Sonic Team and the future of PSO

[AndyPandy]

Hey, yeah, another topic about Sonic Team....yay. This time though, a question about what you personally feel about Sonic Team. This is not a moaning topic, I just want you to tell me if you think Sonic Teams efforts with PSO are to be commended or if you think the negative points outway the positive.

Ok, so the story starts with the Beta version of PSO, I never beta tested this game or claim to know anything about it, so I'll skip this part. Right....onto Japanese PSO Ver 1.0, the first commercially available PSO to public. I think you all know that within one week of its release someone found the HUGE offline dupe bug. How did Sonic Team miss this bug considering they had a beta version out first? ...anyway, they did and the rest is history. After two months of no news, the people that bought PSO Ver 1.0 get told by Sonic Team that the USAEU servers would now not be connected because of this bug. I guess they decided that they didnt want the "fixed" versions of PSO becoming over-run with dupes etc. This was a major blow to a lot of people, so Sonic Team decided to offer them the chance to "upgrade" to the new "fixed" (1.1) version of PSO for free in exchange for their old PSO disc. This "all new" version would have the dupe bug fixed as well as allow people to now play with the EU and USA ships. Unfortunately for importers this disc was only available if you lived in Japan and had a valid postal address. The disc would only be shipped to Japanese residents for exchange. Initially the discs were very hard to get hold of because of this. Needless to say numerous Import Games shops did manage to get hold of some discs eventually (months later), sometimes at great expense to the customer. Ok, so we have finally got our update disc, and we are now able to play with our EU and US friends...yipee. One of the main negative points of the switch over was the fact that you would automatically loose ALL items, legit or duped. Most people can forgive this, as the Japanese 1.0 ships started to get cut down in numbers and less and less people played there. On a side note, Version 1.1 ended up having a NEW bug in it that Version 1.0 didnt have. Basically you couldnt complete one of the offline quests unless you changed your language settings.....doh.

Looking back at the situation now, it kind of makes me laugh that Sonic Team ever bothered with Version 1.1. To go to all the expense of pressing the new discs, the postage, the setting up of the new servers, and for what? I mean.....who actually made the decision to go ahead with 1.1 in the first place, does he or she still have a job at Sonic Team?

Ok, enough of my ramblings, what do you lot think. Ok, so, the main point of this post, does this story give you much confidence in Sonic Teams future plans with PSO 3 Card battle?

Sorry about the long post....

[Shattered_weasel]

I think that they are just doing there job and that most people need to lighten up on them.

[rena-ko]

ok, so you're pissed that you imported v1.0 and had a hard time to get v1.1 without seeing any big advantage out of it?

well, you're free to, but as an importer you should know by yourself that importing always comes together with a bit of risk. noone forced you to import, you got burnt, its your own fault so i don't see any real purpose for you to whine now.

mayor point for v1.1 was as far as i know a bug in the dsl-connection protocols, not neccessarily the duping bug. seeing as how all versions have dupebugs in it, i'd say sonic team failed to fix that anyway, if they ever tried.

[AndyPandy]

Who the hell said im whining....im just listing some major blunders by Sonic Team. I love PSO, thats reason why I play both XBOX and Gamecube. Its posts like yours that degenerate this board, and cause unrest amongst people. Just because im annoyed about something doesnt mean i should be branded a whiner. Why cant you just add your reply instead of ridiculing people with pointless negative remarks.

On a side note, what the hell has importing got to do with "being my fault" HUH!!!, its still a product that you buy, why should it be someones fault that they imported? Ok, so, take it from the perspective that I live in Japan, the points still the same....why did Sonic Team bother with Version 1.1?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AndyPandy on 2003-07-18 07:43 ]</font>

[ginko990]

On 2003-07-18 06:58, Shattered_weasel wrote:
I think that they are just doing there job and that most people need to lighten up on them.



that was my outlook towards ST until they started totally fucking over PSOX US.

[Jack]

On 2003-07-18 07:32, AndyPandy wrote:On a side note, what the hell has importing got to do with "being my fault" HUH!!!, its still a product that you buy, why should it be someones fault that they imported? Ok, so, take it from the perspective that I live in Japan, the points still the same....why did Sonic Team bother with Version 1.1?

Actually, since it says "For sale and use only in Japan" or something to that effect on the back, they don't have to help you.

[saffaya]

Just a note : you started your story with the launch of GameCube's PSO, not taking into account all the fuck-up's ST did already with the DreamCast version.


I'm always amazed by how some people can still turn a blind eye and be so lenient with ST screwing up us all PSO play.. er CUSTOMERS.

[AndyPandy]

On 2003-07-18 08:25, Jack wrote:

On 2003-07-18 07:32, AndyPandy wrote:On a side note, what the hell has importing got to do with "being my fault" HUH!!!, its still a product that you buy, why should it be someones fault that they imported? Ok, so, take it from the perspective that I live in Japan, the points still the same....why did Sonic Team bother with Version 1.1?

Actually, since it says "For sale and use only in Japan" or something to that effect on the back, they don't have to help you.



I never freaking asked them to....OMG, i really aint getting through here am I...forget it.

[StryderPSO]

i think the biggest mistake taht has been made by sonic team is not making PSO an Online only game, and having all charecters stored on the severs

[Sedyne]

Sonic Team's time is done. They can't make anything anymore that is remotely new and entertaining.

Shinobi...oh yeah that flopped

OMG lets see antoher PSO ep9?

Sonic Adventure DX! YAYAY Combined Sonic Adventures!!

hmm blah

sonic team should just give up ;3 OR MABY LISTEN TO THE CUSTOMERS A BIT MORE

[Denny]

IMO, a website needs to have a REAL INTERVIEW with Yuji Naka and discuss how THE PLAYERS feel about PSO (Xbox and GC). I would love to see what BS Yuji Naka would come up with to cover his own ass. I'm so sick and tired of all of these sugar coated ass interviews! "How are you doing today Mr. Naka? We are looking forward to Billy Crapper and the Giant Poop!"

Screw that!

I want interviews along the lines of "The Xbox owners feel like they are not getting their due even though they're paying a monthly fee." "Are you going to take advantage of the Xbox HD to deleiver REAL exclusive content and new areas? If not, why?" "Players of the GC version live in fear of their character data having to be terminated. After all of the various versions of PSO, why has your team failed to do work on these problems? "Congrats on the duping fix that was worked on for the Xbox version! Why wasn't this released sooner in order to send a message to consumers that you actually care about your product?"

That's the kind of interview Naka needs to sit through. He needs to know that people are fond of the game, but we're also getting sick and tired of the BS. All this does is put a further damper on Sega's botched up reputation.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Denny on 2003-07-18 15:09 ]</font>

[Outrider]

Um... I somehow doubt that Naka does server fixes. Just a hunch. Though he could definitely put pressure on somebody...

You know, it's a ported game. You get what you get. I'm amazed that people complain about Sonic Team when there are other developers that pretty much get away with murder. You know, Sonic Team games have been glitchy since day one. What's with the surprise? Some companies put in more time to debugging and testing than others. That's it.

Also... since when was Shinobi made by Sonic Team?

And I'm also personally looking forward to Billy... but I'm a platforming whore.

[satoshi1]

This is kinda off topic, but I'm also looking forward to billy, looks fun. Besides, it's a brand new game, give it a chance. Everybody thought that pikmin and animal crossing and various other games would suck, but look at how much they've sold.

[LunarShadowX]

Didn't AM2 produce Shinobi?

And Sonic Team did mention two new games, which were Sonic Heroes and Billy whatever it's called.

I think the recent non-entirely-new games were probably because all of Sega was under a lot of pressure to reduce costs while still generating profits. And what better way than to port existing games that didn't get to many people due to the lack of people owning a particular system.

Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, there is no doubt in that. However, from my point of view at least, some people just don't realise how good they have it. Arguing about the lack of support for a video game? In the grand scheme of things, do you know just how trivial such a thing is.

Whatever. Look, you paid for the game, you can complain. Just try to keep away the flaming. After all, you're still playing the game, aren't you?

[saffaya]

You know, it's a ported game. You get what you get.

uh ? what is that supposed to mean ?
Ported game = crap ?

I'm amazed that people complain about Sonic Team when there are other developers that pretty much get away with murder.

Could you please name a few precise examples ?

You know, Sonic Team games have been glitchy since day one. What's with the surprise? Some companies put in more time to debugging and testing than others. That's it.

You're new to video games, aren't you ?
Unless you can back your statement by pointing me to glitches in ST games since Sonic the Hedgehog, Phantasy Star, Nights, Burning Rangers, ..

ST's reputation and past achievements were not in the category 'glitchy products'.
Their decay dates (IMO) from 2-3 years ago.

[Outrider]

How rude.

But anyway, to quickly respond:

It's still a port. You bought it knowing it was a port. Please try and keep the complaining to a minimum.

Played any game made by Midway or published by THQ in the past few years? Not exactly the cream of the crop.

Sonic the Hedgehog games were loaded with glitches. Running through walls. Falling to your death for no apparant reason. I hardly played them and I've even experienced them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Outrider on 2003-07-20 14:08 ]</font>

[saffaya]

How rude.

Oh, you felt it that way ? Sorry, but your statements were quite rude too to ST's PAST achievements.

But anyway, to quickly respond:
It's still a port. You bought it knowing it was a port. Please try and keep the complaining to a minimum.

You're not answering or explaining anything.
I guess that for you then, Port game = crap ?

Played any game made by Midway or published by THQ in the past few years? Not exactly the cream of the crop.

My, the prospect of such an idea would not even scratch me.
Now, I like it how you compare ST to them ..

Sonic the Hedgehog games were loaded with glitches. Running through walls. Falling to your death for no apparant reason. I hardly played them and I've even experienced them.

That is not a valid reference.
I would like others to step forward and valid your claims.

I fell through the floor the first time I played Halo. And never again though I've completed it dozen of times and played more than a hundred hours, trying every stupid idea/action I could think of.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: saffaya on 2003-07-20 14:59 ]</font>

[Micah]

i so want to commit suicide right now..

on a note of topic relivance. i think 'sega team' needs to make better 'targeting system' for next game, or get a new day job.

[Outrider]

Yeah, I've no need to get into a jilted fanboy argument on a message board at the moment. So I was completely wrong and it'll never happen again!!1!

Now that that's done with, just a question about the targeting system: Anybody played Kingdom Hearts? I actually think that the targeting system from that game could work good for PSO. It's relatively simple to use and wouldn't require a whole gameplay rehaul like something similar to the Zelda engine would need. Also, it would make it quite easy to determine which character one might be casting a spell on. I don't mind the area of effect spells, but I feel that pinpointing a target could be useful, and it wouldn't necessarily ruin the game. Heck, being able to use items on other characters would help a lot, too.

Oh, and another thing... maybe work on the camera? I don't have too many complaints, really... It just doesn't strike me as being as good as possible. Perhaps instead of using both the C-stick and the D-Pad as the same shortcuts, they could use the C-stick as a camera stick? (I'm on GCN... not sure if it's the same on X-Box) Just throwing out some constructive criticism.

[Micah]

On 2003-07-20 15:46, Outrider wrote:
Yeah, I've no need to get into a jilted fanboy argument on a message board at the moment. So I was completely wrong and it'll never happen again!!1!

Now that that's done with, just a question about the targeting system: Anybody played Kingdom Hearts? I actually think that the targeting system from that game could work good for PSO. It's relatively simple to use and wouldn't require a whole gameplay rehaul like something similar to the Zelda engine would need. Also, it would make it quite easy to determine which character one might be casting a spell on. I don't mind the area of effect spells, but I feel that pinpointing a target could be useful, and it wouldn't necessarily ruin the game. Heck, being able to use items on other characters would help a lot, too.

Oh, and another thing... maybe work on the camera? I don't have too many complaints, really... It just doesn't strike me as being as good as possible. Perhaps instead of using both the C-stick and the D-Pad as the same shortcuts, they could use the C-stick as a camera stick? (I'm on GCN... not sure if it's the same on X-Box) Just throwing out some constructive criticism.



the best 3rd person shooting targeting system was on "jet force gemini" on the n64.. it was by far the best '3rd person shooting' targeting system.

as for first person targeting, that one goes to "goldeneye 007" also on the n64.

but as for PSO targeting system, bleh.. you need an entire new game physics system to work that one out.

[Outrider]

Oh. I wasn't thinking of shooting engines. You see, I know a lot of people want to be able to actually aim with their guns, but I think that might give those using guns an unfair advantage. Plus, I feel that it might make switching weapons on the fly a little awkward.

[Barubary6]

Video games are too expensive to make right now. In order to be a good game in modern times, so much money has to be spent on the game that they can't possibly make any money. The end result is that the good games dig companies deeper into a hole, and the mediocre games actually turn a profit.

THQ is profitable, and Square is lucky it got bought out. THQ games are crap. Most of Square's games are really good, but they were so expensive to make that they lost money on them. I heard (but can't confirm) they lost many millions of dollars on FF9, and that game is one of my favorites.

Ports are extremely profitable. A lot of people bought Capcom's GBA version of Super Mario World, even though most of the work of porting is automated by their tools!

-- Barubary

[Nerd]

Sonic Team owns.. i may bitch about pso like everyone else but i still play it thousands of gameplay hours later, 2 YEARS later, and so do alot of other people. Why? Its a fun, addictive game. It takes alot of talent to produce something like that. It has flaws, as all games do. It has done something few console games have, and it did it first so of course there are going to be inherent flaws..

..do you think the first mousetrap killed alot of mice? PSO is a brilliant idea for console gaming, and there is alot of work to be done to go from here, but its a great start. Just imagine where they can go from here.

if sega had the funds..................

[AxemPunanny]

On 2003-07-18 20:21, LunarShadowX wrote:
Arguing about the lack of support for a video game? In the grand scheme of things, do you know just how trivial such a thing is.

Whatever. Look, you paid for the game, you can complain. Just try to keep away the flaming. After all, you're still playing the game, aren't you?



Pretty much well put. We'll ALWAYS have complaints about a game. ALWAYS, something we wish was in a game, wished that something was fixed, wished that it had this, had that. Even if we are totally pleased with a game, we could always think of something(s) that would make the game better, hoping it would be there in the sequel.

True, ST could be do a better job in refining the game more, or fixing things. But I'm also sure that there are other factors there. One being, the well known fact that Sega as a whole, including the now independent development teams (i.e. ST, AM2, Amusement Vision, Overworks), have been hit by financial reasons (hence the demise of the Dreamcast). Not always have the funds can affect development and maintenance. In addition, time is as much a factor as money (i.e. deadlines). True, a developer/publisher could take more time, but of course that would mean delays. We all know about Nintendos reputation for delays. We could go on and on about our complaints. And we could have our doubts about the current state of the game, and even the next installment (ep3). For all we know, the very next true PSO, could be a complete over-haul and a damn good improvment. It could be the answer to all our complaints, and make use forget about the complaints we've had with the previous PSOs. Then again, we could probably find something to complain about it.

As far as the "lack" of online content on Xbox, we also got to mention that Microsoft is the publisher for PSO on Xbox, and has control over the servers. So it could take ST more time to actually put some content, if they even have that much control over it. Yes, I too would like to have some online content to take advantage of on Xbox. But, I'm not really complaining about it. I realize it's only been a 2-3 months since it came out, compared to GCN being out for almost a year. I'd have a problem if it's been out for half a year on Xbox, and only a couple things have been added here and there; I'm giving them a lil bit more time on that.

As far as Sega (Sonic Team and the other development teams), I have my own thoughts, but that I'd delve too much into it. I love them for their games, their innovations, at the same time, I know they make mistakes. But with the mediocre games here and there, there's always a games that are good, fun & addicting, and some that become classics (flaws or not). And that's what I've come to expect from Sega (and a few other companies - THQ/Midway not included).

BTW, Overworks developed Shinobi. They also made Skies of Arcadia (one great RPG on DC/GCN). Shinobi on PS2 was a good game, but I don't think it lived up to the standards of the classic on Genesis.

Yes, Nerd, if Sega only had the funds. Dreamcast is still my all time favorite system http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AxemPunanny on 2003-07-21 02:28 ]</font>

[Sedyne]

On 2003-07-18 20:21, LunarShadowX wrote:
Didn't AM2 produce Shinobi?

And Sonic Team did mention two new games, which were Sonic Heroes and Billy whatever it's called.

I think the recent non-entirely-new games were probably because all of Sega was under a lot of pressure to reduce costs while still generating profits. And what better way than to port existing games that didn't get to many people due to the lack of people owning a particular system.

Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, there is no doubt in that. However, from my point of view at least, some people just don't realise how good they have it. Arguing about the lack of support for a video game? In the grand scheme of things, do you know just how trivial such a thing is.

Whatever. Look, you paid for the game, you can complain. Just try to keep away the flaming. After all, you're still playing the game, aren't you?



Julap, i understand. I just think that ever since DreamCast died, Their game quality has just shattered. Yieks >_<

[neko-chan]

On 2003-07-18 07:19, rena-ko wrote:
well, you're free to, but as an importer you should know by yourself that importing always comes together with a bit of risk. noone forced you to import, you got burnt, its your own fault so i don't see any real purpose for you to whine now.
BS. I own about 100 videogames and 80 percent of them are Japanese or American Imported games.

The only risk you're subject when importing is paying or not the custom taxes. And yes, I'm being sarcastich.

AndyPandy's point is about the technical side of PSO. He is, logically, not able to understand the low level of QA that the developer put into these games.

We had:
- protocol issues (incredible: PPPoE not supported. This was truly incompetence);
- tons glitches (the shop/dupe bug anyone?);
- server patches that caused characters corruption (ask DangerousDJ about his level 190 FOnewearl).

Even more ironic, they even released a beta version for testing and evaluating purposes. What kind of results did they obtain with this beta? Players were able to dupe with the beta and with the final release. A great improvement!

The result is that they were forced to recall thousands of defective copies of the game and remarket thousands of new, *fixed* copies. Is this a profitable behavior for a company? I don't think so.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: neko-chan on 2003-07-21 07:47 ]</font>

[saffaya]

On 2003-07-21 07:35, neko-chan wrote:
The result is that they were forced to recall thousands of defective copies of the game and remarket thousands of new, *fixed* copies. Is this a profitable behavior for a company? I don't think so.

If I remember correctly, ST did not even RECALL v1.0 GC PSO properly speaking.
They did continue to sell it in shops until depleted (and then replaced by v1.1) as the fixed version wasn't available in shop for quite some time. You had to buy the defective, and then send it to SEGA for replacement.

[Micah]

jebus

[rena-ko]

On 2003-07-21 07:35, neko-chan wrote:

On 2003-07-18 07:19, rena-ko wrote:
well, you're free to, but as an importer you should know by yourself that importing always comes together with a bit of risk. noone forced you to import, you got burnt, its your own fault so i don't see any real purpose for you to whine now.



BS. I own about 100 videogames and 80 percent of them are Japanese or American Imported games.

The only risk you're subject when importing is paying or not the custom taxes. And yes, I'm being sarcastich.

AndyPandy's point is about the technical side of PSO. He is, logically, not able to understand the low level of QA that the developer put into these games.

We had:
- protocol issues (incredible: PPPoE not supported. This was truly incompetence);
- tons glitches (the shop/dupe bug anyone?);
- server patches that caused characters corruption (ask DangerousDJ about his level 190 FOnewearl).

Even more ironic, they even released a beta version for testing and evaluating purposes. What kind of results did they obtain with this beta? Players were able to dupe with the beta and with the final release. A great improvement!

The result is that they were forced to recall thousands of defective copies of the game and remarket thousands of new, *fixed* copies. Is this a profitable behavior for a company? I don't think so.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: neko-chan on 2003-07-21 07:47 ]</font>


...

ok, i'll try to explain.

if you buy a game in a shop right in your town (/country/continent), you have several warrants that cover your rights as a consumer.
in pso v1.0's case you got your disk replaced for free (yes you lost items, dupe-bug is still in the game blablabla).

if you import, the gamemaker's local branch wont help you with any problems. since v1.0 was not intended to be sold outside of japan its obvious that they only replace it for local residents.

the only thing i meant with 'no use whining about' was the fact that importers had a hard time to get their 1.1 replacement and i think i got that clear in my first post here.
nonetheless i'm sorry if you dont got out that right. still, thats no need to get all pissy about.


i own some imports as well. most where fine, some had little flaws (like the fsod bug while saving with the ps1 part of ps collection for gca). i could contact the shop that imported it for me but well, i can live with it.
its just that you dont get a guarantee that everything works and importers should know that since they arent normal consumers, they cant expect normal treatment in cases of waranties.


on the technical side, i'd say, pso v3 is a mediocre port with some enhancements and developements, but also with several bugs kept and even added in. thats old news and got pointed out by every other poster in this topic up to now. so there's no need to go on.

there's also no real need to discuss if or if not it was embarrassing for sonic team to recall. if or if not its laziness to still have several dupe bugs and glitches in each version. if or if not the beta was even neccessary despite for testing out nintendos hardware and servers.
spelling/translation errors, engrish, context errors, logical errors, table bugs (gibbles giving just 51 exp in offline ult), the actual game being third full version and still some old errors survived.

the game is finally released. there cant be done anything unless you patch it somehow or recall once again.

the mayor point is, despite meaningless venting, there is no real use to point out every tiny thing. when you play the game, do you spot errors and hate them by heart? or do you just enjoy the game? i mean, sonic team are just human. if other teams are better or not is quite irrelevant unless any other developer creates a compareable game.

finally, speaking for myself, i hope sonic team's next new pso (not ep.3 here) will be all new and less buggy.

[neko-chan]

On 2003-07-21 12:40, rena-ko wrote:
on the technical side, i'd say, pso v3 is a mediocre port with some enhancements and developements, but also with several bugs kept and even added in. thats old news and got pointed out by every other poster in this topic up to now. so there's no need to go on.

Yes, there is. Since it's nice to slap the ST's incompetence over the faces of ST's fanboys. ^_^


if or if not the beta was even neccessary despite for testing out nintendos hardware and servers.


At this point, the beta period was necessary if conducted in the right way. After three years and three main versions, this game is still defective.

What if you take the same Universitary exam for three times and you fail it every time? Don't you start to feel there's something wrong?


the mayor point is, despite meaningless venting, there is no real use to point out every tiny thing. when you play the game, do you spot errors and hate them by heart?

Well... "hate them by heart" no, not exactly, but when you play online and get disconnected every 10 minutes because the game doesn't support the most wide used DSL protocol and then you're forced to pay 100 or more Euros for a router to play the game just because ST programmers are a bunch on incompetent losers when it comes to networking... you know... you start to feel some emotions... I won't call them hate, but frustration... anger sometimes. I guess you felt them before, right? ^_^

In addition, I'd like to quote this document I found on a Web site devoted to homebrew programming (but their results can be used in a different fashion I think, such as cheating on PSO and playing copied games):

The GameCube is one of the only modern (and old) consoles without any real
homebrew development on it. This is mostly because Nintendo did a very good
job in protecting the GameCube from running custom, non-official program
code. In fact, they did such a great job as without Sega's PSO, there would
still not be a way to run homebrew code on the GameCube to this day. Recently,
Sega ported PSO (along with many other previous games) to the Xbox and the
GameCube. A friend knew that there was a way to exploit PSO to upload and
execute homebrew code and with a lot of his help, I was able to reverse
engineer a small part of the protocol and discover how to actually upload
the code.

If you want the link to that site send me a message.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: neko-chan on 2003-07-21 13:51 ]</font>

[Outrider]

On 2003-07-20 22:18, Barubary6 wrote:
Video games are too expensive to make right now. In order to be a good game in modern times, so much money has to be spent on the game that they can't possibly make any money. The end result is that the good games dig companies deeper into a hole, and the mediocre games actually turn a profit.

THQ is profitable, and Square is lucky it got bought out. THQ games are crap. Most of Square's games are really good, but they were so expensive to make that they lost money on them. I heard (but can't confirm) they lost many millions of dollars on FF9, and that game is one of my favorites.

Ports are extremely profitable. A lot of people bought Capcom's GBA version of Super Mario World, even though most of the work of porting is automated by their tools!

-- Barubary



My head hurts.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I just wanna make sure the facts are straight.

Square wasn't bought out as far as I know. I know Sony bought 19% of them to help recover from the major losses they experienced from the Final Fantasy Movie, and then they merged with Enix.

I know Capcom has worked on almost every portable version of Zelda, but I don't think they had anything to do with the Super Mario Advance games.

The rest of your facts are straight.

I remember on another message board devoted to Sonic Team, there were always a few topics about how Sonic Team was going down the tube. All they were released were ports. As everybody else has said, one has to understand that Sega could've just gone out of business instead of switching to a software developer. Now that they're no longer making hardware, they have to make sure they get a steady profit, since they don't have their own core user base anymore.

[Denny]

Maybe I have higher standards for Sega than some of the other people around here. In my opinion, their reputation is tarnished (and I do believe that they are to blame for it at times) and it looks like they don't care about their brand name at times.

When Sega does create an incredible game (I'll use Panzer Dragoon Orta as an example), it reminds me of how the company used to be. Smilebit took the time and made sure that Panzer Dragoon did not let down fans of the series. They made sure that Orta did justice to the previous shooters in the series. To me, Smilebit is one of the few Sega teams that actually cares about the Sega name.

When I think about Sonic Team...I can't help but to wonder what went wrong...

NiGHTS was a fantastic and memorable experience on Saturn and Sonic Adventure was a good enough experience for a launch game considering all of the SDK switches that took place during the development. When PSO first released for DC I thought it was a great idea and it was the first really enjoyable game that I got to play online. I like co-op games, especially the older arcade games like Sega's Quartet, the Gauntlet games and the beat'm ups like Ninja Turtles, Simpsons, etc.

Version 2 was going to fix the problems with 1 and provide new levels (Sega did nothing to inform people that the new levels were only for battle mode), so a lot of people were let down by the lack of 'new' things (plus the new fee that went along with it). Sega did very little to justify the monthly fee.

Sonic Adventure 2 closed out Sonic Team's DC work and..well I don't think Sonic Adventure 2 was a stellar sequel that Sega's mascot deserved. It seemed like Sonic Team didn't really put enough heart into the game. The graphics were great, but everything else was lacking in ways.

Episode 2 is headed to Gamecube while an unknown at the time variation of PSO is headed to the Xbox. Excitement falls to some hardcore PSOers when they realize Episode 2 is really just 2 brand new stages (I don't count the Temple and Ship since they were on the DC and the Seaside, Mountains and Jungle are not really whole stages), and there are no new techniques or play mechanics to go with it. On the bright side, there were 3 new characters and I was still kind of looking forward to playing with friends.

The game comes out in the US without a keyboard. Nintendo doesn't want to foot the bill for one and neither does Sega. Trying to type with the software keyboard just took the PSO experience down so many notches on the GC that I am sorry that I purchased the system in order to play PSO. I stuck around long enough to get my HUcaseal to level 90+, but I was still miffed as to why Sega would treat their product in such a way. I won't get into the disgusting double saves and the character losses because we've all heard the stories.

PSO Episode 1 and 2 is headed to Xbox! An extra class or character is rumored to be in this version and people are excited about the future again. In typical Sonic Team fashion, they do nothing to kill the rumors of the new class/character! Yuji Naka even goes on to mention that they could add another class or more characters to extend the shelf life of PSO Episode 1 and 2! You can use the mic to talk or use a USB keyboad if you wish! This sounds like the perfect version of PSO!

Dreams come crashing down...

Sonic Team sits on their ass when the duping patch could have been put into effect much earlier to at least try to save face. I'll give them props for finally getting something to Microsoft so trading is now back in effect on the Xbox version, but why wait so long? Unfortunately, there is no way to stop the duping in the GC version. Why? Why didn't Sonic Team catch these problems when beta testing on the GC was taking place? Players were reporting bugs and finding flaws before PSO got to the US.

The whole hacking thing on the Xbox has been blown up in order to make that version out to be trash, but it's far from as bad as most of the Nintendo fans make it out to be. Do people have the DC mags and pre-released items? Yes. Are some items tampered with? Yep. Do these itmes mess with my game? Nope. Even with these godly stat items you still see players getting their asses handed to them in Ultimate. Even better, since the easy method to duping is fixed (for now) the people that have the altered items hesitate to trade them. It's not hard to run across "I wish we could still dupe" or my "Can someone teach me how to dupe because I can't do the shop trick!" now that the patch is up. When are they going to send the fix to the EU ships? Why not upload the patch so all versions can be protected? *sigh*

I don't have a problem with what the other players are using on my team as long as I can get my EXP and they don't screw with my enjoyment of the game, but Sonic Team's decision making is worse than a crackhead looking for his next fix at times.

Of course with voice chat comes the idiots that think Xbox Live is now an excuse to promote racism and create rather disturbing symbol chat icons. I actually pitty the people that focus their energy on things like this. What makes it worse is that these people can't even back up the hate that they're trying to spread. I've seen this guy named Bruce Lee get his ass handed to him in a war of words with other minorities over Xbox Live so many times that most people just ignore him. It's a shame that Sonic Team/Sega of America doesn't pay attention to the feedback or except the footage that people are willing to send in which clearly shows players doing things which are a violation of the games rules and codes of conduct. Thank goodness for the mute button, but isn't the feedback supposed to mean something? Hello? Sonic Team? Pick up the damn phone!

But what are the fans of the game to do? It's great to see PSO fans that enjoy the Xbox and GC versions (hats off to you guys), but it's like a no win situation in my eyes. Some can try to enjoy the product for what it is. But I can't help but to wonder why Sega would allow one of their own creations to fall to levels like this? I always thought Phantasy Star was a series that was held in high regard to Sega. I guess only Panzer Dragoon (which might not get a sequel thanks to most Xbox gamers ignoring the game for other rubbish) and Virtua Fighter are the only two left.

The only thing I hope for is a chance for fans of PSO to be able to voice their opinions to Sega of America or Sonic Team. I tire of seeing Sega's reputation fall lower and lower due to their lack of action. I want to stick with the Xbox version until the newer quest come out, but now it's starting to set in that Sonic Team doesn't have any real plans to ever do anything spectacular to the Xbox and GC versions of PSO. If they planned to keep adding areas like the towers or something new that would advance the story and boost the enjoyment for the fans I would be thrilled.

Sorry for the rant. It just saddens me to see the company treat something that had such potential as a throw away title. Thank God for Smilebit! What little fondness for Sega that remains would be gone if not for them. Well Smilebit and Wow Entertainment (I loved House of the Dead 3).

Once again, my apologies.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Denny on 2003-07-21 16:57 ]</font>

[AxemPunanny]

On 2003-07-21 06:50, Sedyne wrote:

On 2003-07-18 20:21, LunarShadowX wrote:
Didn't AM2 produce Shinobi?

And Sonic Team did mention two new games, which were Sonic Heroes and Billy whatever it's called.

I think the recent non-entirely-new games were probably because all of Sega was under a lot of pressure to reduce costs while still generating profits. And what better way than to port existing games that didn't get to many people due to the lack of people owning a particular system.

Everyone has the right to voice their opinions, there is no doubt in that. However, from my point of view at least, some people just don't realise how good they have it. Arguing about the lack of support for a video game? In the grand scheme of things, do you know just how trivial such a thing is.

Whatever. Look, you paid for the game, you can complain. Just try to keep away the flaming. After all, you're still playing the game, aren't you?



Julap, i understand. I just think that ever since DreamCast died, Their game quality has just shattered. Yieks >_<



I don't know if their quality shattered. I think they've lost some consistency in quality. I think it's more like ever since they (Sega as a whole) put themselve in debt, quality has been less consistent, but they've always churned out good games and some classics.

[AndyPandy]

If you think about it, Sonic Team was hardly going to spend millions on developing a new Phantasy Star online when they where in so much finacial problems at the time. If I was in their situation, I too would have made a port of the old DC game with a few tweaks, just to get the money coming in again. There is no doubt about it that Phantasy Star is a great gaming experience, but it needs a new start. Hopefully ST are developing a completly new version of the series that makes use of the power of the XBOX and Gamecube.

[saffaya]

Smilebit took the time and made sure that Panzer Dragoon did not let down fans of the series. They made sure that Orta did justice to the previous shooters in the series. To me, Smilebit is one of the few Sega teams that actually cares about the Sega name.

You're damn right about that.
If Smilebit can churn out Gunvalkyrie, JSRF and Panzer Dragoon Orta, why can't ST ship a bugless PSO ?

If you think about it, Sonic Team was hardly going to spend millions on developing a new Phantasy Star online when they where in so much finacial problems at the time.

Nobody asked that of them.

If I was in their situation, I too would have made a port of the old DC game with a few tweaks, just to get the money coming in again.

With or without the bugs, some dating back to DC v1 ?
That IS the whole point.

[AndyPandy]

lol, ffs, what im saying is ST aint gonna spend loads of money on developing a new PSO when they can do a port of an old DC game. The whole damn point im trying to make is that they never had the resources at the time to spend time ironing out all the bugs in the game and rewriting it. Dont forget, at the time Sega was nearly bankrupt and I bet Sonic Team where a little worried about the situation.

[Denny]

On 2003-07-22 03:45, AndyPandy wrote:
lol, ffs, what im saying is ST aint gonna spend loads of money on developing a new PSO when they can do a port of an old DC game. The whole damn point im trying to make is that they never had the resources at the time to spend time ironing out all the bugs in the game and rewriting it. Dont forget, at the time Sega was nearly bankrupt and I bet Sonic Team where a little worried about the situation.



That's not really a good excuse at all. If Smilebit and Wow Entertainment could pull off great titles like Panzer Dragoon Orta, JSRF, and HOTD3 for Xbox, Sonic Team had more than enough resources to work on some of the problems in PSO Episode 1 and 2.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Denny on 2003-07-22 14:12 ]</font>

[AxemPunanny]

That's not really a good excuse at all. If Smilebit and Wow Entertainment could pull off great titles like Panzer Dragoon Orta, JSRF, and HOTD3 for Xbox, Sonic Team had more than enough resources to work on some of the problems in PSO Episode 1 and 2.



I agree to a degree. We all expect good developers to make good (at the very least) all the time. The more we gripe about somethings, the more we get down on a developer (many examples out there, besides ST).

Smilebit's masterpiece is Panzer Dragoon. JSRF is a very good game too, and HOTD3 is also a solid game. Gun Valkyrie is not bad, but IMO didn't live up to expectations nor it's potential. But is that all the games Smilebit made? 3? off Xbox. How many games did Wow make? Don't get me wrong, I love both those companies. In fact I love all of Sega's development teams. Didn't ST have all those Sonic games on GCN (3 or 4, ports or not), then PSO for 2 systems, GBA games, and future projects (Billy, new Sonic games, new PSO games). Their projects seem to be much larger than Smilebit and Wow. Hence, I'm sure they are taking alot of time for alot of projects. So I hardly think that they aren't working hard. But I'll argue this for everyone that does have gripes w/ST. Maybe they could drop/postpone a few more projects and take more time in a few at a time; make the game close to flawless. They could do that, but I also see that there is a business aspect to it. I'm sure they need to generate some finances. Before anyone says anything about "money hungry" or "stealing our money," there are companies so much worse than ST. Ports aren't always good. But also think of it this way, not everyone owned a Dreamcast, therefore not everyone owned/played DC games. Maybe they wanted to let GCN/Xbox/PS2 owners experience what they missed. And this situation isn't exclusive only to DC or ST games. Sometimes we wished a certain game from a certain system or company were on the system we were playing on. We can biatch, whine or complain all we want. We're all intended to. Heck, I'll do the same. I still have much respect for ST, flaws or not. I won't bash them much, even if we have valid reasons. I see it that there are so many other companies so much worse than ST. Funny how we complain more about companies that deserve/command more respect (EA, Squaresoft, Namco, Tendo, Sega). When they disappoint, they catch hell from us. Yet, we leave crap games made by certain companies alone, like, let's say, Acclaim? or THQ?. We say, oh that game is crap, then that's it, we leave it alone. We won't touch it, or even look at it. Yet, games we love, we'll bitch tha hell out of it, and sometimes even nitpick. As far as PSO, we complain so much, but yet we still play the damn game. Maybe we should go play another game (something better or crappy). Sorry, I wanted to vent just a lil bit too.









<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AxemPunanny on 2003-07-22 23:09 ]</font>

[Outrider]

Heh... We not only keep playing it... we keep paying for it too.

Something I just realized though... considering ST is just one development team... thay're putting out a lot of titles, aren't they? I'm trying to think of other development teams (not companies... teams) that put out that much. I may just be blanking out at the moment, but I don't think there are many.

[St_Botchua]

this is so good that we shell out 50 bucks to buy it 50 for broadband and 9 a month just to play

and dont forget st devloped everyones favorite little blue guy i still think there one of the best development teams out there

[ryomakuriyami]

Yay for offline!
Most of the complaints about PSO are solely online. We offliners have no such problems.
However, I for one at least try to sympathize with you guys and I'd be glad to, y'know, sign a petition or join with a bunch of people to send a WHOLE BUNCH of feedback to ST/Microsoft/Whatever.

[tennis_guy]

On 2003-07-18 15:08, Denny wrote:
IMO, a website needs to have a REAL INTERVIEW with Yuji Naka and discuss how THE PLAYERS feel about PSO (Xbox and GC). I would love to see what BS Yuji Naka would come up with to cover his own ass. I'm so sick and tired of all of these sugar coated ass interviews! "How are you doing today Mr. Naka? We are looking forward to Billy Crapper and the Giant Poop!"

Screw that!

I want interviews along the lines of "The Xbox owners feel like they are not getting their due even though they're paying a monthly fee." "Are you going to take advantage of the Xbox HD to deleiver REAL exclusive content and new areas? If not, why?" "Players of the GC version live in fear of their character data having to be terminated. After all of the various versions of PSO, why has your team failed to do work on these problems? "Congrats on the duping fix that was worked on for the Xbox version! Why wasn't this released sooner in order to send a message to consumers that you actually care about your product?"

That's the kind of interview Naka needs to sit through. He needs to know that people are fond of the game, but we're also getting sick and tired of the BS. All this does is put a further damper on Sega's botched up reputation.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Denny on 2003-07-18 15:09 ]</font>




I agree, so very true