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Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 01:22 PM
Yeah, the problem is that there are a whole lot of us who are NOT leechers--I come to EQ's with a 7-slot 15* +35 weapon with 3 SSA's, two 5-slot Lightstream units, and a 5-slot Tag Bode, I am sure as Hell not leeching--but can't pass the new expert requirements yet, and Sega has essentially just given us the middle finger with this.

Telling 60% of your player base that they can't have nice things because 10% of your player base are leeching jerks does not make for happy customers.

vantpers
May 30, 2019, 01:27 PM
It's called expert, not "my gear is good enough".

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 01:45 PM
Telling 60% of your player base that they can't have nice things because 10% of your player base are leeching jerks does not make for happy customers.

So, I don't like the term "leech" being thrown around in this context either, but expert mode isn't a need or a "nice thing", that people are entitled to. That's the whole point, people don't want to have to carry as hard, and saying that it's not fair that there's even a basic requirement for expert mode is completely missing the point.

If you think you're good enough to play with expert players then you should be able to complete the requirements. Especially with gear like that.

EDIT: There's something to be said about how poorly expert mode actually does its job though, since there's nothing stopping someone from completing it and then using a class they're bad with or undergeared, or straight up actually leeching.

Which reminds me. Leeching isn't about not being good enough guys, it's about intentionally not helping. Someone doing their best isn't leeching, even if their best is only 50% of everyone else. _(:3

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 02:12 PM
It's supposed to only require either Sector 1 or 2 complete once to join Sector 3, is it not working like that?



There's more to leeching than gear you know?

I've seen enough corpses in UH expert as is that I wouldn't trust anyone who can't handle solo Phanatics.

1) There is a difference between someone who is not a top-tier player and someone who is leeching. If you don't understand that, you're so far off into elitist-land that there is no reasoning with you.

2). I have no problem staying alive in UH quests. It's not really that hard. The so-called expert match requirements have very.little to do with the skills you need to survive and succeed in normal content - even in UH. In my one run of this EQ so far, I died ONE time, right at the start of Sector 1, by getting one-shotted by something I thought was just background scenery and not an actual threat (which obviously something that will only happen the first time running the quest).

3). My complaint isn't with the existence of expert match (I don't think it is a good idea in general, but that is off-topic),or even with the expert match requirements (though I think they do a very poor job of judging how well someone really plays the game). My complaint is with the design of the EQ being such that only players with expert match have a realistic chance of getting the drop rate boosts in Sector 3 from repeated runs, meaning Sega is basically cutting ~70% of the player bsse out of the good rewards. THAT is telling the bulk of your player base that you really don't give a damn about their experience.

4). Of course I was running it in UH. What would be the point of running it in a lower difficulty? The whole reason to do EQ's is the reward, so why would I run it in a difficulty that doesn't offer the best rewards? Besides, I run Ultra explorations all the time and don't have problems there, even in non-expert MPA's.

Am I one of the very best players out there? No, I'm not. But I'm not awful, either, and I'm not leeching. There are a lot of players out there like me who aren't "expert", but we put in the effort and we're decent players. The design of this EQ penalizes us for being that. That's all I'm saying.

wefwq
May 30, 2019, 02:26 PM
Telling 60% of your player base that they can't have nice things because 10% of your player base are leeching jerks does not make for happy customers.
I think that it's more than just leeching or not leeching.
https://i.imgur.com/vWE0cJA.png

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 02:33 PM
I think that it's more than just leeching or not leeching.
https://i.imgur.com/vWE0cJA.png

I think you did not read my complaint very well.

I AM NOT ASKING TO BE GIFTED INTO EXPERT MATCH.

I am saying the EQ design is slanted to favor those who have expert match too much.

Some of y'all need to quit putting words in my mouth.

Dark Priest
May 30, 2019, 02:35 PM
Yeah, the problem is that there are a whole lot of us who are NOT leechers--I come to EQ's with a 7-slot 15* +35 weapon with 3 SSA's, two 5-slot Lightstream units, and a 5-slot Tag Bode, I am sure as Hell not leeching--but can't pass the new expert requirements yet, and Sega has essentially just given us the middle finger with this.

Telling 60% of your player base that they can't have nice things because 10% of your player base are leeching jerks does not make for happy customers.

Perhaps the term "expert" has escaped you, not " i could try, but i won't" tag

So, obviously, if you can't pass the expert check, then you're not an expert. i mean it's a pretty basic concept. i said leechers because people who aren't experts, and just sat back while they were carried to get that tag then joins MPAs to drag it down, was obviously a problem. i did not say you specifically were one of those, i stated the problem it was causing.

Dark Mits
May 30, 2019, 02:37 PM
Since you're so well geared and lack skill to even use it to gain expert; you should get your brain checked out. The requirement isn't even that hard.Not everyone has the same type of "skill". It is very common to have great expertise in one department and consider it to be easy and wonder why everyone else cannot perform the same, and have low expertise in something that others can perform without effort.

The new Expert requirements require that players have mostly great reflexes to avoid failure, and then good judgement on what actions to perform to maximize damage output when reflexes are not required, so as to get S rank. A player may have reflexes in the order of F1 drivers (ie ~0.1sec) but struggling to learn what PA/Tech to use depending on situation (or what build/spec to use, what weapons/affixes etc). And on the other hand, a player may have the skill to be able to easily determine the build etc. required for a specific challenge/situation, yet have low reflexes and therefore die to enemy attacks because they couldn't avoid them on time. There are even more types of "skill" required for video games (memorization, inventory management, coordination with actions of other players, prediction of enemy counteraction depending on player's action etc.), but those are not required or tested for Expert Matching in PSO2.

I think I had said it in another thread, but with the Expert requirements becoming harsher, the majority of players from god-tier all the way to "I don't know what's going on" will experience higher quality runs. The players who will have worse experience are those who were Experts before but not now. Here's an eye-tormenting graph done in Paint to explain what I mean:

[SPOILER-BOX]https://i.imgur.com/wwjipng.png[/SPOILER-BOX]

By quality, I mean faster dps

Ceresa
May 30, 2019, 02:42 PM
1) There is a difference between someone who is not a top-tier player and someone who is leeching. If you don't understand that, you're so far off into elitist-land that there is no reasoning with you.

2). I have no problem staying alive in UH quests. It's not really that hard. The so-called expert match requirements have very.little to do with the skills you need to survive and succeed in normal content - even in UH. In my one run of this EQ so far, I died ONE time, right at the start of Sector 1, by getting one-shotted by something I thought was just background scenery and not an actual threat (which obviously something that will only happen the first time running the quest).

3). My complaint isn't with the existence of expert match (I don't think it is a good idea in general, but that is off-topic),or even with the expert match requirements (though I think they do a very poor job of judging how well someone really plays the game). My complaint is with the design of the EQ being such that only players with expert match have a realistic chance of getting the drop rate boosts in Sector 3 from repeated runs, meaning Sega is basically cutting ~70% of the player bsse out of the good rewards. THAT is telling the bulk of your player base that you really don't give a damn about their experience.

4). Of course I was running it in UH. What would be the point of running it in a lower difficulty? The whole reason to do EQ's is the reward, so why would I run it in a difficulty that doesn't offer the best rewards? Besides, I run Ultra explorations all the time and don't have problems there, even in non-expert MPA's.

Am I one of the very best players out there? No, I'm not. But I'm not awful, either, and I'm not leeching. There are a lot of players out there like me who aren't "expert", but we put in the effort and we're decent players. The design of this EQ penalizes us for being that. That's all I'm saying.

Oh I see, if experts complain they're being matched with people worse than them, they're elitists. But if non-experts complain you're being matched with people worse than you it's fine, because it's those people that are the leechers. It's all so clear now.

You're missing out on a drop rate boost, well so what. The rares can still drop, they can still be exchanged with medals. You're getting less because you put in less. If you don't like it then go take a half hour and clear the reqs.

And really, the reqs are a poor judge of how you play the game? Don't die, clear it within x time. What's this EM want for your Sector 3 drop boosts? Clear it fast! You know what helps for that? Clearing fast. Not dying.

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 02:47 PM
Perhaps the term "expert" has escaped you, not " i could try, but i won't" tag

So, obviously, if you can't pass the expert check, then you're not an expert. i mean it's a pretty basic concept. i said leechers because people who aren't experts, and just sat back while they were carried to get that tag then joins MPAs to drag it down, was obviously a problem. i did not say you specifically were one of those, i stated the problem it was causing.

I'm well aware of the concept, thanks. And I wasn't carried to get the previous Expert Match requirements, thank you. Yes, I did it in a party, but I was the only member of that party who never died in that entire run. As a Fighter. And yes, I was using LB every time it was up. Contrary to what you may think, I do not suck at this game. I just struggle with Phaleg snd her damned damage floor. Just that one fight.

But it's OK. I honestly wouldn't mind not having expert match if this EQ had a design that made it possible to get decent rewards without it. All I'm saying is that the EQ design gives the shaft to players who don't have expert match. That is all I am saying!

For crying out loud, if you disagree with me that's fine but I'm getting really sick of people responding like I am claiming I'm entitled to being in expert, because that is not what I am saying.

That said, it really kind of sucks that those of us who aren't "expert" players get shouldered with the burden of carrying that small minority who can't be bothered to grind their freakin' gear.

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 02:51 PM
Not everyone has the same type of "skill". It is very common to have great expertise in one department and consider it to be easy and wonder why everyone else cannot perform the same, and have low expertise in something that others can perform without effort.
As someone with shit reflexes, bad gear, and poor optimization of DPS, there's a bunch of ways to cheese the requirements, and a bunch of resources available to learn the things your bad at. I get that there are straight up disabilities preventing some people from doing better, but if someone has something so bad that they're physically unable to overcome it then I'm not really sure what they would be expecting to do in expert matching anyway. It's like complaining that you can't legally drive because you need glasses to pass the eye exam, while other people don't.


Yes! That is what I am saying from the beginning! My complaint is not with the expert matching, it is with the EQ design!

We are in accord. \o/

Dark Mits
May 30, 2019, 02:53 PM
In all, I think Sega should do away with:
1) Timed boosts (as suggested by other posters, Xbros I think?). Having charge-based boosts would counter the issue of people complaining about "low quality pugs" when they spend 5mins 30sec on a Persona run instead of just 5mins.
2) Multiple runs of EQs. Being better should just allow you to do more stuff else where, in or out of the game. Having rewards and CF progression tied to successfully time attacking the challenge causes this issue of people complaining about "low quality pugs" when they get 4 runs instead of 5

Kril
May 30, 2019, 02:53 PM
I dont understand how people who play this game everyday, get handed the best 15☆ weapons in game with another hand out already here along with multiple rare drop boosts to end game content with Bode tier and above units cant clear 1yr old+ XQ and a 3month solo trigger despite all the power creep we've gotten. Just learn your class, whats so hard about this?

Dark Priest
May 30, 2019, 02:53 PM
I'm well aware of the concept, thanks. And I wasn't carried to get the previous Expert Match requirements, thank you. Yes, I did it in a party, but I was the only member of that party who never died in that entire run. As a Fighter. And yes, I was using LB every time it was up. Contrary to what you may think, I do not suck at this game. I just struggle with Phaleg snd her damned damage floor. Just that one fight.

But it's OK. I honestly wouldn't mind not having expert match if this EQ had a design that made it possible to get decent rewards without it. All I'm saying is that the EQ design gives the shaft to players who don't have expert match. That is all I am saying!

For crying out loud, if you disagree with me that's fine but I'm getting really sick of people responding like I am claiming I'm entitled to being in expert, because that is not what I am saying.

That said, it really kind of sucks that those of us who aren't "expert" players get shouldered with the burden of carrying that small minority who can't be bothered to grind their freakin' gear.

so you say you're aware of the concept, yet you "don't understand" why NON experts players have to play with other non experts...

Alright then.

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 02:54 PM
Oh I see, if experts complain they're being matched with people worse than them, they're elitists. But if non-experts complain you're being matched with people worse than you it's fine, because it's those people that are the leechers. It's all so clear now.

You're missing out on a drop rate boost, well so what. The rares can still drop, they can still be exchanged with medals. You're getting less because you put in less. If you don't like it then go take a half hour and clear the reqs.

And really, the reqs are a poor judge of how you play the game? Don't die, clear it within x time. What's this EM want for your Sector 3 drop boosts? Clear it fast! You know what helps for that? Clearing fast. Not dying.

I'm never going to complain about being matched with someone who doesn't play at a high level of skill.

I will complain about being matched with people who don't try. Which is to say, those who show up with vastly inferior gear, gear not ground, hell, I don't even care if it's not affixed, but at least grind it!

Also those who literally follow the MPA around and don't actually fight anything, I will complain about.

I just want people to make an effort, that's all. I recognize not everyone is going to be skilled. I don't think that's elitist.

Back on topic: so you disagree about the boost, that's fine. We disagree. If you'd just said that at the start we could have avoided a lot of unnecessary going on.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with the boost if non-expert players had at least a decent chance of getting it, even if the expert players could get more of it. If the quest was scaled such that non-expert players could get in two runs of each sector while experts got 3 or even more, it would bother me a lot less. But as it stands, multiple runs are out of reach for non-expert, which means they get no benefit from it at all.

vantpers
May 30, 2019, 02:58 PM
I actually might've misread into it a bit, but it's still funny to blame everyone but not yourself for not being fast enough. Sega's way of handling EQs was always a gigantic mistake. Multishipping resulted in paying customers having a massive advantage over not paying, on top of already well geared player acquiring better gear faster resulting in more imbalanced playerbase that gets its top players buffed by a small around while making casual players fall behind with gear until the new welfare wave. There was never a need to have some many reward bonuses for running quest faster. The boost system, fitting more EQs into timeframe, rare boost carry-over for number of runs now, or multishipping. Snowballs off better geared players having easier time getting even better gear were always present without systems designed to propagate it.

Dark Mits
May 30, 2019, 03:00 PM
I'm never going to complain about being matched with someone who doesn't play at a high level of skill.

I will complain about being matched with people who don't try. Which is to say, those who show up with vastly inferior gear, gear not ground, hell, I don't even care if it's not affixed, but at least grind it!

I don't think that's elitist.As is the common answer in virtually all online games, if you do not like the quality of people you get auto-matched with, then form your own premade groups with your own requirements. People like to ignore this suggestion because they have to invest effort and time in doing so, and they are not willing to do so; they expect others to do this job for them, even if it is an automated tool. Expert Matching from Sega is exactly one such tool, a reaction from the developer to sate the QQ of higher-performers who did not want in the absolute minimum to do any form of socializing in a de-facto multiplayer game.

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 03:14 PM
As is the common answer in virtually all online games, if you do not like the quality of people you get auto-matched with, then form your own premade groups with your own requirements. People like to ignore this suggestion because they have to invest effort and time in doing so, and they are not willing to do so; they expect others to do this job for them, even if it is an automated tool. Expert Matching from Sega is exactly one such tool, a reaction from the developer to sate the QQ of higher-performers who did not want in the absolute minimum to do any form of socializing in a de-facto multiplayer game.
This is bullshit for most of the content people complain about in PSO2, mainly EQs. You can't do them on your own time so, yes, organizing your own groups IS more difficult than it should be, because you have a limited time frame, and even if you know when the EQ is coming up, not everyone you want to do it with might be available. Especially since content is balanced around 12 players a lot of the time. Getting 12 players in most games is a "once a week raid time" thing, not something you do multiple times a day at preset times you have no control over, often with large gaps in-between them. It's completely unreasonable to tell people to "just" make their own groups with the way EQs work; They'd basically have to schedule their lives around it, instead of the other way around.

That said, the most recent EQ is 8 man, and I'm pretty sure 4 really good players could probably do it faster than a full pug, and getting a single party together is a lot more reasonable than 2 or possibly 3 full parties.

For reference, when have you ever seen someone complain about pugs for Endless? Heck, I barely even see people complain about pugs in guruguru quests, usually just making fun people dying a lot in UH.

TL;DR: The EQ system isn't conductive of organizing your own groups on your own time.

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 03:17 PM
I actually might've misread into it a bit, but it's still funny to blame everyone but not yourself for not being fast enough. Sega's way of handling EQs was always a gigantic mistake. Multishipping resulted in paying customers having a massive advantage over not paying, on top of already well geared player acquiring better gear faster resulting in more imbalanced playerbase that gets its top players buffed by a small around while making casual players fall behind with gear until the new welfare wave. There was never a need to have some many reward bonuses for running quest faster. The boost system, fitting more EQs into timeframe, rare boost carry-over for number of runs now, or multishipping. Snowballs off better geared players having easier time getting even better gear were always present without systems designed to propagate it.

I fully agree that the whole EQ system is a problem in this regard. I just think this particular EQ exacerbates it.

Dark Mits
May 30, 2019, 03:26 PM
Getting 12 players in most games is a "once a week raid time" thing, not something you do multiple times a day at preset times you have no control over, often with large gaps in-between them. It's completely unreasonable to tell people to "just" make their own groups with the way EQs work; They'd basically have to schedule their lives around it, instead of the other way around.But see, this is where we disagree. If you have many real life obligations, like work, family etc then yes, it is impossible to reliably arrange 12man runs. However, I can clearly remember that we didn't have trouble back in WoW days to gather 30+ people for a whole 3 hours, 3 days per week, and many of us were actually working and/or having families.

The difference with PSO2 is that the content does not require that much teamwork and "out-of-combat" preparation to get things done; 12 people are still pretty much needed for a smooth run for an average group, however you can still do it with 10, 8, 6, or even entirely solo if the remaining people just stay determined; the only negative being that it will take longer. Fully premade groups do not grant such great benefit compared to pugging that it would become "meta" to go premade, and that's why forming full or even large premade groups isn't really widespread.

But still, we do hear complaints from both camps (current experts and current non-experts) about the quality of pugs. Which is why the old "go make your own group" is and should really be the only viable answer. Expecting an automated system to find 3/7/11 other like-minded, and similarly performing individuals is something which I doubt that it can be accomplished even with the most advanced AI systems currently in existence, let alone for a simple online video game.


For reference, when have you ever seen someone complain about pugs for Endless? Heck, I barely even see people complain about pugs in guruguru quests, usually just making fun people dying a lot in UH.But we did have a thread where we were discussing that some pugs in guruguru (like current UH) are not playing according to "meta" which is to follow a specific circular path, and instead they go and create spawns out of the path of maximum reward per minute.

Dark Priest
May 30, 2019, 03:27 PM
"statics" don't work in this game, this isn't FFXVI where you can plan your endgame runs based on everyones time, you will more then likely have to depend on random players due to the wide variety of times they have EQs, this just isn't that type of game.

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 03:29 PM
I dont understand how people who play this game everyday, get handed the best 15☆ weapons in game with another hand out already here along with multiple rare drop boosts to end game content with Bode tier and above units cant clear 1yr old+ XQ and a 3month solo trigger despite all the power creep we've gotten. Just learn your class, whats so hard about this?

This is very off-topic, so I'm just going to say that what is easy for one person isn't necessarily easy for another, and leave it at that.

vantpers
May 30, 2019, 03:29 PM
Not everyone has the same type of "skill". It is very common to have great expertise in one department and consider it to be easy and wonder why everyone else cannot perform the same, and have low expertise in something that others can perform without effort.

The new Expert requirements require that players have mostly great reflexes to avoid failure, and then good judgement on what actions to perform to maximize damage output when reflexes are not required, so as to get S rank. A player may have reflexes in the order of F1 drivers (ie ~0.1sec) but struggling to learn what PA/Tech to use depending on situation (or what build/spec to use, what weapons/affixes etc). And on the other hand, a player may have the skill to be able to easily determine the build etc. required for a specific challenge/situation, yet have low reflexes and therefore die to enemy attacks because they couldn't avoid them on time. There are even more types of "skill" required for video games (memorization, inventory management, coordination with actions of other players, prediction of enemy counteraction depending on player's action etc.), but those are not required or tested for Expert Matching in PSO2.

I think I had said it in another thread, but with the Expert requirements becoming harsher, the majority of players from god-tier all the way to "I don't know what's going on" will experience higher quality
runs. The players who will have worse experience are those who were Experts before but not now. Here's an eye-tormenting graph done in Paint to explain what I mean:

[SPOILER-BOX]https://i.imgur.com/wwjipng.png[/SPOILER-BOX]
By quality, I mean faster dps
The graphs don't work like that. Bisecting a normal distribution doesn't yield two normal distributions unless my lack of education in statistics is showing again.

Dark Priest
May 30, 2019, 03:31 PM
The graphs don't work like that. Bisecting a normal distribution doesn't yield two normal distributions unless my lack of education in statistics is showing again.

He's basically trying to say the "mid tier" players are going to have a worse time now, since they aren't poor players but are not high enough to be "experts" so they will suffer now by being with the other low-to-mid tier players.

vantpers
May 30, 2019, 03:37 PM
He's basically trying to say the "mid tier" players are going to have a worse time now, since they aren't poor players but are not high enough to be "experts" so they will suffer now by being with the other low-to-mid tier players.

I am still graph triggered since it makes it look like average gear player is suddenly extremely rare occurrence after Sega hits the old expert requirement. It does show the general rule that non expert will be less unbearable on average and expert faster on average.

Dark Mits
May 30, 2019, 03:40 PM
Yeah, that was my bad... I completely effed up the presentation. My point was exactly what Dark Priest said; ie. that everyone will have on average faster and more reliable runs, except for the old Experts who are now non-Experts which will now on average have slower and less reliable runs.

Stormwalker
May 30, 2019, 03:42 PM
Yeah, that was my bad... I completely effed up the presentation. My point was exactly what Dark Priest said; ie. that everyone will have on average faster and more reliable runs, except for the old Experts who are now non-Experts which will now on average have slower and less reliable runs.

I could live with that if the rewards structure of the new EQ wasn't double-stacked to favor faster runs, though.

By this I mean that faster runs rewards you twice: first, you get the rewards from the extra sector 1-2 runs themselves, and then you also get the rare drop rate bonus in Sector 3.

The fact thst they released this EQ the same day the expert match requirements changed makes it really feel like s kick in the teeth.

XrosBlader821
May 30, 2019, 03:57 PM
But see, this is where we disagree. If you have many real life obligations, like work, family etc then yes, it is impossible to reliably arrange 12man runs. However, I can clearly remember that we didn't have trouble back in WoW days
I wish I was 12 again too.

Memes aside along with RL obligations there are also timezones to deal with. In WoW you probably didn't have any reason to interact with people outside your timezone. As a EU player playing a JP game with mostly US friends I can tell you that getting 12 man MPA, even on days wen I can f*ck around, is near impossible for me.

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 03:59 PM
But see, this is where we disagree. If you have many real life obligations, like work, family etc then yes, it is impossible to reliably arrange 12man runs. However, I can clearly remember that we didn't have trouble back in WoW days to gather 30+ people for a whole 3 hours, 3 days per week, and many of us were actually working and/or having families.That's my entire point though. 30 people for 3 consecutive hours 3 days a week is something you can schedule around, and have everyone work out when would be the best time to do it. EQs straight up don't allow that because they happen at preset times spread throughout the day, every day of the week. You can't organize them on your own time.



The difference with PSO2 is that the content does not require that much teamwork and "out-of-combat" preparation to get things done; 12 people are still pretty much needed for a smooth run for an average group, however you can still do it with 10, 8, 6, or even entirely solo if the remaining people just stay determined; the only negative being that it will take longer. Fully premade groups do not grant such great benefit compared to pugging that it would become "meta" to go premade, and that's why forming full or even large premade groups isn't really widespread.Having seen what premades in PSO2 can do, I disagree. The benefits of having a full premade group are huge. Heck, like I said before, even just one or two premade parties will probably clear faster than a pug. The reason it's not done often is simply because it's not practical.


But still, we do hear complaints from both camps (current experts and current non-experts) about the quality of pugs. Which is why the old "go make your own group" is and should really be the only viable answer. Expecting an automated system to find 3/7/11 other like-minded, and similarly performing individuals is something which I doubt that it can be accomplished even with the most advanced AI systems currently in existence, let alone for a simple online video game.To clarify, my issue is that telling people to make their own groups is as useful as telling other players to "git gud". Yes, Ideally people should make their own groups, but my point is that EQs really bad for scheduling that, and expecting it of people is really inconsiderate. I'm not trying to say that expert matching is some be all and end all that should only match the best of the best. I don't even like the expert matching requirements because of how easy it is to just cheese them with a class you're good at then just do expert matching with whatever you want. Outside of extreme cases the expert requirements don't even really do what they're meant to do.


But we did have a thread where we were discussing that some pugs in guruguru (like current UH) are not playing according to "meta" which is to follow a specific circular path, and instead they go and create spawns out of the path of maximum reward per minute.
There's always going to be stuff like that, but it's a lot less common, and like everything else, it stems more from problems in the quest design. People coming in might not know which way everyone is going, or might want to go another way for some reason, but this is obviously a case where making your own group is a lot more practical, so it's not as common.

Meteor Weapon
May 30, 2019, 05:55 PM
The fact thst they released this EQ the same day the expert match requirements changed makes it really feel like s kick in the teeth.

You had a whole two months to complete the expert requirements before it kicked in. Unless you were busy irl theres no excuse to it. You're better off completing the requirements now instead of keep on complaining about it.

You want faster runs? Go get expert. You can say its flawed or anything but its the only viable thing to get a faster run.

Now, imagine if they put Masquerade lv30 as a requirement.

KatsuraJun
May 30, 2019, 05:58 PM
I actually might've misread into it a bit, but it's still funny to blame everyone but not yourself for not being fast enough. Sega's way of handling EQs was always a gigantic mistake. Multishipping resulted in paying customers having a massive advantage over not paying, on top of already well geared player acquiring better gear faster resulting in more imbalanced playerbase that gets its top players buffed by a small around while making casual players fall behind with gear until the new welfare wave. There was never a need to have some many reward bonuses for running quest faster. The boost system, fitting more EQs into timeframe, rare boost carry-over for number of runs now, or multishipping. Snowballs off better geared players having easier time getting even better gear were always present without systems designed to propagate it.

multishipping has nothing to do with the EQ system's design, even if you could do them anytime with a 1 day/week lockout for rewards multishipping would still work
the reason multishipping is effective is because they don't character-bind the drops you get for gear/the gear itself allowing you to share things across characters, so you can pool together your dumb rocks or transfer a gear drop to your main if your other-ship alt gets it.
now whether that's a good thing or not is another question but I don't want my shit character bound

you don't need lightstream to clear expert requirements anyway so whales getting it faster is a non issue, they hand out gear that's acceptable enough literally for free. seriously, if someone can't clear expert requirements on the solo xq side they are either lazy or a combination of bad+stubborn to not cheese it, just swallow your pride and grab a fucking talis or tmg and cheese it with hero or gu/hu respectively if you don't like non-expert matching, nobody will know.

one can say "but im good at eqs i just can't dodge" but I gotta say mashing the same handful of PAs over and over which is pretty much what acceptable EQ gameplay amounts to doesn't really say much about you as a player one way or the other.

vantpers
May 30, 2019, 06:29 PM
multishipping has nothing to do with the EQ system's design, even if you could do them anytime with a 1 day/week lockout for rewards multishipping would still work
the reason multishipping is effective is because they don't character-bind the drops you get for gear/the gear itself allowing you to share things across characters, so you can pool together your dumb rocks or transfer a gear drop to your main if your other-ship alt gets it.
now whether that's a good thing or not is another question but I don't want my shit character bound

No, multishipping has everything to do with Sega being unwilling to lock the EQ clears to the same counter across all ships just because it brings nice money,


you don't need lightstream to clear expert requirements anyway so whales getting it faster is a non issue, they hand out gear that's acceptable enough literally for free. seriously, if someone can't clear expert requirements on the solo xq side they are either lazy or a combination of bad+stubborn to not cheese it, just swallow your pride and grab a fucking talis or tmg and cheese it with hero or gu/hu respectively if you don't like non-expert matching, nobody will know.

Expert requirement isn't where the game ends. Multishipping gets you drop only stuff at acceptable rates compared to doing it once per slot, especially when you have multiple character classes to gear up, and want to for example do Endless Loner, this especially when it was still relevant, now it would be Forever Loner. I myself more care about how the design of EQs and other quests caters too much to the multishipping and multi-running design with ticking boosts, where we get nerfed enemy HP in EQs compared to free fields just because otherwise the EQ wouldn't go fast enough. EQs need to be simplistic as shit nowadays because nobody is gonna be planning any roles like with CM when the EQ timer starts and you gotta fit as many as possible.

What do you think my expert status is anyway?

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 06:42 PM
Now, imagine if they put Masquerade lv30 as a requirement.
Time gating the Expert requirements would be gross. Also, Masq lvl 30 is honestly easier than the solo XQ anyway.

Maninbluejumpsuit
May 30, 2019, 06:49 PM
The fact thst they released this EQ the same day the expert match requirements changed makes it really feel like s kick in the teeth.

We were told what the requirements would be, and when they were going live weeks, or over a month ago.Some of us met the requirements before they were even announced.

the_importer_
May 30, 2019, 07:08 PM
1000 titles required for Expert, I'd like to so how many would hit that?

wefwq
May 30, 2019, 07:10 PM
1000 titles required for Expert, I'd like to so how many would hit that?
Sure spamming subdue za oodan 100 times with every new seasonal NPCs would hone my skills.

the_importer_
May 30, 2019, 07:13 PM
Sure spamming subdue za oodan 100 times with every new seasonal NPCs would hone my skills.

There's not enough NPCs in this game to give you 300 titles.

KatsuraJun
May 30, 2019, 07:14 PM
No, multishipping has everything to do with Sega being unwilling to lock the EQ clears to the same counter across all ships just because it brings nice money

while that's a solution as well, that's still not a quality intrinsic to EQs though. All EQs are are a system of randomly/pre-scheduled quests limited to certain times of the day rather than quests being constantly available to run as a way to limit progression speeds as opposed to weekly/daily lockout limits.
they could very well scrap the whole EQ system altogether and adopt a similar weekly/daily lockout system like other mmos and as long as they don't lock it across ships/character bind gear it'd be the same exact issue
like imagine if you didn't character bind gear/tomes in xiv since someone brought that game up and it could be shared across chars, people would just funnel that shit all to their main, no EQ system, still has the problem of more char slots purchased = faster progression. They'd have to go back to character binding shit or set a global account-wide limit.

that's why so many mmos in recent years have absolutely forced you to lock whatever you get on your character to stay on your character, cause they don't want people to skip/speed up progression by circumventing their weekly/daily limits through grinding it out on multiple characters and funneling it all on their main. encourages people to keep logging in if they gotta do their daily little chores for 10 weeks instead of 2. that's literally exactly what multishipping is and it's really got not much to do with the nature of EQs.


Expert requirement isn't where the game ends. Multishipping gets you drop only stuff at acceptable rates compared to doing it once per slot, especially when you have multiple character classes to gear up, and want to for example do Endless Loner, this especially when it was still relevant, now it would be Forever Loner. I myself more care about how the design of EQs and other quests caters too much to the multishipping and multi-running design with ticking boosts, where we get nerfed enemy HP in EQs compared to free fields just because otherwise the EQ wouldn't go fast enough. EQs need to be simplistic as shit nowadays because nobody is gonna be planning any roles like with CM when the EQ timer starts and you gotta fit as many as possible.

What do you think my expert status is anyway?

I was talking about expert since that was what that person was having a problem with, and idk what your status is, probably cleared? I wasn't speaking about you in the latter half of what I was saying.

Great Pan
May 30, 2019, 07:23 PM
I see a problem which you guys already stated that, good drops only available in sector 3, right? And with shit non-expert MPA, this is impossible.

So, make some good drops come in sector 1 and 2 would be a great thing for us weaklings!

Kril
May 30, 2019, 07:41 PM
I see a problem which you guys already stated that, good drops only available in sector 3, right? And with shit non-expert MPA, this is impossible.

So, make some good drops come in sector 1 and 2 would be a great thing for us weaklings!

there would be no point to the 3rd sector and you have plenty of time to clear Sector 3


This is very off-topic, so I'm just going to say that what is easy for one person isn't necessarily easy for another, and leave it at that.

you guys are complaining about non expert requirements that you had ample time to clear with every day of practice to ensure you cleared said requirement with ample amount of help from people and plenty of youtube videos to watch and put to practice (along with a 2month long LQ's that dropped end game gear to get you ready).

My gripe is the fact that casuals are going to complain to no end until they finally learn/practice those 2 quests and get it done so they can go back into Expert matching again. Again, you play this game everyday God forbid you have to actually learn to play the game a little more efficiently to get back to the norm instead of just blaming Sega for "ruining" the game for you by taking out the "fun".

The only reason this content is easy for me is because I actually took the time to learn the quest, what I was doing wrong, what I could do different, watched would other people did, incorporate some of that into my gameplay and adapt to clear this content through repetitive attempts. its all just LEARNING in the end

Meteor Weapon
May 30, 2019, 08:20 PM
Time gating the Expert requirements would be gross. Also, Masq lvl 30 is honestly easier than the solo XQ anyway.

Solo XQ is a clusterfuck BS compared Masq imo(Omega Hunar is fun to fight tho). Masq gives you a satisfaction killing him(unless you spam him everyday to the point it gets boring. Solo XQ is more to "im done with this clusterfuck BS never gonna do it again" unless someone is a masochist or trying to get an invade.

Great Pan
May 30, 2019, 08:27 PM
there would be no point to the 3rd sector and you have plenty of time to clear Sector 3

B-but, equality, man! Can't casuals get some good stuffs too!? And 10+ minutes per sector isn't a good run in my book.

oratank
May 30, 2019, 09:03 PM
B-but, equality, man! Can't casuals get some good stuffs too!? And 10+ minutes per sector isn't a good run in my book.

yes,you can RNG god gave 15*DB to me when i played on non expert with 1 run on each sector but actually it was by magic of the first day

Kondibon
May 30, 2019, 09:04 PM
Solo XQ is a clusterfuck BS compared Masq imo(Omega Hunar is fun to fight tho). Masq gives you a satisfaction killing him(unless you spam him everyday to the point it gets boring. Solo XQ is more to "im done with this clusterfuck BS never gonna do it again" unless someone is a masochist or trying to get an invade.The only solo XQ stages I would actually consider clusterfucks are 2 and 4 and those are both the easiest. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with Masq being easier and time gated though.

KatsuraJun
May 30, 2019, 11:32 PM
Solo XQ is a clusterfuck BS compared Masq imo(Omega Hunar is fun to fight tho). Masq gives you a satisfaction killing him(unless you spam him everyday to the point it gets boring. Solo XQ is more to "im done with this clusterfuck BS never gonna do it again" unless someone is a masochist or trying to get an invade.

phanatical phantoms is fair as fuck, they completely did away with the boss spam stages aside from 2 and 4 which are actually way easier and don't snowball out of control if you aren't able to kill them rapidly like the old ones.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 12:10 AM
1000 titles required for Expert, I'd like to so how many would hit that?Definitely not a proper way to check if someone is Expert or not. I have 1323 titles, I still die to Deus in Phanatical and I don't even know where to try Mama+Papa because I don't see it in the Quest List.

Crevox
May 31, 2019, 12:13 AM
Definitely not a proper way to check if someone is Expert or not. I have 1323 titles, I still die to Deus in Phanatical and I don't even know where to try Mama+Papa because I don't see it in the Quest List.

It's a trigger you have to buy with Gold Weapon Badge 2019 x50.

ZerotakerZX
May 31, 2019, 01:52 AM
Definitely not a proper way to check if someone is Expert or not. I have 1323 titles, I still die to Deus in Phanatical and I don't even know where to try Mama+Papa because I don't see it in the Quest List.

That's a bit disturbing, actually. I mean you spend a lot of time in the game, having so many titles and all. No diss, just sayin.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 02:39 AM
That's a bit disturbing, actually. I mean you spend a lot of time in the game, having so many titles and all. No diss, just sayin.I spend more time PvPing on forums actually, because I can do it from work, but I can't play from work.

Time spent is relevant. Someone may have 1000 hours spent with 1000+ titles, and someone else may have 5000+ hours while still being at 500 titles. Others remain online even when they're not at their PCs but away sleeping/working/etc., others logout when they're just going for a bio break etc.

Titles are something that you have to actively go for it to earn it, which is different than Expert Reqs. The crushing majority of titles are simply of the variety of "spend time doing this", without requesting effort from the player, just time investment. Expert Reqs are the opposite; they do not require time investment, they require performance. You can have 10000+ hours playing a single build. If you cannot meet the requirements, you don't get the title.

Many people who were complaining about the Time Chronos Stone for 1100 titles didn't have titles from grinding OT weapons, titles from initiating and completing +50 Risk SH Advance Quests, titles for completing 500 tasks in XQs, titles from Casino, titles from NPC Partners etc., which are all just time-gates (and meseta sinks for OT grinding).

XrosBlader821
May 31, 2019, 04:44 AM
Titles aren't a good way to measuring someone's expertise at the game.
If we'd require Masq clear then it should be level 100 at the very least, everything under that level is basically free especially if you have a 15* weapon.
This would also prevent people from carrying by lending account as it would be tedious to log in and out daily for someone else is not only tedious but would flag your account for suspicious behavior, resulting in a ban.
Solo XQ is definitely way too punishing during legitimate play but that wont matter as soon as Sega releases the S1~3 Abilities that turn your weapon into a Solo XQ destroyer, which can happen any day. And even without it still can be cheesed with Hero Talis, Pets (in general) and S4 Vampiric strike,
Solo Mama-Desu is by far the easiest part of this. People get clear times as low as 9 minutes on this quest (depending on class) so an average joe definitely should be able to hit the 18 minute mark with some training.

ZerotakerZX
May 31, 2019, 04:59 AM
Titles aren't a good way to measuring someone's expertise at the game.
If we'd require Masq clear then it should be level 100 at the very least, everything under that level is basically free especially if you have a 15* weapon.
This would also prevent people from carrying by lending account as it would be tedious to log in and out daily for someone else is not only tedious but would flag your account for suspicious behavior, resulting in a ban.
Solo XQ is definitely way too punishing during legitimate play but that wont matter as soon as Sega releases the S1~3 Abilities that turn your weapon into a Solo XQ destroyer, which can happen any day. And even without it still can be cheesed with Hero Talis, Pets (in general) and S4 Vampiric strike,
Solo Mama-Desu is by far the easiest part of this. People get clear times as low as 9 minutes on this quest (depending on class) so an average joe definitely should be able to hit the 18 minute mark with some training.

What's the best to measure time ingame, beside actual time?

I spend more time PvPing on forums actually, because I can do it from work, but I can't play from work.

Time spent is relevant. Someone may have 1000 hours spent with 1000+ titles, and someone else may have 5000+ hours while still being at 500 titles. Others remain online even when they're not at their PCs but away sleeping/working/etc., others logout when they're just going for a bio break etc.

Titles are something that you have to actively go for it to earn it, which is different than Expert Reqs. The crushing majority of titles are simply of the variety of "spend time doing this", without requesting effort from the player, just time investment. Expert Reqs are the opposite; they do not require time investment, they require performance. You can have 10000+ hours playing a single build. If you cannot meet the requirements, you don't get the title.

Many people who were complaining about the Time Chronos Stone for 1100 titles didn't have titles from grinding OT weapons, titles from initiating and completing +50 Risk SH Advance Quests, titles for completing 500 tasks in XQs, titles from Casino, titles from NPC Partners etc., which are all just time-gates (and meseta sinks for OT grinding).
Didn't you we called special olympics pvping now. Didn't bother to read the rest.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 05:10 AM
What's the best to measure time ingame, beside actual time?There isn't any metric, at least not available to the public. I do not know if Sega has any way to internally measure how much time a player is active during their online time.

XrosBlader821
May 31, 2019, 05:33 AM
What's the best to measure time ingame, beside actual time?

How is that related to my post again?

ZerotakerZX
May 31, 2019, 05:40 AM
How is that related to my post again?
Exposition: you told that titles is not very precise way to tell ingame time, but there was the only way at the time.

YOu knew that of course, you just failed to answer my question and decided to avoid answering it, but did so poorly. Next.

XrosBlader821
May 31, 2019, 06:25 AM
Exposition: you told that titles is not very precise way to tell ingame time, but there was the only way at the time.

YOu knew that of course, you just failed to answer my question and decided to avoid answering it, but did so poorly. Next.

No that's not what I said and I don't understand how you could have confused expertise (aka being good at the game) with "time spent playing".

Moffen
May 31, 2019, 08:45 AM
I have over 11000 hours in this gam and i am hot garbage.
I also have 1073 titles.
Neither time statistics or titles will say you're good at the game or not.
None of those two things equate to player skill level.

If you cant clear the current requirements, you shouldnt be in expert.
Anyway
the eq is fun and the music is cool, big wall-kun fistobot was pretty fun to fight and i died laughing when i found an enemy called Saber Diggle. (Shout out to friend who pointed that out)

Dark Priest
May 31, 2019, 08:48 AM
I know i'm not crazy, in that this topic was split, i mean it makes sense as it was really off topic in the one i know these posts from, Someone confirm i haven't completely lost it yet.

otakun
May 31, 2019, 08:57 AM
This was brought up before in the previous thread about this but yeah, there are players in the middle ground who will get fucked over. I know cause I feel that I am in that. I consider myself decent but not good enough for expert, I don't have the concentration and reflexes required for it, it's just how it is. It sucks cause it separates me from my more skilled friends but this is what the playerbase wanted since they're too lazy to make their own groups.

You could always just cheat if you feel you deserve it.

Kondibon
May 31, 2019, 09:37 AM
It sucks cause it separates me from my more skilled friendshttps://i.imgur.com/SvE1ggkm.jpg


but this is what the playerbase wanted since they're too lazy to make their own groups.
https://i.imgur.com/kkwGSaY.jpg

See my rant on the 2nd and 3rd pages about why "just make your own groups" isn't a solution because the EQ system isn't conductive to it, but also that people should be more open to low manning things and just carrying the rest of the pug.

You say you can't play with your friends, then call people lazy for not making organized groups? Are they really your friends if they aren't willing to play with you even though you don't meet the expert requirements? You're aware it's a check box right? People can just turn it off, and it temporarily turns off if you start a quest while in a party with someone who doesn't meet the requirements.



If you cant clear the current requirements, you shouldnt be in expert.

If you CAN clear the requirements you shouldn't be in expert. Source: I cleared the requirements.

Ezodagrom
May 31, 2019, 09:37 AM
This was brought up before in the previous thread about this but yeah, there are players in the middle ground who will get fucked over. I know cause I feel that I am in that. I consider myself decent but not good enough for expert, I don't have the concentration and reflexes required for it, it's just how it is. It sucks cause it separates me from my more skilled friends but this is what the playerbase wanted since they're too lazy to make their own groups.

You could always just cheat if you feel you deserve it.
I'm also in the middle ground (I think), my equipment isn't amazing and I'm rather clumsy too, but I've managed to clear both requirements. ^^;
There's some classes that have an easier time at the solo XQ, like Summoner or Phantom (mostly rod using techs) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8YpPQuqTo).
For the mother/deus trigger, I've found force to be a great class for that, since force can still hit Deus core from far away in the last phases (which saves a bit of time) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqTcykpd9GU).

Dark Priest
May 31, 2019, 09:44 AM
This was brought up before in the previous thread about this but yeah, there are players in the middle ground who will get fucked over. I know cause I feel that I am in that. I consider myself decent but not good enough for expert, I don't have the concentration and reflexes required for it, it's just how it is. It sucks cause it separates me from my more skilled friends but this is what the playerbase wanted since they're too lazy to make their own groups.

You could always just cheat if you feel you deserve it.

I'm not sure how that separates you from your "friends" if they are unwilling to play with you because of an easily removed check box then i got some news for you, They aren't your friends.

The "being lazy" comment was even more baffling. Unless you don't understand how endgame works in this game.

Sriracha X
May 31, 2019, 10:09 AM
I can't speak for the EQ since I haven't had time to do it since the update dropped, but I don't expect Sega to rebalance the EQ (at least anytime soon) to account for more time to get to this Phase 3.

All I can say is that if you aren't getting the clear times you want, your only option is to bust through and unlock Expert Matchmaking or get some buddies to play with. Your chances of running into people with bad or questionable gear/class setup/playstyle gets notably reduced. It sucks that you miss out on the rewards of Phase 3 because people aren't good, but this sounds similar to missing out on, say, Magatsu runs because you kept getting groups that can't kill it until like the 2nd or 3rd gate. It just seems disingenuous to be upset that you can't full clear the new content on the newest highest difficulty because... people can't handle the newest highest difficulty that well yet.

Some of y'all are saying you consider yourself decent but can't get through the new Expert requirements - keep at and you'll get it. I would only consider myself decent on a good day, but I was able to S-rank Solo Phanaticals with a Zara weap set and modestly affixed 2x Union 1x Weila Bode units on my Hero, but it took me plenty of attempts and I still made mistakes on my S-rank completion. Ditto for Mom and Dad where the only real upgrades I had were Lightstream TMGs and Lightstream units to replace the Union ones. Even with me screwing up and losing Hero Boost multiple times, I was able to S-rank it with about 30 seconds until A-rank. This is with me not even researching strategies on videos and just going at it....so yeah you can definitely afford to be sloppy compared to people that are typically clearing it around 9-10mins

otakun
May 31, 2019, 10:11 AM
I'm not sure how that separates you from your "friends" if they are unwilling to play with you because of an easily removed check box then i got some news for you, They aren't your friends.

The "being lazy" comment was even more baffling. Unless you don't understand how endgame works in this game.

Or it could be that I tell them to not join me. Guess that possibility flew over your head. They earned the ability to play with more skilled players in one single game so they deserve to take advantage of that.

Also, you might not understand cause you're probably too young but back in the day when you had to do hard content in an MMO you had to actually gather a group at a certain point to do it with. Auto matching with PUGs is lazy. It's weird you jump to this "you dont understand" or "got some news for you" lines. You should try to be a little less stand-offish when replying to someone which you clearly don't understand their points.

KaizoKage
May 31, 2019, 10:23 AM
Whine all you want, If you want to have expert matching then you have to earn it.

I myself am not included in expert matching thats why Im trying my best to unlock it. Which I obviously failed until now.

jooozek
May 31, 2019, 10:59 AM
instead of whining about whining maybe someone can explain how this garbage quest works, people keep using the word "sector", wuzzat mean

SteveCZ
May 31, 2019, 11:05 AM
I assume "non-experts" should be able to get each sector at least once. This means, I am sure the EQ is well-designed to cope with "non-experts", where everyone should at least be able to complete the EQ (reaches sector 3). If I am one of those who don't care about expert req, at least getting to final boss might already feel like a fun achievement to me.

This also means that the EQ is well-designed for "experts" too, since if you can compress each run, you are able to get more benefit from the EQ by getting more runs as your reward.

If you feel like you can get more of this EQ, it simply means you have to pass the expert requirements first. It's as simple as that.

XrosBlader821
May 31, 2019, 11:11 AM
instead of whining about whining maybe someone can explain how this garbage quest works, people keep using the word "sector", wuzzat mean

Quest is divided in 3 sectors, every 10 minute the sector changes.
First 2 sectors are your typical "mop up the enemies as fast as you can for Points"
Sector 3 is then a bossfight where your racked up points increase drop rate.

jooozek
May 31, 2019, 11:14 AM
thank you!

Meteor Weapon
May 31, 2019, 11:19 AM
"I consider myself decent but I'm not good enough for expert requirements, but i demand a good run hurrdurr."

Almost entirety of this thread. Just go get expert and keep trying.

echofaith
May 31, 2019, 11:29 AM
I had my first run with a friend who wasnt expert, and we had 4 runs total(sector 1 done twice). From what I have seen from other experts, the average to expect is 2/2/1, so we missed only 1 run. If so, non-expert doesnt seem too bad.
Hopefully I can get home early today to do an expert run and see difference for myself.

ralf542
May 31, 2019, 11:46 AM
I'm really curios what people do in the solo XQ and Mother&Deus that makes them fail. Which part of the fight is the problem? Back in the day when I was raiding, I meet people who's dps was lower compared to me when I unequipped most of my gear and spammed only one attack, when I asked why they said "we need to learn the fight before knowing when to attack and what buttons to press", needless to say that we didn't make any progress at all.

Kondibon
May 31, 2019, 12:02 PM
Or it could be that I tell them to not join me. Guess that possibility flew over your head. They earned the ability to play with more skilled players in one single game so they deserve to take advantage of that.Yes, the possibility flew over our heads because you were acting like the game was forcing you to not play with them. I have a friend who doesn't meet the expert requirements that I play with regularly. If you're willingly not playing with them that's on you, it doesn't mean you can't.


Also, you might not understand cause you're probably too young but back in the day when you had to do hard content in an MMO you had to actually gather a group at a certain point to do it with. Auto matching with PUGs is lazy. It's weird you jump to this "you dont understand" or "got some news for you" lines. You should try to be a little less stand-offish when replying to someone which you clearly don't understand their points.I told you to read what I said on the 2nd and 3rd pages because I covered this. EQs are time limited, on a schedule that players have no control over, and happen multiple times a day every day of the week. Organizing your own static groups for 30 minute sessions sprinkled through the day, sometimes with multi-hour gaps is NOT the same as organizing a static group for a single long session you can schedule yourself a couple of times a week.


I assume "non-experts" should be able to get each sector at least once. This means, I am sure the EQ is well-designed to cope with "non-experts", where everyone should at least be able to complete the EQ (reaches sector 3). If I am one of those who don't care about expert req, at least getting to final boss might already feel like a fun achievement to me.I did a non-expert run and still got 2-1-1. Most of that was because I had a hard time getti_(:3


This also means that the EQ is well-designed for "experts" too, since if you can compress each run, you are able to get more benefit from the EQ by getting more runs as your reward.Up until they actually put limits on them all eqs were like that. The only thing that's new is gaining individual drop bonuses based on how many points you get. Do we even know how it scales? It could be negligible.


I'm really curios what people do in the solo XQ and Mother&Deus that makes them fail. Which part of the fight is the problem?
DPS and pp management is the main thing that held me back in Momd/Deus. I know this because when I went to go look at videos to get ideas of what I was doing wrong I saw people playing exactly the same as me and getting like half my time because they had better stuff. It's not like Double where you need specific positioning and well placed burst to skip phases, you can skip mom's shit by just blowing her up, and dpsing deus hard enough means he hides his weakpoint less.

cheapgunner
May 31, 2019, 12:12 PM
I'm really curios what people do in the solo XQ and Mother&Deus that makes them fail. Which part of the fight is the problem? Back in the day when I was raiding, I meet people who's dps was lower compared to me when I unequipped most of my gear and spammed only one attack, when I asked why they said "we need to learn the fight before knowing when to attack and what buttons to press", needless to say that we didn't make any progress at all.

I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p

Ezodagrom
May 31, 2019, 12:30 PM
I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p
I have nowhere close to that much attack and I cleared both, Mother/Deus as FO/TE in 16:13, Solo XQ as Phantom in 9:08. ^^;

milranduil
May 31, 2019, 12:37 PM
Yeah, the problem is that there are a whole lot of us who are NOT leechers--I come to EQ's with a 7-slot 15* +35 weapon with 3 SSA's, two 5-slot Lightstream units, and a 5-slot Tag Bode, I am sure as Hell not leeching--but can't pass the new expert requirements yet, and Sega has essentially just given us the middle finger with this.

Telling 60% of your player base that they can't have nice things because 10% of your player base are leeching jerks does not make for happy customers.

sega isn't calling anyone leechers, they set a bar for higher quality pugs, that's it. the one calling non-expert players leechers is you in this case (or at least that seems to be your viewpoint based on what you're saying, whether you're projecting i cannot say).

the time you spent making this post and complaining about it could have been instead spent practicing either requirement. i understand that especially the XQ can feel unnecessarily punishing with how much damage various things in there do, but that's the point of practice. if you ask for help with your specific class, or tips on how to improve your time/DPS in xq or guides, people are more than willing to including myself.

I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p

i don't think you give enough respect to how much knowledge/skill pays off in both of these quests. dozens of ways exist to improve time for every class. there are people who have s-ranked both expert requirements with te/ra, with no subclass, with gear handed to them by sega (fobos+30 + stella units), etc. i'd recommend checking out videos to watch what people do, see what their builds are, and improve your strategies if they are unoptimized.

Kril
May 31, 2019, 12:41 PM
Maybe this will be the push for some of you to get get expert title done or just i guess not do it and blame others, either way you only help yourself

Mods please my last post wasnt remotely hostile

Dark Priest
May 31, 2019, 12:41 PM
I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p

Nope. my affixes are mid tier at best when i was playing around with the fight on Su/Ph (which seems to be weaker then su/fi) and i s ranked it just fine.

The thing is, Synchro is a boss killer IF you can keep him alive, this is where alter ego REALLY helps after 85 due to harmony. just keep him on the hands and boss, and i hope you know how he combos, because taking 17 minutes on mother alone tells me either you don't or you simply do not know the fight at all. and kept switching out pets, have a pet die quickly to get his buffs from his trait to power him up, and try your best to keep him alive. as he will melt their HP easily if you know how to use him.

Though in all fairness my Synchro was 130 so i assume yours is capped, if you're trying to use him at like 100 you may have problems.

LordKaiser
May 31, 2019, 12:43 PM
There should be another filter in place with different requirements. This way you can have the people who like to solo stuff at the top of the chain and the mid tier players on the middle with 4 players trial quests requirements and the low tier at the bottom.

cheapgunner
May 31, 2019, 12:52 PM
For Mother/Deus, I only switch after a pet dies. They due rarely unless I'm not paying attention, and Synchro for me has seemed lackluster. Even after switching into it after a pillow throws , I hardly see how his ability even ups his dps ( He's 130 to boot with candybox filled).

I have tried combing him over and over but I don't see any increase to dps either. ):-(

Dark Priest
May 31, 2019, 01:01 PM
For Mother/Deus, I only switch after a pet dies. They due rarely unless I'm not paying attention, and Synchro for me has seemed lackluster. Even after switching into it after a pillow throws , I hardly see how his ability even ups his dps ( He's 130 to boot with candybox filled).

I have tried combing him over and over but I don't see any increase to dps either. ):-(

He has the highest DPS out of all Pets. but he is known to be hard to use properly. so yeah, i am guessing you don't know how to use him, his attacks need to be comboed to build geki as that is the PA where most of your spike damage is coming from,

He is by no means lack luster or weak, You just need to use him properly. i could point you to many guides but it's easy to look up if you're serious about it. i thought the same thing when i first got him, he was weak, useless and did little damage, then i realized i was trying to use him like i use other pets, spam one PA and hope for the best.

You'll come around if you work with him.

Ezodagrom
May 31, 2019, 01:06 PM
For Mother/Deus, I only switch after a pet dies. They due rarely unless I'm not paying attention, and Synchro for me has seemed lackluster. Even after switching into it after a pillow throws , I hardly see how his ability even ups his dps ( He's 130 to boot with candybox filled).

I have tried combing him over and over but I don't see any increase to dps either. ):-(
Synchro Ken -> Zan -> Ken -> Zan -> Geki -> Zan -> Ken -> Zan -> Geki -> Zan -> Ken -> Zan -> Geki -> and so on.

Basically, Synchro Geki can only be used at full power after a combo of 4 PAs and the same PA can't be used twice in a row.

Zephyrion
May 31, 2019, 01:14 PM
Since the gear point was mentioned a while ago, I HIGHLY advise anyone who has trouble with the requirements to buy and grind an Awake weapon. Yes it's a *14 but a *14 that's stronger than Austere on bosses, on top of pretty bonkers pp recovery (it's basically a built-in flowing grace whenever a boss is near you, and guess what, solo XQ and triggers are 99% bosses). It's honestly a must-have for how cheap it is for anyone that haven't got or can't get a *15 (or said *15 is already slotted for another weapon/class)

milranduil
May 31, 2019, 01:14 PM
There should be another filter in place with different requirements. This way you can have the people who like to solo stuff at the top of the chain and the mid tier players on the middle with 4 players trial quests requirements and the low tier at the bottom.

this is again projecting the idea that everyone who passes current expert is some tryhard solo elite player which is simply not the case at all. by introducing an additional layer, you will still get people complaining, just this time it will be "i'm good enough for tier2, i shouldn't be stuck at the bottom" and "why is tier2 so trash, i'm good enough for tier1" etc. the whole point of removing old expert is that the 4p trial requirement isn't a requirement at all. you find 1-3 other players to carry you and that's it, you're in.

practice

For Mother/Deus, I only switch after a pet dies. They due rarely unless I'm not paying attention, and Synchro for me has seemed lackluster. Even after switching into it after a pillow throws , I hardly see how his ability even ups his dps ( He's 130 to boot with candybox filled).

I have tried combing him over and over but I don't see any increase to dps either. ):-(

along with the combos people mentioned above me, try using rykros staff with synchro. the megid spam adds up very quickly with the PA rotations

LordKaiser
May 31, 2019, 01:42 PM
this is again projecting the idea that everyone who passes current expert is some tryhard solo elite player which is simply not the case at all. by introducing an additional layer, you will still get people complaining, just this time it will be "i'm good enough for tier2, i shouldn't be stuck at the bottom" and "why is tier2 so trash, i'm good enough for tier1" etc. the whole point of removing old expert is that the 4p trial requirement isn't a requirement at all. you find 1-3 other players to carry you and that's it, you're in.

practice




I don't care if there will be people still complaining, what I care is that it solves a immediate problem. If they don't like tier 2 then they will move to the final tier but at least they will have a better experience even if they're tsundere about it.

milranduil
May 31, 2019, 01:45 PM
I don't care if there will be people still complaining, what I care is that it solves a immediate problem. If they don't like tier 2 then they will move to the final tier but at least they will have a better experience even if they're tsundere about it.

let's take a closer look at that
If they don't like tier 2 then they will move to the final tier
If they don't like non-expert then they will move to expert
your own logic

Z-0
May 31, 2019, 01:54 PM
I have nothing to add except that since these expert requirements are supposedly bad at gauging a players' skill level since it's not "varied" enough, we should change the expert requirement to Endless Loner since that requires a very broad set of knowledge and skills.

Maybe even Forever (I don't have this yet though, only just started playing again).

Zephyrion
May 31, 2019, 02:07 PM
I have nothing to add except that since these expert requirements are supposedly bad at gauging a players' skill level since it's not "varied" enough, we should change the expert requirement to Endless Loner since that requires a very broad set of knowledge and skills.

Maybe even Forever (I don't have this yet though, only just started playing again).

Endless Loner brings the problem that it ranges from being a relatively trivial matter to an actual prowess depending on the class you play. Some classes are just naturally better or worse at endless. basically it would heavily reward anyone playing GU while fucking other classes or making it a lot harder to clear/route for them.

I actually think those requirements are fine. solo XQ is very lenient on the time requirement, but asks of you to deal with high damage enemy and dodge their value reliably (which will probably will be more and more needed in UH given the damage ramp up that's happening), while Mamadeus is more of a test about how to get good DPS with any class you play (having remotely relevant gear while knowing good DPS rotations, knowing to deal with both static and mobile targets). Also, unlike Endless, RNG doesn't play a part in this, and for this kind of "test", the more static the quest, the better

wssh
May 31, 2019, 02:17 PM
I have nothing to add except that since these expert requirements are supposedly bad at gauging a players' skill level since it's not "varied" enough, we should change the expert requirement to Endless Loner since that requires a very broad set of knowledge and skills.

Maybe even Forever (I don't have this yet though, only just started playing again).

This man is a tyrant. 😤

vantpers
May 31, 2019, 02:23 PM
I have nothing to add except that since these expert requirements are supposedly bad at gauging a players' skill level since it's not "varied" enough, we should change the expert requirement to Endless Loner since that requires a very broad set of knowledge and skills.

Maybe even Forever (I don't have this yet though, only just started playing again).
Forever expert would be quite something. Can really see that one MPA during peak JP hours composed of Gunner and Hero mains. Average quality of non-expert pug would also skyrocket.

LordKaiser
May 31, 2019, 03:10 PM
let's take a closer look at that
If they don't like tier 2 then they will move to the final tier
If they don't like non-expert then they will move to expert
your own logic Yeah but with a extra tier, It's necessary as the previous expert was decent. They can always make obligatory to complete the trials in EX quests.

dont_talk_to_me
May 31, 2019, 03:14 PM
The previous expert was trash. Hail sega for making the correction decision. If you are struggling with expert, just do the quests. It's not hard.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 03:32 PM
To everyone saying "The new Expert Requirements are not hard", do you realize that you are implying that by them being easy, then pretty much everyone can (or should be able to complete them), and therefore your Expert mpas are (or would be) filled with people who deal like 5% of your dps?

Either the requirements are not easy, or you simply belong to the 10%-20% of the playerbase that can currently complete the requirements. Pick which side of the discussion you are on.

dont_talk_to_me
May 31, 2019, 03:40 PM
To everyone saying "The new Expert Requirements are not hard", do you realize that you are implying that by them being easy, then pretty much everyone can (or should be able to complete them), and therefore your Expert mpas are (or would be) filled with people who deal like 5% of your dps?

Either the requirements are not easy, or you simply belong to the 10%-20% of the playerbase that can currently complete the requirements. Pick which side of the discussion you are on.

Incorrection, difficulty is a relative and not an absolute. What is easy for some isn't easy for others.



With that out of the way, this requirement is objectively easy. The average skill level of this game is just looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 03:53 PM
With that out of the way, this requirement is objectively easy. The average skill level of this game is just looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.1) So why aren't 95%+ of players Experts?
2) If it is easy and 95%+ of players can and will unlock it within, say June, then what is the purpose of Expert matching? To block 2-3% of players?
3) If difficulty is relative and not an absolute, then how is it possible for something objectively easy to exist? Either difficulty is absolute, or something cannot be objectively easy/hard.

AVO
May 31, 2019, 04:11 PM
1) So why aren't 95%+ of players Experts?
2) If it is easy and 95%+ of players can and will unlock it within, say June, then what is the purpose of Expert matching? To block 2-3% of players?
3) If difficulty is relative and not an absolute, then how is it possible for something objectively easy to exist? Either difficulty is absolute, or something cannot be objectively easy/hard.

1) Because they are frankly speaking, pretty bad at the game.
2) To block idiots that cant even bother to cheese it. The bar is so low and yet people are complaining so much. Its not even asking people to do sub 4min runs on solo xq and sub 9 on GoC.
3) IDK. Do you think jumping over a 10cm bar is hard? Compared to not even jumping in the first place like the previous requirements. LMAO

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 04:27 PM
1) Because they are frankly speaking, pretty bad at the game.
2) To block idiots that cant even bother to cheese it. The bar is so low and yet people are complaining so much. Its not even asking people to do sub 4min runs on solo xq and sub 9 on GoC.
3) IDK. Do you think jumping over a 10cm bar is hard? Compared to not even jumping in the first place like the previous requirements. LMAO1) If everyone is good at something, noone is good. Expanding the sentence before, if everyone is good at something (for example everyone is at 90%+ of max performer), then the good ones are those at 95%-100% of peak performance, while those at 90%-95% are bad, assuming that we split the good from the bad in the middle.

2) If something can be cheesed, doesn't that mean that the test fails its purpose?
Would you like to have people who cheesed the requirements in your mpa, and drag it down with them performing at like 10% of you?
What if people do not want to cheese it but instead want to beat something like decent human beings?

3) For an adult human who is not suffering from some condition, it is not hard. Your question is not exactly on point, here's a more fitting question:
Do you think running 100m in 13 seconds is hard?

zangechan
May 31, 2019, 04:59 PM
I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p

Sometimes, I wake up and wonder if my gear is too low, with only 150 attack on my units, when I've seen people with 200 attack on their units still fail to clear solo momdad, and then I read this. I've done literally the worst fucking ideas possible in hopes of not s-ranking momdad, things you witness before your death. I have no idea what on Gay Satan's Gay Earth thats causing you to get one shot in deus when there is a skill that nullifies the whole aspect of getting one shot if your pet isn't malnourished like a Soylent drinkers who couldn't open their new-type bottle top. You can also just Rappy dunk everything and still srank it.

Flatflyer
May 31, 2019, 05:00 PM
As someone who has completed both expert conditions, I'll say that I still dont really think the current requirements are really a great way to tell a player's skill, especially for all of the classes.

Mother and Deus is honestly fine with me, its a bit more DPS oriented (as is most of the game I guess) but the main thing is that you can just run back in if you make a mistake and die.

Meanwhile in solo XQ, if you mess up even once on anything like Deus or Hunar, you're pretty screwed and have to start all 5 stages all over again. a complete restart from a single death is honestly stupid and doesnt resemble anything else in this game (other than a few rematch EQs which have a death limit, but those seem to have been done away with recently) because in literally any other situation if someone goes down, all I (or someone else) has to do is just press the button for a moon atomizer, an animation which takes less than a second and theyre back up right away. Theres no point in punishing death in expert req content if it isnt even punished in the "real" game in the first place In addition, this is a more small thing but full on focused aggro is rarely a thing someone is going to have to deal with in any situation in this game unless they're running something like war cry/brave hunter, so personally I feel solo content with groups of enemies focused onto you doesnt really represent any actual game content well either.

Ultimately, the largest issue is that stuff like solo XQ is biased more towards certain classes and others struggle more just due to how they're built, the comparison between a Hero trying to do solo XQ and a Techer trying to do solo XQ is vastly different, especially if the techer player has their kit set up to be more supportively focused instead of solo damage capability. I think having different "expert missions" for each individual class type would work a whole lot better for this, since it could test players to ensure that they know exactly what theyre doing with that class specifically.

AVO
May 31, 2019, 05:02 PM
1) If everyone is good at something, noone is good. Expanding the sentence before, if everyone is good at something (for example everyone is at 90%+ of max performer), then the good ones are those at 95%-100% of peak performance, while those at 90%-95% are bad, assuming that we split the good from the bad in the middle.

2) If something can be cheesed, doesn't that mean that the test fails its purpose?
Would you like to have people who cheesed the requirements in your mpa, and drag it down with them performing at like 10% of you?
What if people do not want to cheese it but instead want to beat something like decent human beings?

3) For an adult human who is not suffering from some condition, it is not hard. Your question is not exactly on point, here's a more fitting question:
Do you think running 100m in 13 seconds is hard?

1) Ok, your point?

2) So your point is because the requirement is shit and hardly represent the proper skill level, that means sega shouldnt bother implementing it? Some people cheat in schools and qualifying exams and get away with it so does that mean we abolish the entire schooling/certificate system? If people dont want to bother cheesing it and want to beat it properly then go ahead and do it properly then. In fact, i have seen doing people that and isnt complaining about the harshness of the requirement and just practice their way to s rank so whats the problem here?

3) 100m in 13seconds is hard for me now. But that equivalent to that in pso2 is endless 1 lap imo so...

Seriously, the mental gymnastic people are doing to justify expert requirement as some impossible feat or omega unfair DaRk SoUlS is hilarious.

We are at the age of 15* weps, tradable actual decent 14* potential matching with 15* weps, rappy shine,handout hp armour phobos, guardian armour s1/2/3, tons of video doing sub 5runs on soloxq on way worse weps, tryhard sub 9 or meme runs like overend spam on goc and yet people still want to complain about it being hard and bitch paragraphs about it instead of taking it in stride and just treat it as a one time you actually need to learn to play the game. But i guess the bare minimum of 10 cm bar is really hard in year 2019 i guess.

dont_talk_to_me
May 31, 2019, 05:06 PM
Punishing dying is important, because we have gone face tank as is. It doesn't have to emulate actual content. How much of degree and masters level mathematics emulate real life? The whole point of the test is to almost 'over' prepare you for content. I still do not understand; why are people treating expert as something that allows you to access content others cannot? I'm getting tired of saying this, but expert is a match method and everyone who can fulfill the requirements for it get to play together. Why is this hard to understand? It doesn't have to represent anything in the game because all it has to do is measure your competency. Your competency in solo goes hand in hand with performance in other types of content; there is a correlation there.

And seriously, who the fuck cares? This is a casual game, proven by the fact that the only requirement for every piece of content in the game is that you have the prerequisite level. It's almost as lenient as you can get for a lobby based MMO.

dont_talk_to_me
May 31, 2019, 05:11 PM
I seemingly can't do enough damage to finish Mother/Deus, let alone S-rank. My SuFi took over 17 mins to beat just Mother. 2x Pillow throwing, Synchro and Torim 14*s (The Higher Atki byrd, whatever it's called) and I was still struggling to do enough to break the arms in 1 Alter Ego. I feel like they gave the bosses 40-50+ milion HP each cuz I hardly dented Mother when she was downed.

As for Solo, the 1st boss spams attacks and I waste more than half my time trying not to get injsta-wiped by whatever Deus does. I use SuFI for this as well w/ Rykros Staff and 14 pets minus Rappy which is 13*.

I feel like people have no less than 6-7k attack on their characters and 7-8s affixes, soloing these 2 runs with ease. :p

Literally just to prove a point to some knuckleheads, I got the entire expert requirement unitless in about 20 minutes. Completely improvised, pretty much as a dare. My attack at that point had to be less than 4000, and yet I did mom/deus in about 14 minutes and the solo XQ in about 4. My weapons weren't anything special either; atra ex with 65 atk and a lightstream with 120 attack. Nothing extreme, and nothing like that god tier 300 attack units you people seem to imagine everyone but you has.

the_importer_
May 31, 2019, 05:22 PM
1) If everyone is good at something, noone is good. Expanding the sentence before, if everyone is good at something (for example everyone is at 90%+ of max performer), then the good ones are those at 95%-100% of peak performance, while those at 90%-95% are bad, assuming that we split the good from the bad in the middle.

2) If something can be cheesed, doesn't that mean that the test fails its purpose?
Would you like to have people who cheesed the requirements in your mpa, and drag it down with them performing at like 10% of you?
What if people do not want to cheese it but instead want to beat something like decent human beings?

3) For an adult human who is not suffering from some condition, it is not hard. Your question is not exactly on point, here's a more fitting question:
Do you think running 100m in 13 seconds is hard?

Perfect picture to go along with what you're saying:

[spoiler-box]https://78.media.tumblr.com/3c437894a23381c8bdb41fcca2c97ebe/tumblr_inline_oougqlRbds1upxhvj_500.gif[/spoiler-box]

vantpers
May 31, 2019, 05:36 PM
Meanwhile in solo XQ, if you mess up even once on anything like Deus or Hunar, you're pretty screwed and have to start all 5 stages all over again. a complete restart from a single death is honestly stupid and doesnt resemble anything else in this game (other than a few rematch EQs which have a death limit, but those seem to have been done away with recently) because in literally any other situation if someone goes down, all I (or someone else) has to do is just press the button for a moon atomizer, an animation which takes less than a second and theyre back up right away. Theres no point in punishing death in expert req content if it isnt even punished in the "real" game in the first place In addition, this is a more small thing but full on focused aggro is rarely a thing someone is going to have to deal with in any situation in this game unless they're running something like war cry/brave hunter, so personally I feel solo content with groups of enemies focused onto you doesnt really represent any actual game content well either.

Fair point. We should implement more challenging content just add more natural death limit there by nerfing moon atomizers. I find it plenty stupid that when dying starts mattering all the skills like Reversal Field or atomizer production mag skills stop mattering and you might as well go to campship.Of course then we need a rebalance because suddenly an immortal build which does 20% less DPS might become the most braindead meta yet, but it's not like automate isn't doing fine outside of UH and even there.

Honestly I am tired of everyone and their mother wanting faster runs. People who are mediocre at the game by the definition of being the 50th percentile of player base or close get shafted out of expert and they complain that runs aren't as fast as they used to be and their precious triboost is running out and he has to be there next to 20th percentile player who's a horrible leech and etc. People who are in expert now still complain that the expert isn't good enough cause one time they ran each sector of armada once or only double dipped S1. At least the most casual of players sit quiet since their situation could've changed only for the better.

I am not having fun because Armada is still flashy and with little substance EQ where you're mindlessly killing whatever spawns and then dashing to the new spawn before even special effect density drops to visible levels. Even the AIS Vega boss fight is criminally short considering you can start it around :20 and should have 40 more minutes to play around.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 05:50 PM
1) Ok, your point?My point is that if noone can be good, then noone can be bad. Ergo your initial point was moot.


2) So your point is because the requirement is shit and hardly represent the proper skill level, that means sega shouldnt bother implementing it? Some people cheat in schools and qualifying exams and get away with it so does that mean we abolish the entire schooling/certificate system? If people dont want to bother cheesing it and want to beat it properly then go ahead and do it properly then. In fact, i have seen doing people that and isnt complaining about the harshness of the requirement and just practice their way to s rank so whats the problem here?If school exams could be cheated to the degree that people claim that the Expert reqs can be cheesed, then you should be sure the school exam system would have changed after 1 iteration. Similarily, Sega saw that the initial Expert Reqs were not really doing their intended role, and so they changed them to something more fitting of their vision. They will again revise it, possibly in EP7 when the QQ about low-geared and low-performing people in Expert mpas becomes prominent again.

Also, I am not complaining about the harshness of the current reqs. In fact, I have complained in the past that the game does not test players enough, and that it only tests reflexes when it should also test memorization and resource management. If you can find that I have asked for more lenient requirements, please show my post and I will accept that I am a two-talking snake. What I am complaining about is the treatment of non-expert players as some form of inferior life species from some forumers.

I support the idea of better players acquiring better loot and at faster pace. In fact I support the idea of loot coming from cutting edge content like Deep Depths in Persona UQ, or massive scores in Endless, which would outperform equipment dropping in latest EQ or CF. This could even come in the form of titles, for example extra HP/Atk when reaching a milestone etc (like the class lvl75 t


3) 100m in 13seconds is hard for me now. But that equivalent to that in pso2 is endless 1 lap imo so...But not for everyone. In fact it's expected to be faster than 13sec at 100m dash if you are simply fit, without even being an athlete. Age plays a factor of course, as well as what type of exercise you do. Which is not really that much different from the situation we are discussing now. If someone possesses the physical and mental state that is required for reflexes, and after undergoing sufficient training, they can fulfill the requirements. What is overestimated by people who claim that Expert Reqs are easy is how many people actually do posses that physical and mental state.


We are at the age of 15* weps, tradable actual decent 14* potential matching with 15* weps, rappy shine,handout hp armour phobos, guardian armour s1/2/3, tons of video doing sub 5runs on soloxq on way worse weps, tryhard sub 9 or meme runs like overend spam on goc and yet people still want to complain about it being hard and bitch paragraphs about it instead of taking it in stride and just treat it as a one time you actually need to learn to play the game. But i guess the bare minimum of 10 cm bar is really hard in year 2019 i guess.If people did what you say and actually achieved this goal, then you (plural) would "increase" the height of the bar up to the point where it becomes impossible for you (plural) to surpass it as well. It's the same old thing I see in online games which is summarized in: "Everyone worse than me is a noob, everyone better than me has no life".


And seriously, who the fuck cares? This is a casual game, proven by the fact that the only requirement for every piece of content in the game is that you have the prerequisite level. It's almost as lenient as you can get for a lobby based MMO.This pretty much is the best quote and thread closer for this discussion.


Perfect picture to go along with what you're saying:[spoiler-box]https://78.media.tumblr.com/3c437894a23381c8bdb41fcca2c97ebe/tumblr_inline_oougqlRbds1upxhvj_500.gif[/spoiler-box]Exactly. It's not some sort of wisdom or mental gymnastics; it's pure logic.

bhaal
May 31, 2019, 05:54 PM
Can some one tell me what I'm doing wrong?

[spoiler-box]https://i.imgur.com/jtaN4zK.png[/spoiler-box]


What need next?

vantpers
May 31, 2019, 06:00 PM
Can some one tell me what I'm doing wrong?
What need next?
Latest solo XQ (Phanatical Phantoms or so it was translated I think), S rank.

LordKaiser
May 31, 2019, 06:15 PM
Why people think I'm complaining about expert reqs? All I want is another filter so there can be people in the middle so they can finish their quests well and get the gear that they need. Adding this would not hinder anyone who is currently on expert as not everyone enjoys long battles in solo quests.

AVO
May 31, 2019, 06:36 PM
My point is that if noone can be good, then noone can be bad. Ergo your initial point was moot.

If school exams could be cheated to the degree that people claim that the Expert reqs can be cheesed, then you should be sure the school exam system would have changed after 1 iteration. Similarily, Sega saw that the initial Expert Reqs were not really doing their intended role, and so they changed them to something more fitting of their vision. They will again revise it, possibly in EP7 when the QQ about low-geared and low-performing people in Expert mpas becomes prominent again.

Also, I am not complaining about the harshness of the current reqs. In fact, I have complained in the past that the game does not test players enough, and that it only tests reflexes when it should also test memorization and resource management. If you can find that I have asked for more lenient requirements, please show my post and I will accept that I am a two-talking snake. What I am complaining about is the treatment of non-expert players as some form of inferior life species from some forumers.

I support the idea of better players acquiring better loot and at faster pace. In fact I support the idea of loot coming from cutting edge content like Deep Depths in Persona UQ, or massive scores in Endless, which would outperform equipment dropping in latest EQ or CF. This could even come in the form of titles, for example extra HP/Atk when reaching a milestone etc (like the class lvl75 t

But not for everyone. In fact it's expected to be faster than 13sec at 100m dash if you are simply fit, without even being an athlete. Age plays a factor of course, as well as what type of exercise you do. Which is not really that much different from the situation we are discussing now. If someone possesses the physical and mental state that is required for reflexes, and after undergoing sufficient training, they can fulfill the requirements. What is overestimated by people who claim that Expert Reqs are easy is how many people actually do posses that physical and mental state.

If people did what you say and actually achieved this goal, then you (plural) would "increase" the height of the bar up to the point where it becomes impossible for you (plural) to surpass it as well. It's the same old thing I see in online games which is summarized in: "Everyone worse than me is a noob, everyone better than me has no life".

This pretty much is the best quote and thread closer for this discussion.

Exactly. It's not some sort of wisdom or mental gymnastics; it's pure logic.

Cheese is a strat. Except this time, the cheese require slightly more effort to execute compared to you can afk and stand in a corner like the previous 0 effort req. My problem is you and others thinking this cheese is equivalent to cheating and thus because of it expert req should be abolished. Solo xq and goc does test memorization by the mere fact that they didnt rng visual and sound cues. There is hardly any resource management in pso2 itself except for special cases weps like bow and partizan. And idk about you but all your suggestions for how expert should be implemented is way easier but i guess its not asking directly to make it easier.

The last time i ran 100m is probably 10 years ago so obviously i didnt give you a direct answer. And i did get a physical injury during that 10 years so whatever. I don't think its overestimation when we are doing a 1 year old quest with way better equipment and class balance to the point you can brute force it unlike endless where you cant 1 lap it through brute force even with gufi(controversial statement i know). This overestimation of skill requirement to clear expert req can be said the same for you.

Maybe the time will come where expert req will take me more than 1 day to clear. BUT at least i have a goal to work towards instead of lmao just rng some shitty drops 'goal' and bitch and whine about how hard the requirement is and ask for nerfs/quit game like some of the forum users/outsiders. I burned 50+ passes to get day 1 clear when it was just released and i will do it again because i hate my life.

P.S My stance on expert is i actually dont really care but my god the amount of complaints about it just make me want to shoot a few comments about it.

Shinamori
May 31, 2019, 07:20 PM
You know, you guys could watch videos on Youtube? That's how I passed it. As for mother/daddy. Take weak drink. Especially if you're a tech class. Meat Stir Fry helps too.

Dark Mits
May 31, 2019, 07:32 PM
My problem is you and others thinking this cheese is equivalent to cheating and thus because of it expert req should be abolished.75% correct.
a) As you correctly say, I do consider cheesing to be a form of cheating, but that is tied to class/build balance. In the case that class balance cannot be achieved, then different tests have to be implemented for each class. I was supportive of the idea of another forum poster for Advanced Class Training specialized for each class respectively, and not just "click this to make this happen".
b) I support the abolishment of Expert Matching but for an entirely different reason; I am a strong believer that any form of player segregation should come from player themselves and not from automated tools. People should choose themselves who they play with, and not have it done by some tool, because as it is obvious in this case the tool doesn't do a good enough job. However, the guruguru playstyle of the game has cuddled us into not wanting to go the extra mile of organizing a run, especially when the worst that can happen is for a run to take double time, which is for most players by far a much better outcome than having to spend 1 hour beforehand to organize just an EQ run; 1 hour during which they could be enjoying the game.


The last time i ran 100m is probably 10 years ago so obviously i didnt give you a direct answer. And i did get a physical injury during that 10 years so whatever. I don't think its overestimation when we are doing a 1 year old quest with way better equipment and class balance to the point you can brute force it unlike endless where you cant 1 lap it through brute force even with gufi(controversial statement i know). This overestimation of skill requirement to clear expert req can be said the same for you.My best run was 13.8sec about 15 years ago. Trainer then told me it was just a bit below average for my physique. Right now I'll definitely need over 25. But conversely, the speed at which I can type on a keyboard has doubled.

Without veering offtopic, my point is that we may be getting better equipment that allow for more mistakes and for more damage per action which reduces time spent in the XQ, but reflexes cannot really be improved substantially regardless of how much training you undergo; in fact it is accepted that they deteriorate as you age. You can have 20* equipment and 9999HP; if you need more than 1 second to react to enemy attacks you will still fail. And there is nothing wrong with that. At best you can hope for memorization to substitute reflexes by learning what enemy action will follow up, but even this can only help so much when combined with enemy randomness

Finally, the Expert reqs assume that people play solo with 3/7/11 other NPCs. It does not test coordination. It does not test if the player can react quickly to a teammate needing Sol/Anti or Resta/Star or Moon/Reverser. It does not test if a player can change their playstyle to take advantage of buff fields from BO or from an existing Zanverse. And other such cases which have proved to be not just equal, but even more important for smooth runs.

vantpers
May 31, 2019, 07:58 PM
75% correct.
Without veering offtopic, my point is that we may be getting better equipment that allow for more mistakes and for more damage per action which reduces time spent in the XQ, but reflexes cannot really be improved substantially regardless of how much training you undergo; in fact it is accepted that they deteriorate as you age. You can have 20* equipment and 9999HP; if you need more than 1 second to react to enemy attacks you will still fail. And there is nothing wrong with that. At best you can hope for memorization to substitute reflexes by learning what enemy action will follow up, but even this can only help so much when combined with enemy randomness
.

Raw reflex doesn't matter in the game outside of a selected few situations, like instant Masquerade moves, which you can predict and pre-emptively dodge because he has to combo them from something. Rest of everything has tells well beyond 0.5 second long, even if you account for not being immediately able to recognize the attack animation. Bottom of human reflexes without actual impairment is somewhere around 0.4 or so raw. The real problem is choice reaction. Humans get confused and react much slower when they are presented with something like having to press the button whose colour appears on screen on similar. Complicated responses are much slower than basic reaction to stimuli, be it visual, audio or touch. Complicated response time can be more effectively shortened by training though.

90% of action games isn't really about having above average reflexes, but merely drilling the proper responses so you stop thinking of what action to perform and start reacting. Sekiro was the game where I tested it myself the most. First run I was getting absolutely destroyed by perilous attacks which you had to dodge with the proper response unlike normal ones, but on NG+ nearly all perilous attacks became counter fodder for me, all because I stopped looking at the sign and thinking whether I should jump or dodge forward or dodge to the side. I just knew what it will be.

You can even add onto it other stuff like experience with boss patterns letting you see more than merely connecting tell with attack animation, but rather pay attention to attacks that are on cooldown after use, some more sophisticated ways bosses combo their attacks, Deus alternating between swiping hand and punching in his torso phase with other attacks between. A lot of things that aren't related to raw horsepower of your neutral pathways help you react to fast attack or slow you down when trying to react to something that's actually pretty slow. You shouldn't really pay that much attention to reaction time below 40 years old.

It's all pretty offtopic but eh, I like talking about reaction times and their effect on performance and similar.

Maninbluejumpsuit
May 31, 2019, 08:28 PM
I'm being sincere when I say this; I don't get the complaints.
We've been told months ago what the requirements are. 15*s, and 12* units were basically given out before this.
I met the requirements for the solo with a 13* fornis and 11* austere before level cap increase in the first week the solo came out.
I don't think I'm a ninja, and I'm damn sure I'm not ponthi.
What's with the complaints? People have it easier now than I did.

SteveCZ
May 31, 2019, 08:50 PM
For those who haven't passed or those who think this expert requirement should be removed, you really don't have to expand the definition of current expert requirement to justify whether you are bad or good, or whether this req is easy or hard, tbh. If you aren't satisfied, just keep trying to pass the req cause the fact is right now you need to clear it.

Practice means you have to do it tons of times, not just failing 10 times and then say you are "bad" then leave it at that. Dedicate yourself a bit, accept yourself that you are still not that good. That acceptance will give you lots of room to improve. Swallow your ego and start clearing it.

I propose someone to create a walkthrough thread called "How to Pass Current Expert Requirement" which I think is more productive, where people can post videos or specific tricks to help those who really want to pass the requirement, cause I still see people purely eager to clear it but still struggle to deal with it but without complaining. (I'm lazy to make one, luls)

Expert requirement itself is nothing but technical issue which can be solved in individual manner. So rather than that, I'm more worried on the social impact to those who got non-expert and expert friends which I believe is a more complicated issue. I honestly don't know how many casual teams/groups that might have already been broken further cause of this, and I'm not just talking about english community here. However this is further off topic to this thread.

on topic...


I had my first run with a friend who wasnt expert, and we had 4 runs total(sector 1 done twice). From what I have seen from other experts, the average to expect is 2/2/1, so we missed only 1 run. If so, non-expert doesnt seem too bad.
Hopefully I can get home early today to do an expert run and see difference for myself.



I did a non-expert run and still got 2-1-1. Most of that was because I had a hard time getti_(:3


Okay so non-expert and expert pug matches are 1-3 runs difference as far as I see. Also, being able to run 2x sector 1 is more than I expected on non-expert matches, so I don't see why someone or some people complain how this armada EQ is not well-designed for non-expert. =/



Up until they actually put limits on them all eqs were like that.

Yeah I removed my reply that says "Remember when sega decided to gate the number of EQ runs? Some of us don't like it." I mean, if we can run the EQ faster than anyone else which our reward is getting more drops, why should we be gated? I know their mitigation is economy issue towards the drops, but blaming us for playing faster instead of their failed content like Magatsu that can be easily cheesed was just... silly.

AnikaSteinberg
May 31, 2019, 10:02 PM
The way players always throw the argument "but what about Techer" as the prime example of the "bad design" of various expert requirements is actually quite disturbing tbh.

ZerotakerZX
May 31, 2019, 11:03 PM
The way players always throw the argument "but what about Techer" as the prime example of the "bad design" of various expert requirements is actually quite disturbing tbh.
Yes, xpert reqs are solely solo experience, and some classes are better at soloing, than the others.

dont_talk_to_me
May 31, 2019, 11:29 PM
Yes, xpert reqs are solely solo experience, and some classes are better at soloing, than the others.

Except, we are just trying to clear expert requirements, not compete for the fastest clear time. You don't they have been set with the consideration of techer? The class is not as weak as people think; hell even a pure support build te/ra cleared, there is pretty much no excuse based on the games mechanics. Just because some classes have it easier, it doesn't invalidate the stated requirements. The best example I can think of is hunter. Hunter excels solo, and relatively speaking, does much better with its solo kit than it does with it's MPA kit. Does that mean every hunter who has cleared expert got carried by class? Or does it really just not matter?

Reilet
May 31, 2019, 11:56 PM
All I see is people not willing to put in time and effort. :wacko:

GHNeko
Jun 1, 2019, 01:41 AM
what is even the complaint right now

this thread has been absolute nonsense and just ???? for the full 2 pages.

stipz
Jun 1, 2019, 01:55 AM
The thing about expert mode requirements is that
most of the game is in Easy to SH tier difficulty to roughly surmise.
let's just say it's at 95% of the content and the remaining 5% is the actual expert-plays

what's the 5%?
the kind of content that people do; albeit the min-maxers; challenges like beating Phaleg in less than 10s, Solo XQs, Solo EQ runs, etc.
these are the kind of people who are hardcore players willing to pour time and resources for improvement.

Me? even If managed to get the said decent or above average gears, it's useless without proper execution.
I'm not in expert mode, I'm not complaining, personally my hands (injury) and reflexes are shit to even be able to complete the XQs so not gonna bother
and that's not the kind of skill requirement that made me play this game for 5 years.
I've accepted the fact that I'll be separated from the expert-unlocked players, with that said, I haven't experienced arduously terrible runs on non-expert so far.

Mattykins
Jun 1, 2019, 04:37 AM
I think the core of the problem isn't so much the expert mode itself, but more that it's needed at all. This game does a pretty bad job of teaching people how to play. You get your class, and you get your tree, and the game is pretty much 'have fun' without giving much direction, as opposed to, say, FFXIV, which feeds you your class abilities in a fixed, logical order so you learn it one bit at a time.

Doesn't help that these days the pre-endgame is just shoving players through to level cap as fast as possible with constant boosts. It's the video game equivalent of that guy at the theme park that doesn't actually check if the kid is tall enough to ride before strapping him in :T

Stormwalker
Jun 1, 2019, 04:44 AM
For what it's worth, the group I was in tonight seemed to have a much better handle on things than the first couple of times I ran it. We did actually get two Sector 1 runs, at least, which was good enough to get some of the drop bonus - and lo and behold, I actually got good drops tonight.. This actually alleviates a lot of my concerns about the EQ, since it demonstrates that it is within the reach of non-expert MPA's to benefit from the drop bonus.

Of course, I also completed half of the expert match unlock tonight, and expect to knock the other half out soon (since the one I finished tonight was the one I had more trouble with previously)... but that doesn't change my opinion that getting decent loot needs to be accessible to non-expert groups as well as expert groups.

dont_talk_to_me
Jun 1, 2019, 05:43 AM
I seriously don't know what the fuck you are talking about dude and frankly I'm getting concerned. The 'XTRAH LUUT' isn't even grossly significant from getting more armada runs. And Armada at the moment is the literal only content that facilitates this. At the end of the day it is all still RNG. I've seen people get 5 15*s from armada while I haven't gotten 1 and guess what? I'm in expert. Any content where speed allows for more runs which in turn allows for more loot is simply RNG since being in expert doesn't all of a sudden guarantee that you are getting 5 runs of sector 1 and 17 of sector 2.

Actually let's directly tackle your argument. What would actually make getting decent loot needs to be accessible to non-expert groups as well as expert groups a thing? Should they just tell everyone to eat pant and cap the runs like they did magatsu? Should they just remove expert so Edward cripplehands has a chance to get lucky and party up with Ponthi? How is that fair on those who are better? In fact, what about TMPAs? Isn't it unfair that knowing players and having a team/group of friends that are skilled allows you to get more runs than randomly joining? I really cannot make heads or tails of your argument, because it makes no sense; expert doesn't affect what you can play, it just changes who you play with.

XrosBlader821
Jun 1, 2019, 06:44 AM
Yeah but with a extra tier, It's necessary as the previous expert was decent. They can always make obligatory to complete the trials in EX quests.

Adding an extra tier will split the player base even further and wouldn't change the people wanting to be in the highest tier anyway.
This isn't LoL where there are enough players for half a dozen Tiers.


Yes, xpert reqs are solely solo experience, and some classes are better at soloing, than the others.

This is funny to me because you're talking to someone who clears solo XQ in 4 minutes on Te/Ph and almost a year ago cleared it in 6 and a half minutes on Te/Fi. The Point of Anika's message was that even Te can do it. You don't need a Class that's amazing at Solo Content to beat this quest under 12 Minutes.

Meteor Weapon
Jun 1, 2019, 07:17 AM
You guys are just making yourself hard for not getting expert and then complaining about it here. Seriously...go get expert and just stop whining continuously, it doesn't matter how much you rage about how flawed the requirements and "EXPERT" itself it wouldn't change anything. SEGA gave you all the tools you needed for the past few months to get expert, unless you are new or a returning player there's just no excuse. Learn your class. Cheese it if you have to, there's nothing wrong with cheesing an enemy's AI unless you're dumb enough not to dodge Deus's bamboo sprout missles in XQ solo

Yurashina
Jun 1, 2019, 08:15 AM
This whole post going to a nonsense since most of guys here which can't get expert said "i have gear ready", "i can do guides now in 18 mins with LS sword", "expert it's elitism tier", "we're not leeching", "it's to hard",... :Seriously?

You all keep to say it but: did you haven't made a try to improve yourself? did you check out how to play correctly? Did you learn one time how to play your class or even how to play pso2 base?

If you keep on that way, youwill never improve, not even getting better and be worse than shit on floor.

Also, while you keep to think you're "good", there still peoples which get expert in less than 50 hours (game time) with the minimum in their hand.

Try to think about it and stop to talk of nonsenses or just leave the game already.

Feel free to pollute me if you're raging, i will accept it with pleasure.

Terrence
Jun 1, 2019, 08:29 AM
This whole post going to a nonsense since most of guys here which can't get expert said "i have gear ready", "i can do guides now in 18 mins with LS sword", "expert it's elitism tier", "we're not leeching", "it's to hard",... :Seriously?
You all keep to say it but: did you haven't made a try to improve yourself? did you check out how to play correctly? Did you learn one time how to play your class or even how to play pso2 base?
If you keep on that way, youwill never improve, not even getting better and be worse than shit on floor.
Also, while you keep to think you're "good", there still peoples which get expert in less than 50 hours (game time) with the minimum in their hand.
Try to think about it and stop to talk of nonsenses or just leave the game already.
Feel free to pollute me if you're raging, i will accept it with pleasure.
I have failed to get the Expert Mode requirements for months. Maybe that's beause of my ineptitude (as you imply) or maybe that's because of my incurable bradykinesia/bradypsyche. In any case, thank you to avoid making general considerations claiming people who keep failing just don't want to get better. I don't have my place in Expert Mode and I accept it. But I do not accept to be called a lazybones. Because it's not true.

the_importer_
Jun 1, 2019, 08:31 AM
Said it before and I'll say it again, this is a fucking game meant to bring profit at the end of the day. They did this to shut-up a vocal minority, but it they see in the near future that it's affecting their bottom-line, then they'll change it again and again until they find the perfect balance or keep the most revenues and if this means loosing that vocal minority in the process, then this will be it.

stipz
Jun 1, 2019, 11:42 AM
For what it's worth, the group I was in tonight seemed to have a much better handle on things than the first couple of times I ran it. We did actually get two Sector 1 runs, at least, which was good enough to get some of the drop bonus - and lo and behold, I actually got good drops tonight.. This actually alleviates a lot of my concerns about the EQ, since it demonstrates that it is within the reach of non-expert MPA's to benefit from the drop bonus.

Give it a bit of time for players to learn the EQ. If you feel that non-experts in your ship are below your standards, then you might want to jump to another ship instead of complaining, the EQs can be done by non-experts it's probably not to your standards on how fast it is cleared because we're not on expert mode, but pugs here in ship04 can do 2 UH runs in both sector 1 and 2
Getting 2 runs on sector 2 is rare though, but didn't seem impossible for pugs I've been with,
MPAs would improve as we do more of the EQ and its sector rotations.

just like what some have mentioned here;
having a properly or even above-average affixed equipment doesn't immediately translate to combat capability if the execution is poor.

Reading this made me a bit sad for you there in ship02
then again, we wont hear the Japanese complain because only english-speaking players would likely post their complains here.

Kril
Jun 1, 2019, 02:55 PM
You guys are just making yourself hard for not getting expert and then complaining about it here. Seriously...go get expert and just stop whining continuously, it doesn't matter how much you rage about how flawed the requirements and "EXPERT" itself it wouldn't change anything. SEGA gave you all the tools you needed for the past few months to get expert, unless you are new or a returning player there's just no excuse. Learn your class. Cheese it if you have to, there's nothing wrong with cheesing an enemy's AI unless you're dumb enough not to dodge Deus's bamboo sprout missles in XQ solo

why is that when I say this my post gets deleted? this was my exact output on this whole situation in that quote above


After reading most of the posts it just feels like people are just throwing excuse after excuse to not get this done while others have some legitimacy to their troubles. It's realistically going to make you learn to play better or you can't get in, simple as that. It really makes me wonder if the JP community is complaining just as hard as English speakers are but even then I think they would actually put in the effort or just be like some of you guys and just not bother. I honestly can't say

and there goes the_importer_ spouting off that Sega has some agenda to for this whole expert requirement that its a money making scheme of sorts to keep people paying/staying. We all know this isn't even the case and you're just looking for something to shift blame to

NightlightPro
Jun 1, 2019, 03:21 PM
inb4 next expert req "don't take any damage" + "s-rank" clear

ralf542
Jun 1, 2019, 04:33 PM
there's nothing wrong with cheesing an enemy's AI unless you're dumb enough not to dodge Deus's bamboo sprout missles in XQ solo
What's wrong with those? They don't hit so hard.

vantpers
Jun 1, 2019, 04:37 PM
It's one of the few attacks that can hit you in the air during stage 1. Otherwise Deus will miss everything else.

ralf542
Jun 1, 2019, 04:48 PM
It's one of the few attacks that can hit you in the air during stage 1. Otherwise Deus will miss everything else.
So that attack was shooting me down on my Hero attempt, the cheese guides didn't mention it.

vantpers
Jun 1, 2019, 04:50 PM
So that attack was shooting me down on my Hero attempt, the cheese guides didn't mention it.
Is it really necessary to mention that enemies can hit you sometimes?

MrYukito
Jun 1, 2019, 04:56 PM
Oh I see, if experts complain they're being matched with people worse than them, they're elitists. But if non-experts complain you're being matched with people worse than you it's fine, because it's those people that are the leechers. It's all so clear now.

You're missing out on a drop rate boost, well so what. The rares can still drop, they can still be exchanged with medals. You're getting less because you put in less. If you don't like it then go take a half hour and clear the reqs.

And really, the reqs are a poor judge of how you play the game? Don't die, clear it within x time. What's this EM want for your Sector 3 drop boosts? Clear it fast! You know what helps for that? Clearing fast. Not dying.

Couldn't have said it better than this.

OP is complaining that expert players have an easier time doing multiple runs in sector 1 and 2 because we're all "expert" tier, but then says he's stuck in non-expert where it's "unfair" for drop rate? Surprise! It has been this way since launch of this game. Those who were "expert" clear EQs faster. Wild Easter is a perfect example. Non-expert XH you were lucky to clear it 3 times. Expert was 4-5 times every single time. Was OP complaining then? No, because they were benefiting off the expert MMing.

If you are unable to clear the current expert requirements, YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF CONTRIBUTING AT AN EXPERT LEVEL, AND THEREFORE YOU DO NOT DESERVE TO BENEFIT OFF OF THOSE WHO CAN.

Period.

Also, How in the world are the current expert requirements NOT a good indicator of being in expert mode? What exactly do you think Expert mode should be? People who have played the game for 3000 hours? People who THINK they are good enough?

Expert in this game = "I do lots of DPS quickly and I don't die."

That is all it takes to be expert in this game. There is no secret formula other than this. If you can't do enough DPS fast enough while also not dying, then you simply are not expert level, and therefore in an EQ designed around clearing content quickly for more RDR, you do not deserve to gain the same amount of stuff as those who in "expert" mode.

This whole thing is like complaining that people who are better than you in Endless get better rewards. Well, yeah, because that's the nature of the game.

vantpers
Jun 1, 2019, 05:22 PM
Expert in this game = "I do lots of DPS quickly and I don't die."

More like do like either do lots of DPS or don't die but not necessarily at the same time. Source: my dead body

Kril
Jun 1, 2019, 06:07 PM
More like do like either do lots of DPS or don't die but not necessarily at the same time. Source: my dead body

Dont die then ez. Source: general know how of playing video games

vantpers
Jun 1, 2019, 06:16 PM
Dont die then ez. Source: general know how of playing video games
No, I am gonna go into expert MPA and start dying right now.

Kril
Jun 1, 2019, 07:08 PM
No, I am gonna go into expert MPA and start dying right now.

You leave me no choice, im subbing hunter as a SU main AND im going to max Automate+Iron Will with Fury Skills+Pretty Good

Loveless62
Jun 1, 2019, 08:07 PM
Also, How in the world are the current expert requirements NOT a good indicator of being in expert mode? What exactly do you think Expert mode should be? People who have played the game for 3000 hours? People who THINK they are good enough?
Honestly, looking at the history of expert requirements, I am not sure Sega even has a clear idea of what an "expert" should be like. The difficulty of the requirements seem to vary a lot.

I will say that the current requirements are probably the most strict, but I am not confident that Sega does much better than pick where the line is for "expert" arbitrarily.

SteveCZ
Jun 1, 2019, 08:09 PM
I have failed to get the Expert Mode requirements for months. Maybe that's beause of my ineptitude (as you imply) or maybe that's because of my incurable bradykinesia/bradypsyche. In any case, thank you to avoid making general considerations claiming people who keep failing just don't want to get better. I don't have my place in Expert Mode and I accept it. But I do not accept to be called a lazybones. Because it's not true.

I don't think most people will look down to those who put up the effort. But do you see the pattern here? This complain thread is already more than 10 pages long in only a few days, and not a single one who haven't passed the expert requirement and still struggle wanted to open a thread of "HOW to deal with expert requirement" and start posting their video or whatever part they think they need to optimize. Not, a single one.

Meanwhile, there are those out there that are also failing on daily basis, but they keep asking and posting what they did wrong within a community, and that community keeps asking for his/her gear, affix, parts of his/her gameplay videos, and keep optimizing and starting to improve.

Flatflyer
Jun 1, 2019, 08:14 PM
I feel like one thing that'd atleast make it better for those middle-ground people would be to use the old expert reqs for a in-between matchmaking mode between normal and expert so that the people who put in atleast that much effort wont get stuck with leechers/extremely undergeared players. it'd be an easy change to do probably but I dont know if that'd split the playerbase up too much.

Stormwalker
Jun 1, 2019, 09:51 PM
The really funny thing about this is that my original post was not intended to be an complaint about the expert mode requirements (which I've been actively working on passing myself, and indeed passed one of them last night!) but rather I was trying to express a concern about the way the EQ is structured and a feeling that it was unfairly stacked against those without expert.

The even more funny thing is that having done the EQ a few mote times since and gotten some better quality parties (even in non-expert, yes), I've come to the conclusion that I was wrong about my original concerns - the EQ is fine as it is.

And yet the argument over the expert matching conditions rages on. This doesn't surprise me, honestly, because I think the whole expert match concept is flawed (and the implementation even more so), but I was really not trying to start something like this!

dont_talk_to_me
Jun 2, 2019, 12:07 AM
/thread

SteveCZ
Jun 2, 2019, 12:10 AM
And yet the argument over the expert matching conditions rages on. This doesn't surprise me, honestly, because I think the whole expert match concept is flawed (and the implementation even more so), but I was really not trying to start something like this!

Err... ok. :-?

Misaki Ki
Jun 2, 2019, 01:35 AM
Badges....

Vatallus
Jun 2, 2019, 02:16 AM
I don't know what to say. They made it easy to gear up. I can't even do a full loop of Endless Quest 1 solo but easily did the expert requirements. Even if you didnt take advantage of all the quest before to make an easy 15 star, as someone mentioned before you can buy an Awake weapon off the market and use that to destroy bosses.

Assuming you were smart enough to farm the easter CFs for +30 13*s to easily grind future weapons you would want to make.

Dark Mits
Jun 2, 2019, 07:14 AM
I don't think most people will look down to those who put up the effort. But do you see the pattern here? This complain thread is already more than 10 pages long in only a few days, and not a single one who haven't passed the expert requirement and still struggle wanted to open a thread of "HOW to deal with expert requirement" and start posting their video or whatever part they think they need to optimize. Not, a single one.Because that would be counterproductive to the actual problem, which led Sega to implement a wrong approach in solving it; players should not be shown how to clear a specific challenge, they should be shown how to improve themselves globally in whatever challenge may be implemented.

A guide for current Expert requirements is, like people have said, "cheesing" and "a cheat sheet". The correct approach would be to teach people how to measure if a piece of equipment is an upgrade or not without telling them what the optimal is, how to check if a different build is more effective or not without telling them what the meta is, how to recognize when to use a long range vs short range ability, how to recognize when to burst vs when to sustain, how to recognize when to use long-cast animation vs. short-cast etc.

Kiboune
Jun 2, 2019, 07:28 AM
But I do not accept to be called a lazybones. Because it's not true.
But Yurashina is right. People who say they can't clear solo XQ, are lazy. You don't need good gear , you don't even need skills.Уesterday I bought Dim Talis, grinded it and cleared solo XQ, with 80lvl hero.It took me 4-6 tries to get S rank. So if you don't want to do even this - you're lazy.You wasted more time complaining about new requirements,than trying to clear solo XQ.

Terrence
Jun 2, 2019, 08:18 AM
But Yurashina is right. People who say they can't clear solo XQ, are lazy. You don't need good gear , you don't even need skills.Уesterday I bought Dim Talis, grinded it and cleared solo XQ, with 80lvl hero.It took me 4-6 tries to get S rank. So if you don't want to do even this - you're lazy.You wasted more time complaining about new requirements,than trying to clear solo XQ.
Did you understand a single word of what I wrote ? Did you even read my whole post ? I think not. But since you seem to be a know-it-all, please, give me a way to cure my illness before turning your nose up at me. I would gladly appreciate it.

SteveCZ
Jun 2, 2019, 10:25 AM
Because that would be counterproductive to the actual problem, which led Sega to implement a wrong approach in solving it; players should not be shown how to clear a specific challenge, they should be shown how to improve themselves globally in whatever challenge may be implemented.

A guide for current Expert requirements is, like people have said, "cheesing" and "a cheat sheet". The correct approach would be to teach people how to measure if a piece of equipment is an upgrade or not without telling them what the optimal is, how to check if a different build is more effective or not without telling them what the meta is, how to recognize when to use a long range vs short range ability, how to recognize when to burst vs when to sustain, how to recognize when to use long-cast animation vs. short-cast etc.

This is not an educational institution, this is a game. It is meant to be solved, not the game solving it for you. I've been telling for three times now, many people are willing to help, regardless of how thick-headed some players are, but nobody is even bother asking about how to deal with the quests.

The reality is this expert requirement will be around for quite long. I'm just trying to keep some people's feet on the ground here when they keep trying to fly alone with non-existent wings when there's nothing to fly to, just a path ahead with a road block to break wishing it should never exist.

If you wish them to stay complaining over the requirement for I don't know until when, then be my guest, while all I wish is just they keep trying to improve and never give up, cause I believe they can pass this expert requirement and be done with it. Pick your side.

Edit: Apparently Zephyrion has opened such thread (http://www.pso-world.com/forums/showthread.php?238416-Expert-mode-requirement-Directory-help-and-Q-amp-A) by the time of this post being written. Well, thank goodness for him to do that (as I stated before here, I'm lazy to make one). Anyway I'm done here.

MrYukito
Jun 2, 2019, 11:23 AM
The really funny thing about this is that my original post was not intended to be an complaint about the expert mode requirements (which I've been actively working on passing myself, and indeed passed one of them last night!) but rather I was trying to express a concern about the way the EQ is structured and a feeling that it was unfairly stacked against those without expert.

The even more funny thing is that having done the EQ a few mote times since and gotten some better quality parties (even in non-expert, yes), I've come to the conclusion that I was wrong about my original concerns - the EQ is fine as it is.

And yet the argument over the expert matching conditions rages on. This doesn't surprise me, honestly, because I think the whole expert match concept is flawed (and the implementation even more so), but I was really not trying to start something like this!

You realize that the EQ structure has been very much in favor of Expert players since the game launched? Only quests like CCC, Guides, Persona, and other raid style bosses are "equal" to both sets of players.

Every other EQ is designed around doing it as much as possible in the time alotted to maximize your chances of getting rares, which naturally favors expert players.

You only made the thread when you weren't in Expert MMing anymore and weren't getting the same quality that you were getting before, which tells me that the complaint wasn't the EQ itself, but that your QoL was lowered due to not being in Expert. If you had been in Expert MMing all along, would you have even made this thread?

And finally, there is no problem with expert MMing being in the game. It allows people who care enough about the game to have an easy way to play with others like them and not be dumpstered by the RNG of getting matched with people who struggle to clear even a single MPA.

When CCC and Dark Demolisher launched, I hadn't upped my Expert MMing. I remember failing 3 attempts at Dark Demolisher 3 different times in a row due to the other 3 people in my party dying. When I redid the expert reqs, that changed instantly.

How is it better that players good enough to rarely die get thrown in with randoms that completely prevent the expert from getting rewards for their work due to how bad the non-experts are?

Kril
Jun 2, 2019, 02:40 PM
You realize that the EQ structure has been very much in favor of Expert players since the game launched? Only quests like CCC, Guides, Persona, and other raid style bosses are "equal" to both sets of players.

Every other EQ is designed around doing it as much as possible in the time alotted to maximize your chances of getting rares, which naturally favors expert players.

You only made the thread when you weren't in Expert MMing anymore and weren't getting the same quality that you were getting before, which tells me that the complaint wasn't the EQ itself, but that your QoL was lowered due to not being in Expert. If you had been in Expert MMing all along, would you have even made this thread?

And finally, there is no problem with expert MMing being in the game. It allows people who care enough about the game to have an easy way to play with others like them and not be dumpstered by the RNG of getting matched with people who struggle to clear even a single MPA.

When CCC and Dark Demolisher launched, I hadn't upped my Expert MMing. I remember failing 3 attempts at Dark Demolisher 3 different times in a row due to the other 3 people in my party dying. When I redid the expert reqs, that changed instantly.

How is it better that players good enough to rarely die get thrown in with randoms that completely prevent the expert from getting rewards for their work due to how bad the non-experts are?

why you guys also make this random assumption that every piece of content that gets released is solely based around Expert Players? because if this was remotely the case you people without the Expert Title would never clear said content or get any of its loot, you'd just be wasting your time for 30mins a session in attempts to finish. Sega doesn't design content to be unclearable, you guys act like that dont know that they need a clear balance for Casual vs Expert in content regardless if one or the other can do more runs or clear it quicker.

If your runs arent going good, who do you have to blame? certainly not Sega or Expert Players thats for sure

Flatflyer
Jun 2, 2019, 03:10 PM
I think that issue about being "geared for expert" tends to stem more from the concept of repeatable EQs in the first place.

Because expert runs generally tend to be faster, you get effectively more drops per EQ that is repeatable.

as much as people dislike limiting EQ runs, I feel like it does ultimately make it feel less like "expert is required" to get a "good" run of an EQ, meaning people will be less likely to complain about it.

in a way this has been somewhat addressed with past seasonal EQs where they have a set time limit and you just collect points as you go on, it effectively forces expert and non-expert to have the same amount of runs overall (quality varying, but you cant really help that).

vantpers
Jun 2, 2019, 03:15 PM
Limit EQ runs is both better and worse. Better because many players don't need to hurry, and worse because people will just jump ships to get their fix of multiple runs. What's worse jumping ship results in more expert bitching because your ability to have multiple TMPAs is limited, since you're hopping ships, and getting more runs is not only limited to good players, but good players that have multiple characters on multiple ships, which to benefit the most they use to transfer rares between one another using AC, making it more P2W.

Dark Mits
Jun 2, 2019, 04:51 PM
There is no real best solution, just a compromise. Sega did try an intermediate solution with Driving Rain 2018, Xmas 2018 etc, where all runs were 12min long, therefore everyone got to do 3 runs assuming no disconnections and starting from x:00. But even that did bring complaints that some runs were not reaching high amounts of points, and therefore quality of rewards was lower.

Sega hasn't capitalized on the ranking system they had for Mining Base Defense and now for some Ultra Hard ECs. Imagine if the game decided lower 80% of rewards (the so called vendor rewards) based on how far you reached or how many you killed, and the higher 20% of rewards (14*+ drops, progress on CF, chances for rare materials etc.) based on the player's performance (total damage contribution, damage taken, healing done to others, reaction to events [like killing a tower in BQ instead of just mobbing], etc).

Kril
Jun 2, 2019, 05:46 PM
There is no real best solution, just a compromise. Sega did try an intermediate solution with Driving Rain 2018, Xmas 2018 etc, where all runs were 12min long, therefore everyone got to do 3 runs assuming no disconnections and starting from x:00. But even that did bring complaints that some runs were not reaching high amounts of points, and therefore quality of rewards was lower.

Sega hasn't capitalized on the ranking system they had for Mining Base Defense and now for some Ultra Hard ECs. Imagine if the game decided lower 80% of rewards (the so called vendor rewards) based on how far you reached or how many you killed, and the higher 20% of rewards (14*+ drops, progress on CF, chances for rare materials etc.) based on the player's performance (total damage contribution, damage taken, healing done to others, reaction to events [like killing a tower in BQ instead of just mobbing], etc).

I just want to give you the heads up on W&R/Xmas 2018, very few people were legitmately upset about not getting max score while having max score was great, there was a threshold of having a set amount for maximum RDR applied (which I dont remember what it was for each EQ) but after those points were met, I believe every 1k or so applied a 20% bonus RDR to the drops. Minuscule as that was, it wasn't make or break, especially during Polytan EQ.

So essentially the time gate on those EQ's were ok it was obviously the more runs the better which couldnt be possible which upset people more, this wasn't a call to casual help

also screw the ranking Trial stuff, theres so much stuff that you can do to inflate your score its ridiculous, while use its a nice competition of sorts, rewarding people for top placements would only upset people even more for not meeting 1st

Dark Priest
Jun 2, 2019, 06:04 PM
also screw the ranking Trial stuff, theres so much stuff that you can do to inflate your score its ridiculous, while use its a nice competition of sorts, rewarding people for top placements would only upset people even more for not meeting 1st

That's precisely why you just ignore that garbage system, it works like old Mining base score where "just leech the kills for top score" nonsense, and the damage ones so many ways to cheese the score, i have no idea why they decided to put that dumb nonsense in a random Trial, i guess this was their attempt at something "new" at least the up coming visibolt one seems like some actual effort since people mostly fail those due to laziness.

Zulastar
Jun 2, 2019, 06:59 PM
Hey, you're all totally forgot about fucks who pack themselves with 3-4k HP without any attack on, so they may have an Expert but no real DPS in MPAs.

Kril
Jun 2, 2019, 07:20 PM
That's precisely why you just ignore that garbage system, it works like old Mining base score where "just leech the kills for top score" nonsense, and the damage ones so many ways to cheese the score, i have no idea why they decided to put that dumb nonsense in a random Trial, i guess this was their attempt at something "new" at least the up coming visibolt one seems like some actual effort since people mostly fail those due to laziness.

What Im saying is theres nothing wrong with it now in UH, its to get people to try harder for placements in return its getting people to DPS more which in return completes w/e faster since its just a little fun competition within the mpa but it doesn't mean you should feel ashamed either if you didnt place.

but again, if they rewarded people which is nice, it'll just be another double edge sword getting people to whine and complain about muh dps and elitism etc


Hey, you're all totally forgot about fucks who pack themselves with 3-4k HP without any attack on, so they may have an Expert but no real DPS in MPAs.

If these guys managed to make it under the par times to get said Expert Title (and while i dont agree with no atks on affix builds) then I guess they more than earned their way in but if they cheesed it then uhh I guess insert Hollow Victory meme here

Dark Priest
Jun 2, 2019, 07:23 PM
What Im saying is theres nothing wrong with it now in UH, its to get people to try harder for placements in return its getting people to DPS more which in return completes w/e faster since its just a little fun competition within the mpa but it doesn't mean you should feel ashamed either if you didnt place.

I actually roll my eyes every time i place top or in the top 3 on any of them, because it's just pointless, if it increased drop rate or you got something for it, maybe i'd care. but for the most part i'm just like "man, i don't want people to see my name there, go away"

Kondibon
Jun 2, 2019, 07:24 PM
Yeah, the fact that the trial rankings only give extra excubes as far as I know is why I feel they're fine. I only really bother trying to actively compete in the total damage ones against bosses, since all the others are crapshoots.

wefwq
Jun 2, 2019, 07:30 PM
Hey, you're all totally forgot about fucks who pack themselves with 3-4k HP without any attack on, so they may have an Expert but no real DPS in MPAs.
They would still need some kind of DPS to pass mother deus trigger.

Zorak000
Jun 2, 2019, 07:30 PM
I'm still in the camp of "expert should really just be for people who want to get better, what the people pointing to the definition of the word 'expert' want should be coordinating private groups; non expert would be like; that guy running around with a 40%ish lightning atlas rod, katana braver main that has never pressed the guard button in their entire life" and im just really tired of repeating this all the time

Kril
Jun 2, 2019, 08:49 PM
I actually roll my eyes every time i place top or in the top 3 on any of them, because it's just pointless, if it increased drop rate or you got something for it, maybe i'd care. but for the most part i'm just like "man, i don't want people to see my name there, go away"

well regardless of what they do, adding stuff to people placing top 3 will only make people who cant remotely get there mad and hence forth another song and dance about Experts, Elitism, Gear Investment, Skill etc and as much as I would be okay with something being added to placements, I would rather just avoid it all together to not deal with the monotony all over again.

When I place i generally dont care, cool Im out putting higher than the others or cool Im top DEEPS for this e-trial, lets keep moving. no big deal

Kondibon
Jun 2, 2019, 08:52 PM
I actually get upset when I place top in a max damage or total damage trial because my DPS is garbage, especially in 12 man MPAs.