GC: Cheats r ok, sometimes

[Madman]

Cheating is ok if u find a really good item and u have a little bro or a friend who is always, "Can I have that, give me 1, how did u get it, I don't want to do that,ect." I don't know any cheats for pso and I don't plan to get a gameshark 4 it.

[Logical2u]

Yea, so you may think, but unfortunatly it is called TWINKING when you do that, and it completly undermines the game's economy.

[VioletSkye]

Heh, what economy? The PSO trade economy is a myth. It was ruined so fast, so hard that it never even really saw the light of day. Its unfortunate because it would be fun to have an actual trade economy where rares were just that, "rare". But as we are all painfully aware, rares on all systems are pretty much a dime a dozen. The part that really bites is that no matter how hard you searched for and how excited you got over finding that killer rare item, there are hundreds of little level 1 chars using the same thing (and often times with better %'s) I admit that I dupe items and use duped items, but even so, I really hope PSO Ep.3 can be legit at least for awhile. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Aurra]

Plus, it's not twinking that ruins the economy. And of course like VS said, there really is no economy any more. Twinking doesn't screw with the total amount of items out there; they just move from one character to another. Duping creates new items though, causing all the other ones in existance to become less rare since there are now more out there.

And I agree that cheaters don't have to be bad people. Almost all of my best friends on PSO either dupe or use dupes even though I don't, and we're still good friends.

[Madman]

I mean that it is ok as long as u don't do it online. I mean I haven't been online yet but I know what it feels like when u find this really good green weapon, equiped it, and a lv. 15 character runs right past u with a golden one. It's ok 2 dupe OFFLINE and and use the dupe then but you shouldn't use it online, or trade it for a matter of fact. But like I said...I don't know how to dupe.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Madman on 2003-07-08 08:19 ]</font>

[Obscenity]

I keep people referring to some mythical "economy" as if this were something real and not just a game. You should face facts. If other people using duped items bothers you, the issue lies with you, not them. Play the way you want to, and leave others alone.

[RubyEclipse]

As a matter of fact, the "trade economy" is not a mythical thing, it was indeed "real", if you will, but as of now it has been totally destroyed thanks to mass dupers.

I can remember the times I would go into a game and a Pair of Asuka's were considered the "Uber Rares". Amazing how quickly things can change...and we have cheaters to thank for all of it! So you people who say cheats dont hurt, look at this:

Had duping never appeared (wouldn't that have been the miracle?), we wouldn't have:

1: Lost the PSO trade economy.
2: Gotten the Double Save

Just two reasons, but they seem big enough for me. So many of my friends have left because of FSOD-X on the double save it isn't even funny. If you people say you dislike cheaters that ruin the fun of others, then you yourself have just made a pledge that you will never dupe, and if you see someone duping, you'll try to stop them.

Why? Becuase it was dupers that mass duped, and because of them that we got double save, and because of double save that we have FSOD corruption, and that's why we are losing so many PSO players every day. So in the end it all lead's back to Dupers. Don't blame this on sonic team, this is our own fault, the world of PSO's fault, not SonicTeam's.

Well, I'll stop there, and VS, I hope that if your views differ we can have a nice debate like we did last time, you're one of the few people I can actually enjoy arguing with, because you don't just post "stfu u r wrong I r right", you actually think out your answers and make it quite challenging. Thank you.

[Obscenity]

Like I said, it's just a game. Getting all bent out of shape over it is pointless, for you and Sonic Team. And they ARE to blame for the double save, regardless of what you think. If it had been implemented properly, the FSOD corrupts wouldn't occur. Not to mention there was no need for it to be implemented to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, the only "cheating" that would bother me is the type that affects me directly and not just something that offends my sense of video game honorabliity. (Note the tinge of sarcasm) Seriously, get a life. When people start PKing again, then you'll have a reason to complain. Otherwise, you're just talking to hear yourself talk.

[RubyEclipse]

If you hadn't noticed, for some of us, PSO is our life...lol...

As for the double save, I don't approve of it, but it wasn't my decision to make. Yeah, ST really messed up with that, but where else would they implement it? People can still get around double save, I won't say how, and I don't think there is any spot they could have put it stop duping...however...

They did try. Better than not trying at all, right? I don't really care if people use dupes or not (unless they BA1 me...grr.....)...

[VioletSkye]

On 2003-07-08 10:03, RubyEclipse wrote:
As a matter of fact, the "trade economy" is not a mythical thing, it was indeed "real", if you will, but as of now it has been totally destroyed thanks to mass dupers.

I can remember the times I would go into a game and a Pair of Asuka's were considered the "Uber Rares". Amazing how quickly things can change...and we have cheaters to thank for all of it! So you people who say cheats dont hurt, look at this:

Had duping never appeared (wouldn't that have been the miracle?), we wouldn't have:

1: Lost the PSO trade economy.
2: Gotten the Double Save

Just two reasons, but they seem big enough for me. So many of my friends have left because of FSOD-X on the double save it isn't even funny. If you people say you dislike cheaters that ruin the fun of others, then you yourself have just made a pledge that you will never dupe, and if you see someone duping, you'll try to stop them.

Why? Becuase it was dupers that mass duped, and because of them that we got double save, and because of double save that we have FSOD corruption, and that's why we are losing so many PSO players every day. So in the end it all lead's back to Dupers. Don't blame this on sonic team, this is our own fault, the world of PSO's fault, not SonicTeam's.

Well, I'll stop there, and VS, I hope that if your views differ we can have a nice debate like we did last time, you're one of the few people I can actually enjoy arguing with, because you don't just post "stfu u r wrong I r right", you actually think out your answers and make it quite challenging. Thank you.


I'll do my best Ruby http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Nice theory but its flawed beyond belief. First of all, you have to remember that the worth of any particular item is in the eye of the beholder. What you think a rare is worth and what the other person thinks its worth can be two vastly different things. My point is, there is no standard by which a specific item is measured. An economy by definition contains items and/or standards of measured value. When you go to buy a candy bar (in the US anyway) you use legal tender ie. nickels, dimes ,quarters, bill etc. The price may fluctuate from place to place, but generally it will be within a certain range. No one goes to 7/11 and pays $20 for a Milky Way. Thats because the value of that item has pretty much been set.

PSO uses a Supply/Demand architecture. Say you open a trade window and you would like the other persons 10 star item. So you proceed to display what you feel would be fair trades (possibly other 10 star items). The rules, standards, practices and values of an actual economy will NOT play into whether or not that person trades with you. It will depend on a number of uncontrollable factors. Whether the other person, needs/wants that item. Whether or not they feel its a fair trade. Whether or not they feel they might be able to trade your item for something different. And don't forget to factor in the other persons mood. At that particular time they may be feeling extra generous, or conversely they may be in a bad mood and unwilling to negotiate. That does not sound like an economy to me considering the fact that the Dictionary defines economy as "An orderly, functional arrangement of parts; an organized system"
There is nothing orderly or organized about PSO trading as a whole.

Ok lets move on and discuss the Double Save. You say not to blame ST for it, but my dear amigo, who do you think implemented the Doubel Save? Was it some random player? Maybe a "hacker" get into the system and did it? No...ST implemented the Double Save and AFTER ALL THIS TIME of it NOT WORKING in preventing dupes, they could have removed it. Not only could they have removed it, they SHOULD have removed it. They OBVIOUSLY know that it stops nothing, so ask them why it is still a part of the online experience. If had a storage area and found that people were stealing things from me, I would try to prevent it. So lets say I install a security system in which lights and alarms go off if someone attempts to open the door or window. But alas, the thieves (for the sake of argument) do not use the door or window. Lets suppose they tunnel into the storage area from underground. Lets also say that the security system has no way to monitor that and has become a pain because everytime I enter my facility I have to deactivate it. Long story short....my method of security failed. So do I keep it around even though its worthless, do I just accept the fact that people are stealing from me, or do I look into alternative methods to secure my area. If something doesn't work and ultimately does more harm than good, you remove it. Double Save may have been introduced in order to keep the game legit, but it hasn't so the ONLY PEOPLE who can remove it is ST.

You are correct in saying it was because of dupers, however after all this time of complete ineffectiveness, it is ST's responsibility to remove it. No one else can. So a person can dwell in the past and hold a particular grudge against a specific group of violators lol or they can accept the fact that the powers that be (ST) refuse to remove a potentially harmful piece of code that would make the game safer and ultimately more fun for the online community. Its a sad fact of reality, but cyberculture has changed drastically over the years. "Hacking", "phreaking" "cracking" etc have become commonplace terms and more kids today are looking for ways to get around the conventional game play experience. You'd be hard pressed to find many kids online who haven't heard of duping. The idea of bending the rules has become chic and therefore companies that produce games have a FAR MORE DIFFICULT task before them then they have in the past. How to keep kids from exploiting their game. People will ALWAYS be looking for someway to cheat (not everyone mind you, but enough that it warrants extra attention) and so ultimately security lies in the talent, creativity and caring of a game company.

[RubyEclipse]

Ah, now this is what I'm talking about!



On 2003-07-08 10:55, VioletSkye wrote:

Nice theory but its flawed beyond belief. First of all, you have to remember that the worth of any particular item is in the eye of the beholder. What you think a rare is worth and what the other person thinks its worth can be two vastly different things. My point is, there is no standard by which a specific item is measured. An economy by definition contains items and/or standards of measured value. When you go to buy a candy bar (in the US anyway) you use legal tender ie. nickels, dimes ,quarters, bill etc. The price may fluctuate from place to place, but generally it will be within a certain range. No one goes to 7/11 and pays $20 for a Milky Way. Thats because the value of that item has pretty much been set.


You are somewhat correct there, however there are indeed certain standards by which items are measured, and this is to players on a whole.

Just about everyone that has played for some time knows that a DB saber is worth just about nothing, just as people today know that pennies alone are worth just about nothing.

The only difference is, a lot of Pennies eventually add up, but even with a 100 DB's sabers you've still only got crap.

But most players do know what rares are better than others, however in the end it is up to them. It's not truly a "buy/sell" economy, it is more of a bartering economy, where everyone knows what is "good" and "bad", but in the end they choose what they want/don't want.



Ok lets move on and discuss the Double Save. You say not to blame ST for it, but my dear amigo, who do you think implemented the Doubel Save? Was it some random player? Maybe a "hacker" get into the system and did it? No...ST implemented the Double Save and AFTER ALL THIS TIME of it NOT WORKING in preventing dupes, they could have removed it.


I never said ST was the brightest people out there. I agree that they should have figured this out by now, and I can still remember bitching at them the two times I was corrupted thanks to double save fsod and lost my level 130+ chars...twice, in fact. I'm just saying if you want to blame somebody, get the facts straight.

Let's say a mastermind (Person A) convinces a person (Person B) to go and kill somebody else. The person that did the bad(B) thing gets flamed for it, but in reality they only did because of person A.

Now, who is to blame? Well, both of them, but most people only want to blame B, seeing as he was the person that actually did it. So, in this case, it's both the duper's and SonicTeam's fault, but I would say moreso at the dupers.


Its a sad fact of reality, but cyberculture has changed drastically over the years. "Hacking", "phreaking" "cracking" etc have become commonplace terms and more kids today are looking for ways to get around the conventional game play experience. You'd be hard pressed to find many kids online who haven't heard of duping. The idea of bending the rules has become chic and therefore companies that produce games have a FAR MORE DIFFICULT task before them then they have in the past. How to keep kids from exploiting their game. People will ALWAYS be looking for someway to cheat (not everyone mind you, but enough that it warrants extra attention) and so ultimately security lies in the talent, creativity and caring of a game company.



Yep, and this is whats wrong with society today http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[VioletSkye]

We should have our own show Ruby http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif Sort of a Point/Counterpoint type scenario lol.

[primer567]

Grammar r okay too.....

[Gestiv]

VioletSkye, you should contact ST and give them your lil' security system scenario... maybe that will convince them to remove the double save (although I find it hard to believe that anything would get through those thick heads of theirs). http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[VioletSkye]

On 2003-07-08 18:12, Gestiv wrote:
VioletSkye, you should contact ST and give them your lil' security system scenario... maybe that will convince them to remove the double save (although I find it hard to believe that anything would get through those thick heads of theirs). http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


LOL. Who knows might be worth a shot. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif