poll: what would you would consider cheating?

[Coldspiders]

As far as pso goes I consider hacking, multiple equip, etc to be cheating. duping is okay in my book as long as it is strickly offline only! (such as scape dolls, meseta, etc.) tell me what you guys think about this, i wanna know.

[Coldspiders]

well, weve got two that say all kinds of exploits are wrong. and one saying some are okay. feel free to post your thoughts on the subject.

[RFB]

I have voted that all exploits are illegal, why?

1)Piping for rare enemies: it is accepted by ST, so it is not an exploit. And who has not used it at least once?
2)Using the reverser trick to heal other's TP. Patched.
3)Walk Trough Doors/Fences: Patched since there is no longer backstep.
4)Twinking: if anyone thinks that is cheating/exploiting, that person really needs a mental check.

Apart from that, every other explots are cheats. And I do not like cheats.

[Siris]

Wtf? This is stupid, there is a difference between an exploit and a cheater. You'll need to be more specific here if you expect an accurate poll.

[Coldspiders]

okay, under all exploits is bad includes the following, duping, piping, reverser trick, door trick etc,
under the some is good are the following, offline(insert any of the above)
and under all is good, online duping, tweaking/twinking, door tricks, reverser, etc.
those are the more defined points.

[Siris]

On 2004-06-21 18:52, Coldspiders wrote:
okay, under all exploits is bad includes the following, duping, piping, reverser trick, door trick etc,
under the some is good are the following, offline(insert any of the above)
and under all is good, online duping, tweaking/twinking, door tricks, reverser, etc.
those are the more defined points.



You can't seriously put duping and piping in the same area here. That is my point.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

Personally I figure cheating shouldn't be somthing of major importance. It's just a game it shouldn't make such an impact on someone's life to cause debates and an ongoing forum about it. People can do whatever with their games, it's not like I can stop them.

[Coldspiders]

well, piping would be an exploit, in a way, you are bettering your odds to find a rare monster faster than you normally would. just as tweaking i.e. duping power mats to get you to ultimate faster than you normally would. if you are catching my drift.

[AYY-BEE-CEE]

On 2004-06-21 19:58, ForceOfBrokenGlass wrote:
Personally I figure cheating shouldn't be somthing of major importance. It's just a game it shouldn't make such an impact on someone's life to cause debates and an ongoing forum about it. People can do whatever with their games, it's not like I can stop them.



If you don't want to debate about this game then why are you here? Some cheating (like dupes) make quite a big impact on the fun I get from playing this game, the game = we and we all need entertainment in our lives, don't we? So it does have such an impact on my life, so there you go http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif .

Back on-topic, I also agree that minor exploits like piping for rares and duping shouldn't be classed together, piping just gets yourself a decent item quicker while duping has the capacity to affect the whole online community, especially when someone hands out extremely-powerful weapons which the receivers then go and use in another game, so don't tell me the two Ronnies are the same size, ok? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[digigram]

coldspider....

Duping a power material and piping to see a rare enemy are 2 TOTALLY different things....

Let us start with the definition of 'exploit' as it would apply to PSO. Exploited functions of PSO are born when a player finds flaws in the way the game was made, or a section/instance of the game in which wasn't properly tested. Such as, stacking x99/x244 TRIMATES and other "x00" based items. How to do this isn't common knowledge, it's a flaw in the game. Simply put, you should only be allowed to carry 10 of anything, no matter how F'in lazy one is to not goto the shops every 20-30 minutes. So figuring out the steps (WITHOUT AR or modchip) to stack Items, within the game, is {{{{taking advantage of a weakness in the games programming.}}}}

keywords being Advantage, weakness, programming.

Now piping. You're basically only wasting your own time. Sure you're taking advantage of the fact that enemies have to refresh when you enter and exit a room due to piping/dieing.. but guess what. It was a part of the game to begin with.. when in an offline enviroment... ST specifically made offline games and your xbox sitting in front of you act as it's on enemy data server, so what happens when YOU and not 3 others are playing on YOU're xbox?? ...the enemies refresh, because not retaining the enemies information saves memory from programming efficiently.

Taking advantage of the normal aspects of the game is saying that by leveling up in 'Towards the Future
'(xbox) nonstop, you're exploiting boss Experience..

I'm legit, I'm also getting really sick of seeing people say, essentially, "step on a crack, break your mothers back"...

it's getting really old kids... not to mention unbecoming.

[digigram]

to add to the definitions of things.regardless of what you PSO folk call it..

Exploit = bug/flaw in a game allowing one to do something they shouldn't. ie stacking 99 trifluids, piping through doors.

Twinking (what you guys for some reason call tweaking) = Raising a perfectly normal character to the highest or high levels, finding tons of shit (items), then creating a lower level character with said items that High level character either didn't need or couldn't use.. ie. lvl-200 RAcast giving LV1-10 new character 40 Power mats, tons of 4 slot armor, rare weapons etc etc.. mind you..that one legitimately found. btw, twinking or twink means comes from twinkies. 2 of the same.

For some reason I have had a lot of problems with this next one.

Ninja = Someone who completely disregards the idea and fact that they are playing with OTHER PEOPLE, proceeding to go around, snatch every rare and every box and item that drops while the others do all the work... such as - "I'm standing over 4 xbox boxes in spaceship, I take my shot, smash all of them, before I get a chance to move from the shot delay, said dumbass RAmarl kid runs up right as I see there are 2 power mats that i need, they proceed to grab them from under me and use them both before I get a chance to even say, 'hey wai.......' fuckers.


NOW. proper terms for what I believe should be considered cheating.

DUPING = Using external devices (be it CPU or AR) to duplicate either other duped weapons or legitimately found weapons/armor/shield ect. this includes MAGS, ITEMS, rares.. anything.

HACKING = although the word is laughably used in PSO, most of those ignorant enough to use this term for kids using scripts and/or directions of someone else that should even possibly be called a hacker.. .lol. This term in PSO is given to those who either choose to USE modified mags and/or those who modify them. This includes using/modding weapons to deal out 300% of the base damage that weapon gives, including HIT%

BOXING = laughable yet again. lazy sods. you figure that out. I think this is probably the most lazy and pathetic thing I have seen in the game.
Look, i'm lvl 200.. bow down to me.. which, in many cases, is the mentality I see of those who choose to BOX it up on apatite.

127%
300%
Lvl 1308 mags.
Stacking mates and fluids.

That is all cheating..

Piping mil lily's in spare time. give me a break.
Twinking a new character... hell, you found the weapons, everyone else can goto hell.

exploits my ass.

[Coldspiders]

some very good points are being made by the above poster.
although, in my opinion, something like piping is taking advantage of the enemy log just as duping is taking advantage of poor programming. my point is, they are both exploits of bugs in a way.

[Siris]

@@ No they are not. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Piping and duping are way different things.

[Coldspiders]

in either one are you taking advantage of something?

[digigram]

that doesn't make a difference... are you taking advantage of TTF to get experience faster by killing bosses... yes... that doesn't mean it is an exploit..

The difference is that between using a code from a third party device to duplicate items others have found and taking advantage of something that is already in the game, one is cheating, the other is not.

It's that simple. are you going to say that using the trade function of the game is an exploit because someone can give you items you don't have or haven't found yourself? Because that is essentially what you're trying to imply..

Duping is duping.. there is no "tweaking", there is only duping. Taking the time to pipe as opposed to leaving the room and coming back to re-spawn an enemy doesn't even compare in contrast. It can't even be argued.

Exploit = taking advantage of a flaw in the game. Enemy Data Refresh is not an exploit... it is the way the game was made.. it not only saves memory, it is just the way offline games of this type are made .

Is waiting outside a door to keep safe from enemies until they relocate to their spawning point so that you can shoot them and not get hurt when you return out of the room, cheating? ... no.


here is what SHOULD be considered cheating.

Stacking items. -- best subject for "exploits"
Duplicating items.
Modifying items. (ie: 127% / 300% weapons)
00casts using Techs.
Modifying MAGS (ie: 1308)

Stacking items or using techniques of cheating that do not require any 3rd party device (modchip, AR etc) would be the best candidate for an exploit.. because it provides the ability to get results that are not within the games rules.. such as having 99 trimates.

As where using a telepipe, to get enemies to refresh... is not exploiting any such Flaw. if this is an exploit...then every time you play the game, you are exploiting the fact that enemies spawn and you get to kill them.

See why we think the coupling of duping and piping doesn't even begin to make sense?

[Coldspiders]

what im trying to say is that you can use both to your advantage, if you wish.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

On 2004-06-22 23:50, digigram wrote:
Exploit = taking advantage of a flaw in the game. Enemy Data Refresh is not an exploit... it is the way the game was made.. it not only saves memory, it is just the way offline games of this type are made .

Well to be blunt.

From Dictonary.com
ex?ploit ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ksploit, k-sploit)
n.
An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.

tr.v. ex-ploit-ed, ex-ploit-ing, ex-ploits (k-sploit, ksploit)
To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor.
To advertise; promote.


So perhaps duping and piping would fall under the same context of the basic root of the word Exploit.

[Coldspiders]

that was my thought, i put them together cause you can use them both to your advantage.

[SerialGAMER]

I'm with digigram on this one. Duping items up to x99 is cheating. Piping is not. I voted all exploits are wrong, but according to ForceOfBrokenGlass and Coldspiders, I should have said all exploits are right!! When digigram and Coldspiders use the word exploit (in the PSO context of course) it takes on a connotative meaning. Dictionary.com only reports the denotative meaning of a word. What exploit means when referring to PSO is taking advantage of a serious BUG in the game.

[Coldspiders]

no, i mean that exploit in this case means taking advantage of anything; piping, duping, stacking, you name it.

[SerialGAMER]

No no, I said a BUG in the game. That means x99 items, duping, stacking, whatever you want to call that crap. That doesn't mean piping. Piping is not cheating because you aren't exploiting a bug in the game, piping is not a bug in the game. I mean, if you wanted to say that piping was a bug, then I shouldn't be able to pipe back up before a boss, or, more specifically, I shouldn't be able to go back to P2 if I'm in a room with a Lily, Hildebear, Rappy, or Slime because there is that chance that I've cheated if a rare enemy pops up. You simply cannot say that using a telepipe or ryuker is a bug.

[Coldspiders]

im saying the idea of using ryuker or a telepipe to go back in forth in hopes of finding a rare enemy is the exploit. not the method used.

[Kiri]

no exploits are good in my book. It ruins the whole reason you get the game...which is to have fun.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

On 2004-06-25 18:34, SerialGAMER wrote:
I'm with digigram on this one. Duping items up to x99 is cheating. Piping is not. I voted all exploits are wrong, but according to ForceOfBrokenGlass and Coldspiders, I should have said all exploits are right!! When digigram and Coldspiders use the word exploit (in the PSO context of course) it takes on a connotative meaning. Dictionary.com only reports the denotative meaning of a word. What exploit means when referring to PSO is taking advantage of a serious BUG in the game.

I think the denotative definition of the word was what Coldspiders was going for. I never said anything about right and wrong. Lets face it Piping is taking advantage of natural game code, just like trying to use King's weapons to steal EXP and try to level faster. Is that not exploiting somthing in the game in the most basic sense?

[Fyrin]

I would just play the game, I don't really go piping I usually do laps. Helps me get what I want.

[Coldspiders]

well, now do we have an idea as to whats ticking in my puny head? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif anyway, any other people have some view to share and debate?

[adamgnome104]

I personally think any glitch/trick/or hack that does not FSOD or harm them are good. Even the stupid spam exploit (Holding down on a keyboard key and idling http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif) harms people, and it REALLY FU#(%*ING SUCKS!!! >=O

[Coldspiders]

well, theres one opinion against all others, thanks for your vote! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Coldspiders]

all opinions on the subject are welcome. come post and discuss it with others.

[darkholemind]

cheaters are scum they take advantage of the stupidity of sonic team

besides the whole reason we play MMO's is to gain exp and level up get better items so that we can be proud of our acheivements. why bother playing when you can dupe the dark flow at a moments notice

[LoreSeeker]

Some exploits are ok, even for legit players. I don't care if a couple legit nazis bitch at me for backing up items, I'm going to do it anyway, because ST messed up the game and causes people to FSOD all the time. I only really care about cheating when it affects how much exp people are getting. For example, a level 1 FOnewm running around with level 30 Rafoie and 1500 MST is going to ruin the game for everyone else. If that FOnewm were to let everyone else get their hits in (or just tag everything with J/Z, even better) he wouldn't be much of a bother.

[Coldspiders]

well put. i have tweaked a character before but only to make things go faster. other than that i legitly found all the items i have.

[AlbinoRando]

The only thing i call cheating is when PSOers use hacked weapons or other items to HURT other PSO players.

[Gjl]

On 2004-07-01 23:55, AlbinoRando wrote:
The only thing i call cheating is when PSOers use hacked weapons or other items to HURT other PSO players.



Wow that has to be the most laughable definition of cheating I have ever come across...

Your definition is more appropriate for the term 'asshole' rather than 'cheater'.

Using invincibility codes, Lvl200 codes etc. don't harm anyone especially if you are playing alone but it's still cheating is it not?

Using hacked weapons etc. is obviously cheating regardless of the intentions. Using cheats for good intentions doesn't make it any less cheating - it's still cheating.

Plus i don't see how hacked items can hurt other players apart from 'stealing' exp. Usually the person hurt is the user since a generally easy but fun game becomes a dull and mindless affair.

[Anuminus]

Duping, I have two opinions: offline: OK
online: NO
The thing with this is, online I don't believe its good to dupe things and trade them. Offline, if you like or use duping occasionally for scapedolls/mats I have no problem with that.

Hacking, I have two opinions: offline: OK
Online: half
Once again, if you *enjoy* meaning have fun, playing with hacked weapons/mags/things you can do that, offline that is. Online, play only with others who are fine playing with un-legit people. Everyone, see this thread: http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=85367&forum=4&24

Its a great thread.

[Anuminus]

On 2004-07-01 16:02, LoreSeeker wrote:
Some exploits are ok, even for legit players. I don't care if a couple legit nazis bitch at me for backing up items, I'm going to do it anyway, because ST messed up the game and causes people to FSOD all the time. I only really care about cheating when it affects how much exp people are getting. For example, a level 1 FOnewm running around with level 30 Rafoie and 1500 MST is going to ruin the game for everyone else. If that FOnewm were to let everyone else get their hits in (or just tag everything with J/Z, even better) he wouldn't be much of a bother.



Great point, I back my stuff up too. I DON'T use them unless I get FSOD'd though.

[Coldspiders]

since me and my friend play offline only, we dupe to help each other out, say, he found a DB saber. i dont have one. he dupes it and gives me one of them. simple as that. and of course for scapes and meseta.

[Gjl]

On 2004-07-03 10:36, Coldspiders wrote:
since me and my friend play offline only, we dupe to help each other out, say, he found a DB saber. i dont have one. he dupes it and gives me one of them. simple as that. and of course for scapes and meseta.



Hmm I don't really see the relevance of this to the topic which is 'what do you consider to be cheating?'

[Coldspiders]

i was just saying what i use duping for, me and my friend use that exploit so there for we are cheating in a way....it was off topic though...sorry bout that.

[noob-of-fury]

Exploiters exploit to have their fun. That is perfectly fine, they're enjoying what they pay for. Now if they're using it to hurt someone then they infringe on the other's right to enjoy what they paid for and should be punished for it. Anything other than that is just stupid.

[digigram]

That still has nothing to do with cheating..

Cheating, is using methods outside of a games potential to either get items one wouldn't otherwise be capable of getting or making the game easier by using codes and/or modifications that allow a player to have an advantage over both the game and other players. (see 'aimbot' = quake3)

The "advantage over other players" is what infringes upon other players' paid for TOC.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: digigram on 2004-07-07 12:57 ]</font>

[tor]

I think all exploits are bad.

[Coldspiders]

well, so far, the majority of the votes say that all exploits are wrong. any more personal opinions on this matter?

[HUShadow]

Modding, hacking, duping, all of those. I HATE it when people go non-legit. It's so annoying seeing a level five HUmar with a Dark Flow and Diwari. >.<

[Ezellaur]

Just so all you know (Although it only applies to people who play CMode). You all know the pile of rocks in C7? Yes, I KNOW you know which ones I'm talking about. That is an exploit. Don't try to tell me ST meant for people to squeeze through those rocks.

[Tycho]

id like to say something about stacking, considering noone has said anything good about the subject; ive got to care less about accepting stacked stuff, especially trifluids. maybe for casts its a bit different with trimates, but i'd never ever use 10 flu's in one run. this way, this doesnt help me get much better than if i didnt accept stacks im offered. so theres two differences left:

1.) i won't have to walk to the shops
2.) it saves meseta

personally, i don't have much objection about the first difference, i wouldnt really call it cheating for that. about the second point, the only place the saved meseta would go, is disks. if this is cheating, i dont think it is in a bad way. the reason for disliking cheating is that it would spoil the fun in the game. i think in this case, we accomplish quite the opposite. thus, thats why in this context, i wouldnt think it all that bad. besides, if i have to buy disks, its only because i lost my old ones in a FSOD; due to ST's programming and debugging flaws.

i dont really care about piping or twinking either, the other ways of cheating i do think bad. gawd, why is it even possible people can corrupt other ppl's game data whenever they feel like it..

[Coldspiders]

because the people who like to corrupt other peoples game data are complete idiots. anyway, i stack weapons sometimes just to see what the end result looks like. and to go though stuff faster because i got corrupted a while back and such. other than that, you have brought up something that hasnt been addressed yet.

[Ketchup345]

Some exploits are ok.

Piping rare enemies (ST seemed to have kept that in on purpose, and gave people who can pipe some better items)
Duping for backup, as long as it stays stashed on another character (preferably memory card for corruption safety) and unused, it is not hurting anyone. Duping to replicate Gallon's Shop (you drop a PD, dupe a Add Slot), but only if you are strictly offline.
Recoboxing, or Mothing, or Cana* piping to gain back corrupted levels only.
Also, maxing you stats only when that character has legitamately reached level 200 is OK with me, because you put in 700+ hours, you should be able to see all your stats in gold.

Everything else is "bad".

I disagree with duping some things offline, like Scape Dolls, Meseta, etc. You did not find these things, and are using them to gain a major advantage. Meseta is generally not a problem unless you either die a lot (and forgot to deposit your Meseta), or are raising multiple Mags (especially since each Mag can cost up to 600k Meseta).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ketchup345 on 2004-07-15 13:18 ]</font>

[Coldspiders]

many good points were made above. the gallon's shop is a good concept and very creative. any other opinions?

[SJ]

On a offline only memory card these are ok:
Do anything you want.

When usiong an online card (off and on) these are ok:
Duping things you find (making backups) is ok, i dont, but its ok.
Recoboxing is fine.
Piping is fine.
Tweaking is fine.

Why are these ok?
They all arnt glitches, they can be done without tweaking any of the game itself.
However I believe making backups (I know thats using glitches) is ok because sega didnt mean for fsod (causing item loss)...unless theres some kind of sick plan to make us keep playing (to rehunt the items) O_o

[digigram]

Recoboxing is fine.

I also think it is pathetic.

[Tycho]

Recoboxing... afk it's cheap, if you're actually pressing A yourself; fine in my opinion.

[Coldspiders]

i guess. i dont really know.
ive never tried to 'recobox' before.

[Tycho]

Neither did I. Come on, it's even more boring than TTF... at least you can chat in TTF's, and I think even get more xp.

[Evergea]

I see nothing wrong with giving loot from one character to another character. That's done in PSO with other players anyway.

Duping, I won't do it myself, but if another person wants to do it for a back up, for items or their characters, I see no problem with it. I'm rather disappointed people would dupe just to get an item so they don't have to find it.

Piping, I'm undecided on it. I've never done it, I don't think I will.

Code breaker, if it's used for malicious activities I am against others using it. The last thing we need is a NOL epidemic on our hands.

I'd say most exploits are pretty bad, especially with all the cheating already going on in PSO. If non of the cheating was rampant, the exploits probably wouldn't be frowned on at all.