I'm ME not WE, damnit!

[Cowboy]

OK, lesse what I've seen alot of..

I'm 17, cannot even vote, yet since I'm an American, I'm a piece of shit. So what if I can't vote, and don't have control of who the president is. So what if I wasn't alive during the vietnam war. Hell, I'm an American, and THAT overrides any LOGIC that could be applied here.

But people will continue to hold biases against myself and others, and continue to think that since I'm an American, I must support all of my governments descisions, and I also must have the abilty to control the free will of my country's leaders, both those of my present time and those around before I was even born.

But I do have one thing to say:

To those two immigrants who moved to America, are legal US citizens, and took a class with me this semester:

You're an American too, you fucktard. You moved to this country that you call a piece of shit, because there was something here you couldnt get at home. Maybe youre just a so overflowing with hate for America that you had to come here and tell everyone your opinion, or maybe you came here because your country couldnt provide you with an education. I dont really give a damn. Youve proven yourselves to be illogical pricks, and until you realize that yourer wrong in this situation, and should actually ASK my fucking opinion before you go off on me because of what "I" did, you can bite my fucking ass, thank you.

[Dangerous55]

Backstory?

[_Ted_]

Can we perhaps get a news clip for the 2 murders that occured after the class?

[DurakkenX]

They are dumber than me and I'm pretty dumb so thas pretty sad

[ABDUR101]

He most likely has classmates who immigrated from another country and they are against the wars and decisions America has made, present and past.

Not uncommon really, but oh well.

I was born and raised in America, and as already said, doesn't mean I agree with every decision, nor have a say in what is done, as no citizen truely does in the end. Wars will be carried out, orders will be issued, ultimately we're all just along for the ride, so who cares?

Just ignore your classmates if they're going to turn it into a personal arguement against you and "your" country, heh. Some people's opinions you just don't even take into consideration, an example would be someone who is just really extreme with their view.

[Cowboy]

On 2004-05-01 19:09, _Ted_ wrote:
Can we perhaps get a news clip for the 2 murders that occured after the class?



Why waste my time? They dissed the entire class.

[DurakkenX]

actually the way the governmet is set up is if you can get enough people who have the ball to go up to washing ton DC and say get the fuck out...GW has to get the fuck out

[Ness]

I think it's funny whenever an immigrant insults America. It just doesn't make sense. If he hates America so much, then why did he come here?

[ABDUR101]

On 2004-05-01 20:19, Ness wrote:
I think it's funny whenever an immigrant insults America. It just doesn't make sense. If he hates America so much, then why did he come here?


They're entitled to not agree with what America does, since even American's don't agree with what the American government does.

And obviously, they're here for a better education or better jobs, or whatever they keep coming for, who knows! But in the end, no one has to wholeheartedly agree with what action is taken on behalf of America. Hell, I actually don't care really.

[Armok]

Post withdrawn

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Armok on 2004-05-02 12:04 ]</font>

[Ness]

On 2004-05-01 22:25, ABDUR101 wrote:

They're entitled to not agree with what America does, since even American's don't agree with what the American government does.

And obviously, they're here for a better education or better jobs, or whatever they keep coming for, who knows! But in the end, no one has to wholeheartedly agree with what action is taken on behalf of America. Hell, I actually don't care really.



I'm not saying that they have to agree with everything America does, I obviously don't (you'd know that if you had read my posts in other threads). I;m talking aobut the ones that hate America and everything in it even though they voluntarily chose to come here. I know they are here because they can get things here that they can't get anywhere else.


Let me put this another way. Your 17, you think your opinion is important, in fact you think your important. Now heres the hard pill to swollow. Your not.

Basically your entrie policical knowlegde comes from either your small group of adolencent friends or your parents and unless you happen to have an IQ of 250 and have read into the historys of other countries politics, you really shouldnt be debating about these kind of things. Your blind loyality to your country comes from years of being made to quote the national anthem, having a totally biased news network and an american flag on the front of your house.

Your happy little wrapped up world doesnt let you see the child labour used by nike in the far east, the schools bombed in iraq and the exploted labour factorys in Mexico. Go out and get some real life experiences then come back and give a better rant.

Bullshit.

[Solstis]

Let me put this another way. Your 17, you think your opinion is important, in fact you think your important. Now heres the hard pill to swollow. Your not.

Basically your entrie policical knowlegde comes from either your small group of adolencent friends or your parents and unless you happen to have an IQ of 250 and have read into the historys of other countries politics, you really shouldnt be debating about these kind of things. Your blind loyality to your country comes from years of being made to quote the national anthem, having a totally biased news network and an american flag on the front of your house.

Your happy little wrapped up world doesnt let you see the child labour used by nike in the far east, the schools bombed in iraq and the exploted labour factorys in Mexico. Go out and get some real life experiences then come back and give a better rant.



Bullshit.




I second the motion and would like to add a "crock of shit."

I'm sure that quite a few 17 year olds, me being one, know about all that crap. And quite frankly, unless you've gone to Iraq and been blown up or worked in a Mexican factory, you shouldn't be talking shit like that.

I've heard about all that Iran-Contra stuff, the "Invasion of Granda" the "Revolution" in Guatamala.

Yeah, so what if the government's corrupt?

Give me, us, that is, a break.

[edit 1]:
Gah, I messed up the quotes.
[edit 2]
GARGHHH!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-05-02 08:14 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-05-02 08:14 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-05-02 08:15 ]</font>

[Armok]

I apologie for over attacking American youth and withdraw my statement. It stereotype a group of people and was wrong in doing so.

[Cowboy]

On 2004-05-02 05:29, Armok wrote:
Let me put this another way. Your 17, you think your opinion is important, in fact you think your important. Now heres the hard pill to swollow. Your not.

Basically your entrie policical knowlegde comes from either your small group of adolencent friends or your parents and unless you happen to have an IQ of 250 and have read into the historys of other countries politics, you really shouldnt be debating about these kind of things. Your blind loyality to your country comes from years of being made to quote the national anthem, having a totally biased news network and an american flag on the front of your house.

Your happy little wrapped up world doesnt let you see the child labour used by nike in the far east, the schools bombed in iraq and the exploted labour factorys in Mexico. Go out and get some real life experiences then come back and give a better rant.




And you did the exact same thing the two immigrants in my class did. You assumed quite a bit there, the same thing youre accusing me of, basing my opinion with a lack of knoledge on the subject.

did I once deny anything the US does? No. Did I say I agree with what the US does? No. All I said is I disagree when someone inuslts me without the knoledge to back up their opinion, something you just did.

This is actually incredibly funny to me. You just accused me of having an uniformed opinioon, which in itself is hypocritical. Thank you, you made me laugh.

[Ness]

On 2004-05-02 12:02, Armok wrote:
I apologie for over attacking American youth and withdraw my statement. It stereotype a group of people and was wrong in doing so.



Apology accepted.

[Armok]

And you did the exact same thing the two immigrants in my class did. You assumed quite a bit there, the same thing youre accusing me of, basing my opinion with a lack of knoledge on the subject.

did I once deny anything the US does? No. Did I say I agree with what the US does? No. All I said is I disagree when someone inuslts me without the knoledge to back up their opinion, something you just did.

This is actually incredibly funny to me. You just accused me of having an uniformed opinioon, which in itself is hypocritical. Thank you, you made me laugh.



I know thats why I withdrew it, cos you didnt attually say anything that warrented my outburst.

It was just a burst of tired morningness insanity which I have since read and gone 'OMG what did I post that for'.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Armok on 2004-05-02 12:22 ]</font>

[Solstis]

On 2004-05-02 12:20, Armok wrote:


And you did the exact same thing the two immigrants in my class did. You assumed quite a bit there, the same thing youre accusing me of, basing my opinion with a lack of knoledge on the subject.

did I once deny anything the US does? No. Did I say I agree with what the US does? No. All I said is I disagree when someone inuslts me without the knoledge to back up their opinion, something you just did.

This is actually incredibly funny to me. You just accused me of having an uniformed opinioon, which in itself is hypocritical. Thank you, you made me laugh.



I know thats why I withdrew it, cos you didnt attually say anything that warrented my outburst.

It was just a burst of tired morningness insanity which I have since read and gone 'OMG what did I post that for'.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Armok on 2004-05-02 12:22 ]</font>


Lol, that was my reaction to my own post.

We American youth are now placated. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Subliminalgroove]

I'm gonna get ripped to shreds here, but its how I feel so here we go . . .

Yes, we (as young americans) have no control over what happened before we were born or aware of what was going on. And being blamed for that is stupid. But it is something we do to other contries as well. Its called stereotyping. Yes it happens to us to, not just the Phillipino down the block.

As far as you just being 17 and unable to vote, that doesn't mean you can't fight what you feel is wrong. As american's we are afforded the right of Lawful Assembly (Protest, babah!) and Free Speech. Using these tools you can do all you can to change the things you feel are wrong. Write your senator and representative. Let them know what you think is wrong. They realize that you will be of voting age soon enough, and they will want that vote. Organize protests, make some noise, send letters to newspapers, and educate others. Just because you are young does not mean you are powerless!

Here comes the part I am going to get flamed for... The thing that most people from foreign countries hate about us is our way of life. We are the world's consumers. Raw materials get shipped to other countries and we purchase refined goods on the cheap from places like China. We have more wealth per capita than any other country. The majority of us want our Big Ass Magnum V10 Dodge trucks or our 28 foot long SUVs, both eating up more refined oil (a resouce that will be GONE VERY soon) than should be legal anywhere. We abuse other countries for our finincial gain. Basically, our way of life makes us look like assholes. To put it another way, we are that guy in high school that has EVERYTHING, gets A's and doesn't do a damn thing, has the hottest girl in school, and generally treats the rest of the school like they are beneath his feet, yet they pretend to be his friend just get his table scraps. Nobody likes this guy, and nobody likes us. It isn't you specifically, it is the way we live, the way we have lived, and the way we seem to be continuing to live.
The problem with this is it is SOOOOOOO hard to break out of this way of life. Believe me, I try all the time. It is nigh impossible to not live your life in a way that is at least partially American. A good way to start is to think about WHERE you spend your american dollars. Where you spend your money is a message to the world of how we live our lives. If you spend your money on frivolous items or items that are made by exploiting children in foriegn countries, you are telling the world that you don't care what happens to the rest of the world, you just want your stuff. That is detrimental to our image, or rather, it sustains our image. Don't buy things from places like Pier One Imports. Those places are all about exploitation. Don't shop at places like Wal-Mart, which use TONS of nefarious means to keep costs low. As you can see, doing this is hard. Not having that car is hard, not keeping up with the SOTA on your computer hardware is hard (my computer is an old overclocked Duron 650!), buying natural and american made products (from companies you know their practices) is expensive. As you can see, it is an incredible drain on the pocket book. And it is almost impossible to do. I do my best, but I can't always succed.

But that just addresses the finnancial end, and not even all of it. There are so many other things that we need to do to change the world's minds about america. And we have a LONG road ahead of us. Most people just don't care enough to walk it.

[Cowboy]

Yes, i can, and do do that when i feel strongly enough about something. I'm not saying theres nothing I can do to change the way things AWILL BE. Im saying i get outdone with people when they blame me for the the way things ARE and HAVE BEEN. When an immigrant says he hates the US and blames myself and other classmates for the war in Iraq, i get outdone.


The most powerful thing an American can do to change the way thigns are is vote, which I WILL DO once i turn 18. Until then, I'll just strongly voice my opinion to the people that matter.

And Subliminal, I agree, but one thing. I drive a big V8 ford, but its cuz i need one for my lifestyle, not because i wanted it http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And to be fair, America has stereotypes, and so do other countries. Everyone needs to just get an open mind, and then we can try to change things.

[DurakkenX]

*cough* actually according to the recently past laws and bills pretty much all our "freedoms" have become null and void and not to mention that in truth the way the constitution is writeen "freedom" is only a bullshyt way of controllling the mass populous

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-05-02 21:29, DurakkenX wrote:
*cough* actually according to the recently past laws and bills pretty much all our "freedoms" have become null and void and not to mention that in truth the way the constitution is writeen "freedom" is only a bullshyt way of controllling the mass populous



Yes, the patriot act is a crock of shit. We know this. The homeland security act is a bid for mor government power... this much is obvious.

However, they have not taken away the right to protest and the right to free speech. Take for example The March For Women's Lives that happened recently. 1.15 million participants exercising their right to lawful assembly and freedom of speech.

These rights are under attack, but we have not lost them. The minute we loose them, this country looses all semblance of democracy.

[DarthFomar]

Well...all I have to say is the WARS won't matter when a Megaton Asteroid redecorates our planet. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

And as for Immigrants...about 60% or so, hate or dislike the United States. If we were any OTHER country...we would take them out back and blow their fucking brains out, for all the bitching and moaning that they have commited. So they should be grateful that they even have the right to even speak their mind *without being shot on sight for disloyalty*, as some countrys would.

They can say that they don't agree with the President and the wars, etc; but the moment they say "we hate this country" is when they need to be strapped to a boat and sent back over to where ever the fuck they came from. B'cuz if you hate the U.S. then you don't belong here.

Immigrants even get more privelages than regular U.S. citizens. They get the best scholarships, etc. So really they should love it here. So y do they complain...because they are naturally ungrateful!!!

I say...don't smack the hand that feeds you. Otherwise, it will bitch-slap you back.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-02 22:50 ]</font>

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-05-02 22:38, DarthFomar wrote:
Well...all I have to say is the WARS won't matter when a Megaton Asteroid redecorates our planet. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

And as for Immigrants...about 60% or so, hate or dislike the United States. If we were any OTHER country...we would take them out back and blow their fucking brains out, for all the bitching and moaning that they have commited. So they should be grateful that they even have the right to even speak their mind *without being shot on sight for disloyalty*, as some countrys would.

They can say that they don't agree with the President and the wars, etc; but the moment they say "we hate this country" is when they need to be strapped to a boat and sent back over to where ever the fuck they came from. B'cuz if you hate the U.S. then you don't belong here.

Immigrants even get more privelages than regular U.S. citizens. They get the best scholarships, etc. So really they should love it here. So y do they complain...because they are naturally ungrateful!!!

I say...don't smack the hand that feeds you. Otherwise, it will bitch-slap you back.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-02 22:50 ]</font>


<sigh> This is exactly the kind of attitude that gives Americans a bad name. THey have every right to hate this country. Just as much right as you or I have to hate this country. They can rail about what we are doing wrong, they can vehemently oppose anything we do. The first amendment grants any citizen, Immigrant or native-born, that right. To not recognize it and fight for it sounds the death knell of democracy.

When they walk off ellis island they aren't given invitations to Ivy league schools and full ride scholorships... They EARN those. Just the same as we do. They aren't given 6 figure salaries or cushy jobs. Fact is most "cushy" jobs find old white men in their office chairs. They don't gain any benefit that any of us don't have. Yes, affirmative action might work in their favor, but its just as likely to not work in their favor as it is you or I. In fact, since 9/11 the only thing they are likely to get is on a list of Probable Suspects. Being an immigrant in america is NOT easy. Where you get this idea that it is like some wonerful vacation for them is beyond me. Just take a walk down a part of a city, any city, that is predomenantly populated by immigrants. You will find that life is not easy for them.

The only thing they are given is what you and I have. The rights afforded to us by the constitution. What happens from that point is entirly up to them.

[DarthFomar]

No no no...I'm talking about Immigrants that hate this country as a whole. That just plain flat out hate it...but they live here. That is what my rant is *targeted* to. If you cannot stand anything about the United States...then you just don't belong here and you should consider re-immigrating to a *NICER* place.

I'm not talkin about ppl that say *Oh I hate Bush and crap*. Just the ones that say "I hate the United States". Just so there's no confusion...http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And you are mistaken...there are a lot of middle class *very middle class* immigrants, that have had their fair share of benefits. I have seen all TOO many. So do not presume to tell me I'm wrong...because I know from personal experience. And I'm sure there are plenty more in the other 49 states, that have also reaped their benefits as well.

And no...the ppl that give Americans bad names are the ppl that DO NOT stand up for their country GD. The ppl that protested the wars *vietnam and iragi* are not true Patriots. Our damn ancestors didn't die so that immigrants could come over here and say that they hate America...when they can have a better future here. If you feel any different then you have a problem. It just means that you need to discover yourself as a patriot...because if you are a patriot, then it should sicken you when you hear an immigrant say something like "I hate...this country". http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_evil.gif

Those are my two damns cents. And I have no more anger to flush. :S



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-03 00:22 ]</font>

[Ness]

On 2004-05-02 22:21, Subliminalgroove wrote:

Yes, the patriot act is a crock of shit. We know this. The homeland security act is a bid for mor government power... this much is obvious.

However, they have not taken away the right to protest and the right to free speech. Take for example The March For Women's Lives that happened recently. 1.15 million participants exercising their right to lawful assembly and freedom of speech.

These rights are under attack, but we have not lost them. The minute we loose them, this country looses all semblance of democracy.



They have take away our freedom of speech before. During WWI the passed the Espionage and Sedition Acts and during the 1700's they passed the Alien and Sedition Acts, both had the sole purpose of snuffing out anti-government sentiment. What's to stop them from doing it again?



And as for Immigrants...about 60% or so, hate or dislike the United States.

I love make up statistics.

[Armok]

On 2004-05-03 04:08, Ness wrote:


And as for Immigrants...about 60% or so, hate or dislike the United States.

I love make up statistics.



Its well known that 105% of statistic quoted online are made up to prove some bullshit point.

[Ness]

On 2004-05-03 04:26, Armok wrote:


On 2004-05-03 04:08, Ness wrote:


And as for Immigrants...about 60% or so, hate or dislike the United States.

I love make up statistics.



Its well known that 105% of statistic quoted online are made up to prove some bullshit point.



I heard that 42% of all statistics are made up, but that was probably made up too.

[DarthFomar]

Ok you ppl need to get out more and understand just how many immigrants live in the U.S.

36% of the immigranst in my school hated this country...now there are 49 more states out there...I'm sure that that percentage is drastically increased after you combine the 50 states. And someone did a survey in TX and it was about 57% *immigrants who don't like america*. So tell me I'm wrong and you are just an untrusting fool. B'cuz I do not bullshit, what would be the point???

[Ness]

On 2004-05-03 12:21, DarthFomar wrote:
Ok you ppl need to get out more and understand just how many immigrants live in the U.S.

36% of the immigranst in my school hated this country...now there are 49 more states out there...I'm sure that that percentage is drastically increased after you combine the 50 states.


Okay, so you defend your original made up statistic with more made up statistics. Also I'm not sure how factoring all 50 states makes 36%, a made up statistic about your highschool, turn into 60% for the entire nation (or whatever number is was that you made up).




And someone did a survey in TX and it was about 57% *immigrants who don't like america*. So tell me I'm wrong and you are just an untrusting fool. B'cuz I do not bullshit, what would be the point???



You cannot trust surveys because they are volunteers surveys. Volunteer surveys are biased because

1. They tend to only cater to a certain audience that generally shares the same set of beliefs.

2. The only people that participate in volunteer surveys like the one you mentioned are those that are passionate about whatever the survey was about.

Sure 57% of the immigrants who participated in that survey may hate America, but that doesn't mean anything.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-03 13:38, Ness wrote:


On 2004-05-03 12:21, DarthFomar wrote:
Ok you ppl need to get out more and understand just how many immigrants live in the U.S.

36% of the immigranst in my school hated this country...now there are 49 more states out there...I'm sure that that percentage is drastically increased after you combine the 50 states.


Okay, so you defend your original made up statistic with more made up statistics. Also I'm not sure how factoring all 50 states makes 36%, a made up statistic about your highschool, turn into 60% for the entire nation (or whatever number is was that you made up).




And someone did a survey in TX and it was about 57% *immigrants who don't like america*. So tell me I'm wrong and you are just an untrusting fool. B'cuz I do not bullshit, what would be the point???



You cannot trust surveys because they are volunteers surveys. Volunteer surveys are biased because

1. They tend to only cater to a certain audience that generally shares the same set of beliefs.

2. The only people that participate in volunteer surveys like the one you mentioned are those that are passionate about whatever the survey was about.

Sure 57% of the immigrants who participated in that survey may hate America, but that doesn't mean anything.




Look...I said 36% of my highschool Immigrants *immigranst only* said that they didn't like it in america...I *DID NOT* factor in every state for that percentage *it was just for my highschool*. And the 60% percentage I refered to in my original post was the rounded up percent of *The survey from TX*. I have lived there twice...once in 1992 *in Houston, TX* and then again in 1998 *in Bedford, TX*...so I think I would know wtf I'm talking about {OKAY}. And I happen to know a few ppl that took the survey b'cuz some of them were my friends in school. So seeing as the state of Texas is one of the most largly populated by immigrants, I used that percentage *but it was rounded*.

And another thing...I agree with you about the specified audience for surveys, but the results are the results and you cannot change that.

[Ness]

On 2004-05-03 16:02, DarthFomar wrote:

Look...I said 36% of my highschool Immigrants *immigranst only* said that they didn't like it in america...I *DID NOT* factor in every state for that percentage *it was just for my highschool*. And the 60% percentage I refered to in my original post was the rounded up percent of *The survey from TX*. I have lived there twice...once in 1992 *in Houston, TX* and then again in 1998 *in Bedford, TX*...so I think I would know wtf I'm talking about {OKAY}.


I really didn't want it to get to this, because our origins don't really don't affect the validity of our arguments (in this case), but I've lived in Texas all my life (all 16 years of it). So following your logic, I know more aobut what I'm tlaking aobut than you do.



And I happen to know a few ppl that took the survey b'cuz some of them were my friends in school. So seeing as the state of Texas is one of the most largly populated by immigrants, I used that percentage *but it was rounded*.


That still doesn't change the objectivity (or lack thereof) of the survey.



And another thing...I agree with you about the specified audience for surveys, but the results are the results and you cannot change that.



Yes results are results, but using the results of a biased poll kind of ruins the validity of your argument.

[Subliminalgroove]

Ooooookay.... here we go...



On 2004-05-02 23:29, DarthFomar wrote:

And you are mistaken...there are a lot of middle class *very middle class* immigrants, that have had their fair share of benefits. I have seen all TOO many. So do not presume to tell me I'm wrong...because I know from personal experience. And I'm sure there are plenty more in the other 49 states, that have also reaped their benefits as well.

No my friend, you are mistaken, quite mistaken. I'm going to toss some statistitics at you. So, since we are on the topic of bogus stats, let me tell you where I got them. http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-206.pdf None other than the United States Census Bureau and Dept. of Commerce. I figured this these would be good sources since you are so patriotic...
Well, according to the 2000 census: "In 1999, the poverty rate, which was 11.8 percent for the total population, was 16.8 percent for the foreign-born population and 11.2 percent for the native population." Hrm... that looks like a 5.6% difference to me. You'll find that on page 46 in the PDF I linked to, under "Poverty Status", if you care to look. Now, considering that this was done for the 2000 census and we are in a worse economic standing now than we were then... hazard a guess at what those numbers would be now...
Wait! There's more! "Income is lower among
foreign-born households than among native households." (pg. 44) And more: "Median earnings for foreign-born male and female workers were $27,239 and $22,139, respectively, compared with $37,528 and $26,698 respectively, for native male and female workers." With middle class commonly considered $30,000 to $65,000, that puts the majority of foreign born citizens below that tax brcket, now doesn't it? And as both Kerry and Bush seem to agree that this tax bracket is not worthy of any taxcuts, that leaves them even more screwed, doesn't it? I'll let you read the rest of that PDF and come up with your own decisions.



And no...the ppl that give Americans bad names are the ppl that DO NOT stand up for their country GD. The ppl that protested the wars *vietnam and iragi* are not true Patriots. Our damn ancestors didn't die so that immigrants could come over here and say that they hate America...when they can have a better future here. If you feel any different then you have a problem. It just means that you need to discover yourself as a patriot...because if you are a patriot, then it should sicken you when you hear an immigrant say something like "I hate...this country". http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_evil.gif


Man, "My country, Right or Wrong" is NOT patriotism.

Its idiocy.

If your country is doing something you feel is wrong or detrimental to our future, it is your patriotic duty to stand up and fight it. If you don't, you don't have your county's best intrests at heart. I protested the Iraq war, both of them, vehemently. And I would have protested vietnam as well. Both of these wars were mistakes for us. Vietnam was a tactical blunder, as was this Iraq debacle. As a result of this war, our country is weak economicaly (though we MAY be on an upswing now) and our standing with foreign countries has been further tarnished.

Well, obviously I am a "god damn liberal dove", but: Am I a patriot?

Hell Yes I am! Just because I don't hook flags onto my car in a disrespectful manner (Or stick them on my bumper where they can get muddy and greasy... have some respect you drones), or sneer at every foreign citizen ("Oh my god!!! He might have a bomb!!!), or do I follow blindly what my government says. Infact, BECAUSE of these reasons, and others, I am a patriot. And before you infer that I wouldn't: I would more than willing die for my country, so don't assume I wouldn't. I just won't die for the pockets of some rich white texan.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-03 17:25, Ness wrote:
I really didn't want it to get to this, because our origins don't really don't affect the validity of our arguments (in this case), but I've lived in Texas all my life (all 16 years of it). So following your logic, I know more aobut what I'm tlaking aobut than you do.


Yeah...I'm sure you do???
Sorry to say, but I was born in Galveston, TX in 1984...and I lived there til I was 3 yrs old. We moved, but we still visited my cousins and relatives from TX just about every year...until my moms uncle died. Since then *which was about 5 years ago* we haven't visited as much. So don't act like your better b'cuz you've *lived there your whole life*.

But I still occassionaly keep up on my states news and so forth. And I also plan on moving back to Dallas, Fort Worth for my future career. And isn't it ironic that you mention that you happen to live in Tx *especially your whole life*. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

And btw I really don't care for P. Bush, but I'd rather have him as my president than a cheating liar...as was our former President.

And subliminal...I know many foreigners that are just as wealthy as the average person...some of my friends parents *foreigners* for example have like 5 kids, and they can still afford to buy big screen tvs, dvd players, game systems, and cars *new ones*. So if they do use their benefits they can become pretty wealthy...but....listen closely.....it......all.....depends......on......t he.
.....cost.......of.......living.......in your area. So yeah there are a lot of poor immigrants but there are just as much *but maybe a little less* that are wealthy.

*sigh* All I'm saying is that it pisses me off when ppl say they hate this country...*not the president, not the wars, not the ppl here...just the whole country in general, the very idea of America*



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-03 20:08 ]</font>

[Subliminalgroove]

First of all: Darth, sorry if I came across a little testy. I have had a rough day, but that is no excuse for my condescending manner. I apologize.

As far as the people you know who are foriegners, how long have they been in this country? Are they native born (In other words, not first generation immigrants)? And which type of area do you live in? The first two factors make a HUGE difference in how much a person of ethnic origin can expect to make in this country. The third question I ask because that is going to determine the type of people you run into. If you come from a reasonably well off family, the majority of the people you will interact with will likely be well off also. This doesn't mean you are a discriminating jerk, it just means that we tend to associate with the people around us, and in very few places do you find a family whose gross yearly income breaks $200K next door to a family on wealfare.

Maybe if we did live more intermixed, there would be more of an outcry to change our society. But that is not the way we do things here.

The acctuall percentages of immigrant families whose gross yearly income is over 50k IS roughly equal to that of those who make below 25k. I think its about 32% and 36% respectively. I'd have to check again to be sure. But does this mean that we stop trying to help them? There are many women who are now making as much as their male counterparts, but, does that mean we stop fighting for the rest of us? NO.

The "benefits" of which you speak are afforded to any person of ethnic background. Not just immigrants. The truth is that immigrants DO tend to get the short end of the stick here. SOME of this is due to xenophobic attitudes that have become popular since 9/11. But these attitudes have been present before then as well, just not as apparent.

Thanks for reading my posts and trying to keep this civil, Darth. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-05-03 20:33 ]</font>

[Cowboy]

Oh...my...fucking...God... this is so friggin beautiful! This thread, its filled with opinions based on facts, something i rarely see! I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-05-03 20:38, Cowboy wrote:
Oh...my...fucking...God... this is so friggin beautiful! This thread, its filled with opinions based on facts, something i rarely see! I WANT TO THANK ALL OF YOU! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Why thank you... That would be the librarian in me...

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-03 20:31, Subliminalgroove wrote:
First of all: Darth, sorry if I came across a little testy. I have had a rough day, but that is no excuse for my condescending manner. I apologize.



And I'm sorry for all the bitching I've done...http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

But I got into an argument with this kid in Highschool a long time ago *he was part middle eastern, but I don't know what else he was*...anyway, he called me an "Arrogant American Pig"...he said that because I told him to shut up *as I seem to remember he was cursing our country and also y his parents even brought him here*.

He kept on for weeks, and there was nothing I could do about it. I wanted to literally beat him outta the classroom. But I don't like resorting to violence. I guess he just finally shut up b'cuz the year went by and I had no problems. And this topic has flared that f-ing emotion I felt from that asswhole. I just didn't take it too well. This is a good country, and I don't like it when ppl try to shame it's name. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_no.gif

Well...I knew a about 6 ppl *personally* in highschool that where either foreigners or their parents where foreigners. And they seemed to be living pretty good I guess, with all the cars, tv, and other junk they get. I live in TN right now...and believe me when I say more and more foreigners *and minoritys* are continuing to move here for some reason.

And guess what...here's a funny fact for you; I am really wanting a job in the Comic book industry *the artistic portion* and the start up salary for a comic artist is around 40k-50k then it gets higher over several years;...you had mentioned that foreigners make around 50k a year...that is not a half bad salavry if you think about it...is it? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

lol...cowboy...we are glad to serve. As long as I get to piss and moan for something I believe in. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-03 21:09 ]</font>

[Cowboy]

I'm just glad to see peeps pissing and moaning for reasons other than being mad at what they see on TV http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cowboy on 2004-05-03 21:15 ]</font>

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-05-03 21:07, DarthFomar wrote:
you had mentioned that foreigners make around 50k a year...

I said SOME do... the vas majority do not. I don't really want to go back to that census pdf and find the exact percentage. But as I said it was about 36% who make 50k or above. That leaves 64% who do not.
I am unsure what the percentage is of caucasian families with gross yearly incomes above 50k, but I would hazard a guess and say its more...

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-03 21:16, Subliminalgroove wrote:


On 2004-05-03 21:07, DarthFomar wrote:
you had mentioned that foreigners make around 50k a year...

I said SOME do... the vas majority do not. I don't really want to go back to that census pdf and find the exact percentage. But as I said it was about 36% who make 50k or above. That leaves 64% who do not.
I am unsure what the percentage is of caucasian families with gross yearly incomes above 50k, but I would hazard a guess and say its more...



Oh...well eiter way they make good on their money right?...at least a small percent of their population. So the motto of America can still ring true? Anyway I am officially pulling my ass outta this discussion. Someone else can bitch and moan for me! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Onward to another topic....yeeehawwwww!!!

Lol cowboy...you are right.....it is better to argue about things other than TV... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Let me address my deepest apologies if I have riled anyone in this thread...feel free to piss on my head now.... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Ness]

On 2004-05-03 20:01, DarthFomar wrote:
But I still occassionaly keep up on my states news and so forth. And I also plan on moving back to Dallas, Fort Worth for my future career. And isn't it ironic that you mention that you happen to live in Tx *especially your whole life*. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


It's funny you should say that because I live in the Dallas Ft. Worth area.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-04 04:03, Ness wrote:


On 2004-05-03 20:01, DarthFomar wrote:
But I still occassionaly keep up on my states news and so forth. And I also plan on moving back to Dallas, Fort Worth for my future career. And isn't it ironic that you mention that you happen to live in Tx *especially your whole life*. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif


It's funny you should say that because I live in the Dallas Ft. Worth area.






Well...lol how do you like it there. I loved Forth Worth. Except the junior High I went too. I can't quite remember the name of it...but when my mom gets home I could ask. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I had to ride my f-ing bike to school and the neighborhood I lived in had a big hill that I had to go up *and this particular hill was a down slide...which starts right after you enter the neighborhood*. The biggest detail I can remember was the air tram that traveled along buildings *or whatever the f that was* and also....there was a lot of hotels next to the interstate...?

I can't wait to move back. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

[Ness]

On 2004-05-04 15:32, DarthFomar wrote:
Well...lol how do you like it there. I loved Forth Worth. Except the junior High I went too. I can't quite remember the name of it...but when my mom gets home I could ask. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif I had to ride my f-ing bike to school and the neighborhood I lived in had a big hill that I had to go up *and this particular hill was a down slide...which starts right after you enter the neighborhood*. The biggest detail I can remember was the air tram that traveled along buildings *or whatever the f that was* and also....there was a lot of hotels next to the interstate...?

I can't wait to move back. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif



It's alright I guess. I don't like in the "the big city" so to say, but I live in one of the surburbs around it.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-05-04 16:40, Ness wrote:

It's alright I guess. I don't like in the "the big city" so to say, but I live in one of the surburbs around it.



Same here...I lived half a mile from my school. I can't remember if my junior highschool was in the city or not. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-05-04 16:44 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

freedom = the abillity to make a descision without external influence.

american freedom = the ability to make a descision without external influence that does not impede on another person's ability to do so.

Ok so if i sit on this chair...you can't...therefor i'm impeding you ability to have a say in whether or not you're going to sit in this chair at the present time.

in other words existing is techinally against american law and by this fact alone the goverment can do whatever it wants.

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-05-05 01:15, DurakkenX wrote:
freedom = the abillity to make a descision without external influence.

american freedom = the ability to make a descision without external influence that does not impede on another person's ability to do so.

Ok so if i sit on this chair...you can't...therefor i'm impeding you ability to have a say in whether or not you're going to sit in this chair at the present time.

in other words existing is techinally against american law and by this fact alone the goverment can do whatever it wants.





Well, if we are going to get into weird-ass philosophy, this is all the dream of some butterfly... so who cares anyway?

[Ness]

On 2004-05-05 06:57, Subliminalgroove wrote:


On 2004-05-05 01:15, DurakkenX wrote:
freedom = the abillity to make a descision without external influence.

american freedom = the ability to make a descision without external influence that does not impede on another person's ability to do so.

Ok so if i sit on this chair...you can't...therefor i'm impeding you ability to have a say in whether or not you're going to sit in this chair at the present time.

in other words existing is techinally against american law and by this fact alone the goverment can do whatever it wants.





Well, if we are going to get into weird-ass philosophy, this is all the dream of some butterfly... so who cares anyway?



You;'re both wrong. We are all minds trapped in a virtual wrold while machinces utilize our body heat.

[DurakkenX]

it's not "wierd-ass philosophy", it's logic.

[Armok]

On 2004-05-05 13:22, Ness wrote:

You;'re both wrong. We are all minds trapped in a virtual wrold while machinces utilize our body heat.



Thats a lie they real reason is we're just a big soap opera planet devised to entertain the rest of the human being of the universe who don't live here. How would G W B ever get into power if that werent the case.