Abortion?

[undevil]

Alright I was recently in a forum where a few people thought that abortion was wrong in ALL circumstances.

I think it is totally justified in certain occasions. This is where I disagree with abortion.

The woman was slumming with some guys and she became pregnant.

Woman wants a baby but changes her mind at the last minute.

Girl wants a baby but parents force her to get an abortion.

But what pissed me off was that they said that a person should still have the baby even if the baby was a victim to rape. That is not right. If you were raped, and you got pregnant from it, why should you have that baby with the mans DNA in it?

Totally wrong in my opinion.

Back about a year ago, a 10 year old girl was raped by a guy in Romania. She got pregnant though. She and her parents wanted to get an abortion, but the church and the rest of the town didn't want her to get an abortion. They somehow forced the family to move out of the town.

That is just wrong.

[Armok]

A person is the sum of there memory and experinces if a person has no memory of life then they aint alive in my opinion.

My opinion makes abortions fine as your just killing off some cells.

[Blitzkommando]

According to that viewpoint I wasn't 'alive' until I turned 4...

[Hrith]

Women choose, period.

[Ness]

A woman has the right to choose what is done to her body.

[Uncle_bob]

On 2004-01-31 12:33, Ness wrote:
A woman has the right to choose what is done to her body.



Wrong. Suicide is illegal. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[drizzle]

On 2004-01-31 12:15, undevil wrote:
If you were raped, and you got pregnant from it, why should you have that baby with the mans DNA in it?

Because it's not you who decides who shall live and who shall die?

[undevil]

On 2004-01-31 13:17, drizzle wrote:


On 2004-01-31 12:15, undevil wrote:
If you were raped, and you got pregnant from it, why should you have that baby with the mans DNA in it?

Because it's not you who decides who shall live and who shall die?




Nor is it you. The baby isn't technically alive yet, so it isn't doing anything wrong.

[Hrith]

On 2004-01-31 13:17, drizzle wrote :
Because it's not you who decides who shall live and who shall die?
Nor is it the Church, nor the "others", so who ? ya the woman, back to my previous post.
If women have the right to give life, they have the right not to, otherwise it's not a right >_>

[Inu_Ranma]

I am pro-choice, under certain constraints which are, for the most part, what Kefka outlined. I don't believe that any blanket law about abortion, being allowance or denial, can solve the quandry.

On a side note: You begin to process memory the moment you're born. If you don't think you began to remember things until you're four you're wrong. Just because you can't remember it now doesn't mean that you didn't at one point.

[anwserman]

OK, let me put it this way...

Abortion should be done if:
At the time of conception, the woman had no choice in the matter. (Rape)
The mother's life was in danger.

[Kasumi19]

I fully believe in freedom of choice in this matter. I would never have the procedure done to myself unless there was some danger to my life though. I believe that people need to responsible for their actions and the consequences that result from them.

I have known a few people that have underwent this procedure and in their cases I agree with the choice they made. One friend was hit by a car and broke both of her legs (one in several places) and the car's hood ornament impaled her through the stomach. She barely survived it and I was very surprised to find out that the baby she was carrying survived it. She chose to terminate the pregnancy because with the extent of her injuries it would have made her own recovery very difficult. She could barely care for herself and there was no way she would have been able to care for a baby and the baby's father was a complete scumbag and did not even stick around while she went through months of physical therapy.

[Sord]

let them choose, however, if your in an overpopulated country, like China, i'm not sure. My opinion won't change that anyways.

[Eihwaz]

On 2004-01-31 14:34, anwserman wrote:
OK, let me put it this way...

Abortion should be done if:
At the time of conception, the woman had no choice in the matter. (Rape)
The mother's life was in danger.


I agree. That's about the only times when abortion should be a choice.

If the woman's fooling around, then it's her responsibility to have the baby and raise it. You know that sex could get you pregnant, so if you do it without thinking...

[Ness]

On 2004-01-31 12:35, Uncle_bob wrote:


On 2004-01-31 12:33, Ness wrote:
A woman has the right to choose what is done to her body.



Wrong. Suicide is illegal. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



You're right, but it shouldn't be.

[kingmurp]

It's okay, there is always a reason. No matter how stupid the reason, a child born into a familar hell that most of us have experienced should be given the sanctity of never living at all then going through the torment, sometimes most of wish we never existed at all. These people were granted the option. Besides if abortion was totally outlawed, people would leave the country or dumpster drop them. It's allowed in the States so deal with it.

[Deathscythealpha]

I feel its the womans own personal choice. If a woman feels she needs to have an abortion, whatever the reason, she should be allowed to do it. If she was to feel guilt its her own fault, if she doesnt feel guilty then does it matter to anyone else but her?

I seem to press this point alot, but Laissez Faire (still hope im spelling that right): people should be left to make their own choices and other people shouldnt really poke their noses in.

[Uncle_bob]

On 2004-01-31 19:50, Deathscythealpha wrote:
I feel its the womans own personal choice. If a woman feels she needs to have an abortion, whatever the reason, she should be allowed to do it. If she was to feel guilt its her own fault, if she doesnt feel guilty then does it matter to anyone else but her?

I seem to press this point alot, but Laissez Faire (still hope im spelling that right): people should be left to make their own choices and other people shouldnt really poke their noses in.



Ok. Uncle walks up to you some day and shoots you in the head point blank with a 12 guage shotgun, killing you obviously. You nor anyone else should care according to such logic, especially if Uncle didn't feel guilty about it, yes? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Besides, he'd be taking you out of the "hell" known as "life", right?

[KodiaX987]

But if you're shooting him, you are not abiding to the Laissez Faire law. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

The deal with Laissez Faire is this: "Mind your own business."

[Hrith]

OK, let me put it this way.
Abortion is possible when :
Women want ! she is the one with baby, she chooses. Not you, nor you, even if you're the father, middle ages are over, SHE does, SHE
There is no such thing as "cases where abortion is possible", it's their choice.
Would you rather see a unloved child grow to be a serial killer (need names ?) or whatever perv, pedophile, etc.
People who dare say they are murderers for aborting have no idea what it is to abort -- it's not like they enjoy it. Those people are just 'philosophically debating' about this and that, destroying thousands of women's lives that way. Just to suit their 200 year-old ideals.
Those people, in the women's shoes would most likely change their mind.

[Crystal_Shard]

Abortion is wrong, whichever way you cut it.
It's not because of philosophy, or whatnot and it's not just because "my religion states this" -
however you rationalize it it boils down to this: "This life is inconvenient to me so I'll end it to solve my problems."

A woman can do whatever she wants with her body - this is true. But since when was a foetus
part of her body? At the time of conception, a foetus is still a human being, incomplete it may be.
A seperate human being.

I would like anyone who is pro-abortion here to have a look at what they do to aborted foetuses.

And as to the argument that a child should not be born because he/she will be disadvantaged?
Please, spare us. That's another way of saying "I can't handle this kid, let's whack it on the
head till it stops crying." There are such things as adoption agencies. Many people in the
world would die to have a child and you want to kill yours off? If you can't provide for him/her,
let someone else who can do it. You'll save a unique life, one that'll never appear again.

If a woman who aborted a baby was remorseful, good for her. She should be. I'd only have have
compassion for such people if they had wanted to keep the child and were forced (by parents,
boyfriend, husband) to do so.

The worse part is this. Who even asked the unborn child, "Do you want to die?" He/she can't answer
back and say, "No I want to live" or "Yes, I want to end it all". A foetus that's about to be aborted
holds on to its life with a desperation nobody could comprehend. I don't think I can imagine what
would go through the mind of an unborn child. I don't think I want to imagine it. The womb is
supposed to be a haven for a child, not the coffin of a victim who cannot defend itself, nor
scream out in agony.

The only time that should be ok for a child to be aborted is when the mother's life is in danger.
Because that is the time when you have to choose between two lives, the mother or the child.
Either way you lose a life.

I can probably sum up the rationalizations of pro-choice arguments. You just don't want the
inconvenience of this small human to bother you, so you kill it. But I ask you - who has the right
to kill a life because it was in the way?

[Shimarisu]

I pretty much agree, but only to a certain point. I'm not sure what morals are anymore. We were born barbaric and unable to control our urges. Just because we live in modern society, we have not grown out of the base instinct to lash out at people we don't like, or to fuck anything that moves. We are no better than beasts, actually we are worse because we have the intelligence to choose. So if you kill a human being who is not yet aware, people may say it's wrong, but look. You eat meat every day. You perpetuate the killing of innocent beasts who were barely aware of their mortality. Even if you choose not to do it, it's better for you that you did. We were programmed to be murderous from day one, to kill or be killed (or at the very least, to die of malnutrition, which you WOULD do without quaffing chemicals, an invention of modern times to keep vegetarians alive). People can't fight those instincts anyway. Why is killing an unborn child any worse than eating a hamburger? I'm very confused by morality, it seems to be an invention of modern times. People preach that you must adhere to it, but does anybody, seriously, 100% of the time? We are, at base, immoral animals. Our genetic makeup which provokes us to anger, provokes us to kill to survive, provokes us to sleep around then discard the person we slept with or discard the child, is proof there is no god, and that there is no point that ANY of us were ever born in the first place.

[_Sinue_]

My belief is...

A: Being a man, it's none of my buisness.

B: The child isn't alive until the brain forms to the point where the neurons start firing. After that, the baby begins learning and developing a personality. Before that, it's just a mass of collected cells.

[Deathscythealpha]

On 2004-01-31 20:54, Uncle_bob wrote:


On 2004-01-31 19:50, Deathscythealpha wrote:
I feel its the womans own personal choice. If a woman feels she needs to have an abortion, whatever the reason, she should be allowed to do it. If she was to feel guilt its her own fault, if she doesnt feel guilty then does it matter to anyone else but her?

I seem to press this point alot, but Laissez Faire (still hope im spelling that right): people should be left to make their own choices and other people shouldnt really poke their noses in.



Ok. Uncle walks up to you some day and shoots you in the head point blank with a 12 guage shotgun, killing you obviously.

You nor anyone else should care according to such logic, especially if Uncle didn't feel guilty about it, yes? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif




Laissez Faire isnt that you dont care whats happened, it is if you have the right to tell someone what they can and cant do and effect their lives. Take, for example, Gun control in america. Do i, as someone who lives in the British isle's, have the right to come over there and tell you that you shouldnt have guns in your home, they must be banned and what not? I dont think so. I may not like guns, but Laissez Faire, you lot can do whatever you like.



Besides, he'd be taking you out of the "hell" known as "life", right?



Nah, i dont see life as being hell. It may be shitty in places for me, but whos life isnt? I can get by and enjoy myself.


I know how sensitive the abortion issue is, ive seen countless threads turn up in this forum about it over the past 3 years. You will alwyas get one lot of people for, one lot against, and one lot in the middle who wthink its the woans choice and that they dont have any right to effect it. The arguement will never be solved, no one is really ever right and once this thread dies down another will probably turn up in a couple of months. Its weird, but it will continue to happen.

[undevil]

On 2004-01-31 23:22, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Abortion is wrong, whichever way you cut it.
It's not because of philosophy, or whatnot and it's not just because "my religion states this" -
however you rationalize it it boils down to this: "This life is inconvenient to me so I'll end it to solve my problems."

A woman can do whatever she wants with her body - this is true. But since when was a foetus
part of her body? At the time of conception, a foetus is still a human being, incomplete it may be.
A seperate human being.

I would like anyone who is pro-abortion here to have a look at what they do to aborted foetuses.

And as to the argument that a child should not be born because he/she will be disadvantaged?
Please, spare us. That's another way of saying "I can't handle this kid, let's whack it on the
head till it stops crying." There are such things as adoption agencies. Many people in the
world would die to have a child and you want to kill yours off? If you can't provide for him/her,
let someone else who can do it. You'll save a unique life, one that'll never appear again.

If a woman who aborted a baby was remorseful, good for her. She should be. I'd only have have
compassion for such people if they had wanted to keep the child and were forced (by parents,
boyfriend, husband) to do so.

The worse part is this. Who even asked the unborn child, "Do you want to die?" He/she can't answer
back and say, "No I want to live" or "Yes, I want to end it all". A foetus that's about to be aborted
holds on to its life with a desperation nobody could comprehend. I don't think I can imagine what
would go through the mind of an unborn child. I don't think I want to imagine it. The womb is
supposed to be a haven for a child, not the coffin of a victim who cannot defend itself, nor
scream out in agony.

The only time that should be ok for a child to be aborted is when the mother's life is in danger.
Because that is the time when you have to choose between two lives, the mother or the child.
Either way you lose a life.

I can probably sum up the rationalizations of pro-choice arguments. You just don't want the
inconvenience of this small human to bother you, so you kill it. But I ask you - who has the right
to kill a life because it was in the way?






I agree with most of what you said. But I still disagree that a baby born out of a rape should be an immoral reason to get an abortion.

None of us can comprehend what that must feel like, to have been raped, only to find out the man who raped you got you pregnant. You must feel disgusted, and dirty. It isn't right. I can see why you would want an abortion in this case.

Also, if the baby is the reason why you might die, I would rather take the babies life who hasn't even lived a life yet than take mine, when I still have much more things to do in life.

If an axe murderer was in my house and gave me the choice to save my life over my childrens who was already born and living his life, I would take my life because I wouldn't be able to live with the feeling that I sentenced my own son/daughter to death. But a baby that hasn't been born yet is differant.

[Ness]

On 2004-01-31 23:22, Crystal_Shard wrote:

A woman can do whatever she wants with her body - this is true. But since when was a foetus
part of her body? At the time of conception, a foetus is still a human being, incomplete it may be.
A seperate human being.

I would like anyone who is pro-abortion here to have a look at what they do to aborted foetuses.



What do you mean "since when is a fetus part of her body?" When it's inside the mother, it is just another organ it lives off the mother and depends on her for blood, and nourishment. Until that baby leaves the mother and become its own individual unit, it is still just another organ and like another organ, it can be removed.


And as to the argument that a child should not be born because he/she will be disadvantaged?
Please, spare us. That's another way of saying "I can't handle this kid, let's whack it on the
head till it stops crying." There are such things as adoption agencies. Many people in the
world would die to have a child and you want to kill yours off? If you can't provide for him/her,
let someone else who can do it. You'll save a unique life, one that'll never appear again.

It's sad how many people think adoption is always an alternative. First of all, they don't always except the child; that's why there are so many on the streets now. Second, do you know what happened to kids that go through the whole adoption thing? They get all messed up and the keep getting transferred from place to place and never find a stable home. They know very little of love and attachment because they are rarely able to stay with one family for very long. Not only that but because of all this moving around, they rarely do good in school and many end up becoming crooks. And that's just kids get put in foster homes, I'm not even going to talk about the kids that get put in orphanages.

[undevil]

You know that in China, they have so many kids in their adoption things that they put there info up on the net and anyone who wants to buy them can?

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-01 06:35, undevil wrote:
You know that in China, they have so many kids in their adoption things that they put there info up on the net and anyone who wants to buy them can?
Yes, mainly girls, the reason of this is not that Chinese people make too many children, it's that they want boys for descendance, so girls go to adoption offices, sad http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


And I'm not going to quote Crystal_Shard's long post, but I had a good time reading it http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
here's my reply :

On 2004-02-01 05:27, _Sinue_ wrote :
The child isn't alive until the brain forms to the point where the neurons start firing. After that, the baby begins learning and developing a personality. Before that, it's just a mass of collected cells.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kefka on 2004-02-01 10:07 ]</font>

[Inu_Ranma]

On 2004-01-31 23:22, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Abortion is wrong, whichever way you cut it.
It's not because of philosophy, or whatnot and it's not just because "my religion states this" -
however you rationalize it it boils down to this: "This life is inconvenient to me so I'll end it to solve my problems."




The problem with your logic for the first part of your post is that there is not a 'fetus,' by definition of the word, until the eighth weeek. That's why third trimester abortions are illegal (a VERY well formed fetus by then...), after all. During the first trimester all that there is of what could theoretically eventually be a baby is a scraping of cells. If you think that things such as that are wrong, then should not also things like the 'morning after' pill, which gets rid of two or three cells, the RU486 Pill, which also does, birth control, which destroys the all-important egg, which is technically the beginnings of a human being, and spermicide, which destroys millions of chances for humanity, all also be illegal?

I will agree with your argument about 'I don't want this child...' The only problem there is that in the United States, adoption agencies are a dangerous thing. There is very little screening process for the prospective parents, which ends up giving an astounding number of children to very bad parents. Furthermore, for adoption agencies to work, people must be educated about them (as must the children who are in thim, or else they're little more than pounds for kids), and said education is something at which America is very poor.

As for the pro-choice side. I personally abhor the argument 'if we make it illegal people will do it anyway.' It's so blah. You can stick it to practically anything.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Inu_Ranma on 2004-02-01 10:48 ]</font>

[anwserman]

Look, your average 6 year old doesn't have the concept of death ingrained in his head unless something related to death happens to a family member or whatnot... and you expect a fetus to answer whether or not "he wants to die?"

Maybe, if maybe, the fetus is self-aware of himself, when he starts sucking on his thumbs, should abortion be illegal. But, when that sucker is 5 cells big, and the child wasn't meant to be conceived and not due to carelessness, then maybe abortion should be considered. Maybe.

Let me put it this way: In my post above, there are two instances I feel abortion should be done. I won't relist them. However, abortion should always be a last resort and shouldn't be done on a 'whim'.

My biggest beef. Anti-abortion activists trying to get abortion to be outlawed. YOU AREN'T THE ONES HAVING THE ABORTION, ARE YOU? THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS AND PAY MORE ATTENTION TO YOUR OWN CHILDREN THEN TO SOMEBODY ELSES!

[Solstis]

Then again, you have the "what-if" factor.
Even if the child was *created* by rape, aliens, etc.,
"What if" the child was going to have a happy life?
"What if" the child could get adopted?
"What if" the child was going to grow up to be a researcher who devised a way to cure AIDS/CANCER/Ebola, or something.

I'm not going to point fingers/take sides/blow up something, but ya have to think about it.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-01 10:51, anwserman wrote:
However, abortion should always be a last resort and shouldn't be done on a 'whim'.
I'd rather there was no child than take the risk to see an unloved one. If the other has the slightest doubt about her child and decides to abort, then she must. Children is not something you must have doubts about.


On 2004-02-01 11:00, Solstis wrote:
Then again, you have the "what-if" factor.
Even if the child was *created* by rape, aliens, etc.,
"What if" the child was going to have a happy life?
"What if" the child could get adopted?
"What if" the child was going to grow up to be a researcher who devised a way to cure AIDS/CANCER/Ebola, or something.
That is no good enough reason to ruin a woman's life.

[anwserman]

On 2004-02-01 11:00, Solstis wrote:
Then again, you have the "what-if" factor.
Even if the child was *created* by rape, aliens, etc.,
"What if" the child was going to have a happy life?
"What if" the child could get adopted?
"What if" the child was going to grow up to be a researcher who devised a way to cure AIDS/CANCER/Ebola, or something.

I'm not going to point fingers/take sides/blow up something, but ya have to think about it.



Hate to burst your bubble, but there is always these "What if"s.

"What if" the child was going to have a decripit life?
"What if" the child would live on the streets killing people?
"What if" the child would spread AIDs and other diseases to other, unaware people?

The thing with the "What if" phrase is that, its uncertain. Yes, we would like to think that the child would live a happy life, but on the other side... the child may not. We live in a stupid, stupid world.

[_Sinue_]

The "What if" factor is BS. By that logic, any guy that has a wet dream is guilty of involutary manslaughter.. or worse.. mass murder. After all, each sperm is a potential human.. and "What if" that person were to become the next Albert Einstein or Martin Luther King? The potential future of hundreds upon hundreds of people is wasted by drying up into a flaky crust on the inside of your drawers.

[Crystal_Shard]

Until that baby leaves the mother and become its own individual unit, it is still just another organ and like another organ, it can be removed.


Even when it is inside the mother, it has its own nervous system and the brain and other
sections are in the first stages of development. It can feel pain quite early on (can't
remember how soon though) It's been recorded that a child before abortion shies away
from the instruments that are about to take it out of the womb. Would an "organ" do
such a thing?



First of all, they don't always except the child; that's why there are so many on the streets now. Second, do you know what happened to kids that go through the whole adoption thing? They get all messed up and the keep getting transferred from place to place and never find a stable home. They know very little of love and attachment because they are rarely able to stay with one family for very long. Not only that but because of all this moving around, they rarely do good in school and many end up becoming crooks.


So we should still kill the kid because the adoption agencies and the
foster parents can't do anything?

Doesn't it sound weird when you put it like that? Yes, I do agree that kids who go through
traumas like that end up in the gutter, but killing them before they are born reeks of being
a convenient method because the people can't be bothered.

To deny a child the right to live... at a time when he/she cannot even speak up... that's just wrong.



You know that in China, they have so many kids in their adoption things that they put there info up on the net and anyone who wants to buy them can?


You're right that China has a lot of unwanted kids. China has a strange situation. The Chinese
Government disallows more than one child to control the population's growth. But if you're
a farmer and you need a boy to help you in the fields, and you keep getting girls,
you either have the choice to kill the girl and try again, keep the girl and raise her up,
or put her up for adoption.

I have a friend who adopted one such female child. She's grown up quite nicely. I think she's about
7 -10 years old now.

The chance that the kid will get bad parents is always there, but the chance that the child
will get good parents is equally as strong



The problem with your logic for the first part of your post is that there is not a 'fetus,' by definition of the word, until the eighth weeek. That's why third trimester abortions are illegal (a VERY well formed fetus by then...)


By definition of the word "Foetus", true it may not be such in the early stages, but it
is still a living person, seperate from the mother.

Consider this.

- It has a seperate nervous system which develops before you can detect the pregnancy.
- It divides its cells independant of the mother
- It does not follow the mother's will and moves independantly.
- It reacts to outside influence

A collection of cells it may be. Part of the mother's body it is not. And most definitely
a human life it is.



If you think that things such as that are wrong, then should not also things like the 'morning after' pill, which gets rid of two or three cells, the RU486 Pill, which also does, birth control, which destroys the all-important egg


Not everyone's gonna agree with me on this but... birth control is merely a method for people
to excuse themselves from the responsibilities of sex. Without the chance that a kid will result
from the union, anyone can have sex without really thinking about it.

I don't agree with birth control by artificial means.



Furthermore, for adoption agencies to work, people must be educated about them (as must the children who are in thim, or else they're little more than pounds for kids), and said education is something at which America is very poor.


Education is lacking in many places, not just America. That's the reason why terrorists still
exist. :P

Adoption agencies are not the be-all and end-all, but a start in the right direction.
And there could be other countries willing to adopt from overseas.

The 'legal' adoption agencies are normally slow to react and generally tardy. That's
bureaucracy at work there. All the paper work needed for a child to be transferred
is rather large.

Can't say China has a good system either.



As for the pro-choice side. I personally abhor the argument 'if we make it illegal people will do it anyway.' It's so blah. You can stick it to practically anything.


It's just a convenient excuse for people to do what they want.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Crystal_Shard on 2004-02-01 19:52 ]</font>

[Crystal_Shard]

On 2004-02-01 04:54, Shimarisu wrote:
I pretty much agree, but only to a certain point. I'm not sure what morals are anymore. We were born barbaric and unable to control our urges. Just because we live in modern society, we have not grown out of the base instinct to lash out at people we don't like, or to fuck anything that moves. We are no better than beasts, actually we are worse because we have the intelligence to choose. So if you kill a human being who is not yet aware, people may say it's wrong, but look. You eat meat every day. You perpetuate the killing of innocent beasts who were barely aware of their mortality. Even if you choose not to do it, it's better for you that you did. We were programmed to be murderous from day one, to kill or be killed (or at the very least, to die of malnutrition, which you WOULD do without quaffing chemicals, an invention of modern times to keep vegetarians alive). People can't fight those instincts anyway. Why is killing an unborn child any worse than eating a hamburger? I'm very confused by morality, it seems to be an invention of modern times. People preach that you must adhere to it, but does anybody, seriously, 100% of the time? We are, at base, immoral animals. Our genetic makeup which provokes us to anger, provokes us to kill to survive, provokes us to sleep around then discard the person we slept with or discard the child, is proof there is no god, and that there is no point that ANY of us were ever born in the first place.



Well, as to how killing a cow and killing an unborn child is any different... it's hard to explain.

The argument can be made that a cow is needed for survival, the meat needed to survive.
Killing a child is indirectly prolonging survival by destroying a rival who could challenge
you in the future for survival. However, the reasons for killing the child are a lot harder
to agree with. After all, a child also prolongs your survival, providing for you when you
cannot do so any longer. A child is also an indirect extension of you, a method of duplicating
genes.

I guess the main difference in killing a cow and and an unborn child is that on one hand
you are prolonging your own life by eating the cow. On the other, by killing a child,
you destroy a part of yourself, reduce your chances of survival in old age, destroying
another life by virtue of whether the life obstructs your own carefully planned dream
of a perfect life.

Bear in mind that I realise rape victims carry enormous guilt with them... it's just that
there are always alternatives to simply killing the child. It's just not always clear as to what
can be done at that point in time.

While I'd ask if anyone can live with the stigma of killing their own child, considering
the number of abortions that still go on, apparently many say yes to that question.
Not a very good state of affairs.

I'm not going to argue with you on whether God exists or not. ^_^ I'm not the best
person for that kind of thing.

[Crystal_Shard]

None of us can comprehend what that must feel like, to have been raped, only to find out the man who raped you got you pregnant. You must feel disgusted, and dirty. It isn't right. I can see why you would want an abortion in this case.


I agree but, there are always alternatives. Killing should never be one of them.



Also, if the baby is the reason why you might die, I would rather take the babies life who hasn't even lived a life yet than take mine, when I still have much more things to do in life.


^_^ If you didn't notice, I said that if the mother's life is in danger, that's the only time
abortion can be even considered. It's a choice between two lives at that point so
saving lives is moot at that time - just a question of whose life to save.

[undevil]

I would agree with abortion for the fact that the planet is overcrowding fast. We are digging a deep hole with the population that will be very difficult to get out of.

[ZAVM]

Considering most of the people here spent the first nine months dodging rusty coat hangers, I don't think any of you (or myself) are qualified for anti-abortion standpoints.

[InCognito]

What do you mean "since when is a fetus part of her body?" When it's inside the mother, it is just another organ it lives off the mother and depends on her for blood, and nourishment. Until that baby leaves the mother and become its own individual unit, it is still just another organ and like another organ, it can be removed."


Wrong. Have you ever heard of the placental wall? That is the wall between the mother's and baby's systems. Do you know why it's there? So that the mother's immunity cells do not attack the unborn child, as they may recognize it as a foreign substance. Do you know what that means in layman's terms? That the baby is NOT part of the mother. I cannot believe that nobody has pointed this out.

You are an uninformed person and you do not deserve to speak.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: InCognito on 2004-02-01 21:44 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: InCognito on 2004-02-01 21:45 ]</font>

[Armok]

First of all the planet is overpopulated anyway so getting rid of some unwanted ebrios (sp?) is attually a good thing.

Its so stupid and illogical this whole view on u don't have the right to take a life. Its not aware yet, it won't notice if it dies its brain isnt devolped enough yet.

Pro life groups are just a bunch of sad christian losers. Your views are out of date go home to your mud huts.

[InCognito]

Armok you should be thankful your mother didn't think the way you do.

And the planet is not overpopulated. Certain areas are, but the entire planet itself is not.

[Shimarisu]

On 2004-02-01 19:34, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Well, as to how killing a cow and killing an unborn child is any different... it's hard to explain.

The argument can be made that a cow is needed for survival, the meat needed to survive.
Killing a child is indirectly prolonging survival by destroying a rival who could challenge
you in the future for survival. However, the reasons for killing the child are a lot harder
to agree with. After all, a child also prolongs your survival, providing for you when you
cannot do so any longer. A child is also an indirect extension of you, a method of duplicating
genes.

I guess the main difference in killing a cow and and an unborn child is that on one hand
you are prolonging your own life by eating the cow. On the other, by killing a child,
you destroy a part of yourself, reduce your chances of survival in old age, destroying
another life by virtue of whether the life obstructs your own carefully planned dream
of a perfect life.

Bear in mind that I realise rape victims carry enormous guilt with them... it's just that
there are always alternatives to simply killing the child. It's just not always clear as to what
can be done at that point in time.

While I'd ask if anyone can live with the stigma of killing their own child, considering
the number of abortions that still go on, apparently many say yes to that question.
Not a very good state of affairs.

I'm not going to argue with you on whether God exists or not. ^_^ I'm not the best
person for that kind of thing.


Personally I think I've got you there. YOu ran out of arguments. How is it OK to kill an aware being (a cow) and not OK to kill a collection of cells that hasn't developed a brain yet?

If you really have all the answers, then there is a god. That god would be you. Until you can claim such, there is no point preaching to anyone.

- Shimarisu

[Ness]

On 2004-02-01 18:57, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Even when it is inside the mother, it has its own nervous system and the brain and other
sections are in the first stages of development. It can feel pain quite early on (can't
remember how soon though) It's been recorded that a child before abortion shies away
from the instruments that are about to take it out of the womb. Would an "organ" do
such a thing?


Organs are connected to the nervous system and are also capable of feeling pain. I say it's an organ because until that baby leaves the mother, it's dependent of the mother for life just like any other organ.


So we should still kill the kid because the adoption agencies and the
foster parents can't do anything?

Doesn't it sound weird when you put it like that? Yes, I do agree that kids who go through
traumas like that end up in the gutter, but killing them before they are born reeks of being
a convenient method because the people can't be bothered.


It does sound wierd when you put it that way mainly because that's nowhere near what I said. Let me ask you this, if adoption agencies won't except the child then what should the parents do with it? Well they either abort it or they put the baby in a dumpster. Sure some parents may choose to keep the baby, but most are nowhere ready to have a child and that's why they try to get rid of it.




To deny a child the right to live... at a time when he/she cannot even speak up... that's just wrong.


What's the point of living if you are just going to be a miserable crook?

[InCognito]

What's the point of living if you classify individuals before they even have a chance to live?

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-02 05:37, InCognito wrote:
What's the point of living if you classify individuals before they even have a chance to live?
Everyone does that, nothing new >_>

And yes, the planet is overpopulated, this planet was made for 2 billions human inhabitants, not 8.
Remember what Smith said "we are parasites".

[KodiaX987]

A woman has the right to abortion providing she is in a position to make a clear and enlightened decision, after due consideration of the situation at hand, and if she feels giving birth will hinder her physical or mental state, may pose a danger to herself, or other circumstances in which she judges it wise to stop the pregnancy process.

At all times, the woman has the final word on whether she decides to use the aborting procedure or not, but this decision may be overruled in exceptional cases.

[Hrith]

On 2004-02-02 08:48, KodiaX987 wrote:
A woman has the right to abortion providing she is in a position to make a clear and enlightened decision
Are you suggesting that if a woman is not in such a position she should not abort ?
I'd rather not have a child raised by a madwoman http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[drizzle]

Personally I think I've got you there. YOu ran out of arguments. How is it OK to kill an aware being (a cow) and not OK to kill a collection of cells that hasn't developed a brain yet?

If you really have all the answers, then there is a god. That god would be you. Until you can claim such, there is no point preaching to anyone.

- Shimarisu



Cows are food, babies are not!

[Scejntjynahl]

On 2004-02-02 04:27, Shimarisu wrote:


On 2004-02-01 19:34, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Well, as to how killing a cow and killing an unborn child is any different... it's hard to explain.

The argument can be made that a cow is needed for survival, the meat needed to survive.
Killing a child is indirectly prolonging survival by destroying a rival who could challenge
you in the future for survival. However, the reasons for killing the child are a lot harder
to agree with. After all, a child also prolongs your survival, providing for you when you
cannot do so any longer. A child is also an indirect extension of you, a method of duplicating
genes.

I guess the main difference in killing a cow and and an unborn child is that on one hand
you are prolonging your own life by eating the cow. On the other, by killing a child,
you destroy a part of yourself, reduce your chances of survival in old age, destroying
another life by virtue of whether the life obstructs your own carefully planned dream
of a perfect life.

Bear in mind that I realise rape victims carry enormous guilt with them... it's just that
there are always alternatives to simply killing the child. It's just not always clear as to what
can be done at that point in time.

While I'd ask if anyone can live with the stigma of killing their own child, considering
the number of abortions that still go on, apparently many say yes to that question.
Not a very good state of affairs.

I'm not going to argue with you on whether God exists or not. ^_^ I'm not the best
person for that kind of thing.


Personally I think I've got you there. YOu ran out of arguments. How is it OK to kill an aware being (a cow) and not OK to kill a collection of cells that hasn't developed a brain yet?

If you really have all the answers, then there is a god. That god would be you. Until you can claim such, there is no point preaching to anyone.

- Shimarisu



Once again, then you can preach to us?

All I know is what has happened to me, I can not speak for everyone or do I try to.

I was a mistake, I was unplanned. My mother had the choice to abort me. She didnt do so. And here I am, for better or for worse, I live. I dont have any answers for this thread, all I have is that my mother gave me the opportunity, even when life is hard, I am glad I was given the chance to find out about life.

[Ness]

On 2004-02-02 05:37, InCognito wrote:
What's the point of living if you classify individuals before they even have a chance to live?



I wasn't saying that all of them tunr out to be miserable crooks.

[KodiaX987]

On 2004-02-02 09:07, Kefka wrote:
Are you suggesting that if a woman is not in such a position she should not abort ?
I'd rather not have a child raised by a madwoman http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif


Sorry, my sentence was misleading. I meant a woman has the right to make her own decision about aborting or not providing she etc. etc.

[Anubis_]

I think abortion should only be alowed when the actual birth may cause the mother to die..

I hate this technicality bullshit..

Their are tons of bastards in the world (literaly)..

Their are thousands people in the world who want nothing in the world to do with their mother or father... But just cause they hate them doesnt mean they give up on their own lives..

Im not a woman.. But if I were, i dont think i would have an abortion, even if the child is a result of a rape.. Its still half mine.. True id want his father to burn in hell for all eternity.. But it would still be half mine.. And id want that half to live..

Same would go for if my gf, or feonce(spl) had gotten pregnant bye rape.. I would still want her to have the baby.. After birth she could give it up for adoption,, i wouldnt care then..


This technicality shit really pisses me off.. My mother doesnt decide my fate.. I do.. True she had major influence on me in the past.. But she could never within the paramaters of the law.. kill me.. My deepest sympathy goes out to rape victims. male and female..
But A LIFE IS A LIFE.. Just the same.. Your still taking the life of an innocent..

Some of you may say.. Thats not fair.. and that the mother has the right because she never had a choice.. Well what about the babys choice??

The end never justifys the means..,, thats all to true.. But just cause your scared of what the future brings,, doesnt mean you should run away from it..

[Solstis]

On 2004-02-01 11:15, anwserman wrote:


On 2004-02-01 11:00, Solstis wrote:
Then again, you have the "what-if" factor.
Even if the child was *created* by rape, aliens, etc.,
"What if" the child was going to have a happy life?
"What if" the child could get adopted?
"What if" the child was going to grow up to be a researcher who devised a way to cure AIDS/CANCER/Ebola, or something.

I'm not going to point fingers/take sides/blow up something, but ya have to think about it.



Hate to burst your bubble, but there is always these "What if"s.

"What if" the child was going to have a decripit life?
"What if" the child would live on the streets killing people?
"What if" the child would spread AIDs and other diseases to other, unaware people?

The thing with the "What if" phrase is that, its uncertain. Yes, we would like to think that the child would live a happy life, but on the other side... the child may not. We live in a stupid, stupid world.



*Bubble is burst*
I'd call that poetic justice (even if it isn't).

Well, I guess it depends on what side of the "what-if" you believe in most.

[_Sinue_]

Ok.. lets play a bit. Three of these fetus's will die. One will live. You're job, is to pick out the human embryo. Don't cheat and look at the URL on the image.. answer honestly. Bonus points to whoever can correctly identify the speices of each embryo.

http://www.scalarscopes.com/images/msgarrison/COW%20EMBRYO%20WITH%20A%2010X%20LENS.JPG

http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/images/tailbud.gif

http://www.cbu.edu/~aross/embryo/10mmPig.jpg

http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~rdmp1c/teaching/L1/Evolution/l1/whale_embryo_small.gif

Tough choices huh? Everything looks pretty much the same at this point. Even species which are totally different. Sea Bass, Tigers, Elephants, and Ostriches.. and really every vertebre animal.. there really is no difference at this point, except for a DNA blueprint which will eventually form those lumps of clay into their respective species.

This is why I believe that, until the brain starts firing it's synaps and starts learning, forming a personality, and feeling emotions (which children in the womb have been proven able to do).. then I don't think it's human. It only has the potential.. and like so many have said before, the argument of "potential" is by and large, pretty pointless.

After that point of consistant and sustained brain activity.. I don't believe abortion is an option I would consider at all, were I to have a say in the matter, because that's the only time I can see that mass of cells as anything more that just that. The only time I can see it being called a human.

[JedahNSonans]

Whiehever one has the lowest Deter Values should die, because at level 100 with proper training it'd have the worst stats, unless you gamesharked it. then you're just a cheater and some people think that's worse than a pro-abortionist.

[Solstis]

And finally, the topic is dead. Let it die... please.

[Shimarisu]

On 2004-02-02 10:31, Furankunichan wrote:


On 2004-02-02 04:27, Shimarisu wrote:


On 2004-02-01 19:34, Crystal_Shard wrote:
Well, as to how killing a cow and killing an unborn child is any different... it's hard to explain.

The argument can be made that a cow is needed for survival, the meat needed to survive.
Killing a child is indirectly prolonging survival by destroying a rival who could challenge
you in the future for survival. However, the reasons for killing the child are a lot harder
to agree with. After all, a child also prolongs your survival, providing for you when you
cannot do so any longer. A child is also an indirect extension of you, a method of duplicating
genes.

I guess the main difference in killing a cow and and an unborn child is that on one hand
you are prolonging your own life by eating the cow. On the other, by killing a child,
you destroy a part of yourself, reduce your chances of survival in old age, destroying
another life by virtue of whether the life obstructs your own carefully planned dream
of a perfect life.

Bear in mind that I realise rape victims carry enormous guilt with them... it's just that
there are always alternatives to simply killing the child. It's just not always clear as to what
can be done at that point in time.

While I'd ask if anyone can live with the stigma of killing their own child, considering
the number of abortions that still go on, apparently many say yes to that question.
Not a very good state of affairs.

I'm not going to argue with you on whether God exists or not. ^_^ I'm not the best
person for that kind of thing.


Personally I think I've got you there. YOu ran out of arguments. How is it OK to kill an aware being (a cow) and not OK to kill a collection of cells that hasn't developed a brain yet?

If you really have all the answers, then there is a god. That god would be you. Until you can claim such, there is no point preaching to anyone.

- Shimarisu



Once again, then you can preach to us?

All I know is what has happened to me, I can not speak for everyone or do I try to.

I was a mistake, I was unplanned. My mother had the choice to abort me. She didnt do so. And here I am, for better or for worse, I live. I dont have any answers for this thread, all I have is that my mother gave me the opportunity, even when life is hard, I am glad I was given the chance to find out about life.



Big whoop, I was a mistake too. I was conceived by two drunken fucks in the back of a Morris Oxford, in summer 1974 after a party. My dad was a kid whose mother chose to have him despite already having 6 kids, and he grew up in a children's home. I'd rather have been aborted than suffer his poor attempt at fathering.

- Shimarisu

[Daikarin]

I was made on one of the rescue boats that remained from the Titanic, on a desperate attempt to escape the cold by my parents.





















Just kidding http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Scejntjynahl]

Big whoop, I was a mistake too. I was conceived by two drunken fucks in the back of a Morris Oxford, in summer 1974 after a party. My dad was a kid whose mother chose to have him despite already having 6 kids, and he grew up in a children's home. I'd rather have been aborted than suffer his poor attempt at fathering.

- Shimarisu



But then we all would have missed your intellectual rants...

[InCognito]

Big whoop, I was a mistake too. I was conceived by two drunken fucks in the back of a Morris Oxford, in summer 1974 after a party. My dad was a kid whose mother chose to have him despite already having 6 kids, and he grew up in a children's home. I'd rather have been aborted than suffer his poor attempt at fathering.

- Shimarisu

I know you feel that way now, but you can't make that assertation in its entireity until your life is at/near its end. Don't ever say you wish you had not existed, for the impact on the lives around you would never have existed, either. Thus greatly altering the course of events.

[Hrith]

No life is in vain, Shimarisu, whether you believe in God or not.

[_Sinue_]

Don't ever say you wish you had not existed, for the impact on the lives around you would never have existed, either. Thus greatly altering the course of events.

Course of events dosen't matter. You'd see it as an alteration if you're looking at it from the outside.. but since you're a part of those events.. having someone never exist wouldn't matter to you - because you'd never be presented with THIS course of events to draw a contrast to.

[Vanango]

This was an old thread from over the summer:
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=52586&forum=9

Also, quoting myself:


The topic of abortion is so hackneyed. There's nothing either parties can say that is new or different. It would be interesting to see a tie in with religion, but regardless, I'm going to throw together a pro and con abortion refute and support "conversation"

Pro Choice: It's the women's choice (with what she does with her body)
Pro Life: It was also her choice of not taking the proper procedure of taking care of herself
Pro Choice: Hey, accidents happen
Pro Life: Not if you are using birth control and some sort of contraceptive
Pro Choice: Accidents still happen. What about people that were raped?
Pro Life: It's still their own fault, chances are they provoked it. Besides, what about the morning after pill? They have 72 hours after the rape to take the pill. They were asking for it. If people were more responsible...
Pro Choice: You numbnuts, first off the majority of rapes aren't reported and many of them are committed by a guy that a girl thought she could trust. And what about date rape? Secondly the morning afterpill, do you have any idea how it works? Assuming a girl is all ready ovulating, it irritates the lining of the uterus and prevents the very very tiny baby from attaching itself to the lining of the uterus, thus killing it.
Pro Life: What are you talking about? That's not abortion!
Pro Choice: What is?
Pro Life: It's Killing! It's Murder! It's the direct act of taking away a life of a human!
Pro Choice: Yes. And a human is formed at fertilization. Morning after pill equals chemical abortion that makes a women's body reject the baby and it has no way of living. Abortion.
Pro Life: It's still killing. Bad stuff happens to people, it happens to everyone, you have to deal with it. Just because it doesn't work well in your life doesn't mean you can justify by just removing it. Yea, it's sad, it's unfortunate, but it's something you have to deal with!!
Pro Choice: But they ARE dealing with it!
Pro Life: You can't just kill your problems. It's a baby, it's inhumane no matter what way you look at it, why can't you see that?
Pro Choice: Inhumane? Do you even think about the food you eat and the process in which it goes through before it makes its way through your mouth?
Pro Life: You are comparing a cow to a human?
Pro Choice: I'm comparing it to an embryo, do you think it has the capacity of feeling pain? It's of such a low structure, how can you feel so much remorse for something that isn't even a being yet be so indifferent when eatting *anything* processed? I think you are a hypocrite. On top of that abortion is a way to deal with life.
Pro Life: Did you just hear yourself? Death to deal with life??
Pro Choice: Yes, stop interrupting me, if you broke your leg, would you go treat it or just let it heal naturally?
Pro Life: Where the hell are you going with this? How is that relevant?
Pro Choice: You'd get it treated, you'd do something about it. Instead of just "dealing" with it without having it treated
Pro Life: That didn't make any sense. No one's life was at stake. Why can't you see death is death and it can't be justified?
Pro Choice: What happens if your dad rapes your sister?
Pro Life: That's really gross, besides, I don't have a sister
Pro Choice: You are missing the point, what if it was your best friend, your girlfriend!? Guess what? It happens in life and the results? A mutilated child? Deformed? Retarded?
Pro Life: Life isn't always pretty, you can't make exceptions.
Pro Choice: Yea, and death is part of life.
Pro Life: The difference is you are taking away even their opportunity to try and live it
Pro Choice: So you'd rather a child be born and not be able to be taken care of? Having to suffer from malnutrition? There are a lot of people, teens especially, that can't handle that responsibility
Pro Life: They shouldn't be having sex in the first place.
Pro Choice: That's not the issue. You can't make them stop having sex, it's hormones. A child having to endure suffering? And ultimately death in a lot of cases?
Pro Life: Haven't you heard of adoption? Besides, a lot of kids start out rough any ways.
Pro Choice: Haven't you heard of over population? You're evidently okay with pain and suffering.
Pro Life: Well this debate is only going to become more and more circuitous and banal
Pro Choice: Hey! I agree! Let's go play PSO!
Pro Life: Okay! *frolic*

*watches people fall back into their dogmatisms and relativisms.*

[Serapies]

If a girl wants to have sex but no baby then why does she have sex during her PERIOD in the first place.

[Guntz348]

And this was bumped because why now?