Learn to fucking debate.

[Ness]

What the hell is with people these days? Instead of giving a rational argument, they chose to call people names and go on pointless, emotional tirades.

Well I'm tired of it. I'm tired of getting called "fucken stupid (notice the irony in this quote)," being told to "dust off my brain," Being told to "go play in traffic," being ordered to get "my head out of my ass," and being called "an idiot" just because my views are different than the person I am arguing with.

What's worse is that they won't provide anything to counter my points. They just call me a "dipshit" and repeat the same stuff the said last time (or go on a tirade).

Since just yelling and running would make me no better than the people I'm ranting about, here are a few tips to improve your skills:

1. If you can't argue back, admit it. It may be humiliating, but it won't make you look like an asshole.

2. Argue using logic, not emotion. No one wants to here your irrational explanations and false justifications for why you believe what you believe.

3. Calling someone names is not a good way to win them over. In fact, it will probably make them more close-minded about what you have to say. As soon as people feel that they are being insulted, walls go up.

4. If you have nothing important to say, don’t say anything at all. Don’t start spamming the topic with pointless post when you feel that you have been beat.

I would like to say that this is not directed at anyone in particular. I've encountered this on both forums and in real life.

[InfernoNR7]

Take a bow, you deserve it.

*applauds*

Well said.

[navci]

Point completely understood.

[Dangerous55]

On 2004-07-12 21:06, Ness wrote:
being called "an idiot" just because my views are different than the person I am arguing with.





Exactly my point with the Bush thing.

[SpikeOtacon]

Thank you ness. It's hard to debate ANYTHING on the internet because of people like that. I recently was at a board with one of those dreaded 'PS2 or XB' threads. I, of course, said Dreamcast. ( http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif ) But I voted for the X-box because I felt like being the oddball (and I do prefer X-box to PS2. Let us not argue that here.) However, because of my decision, this moron starts flaming me and referring to me as 't3h fagget' and even has the nerve to PM me the following message:


The stupid man said:

You're gay.



Only it did NOT have proper spelling on 'you're'. I responded with a quick:



You're absolutly right. Now bend over.
*rolls eyes*


I think it is horrific how People start swearing at you or calling you homosexual because your opinion differed from thiers. Now something I also hate is people who debate things on a much larger scale to the point where it isn't the original post anymore. I recently was banned from a forum a friend of mine introduced me to because I outwitted the admin there (who's a complete moron, btw.) and he got upset. His rules in debate are "I do not stop until Everyone agrees with me or I find a way to shut you up." So he thought banning me was the best way. Well, all 13 other members got pissed at him and left, and now he has the site all to himself. He was also smart enough to break his own rules. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

In other words: If you can't come up with a coherrant responce that holds relevance, shut your mouth.

[Kadavreski]

don't debate you know what you know and if you feel that stronly about it just say its a matter of opinion

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-07-12 21:06, Ness wrote:
What the hell is with people these days? Instead of giving a rational argument, they chose to call people names and go on pointless, emotional tirades.

Well I'm tired of it. I'm tired of getting called "fucken stupid (notice the irony in this quote)," being told to "dust off my brain," Being told to "go play in traffic," being ordered to get "my head out of my ass," and being called "an idiot" just because my views are different than the person I am arguing with.

What's worse is that they won't provide anything to counter my points. They just call me a "dipshit" and repeat the same stuff the said last time (or go on a tirade).

Since just yelling and running would make me no better than the people I'm ranting about, here are a few tips to improve your skills:

1. If you can't argue back, admit it. It may be humiliating, but it won't make you look like an asshole.

2. Argue using logic, not emotion. No one wants to here your irrational explanations and false justifications for why you believe what you believe.

3. Calling someone names is not a good way to win them over. In fact, it will probably make them more close-minded about what you have to say. As soon as people feel that they are being insulted, walls go up.

4. If you have nothing important to say, don?t say anything at all. Don?t start spamming the topic with pointless post when you feel that you have been beat.

I would like to say that this is not directed at anyone in particular. I've encountered this on both forums and in real life.



Oh, well.....not everyone can be a genius like you. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

You should learn to "lighten up", before people will lighten up on you. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'm like most normal people, I never go off on someone unless they push my buttons. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

I've seen you on a number of occassions getting smart with people which in turn makes them a little uneasy, and moody.

I don't mean to be a bastard or anything *work turns you into an ass sometimes*, but you've done that very same thing to me several times.

Oh, well......there's no need to rant over it though, right?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

And Ness.......people that curse your name, or that try to flame you and what not are........ http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-07-13 02:08 ]</font>

[Armok]

I hate debates versus morons just insted of listoning to their insults use clever long words so ppl listoning in think your really smart and the other guys just been served by you.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-07-13 02:29, Armok wrote:
I hate debates versus morons just insted of listoning to their insults use clever long words so ppl listoning in think your really smart and the other guys just been served by you.


*ahem*

I can relate to what you're saying Armok. It's happened to me before. It's really, ummm......whatever you wanna call it. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Oh by the way, here's a good rant.

Why don't people stop using excuses to post their hidden feelings? Why don't people tell the full truth behind their actions? If people have something to say, then they should say it....or don't say anything at all! Am I right?!

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

*Go ahead.....hit me with your big boomstick. I get hit all the time anyway.....might as well take another one for the road, heh* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-07-13 03:10 ]</font>

[Armok]

Oh also a good attack versus the whole 'well your gay' thing is

'I'm gay, am I. Well the insecure tone by which you just tried to insult me leaves me with the distink impression that to you, the most scary thing in life would be being homosexual. This leads me also to anaylse that its most probable that you are in fact just a young insecure virgin teenage who could very well be the one thing he fears the most. Dedusing this also leads me rephase your insult into the question 'Are you gay'.

Anything along those lines makes em go insane or log off either one is funny.

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-07-13 03:04, Armok wrote:
Oh also a good attack versus the whole 'well your gay' thing is

'I'm gay, am I. Well the insecure tone by which you just tried to insult me leaves me with the distink impression that to you, the most scary thing in life would be being homosexual. This leads me also to anaylse that its most probable that you are in fact just a young insecure virgin teenage who could very well be the one thing he fears the most. Dedusing this also leads me rephase your insult into the question 'Are you gay'.

Anything along those lines makes em go insane or log off either one is funny.



I've heard of people doing that before. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

I don't like to point fingers, so I don't think I could do that though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Armok]

You have to shut these kids down they ruin forums and chast boards and must be dealt with in a merciless and evil fashion.

[Solstis]

On 2004-07-13 03:12, DarthFomar wrote:

On 2004-07-13 03:04, Armok wrote:
Oh also a good attack versus the whole 'well your gay' thing is

'I'm gay, am I. Well the insecure tone by which you just tried to insult me leaves me with the distink impression that to you, the most scary thing in life would be being homosexual. This leads me also to anaylse that its most probable that you are in fact just a young insecure virgin teenage who could very well be the one thing he fears the most. Dedusing this also leads me rephase your insult into the question 'Are you gay'.

Anything along those lines makes em go insane or log off either one is funny.



I've heard of people doing that before. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

I don't like to point fingers, so I don't think I could do that though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Nothing more fun than pointing fingers.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

Well, you DO need to deal out death and pain sparingly, though.

[Scejntjynahl]

A debate without emotions? What? You think we are Vulcans? Sorry to say, debates are rudimentary based on emotion, not logic. We debate on things that have a personal meaning to us... hence has an emotional attachment to our being. But I do agree that the delivery can be, and should be, more civilized. But I doubt there will be any "emotionless" debates... just wont happen.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2004-07-12 23:47, SpikeOtacon wrote:
I think it is horrific how People start swearing at you or calling you homosexual because your opinion differed from thiers.


I think a good way to piss those guys off even more, is to give them an unmistakable chain of logic that shows them how their opinion is more likely to be homosexual than your own.

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 02:07, DarthFomar wrote:


Oh, well.....not everyone can be a genius like you. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


You don't have to be a genius to follow those prinicples. Also it's just common etiquitte.

You should learn to "lighten up", before people will lighten up on you. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Lighten up? Why? If I'm debating with someone I'm going to give my all, but I won't insult them. If they feel threatened by me that is their problem, not mine.

I'm like most normal people, I never go off on someone unless they push my buttons. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Well if someone is insulting you then I guess you can insult them back, but the best thing to do is look down on them for insulting you. It works everytime.

I've seen you on a number of occassions getting smart with people which in turn makes them a little uneasy, and moody.


What do you mean by "getting smart" do you mean smart alechy or something else?

I don't mean to be a bastard or anything *work turns you into an ass sometimes*, but you've done that very same thing to me several times.

This wasn't directed at you, or anyone. I didn't make this because of you either. It was actually someone on another forum that inspired me to make this rant. I don't remember ever being an ass to you. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I don't remember it.

Oh, well......there's no need to rant over it though, right?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

There's plenty of reasons to rant over it. People need to be informed. If I start with the people here, hopefully it will spread.


And Ness.......people that curse your name, or that try to flame you and what not are........ http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif




I guess I am pretty good at making people regret it.



On 2004-07-13 08:40, Furankunichan wrote:
A debate without emotions? What? You think we are Vulcans? Sorry to say, debates are rudimentary based on emotion, not logic. We debate on things that have a personal meaning to us... hence has an emotional attachment to our being. But I do agree that the delivery can be, and should be, more civilized. But I doubt there will be any "emotionless" debates... just wont happen.



What I meant is that people argue with emotions instead of logic and facts. Arguing with emotions doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you are passionate aobut a certain topic. The only people you will win over that way are the uninformed.

[WraithVerge]

Heh! *smile and nod*

Here's the greatest thing about debate. If you learn enough about both (all) sides, you can find counters to your own views and find ways to further strengthen your reason.

Now, if you have someone like what Ness has described... I just laugh. When they ask what's so funny, I reply with something smart like "Just your stupidity" or whatever... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[astuarlen]

I agree with your points, Ness, but Furankunichan makes a valid observation. My personal experience leads me to believe that most debates are based on opinions, which are usually linked to emotion in some way. Often, both sides have their own set of "facts" and "irrefutable proof", and ideally we would make a judgment based on which facts are stronger, more numerous, or collectively carry more weight. But even in this situation, a number of factors (emotion, past experience, principles, etc) cause different individuals to see these facts in a different light or dismiss them altogether. Ultimately, what makes a compelling argument differs from person to person, and even what you consider a perfectly logical argument is subject to human analysis.
It's true that a passionate debate will probably only sway the uninformed. But I consider debate to be mostly for the benefit of the uninformed (and perhaps the narcissism and pride of those involved). It is rare that one party in a debate will convince the opposing party to see things their way. I would say this is because a) if you're debating the point, you're most likely pretty convinced of its veracity or merit or b) debates are something of a competition, and we all want to "win". I believe that the best way to actually convince someone of something is to present it in a non-aggressive or -competitive manner. Ideally, you should be able to give him facts and let him make his own conclusions, but a gentle push in the "right" direction helps. If you feel on the defensive, you're less inclined to concede to any type or quality of argument. Generally, the best you can hope for in a debate is that some outside party will take a look at both sides' points and from this, form an oppinion.

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 09:44, astuarlen wrote:
I agree with your points, Ness, but Furankunichan makes a valid observation. My personal experience leads me to believe that most debates are based on opinions, which are usually linked to emotion in some way. Often, both sides have their own set of "facts" and "irrefutable proof", and ideally we would make a judgment based on which facts are stronger, more numerous, or collectively carry more weight. But even in this situation, a number of factors (emotion, past experience, principles, etc) cause different individuals to see these facts in a different light or dismiss them altogether. Ultimately, what makes a compelling argument differs from person to person, and even what you consider a perfectly logical argument is subject to human analysis.
It's true that a passionate debate will probably only sway the uninformed. But I consider debate to be mostly for the benefit of the uninformed (and perhaps the narcissism and pride of those involved). It is rare that one party in a debate will convince the opposing party to see things their way. I would say this is because a) if you're debating the point, you're most likely pretty convinced of its veracity or merit or b) debates are something of a competition, and we all want to "win". I believe that the best way to actually convince someone of something is to present it in a non-aggressive or -competitive manner. Ideally, you should be able to give him facts and let him make his own conclusions, but a gentle push in the "right" direction helps. If you feel on the defensive, you're less inclined to concede to any type or quality of argument. Generally, the best you can hope for in a debate is that some outside party will take a look at both sides' points and from this, form an oppinion.




You too misinterpreted what I meant by "arguing with emotion." Let me give you an example of what I meant. Greenpeace; ever heard of them? They use scare-tactics to convince people to rally behind their causes. They do not use facts when they go out to protest, they say things that trigger negative emotions in other people, usually fear. As we all know, when people get scared, rational thought goes out the window. This is why Europe banned genetically modified foods (they unbanned them once they stop being scared). That's what I mean by arguing with emotions instead of arguing with logic.

[astuarlen]

Sure, I see what you mean now. But, you must admit, demagogues are fun. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 12:08, astuarlen wrote:
Sure, I see what you mean now. But, you must admit, demagogues are fun. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Listening to them? No. Being one? Yes. Making fun of one? Hell yes!!!

[Subliminalgroove]

On 2004-07-13 11:57, Ness wrote:
You too misinterpreted what I meant by "arguing with emotion." Let me give you an example of what I meant. Greenpeace; ever heard of them? They use scare-tactics to convince people to rally behind their causes. They do not use facts when they go out to protest, they say things that trigger negative emotions in other people, usually fear. As we all know, when people get scared, rational thought goes out the window. This is why Europe banned genetically modified foods (they unbanned them once they stop being scared). That's what I mean by arguing with emotions instead of arguing with logic.



First things first... This is going to be off-topic but: yeah, Greenpeace uses some scare tactics in their propaganda... but, EVERY group, even the US Government, uses scare tactics to attempt to control people. They do this because it WORKS. Its quite easy to sway people to your view when they are terrified of what you are preaching against. Simple psychology. The US government did it to sway the majority of the nation to support everything they do, including the passing of the Patriot Act and its cousins and the creation of the Homeland Security Office. Anti-choice groups do it with their pictures of mutilated fetuses. The defense of marriage people do it with their retoric suggesting that if a two men you don't even know get married, that your own marriage will crumble into the bowels of hell. Groups that I support do it as well (greenpeace is one of them). I don't condone it, but it is a fact of life. Its not arguing with emotion, its spreading your propaganda in a way that is proven effective in both swaying new supporters and exciting existing ones.



Emotion itself will ALWAYS be vital to effective debate. If you don't believe in your heart that what you are arguing is right, then how can you even begin to think you will successfully argue your position? Emotion should sit at the core of your argument, it should be there driving you onwards. Logic comes into play to make your argument convincing and make it harder to argue against. Without logic, it is incredibly hard to sway anyone. You just end up preaching to the choir, and that does no good to further your cause.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-07-13 12:37 ]</font>

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 12:36, Subliminalgroove wrote:



Emotion itself will ALWAYS be vital to effective debate. If you don't believe in your heart that what you are arguing is right, then how can you even begin to think you will successfully argue your position? Emotion should sit at the core of your argument, it should be there driving you onwards. Logic comes into play to make your argument convincing and make it harder to argue against. Without logic, it is incredibly hard to sway anyone. You just end up preaching to the choir, and that does no good to further your cause.








I agree. Like I said before, this wasn't the kind of emotion I was talking about.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ness on 2004-07-13 16:49 ]</font>

[navci]

*cries* My emotion for debating about my beliefs are slowing turning into the kind of emotion that make people turn green. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-07-13 08:53, Ness wrote:
Lighten up? Why? If I'm debating with someone I'm going to give my all, but I won't insult them. If they feel threatened by me that is their problem, not mine.

That's a two way street my friend. If "you" feel insulted, then I guess it's not "their" problem either, is it?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 17:06, DarthFomar wrote:

On 2004-07-13 08:53, Ness wrote:
Lighten up? Why? If I'm debating with someone I'm going to give my all, but I won't insult them. If they feel threatened by me that is their problem, not mine.

That's a two way street my friend. If "you" feel insulted, then I guess it's not "their" problem either, is it?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Actually it's their problem too. If they can't debate without insulting people then they are going to have a hard time discussing things with others. Also, not that I said "I wouldn't insult them."

[DarthFomar]

On 2004-07-13 17:17, Ness wrote:

On 2004-07-13 17:06, DarthFomar wrote:

On 2004-07-13 08:53, Ness wrote:
Lighten up? Why? If I'm debating with someone I'm going to give my all, but I won't insult them. If they feel threatened by me that is their problem, not mine.

That's a two way street my friend. If "you" feel insulted, then I guess it's not "their" problem either, is it?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Actually it's their problem too. If they can't debate without insulting people then they are going to have a hard time discussing things with others. Also, not that I said "I wouldn't insult them."


So what you are saying is that you are an exception to your own rule?!

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

What a joke.....seriously, thanks for the laugh though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

[Ness]

On 2004-07-13 17:37, DarthFomar wrote:

On 2004-07-13 17:17, Ness wrote:

On 2004-07-13 17:06, DarthFomar wrote:

On 2004-07-13 08:53, Ness wrote:
Lighten up? Why? If I'm debating with someone I'm going to give my all, but I won't insult them. If they feel threatened by me that is their problem, not mine.

That's a two way street my friend. If "you" feel insulted, then I guess it's not "their" problem either, is it?! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif



Actually it's their problem too. If they can't debate without insulting people then they are going to have a hard time discussing things with others. Also, not that I said "I wouldn't insult them."


So what you are saying is that you are an exception to your own rule?!

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

What a joke.....seriously, thanks for the laugh though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif



I guess you got me there. There was a problem in my initial statement. I admit defeat.


Note: See it wasn't that hard to admit that I was wrong. If I can do it than you can too.