Disregard for old classes

[MightyHarken]

I remember back in the day, playing Ranger or Hunter was really satisfying, as we were constantly getting new Photon arts, and new gamplay abilities to train with. However, it's been more than a year since we got any really significant changes. And I'm not talking about PA buffs, or better stats. I'm talking about new game changing elements.

I say it would be really nice if we got a new weapon type for the old classes. Something that gets them on par with how dynamic Hero and Phantom feels. So here's what I had in mind.

Ranger and Gunner: Shotguns with a weapon action, and PA combinations, similar to Phantom.

Hunter: Saber and shield. (Very similar to the gameplay you get when fighting the Crimson Dragon.

Braver: Shurikens (Striking damage for mid distance fighting)

I know there are more old classes out there, but these are all the weapons that came to my mind.

[wahahaha]

Upvoted

[ZerotakerZX]

Sweet dreams

[[Ayumi]]

Ranger and Gunner: Shotguns with a weapon action, and PA combinations, similar to Phantom.

Excuse you, but they're called Spreads.

[ArcaneTechs]

I've wanting/complaining about this for years and givin Sega LOVES to reuse everything that I think the only real way of knowing that a new weapon type could come is after Ep6 ends or toward the end of the year when the next successor class gets close to release they tease a new class again for mid 2020 or something.

-Hunter: Axes
-Ranger: Laser Cannons (maybe the new class will turn Launchers into them)
-Force: Ground element (it can be done)
-Gunner: Shotguns or Crossbows (or both)
-Fighter: Twin Claws
-Techer: Whips
-Braver: no idea
-Bouncer: no idea
-Summoner: nothing

I liked all these options in PSU, it was great having a variety of weapons to pick from and while I do like how most of the successor weapons came out to be, I'd like to see some new weapon types just in general.

[Zulastar]

-Hunter: Axes
-Ranger: Laser Cannons (maybe the new class will turn Launchers into them)
-Force: Ground element (it can be done)
-Gunner: Shotguns or Crossbows (or both)
-Fighter: Twin Claws
-Techer: Whips
-Braver: no idea
-Bouncer: no idea
-Summoner: nothing


-Braver: Needlers
-Bouncer: Slicers

[ArcaneTechs]

-Braver: Needlers
-Bouncer: Slicers

the hell are needlers? and I didnt say slicers because I was thinking of Hero but those are cards. slicers feel like they fit BR more than BO

[Tunga]

Hunters : Axes because a big class requires big weapons jabrogi
Bravers are the weeb class so shurikens make sense
Bouncer: maybe twin claws but twin claws make more sense for fighter.

[XrosBlader821]

I will never agree with adding more Weapon types unless Sega will also reduce RNG when it comes to obtaining them. It was already bad enough that when hunting Jutus I had to go through 8 Golem Swords and Takts before even getting 1 Jutus, which didn't belong to the class I was playing. I will say though that both Te and Gu need a secondary weapon that plays better into the class's strength than Talis and Rifle. Magical Whips and Spreads (i assume those are shotguns) sound like they'd work perfectly for that.

When it comes to PA i think Sega did finally get the Memo with JB and Hu Sword finally getting a new PA (or type 0 craft w/e) in summer but I'd rather see Sega improve on some of the barebones mechanics in this game. I know that Weak Bullet is supposed to be Zalure (renamed for the sake of the Weakpoint mechanic) but it'd be really nice if we got a class who's group contribution was to inflict Zalure on enemies just for the sake of having that negative status back.

[Zephyrion]

Am I the only one satisfied with the state of things ? everyone got 2 to 3 weapons with tons of PAs, and more to come? If anything I'd want them to do a major PA damage/behavior for most of the less useful PAs (shoutouts to FI for not even using a third of their PAs).

We got major balance overhaul in EP5 along with new skills (more or less impactful, that I can agree with) and more to come, old classes are still changing as much as they used to, and only really stagnated in EP4 sooo...I'm calling nostalgia lenses on this one.

If any new weapons were to came out, I'd rather have those on a whole new class with their own skills and all

[Kondibon]

Am I the only one satisfied with the state of things ? everyone got 2 to 3 weapons with tons of PAs, and more to come? If anything I'd want them to do a major PA damage/behavior for most of the less useful PAs (shoutouts to FI for not even using a third of their PAs).

We got major balance overhaul in EP5 along with new skills (more or less impactful, that I can agree with) and more to come, old classes are still changing as much as they used to, and only really stagnated in EP4 sooo...I'm calling nostalgia lenses on this one.

If any new weapons were to came out, I'd rather have those on a whole new class with their own skills and allI agree, particularly when it comes to rebalancing old stuff instead of adding new stuff. People want new toys, but why get those when getting old stuff fixed can be just as exciting?

[the_importer_]

They're not even making new weapons for new classes, doubt they'll make new ones for the old classes. Also, this would mean retroactively make new 13, 14 and 15★ weapons of these new ones as well to keep up with upgrades and trades.

Nah, I get the feeling that they'll do something new with the old classes during EP6, but it won't be about new weapons ;-)

[Suirano]

I was surprised that Hero didn't get Sword and Shield type weapons as their main. I genuinely thought that was gonna be the thing with it especially with that sword used on the Dragon.

[ArcaneTechs]

I agree, particularly when it comes to rebalancing old stuff instead of adding new stuff. People want new toys, but why get those when getting old stuff fixed can be just as exciting?
because once the successor weapons get done we want new, not continued reimagining of the current weapons. gets pretty stale just like the current amount of PA's/Techs right now and even then lack of T0's being added

[megaphone]

I mean, successor weapons are new weapons in everything but name

[Kondibon]

What Megaphone said. The successor classes basically add new weapons mechanically without them needing to make a bunch of new lower tier rares and commons no one is ever going to use anyway, on top of just inflating the drop pool. If you just want the new shiny then it shouldn't matter if it's just the old stuff polished up or not.

Also, I'm not sure why you think new PAs and weapons wouldn't also get stale.

[ArcaneTechs]

I mean, successor weapons are new weapons in everything but name
just like how LQ's are completely new maps not just map variants slapped together right?




Also, I'm not sure why you think new PAs and weapons wouldn't also get stale.

they would after a very long extent but if you go and look at whats been out and compare how much has changed over the years, its much outside values and small pool of T0's. also weapon inflation wouldnt matter considering they can up the rates of what the main class is so those drop more, Jutus was random, absolutely nothing you could do about it so its not really a valid reason for loot pool littering

[megaphone]

just like how LQ's are completely new maps not just map variants slapped together right?

That depends what the term "new map" means to you, but no, not like that at all. Successor weapons are, mechanically, completely new weapons; they have different PAs, different normal attacks, and in some cases (hero TMG & talis) the fundamental mechanics are completely different. The only thing they share with their non-successor counterparts is the piece of gear itself, which imo is a huge boon as it means you can share the weapon between classes rather than having to farm a whole new one.

[final_attack]

I personally would love old classes can use successor class's gameplay + PA if they got them unlocked (with some limitations) and vice versa (with some adjustment due to multiplier and skills available, maybe).

Like .... Gu can set Gu's Tmg gameplay (Sroll + dive roll) on palette 1, Hr's Tmg gameplay (reload + step) on palette 2 (no weapon switching + counter mechanics for Gu main, or no SRollArts for Hr main).
Can set different normal attack type would be nice too (can choose between Hr's or Gu's normal attack).

Less weapon type also kinda beneficial for me, personally .... considering I usually stick to 1 type due to irl things ^^;
Way cheaper too, I think.

[Tyreek]

How about actually giving Ranger's rifle and launcher a gear? Like a majority of the rest of the weapon types?

[MightyHarken]

Am I the only one satisfied with the state of things ? everyone got 2 to 3 weapons with tons of PAs, and more to come? If anything I'd want them to do a major PA damage/behavior for most of the less useful PAs (shoutouts to FI for not even using a third of their PAs).

We got major balance overhaul in EP5 along with new skills (more or less impactful, that I can agree with) and more to come, old classes are still changing as much as they used to, and only really stagnated in EP4 sooo...I'm calling nostalgia lenses on this one.

If any new weapons were to came out, I'd rather have those on a whole new class with their own skills and all

The old PA's are old, they belong in episode 1. The new enemies and challenges require modern gameplay tactics. There's no way to make old classes dynamic like phantom of hero without a new weapon type that changes how the old classes fight.

[echofaith]

I think old PAs and weapons are mostly fine. At most, I would like if they removed hitstop altogether, but not a big deal. What I really want though, is for a revamp for regular attacks. For me, a big reason advance classes feel smooth is because you can rely in their normal attacks for more than just PP healing(fast, almost no hitstop, aoe, good damage) and lets be real, they have better aesthetics which play a big deal in making things feel smooth.

Now to be fair, they did increase the damage already and also added more stuff, but some still feel lacking(partizan, rifle, rod and talis) and overall they still feel slow (Sac Bite Sword is one of the best normals with both DPS and Aoe, but it doest feel anywhere close as smooth as Hero Sword). I can understand that they cant be as good as the advanced classes, but I would like the whole animations were changed into new faster and flashier ones :p

[landman]

Hero's talis have PSO slicers PA, while phantom rods have PSU Slicers PA. Now... where are my PSZ slicers? :wacko:

[Zephyrion]

The old PA's are old, they belong in episode 1. The new enemies and challenges require modern gameplay tactics. There's no way to make old classes dynamic like phantom of hero without a new weapon type that changes how the old classes fight.

Why would you ever want that tho ? Old classes trades ease of use and fluidity for massive DPS when you set them up properly. Most of the actually useful PAs with proper conditional setup do way more than any successor class could ever hope to achieve. It's just a different way of playing which is fine in my book.

Like personal opinion but LOTS of people complain about Ranger not being fluid enough, or Hunter being too slow, but isn't that also fine ? I don't always want to zip around and kill things with lightning fast multi-hits, sometimes I also feel like going for giant swords that feel like I'm swinging actual claymores, indulge in partisan combo system and peculiar rhythm (nailing combos, playing around them to set your charge parries correctly, managing your PP and being rewarded for keeping up with all your tools by good ol graptor nuke makes me feel better than anything successor classes ever had to offer to me, but that's personal feelings), or just play with my positioning to then unleash rifle and launcher nukes on enemies. While I wouldn't be against further QoL I defo don't want them to completely change what makes Hunter and Ranger...well Hunter and Ranger.

tl;dr Smoothing things up is fine, but overhauling old classes too much would only bring boring uniformization. Phantom is fun because it's the only one playing this way, same for Hero

[MightyHarken]

Why would you ever want that tho ? Old classes trades ease of use and fluidity for massive DPS when you set them up properly. Most of the actually useful PAs with proper conditional setup do way more than any successor class could ever hope to achieve. It's just a different way of playing which is fine in my book.

Like personal opinion but LOTS of people complain about Ranger not being fluid enough, or Hunter being too slow, but isn't that also fine ? I don't always want to zip around and kill things with lightning fast multi-hits, sometimes I also feel like going for giant swords that feel like I'm swinging actual claymores, indulge in partisan combo system and peculiar rhythm (nailing combos, playing around them to set your charge parries correctly, managing your PP and being rewarded for keeping up with all your tools by good ol graptor nuke makes me feel better than anything successor classes ever had to offer to me, but that's personal feelings), or just play with my positioning to then unleash rifle and launcher nukes on enemies. While I wouldn't be against further QoL I defo don't want them to completely change what makes Hunter and Ranger...well Hunter and Ranger.

tl;dr Smoothing things up is fine, but overhauling old classes too much would only bring boring uniformization. Phantom is fun because it's the only one playing this way, same for Hero


Not sure if you're not quite getting what I'm trying to say, but I never mentioned changing the old classes. I clearly said new weapons with more dynamic options to be added, not replace what is already there. Also, please remember that I never mentioned their DPS was lacking. Been playing Ranger for since the game has existed, and I recently tried Phantom, which made me realized that SEGA is just keeping old classes relevant by giving them power buffs, instead of keeping adding new photon arts, or give us more toys to play with.

[Zephyrion]

Not sure if you're not quite getting what I'm trying to say, but I never mentioned changing the old classes. I clearly said new weapons with more dynamic options to be added, not replace what is already there. Also, please remember that I never mentioned their DPS was lacking. Been playing Ranger for since the game has existed, and I recently tried Phantom, which made me realized that SEGA is just keeping old classes relevant by giving them power buffs, instead of keeping adding new photon arts, or give us more toys to play with.

It amounts to the exact same thing though ? Bringing new weapons to the table means that you consider old weapons outdated and want old classes to play exactly like successor classes. It also would completely kill any sense of class identity regardless, or even be contrary to what class skills dictate

They're indeed keeping old classes relevant with power buffs, but I consider this fine because I do think all they need is keeping up. Every class is set to get new PAs for every weapon for the course of EP6, so you're covered on that part already. as for "new toys" it's exactly what new classes should bring you. If you're giving new things to old classes, either you make said things good and kill all incentives for players to play the brand new shiny classes/use old weapons, and if you make them underwhelming, they end up feeling like bad jokes. Each class plays and feels a different way, and imo, best way to promote new flavours of gameplay is keep the new toys for brand new classes.

When all is said and done though it's only my opinion. I do think there would be benefits in giving new weapons to old classes, just I feel that the cons outweigh the pros.

[XrosBlader821]

Not to mention the director for EP6 seems to get the right idea by moving away from weapon series sharing same potentials across all weapon types and bringing more unique weapons to the table that might change the way a class is being played.
Not to mention Crafting is getting a revival soon so we might be seeing the return of the good old days where classes could be built in a huge variety of ways.
Not to mention we just got Phantom as a subclass which can be effectively used by half of all Regular classes to change up the gameplay style.

[[Ayumi]]

Hero's talis have PSO slicers PA, while phantom rods have PSU Slicers PA. Now... where are my PSZ slicers? :wacko:

We don't have PSO Slicers. Quit kidding yourself.

[Kintama]

;3462784']We don't have PSO Slicers. Quit kidding yourself.

Hero Talis is literally Slicer.

In the same way that Ph rod is Scythe.

That's sega's way of implementing new weapons without creating new ones, the next class will probabaly take another weapon and make it behave like a new weapon.

[Dark Mits]

The only "fix" old classes need is "normalization" of utility, and to allow multiple copies of same class to work cooperatively and not destructively (for example 2 TEs is overkill).

[Zephyrion]

The only "fix" old classes need is "normalization" of utility, and to allow multiple copies of same class to work cooperatively and not destructively (for example 2 TEs is overkill).

TE is like a huge exception, double RA kinda too except it's self-sufficient enough for it to not be a huge problem. That's a class-specific issue. Normalization of utility is already present, every class has one chase PA, efficient mobbing and at least decent bossing options, at least two invulnerable PAs on top of universal dodging options. I don't see how any class would fail to operate decently because there is a tool they lack that doesn't allow them to function properly, so they're normalized already. Going further would only make everything feel "samey" and it's no longer normalization but uniformization. I'm not playing FI to play PH or Hero alt version, I play Fi to play Fi, and so on.

[ArcaneTechs]

Hero Talis is literally Slicer.

In the same way that Ph rod is Scythe.

That's sega's way of implementing new weapons without creating new ones, the next class will probabaly take another weapon and make it behave like a new weapon.

Hero Talis are Cards, not Slicers because if that was the case then every talis throw would hit everything in the vicinity when it doesn't

[[Ayumi]]

Hero Talis are Cards, not Slicers because if that was the case then every talis throw would hit everything in the vicinity when it doesn't

Glad I'm not the only one that gets it.

[Crevox]

Feel like they need to streamline and/or make skill trees more interesting. Phantom accomplishes the damage bonuses of Fo/Te in like 2-3 skills vs a billion between Fo/Te with tons of conditions (elements, charge, JA, etc).

[XrosBlader821]

There are a few things I'd want Sega do Skill tree wise
- Fuse Stance Skills together (just the stance skills, not the Stance Up or Crit Boost skills)
- Reduce Sp on Photon Flare, Flame TS Charge, Lightning PP Save to 5 and the Flame/Freeze/Shock Boost skills etc to 1.
- Make Ignition skills good
- Fuse certain stat dumping skills together so that they are more worthy of consideration (stuff like S-DEF Up and DEX Up don't need to be separate)
- Give each class a Craft Mastery Skill
- Give Te a Dex Mag Skill that boosts S and T ATK
- Give Ra a skills that allows Launcher Bullets and Rifle Bullets to be loaded up at the same time (in other Words, using Jellen Shot doesn't delete your stored Weak Bullets)
- While you're at it, reduce Weak bullet and Jellen shot SP to 5