Item: Holy Ray Error

[Ketchup345]

In the Holy Ray's weapon page, it says RAmars can use it. Their MST never gets above 665 (requirement is 680 MST).

http://www.pso-world.com/items.php?op=viewarticle&artid=117&sortby=class

[Pancake]

Yea thats true but RAmars CAN use it. It's just that their MST will never get that high. If your MST Got that high they could equip it.

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-11 11:48, Pancake wrote:
Yea thats true but RAmars CAN use it. It's just that their MST will never get that high. If your MST Got that high they could equip it.
What is the point of that statement ?
RAmars will never be able to use Holy Ray, it's like saying FOnewearl can use Soul Banish http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Pancake]

But they can use it but can't...What i am saying is if the item doesn't have an X by it the PSOW database is gonna say they can equip it

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-11 12:02, Pancake wrote:
But they can use it but can't...What i am saying is if the item doesn't have an X by it the PSOW database is gonna say they can equip it
Actually, no, because that would be a TOTAL mistake. There are a lot of guides here, there are bound to be some mistakes, Ketchup is right, I hope Lolli will update it, as well as the mistakes I pointed in my thread, here. Because some people may be mislead by the fact that there is no X in fron of the weapon, the S-Rank Mechgun is listed as non equipable by FOmar/l, yet there is no X in front of it with those chars, and this is just an example, another one, maube even better : there is no X in front of Amore Rose for Androids, yet, Androids will NEVER EVER have MST.

Got it, now ?

[Polar]

Well, as far as I can see, the game does two checks when seeing if someone can equip a weapon. First is the class check, to see if that class is technically allowed to equip the weapon. If not, big red cross. Then it checks if their stat is high enough If not, grey name. At no point does the game compare the highest possible value of that stat for a given class.
Following this, I PERSONALLY think the database is right. RAmars CAN equip the Holy Ray, just their MST doesn't go high enough. If Sonic Team had wanted to, they could just have set the class ability to false.

[Pancake]

On 2004-04-11 14:05, Polar wrote:
Well, as far as I can see, the game does two checks when seeing if someone can equip a weapon. First is the class check, to see if that class is technically allowed to equip the weapon. If not, big red cross. Then it checks if their stat is high enough If not, grey name. At no point does the game compare the highest possible value of that stat for a given class.
Following this, I PERSONALLY think the database is right. RAmars CAN equip the Holy Ray, just their MST doesn't go high enough. If Sonic Team had wanted to, they could just have set the class ability to false.



Thanks you, the main thing is the X

[Polar]

Exactly. I think the database should reflect the way the game works. Sure, having an "equippable" item that can never be equipped is dumb, but it's in-the-game dumb. That's how it works. Then again, if the database sees this differently on other items - and, looking at Sounomi's site, I see she does it the same way - maybe this really is a mistake.

[Hrith]

unless you can show me a RAmar with a Holy Ray or a FOnewearl with a Soul Banish or a HUcast with Amore Rose, you are totally wrong and your logic fails.

RAmar CANNOT use Holy Ray, that is a fact, anything you add is subjective.

PSOW, in my opinion, and I am not a member of the staff, should provide clear info for al players, which includes newbies.

You speculations only apply to yourselves.

[Soukosa]

I agree with Kef. The database should list whether that class is ever able to equip the weapon or not. Probably what happened, is that ST decided that a particular class could use the weapon, but either the requirement of the max class stats got changed and the part that determines whether the red X shows up or not, didn't get updated.

[VioletSkye]

I also think that the database should reflect which items a class can ACTUALLY equip (whether or not a weapon has an X by it means nothing.) Just because a Holy Ray could "theoretically" be equipped by a Ramar if his MST were higher doesn't mean you should list it as equippable. The Database, IMO, should accurately list which items can be equipped by a certain class as pertains to the parameters set by the game developers. Having "theoretical" listings for such items and classes (ie. Holy ray for Ramar) is misleading.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-04-11 14:36 ]</font>

[Pancake]

But still, who cares if you cannot equip it. It's fine as it is, and the staff feels this way. I guess when and if an AR allows a HUmar to use Foie then the database should say so? Thats what your getting at

[Polar]

Sorry to have riled people up with my opinion. There are other examples of this; for example, on Housoka, I'm fairly sure there are listings for certain Armors that have ranges of DFP/EVP boosts even though the item can only be created and thus have base stats (Safety Heart, I'm fairly sure about this). I suppose it comes down to whether you want your database to reflect reality or programming; this is a personal choice, so don't get so scathing about it.

KEF:
RAmar CANNOT use Holy Ray, that is a fact, anything you add is subjective.

No-one argued about that. What is NOT subjective is that the game itself has the Holy Ray listed as equippable, just without an obtainable stat limit. what IS subjective is how you want your database (if you run one yourself) to reflect this.

KEF:
You are totally wrong and your logic fails
Note that, in all three of my posts, I have emphasised that my opinions are merely that ("I PERSONALLY think" and "I think" in my first two posts). Don't impose your opinion on me; if I ran my OWN database, that is how I should run it. Naturally, not being able to speak for the Admins, this is how I personally think (note emphasis) the PSOW database should have it listed. but I'm not going to go mad if it doesn't. I'm not going to flame the mods saying they are totally wrong and their logic fails.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polar on 2004-04-11 15:04 ]</font>

[VioletSkye]

Although I do understand your point Polar, I think that for the good of the entire community here at PSOW, the database should and WILL BE updated with more accurate info soon. I know this for a fact because I am helping the mods with item stats which will be redone to fix the errors that are currently in the database (although I will say that for as many items as it has, the database was pretty accurate for the most part.)

As for equipping certain items, I also think it is a better service to the members here to list only the classes that have a "real world" chance of equipping an item. As Sou stated already, I also believe that many of the items that do not show an X by their name for certain classes that can't equip them were oversights by ST, and were meant to have an X by them.

[Hrith]

well I don't get your point, you want a weapon that cannot be equipped by a class to be listed as equippable ?
How is that not failed logic ?

I was not imposing my opinion, you're wrong, admit it. You are fooled by a red X in front of the weapon, or lack thereof, simple as that.

[Saladwood]

Okay guys, there's no wrong or right, it's a preference, cool down. Kef, really.

[Mixfortune]

***This is not taking into account hacks etc., considering that can bypass most of this.***

The way I see it, the red X is based upon a class/race combination being able to equip the item or not, ever. As the different versions come out and stats change, the X values remain (for several weapons, possibly for overlooking the changes). That way, if there was ever a newer version that changed the stat requirements, it would be easier to make the changes in only the stat requirement area rather than try and go through each item and check/uncheck the ABSOLUTE equip state (never equip) for a new version.

Perhaps this might explain it better.
Look at the ver.1/ver.2 requirements for equipping a Holy Ray. It is shown to be based off of ATA. Thus, it is very likely that a RAmar could equip it then (and most likely intended to be able to; it has no X). As the versions change, the Xs don't really seem to that much, besides rangers using partisans, etc.. Yet, for Holy Ray, the requirement is now MST. The RAmar just simply does not have enough MST to be able to use the weapon.

These sorts of changes from version to version are one of the reasons why (I think) that there are even different "These classes can equip" charts for each version. Because it changes.

So, in short, I would recommend making use of the different "These classes can equip" charts and listing RAmar as not being able to use Holy Ray. Believe it or not, some people still play the DC version.

EDIT- Also note that according to the charts, in ver.1/ver.2 androids could equip the Holy Ray since its requirements were based on ATA. In the ver.3 charts, since it is based off MST, androids are not listed, because they will never in normal gameplay ever reach that amount.

The only reason I can think that RAmar is listed as equippable on the site is just a harmless mistake. I definitely would not have expected RAmars not to be able to equip the Holy Ray, but that's how it is. Like I said, there's a good reason for the seperate ver.1/ver.2 and ver.3 charts, in more ways than one.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mixfortune on 2004-04-11 16:34 ]</font>

[Soukosa]

Androids see a red X next to the name if they look at the Holy Ray and on the DC version, androids could equip it. So, that explaination doesn't hold any water at all.

[Mixfortune]

I had checked the Holy Ray page and editted my post.
Also I did not mean that necessarily all X's were unchanged, as many weapons and items did change in their X states. I'm just saying that it makes it easier for them to not particularly worry about that sort of thing.

Either that or it was just overlooked by ST.

Also my main point was that there are different equip charts for the different versions for a number of reasons, this sort of thing might not be one on purpose, but it still could be used to fulfill that "duty".


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mixfortune on 2004-04-11 16:33 ]</font>

[Polar]

On 2004-04-11 15:17, Kef wrote:
well I don't get your point, you want a weapon that cannot be equipped by a class to be listed as equippable ?
How is that not failed logic ?

I was not imposing my opinion, you're wrong, admit it. You are fooled by a red X in front of the weapon, or lack thereof, simple as that.

I'm actually not going to say any more of this. I just ask that people actually read my posts before deciding that I'm "fooled" by anything. I know my RAmars max stats. I certainly know he'll never be able to equip the Holy Ray, even if the game taunts otherwise. I don't want to have a fight in front of certain members of this board whose respect I've been trying to gain through good posting.
Thanks to those members who've agreed that it's a personal opinion thing.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polar on 2004-04-12 03:36 ]</font>

[Primrose]

The arguments from both sides were filled with very good points, but to make my point clear, and short:
The Database says Usable by the following classes and fact is, Holy Ray is not usable by RAmars, so X or not, its not usable no matter what, and i think thats what Kef was trying to say.


On 2004-04-11 15:12, VioletSkye wrote:
Although I do understand your point Polar, I think that for the good of the entire community here at PSOW, the database should and WILL BE updated with more accurate info soon. I know this for a fact because I am helping the mods with item stats which will be redone to fix the errors that are currently in the database (although I will say that for as many items as it has, the database was pretty accurate for the most part.)


Are you joking?
From all the weapons i have checked, 34,8% were correct and had nothing to add to, i find that a pretty high result. Note that i didnt even have a look at the Usable by the following classes and ATP variance.

[Polar]

Closure, people? I'm happy with that summary. Kef?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Polar on 2004-04-12 03:56 ]</font>

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-04-12 03:50, Primrose wrote:
The arguments from both sides were filled with very good points, but to make my point clear, and short:
The Database says Usable by the following classes and fact is, Holy Ray is not usable by RAmars, so X or not, its not usable no matter what, and i think thats what Kef was trying to say.


On 2004-04-11 15:12, VioletSkye wrote:
Although I do understand your point Polar, I think that for the good of the entire community here at PSOW, the database should and WILL BE updated with more accurate info soon. I know this for a fact because I am helping the mods with item stats which will be redone to fix the errors that are currently in the database (although I will say that for as many items as it has, the database was pretty accurate for the most part.)


Are you joking?
From all the weapons i have checked, 34,8% were correct and had nothing to add to, i find that a pretty high result. Note that i didnt even have a look at the Usable by the following classes and ATP variance.


I checked the actual game data against what was posted on the board for each item and like I said, it was pretty accurate for the most part (meaning overall.) I did find many, many errors and those have been fixed. Alot of the problems I think arose from the fact that some of the stats may have been reflecting older DC info. Also, alot of the ATA stats were wrong because whoever submitted them originally forgot to exclude hit %'s. Anyway, it no longer matters because the info I submitted came from the game data itself and IS accurate.

[Hrith]

On 2004-04-12 03:55, Polar wrote:
Closure, people? I'm happy with that summary. Kef?
Yeah, I did not mean to sound harsh, I just do, I was not mad or anything, calm as ever, when I read Saladwood's post I was like o_O wtf ? then I read my own posts, and yeah, I do sound aggressive, I meant no disrespect.

Now it's up to Salad and Lolli to do the updates http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Primrose]

On 2004-04-13 10:08, VioletSkye wrote:

I checked the actual game data against what was posted on the board for each item and like I said, it was pretty accurate for the most part (meaning overall.) I did find many, many errors and those have been fixed. Alot of the problems I think arose from the fact that some of the stats may have been reflecting older DC info. Also, alot of the ATA stats were wrong because whoever submitted them originally forgot to exclude hit %'s. Anyway, it no longer matters because the info I submitted came from the game data itself and IS accurate.



Strange, so you have updated the whole Item Database?
Well i do not know exactly what you have checked but ive been working on the Database for quite a while now and still havent finished.
It maybe is a good thing to know what others are working on as i do not want to waste any time testing weapons that have already been corrected.
But that you say its quite accurate still astounds me, for example: from all the Canes, all of them needed some fixing.
Most weapons have the wrong special listed or are inaccurate and vague, (finding out what special a weapon has is what is the most time consuming) or if not then the stats are just wrong.

[VioletSkye]

On 2004-04-13 14:31, Primrose wrote:

On 2004-04-13 10:08, VioletSkye wrote:

I checked the actual game data against what was posted on the board for each item and like I said, it was pretty accurate for the most part (meaning overall.) I did find many, many errors and those have been fixed. Alot of the problems I think arose from the fact that some of the stats may have been reflecting older DC info. Also, alot of the ATA stats were wrong because whoever submitted them originally forgot to exclude hit %'s. Anyway, it no longer matters because the info I submitted came from the game data itself and IS accurate.



Strange, so you have updated the whole Item Database?
Well i do not know exactly what you have checked but ive been working on the Database for quite a while now and still havent finished.
It maybe is a good thing to know what others are working on as i do not want to waste any time testing weapons that have already been corrected.
But that you say its quite accurate still astounds me, for example: from all the Canes, all of them needed some fixing.
Most weapons have the wrong special listed or are inaccurate and vague, (finding out what special a weapon has is what is the most time consuming) or if not then the stats are just wrong.



I have no idea if all the changes have been made to this site yet. I only know that the info I collected and submitted is correct. I know all of the Flowen Models were wrong but have been changed and corrected (as that was one that stuck in my mind that I decided to check.) I didn't bother to keep a list of which items were wrong as I really didn't care. I put all of my info into an excel spreadsheet that I submitted to Lolli.

I think you have misunderstood what I said originally. I was helping to compile the correct stats for EACH AND EVERY WEAPON. As for making changes to THIS SITE, I don't have the ability to do that, so I submitted my info and whether or not all those changes are now accurately depicted I really could not say because:

A. I'm too lazy to look
B. I really don't give a rat's ass lol.

Aside from getting the damage variances, the rest is easy as hell. Load up a weapon and write down the info. It ain't rocket science lol.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: VioletSkye on 2004-04-13 15:07 ]</font>

[Primrose]

I have no idea if all the changes have been made to this site yet. I only know that the info I collected and submitted is correct. I know all of the Flowen Models were wrong but have been changed and corrected (as that was one that stuck in my mind that I decided to check.) I didn't bother to keep a list of which items were wrong as I really didn't care.

Interesting, i checked it and compared it with my results and they seemed be accurate, although i think item descriptions are missing for a few, but you said you looked only at the stats.
But thats another problem i have while correcting the database, im doing as much work as if i would start my own database.

I put all of my info into an excel spreadsheet that I submitted to Lolli.

If youve done more corrections than to the Flowens Sword models, could you send me the same sheet? (PM me for this)


I think you have misunderstood what I said originally. I was helping to compile the correct stats for EACH AND EVERY WEAPON. As for making changes to THIS SITE, I don't have the ability to do that, so I submitted my info and whether or not all those changes are now accurately depicted I really could not say because:

A. I'm too lazy to look
B. I really don't give a rat's ass lol.

All items you say? I skimmed through the Database once again to check a few items and some were wrong, im confused though, the information is not the same as when i first started correcting it, the thing is, i wrote down whats wrong, not what the stats are, now its going to be quite hard...
I guess ill have to PM LollipopLolita if she doesnt read this, because if youve done it with all items i guess my work is no more needed.

And i know you cannot make any changes to this site, it was probably just my bad english http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

Aside from getting the damage variances, the rest is easy as hell. Load up a weapon and write down the info. It ain't rocket science lol.

Believe me, to get hold of a weapon, fully grind it, check the stats, the item description, compare it with the Database and write everything down, check which special abilities it has (healing/draining HP, reduced range, no-combo ability etc) and which special attack is has and trying to be accurate at the same time (saying The Windmill spins and releases energy as a mysterious attack. is a very vague way of describing a special, i was rather thinking of something like this In order to execute the special attack, make the Windmill spin by swinging the weapon or by targeting an enemy with the weapon. The damage dealt is the same as with a hard attack, the accuracy is like a special attack. The Windmill reaches Handgun-range and hits one enemy.) is probably way more than rocket science (well, admitedly it isnt, but its a whole lot of work to do too).
Like i said, i didnt even look at ATP variances, as i do plan to live a real life.

[VioletSkye]

Well I have all the weapons except for 2 ID cards and 1 Flowen Model and 1 DB Model, so thats what I used. Its actually very easy, but I agree it is time consuming. Grinders aren't a big deal as you can just dupe what you need for whichever item (since its for testing purposes, its not really a big deal.) Anyway, the except for the 4 items I'm missing, I personally checked everything else. If I made any errors, please let me know and I will change my data sheet. I've been too busy to finish checking all the specials or to begin working on equippable status.

Again, if you see an error in my work, please let me know and I can make the changes. I tried to go as fast as I could and still be as accurate as possible. I'll post my sheet on a site tonight and give you the link so that you can look it over if you want. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Primrose]

Again, if you see an error in my work, please let me know and I can make the changes. I tried to go as fast as I could and still be as accurate as possible.

Hm, if you only looked at the stats i guess it would make sense if i would do the special and item descriptions, however, ive seen a few requirement mistakes.
But at least the work would be shared and therefore cut into half.


I'll post my sheet on a site tonight and give you the link so that you can look it over if you want. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Note that what is tonight for you, is early in the morning for me http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif *points to From*
Ill have a look then when the link is up.

[Getintothegame]

I used to use it with my RAmar on the Dreamcast. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Besides that, I remember this: Someone was legitamately using it online. O.o

How about using Mind Mats? GOD/MIND?

[Ketchup345]

On 2004-04-13 17:27, Getintothegame wrote:
I used to use it with my RAmar on the Dreamcast. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Besides that, I remember this: Someone was legitamately using it online. O.o

How about using Mind Mats? GOD/MIND?


Nope, RAmar's max MST is 665. The requirement is 680 MST.

The RAmar can't do ANYTHING that would let him use the Holy Ray. (Mind Mats and God/Mind raise stats inside the (xxx)s, which can't go over class limit).


Thanks for changing it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-04-17 07:18 ]</font>