 01:36 PM
I enjoy the gameplay I guess, and also the whole mix of sci-fi, fantasy and anime aesthetic, but, I hate the grinding/RNG that is attached to almost everything in the game.

I feel the same way, game is fun but the grinding is getting boring and annoying after years of playing now. The recent steep exp curve is also a drag.

Reilet
Aug 25, 2018, 01:54 PM
Probably the only real exception there is for prioritizing atk more than the others would be katana. Active gear’s 30% more atk takes affixes into account. Strangely the only buff to do so.

the_importer_
Aug 25, 2018, 02:02 PM
What the hell happened to my topic? Oh well, at lease there's been some heathly debating regarding the importance of HP, resitance and defense, quite informative.

@Jene-chan
Thanks for the math formula. I'll try to understand it at the start of September when I'm on vacation. As for EP5 enemies, like I said before, better defense and HP and I'll also add that they come in bigger numbers and have more tech weakness variation than other Free Fields, but other than that, trash mod is trash mob for me. I just pick the proper element and kill them.

@zangechan
What do you mean by: "12★ units have innate attack/hp/pp modifiers" ?

@XrosBlader821
Actually, ever since I manage to get my 200 gems title reward (and learned that it was about speed and not dying), I stopped caring about dying or not, therefor stopped being afraid of failing and managed to up my game. I don't really care in the long run since no one's gonna give me a prize for breaking records nor will the game give me more cubes, but it does save on the drop boosts, especially on those gem draining 125% triboosts. If I can find a way to speed up PD's first form with all those breakable parts, I could shave-off a minute or two.

This is from from August 7th, before re-affixing my gear:
https://s8.postimg.cc/cz1sxzw69/pso20180807_201536_000.png (https://postimg.cc/image/cz1sxzw69/)

XrosBlader821
Aug 25, 2018, 03:26 PM
@zangechan
What do you mean by: "12★ units have innate attack/hp/pp modifiers" ?
it means that the unit itself has good stats you don't need a set effect to obtain them. Austere Set effect (which requires 2 pieces) is only 60 atk, A single Bode Unit gives 40 Attack.


@XrosBlader821
Actually, ever since I manage to get my 200 gems title reward (and learned that it was about speed and not dying), I stopped caring about dying or not, therefor stopped being afraid of failing and managed to up my game. I don't really care in the long run since no one's gonna give me a prize for breaking records nor will the game give me more cubes, but it does save on the drop boosts, especially on those gem draining 125% triboosts. If I can find a way to speed up PD's first form with all those breakable parts, I could shave-off a minute or two.

This is from from August 7th, before re-affixing my gear:
https://s8.postimg.cc/cz1sxzw69/pso20180807_201536_000.png (https://postimg.cc/image/cz1sxzw69/)
I'm glad to hear you improved this fast. No one has to give you a price for breaking them. I think the joy of breaking your own PB is rewarding enough. Just today I broke my own record by almost a minute while farming cubes and broke my friends Ra/Hu PB by a second.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/370298529584906240/482929294348386344/unknown.png

Dark Mits
Aug 25, 2018, 05:18 PM
I feel the same way, game is fun but the grinding is getting boring and annoying after years of playing now. The recent steep exp curve is also a drag.I wouldn't say that the grinding is unreasonable. As a player lying somewhere between casual and hardcore, I am about to hit level 85 with all classes sometime in September (only Gunner left, but I have 14 keys in storage, to be done on upcoming ARKS Day next weekend). We have to consider that the game is not designed to have everything maxxed on multiple characters, but 2 or 3 classes (the favourite ones of a player) before the next level cap arrives.

Maninbluejumpsuit
Aug 25, 2018, 05:39 PM
it means that the unit itself has good stats you don't need a set effect to obtain them. Austere Set effect (which requires 2 pieces) is only 60 atk, A single Bode Unit gives 40 Attack.


Austere, and other older units with set bonuses have innate stats as well (HP/PP. No Atk on any of them iirc). Just not so powerful on an individual basis.
As I'm sure people here already know, Austere 2 set bonus + the individual unit stats are very strong, effectively making each unit worth 95 HP, 15 PP, and 30 ATK if you divide the set bonus by 2, and added the result to each of the two units' preexisting innate stats.

TehCubey
Aug 26, 2018, 05:12 AM
OP, I'm just here to approve of your decision.

With exception of extreme RNG Weila series, Austere rear + arm is superior to 12* in terms of pure stats*. 12*s offer more utility thanks to ring slots, but it's your choice whether you want more utility or better stats.

Just because most people pick the former doesn't mean the latter is wrong. Especially since the most often used utility rings will be turned into skills anyway.

Personally I am still waiting for 12*s that give you ~100 hp and ~15 pp per unit (without affixes), but nothing comes even close to that.

* One exception being if you want to go full defense, because austere will never be as good defensively as izane with defensive affixes. I think that's excessive though.

Jene-chan
Aug 26, 2018, 06:41 AM
OP, I'm just here to approve of your decision.

With exception of extreme RNG Weila series, Austere rear + arm is superior to 12* in terms of pure stats*. 12*s offer more utility thanks to ring slots, but it's your choice whether you want more utility or better stats.

Except, we don't have a definite time frame on when some of those Rings are being moved into the Skill Tree and that he could get utility /right now/. Most classes /require/ 3-4 Rings which aren't any of the ones being moved into the Skill Tree, and even so, we already discussed that there are a good amount of other utility Rings which can be added once those slots free up as well. OP plays Fo and to basically every other person who plays Fo in this thread, playing the class without 4 Rings (Air Reversal/Short Mirage/TCP/Step Jump) is just hindering yourself.

Not to mention you're not future proofing yourself. Aus Set Bonus /does/ give more PP and a little more Atk than most 2 unit combos in the 12* range, but unless you're running Bow Br or Partisan, you really don't need PP in excess of 160-170+ anymore, and you can hit that with most common affix paths. The minor stat bonuses you get with the set don't outweigh the ability to slot Rings.

TehCubey
Aug 26, 2018, 06:56 AM
That's what you say, and here I am running with two L-rings and I don't feel inconvenienced or hindered at all.

On the other hand I would feel inconvenienced if I had less PP than I have right now.

Also you're being inconsistent. You brush aside rings' utility being changed into skills in the future because we don't have a time frame for when it happens exactly, and then mention future proofing in case Sega somehow adds new L-rings into the game - even though they didn't make such an announcement nor did they add any new rings for a long, long time. It feels like it's another system they added into the game and then eventually abandoned, having decided it's not a good idea.

Jene-chan
Aug 26, 2018, 07:21 AM
That's what you say, and here I am running with two L-rings and I don't feel inconvenienced or hindered at all.

On the other hand I would feel inconvenienced if I had less PP than I have right now.

Also you're being inconsistent. You brush aside rings' utility being changed into skills in the future because we don't have a time frame for when it happens exactly, and then mention future proofing in case Sega somehow adds new L-rings into the game - even though they didn't make such an announcement nor did they add any new rings for a long, long time. It feels like it's another system they added into the game and then eventually abandoned, having decided it's not a good idea.

I mean, do you have a PP battery for Fo (Orbit GS/Talis or Val GS with Orbit SSA)? General consensus is that you don't need THAT much PP anymore and you can recover PP quickly on Fo by minimizing movement + doing a quick swap to a battery weapon.

also re: future proofing, it was more in the sense that now you can slot /other/ useful utility Rings instead of the ones being added to the tree. They haven't really done anything with Rings yet in EP5 but making a set of 11* Units when we already have a lot of useful/worthwhile Rings to slot in means I feel like OP will be looking into replacing sooner than he should.

You can obviously make 11* Units if you want to try to squeeze out stats, but I really don't think I would tell someone "you did the right thing" by making 11*s for their main class at this point. Pretty much everyone agrees the meta has shifted to 12*s AND you can make Units very comparable to the Aus Set bonus WHILE having utility Rings in them.

TehCubey
Aug 26, 2018, 07:51 AM
I'll just add this: you mentioned ABC, right?

If you need to switch to your orbit while the enemy is still there and targettable, then you're not casting techs and are losing out on damage. A situation where you can maintain 100% uptime while the enemy is targettable and recharge only when they're not (or moved away and you have to relocate, for example when fighting dragon) is ideal and not very realistic - but the closer you are to it, the higher your damage output will be.

So, even with ease of regaining PP, the more you have it the better your uptime and higher the DPS. I find that much more compelling than extra L-ring slots that a portion of the playerbase kept repeating as being so useful basically since 12*s came out, but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, the utility is still there, but I find it less useful than the ability to deliver sustained damage. Even for classes with strong normal attacks (hero for example), more PP is still more uptime and a better damage output overall.

XrosBlader821
Aug 26, 2018, 07:57 AM
I literally can't play this game without step jump and Air reversal nowadays. These are some of the first rings I create when gearing up characters because the amount of mobility, utility and survivability they give is immense. Air Reversal is a must have for magatsu, unless you like wasting time falling to the ground and then climb back up again.

Playing the game nowadays with 11* units in my opinion is like cutting one of your legs off and saying it doesn't bother you to walk around with a crutch. Maybe in 2017 before step jump worked on all dodge actions you guys had a point but nowadays you're slowing yourself down. The reason Sega turns those 4 skill rings into skill tree skills is because they wanna free up room for some of the more niche skill rings, like just reversal blast, giving you an attack for screwing up and not completely ruining your DPS or Mate / Atomizer Lovers speeding up and increasing your recovery items or Party of Toughness, reducing damage received in group content.

Jene-chan
Aug 26, 2018, 08:23 AM
I'll just add this: you mentioned ABC, right?

If you need to switch to your orbit while the enemy is still there and targettable, then you're not casting techs and are losing out on damage. A situation where you can maintain 100% uptime while the enemy is targettable and recharge only when they're not (or moved away and you have to relocate, for example when fighting dragon) is ideal and not very realistic - but the closer you are to it, the higher your damage output will be.

So, even with ease of regaining PP, the more you have it the better your uptime and higher the DPS. I find that much more compelling than extra L-ring slots that a portion of the playerbase kept repeating as being so useful basically since 12*s came out, but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, the utility is still there, but I find it less useful than the ability to deliver sustained damage. Even for classes with strong normal attacks (hero for example), more PP is still more uptime and a better damage output overall.

https://twitter.com/eirene0412/status/1007281539573379072

While that is true, #1, you should be aiming to move as little as possible on FoTe to reap the benefits of PP Restorate while standing still. Even with an Orbit battery, I can swap to it for 1-2 seconds and recover half or more of my PP. It would be even better if I made a Val GS battery. While, yes, technically you are stopping DPS for 1-2 seconds to swap in but it's really not that much of a loss. Also, my comment re: ABCs was more towards seeing people with awesome gear but finding a large discrepancy in their DPS in boss encounters.

Also, I'll refer to my post on page 1 for Aus Set Bonus vs. Buster Units:

http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?238094-Let%92s-Talk-Units&p=3452324&viewfull=1#post3452324

Aus gets you 70 more HP, 10 more PP and 10 more Atk. Honestly, with the current meta, the HP is the biggest loss there but that can easily be made up literally anywhere with affixing and proper Unit choice. Buster Units have been out for a year and are pretty common in all Omega content. Again, having a huge PP pool isn't really needed anymore outside of certain builds (Bow Br/Partisan/Time Attack Builds).

If you want to re-purpose some old Aus Units for a sub, that's fine, but if you're gearing your main, you really have no reason to not be using at least Buster Units for the Ring coverage.

Meteor Weapon
Aug 26, 2018, 08:36 AM
Didn't they mention they're gonna update Austere series or something? I'm not sure if that includes with the units.

Also, is there a reason they're lagging two months on implementing Step Jump and Air Reversal into the skill tree? They could have implement it by next update and be done with instead of waiting.

Jene-chan
Aug 26, 2018, 08:43 AM
Didn't they mention they're gonna update Austere series or something? I'm not sure if that includes with the units.

Also, is there a reason they're lagging two months on implementing Step Jump and Air Reversal into the skill tree? They could have implement it by next update and be done with instead of waiting.

Aus weapons are getting an NT version at some undisclosed time. There will be some conversion from Aus OT to NT but we really don't know anything about that. We also don't know if that includes the Units but if they make 12* Aus Units, they most likely will not have a Set Bonus.

Also, as I mentioned, we don't have an actual time frame on when they're putting Step Jump/Air Reversal into the tree but it's probably within the next 2 months. We do know they're putting Double Jump/First Blood on the tree before then.

XrosBlader821
Aug 26, 2018, 08:53 AM
Didn't they mention they're gonna update Austere series or something? I'm not sure if that includes with the units.

Also, is there a reason they're lagging two months on implementing Step Jump and Air Reversal into the skill tree? They could have implement it by next update and be done with instead of waiting.

From the sound of it Sega wants the October update to be huge for re balancing. We're gonna get Bow dodge action, Rapid shoot CD reduction, Jet Boots overhaul in multiple areas, Rings will become Skill tree skills and possibly some parts we still don't know about.

Zephyrion
Aug 26, 2018, 10:39 AM
I literally can't play this game without step jump and Air reversal nowadays. These are some of the first rings I create when gearing up characters because the amount of mobility, utility and survivability they give is immense. Air Reversal is a must have for magatsu, unless you like wasting time falling to the ground and then climb back up again.

Playing the game nowadays with 11* units in my opinion is like cutting one of your legs off and saying it doesn't bother you to walk around with a crutch. Maybe in 2017 before step jump worked on all dodge actions you guys had a point but nowadays you're slowing yourself down. The reason Sega turns those 4 skill rings into skill tree skills is because they wanna free up room for some of the more niche skill rings, like just reversal blast, giving you an attack for screwing up and not completely ruining your DPS or Mate / Atomizer Lovers speeding up and increasing your recovery items or Party of Toughness, reducing damage received in group content.

I do want to make a case for air reversal though. I do agree step jump is a must-have for literally every class atm. Air reversal, as you and mil mentioned is very quest-dependent. I did end up slotting it on a ghetto *12 that I use for maggy and underman/solo but its utility just goes from a must-have to a " why is that on my unit again" depending. Even something silly as A Rod Shoot mode feels more impactful in some quests, which says a lot

Aexorcet
Aug 26, 2018, 11:09 AM
LA cancel forces you to go through the walking animation to start moving again. after i got step jump for fo, i could never go back; the movement after switching to orbit feels clunky and slow with LA cancel.
If you're going to run; but Ilzonde is one of the most mobile abilities in the game right now. With Bolt Tech PP Save it barely costs you anything and you can reduce the costs further with PP cost reducing special abilities.

The few seconds of walking before getting to full running speed is definitely clunky, but you don't have to deal with it necessarily between Fo being ranged and having a great movement tech.


as for units, have you played forest much? it drops all the bode units and has had multiple boost weeks. people are always playing it in pug blocks.
I've tried it during a few boost periods but I didn't get any units, just a couple of 13*'s. I didn't hardcore grind it, but grinding was never really my thing even when I played a lot. Especially when it's a purely random drop.


I literally can't play this game without step jump and Air reversal nowadays. These are some of the first rings I create when gearing up characters because the amount of mobility, utility and survivability they give is immense. Air Reversal is a must have for magatsu, unless you like wasting time falling to the ground and then climb back up again.
I definitely appreciate what the rings give you, but they don't really make it into my can't live without list, at least for Fo. On Magatsu, my biggest issue is having Magastu lag off into the distance and falling because what I was standing on disappeared. Air Reversal won't help too much there. Getting knocked off doesn't happen all the often. I think of Air Reversal more as insurance than some kind of active protection. It's for when you make a mistake (everyone does) in specific situations.



Aus gets you 70 more HP, 10 more PP and 10 more Atk. Honestly, with the current meta, the HP is the biggest loss there but that can easily be made up literally anywhere with affixing and proper Unit choice. Buster Units have been out for a year and are pretty common in all Omega content. Again, having a huge PP pool isn't really needed anymore outside of certain builds (Bow Br/Partisan/Time Attack Builds).

You can't really make up for better stats with affixes unless the unit in question makes a superior affix easier (Bode having Catalyst or whatever it was for example). Austere will always have better bonus stats than buster units and this gives you more flexibility in affixing. The rings might be worth more than the stats, but that's a separate issue from affixes.

Jene-chan
Aug 26, 2018, 11:22 AM
You can't really make up for better stats with affixes unless the unit in question makes a superior affix easier (Bode having Catalyst or whatever it was for example). Austere will always have better bonus stats than buster units and this gives you more flexibility in affixing. The rings might be worth more than the stats, but that's a separate issue from affixes.

70 HP, 10PP and /especially/ 10 Attack does not make up for the utility of Rings. That's only when comparing to Buster Units. Bode Units give you more Attack then Aus Set Bonus and more Resistances at the cost of some HP but again, you can make up HP easily in any slot and players generally don't need huge amounts of PP anymore soooooo...

Aexorcet
Aug 26, 2018, 11:50 AM
70 HP, 10PP and /especially/ 10 Attack does not make up for the utility of Rings. That's only when comparing to Buster Units. Bode Units give you more Attack then Aus Set Bonus and more Resistances at the cost of some HP but again, you can make up HP easily in any slot and players generally don't need huge amounts of PP anymore soooooo...

Yeah it's fine to ditch the stats for rings, I was just pointing out that you can't really make up for innate stats with affixes. I think it's better to look at all the stats together as opposed to breaking them down by category, unless you're going to discount a category (as you are with PP). Unless a given set of units gives you all of certain stat that you'll ever want (let's say PP), then having more of that stat on another set of units would just allow you to buff other stats (HP and/or attack) more with those other units.

If I were looking into new units with an accompanying affix, I'd wait to see what the buster upgrade was, then select between that, Bode, Qliphad, and Austere if I didn't want more than Short Mirage.

milranduil
Aug 26, 2018, 05:43 PM
I'll just add this: you mentioned ABC, right?

If you need to switch to your orbit while the enemy is still there and targettable, then you're not casting techs and are losing out on damage. A situation where you can maintain 100% uptime while the enemy is targettable and recharge only when they're not (or moved away and you have to relocate, for example when fighting dragon) is ideal and not very realistic - but the closer you are to it, the higher your damage output will be.

So, even with ease of regaining PP, the more you have it the better your uptime and higher the DPS. I find that much more compelling than extra L-ring slots that a portion of the playerbase kept repeating as being so useful basically since 12*s came out, but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, the utility is still there, but I find it less useful than the ability to deliver sustained damage. Even for classes with strong normal attacks (hero for example), more PP is still more uptime and a better damage output overall.

the difference between 170pp and say 210pp is 2 techs at best, 1 otherwise. especially if you have orbit SSA gs, having 210pp is literally meaningless outside of TA (very specific content). also, if you have no long-term experience with L-rings, you don't really have room to dismiss other's knowledge of their usefulness. of all the classes you could have made an example of, hero was the worst choice. swords normal are 21% less dps than vapor bullet and the best dps combos all use normal3 to begin with. TA is again the only place where a large pp pool is justified.


I do want to make a case for air reversal though. I do agree step jump is a must-have for literally every class atm. Air reversal, as you and mil mentioned is very quest-dependent. I did end up slotting it on a ghetto *12 that I use for maggy and underman/solo but its utility just goes from a must-have to a " why is that on my unit again" depending. Even something silly as A Rod Shoot mode feels more impactful in some quests, which says a lot

as was said before, many rings feel much less impactful if you only play pug EQ and afk otherwise, particularly if you don't have boss aggro and are otherwise being ignored altogether to do whatever the hell you want.


If you're going to run; but Ilzonde is one of the most mobile abilities in the game right now. With Bolt Tech PP Save it barely costs you anything and you can reduce the costs further with PP cost reducing special abilities.

this is a situational contradiction. half the point of step jump on fo is so you can move with your orbit while you regen. you can't ilzonde if you are out of pp.

Aexorcet
Aug 26, 2018, 07:50 PM
this is a situational contradiction. half the point of step jump on fo is so you can move with your orbit while you regen. you can't ilzonde if you are out of pp.

OK I see what you're saying now. Since the PPR change though I usually stand still with orbit to minimize the time I need to have it equipped. Then when I'm done and need to move, I'll switch weapons and Ilzonde.

nyaaaaa
Aug 27, 2018, 12:38 AM
I asked a somewhat not-quick question about units for my current situation in the quick questions thread with no luck; should I just add it here since there seems to be a somewhat active unit/affixing discussion going on?

Also, from what I have read, am I doing something wrong? Because my issue is meseta (~20mil or so) and not excubes (3k); while it seems to be the opposite for others? (Granted, apparently a 5s Yamato Factor unit is worth ~10mil and I have one, so I can probably make more meseta if I opened a shop I suppose...)

Jene-chan
Aug 27, 2018, 09:49 AM
I asked a somewhat not-quick question about units for my current situation in the quick questions thread with no luck; should I just add it here since there seems to be a somewhat active unit/affixing discussion going on?

Also, from what I have read, am I doing something wrong? Because my issue is meseta (~20mil or so) and not excubes (3k); while it seems to be the opposite for others? (Granted, apparently a 5s Yamato Factor unit is worth ~10mil and I have one, so I can probably make more meseta if I opened a shop I suppose...)

Sure, you can go ahead.

20M isn't a lot to work with but you should be able to make a fine 5s unit with that much, depending on what you're going for.