Get your own art style, people.

[Uncle_bob]

This isn't directed at anyone particular and isn't meant to offend. But it seems like 9/10 artists Uncle sees on the internet just draws anime. Over. And over. And over.

Yea, some people can draw it "well", others do a horribly shitty job at it. (Although Uncle leans toward the though of anime looking like garbage in the first place) But gawd people, get your own style for once! ESPECIALLY if you can't draw anime that well. Maybe if you come up with your own style you can come up with something that looks great. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Again, this isn't poking anyone particular, just a random rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Kizaragu]

Isn't this a little unfair?
If someone enjoys drawing in an anime style let them, after all it's not hurting anyone.
What's wrong with that?

And why only target anime? Why not start on say abstract?
Just because you don't a style of drawing or think a picture is crap, You have no right to tell someone to stop doing it. As long as it's not hurting anyone, what's the big deal?

When I sit down to draw, I don't think WOW I'm gonna do some anime because it's cool. I sit down and draw what I want or feel like drawing.
If it comes up anime-fied, Big-friggin-deal.

[Blatt4Life]

Honestly I really do not care if it is drawn over and over again, atleast they are giving it a try. Like already posted, if it is not going to hurt anything, then why not do it?
I guess after a while you might feel the need to rant, that I can understand.

[Uncle_bob]

Ugh. Don't you see? 90%, maybe even more, of the artists Uncle sees on the net just draw ANIME! MAHGAWD! It gets annoying seeing the same looking characters drawn over and over.

Don't you people like variety?

And abstract doesn't seem to pop up everywhere like Anime does.

[Blatt4Life]

Well when you say "9/10 on the internet", it really depends on where you are looking. Variety is nice, but I really do not see anything wrong with drawing anime.

[bordering]

...pso is done in an anime-esque style. and we all love pso don't we?

heh.

but i actually sorta agree with you. except that, well, i don't care. anime is a huge trend right now and it doesn't show any signs of letting go its stranglehold on dork culture anytime soon ever. i don't like it, but if other people do, well that's their problem.

[Ness]

On 2004-03-30 15:29, Uncle_bob wrote:
Ugh. Don't you see? 90%, maybe even more, of the artists Uncle sees on the net just draw ANIME! MAHGAWD! It gets annoying seeing the same looking characters drawn over and over.

Don't you people like variety?

And abstract doesn't seem to pop up everywhere like Anime does.



I hate to sound like an asshole, but no one forces you to look at their pictures. I think people should be allowed to draw what they want, how they want.

Now I admit that drawing anime-style stuff does limit your ability to improve, but to each his own.

[FOAtHeart]

i am sad now. ;_; uncle hates me! wwwwagh!

[Pancake]

I agree Uncle Bob, we need more people like Picasso these days Creative people.

[Sord]

lots of stuff about art today... well, three, but that's quite a bit for one subject on PSOW.

any how, i don't have a problem with anime, despite the hair, clothes, and occasional elf ears, it's often comes to being the closest to reality unless your using SD. The only thing better would probably be using CG, but not everyone can afford that, let alone basic media programs.

[Outrider]

It's sort of a problem when people will stick to a style that just isn't their own without trying to experiment. I think it's good to try out different styles when you're an artist. What I found bizarre was how when Batou posted some art that was more western-style than his other work, not too many people seemed to like it compared to his other stuff. It was genuninely good, but just because his art looked like what a professional artist would turn in for Marvel or DC instead of a professional manga artist made people dislike it?

And Sord, there are several current mainstream comic artists that are more realistic than anime. To be fair, most artists nowadays have been influenced by anime, so in some cases it's hard to distinguish the line between western and eastern art styles. Not to say that's a bad thing, just bringing up the point.

[Sord]

On 2004-03-30 18:13, Outrider wrote:

And Sord, there are several current mainstream comic artists that are more realistic than anime. To be fair, most artists nowadays have been influenced by anime, so in some cases it's hard to distinguish the line between western and eastern art styles. Not to say that's a bad thing, just bringing up the point.


i know what your talkin about, my friends collect a lot of western comics (mostly x-men, but other things here and there) The only thing that bugs me about that is, the good ones have either a.) been around for a long time and the corporations making them are just trying to squeeze every last drop out of them, or b.) the story is in need of serious work. If anyone knows any good western comics that are realistic looking, have a good story, and haven't been around for years on end (batman, superman, x-men, eccetra) please tell me!

[Uncle_bob]

http://pso-world.com/images/contests/valentines/vday2.jpg

Mahgawd..this is just sad...Anime characters tend to look more like insects than people. Not being rude to whoever drew this but Uncle is just making a point.


...pso is done in an anime-esque style. and we all love pso don't we?

heh.

PSO characters look pretty "normal". A bit..not sure what word to use..fake? They don't have bug eyes and mouths about as short as a 1,000 pound man's reach.


I hate to sound like an asshole, but no one forces you to look at their pictures. I think people should be allowed to draw what they want, how they want.

Oh? Well, whenever Uncle views any PSO artwork (other art as well..ugh) more than half the entries are generic goofy looking anime.

But they should be able to draw what they want, yesh.

i am sad now. ;_; uncle hates me! wwwwagh!

No no, Uncle doesn't hate anyone, he's just making a rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Sord]

On 2004-03-30 18:28, Uncle_bob wrote:

No no, Uncle doesn't hate anyone, he's just making a rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



actually it sounds more like a request for modern art. and even though i didn't quote the picture thing, that's SD form, not all anime is like that. It seems more like your tired of a certain style of anime. In reality, anime is just a style that seems to the best of my knowledge to originate from japan, so what's to say modern art originating in japan isn't anime? Well, we all know what your talking about any ways, so why don't you just ignore the technicalities of vocabulary http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

But what would you think of someone doing non-anime art? I mean, Navi did some watercolors that weren't anime at all. Why don't you pop a request in fanworks for something in a non-anime style. More productive then just ranting about it.

[Uncle_bob]

On 2004-03-30 18:35, Sord wrote:
But what would you think of someone doing non-anime art? I mean, Navi did some watercolors that weren't anime at all. Why don't you pop a request in fanworks for something in a non-anime style. More productive then just ranting about it.



Uncle is too tired to follow the first part of your post, but he'll try again later. Anyhow, if Uncle said that in Fanworks that wouldn't turn out too well.

[Deathscythealpha]

I think that the problem might lay with what media you are looking at. Alot of japanese games have an anime styled feel to them, so when people do fan art for them, they do it in the anime style.

Now americain games seemed to be more inspired by films and comics. You wouldnt see any Doom of Max Payne fan art done in an anime style (but if there is, i would like to see it, sounds funny).

PSO's art is anime styled, very anime styled. The only problem is there is alot of different anime styles. Compare DBZ to Boogiepop Phantom. DBZ has wierd shaped faces, large foreheads and massive unrealistic hair. Boogiepop Phantom has normally proportioned bodies, heads and hair. Maybe the only thing that give it away are the slightly larger eyes on the female characters. The piece of art Uncle Bob posted was from the SD (super deformed) anime style, so of course their going to look wierd.

You can probably find some normal styled art on the web by looking for something less anime inspired. There is some really good Half Life 2 fan art out there somewhere that is really realistic *wishes he had saved that kick ass picture*.

[Bradicus]

Heh, in my opinion, this decade will be known for its reality TV shows (much like the afro [a sort of "WTF were we thinking?" memory]) and, to the more nerdily inclined, the invasion of Japanese culture.

Face it unc, it's the thing now. Hell, american production houses are pumping out cheap imitations as you read this. I know many of you are prolly hard core fans, but you can not deny that it is far more mainstream now. Most of the targeted age group (young teens) were introduced to anime through pokemon or some such show.

The fad will pass, as all do.

[Sord]

On 2004-03-30 18:56, Bradicus wrote:

The fad will pass, as all do.


lets hope so, then the prices will go down. why would anyone in their right mind pay $15.00 U.S. dollars just to buy a cut DBZ video (not DVD), and the uncut it $20.00 by the way. Aslo seen a FLCL DVD with two episodes for ten bucks. I was like, "Screw that man! I'll just have my friend rip it off CN and stick it on a DVD-R on high quality for free" and that's what i did http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Nai_Calus]

Yes, of course anime DVDs are expensive. For one thing, the market will bear the cost, so there's no reason to lower it. For another thing, consider all the things that must be done:

Purchase rights to distribute x anime in US.
Hire translators to translate the show for the subtitles.
Hire someone to adapt the translation for the dub.
Hire people to handle the technical aspects of timing the sub, etc.
Hire voice actors to perform the dub.
Hire someone to direct them.
Hire the other people who work in the studio.
Hire people to create the menus etc for the DVD.
Etc.

Anime style... Well, which one? Let's start with broad categories.

Shoujo?
Shounen?
Mahou shoujo?
Mecha?
Comedy?
Serious?
Realistic?
Unrealistic?

There is no one real 'anime style'. You seem to be reffering to chibi/super deformed, which irks me too at times, but not all anime is drawn that way. The mangaka that draw the manga that anime is usually based off of have their own style which is adapted for the anime, and different series look completely different.

Consider One Piece vs Shin Seiki Evangelion vs Sailor Moon vs Utena vs Dragonball Z. Not much in common, eh? Big eyes, small mouth? More or less, I suppose, but do they really have anything in common outside of that?

And personally I dislike the more 'classic' examples of american comic book style. It's even less realistic than manga. Bulging muscles everywhere. Geh.

And most american cartoons aren't drawn anywhere near realisticly either. Watched a Disney movie lately? Er... Ew.

*shrug*

[KodiaX987]

There aren't forty million ways to draw a character.

Case closed.

[_Ted_]

On 2004-03-30 20:21, KodiaX987 wrote:
There aren't forty million ways to draw a character.

Case closed.



Unless that character is Shurikane apparently.

[navci]

Aww. Uncle hates navi's avatar.

Heh. I kinda do know what you're trying to say tho. ... But I'll have to say it depends on where to look. I mean, honestly, if I were to do an abstract PSO fanart what do you think it'd be like?

If you were to look at fan art you're bound to find more anime-style (whichever you're referring to) than others. If you do look in a broader category you might be able to find something different. ... I am not entirely sure what I am talking about. But I do agree everyone seems to draw in the same styel over and over again. .... You just have to look harder for something more refreshing, I suppose?

[Outrider]

To go with my point of realistic western art:

Jay Anceleato:

http://www.thepunisher.com/past_news/august_2003/marvels.jpg

John Cassidy:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rkkman/frames/imagepage/SnowWP.jpg

Brian Hitch:

http://www.imakinarium.net/comic/ABC%20autores/H/Hitch/3X3/7.jpg

I'd say those artists are pretty realistic.

As most people have been saying though, since PSO has anime-inspired art, it's understandable to have anime-inspired fan art.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Outrider on 2004-03-31 18:53 ]</font>

[LollipopLolita]

1. i agree with uncle but am too tired to say why so i'll say it tomorrow. though i will say hundreds of kids thinking they can draw (albeit the fact that all they draw is anime) go to art schools wanting to be illustrators only to drop out or realize their skills is fundamentally lacking especially in proportions and anatomy.

2. that is so not realistic. since when did you see that people's anatomy is like that. that's idealized. even the lighting and color is idealized. you don't see that in normal everyday sidewalk scenes right? well then that's not realistic. even the proportions of superheroes are different. it's 9:1 as opposed to human 7:1. see people with bulging muscles and wings like that? and anime is skewed.

if you're talking about true western realism, this is it: (the ash can school)

http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/images/boxing/club_night.jpg

[Saladwood]

if you think american comic book art is a good depiction of realistic western art, then you don't know that much about the art out there.

even comics that are more realistic than what you linked to are still very idealized and not really realistic

[Outrider]

As I said, I was pointing out modern mainstream Western comic art that looks more like real people than anime.

While it is mostly idealized, I'd say they appear to be more human than most mainstream anime artists tend to make their characters.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Outrider on 2004-03-31 14:41 ]</font>

[LollipopLolita]

actually they're both not like humans. one is idealized one is more deformed.

[Outrider]

...But the whole point of idealized is that they're supposed to be what a "perfect" human would look like. Isn't that the definition? Ignoring dramatic angles and lighting and whatnot, let's just look at the way the person is drawn. Based solely on faces, I'd say western art represents a human's face more accurately, while many mainstream anime artists will present it in a more stylized form. They might lack nosebones in some cases or have exaggerated cheekbones. That sort of thing.

I dunno. I'm going off of half a semester of art history and years of reading comic books. You'd probably know better, but this is the way I've seen it.

[LollipopLolita]

actually you're contradicting yourself, if it is idealized then it cannot be realistic. those two are not the same. ideal is more something that is excellent and plain humans are not ideal. realistic would be painting every wrinkle in, idealizing would be not having those wrinkles.

and in illustration terms, when it comes to comic book heroes, the proportions is not proportions used for humans like i said, so again it is not realistic. comic book heroes are beyond perfect humans. (idea of perfect humans btw is not realistic) and the muscles and structure are overly exaggerated and sometimes there are even too many muscles or the anatomy is overemphasized to give them that look. if you look at most comic book heroes, you'd realize, just like the anime characters, they're anatomically wrong or nearly impossible. is it realistic that everyone has rippling muscles like that? you're telling me comic book heroines don't have exaggerated cheekbones? are you sure?

they're just each their own styles, not one is better than the other. to say so would be foolish. each has its own merits and uses. besides both anime and "western" comic book style have their own little sub styles that are different as well. and hey, the anime look all started with bambi.

[Sharkyland]

How I learned to draw is by copying some work, then started incorporating ideas from different artworks, and now I have my own... art style. Still wondering what to compare it to though.

[Outrider]

This is turning into a semantics argument. When I refer to realistic, I'm referring to the comparisons between real life and art, and the ability to recognize something for what it is supposed to represent. If you were to present the comparisons to an average person on the street, going off the standard definition of realism, they would most likely point out these artists. The use of the word realism in fine art is definitely more exact, when it comes down to presenting things without any dramatization.

But I disagree with the idea of idealization. Just because they are impossible, does not mean they don't look like humans. I'm not going to look at a Renaissance portrait and say it looks like a dog. It clearly looks like a person would if you took the perfect parts from many different people.

I'm not saying any of those comic artists are the epitome of realism, but I am instead referring to how they rank in terms of their field. I'm also not saying all artists of a certain style are like that. For every Alex Ross, there's a Skottie Young.

And hey, I love anime. I never said one was better than the other! I'd never do that!

[Saladwood]

i'm sorry but you can't use a term in a way that it means something in your head other than the definition of that word, and expect people to understand it or know what you initially meant, since it was only in YOUR head.

[LollipopLolita]

if it's black, would you call it white? so will it be an argument over semantics?

you can't use established terms and then twist them to mean what you want even though they mean something else.

realism in art means they portay it exactly like reality. thus realism.

comic book heroes proportions always goes back to the canon of proportions which was established by doryphoros' polekleitus which is idealized.

you're gonna argue over something that is already been established for centuries?

and btw i was talking about comic book heroes...

[opaopajr]

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif poor outrider. i suggest not using terms unless you are sure what they mean. i've been on that side of the fence before and it's no fun. trust me, english is a language with the biggest vocabulary - there's definitely words out there to describe what you're thinking about. and some words really do have a scholastic definition, like realism in the study of art history. so working off of vernacular interpretations are not a wise course of action.

so sorry. just buck up and continue with the conversation.

anyhoo, i actually agree with Uncle_Bob. there's been a deluge of anime-esque fan art. once upon a time it was pretty decent, but with all pop culture things, once popular the talentless start to rear their heads.

there really is a rich iconic language in Japanese animation and cartoons, and i think that's part of the appeal. it's really a very different way of seeing and expressing.

but enough is enough. sure it looks cool, but there are sub-groups within the style which very few avail themselves of. and there's a rich wealth of artistic style throughout the world which is being ignored. it's kind of like when the art world was rebelling against the extreme demands of realism in the middle 1800s. painters were feeling stifled and were burgeoning to be free to experiment. the result was one of the most exciting artistic revolutions in art history - the birth of impressionism, post-impressionism, expressionism, cubism, DaDa, et al. it took the small box painting was trapped into and shattered it. a wonderful thing.

so yeah, enjoy your mimicry of japanese style, but don't forget to explore and find your own. imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it stifles your own voice. don't be afraid to explore.

[KodiaX987]

To me, there are four art styles:

1) The Anime style.
2) The comic book style.
3) The realistic style.
4) The fucked-up style (i.e.: everything else)

I wish life could actually be as simple as that. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Outrider]

Sigh. Look, whatever. As I stated, the defined use of realism in the fine art world relates to literal realism, but the "average joe" use of it does not. Rather than continue this, I'm just going to bow out of the discussion. It's becoming more and more obvious that I've been taught different ideas of art, but whatever - not important. I'm not going to try to keep up with a debate when I don't have the background nor the proper examples to continue. So, uh... sorry for derailing the topic, Uncle. I, uh... like art? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

EDIT: I felt the quotation marks looked better.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Outrider on 2004-04-02 07:21 ]</font>

[Makojin]

The style that anime came from was mostly based on american comic strips from the 1950's. This was kinda explained how anime actually was taken from a western style in the Animatrix. I only rented the DVD so I can't quote it exactly.

[Sharkyland]

And this, my friends, is why I hate psychology, philosophy, and ethics...

*goes to play more PSO to kill more things in my mind*

[BRTW2]

I tend to draw and work with the image that have no name, they are just objects that have been twisted, distorted, and been inverted so that the color scheme looks unintentional. Then again, I do not put my works on the internet, i use them along with the anime characters I find on such sites at boyis.com and other anime heavy websites.

[Skuda]

Uncle Bob makes a good point. I love anime, but to much is just to much. Especially whan the DO do a horrible job. some people think they can draw like the wind, but draw like the dirt.

I draw anime, but I have my own style of it. and I think that's where uncle bob gets cheesed. I'm just guessing, but some people need to be a wee bit less generic. the same bloody thing over and over.

Oh well.

[BogusKun]

On 2004-03-30 13:40, Uncle_bob wrote:
This isn't directed at anyone particular and isn't meant to offend. But it seems like 9/10 artists Uncle sees on the internet just draws anime. Over. And over. And over.

Yea, some people can draw it "well", others do a horribly shitty job at it. (Although Uncle leans toward the though of anime looking like garbage in the first place) But gawd people, get your own style for once! ESPECIALLY if you can't draw anime that well. Maybe if you come up with your own style you can come up with something that looks great. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Again, this isn't poking anyone particular, just a random rant. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif



Thank you for pointing that out for me... I am getting a little tired of it... as if 90% of the students in professional art class (unbelievably) likes to draw in the anime art form... SCARY! And they complain about drawing real-form and in-class-task drawings for an assignment...

People need to realize that art isn't anime...

But if you're not an artist, and CAN draw in anime-style... I have nothing against you.

[LollipopLolita]

as if 90% of the students in professional art class (unbelievably) likes to draw in the anime art form... SCARY! And they complain about drawing real-form and in-class-task drawings for an assignment...

hehe and like i said, they go to art school, go through the horror of their lives because they have to draw realistically and drop out.

[KodiaX987]

Besides, have you guys seen the general bias? Have one artist draw one realistic picture, and one Anime picture. I'd put $500 on the table that the Anime pic will sell first.

[LollipopLolita]

how bout you just give me the 500 kodi?

[KodiaX987]

If that means I get an Avatar Upload feature just for me, I'm going for it. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[LollipopLolita]

personal avatar not enough? i can only say with the 500, there won't be any stupid rants discussions

[Guile]

Back in an old class/academy I had in Highschool I had to research an artist once and re-create his art. I ran into a guy who's "art" consisted of bitmap boxes.. each picture was the same just with a different amount of boxes and different opacity... Now that shit pissed me off. He was well recognized by a big time art Website.

[BogusKun]

Well, what's the big problem?

[Guile]

That too much SHIT is seen as art.

[Uncle_bob]

On 2004-04-09 03:34, Guile wrote:
That too much SHIT is seen as art.



No one could have phrased that better, so beautiful! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_cry.gif

[SorceressofTime]

ok, for one i skipped the rest of the pages and only read the first.

here's a hint to all those stupid annoying assholes out there: if you don't like it, SHUT THE FUCK UP! either that or you could decide to become blind.

if the artist has an explanation behind their artwork, then its considered art. why? because its expressing their ideas, feelings and imagination.
deal with it.

[Uncle_bob]

SorceressofTime wrote:
ok, for one i skipped the rest of the pages and only read the first.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif


here's a hint to all those stupid annoying assholes out there: if you don't like it, SHUT THE FUCK UP! either that or you could decide to become blind.

Everyone's flambait happy this week. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif And no, Uncle will not shut the fuck up, this is rants.


if the artist has an explanation behind their artwork, then its considered art. why? because its expressing their ideas, feelings and imagination.
deal with it.

Why don't the express their feeling with THEIR OWN STYLE? All the anime looks the same for gawd sakes, honestly. The characters are always excessively emo and are all "OH GOD THE WORLD SUCKS SOMEONE KILL ME".

- NUR NUR!

[Evil_Althena8]

I kinda have to agree with you. However, if someone is good at drawing only anime, then that's fine. At least they can draw

[SorceressofTime]

at least they try and not bad mouth.

[Orange_Coconut]

Truthfully, there is not "unique" style of drawing. Almost everything has been done at one point or another. There are types that I like more than others, but none I would call unique.

If people are trying to learn a certain style, let them. You have the option to view it or not, and they feel that they are best suited for whatever art style they choose. Whether you like it or not, certain things will not change. You can help, though, by critiquing an art piece. Some people are open to suggestions, even if what they are asked of is not their style. But it's their choice, since they are the artist.

I personally don't judge by type, I judge by what feeling/emotion was put into the piece and/or how well it was drawn.

[Lucian Kujaku]

I've been an anime artist since the 1980s.
Like hell I'm going to change my style just because a bunch of kids fell into a new trend and are raping the style senseless.

I grew up on astroboy and voltron. Me changing my artistic preference just because it got "popular" would be "selling out" to myself.

Yes. I've gone through art college. Yes, I'm talented in other art styles.
But the eastern style of art is what I grew up on, and it's my artistic preference.

When the fad of anime dies (which it will eventually), I'll still be drawing it, till the day *I* die.
Fad or no fad. It's the love of my life as an artist. Many people think I'm asian. Surpisingly... I'm not.

In my college.. I enrolled drawing anime.. while other students conformed to a more western style, I continued to draw anime as my preference.

I was complimented greatly by the program coordinator (sheridan tech) upon my graduation as one of the only students who stuck with their artistic preference... regardless of how much it was shunned.

Anime means crap in the art world because of recent events and popularity. But I still stick by it 100%. Not as some kind of fangirl/boy..... but as an artist.

Yes... this day and age you see it in enormous excess. But that does not mean every artist who draws it is untalented. I had to go through much critisism to follow my dreams.
I'll never conform to a western style.... never. Just because people are sick of it/don't like it.

[thunder-ray]

Holyshit this rant is 5 years old O_O I didnt know threads can last this long >_>.

[DreXxiN]

Well when you revive the thread, it kind of makes sense. I guess the guy posted before you like, went to page 52 or something. XD


I think the sheer amount of anime to other art ratio is pitiful and is far too plentiful as I also like variety, but it's not NEAR as annoying as someone constantly referring to themselves in third-person.

[Lucian Kujaku]

Sorry for the necromancy.
I was just peeved and did not check the date of the thread.

I found it via search.
Clumsy me. Much apologies! Please forgive my disregard.. for date and time. >_<;;

[AlexCraig]

Let's not revive a thread that has been dead for years.