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[Robo47]

What the hell is happening to this country?
They're taking away the Ten Commandments.
They're thinking of changing the Pledge of
Allegiance because it says "one nation under god".

Soon this friggan' country will be like the Soviet
Union, You won't be able to do or say things because
"it's not politically correct".

I can't stand politically correct people because
they are all like "They're not retarded they're
specially gifted". Yeah right, those people need to
go read a fuckin' Websters dictionary!

Watch, soon Hobo's will be Financially Challenged,
they'll take away Newgrounds.com because it is offensive, and games or movies like Halo and The
Matrix will be banned because they're too violent.

Fuck that! I thought this was the U.S.A. not
LetsBlameProblemsOnWhiteChristiansandViolenceville !

Let's just send Uncle Bob to give a rubby to all
government officials! That'll learn 'em!

[Reece]

It's the immagrents that bring up the god thing. America will ot do anything about it. The Muzlems complain about us fighting Afganistan and us not saying One Nation Under Allia. Geez America is FREE but we made this country under god. It will stay that way. Whats next is the McDonalds M too offencive to you Immagrents?!

[ABDUR101]

...I was under the impression that since the US tries to impart itself throughout the world, and since it portrays respect and dignity, that political correctness was one of the forefront attributes it was trying to portray.


..oh God, if only sarcasm could be felt, I'd of killed a thousand people with what I just said. XD

As for taking away the ten commandments and the whole "under God" thing, it's called division of church and state. And it's that way because the US is such a melting pot of people from all walks of life. The Ten Commandments don't apply to every person, due to their own beleifs. If you have the Ten Commandments, you'd need to incorporate teachings and beleifs and all that from other religions. Like for example the 99 Names of Allah could be engraved on a wall or the Pillars of Islam would need to be on display, etc.

And then you'd have even more people pissed because church and state are to be divided. Thats just how it is, for better or worse. =)

And in most cases, being politically correct is more or less being kind and not demeaning and derogatory.

[NKOTB]

Abdur, you obviously have no clue what "separation of church and state" means.

Henry VIII made himself head of church and king which began persecution of all who were not his religion.

The Pilgrims and everyone else who came here, did it to practice their own religion without being persecuted. There are other reasons as well, but that is one primary reason.

Madison wrote in the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (notice, it does not say separation of church and state).

Nowhere does it say separation of church and state in the US Constitution. It is obvious when considering the time the Constitution was written, all the first amendment implied (pertaining to religion) was that there would never be a law passed creating a national religion, nor would someone be prohibited from practicing their religion.

Furthermore, all who signed the Constitution did so in the year of the "Lord", a clear sign that reference to a higher power was not a creation of a national religion, nor an endorsement of any religion.

The 10 commandment sculpture was not a law respecting a religion, nor did it infringe on anyones religion.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NKOTB on 2003-10-02 22:01 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NKOTB on 2003-10-02 22:02 ]</font>

[ABDUR101]

Damn me for not paying attention in American History.

Thanks for clearing it up though. =)

[JavaMoon]

On 2003-10-02 21:59, NKOTB wrote:
The 10 commandment sculpture was not a law respecting a religion, nor did it infringe on anyones religion.


It was placed at a courthouse. Courts of law aren't based on the ten commandments so it shouldn't be there. It's not fair to have one religion's laws placed in front of a courthouse when not everyone that's being tried is Christian.

[_Sinue_]

KNOTB, you fail to take into account that America was, at that time, comprised almost entirely of the Christian religeon or factions thereof, such as the Puritans. There were no Muslim, Buddist, Jewish, or other strong religeous communities in the 13 colonies at that time. (Aside from the Native Americans, but they were seen as their own nation/s seperate from the United States, and thus, not considered under the constitution of the new government.)

It wasn't until much later in this nations history that immigrants from other parts of the globe started flooding into the States, bringing their own cultural flavor to the American canvas and giving us the "Melting Pot" nickname.

I personally agree with the seperation of church and state. If you want to practice religeon, that's your choice and your freedom. It doesn't have a place (aside from historical) in our government, on our currency, or as a part of our school curriculum.

[HotWaterDeath]

Wasn't the whole "seperation of church and state" pushed within this past century? Geese people talk about it like it was a founding principle of this country. Next you'll hear people talking about how the Declaration of Independence is a "godless" document. Some atheists/agnostics are as bad as a frothing mouthed, headbobbing bible thumpers.

America is my home, therefore I love it, though it's FAR from perfect.

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-03 01:44, JavaMoon wrote:

It was placed at a courthouse. Courts of law aren't based on the ten commandments so it shouldn't be there. It's not fair to have one religion's laws placed in front of a courthouse when not everyone that's being tried is Christian.



If you believe that the court is not based on the 10 commandments, then you should not care that the sculpture is there. You would have to consider the sculpture irrelevant.
Also, the 10 commandments are not "one religions laws".

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-03 03:50, _Sinue_ wrote:
KNOTB, you fail to take into account that America was, at that time, comprised almost entirely of the Christian religeon or factions thereof, such as the Puritans. There were no Muslim, Buddist, Jewish, or other strong religeous communities in the 13 colonies at that time. (Aside from the Native Americans, but they were seen as their own nation/s seperate from the United States, and thus, not considered under the constitution of the new government.)

It wasn't until much later in this nations history that immigrants from other parts of the globe started flooding into the States, bringing their own cultural flavor to the American canvas and giving us the "Melting Pot" nickname.

I personally agree with the seperation of church and state. If you want to practice religeon, that's your choice and your freedom. It doesn't have a place (aside from historical) in our government, on our currency, or as a part of our school curriculum.




First of all, you don't know what I take into account and what I don't, so don't assume anything.

I also agree with the separation of church and state as it pertains to the creation of a national religion.
I personally think that the since it wouldn't hurt anyone to live by the 10 commandments, it doesn't hurt to have them in the courthouse.
For the record (before you assume I am a Bible thumper) I don't live by the 10 commandments, and have not been to church in probably 15 years.
I am defending the position of the sculpture being there, because I see nothing wrong with it. I also feel that if the state of alabama wants to put that in their own courthouse, they should be allowed to. The US Constitution never said a state could not have its own religion, therefore in my opinion if a state wants to promote a religion (and you can say Alabama has), and the people don't like it, either move out, or mobilize and get your people in office.

Just so we all now, a CNN/USA Today poll found that 77% of people in this country (not just Alabama) feel the same way about that 10 Commandment sculpture as I do.

If you don't like, get da F out!

[Bradicus]

If you dont like it get the F out? I dont think people actually think about what they are saying when they use that phrase. Sometimes, this is not an option at all. Thinking of a country like a bad steakhouse is not a very good way to give it culture and sophistication.

Personally, i dont believe in america's "melting pot" Idea. This endorses assimilation, and quashes the independance (which americans are so proud of) of those who do not wish to become what everyone else already is.

And as for the blaming of a specific group for the woes of a nation, its just plain stupid. The society at large is often the problem.

[ABDUR101]

On 2003-10-03 06:31, NKOTB wrote:
If you believe that the court is not based on the 10 commandments, then you should not care that the sculpture is there. You would have to consider the sculpture irrelevant.
Also, the 10 commandments are not "one religions laws".


Actually, it would still be relevant because it can be seen as showing partiality. Thus why I said to make it seem fair, there would have to be other religious peices on display as well.



The US Constitution never said a state could not have its own religion, therefore in my opinion if a state wants to promote a religion (and you can say Alabama has), and the people don't like it, either move out, or mobilize and get your people in office.

Thats a good idea in thought, but in practice not so good.

If each state has the ability to have it's own religion, and then promote it, what happens when the majority of states all have a certain religion? And I doubt Islam is going to be anywhere on the spectrum, along with many, many other religions. In doing so, people are going to feel indifferent about their state, and when it comes to trials and all of that, the issue of someone not following that state's religion being tried unjustly based on their beleifs come into play.

And the whole "move out" thought, pfft. Thats just ignorance.

"Oh, don't like how it's done? Get the hell out." Real nice. =

And to mobilize and get "your people" in office. Alot easier said than done.



Just so we all now, a CNN/USA Today poll found that 77% of people in this country (not just Alabama) feel the same way about that 10 Commandment sculpture as I do.

Unfortunately I'm sure the majority don't see what having the 10 Commandments at a courthouse signifies.

Sure, if you know of, beleive in or follow the 10 Commandments, it's no more than a passing thought, and it would prolly make you feel good.

But, for those who don't, and who see the 10 Commandments as more of an icon for a religion that they don't beleive in, it's offensive. Imagine going to a courthouse to stand trial, hoping that it will be fair and just, and knowing that no matter your beleifs you're going to be tried as a human being.

...then you walk passed the 10 Commandments.

And no, not saying that everyone inside the courthouse is a bible basher, but that thought would enter your mind, and anyone who see's the trial and how those inside act might think it as well. Worst case scenario is that everyone thinks you're being tried in a Christian court when you're not a Christian, so they think you're getting judged unfairly.



If you don't like, get da F out!

Does anyone realise how that phrase sounds? It sounds worse than children playing in a sandbox. =/

[NKOTB]

This is getting ignorant and I don't have time to argue with people who get bothered by the US using "god" on things. Get over it. Or get da F out!

And the only reason I said the sculpture was irrelevant was because I was responding to someone who said "Courts of law aren't based on the ten commandments".

You can all stop whining about God now. I didn't realize how harmful God had been to everyone here. Sorry.

[ABDUR101]

...well I thought we were going to have an interesting discussion. =

We'll just agree to disagree, it's ok.

[PontiusR]

George Bush=International Terrorist





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PontiusR on 2003-10-03 12:14 ]</font>

[tank1]

gotta agree there Bush invades iraq its been like 113 days since the end of iraq war 2 and no WMD'S.
and now there targetting Iran for having nukes all america is doing is saying we can nuke you but the rest of there world cant.
all they are gonna do is start another arms race like if you search for it youll find this it was in the mirror a while back but apparently since britain wont have son of star wars in there america is going to plan to put actual nuke silo's in space to rain death down on everyone.
But in the end i give america 60 years tops before its destroyed by downtrodden middle easterns using dirty bombs and nukes to make america a waste land for millions of years.
sorry i drifteed off but it had to be said.

[Jaks]

I personally agree with the seperation of church and state. If you want to practice religeon, that's your choice and your freedom. It doesn't have a place (aside from historical) in our government, on our currency, or as a part of our school curriculum.



You couldn't be more wrong! On every dollar bill you see it says "In GOD we trust".

[_Sinue_]

First of all, you don't know what I take into account and what I don't, so don't assume anything.

I don't know what you take into account in your own mind and how it affects your beliefs - but insofar as your posts, you failed to recognise the condition of the 13 colonies when our Constitution was drafted and incorperate that into your argument. It was a game of politics - a small body of founding fathers and statesmen trying to unify the colonies against Brittan and keep peace between them at the same time. Many of the colonies didn't even want to form a union to begin with - so it was very much a game of politics even then, with bows and concessions to please the masses in order to accomplish a greater good. This is why you see generic terms like "God" and "Lord" in the drafts - and not specific names or examples out of any one reliegeon. It's also why you see the phrase "All men are created equal", despite the fact that slaves were being shipped in en masse.

If you don't want confusion over your beliefs, then state your beliefs more completely. I only commented on your post, and nothing more.

-Jaks, I realize what's on the dollar bill. I simply don't think it belongs there.

[JavaMoon]

On 2003-10-03 13:36, Jaks wrote:
You couldn't be more wrong! On every dollar bill you see it says "In GOD we trust".


I always thought of God in that phrase as being just a general description of a higher power. God could mean Alla, Vishnu, Buddha, Hotoke, Kami or whatever. *shrug*

[JavaMoon]

On 2003-10-03 12:04, NKOTB wrote:
This is getting ignorant and I don't have time to argue with people who get bothered by the US using "god" on things. Get over it. Or get da F out!

And the only reason I said the sculpture was irrelevant was because I was responding to someone who said "Courts of law aren't based on the ten commandments".

You can all stop whining about God now. I didn't realize how harmful God had been to everyone here. Sorry.


This is getting ignorant because you are getting ignorant. Apparently you don't seem to give a rat's ass about anyone else's beliefs except your own and your response to a different perspective is "If you don't like it, leave." Hey, if you don't like the fact that not everyone believes in Christianity and that symbols and artworks supporting one particular religion in an area where impartiality is supposed to be the proceedure, then you leave. *shrug*

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-03 15:22, JavaMoon wrote:

Hey, if you don't like the fact that not everyone believes in Christianity and that symbols and artworks supporting one particular religion in an area where impartiality is supposed to be the proceedure, then you leave. *shrug*



HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT SCULPTURE AFFECT IMPARTIALITY?

If you say that sculpture affected impartiality then you are saying all decisions made in that court were not impartial!!!

Do you understand how stupid you are?

I only responded because you callled me ignorant. Now that we have both called each other names, I am officially done here.

[Inu_Ranma]

*Whap!*

I hate it when people say stuff like this. God could NOT be Buddha! Gautama Buddha was a REAL person, whose name was Siddhartha! Buddhism is not a religion. If you base an argument on the fact that Buddhism is a religion than you invalidate your argument solely on the fact that if it's based on one bit of misinformation, than it may very well be based on lots of misinformation.

Buddhism: Philosophy based in the teachings of Gautama Buddha, who never was, is not, and never will be a god. Philosophies and religions coexist where religions are mutually exclusive. This is why you have Moslem Buddhists, Christian Buddhists, Athistic Buddhists, Shinto (the national religion of Japan) Buddhists, and Pure Land Buddhists (a faction of Buddhism which is the only thing in the whole philosophy that approaches the state of a religion, but still not really.

Don't base arguments on misinformation or on generalizations. It invalidates your arguments.

In another subject, the phrase 'if you don't like it then get out,' completely invalidates the idea of a Democracy. Granted, Democracy is simply an illusion, in America (we are a Democratic Republic), but it's still an ideal, should we ever achieve an educated populace.

This post was mostly on a tangent, but I feel that when people argue, they should argue using concrete statement and fact, not non-fact and generalizations, which are never true (including this one).

[PontiusR]

"god" isn't real, therefore he does not belong in the plane of reality we call America.

Yes, religion causes more war than anything else...ever. Proven fact.

The biggest terrorist ever to live was George Bush, under his rule progression has halted on nearly every front except arms production. Sad thing is none of you will ever know how many civilians were killed in Iraq. CNN ain't gonna tell you.

Yes, I am a socialist but not a communist. And yes, I'm very tired.

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-04 22:40, PontiusR wrote:
Sad thing is none of you will ever know how many civilians were killed in Iraq. CNN ain't gonna tell you.



You're right, because Saddam didn't keep records.

BTW, I could less about the Iraqis who get killed. I care more about getting over strep throat than i do 34958435476593 dead Iraqis.

[Shattered_weasel]

On 2003-10-04 23:01, NKOTB wrote:


On 2003-10-04 22:40, PontiusR wrote:
Sad thing is none of you will ever know how many civilians were killed in Iraq. CNN ain't gonna tell you.



You're right, because Saddam didn't keep records.

BTW, I could less about the Iraqis who get killed. I care more about getting over strep throat than i do 34958435476593 dead Iraqis.



OMFG.....this has got to be one of the smartest people on the face of the earth......

o and about G.W. being a terrorist its funny that this kid is probably 14 years old and any thing that G.W. does won't affect him any way unless he wants to marry some one from the same gender or go to a war in Iraq.

and as for the war.....you know the people going in the war are for it. Have you ever thought about that. Doubtfully

[starhealer]

Buddhism: Philosophy based in the teachings of Gautama Buddha, who never was, is not, and never will be a god. Philosophies and religions coexist where religions are mutually exclusive. This is why you have Moslem Buddhists, Christian Buddhists, Athistic Buddhists, Shinto (the national religion of Japan) Buddhists, and Pure Land Buddhists (a faction of Buddhism which is the only thing in the whole philosophy that approaches the state of a religion, but still not really.


You know, in my religion class I attempted to state something to this effect and I was told, quite frankly and rudely, that I was totally off. According to my Eastern Religions teacher (who was Buddhist...), Buddhism is a religion. Personally, I think it's a philosophy.

So he could be misinformed as to the whole religion aspect. Though I know of no one that claims Buddha a god.

And George W. is an idiot, but not quite a terrorist. He's more the spoiled brat that's looking to have his own way. Unfortunately, that involves destroying other people's lives whilst he sits happily at his ranch eating expensive food.

...I don't like him.

On the subject, I don't have a particular problem with the Ten Commandments being shown at a courthouse, but I understand that others can feel intimidated by it. And if they don't want to take it down, they can at least represent other religious codes and precepts. It's not like it could hurt anyone.

[Morfos]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

That means nolaw should be made that is baised towards religion, for example these would violate the 1st Amendment.

-No Gay Marraige*
-Being put under Oath even when one is an Atheist*
-Death sentence for lying under oath
-Public schools being Christian schools^
-Unable to practice certain religions
-Banning Stem Cell research for religious reasons*
-Banning Abortion for religious reasons*
-Executing Muslims,Jews,Christians etc....

[nothing]-What we never had, never will have
*-What conservatives want or have
^-What we used to have and conservatives want

[LollipopLolita]

On 2003-10-05 00:18, starhealer wrote:
You know, in my religion class I attempted to state something to this effect and I was told, quite frankly and rudely, that I was totally off. According to my Eastern Religions teacher (who was Buddhist...), Buddhism is a religion. Personally, I think it's a philosophy.

So he could be misinformed as to the whole religion aspect. Though I know of no one that claims Buddha a god.


Real true buddhism isn't a religion but a philosophy or a way of life as illustrated by the eightfold path. But the different cultural influences has made different strains of Buddhism that are religions. For exmaple: mahayana buddhism is a religion, so is theravada buddhism, so is zen buddhism, shingon buddhism, tendai buddhism, nichiren buddhism and won buddhism, and each has different beliefs. Buddha isn't a god, Buddha is just a word that means the enlightened one, and anyone can be a Buddha theoratically, and there are more than one Buddha. There is no Gods in true Buddhism. But in certain strains of buddhism like mahayana, Gautama is worshipped as a saint. In certain places where the culture has been mixed with Buddhism, or different beliefs like Taoism or Confucius, Buddha or the various Buddhas are worshipped as a God, and some families adopt one particular Buddha that has an aspect that they would like to worship. The Buddha Kuan Yin for example is worshipped by some people for her/his virtue of compassion and forgiveness.

So both your teacher and you are right and wrong.

[PontiusR]

On 2003-10-04 23:05, Shattered_weasel wrote:


On 2003-10-04 23:01, NKOTB wrote:


On 2003-10-04 22:40, PontiusR wrote:
Sad thing is none of you will ever know how many civilians were killed in Iraq. CNN ain't gonna tell you.



You're right, because Saddam didn't keep records.

BTW, I could less about the Iraqis who get killed. I care more about getting over strep throat than i do 34958435476593 dead Iraqis.



OMFG.....this has got to be one of the smartest people on the face of the earth......

o and about G.W. being a terrorist its funny that this kid is probably 14 years old and any thing that G.W. does won't affect him any way unless he wants to marry some one from the same gender or go to a war in Iraq.

and as for the war.....you know the people going in the war are for it. Have you ever thought about that. Doubtfully



I'm 19, but if you're a US citizen ever decision your leader makes affects you...look at gas prices when we change foreign policy.

Yes, I guess I am a bit biased, my older brother fought in the Zapatista Rebellion and my other brother works in Syria. Bush not a terrorist? From a purely domestic perspective, no he's just an idiot. But if you are sitting in your home in Iraq playing PSO and a bomb falls on your house killing your family, how does that make George Bush ANY different from Osama bin Laden?

[starhealer]

Perspective is always the key. Hence the whole debate about if the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse is right or not.

Hmm...about the Buddhism--makes sense. We only learned about Mahayana, Zen and Theravada Buddhism, so I can see where my teacher took up the "Buddhism is a religion and if you feel it's a philosophy you're horribly wrong" ideal. She was Zen Buddhist, I believe. Don't remember terribly well.

I find Buddhism fascinating simply for the fact that it doesn't have a god, so to speak and is based on philosophical ideals and the advancement of one's own self. It's an interesting perspective.

[bordering]

hrm, well, let's take a look at the ten commandments and see how they stack up in terms of being relavent to our court system.


"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
basically this says you can't worship any god besides the christian god that moses was blathering on about. hrm, wait a sec... isn't that a direct CONTRADICTION of the freedom of religion clause in the constituion? methinks so... not off to a good start here.


"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
this one is pretty much the same as above. unless, of course, there's something in the constituion making it ok to stone the shit out of hindus, catholics, etc. for having statues dedicated to their gods/saints/whatever on american soil (and i really don't think there is). 0/2 that pertain in any way to any form of the american constituion ever.



"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. ::sits and waits to get arrested for having taken the lord's name in vain:: ::crickets chirp ::remembers freedom of speech and religious freedom:: PHEW. this one doesn't have any relavence either.


"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
america totally shuts dowm on suday doesn't it? as decreed by LAW? erm, i hope not, 'cause i feel really bad for all those shmoes out there working their asses off right now, they're breaking teh law!!!11one (psst: no, they're not).

we're at 0/4



"Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee."
nopers. that one doesn't apply either. i'm perfectly free to dishonor my father and mother in a MULTITUDE of ways. from calling them shit eating fuckos to their faces to becoming a stipper, i can do as i like in terms of the abstract notion of "dishonoring" them. this makes 0/5. that's (in case you flunked third grade math), half of the 10 commandments that have no bearing on our legal system WHATSOEVER. whee. let's do the rest just for fun.



"Thou shalt not kill."
look!!! i found one! this applies... it's illeagal to murder people. except, erm, y'know in terms of the state killing people by leathal injection and waging wars that were almost totally unprovoked. ::tugs collar nervously:: but, just for fun, let's say this gives 1/6.



"Thou shalt not commit adultery."
well, i could cheat on my spouse as much as i want and not face any legal reprecussions besides divorce proceedings (-if- my spouse were to not like such behavior). but there aren't any LAWS governing what -consenting- adults do in a marrige as far as i know, so i think this is a miss too. 1/7


"Thou shalt not steal."
whoa.... another one! good going. that one's pretty cut and dry (unless i want to get sarcastic about imperialism, which i don't). 2/8



"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
i suppose this could be extrapolated to confer that you shouldn't perjur yourself or lie under oath, so, since i'm in a good mood, this puts us at 3/9.



"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."
hahahaha, this brings us to 10, and freaking ameican culture is based so strongly on keeping up with the jonese, with ZERO regulation against such a thing, that even if the rest coincided perfectly with the modern american legal ethic, the damn thing should be taken down just for the sake of too much irony.

so, to recap exactly 3/10 of the ten commandmants have anything in common with the american legal system.

now WHY exactly should they be up in our courts of law? hmmm? we may as well post the ancient Roman 12 tables in our courthouses (i could break them down, but you can have all the fun to yourself by going here and reading them http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/12tables.html). our system of law wasn't taken exclusively from the bible as some brainwashed crazy xtian types woud have us belive, it was drawn from a multitude of sources including drawing heavily on roman law, greek law, and the law system of the euorpean countires of the day.

there's NO go reason for a country that has a seperation of church and state to have some quaint little christain doctrine that has little to do with legal proceedings posted in courts of law.

and you may argue, "but durr foudink fadders didn really wanna sperehate church and state". erm, well, maybe not. i dunno, i wasn't there and i haven't studied the constituion for a while. they did want freedom of religion though (in terms of being able to practice their various xtian religions in peace, without fearing persecution from the Church of England).

in ANY case, just 'cause THEY thought a certain way, doesn't by any strectch of the imagination make it right or even sensible. THEY also favored keeping african american people as slave labor (wasn't this in the constituion? i dunno, i havent thought about this stuff in years). THEY also favored only allowing RICH (i.e. landowning) WHITE men to be able to participate in the legal/political system. we don't do either of those things anymore, do we? WHY NOT?! 'CAUSE THEY DON'T FREAKING MAKE SENSE AND THEY AREN'T HOW A CIVILIZED NATION COMPORTS ITSELF.

if you start making the argument that "evertink the founding fadders did is teh c00l", then your argument falls apart fast.

there is no logical place for the integration of one particular religion into the public establishments of this country. just like there is no logical sense in keeping black people as slaves. maybe people of the past wouldn't agree with those notions, but anyone with an ounce of common sense today see that it's true.

america of today strives in some senses to be a civilized nation. one of these senses is that most people realize that not everyone is white bread protestant anymore. in fact, in many parts of the nation, white bread protestants are in the minority now. there are people here from hundreds of different faiths. the ten commandments serves only to isolate the growing MAJORITY of people who aren't the ten commandmen type of christian. so it needs to go.

in other news, dubya is the worst thing that's happened to this country in a loooong time. i don't follow politics anymore, it's just too infuriating. the whole thing is such a fucking mess i don't even know where to start on the particulars. you would have to be missing a LOT of chromosomes to not understand that this country is in a far worse place than it was at the end of clinton's term (not that ol billy was perfect, but rather the FAR lesser of two evils).

first off, the economy. IT FUCKING FELL APART. HELLO?! now i realize that you're all little kids (for the most part) or just your average guy who doesn't know shit about the way that Big Money works in america. i don't know THAT much about it either, all i know is that i know a few people who have recently lost millions of dollars in the stock market. and that SUCKS! it fucking sucks because we are NOT an island, there's a lot of forieng money in our market... or at least there used to be, but people overseas who may have been leery of us before FUCKING HATE US NOW. people who were our freinds are leery of us. and people who already FUCKING HATED US are flying planes into our nicest buildings. not... good... all of this turmoil results in unstable and severly weakened markets. (there's a lot more to it than that, but that's a big problem.)

but, oh, gee, i guess the tax cuts for the wealthy softened the blow for people like that. oh, boy, that was REAL useful. remember how there was no deficit at the end of clinton's term? remember the term SURPLUS?! it's ALL gone! where did it go?! it went back to the richest 10% of people! it's sheer madness; especially since the short term goal of the programme was to incite people to go out and spend more money than they would have otherwise. dude, when you are already sitting on millions of dollars, a few more (even a few more million) isn't gonna stimulate your spending. wheras giving large tax cuts to the middle class and poor wouldn't only make sense in terms of y'know fairness and stuff, but it would also result in more of it being put immediately back into the economy, 'cause middle and lower income people have more unfufilled wants than rich people. also, anyone who's not a moron can see that it doesn't work in the long term in terms of the country getting out of debt, and it doesn't work at ALL for the non-uber rich 90% of the american population.

::seethes::

and, iraq, HOLY ZOMBIE JESUS, IRAQ. as if tax cuts and afghanistan weren't bad enough... IRAQ. i mean, someone pinch me i must be having a bad dream. first off, BEFORE we even went into iraq, there were numerous UN reports and UN weapons inspectors saying that iraq had little to no "WMD" capability. to boot, the iraqui government AGREED to allow inspectors to come back in and have FULL ACCESS to wherever to double check their work. did dubya allow this? noooooo. just bombs away. there's just SO much wrong here, it's just SO freaking overwhelming.

if you're from another country, please know that not all americans are like the jingoist kid up there. not all americans agree that killing people for no good reason (other than to steal/control their oil supply) is a good thing.

fuck. this is part of why i play so much pso. so i can not think of how nastily overrun this country has been. if there was any justice in this world, bush would be impeached. fuck, clinton was impeached for lying about pussy. THAT'S SO LAME. bush has commited numerous warcrimes and violtaed just as many international treaties.

so... embarrasing...

and not 'cause i hate this country, either, but because i rather like it. and i hate to see it being raped by that evil idiot and his cronies.

also, buddhism can be a religion. it can be a philosophy. just like most religions, actually, come to think of it.

it is most often thought of as a religion by most of its indiginous asian following.
people who aren't as, erm, tradiontional as that may choose to view it as a philosophy. sorta it's a class difference, an asian farmer who's a buddist likely thinks himself to be religious. a white professor who's a buddhist likely thinks themselves to be adhering to a philosophy.

[Wewt]

Religion and politics don't mix. Religion and anything don't mix.

[Bradicus]

On 2003-10-05 18:40, bordering wrote:
Stuff that made more sense than anything else in this thread


Well said



in ANY case, just 'cause THEY thought a certain way, doesn't by any strectch of the imagination make it right or even sensible. THEY also favored keeping african american people as slave labor (wasn't this in the constituion? i dunno, i havent thought about this stuff in years). THEY also favored only allowing RICH (i.e. landowning) WHITE men to be able to participate in the legal/political system. we don't do either of those things anymore, do we? WHY NOT?! 'CAUSE THEY DON'T FREAKING MAKE SENSE AND THEY AREN'T HOW A CIVILIZED NATION COMPORTS ITSELF.


Finally, someone who can pull their head out of their ass long enough to realize that the "all powerfull" American constitution was made by mortals. The founding fathers of america had all of the same corruptions as the leaders in europe and around the world. It seems totally ignorant to fall back on rules made in an era gone by, especially one that had more problems than this one. Its kinda like asking Napolian about world peace...



first off, the economy. IT FUCKING FELL APART. HELLO?! now i realize that you're all little kids (for the most part) or just your average guy who doesn't know shit about the way that Big Money works in america. i don't know THAT much about it either, all i know is that i know a few people who have recently lost millions of dollars in the stock market. and that SUCKS! it fucking sucks because we are NOT an island, there's a lot of forieng money in our market... or at least there used to be, but people overseas who may have been leery of us before FUCKING HATE US NOW. people who were our freinds are leery of us. and people who already FUCKING HATED US are flying planes into our nicest buildings. not... good... all of this turmoil results in unstable and severly weakened markets. (there's a lot more to it than that, but that's a big problem.)


Canada has suffered from SARS, mad cow, and West Nile. Economic experts said that it would have reduced the canadian dollar to half of the american... but than GW had his wars... and the canadian dollar raised significantly! Thanks George!
You guys spend billions on war, we pour our meager finances into meeting the Kyoto proticol (you know, the one that tells us to stop flooding the atmosphere with harmfull gasses, so our great grandkids dont have three heads, and live in a world where winter is boiling hot)



if you're from another country, please know that not all americans are like the jingoist kid up there. not all americans agree that killing people for no good reason (other than to steal/control their oil supply) is a good thing.


Money makes the world go 'round, and oil companies make it spin like a motherfucker.



bush has commited numerous warcrimes and violtaed just as many international treaties.


but the US made so many of the treaties, why cant it break a few? (sarcasm... duh!)



and not 'cause i hate this country, either, but because i rather like it. and i hate to see it being raped by that evil idiot and his cronies.


just thoght that i would point this out so you dont get flamed as badly.



All together, a well thought out retort. My english teacher would be proud... have a gold star!

[NKOTB]

Bordering: thanks for stealing George Carlins material and posting it.

[Getintothegame]

Ermmm... I agree with Robo.

They ARE going too far with all this.

[bordering]

Well said
heh, thanks.


Finally, someone who can pull their head out of their ass long enough to realize that the "all powerfull" American constitution was made by mortals. The founding fathers of america had all of the same corruptions as the leaders in europe and around the world. It seems totally ignorant to fall back on rules made in an era gone by, especially one that had more problems than this one. Its kinda like asking Napolian about world peace...
yes, this is exactly what i'm getting at. logic>>>mouldy old documents. now, this isn't to say that everything in those documents is worthless. for instance, i'm rather a big fan of the freedom of speech thing. but i do think that over a few hundred years, society changes and we need to update our political codes to reflect that.


Canada has suffered from SARS, mad cow, and West Nile. Economic experts said that it would have reduced the canadian dollar to half of the american... but than GW had his wars... and the canadian dollar raised significantly! Thanks George!

You guys spend billions on war, we pour our meager finances into meeting the Kyoto proticol (you know, the one that tells us to stop flooding the atmosphere with harmfull gasses, so our great grandkids dont have three heads, and live in a world where winter is boiling hot)
hehe, yea! good thing we didn't sign that nasty pollution control treaty. according to our goverment, spending a mabajillion dollars on an unneeded and totally crazy war is ok, but preventing the destruction of the bioshpere is just TOO SPENDY.


Money makes the world go 'round, and oil companies make it spin like a motherfucker.
i just wonder what the fuck they're gonna do when the world's oil reserves are depleted in a hundred years or so.


but the US made so many of the treaties, why cant it break a few? (sarcasm... duh!)
this nation is (sadly) built on broken treaties. gee, where did all those native americans go? ::looks around:: yea...



and not 'cause i hate this country, either, but because i rather like it. and i hate to see it being raped by that evil idiot and his cronies.


just thoght that i would point this out so you dont get flamed as badly.[/quote]
heh, thanks. and i do really like this country. loved despite great faults, i guess. GREAT faults... but greatly loved... with a LOT of guilt... i just think that we need to get our act together and start making rational world political and economic decsions. empires fall when they become too barberous and greedy...



On 2003-10-05 20:06, NKOTB wrote:
Bordering: thanks for stealing George Carlins material and posting it.
at first i was wondering what the hell you were talking about, since i've never been into carlin (before my time). then i went and searched google for "george carlin 10 commandments" and found this:

http://www.geocities.com/bobmelzer/gc10cx.html

i had never seen it before. go ahead, everyone, and read it. it's pretty funny. but it's not at all what i was doing which was comparing the 10 commandments to the american legal system. george was critiqueing the commandments themselves and what the motive behind formulating and enforcing them was. he also had the point that they could have been summed up in fewer commandments. i -guess- i can see how someone with sub par english comprehension skills could think that my essay was identical to that piece... especially since i used numbers and he used numers too (albeit in a totally different way)! but, erm, you'd have to be pretty damn subpar.

seeing as that's the case allow me to recap so that you don't get all confused and scared:

my point: the ten commandments have very little to do with the contemporary american legal system and therefore have no place in our courts of law.

carlin's point[s]: the commandments were made to make weak willed people more subserviant. they are also absurd because they repeat and contradict themselves.

the -only- thing that's similar is the form. and that's out of sheer coincidence. so, erm, ANYONE who does numericly ordered of commentary on the 10 commandments is imitating/ripping off carlin, eh? well, you'd better call the religious studies departments at all of the major universities and tell them to fire their profs for plagerism. it's really the most logical way to address the thing. what i'm saying with my analysis and what he's saying are two VERY different things, despite the somewhat similar form.

[Getintothegame]

*Starts clapping*

Nice post.

I'll start to get more involved in this tomorrow. Stuff my doctor gave me kinda messes with me.

[RuneLateralus]

Uhh...it is a statue...a stupid statue. Sure it is of a religous figure, but people are making WAY too big of a deal out of this situation. Amazing what people complain about...

[_Sinue_]

Ya know what the scary thing is Bordering? KNOTB is actually a teacher!

God help the youth of America.

[LollipopLolita]

On 2003-10-05 22:34, RuneLateralus wrote:
but people are making WAY too big of a deal out of this situation. Amazing what people complain about...



haven't modding for some time on this site taught you that people can complain about anything and everything? heh. but yeah i agree with rune.

[Inu_Ranma]

Wow, Bordering. Just wow. You said like everything I was trying to think, but failed to.

Buddhism is NEVER a $^&*ing religion. This is not opinion. This is fact. Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism are an exception to this. They are the two main sects of Pure Land Buddhism (which is the largest area of Buddhism, granted.) Every, and I mean EVERY other sect of Buddhism is companion to a religion. Zen is companion to Shinto. The original Buddhism was companion to Hinduism (though it was also an opponent to it), Pure Land Buddhism was even companion to Daoism once, but eventually enveloped it. Anybody who calls Buddhism a religion has not truly studied it. Enough said.

For more information check out the book Awakening: An Introduction to the History of Eastern Thought by Professor Patrick Bresnan. It's the most widely used textbook on Eastern religion and philosophy in American colleges and was written by the man who got me on my start to active studies of Eastern religions and philosophies other than Buddhism, which I've studied and partaken in (Zen) my whole life.

People shouldn't talk about things that they're ignorant of.

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-05 22:56, _Sinue_ wrote:
Ya know what the scary thing is Bordering? KNOTB is actually a teacher!

God help the youth of America.



LMFAO

I'm used to reading your personal attacks, but this particular example is totally baseless.
-------
FYI,
Last year was my first year teaching, and standardized test scores for the class were up 30% from the year before.
You can attribute it to one or two things. 1) Men almost always get better results in Elementary classrooms. And/or 2) I'm a good teacher.

And I don't teach the goddam test either!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NKOTB on 2003-10-06 00:34 ]</font>

[Bradicus]

On 2003-10-05 22:34, RuneLateralus wrote:
Uhh...it is a statue...a stupid statue. Sure it is of a religous figure, but people are making WAY too big of a deal out of this situation. Amazing what people complain about...



What are you talking about? complaining is teh funzorz!!!

better than spam isnt it?

[bordering]

On 2003-10-06 00:28, NKOTB wrote:


On 2003-10-05 22:56, _Sinue_ wrote:
Ya know what the scary thing is Bordering? KNOTB is actually a teacher!

God help the youth of America.

LMFAO

I'm used to reading your personal attacks, but this particular example is totally baseless.
-------
FYI,
Last year was my first year teaching, and standardized test scores for the class were up 30% from the year before.
You can attribute it to one or two things. 1) Men almost always get better results in Elementary classrooms. And/or 2) I'm a good teacher.

And I don't teach the goddam test either!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NKOTB on 2003-10-06 00:34 ]</font>


awww, cute. he slipped up on his reading comprehension again. sinue wasn't referring to whatever your actual track record as an instructor might be, he was referring to how DUMB you were to call me a plagerist because you simply couldn't comprehend the immense difference between my essay and carlin's bit.

he's probably also referring to your all around ignorance.

what REALLY gets me is how a LOT of lower income/middle income people are "conservatives" or republicans. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? i can understand wealthy people being "conservative" republicans... because that's who gets served by that idealogy. i really don't understand how any moderately informed and intelligent lower/middle income person could be so inclined.

eh...


Uhh...it is a statue...a stupid statue. Sure it is of a religous figure, but people are making WAY too big of a deal out of this situation. Amazing what people complain about...
and you don't think there would be an even BIGGER uproar if someone wanted to put a statue of vishnu or something in a public court of law? there's an uproar because having a religious icon in a court of law is highly illogical and inappropriate.

sure, it's not as pressing as other issues (::hem:: the economy and that horrid farce of a "war"), but it still has social impact. less so now that the alabama court that raised the whole issue has since taken the statue down. but eh...

[NKOTB]

On 2003-10-07 22:19, bordering wrote:

what REALLY gets me is how a LOT of lower income/middle income people are "conservatives" or republicans. HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN? i can understand wealthy people being "conservative" republicans... because that's who gets served by that idealogy. i really don't understand how any moderately informed and intelligent lower/middle income person could be so inclined.


Maybe they are self-respecting individuals who go out and work for a living, and believe other people should too, rather than live off government handouts.
Both parties serve everyone one way or another, it is just the complete shit-for-brains like yourself that run around crying that Republicans only care about the rich, and hurt the poor.

You know who hurts the poor? The poor for not doing anything about it. If they would spend half their time doing something about their situation, rather than making excuses and complaining about it, maybe they wouldn't be poor.

Obviously, that is not true in ALL cases. But more often than not, people get themselves into their own problems.

[_Sinue_]

I think it has more to do with a phenomenon (I believe) Lee Iacocca pointed out. He said "You can feed the public as much shit as you want, so long as you do it one bite at a time." And well.. guess who's controlling the air waves. Ever wonder why Rush Limbaugh got his own show while Jim Hightower (with a similarly large fanbase) got rejected? The media, as many American's sole outlet for information, has a great influence over people's perceptions. Not to say that is the sole cause, but it does have a definate impact.

What really gets me is why most FARMERS are Republicans, when the Republican party has done far more to screw them over than any other political party in history... and Farming is one industry where you can go from being a top producer to loosing your ass in the blink of an eye. Yet our government does very little to help them.

Once again, KNOTB, you show your ignorance by making the absurd claim that "Democrats" and "Liberals" are lazy and selfish. You probably buy into all that bullshit about Labor Unions being tied to the mafia too now don't you? (Despite the fact that both sides, Company and Union, at one time had ties to the mafia. Henry Ford had mobsters beat Walter Ruther nearly to death for trying to get into FORD so he could have a talk with Henry.) The fact is, that people are people - and will work however they see fit no matter their political affiliation. Some of the hardest working people I know are democratic Union members - while I also know quite a few sleezy Republican Union members who will do anything to get out of work and blame it on someone else. And vice versa.

The working man has very little assistance to seek. The AFL-CIO, largely, have had their hands tied since the mid 80's. Democrats, every bit as much as Republicans, love screwing over the middle/lower class. After all, it was Clinton who fast tracked NAFTA which ushered in the closing of hundreds of plants across America. The information society structure we were supposed to be moving to (and still are) has been stimed by the busting of the Tech bubble at the end of the 90's. Had those plants not been given the red carpet oppertunity to move to Mexico, Honduras, Indonesia, China, ect.. our unemployment rate today might look very different. Even if they are shitty jobs.. they are still jobs - which I'm sure those on the unemployment line would LOVE to have. Thank the Democrats for that. *Shrug*

[_Sinue_]

Speaking of the AFL-CIO, I found this artical over there which some will find interesting. This is an example of the way Republicans screw over the working class without barely a peep about it in the media. You don't see this stuff on the news, because they're keeping us focused on Iraq and other issues. However, if this were widely known - and people knew that it was a Bush/BushJr. backed bill.. people might have a very different perception of the Republican party.


http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/overtimepay/underattack.cfm

Actually.. I think I'm going to post this news in the Offtopic forum and see what people think about it.

[bordering]

On 2003-10-07 22:36, NKOTB wrote:

Maybe they are self-respecting individuals who go out and work for a living, and believe other people should too, rather than live off government handouts.
Both parties serve everyone one way or another, it is just the complete shit-for-brains like yourself that run around crying that Republicans only care about the rich, and hurt the poor.

You know who hurts the poor? The poor for not doing anything about it. If they would spend half their time doing something about their situation, rather than making excuses and complaining about it, maybe they wouldn't be poor.

Obviously, that is not true in ALL cases. But more often than not, people get themselves into their own problems.


dude, are you really that DENSE? i'm not even talking about the indigent, that's a whole other issue.

i'm referring specifically to people who WORK their asses off. people like teachers, police officers, nurses, etc. these people get really fucked over by republicans whose economic policies tend to protect only the top 10% of the wealthiest people in the country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A59577-2002Dec15¬Found=true

take a look at that. that wonderful new taxplan? it's gonna fuck over middle class workers. now, as someone who was born into a considerable bit of money and married into even more, i can fucking tell you that as a rich person, the only reason for why you would ever want to have a decrease in the current amount of taxes you pay is because you're a fucking greedy selfish bastard. paying a higher % of your income if your income is obscenely high only makes sense to me. but my views are the exception; there are a ton of fucking greedy selfish rich bastards around. and these are the people that fund/lobby -both- of the major politcal parties (but more so the republican party). THAT'S why we see these backwards regulations going into effect.

now, go and look at this:

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h06.html

do you know the difference between the mean and the median? do you, teacherman? i bet you don't, lemme walk you through it. the mean income of the us is the AVERAGE of all the various incomes added up and then divided. the income of the super wealthy skews this figure so that it's higher (by a large margin) than the MEDIAN income which is way more refective of what most people actually make in a year.

now notice how, when you adjust for inflation (what the study terms as "2001 dollars" (since the results were tallied in 2001)), the MEDIAN income decreases from a high of 43,355 in '99 lower and lower until it his 42,228 in '01. while the MEAN income (the one that's skewed higher due to the uber rich fukking up the average) goes up fairly steadily until it suffers a small decrease in 2001. you'll also note that the differecene between the median and mean grows steadily larger.

this means that the rich are getting richer and the MIDDLE CLASS are getting poorer.

now i don't think the democratic party is a godsend in terms of fixing this shit. it, is, though ever so -slightly- less corrupt since it gets more of its funding from working and middle class people. republican funding comes almost exclusively from large corporations and the people who run them.


I think it has more to do with a phenomenon (I believe) Lee Iacocca pointed out. He said "You can feed the public as much shit as you want, so long as you do it one bite at a time." And well.. guess who's controlling the air waves. Ever wonder why Rush Limbaugh got his own show while Jim Hightower (with a similarly large fanbase) got rejected? The media, as many American's sole outlet for information, has a great influence over people's perceptions. Not to say that is the sole cause, but it does have a definate impact.
yes, sinue, i agree totally. i just don't get why people are for really real that fucking stuid that they eat the tripe fed to them and ask for more. who controls the airwaves? the wealthy. there's no arguing that. most of what's shown at all and even more that's "popular" is heavily biased toward the agenda of protecting wealth for the few.

[quote]Speaking of the AFL-CIO, I found this artical over there which some will find interesting. This is an example of the way Republicans screw over the working class without barely a peep about it in the media. You don't see this stuff on the news, because they're keeping us focused on Iraq and other issues. However, if this were widely known - and people knew that it was a Bush/BushJr. backed bill.. people might have a very different perception of the Republican party.


http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/overtimepay/underattack.cfm</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
...

just another disturbing example of the regressive agenda of the bush administration.

anecdotally, i live in minneapolis proper, mn. the moronic dittoheads of this state just elected a republican governer, and two republican mayors of our largest cities. one of my freinds is a trained police officer who worked for the mpls pd for about a year. he got laid off from the police department along with about 10 other officers that lost their jobs. hours for cops are being cut, police programs and initiatives aren't being funded as well as they were before or are being totally eliminated. why? because the repubs made a promise to "cut taxes" (i.e. do what bush did/is planning to do and cut them RICH people, not the MIDDLE income or the LOWER income) and to fund their tax program, they had to cut public spending. do you really LIKE the thought of having less public money spent on police, fire, health, and education just so some rich bastard can have even MORE money? fuck, i'm a fairly rich bastard and -i- don't fucking like it. this society is gonna turn into post communist russia. yea, communist russia was bad too, but not like the "capitalist" "revolution" (where almost all of the country's wealth ended up in the hands of a few wealthy people) was pretty either. if we're not more fucking vigilant, it could go that way.

the thing is? most middle or working class people either:

1. don't know the first shit about economics or tax law. (this applies to dittoheads like NKOTB who just listen to rush and watch FOX news and form their opinions on the biased info that's fed to them instead of actually doing research and seeing what's actually going on). they don't have the capacity to understand complicated tax laws or even simple census data such as i presented above.

2. do know what's going on but don't/can't do anything about it because they have no real power (power in contemporary politics is concentrated money).

but, eh, this shit makes my head hurt. ima go level my FOmar.

[NKOTB]

Police officer avg salary: $39,790
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm
That job requires only a high school diploma, and retirement is available once you hit about 45 years old.

Teacher avg salary: $44,400
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/07/04/teacher.salaries.ap/
That is a job that only has about 9 months of work a year.

Avg Nurse salary: $39,000
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/nurse-salaries.htm


Bordering, 1. You are stupid and poor. 2. You have no idea what you are talking about when you call these people poor.
What I really like, is that it takes you and your ballholder Sinue 32 pages to respond to anything I say. That's probably because the truth hurts.

You = Poor

[ChokingVictim]

regarding the 10 commandments.


all of 2 commandments have to do with current US laws. so the '10 commandments as a base of American law' argument falls kinda flat.


regarding 'under God'.


the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a communist. Sen. McCarthy in one of his bat shit insane moments was able to add the phrase "under God" into said Pledge. to take out the 'under God' would actually return the Pledge to its original state. it would also cater to atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, and other various polytheistic religions. obviously atheists have no God, but Hindus have many, many, Gods... are they to be left by the wayside to accomodate just the Christians, Jews, and Muslims?
Notice i did put Mulsim in that group, because in case some of you don't realize God=Yahweh=Allah. What about the Native peoples who kinda lived here in the first place? I'm fairly certain most of them didn't have any monotheistic religion in line with the 3 Abrahamic faiths.

I'm white, straight, male, and a Muslim. I was born here and i consider myself a proud American. Not for excessive flag waving, but in more of a standing by the principles of our constitution. I also realize how imperfect this land is and the need to make things better. We Americans should be our own worst critics, striving to make things better for all Americans. Don't take things personally when the ACLU tries to pry a wedge between religion and state. "thou shalt have no other Gods than me" does rub a few people the wrong way, and that's their American right.

[bordering]

On 2003-10-08 11:20, bordering wrote:
[quote]
On 2003-10-08 08:26, NKOTB wrote:
Police officer avg salary: $39,790
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm
That job requires only a high school diploma, and retirement is available once you hit about 45 years old.

Teacher avg salary: $44,400
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/07/04/teacher.salaries.ap/
That is a job that only has about 9 months of work a year.

Avg Nurse salary: $39,000
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/nurse-salaries.htm


Bordering, 1. You are stupid and poor. 2. You have no idea what you are talking about when you call these people poor.
What I really like, is that it takes you and your ballholder Sinue 32 pages to respond to anything I say. That's probably because the truth hurts.

You = Poor




you = hopeless. there's no point in arguing with someone who obviously can't even comprehend the arugments and data being presented. did i ever SAY that police officers/teachers/etc were POOR? BUZZZZZZZZZ. moron, go back and actually try and fucking comprehend my post for once. i said over and over and over again the the MIDDLE CLASS, -along with- the working class and indigent are getting fucked over but these new republican formulated tax and economic initiatives. note how i'm not talking about welfare mamas or so on and so forth; they're already totally screwed in any case. i'm talking about the slow erosion of the middle class that will leave us eventually with 10% of the wealthiest people controlling 90% of the total wealth.

good god, you're just unutterably protoplasmic. i really hope that they someday get around to building an ultrasonic laser that can detect and sterilize the terminally stupid. people like you just... shouldn't... exist.


nationwide, middle-income families pay almost 10 percent of their earnings in state and local taxes and poor families pay more than 11 percent. But the richest people effectively pay only 5.2 percent of their income in state and local taxes.

does shit like this make you somehow feel good? how the fuck is that anything other than morally bankrupt and MORONIC?

i think it's cute how you resort to ad hominum attacks without presenting ANY evidenece to counter ANY of my points EVER. it's even more cute that you thought you were countering a point i made because, for the umpteenth time, you failed to comprehend what i was saying. i never said the MIDDLE CLASS were poor, i said that they are being taxed more heavily than the rich, that the income gap between the wealthy and the MIDDLE CLASS is widening, and that that should really not fit into anyone's notion of fairness.

i think you have some serious issues. you are middle class (as a teacher you likely make right around the median income), yet you support politions who want to increase your taxes and give tax cuts to the wealthiest 10%. there is no logical reason for why anyone would think that way. your dittohead, unthinking, uncritcal, uninformed support of bush, his policies, and his party is laughable. i betcha it's likely based out of an inferiorty you feel; you think that by aligning yourself with the powerful in terms of idealogy you too become powerful... while in actuality you are just helping to fuck yourself and people in your income bracket (and below) over. now THAT'S what i call stupid.

one thing that's been driven home to me but your rather amusing idiot flailing about is that i'm so SO super glad that if i ever have kids, they are NOT going to have to be subjected to the american public school system. because apparently they let any moron who flunked his SAT verbal section teach these days. scary times we live in. too bad there's not enough funding to fire rejects such as yourself and hire people of a decent calibur. eh, i guess that third car that we bought with our tax return last year is worth rasing a whole new generation of simpletons.


heh, i just noted the sweet sweet irony of your user info too:

From: USA

Mood: I need a vacation
if you were from a civilized contry (see: europe) where people actually get treated with a modicum of fairness, maybe you wouldn't be so hard up and you could afford a vaction. hell, waitresses in germany get (on the average) 6 weeks of paid vaction a year.

people like you make me sick, not only accepting a lower position in life, but arguing that everything is peachy keen. people like you make me wonder if the plebes really do deserve their lot and to hell with them all.

[ABDUR101]

Locked, and for the love of God, stop with the personal attacks. >=

If you can't keep it in an adult manner and civil, don't bother.