Religion

[Shattered_weasel]

Is fucking pointless. It starts wars. It gets people killed,mugged,raped,beaten,bludgened,arrowed,shot, burned,trampled.

It also makes ShAttered mad, because mother likes go to church and draggin' me along. Wasting my nice relaxation hours.

GAWD DAMN MONGOLIANS!

[Solstis]

You forgot maimed.

Hey, what makes people feel at "peace" is fine, as long as their peace [d]doesn't[/b] require others to be pernamently at peace. I don't mind anyone else's beliefs as long as my life isn't affected. Which it currently is right now, especially with a certain prez.

Capeche?

I have my own views on God and such, which differ day to day, and I won't post them here.

And also, I felt like getting this post in before someone flames Christianity, is subsequently hit with a Bible, and Satan begins to walk PSOW.


[edit]: So that I am not accidentally advocating death


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-07-13 21:19 ]</font>

[Dangerous55]

Is it religion that does that? Or humans?

I agree religion has spawned pretty much every war, but if it wasnt religion it would have been something else.

Now I am not religious, but if followed by non-morons it could be good.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dangerous55 on 2004-07-13 21:29 ]</font>

[Subliminalgroove]

I am also of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the cosmic safety-blanket that is religion; as long as the religious do not try to force their doctrine on me and my body. Unfortunatly, it seems that most religions and pious individuals are fixated on the thought that only they are right and ALL must follow thier gilded path... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't care what religion you subscribe to, I'm glad you find comfort through it. But keep it away from me... I've done my searching and I have made my decision.

[Myopathy]

Do not ignore what religion has DONE though.

It has formed entire nations. It has shaped entire civilizations. It's because of what is has done that it's still around.

Think of it this way. If there was no religion, sure, you may not have to go to church anymore. But without religion, you may also not have a computer. Or a TV. Or a lot of the technology you take for granted. If you don't care about religion, at least realize the huge impact it has had on science and technology throughout the past.

[Subliminalgroove]

I'm not quite sure I see your link of Religion and Technology...

I'm not saying you are wrong... I just need you to clarify it for me.

I can cite more instances where religion stunted scientific progress than encouraged it.

And I think the reason religion is still around is the simple human need for something bigger. Something that explains all the unknowns (of which there are many). Example: How did life come to pass? Many can not believe that amino acids started the whole shebang. And even for those that can, it is still a large strech considering the infinitessimally small chance that those amino acids had of developing into even rudimentary life, much less sentient beings. For many it is just simpiler to ascribe these and other amazing happenings to a higher power, who for some unfathomable reason decided to create life.

In fact, thinking about the incredibly miniscule chances that everything just fell into place to create life, one can almost consider science a loose religion.

The human mind needs something larger than itself, something that it can say commands some sort of control over the seemingly random events in our lives.

[SpikeOtacon]

My view on religion:

It's basically an old-world way of keeping people under control. People were much less intelligent back then and also much more gullable. If a group of lunatics who smoked marijuana came up with a story like what is in the bible, and got enough potheads to follow it, then a religion is born.

Let's take, for instance, cult followings. Cults can belong to a movie, book, game, or idea that some hippie that went on an acid trip had. People tend to follow these things (for lack of a better word) religiously. Why? Because they believe in it enough to actually live by certain values outlined by whatever the source is.

I know it's short, but i'm tired. I will add more to this later.

[Esoteric]

Religious beliefs will always be so varied and misunderstood that there will never be a common ground within it. I personally believe that you shouldn't argue over what people want to believe.

My own personal opinion on religion though is that it is basically just brainwashing people to take a stance on ideas that can't be proven, which to me makes it not worth my time. Faith, I hate it.

[Myopathy]

Back in the day, religion and science really went hand in hand, except for a few cases. Just so happens, these few cases are very well documented, so they are well known among the general population. I'm not going to go back and dig up history books to look up all examples, but I can remember a few very BIG examples.

If it wasn't for religion, all scientific developments made in European ancient times (Greeks, Romans, basically anything pre-medieval) would be lost. I don't know how much you all know about scientific developments made in those times, but let's just say, it was a lot. Religion and the clergy were the only things that allowed that to survive the Middle Ages (Remember, they used to call it the Dark Ages before they got all PC about it. There was a reason for that).

Religions like Confucianism and Taoism single-handely formed the nation of China. Their lifestyle and work ethic was formed mainly due to those two religions. I don't thing I need to mention the tiny contribution China made to civilization in the form of some black dust (Note: They made A LOT more contributions than that, but that seems to be the ones they are most remembered for).

The European Renaissance was heavily influenced by religion. Well, so was every other Renaissance that ever happened.

The printing press (AKA movable type), which is a pretty important development in history considering it allowed for the explosion of mass distribution of literature, was invented due to necessity. They needed to print copies of (what else?) the Bible.

Those are just a few examples, although they are pretty big ones. There are a lot more, I just can't think of them off the top of my head. Religion may not play as big of a role nowadays since society has partitioned science and religion almost entirely. However, you can't ignore it's impact on your life nowadays just because you don't like to go to church. I don't go to church, but I understand the importance it has had and still has on people.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-13 22:15 ]</font>

[shifter]

On 2004-07-13 21:32, Ezellaur wrote:
Do not ignore what religion has DONE though.

It has formed entire nations. It has shaped entire civilizations. It's because of what is has done that it's still around.

Think of it this way. If there was no religion, sure, you may not have to go to church anymore. But without religion, you may also not have a computer. Or a TV. Or a lot of the technology you take for granted. If you don't care about religion, at least realize the huge impact it has had on science and technology throughout the past.



what the hell are you talking about? religion hasnt helped science, if anything its hinderred it. if it wasnt for the dark ages, (i dont know when they started), where religion ruled with pretty much an iron fist, we could be far past what we have now in technology. in that time period science was considered evil, and anyone caught practicing it was dealt with severly. sure, it may have helped join people together to bring together nations, but its also helped to destroy them too.

and as for not having computers or tvs cause of religion is crap. the main reason we have all the tech we have today is cause of WW2. and the main reason it was faught, was to stop germany and its allies from ruling the world. we only found out about the jewing concentration camps toward the end of the war.

so how exactly has religion helped out technology, please i want you to tell me.

[navci]

Rants is kinda becoming like the "Arguing ground" lately? Every topic is being controversial.. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[Subliminalgroove]

I didn't initially see this as a debate topic. Merely a conversation topic. Obviously it could become a debate topic, though I'd much rather it didn't.

[DarthFomar]

There's nothing wrong with religion?! It is sometimes actually quite spiritual and healthy. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

And, as for the whole religion shapping our cultures and society thing......I agree.

But, if you think about it, even the slightest thing can dictate the future sometimes. Nevertheless, religion has definitely been part of the driving backbone of society for thousands of years. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DarthFomar on 2004-07-14 00:25 ]</font>

[Armok]

Religion didnt stunt science morons in charge at the time fearing it would lead to them losing power did so by tell ppl that it was evil.

The Roman empire spread Christianity around europe. However it conquered europe and devolped all its technologies before that which it aquired from Greece and Eygpt. The introduction of christainity did lead to the end of blood sports etc.

The bible, yes has been used to start wars and such but only by ppl wishing to gain extra power for themselves. If they hadnt used religion they would have used something else.

Church is dieing and far fewer ppl are attending it. I mainly do not attend due to the hypercritic natural of all the rich ppl in my area who use it as sort of a 'I'm a better person than you catwalk'. This sickens me as they are the same ppl that are nasty to everyone outside of church.

[Ness]

I'm not too much of a fan of religion either. I used to be a strong Chrsitian,but thhen I started to think and decided that it was just alot of BS. That's why I switchs to a mix of Agnostism and my own beliefs.

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-13 22:55, shifter wrote:


On 2004-07-13 21:32, Ezellaur wrote:
Do not ignore what religion has DONE though.

It has formed entire nations. It has shaped entire civilizations. It's because of what is has done that it's still around.

Think of it this way. If there was no religion, sure, you may not have to go to church anymore. But without religion, you may also not have a computer. Or a TV. Or a lot of the technology you take for granted. If you don't care about religion, at least realize the huge impact it has had on science and technology throughout the past.



what the hell are you talking about? religion hasnt helped science, if anything its hinderred it. if it wasnt for the dark ages, (i dont know when they started), where religion ruled with pretty much an iron fist, we could be far past what we have now in technology. in that time period science was considered evil, and anyone caught practicing it was dealt with severly. sure, it may have helped join people together to bring together nations, but its also helped to destroy them too.

and as for not having computers or tvs cause of religion is crap. the main reason we have all the tech we have today is cause of WW2. and the main reason it was faught, was to stop germany and its allies from ruling the world. we only found out about the jewing concentration camps toward the end of the war.

so how exactly has religion helped out technology, please i want you to tell me.




On 2004-07-13 22:55, shifter wrote:


On 2004-07-13 21:32, Ezellaur wrote:
Do not ignore what religion has DONE though.

It has formed entire nations. It has shaped entire civilizations. It's because of what is has done that it's still around.

Think of it this way. If there was no religion, sure, you may not have to go to church anymore. But without religion, you may also not have a computer. Or a TV. Or a lot of the technology you take for granted. If you don't care about religion, at least realize the huge impact it has had on science and technology throughout the past.



what the hell are you talking about? religion hasnt helped science, if anything its hinderred it. if it wasnt for the dark ages, (i dont know when they started), where religion ruled with pretty much an iron fist, we could be far past what we have now in technology. in that time period science was considered evil, and anyone caught practicing it was dealt with severly. sure, it may have helped join people together to bring together nations, but its also helped to destroy them too.

and as for not having computers or tvs cause of religion is crap. the main reason we have all the tech we have today is cause of WW2. and the main reason it was faught, was to stop germany and its allies from ruling the world. we only found out about the jewing concentration camps toward the end of the war.

so how exactly has religion helped out technology, please i want you to tell me.


Did you just decide to completely ignore my post where I answered those questions BEFORE you even posted? o_O

Also, you don't know much about the Middle Ages do you? Please read up on your history before you come here, totally ignore everything I wrote, then start asking questions I answered in my post (which you totally ignored). The Middle Ages (AKA Medieval Ages) were ruled by kings and kingdoms. Yeah, you know, King Arthur and the gang, and all that chivalry and jazz. Jousting and knights. Religion was present, but it certainly didn't "rule with an iron fist." I don't know which history book you read, but you should look into it more.

Read my post, and if you still have questions, I'd be glad to answer them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 07:12 ]</font>

[Armok]

King Arthur was the dark ages I hate to inform you.

It was most likely he wasnt even a king but a roman legionary left behind when they pulled out their main force from the british isles.

Middle ages was Richard Lionheart type days.

[Myopathy]

OMFG, can you people not read?



On 2004-07-14 07:13, Armok wrote:
King Arthur was the dark ages I hate to inform you.

It was most likely he wasnt even a king but a roman legionary left behind when they pulled out their main force from the british isles.

Middle ages was Richard Lionheart type days.





On 2004-07-13 22:13, Ezellaur wrote:
Middle Ages (Remember, they used to call it the Dark Ages before they got all PC about it.

They're all the same! They're just different names for the same thing.

Also, I mentioned King Arthur because he's a staple figure for what the Medieval Ages was like. I was using him as an example. Whether he's real or not, the stories they tell of him are characteristic of the Middle Ages.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 07:21 ]</font>

[Solstis]

On 2004-07-13 22:13, Ezellaur wrote:
Back in the day, religion and science really went hand in hand, except for a few cases. Just so happens, these few cases are very well documented, so they are well known among the general population. I'm not going to go back and dig up history books to look up all examples, but I can remember a few very BIG examples.

If it wasn't for religion, all scientific developments made in European ancient times (Greeks, Romans, basically anything pre-medieval) would be lost. I don't know how much you all know about scientific developments made in those times, but let's just say, it was a lot. Religion and the clergy were the only things that allowed that to survive the Middle Ages (Remember, they used to call it the Dark Ages before they got all PC about it. There was a reason for that).

Religions like Confucianism and Taoism single-handely formed the nation of China. Their lifestyle and work ethic was formed mainly due to those two religions. I don't thing I need to mention the tiny contribution China made to civilization in the form of some black dust (Note: They made A LOT more contributions than that, but that seems to be the ones they are most remembered for).

The European Renaissance was heavily influenced by religion. Well, so was every other Renaissance that ever happened.

The printing press (AKA movable type), which is a pretty important development in history considering it allowed for the explosion of mass distribution of literature, was invented due to necessity. They needed to print copies of (what else?) the Bible.

Those are just a few examples, although they are pretty big ones. There are a lot more, I just can't think of them off the top of my head. Religion may not play as big of a role nowadays since society has partitioned science and religion almost entirely. However, you can't ignore it's impact on your life nowadays just because you don't like to go to church. I don't go to church, but I understand the importance it has had and still has on people.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-13 22:15 ]</font>


Before someone else bumbles in and says: "Raligen killed sciene!"

Let me point out that Ezellaur is correct. Though you did downplay some of the negatives, the church was one of the few bastions of intelligent thought (of any sort) in Europe during the dark ages.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif *Claps his hands*

Ignore the nay-sayers that are picking out a few sentences and dissing you!

[Armok]

Ok sod it I aint putting up with this anymore.

The onset of Christianity in Eupore was a backwards step in terms of science it lead to the collapse of the romans. That whole pure bloody shit that made them all so imbreed they went mad and killed each other was to do with being a decendent of Peter who wrote the bible.It also turned ppl into wusses. No violent sports and combat exposure ment that other Barberian tribes just came in and kicked their fucking ass FACT.

Wow it kept writing alive during the dark ages (which werent the middle ages that started in 1085 with the Domesday Book which Willaim had comissioned to find out how many ppl lived in his kingdom) so what they pasted the knowlegde on they didnt attually do anything. The only ppl who attually were doing anything at the time where the chinese.

Religion was only kept going because it is a form of control over the pesent ppl who couldnt read. Do as we say or you go to hell. Otherwise why the fuck would anyone want to live in shit while having a job wiping so rich guys arse for a living.

Basically put most ppl are too stupid to cope with the idea of death being the end. So other ppl over the centurys has made up religons to keep them happy and under control. Any person who has stood up and said something profound and good has eventually had their words taken and used by the ppl in charge to exploit peasents even more.

[Scejntjynahl]

On 2004-07-13 21:11, Shattered_weasel wrote:
Is fucking pointless. It starts wars. It gets people killed,mugged,raped,beaten,bludgened,arrowed,shot, burned,trampled.

It also makes ShAttered mad, because mother likes go to church and draggin' me along. Wasting my nice relaxation hours.

GAWD DAMN MONGOLIANS!



Mongolians? You go to a church with Mongolians in it? All I know is this, people hurt other people. Anything else used is just an excuse to do harm. The evil is within us. If you do not want to hurt someone, you will not. If you do, you will try to justify yourself (Im poor, Im mentally unstable, Im following orders, Im doing "gods" work, etc etc).

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2004-07-13 21:28, Dangerous55 wrote:
Is it religion that does that? Or humans?


Religion is a collection of dogma, and the product of humans. God never intended us to split off the way we did. We did that on our own, and any somewhat recent (think last 2000 years or so) warmongering inspired by religion has been due to any given religious leader's misguided insights. This is true for any violence inspired by a religion that worships God, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or any variant thereof. The books that all of those are centered around teach of peace, not war.

This is why I don't consider myself to have a religion.

[Superguppie]

grin. Seems like this sparked some serious flames in some. So, I'll add mine and see what happens.
I have to agree with both Ellazaur and Armok. It was Christian monks that preserved what little was left of the clasical knowledge in the dark ages. It was also the rise of the Christian religion that marks the end of that Clasical period.
Almost all decent scientific stuff in the dark ages was done by monks, probably because they were the only ones that had the time to spare for it. It is no coincidence that the language of science is the same as that of the Roman Catholic Church to this very day.
At the same time it is that same Roman Catholic Church that has brought us the attrocities of the crusades. (I'm not just talking about what those crusaders did to the poor people in the holy land an anywhere along the way there. I also mean the serious impact the indiscriminate drafting of people, and even children, has had on the situation back home.)
After the breaches between church and science, and church and state things have improved with respect to the clergy doing bad, (they have simply been removed from positions where they could do harm) and deteriorated with respect to scientific (among others) development. (Most churches have turned conservative at seeing the territory of God become smaller and smaller.)

I once came up with a very simplistic description of religion. Or rather, the notion of a god. Many religious people may want to flame me for it. But remember, I don't mean any bad. I respect anyones beliefs. It's just a thought that some may think of as an oversimplification. My simple description is that a god is just a way of saying "I don't know" for people that hate saying "I don't know". Only thing I see wrong with that is that saying "I don't know" means I can go look for an answer, while saying "it is god" means I don't have to. (And in some cases it even means I shouldn't. Can't dethrone the god now, can I?) So, naming something god can be a curiosity killer, which is working against science.
However, many scientists, even today, are religious and don't have a problem with that. So, obiously, that isn't a major problem.
It turns out I have no problem with saying "I don't know", so I can't really do much with the notion of a god. Hence my current agnostic stance.

To get back to the original, rant-post. Yes, many attrocities have been commited in the name of god. But is religion that made it happen?
When I look at the major religions of the world, as far as I can see them, I think not. In all cultures I see pacifists and extrimists. In all cultures I see nice people and total assholes. What really stuns me is that in all these cultures, all these people often use religion to justify (or explain) what they do. I've even seen people give their explanations of the same behavior and concluding they were doing something entirely different, because their motivations were from a different background.
Based on what I've seen, I would say there are people that think of "us" and "them" everywhere. These people want to harm "them" and use whatever reasoning they can find to justify it. If you're a Christian, you say the barabarians have to be driven from the holy land. If you're a Muslim you say America is the land of the Devil. It doesn't matter where you are or where you come from. If you want to do bad, you find yourself a reason for it. Any handle will do. It's not the religion that is to blame. (Unless doing bad itself is the religion.)

And I don't think you should take it out on your mother for taking you to church. Most parents think going to church is the right thing to do, and teaching you the values of life is a big part of your upbringing, that should help you survive when you are an adult.
I often view children and adolescents as 'adults in training', with the parents being the teachers. The result of the training should be an adult that can survive in the big bad adult world. If the teacher believes religion is the way to do that, that is the teachers prerogative. Once you are an adult, you make your own way. Ofcourse you could try talking about it seriously, although I doubt it would help. Anyway, try to see it as a learning experience. If it turns out the 'truth' of the church isn't what you need it to be, leave it. But only when you become an adult, no sooner.
(Wow, do I sound conservative there. I hope I won't mess up teaching too badly when I have kids)

Oh, and if you're that opposed to religion, you might want to refrain from using religious curses like those in the first post. It makes no sense for an unbeliever to call on god.
As for the Mongolians, I am clueless. What on earth is meant by that?

[Myopathy]

Before I reply to this, Armok. Do some research. I don't know which ass you're pulling your information out of, but you seriously need to take a history course.



On 2004-07-14 07:54, Armok wrote:
Ok sod it I aint putting up with this anymore.

The onset of Christianity in Eupore was a backwards step in terms of science it lead to the collapse of the romans. That whole pure bloody shit that made them all so imbreed they went mad and killed each other was to do with being a decendent of Peter who wrote the bible.It also turned ppl into wusses. No violent sports and combat exposure ment that other Barberian tribes just came in and kicked their fucking ass FACT.

The main reason why the Roman Empire fell. The Roman government is a form of government used to lead a small nation, NOT an empire. Simply, the Roman Rmpire got too big for its government to handle. They tried splitting it up into parts, and have two "emperors" but that didn't work. It has very little to do with religion. The Roman Army was still very strong and trained during the collapse of the Roman Empire. You can see proof in that from the success of the Byzantine Empire (Which is just the eastern part of the Roman Empire after it collapsed). However, the government and the emperors were quite incompetent in that time, and it eventually led to the collapse.



On 2004-07-14 07:54, Armok wrote:
Wow it kept writing alive during the dark ages (which werent the middle ages that started in 1085 with the Domesday Book which Willaim had comissioned to find out how many ppl lived in his kingdom) so what they pasted the knowlegde on they didnt attually do anything. The only ppl who attually were doing anything at the time where the chinese.

Learn your history (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761578474/Middle_Ages.html). Dark Ages = Middle Ages. If you want to get technical about it, the Dark Ages actually refer to the beginning part of the Middle Ages. Okay so they "pasted" the knowledge on. I guess if they had a computer and could just copy and paste, that wouldn't be such a big deal. No they went through every single book and made copies. HANDWRITTEN copies. Of every single literary work they could get their hands on. And whether you see that as contribution or not, you still can't ignore the fact that if it wasn't for them, we would not have a lot of the founding theories of science! Do you not see how important that was? Sure they just "pasted." But you make it seem like it's no big deal. Damn, please don't be so close-minded. What if they didn't keep copies of the works? Let's see what we would've missed out. Aristotle, Archimedes, Plato, Socrates. Without the guys from ancient Greece/Rome, people like Newton would've never developed calculus. Without calculus, that processor of your's would not exist.

Also, the Chinese were not the only people making scientific discoveries during the Middle Ages. The Muslims were also making huge discoveries in the field of science. Both cultures, might I add were heavily influenced by religion. Chinese lifestyle was based entirely on the religious teachings of Confucianism and Taoism. And the entire Islamic culture spins around the religion, and still does today.

Please, if you're going to argue, at least get your facts straight. I hate seeing people arguing and coming to conclusions based on a bunch of information they made up. Also note, I have not mentioned anything about religion causing harm to society. I am merely pointing out that religion has helped society, and still is very powerful nowadays. I do not doubt it has caused a lot of grief in the past, but I'm just saying, in turn, it has help lead to where we are today.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 09:12 ]</font>

[Armok]

The Dark ages is a referal to Europe so what the hell are you talking about the middle east for. You dont knwo what the hell your saying I'm taking facts out a book your just arguing rubbish in order to not be proved wrong which you are.

[HUnewearl_Meira]

On 2004-07-14 09:19, Armok wrote:
The Dark ages is a referal to Europe so what the hell are you talking about the middle east for. You dont knwo what the hell your saying I'm taking facts out a book your just arguing rubbish in order to not be proved wrong which you are.



The Crusades were an attack on the Middle East by Europe. That's a big part of what they're pissed off about now.

[shifter]

On 2004-07-14 07:10, Ezellaur wrote:


On 2004-07-13 22:55, shifter wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-07-13 21:32, Ezellaur wrote:
Do not ignore what religion has DONE though.

It has formed entire nations. It has shaped entire civilizations. It's because of what is has done that it's still around.

Think of it this way. If there was no religion, sure, you may not have to go to church anymore. But without religion, you may also not have a computer. Or a TV. Or a lot of the technology you take for granted. If you don't care about religion, at least realize the huge impact it has had on science and technology throughout the past.


Did you just decide to completely ignore my post where I answered those questions BEFORE you even posted? o_O

Also, you don't know much about the Middle Ages do you? Please read up on your history before you come here, totally ignore everything I wrote, then start asking questions I answered in my post (which you totally ignored). The Middle Ages (AKA Medieval Ages) were ruled by kings and kingdoms. Yeah, you know, King Arthur and the gang, and all that chivalry and jazz. Jousting and knights. Religion was present, but it certainly didn't "rule with an iron fist." I don't know which history book you read, but you should look into it more.

Read my post, and if you still have questions, I'd be glad to answer them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 07:12 ]</font>


um no did read your second post, im included it in my first post and i say nothing that actually explained anything to me after i reread it. while you are right about religion helping out the east, and i cant say anything about what you said about the romans cause i dont follow that period of time in italy, i do know it has done nothing, i repeat, nothing to help out science. i know this cause i actually learned something in my high school history class, watch the history channel on a regular basis, and got a few facts from other credible sources. i dont know what book your getting your info from, maybe a grade school catholic book, but its wrong. i agree with armok on this, learn some facts man. i may not know as much as id like to know about the middle and dark ages, but i do know what your saying is wrong.

[Superguppie]

I don't think the definition of dark or middle ages is a thing in this discussion. I have always been taught that in the period between the fall of the Roman Empire and the coming of the Renaisance, it were the Christian monks that did the science. Not just the preservation of what was by copying the old writings. Also there are a few original works from that time, mostly by monks. I'd have to look up the names, as it's been a while since I had that course.

After rereading the entire thread it strikes me how much of it (including my own bit) is Christian. Ezellaur is right in pulling in the Chinese and the Muslims, although it's a shame it stays at that. (Mind you, I can't do much better myself, as I don't know that much either) I think the Indians (that's the people from India, not the Native Americans) should also be mentioned, as they gave us one of the greatest scientific concepts of all time: the number 0. It was brought to us by the Muslims when they occupied vast portiones of Europe...

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-14 09:19, Armok wrote:
The Dark ages is a referal to Europe so what the hell are you talking about the middle east for. You dont knwo what the hell your saying I'm taking facts out a book your just arguing rubbish in order to not be proved wrong which you are.


Think before you post. I just mentioned them as further examples of religion helping science and development. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are other religions outside of Christianity and Europe.

And instead of making wild claims of my information bring rubbish with no support or explanation, how about you point out exactly what is rubbish and point me to a reliable source that says otherwise. And no, just saying "my textbook says so" is not a reliable source.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 10:49 ]</font>

[Superguppie]

On 2004-07-14 10:32, shifter wrote:
um no did read your second post, im included it in my first post and i say nothing that actually explained anything to me after i reread it.

Well, what to make of that. I had to read that 3 times for it to make any sense. And even now I'm not sure just exactly what you are trying to say.

However, my main concern with your post is what follows:


while you are right about religion helping out the east, and i cant say anything about what you said about the romans cause i dont follow that period of time in italy,

Uhhhhh, where did you learn history? By the time the Roman Empire collapsed, it reached from parts of the British Island all the way into the area that we now know as Israel and Palestina. (Or maybe even furhter. Geography is not my strongest point.) So, the demise of that great state wasn't exactly an Italian event. Actualy, it was the main event before the dark/middle ages.



i do know it has done nothing, i repeat, nothing to help out science.

Nothing, apart from BEING science for almost 1000 years. And laying the foundations for most modern sciences today.

[Solstis]

Supperguppie and Ezellaur posted before me, and basically summed up what I was going to say anyways.

Some people *points at a few certain posters in this thread* need to look beyond their close minded perception of what religion is and what it has done in the past.

As for the pathetic counters using iffy logic and angry gibberish, I point to Ness' thread about discussions. Obviously, therapy may be in order.

[edit]: W00t! I spelled Ezellaur correctly!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2004-07-14 10:56 ]</font>

[Myopathy]

First off, shifter and Armok, here is a link you guys need to read.

http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=86172&forum=11&27

Ok. I'll give you both a minute to read it, while I respond to shifter's incomprehensible post (English class shifter? Ever...heard of it?)

[Eanae]

Religeon has done alot to shape our past, and build up what we are today, but most of that building was done using violence. Senseless killing in the name of <instert random god name here>. This same thing is happening today. Look at the muslims who want to kill us because allah "says" we're evil. Does religeon justify all of this? Is religeon a valid excuse to wage war, and kill countless people? Of course if this was not the case we wouldn't be where we are today, but that still doesn't make it right. Maybe we wouldn't be so advance, but so many lives wouldn't have been lost for a such a senseless cause.

I personally will not speak of my religeon, because I do not wish to be flammed for what I am. Religeon got my people killed in the past because they were misunderstood (no I ain't jewish). So I shut my mouth now.

[Myopathy]

I was going to respond to shifter's entire comment. But I just can't understand a single thing he's saying except for this.



On 2004-07-14 10:32, shifter wrote:
it has done nothing, i repeat, nothing to help out science.

See, this is where it would've helped for you to read my previous posts, where I explicitly list the contributions made by religion toward the field of science. You should go back and read it, instead of just posting "No it doesn't help," over and over again like a 2-year old, while at the same time, managing to make yourself look unreasonably ignorant. If you read it again, and can't find anything. Then in addition to English classes, I suggest you take one of those reading classes I'm sure they offer at your local library.



On 2004-07-14 10:32, shifter wrote:
i know this cause i actually learned something in my high school history class, watch the history channel on a regular basis

shifter, just because you've taken a high school history class and you've watched the History Channel, doesn't mean you know SHIT about history. Actually, you've demonstrated already that you know VERY little about it.



On 2004-07-14 10:32, shifter wrote:
i dont know what book your getting your info from, maybe a grade school catholic book, but its wrong.

I like how both you and Armok conveniently leave out exactly WHICH information I listed was wrong. I DARE you. I fucking DARE you to name exactly what it is you "claim" is wrong. The only reason you guys won't is because you know I can find millions of sources that can support me.



On 2004-07-14 10:32, shifter wrote:
i agree with armok on this, learn some facts man. i may not know as much as id like to know about the middle and dark ages, but i do know what your saying is wrong.

Again, what am I saying is wrong? "The monks of the Middle Ages didn't do shit right? No, they didn't make copies of the works of ancient times. Oh yeah, and the Chinese didn't develop gunpowder. And Chinese society was obviously not influences by Confucianism. And the Muslims never made any contribution to the arts and architecture."

Is that what you guys are saying? Because if you're saying my information is wrong, then that's what you're saying. And if that's what you're saying...well...never mind.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 11:16 ]</font>

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-14 11:07, Eanae wrote:
Look at the muslims who want to kill us because allah "says" we're evil.

Ok, kids, there's definetly some things we should all learn from this quote. This really doesn't relate to the whole religion/science debate, but this is still an important fact youall should know.

The Islamic religion does NOT say that they should hate us. Nowhere in the Islamic religion does it even mention us. Just because a few messed-up radicals have used Islam as an excuse to wage war against us, does not mean all Muslims are the same. Do not ever make that generalization.

[KodiaX987]

A very, very, very, very, very smart man on Bash.org once said...


<XnD> Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-14 11:16, KodiaX987 wrote:
A very, very, very, very, very smart man on Bash.org once said...


<XnD> Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand


I believe that's what a couple of the members who have posted have tried to say. Unfortunately, some people just like to ignore posts that have reason and common sense in it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ezellaur on 2004-07-14 11:19 ]</font>

[Scejntjynahl]

One question. Wasnt this rant about wasting time going to Church? When did it become about the evils of religion? The original poster was pissed off because he didnt want to share the views of his mother, nor waste his "relaxing" time by been at church. Im sure the original meaning of the post is similar to a child who just refuses to eat his vegetables and says vegetables are evil. Now everyone else is now saying that vegetables are the bringers of doom to world as we know it. *sigh* He just doesnt want to go to church, big deal. I doubt he would have ranted if his mother would have let him stay home instead.

[KodiaX987]

Nah, I think it was more a job of filling thousand of paragraphs while all that was needed was a simple, straightforward and slightly comic quote.

I think I've just summed up two and a half pages of flaming. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-14 11:20, Scejntjynahl wrote:
One question. Wasnt this rant about wasting time going to Church? When did it become about the evils of religion? The original poster was pissed off because he didnt want to share the views of his mother, nor waste his "relaxing" time by been at church. Im sure the original meaning of the post is similar to a child who just refuses to eat his vegetables and says vegetables are evil. Now everyone else is now saying that vegetables are the bringers of doom to world as we know it. *sigh* He just doesnt want to go to church, big deal. I doubt he would have ranted if his mother would have let him stay home instead.

You're right, that's probably the reason he posted. But he did post this.


On 2004-07-13 21:11, Shattered_weasel wrote:
Is fucking pointless. It starts wars. It gets people killed,mugged,raped,beaten,bludgened,arrowed,shot, burned,trampled.

And I just wanted to make a post and explain that although it has caused a lot of trouble, it has made invaluable contributions at well.

But apparently, some people wanted to argue that fact. And that added to the fact I have a very big weakness of not being able to stand ignorant/stupid people led to the two pages.

[darthsaber9x9]

in response to the ORIGINAL POST: have you talked to your mother and asked her to respect your views by NOT making you go to church?

if you haven't you should do that first. if you have then i dont know what to do.

in response to eane: you're a fool...religion hasnt make people do anything, as it has been stated about 3 times or more already.

[Eanae]

On 2004-07-14 11:14, Ezellaur wrote:


On 2004-07-14 11:07, Eanae wrote:
Look at the muslims who want to kill us because allah "says" we're evil.

Ok, kids, there's definetly some things we should all learn from this quote. This really doesn't relate to the whole religion/science debate, but this is still an important fact youall should know.

The Islamic religion does NOT say that they should hate us. Nowhere in the Islamic religion does it even mention us. Just because a few messed-up radicals have used Islam as an excuse to wage war against us, does not mean all Muslims are the same. Do not ever make that generalization.



I'm not gonna fight anything, I just want to know where in that I said all muslims. I see where it could have been misunderstood, but you also can't just assume. I know quite a few awesome muslim people. And last time I knew atleast they didn't wanna kill me. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[KingCanin]

Ah, this debate over the past benefits of religion is completely for naught. You're all looking entirely into the past, and the significance of religion then.

While it may be true that, in the past, religion was absolutely critical to the building of nations and the structuring of society, this should not be reason to exempt it from criticism now. Just as one should not judge a person, or even the populace of a nation or region, on their past contributions or detriments to society, religion should be judged upon what it currently offers to humanity.

And, unfortunately for religion, what it offers now isn't all that much. As a tool originally intended to explain the unknown, it has fallen into a state of disuse. We don't need religion now, we've found most of the answers to the questions in science (The aid to science that may or may not have been contributed by religion is entirely irrelevant). So what does religion give us now then? Well, a lot of strife and war. It's an entity that now, in it's current form, does very little but encourage ignorance and misunderstandings.

So, why bother?

[Scejntjynahl]

On 2004-07-14 11:31, KingCanin wrote:
Ah, this debate over the past benefits of religion is completely for naught. You're all looking entirely into the past, and the significance of religion then.

While it may be true that, in the past, religion was absolutely critical to the building of nations and the structuring of society, this should not be reason to exempt it from criticism now. Just as one should not judge a person, or even the populace of a nation or region, on their past contributions or detriments to society, religion should be judged upon what it currently offers to humanity.

And, unfortunately for religion, what it offers now isn't all that much. As a tool originally intended to explain the unknown, it has fallen into a state of disuse. We don't need religion now, we've found most of the answers to the questions in science (The aid to science that may or may not have been contributed by religion is entirely irrelevant). So what does religion give us now then? Well, a lot of strife and war. It's an entity that now, in it's current form, does very little but encourage ignorance and misunderstandings.

So, why bother?



I bet your mother doesnt force you to go to church, Im sure the original poster is jealous.

Why bother? The same could be asked of you, why did you post? Because simply you wanted to. Perhaps religion plays no part in your life, and you are better for it. Good. But it does play a part for others, and it is good for them.

Simply put, anything, and I mean anything, taken to an extreme will always spell disaster.

[Superguppie]

On 2004-07-14 11:16, KodiaX987 wrote:
A very, very, very, very, very smart man on Bash.org once said...


<XnD> Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand


amen Amen AMEN!

As I said in my first post in this thread, it's NOT religion that is bad, it's the bad people using (or should I say abusing) religion to justify there negative actions.

[KingCanin]

It's been stated several times through this topic that religion is good, and people who revel in it can make it bad. Now I'm going to ask a critical question.

What, exactly, makes religion good?

[Myopathy]

On 2004-07-14 11:44, KingCanin wrote:
It's been stated several times through this topic that religion is good, and people who revel in it can make it bad. Now I'm going to ask a critical question.

What, exactly, makes religion good?

That's sort of a trick question. Keep in mind, religion is NOT good for everyone.

[Subliminalgroove]

DAMN! This thing exploded since my last look.

Calm down people.

First of all, thank you Supperguppie for your original post and Ezellaur for your clarification (your second post) that jogged some memories for me.

Yes the monks did indeed gather knowlege and keep it safe. All that they could get, barring the untold knowledge that burned in the Great Library of Alexandria. However, they did not do an awful lot to spread that knowlege. Those that learned were generally cloistered in monestaries. So that knowledge was effectively locked up for hundreds of years. But it was preserved. And that much we should acknowledge.

Also, it should be acknowleged that most of the strides (and stagnation) made in the arts and learning during the Renaissance is largely due to the Catholic churh. If you need proof of that, simply look at what came out of the period. About 99% has to do with the church. This is because the church acted as patrons to countless artists, artisians, musicians, and composers. The chuch had most of the money, so this isn't suprising. However, secular advancedment at this time (at least in the arts) was VERY restricted (hence the mention of stagnation).
It should also be noted that while many discoveries, explorations, and inventions during this period can be traced back to the chuch, it does not necessarily mean that it was done in the name of the church. Many of these "advances" were done with Royal sponsorship or were simply generated for trade reasons (Eventually, it is MONEY that rules this world). The reason one can trace them back to the church is that the church had its hands in everything. It does NOT meant that they were directly responsible.








<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Subliminalgroove on 2004-07-14 12:41 ]</font>

[ABDUR101]

Quick, everyone ask yourselves whats the difference between a God and a Demon.


Now that I've distracted you, I'm going to lock this thread because I'm going to end up banning people if it keeps going in this direction. Whee!

Sorry you have to waste time in church Shattered, maybe tell your mom how you feel about it and let her know you have your own thoughts on the matter, and that being made go is really turning you off from the whole idea.

Sheesh, heh, lets not bring up religion again, it's been done too often and too often it ends up with numerous people getting warnings or banned, and the staff has to read through all the bullshit.

The forum rules say no pontification, and while I appreciate everyone trying to have a discussion and keeping it somewhat civil, it's just starting to turn into personal insults and so-so saying you don't know jack and blah fricken blah.

So, in the end, everyone go get their own studies going, and go find a religious forum or chat to have fun.