75% weps?

[Yosho]

It seems that Episode I & II weps can go past 60% this time around! http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif

http://www.planetps2.com/pe2/pso/gallery/199008.jpg


your thoughts on this.....?

[Wewt]

See!? I'm right on it...Oh and Yosho. Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been posted twice already...

[Last_Saiyan]

And it seems you can chat at the same time as you're checking your menus. Hehehe j/k.

[TeamPhalanx]

So, what's the % limit this time?

[Yosho]

On 2002-06-20 09:34, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:
See!? I'm right on it...Oh and Yosho. Sorry to burst your bubble but this has been posted twice already...



hey i didnt see it if it was posted, so what http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_bash.gif

[Malkavian]

If the % work like in DC it'll be crazy.... 75% wep http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif Oh my thats 2 much hehe

[BrokenHope]

which means highest % would probably be 100%. Say you find the special weapon with 90% then tekker it to 100%. I say this because kaetwyn/demure found a 90% a beast buster in the trial, which can't be tekkered but a special weapon can though. So i think 100% is the max.

[nosaJ]

Still the same old Pioneer 2 on GC version?

[MarkXIII]

On 2002-06-20 11:00, LuvSlave wrote:
I say this because kaetwyn/demure found a 90% a beast buster in the trial


Of all the people to not buy a Xbox an get GC. Sheesh!

[Last_Saiyan]

Well, Episode II's creatures might have higher evp and def so I think it'll round out. I can't wait to play with legit people in open games the first 2 months of the game, whoopie!!!

[nosaJ]

Mmmmmmmmm... legit. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Yosho]

100% *drooooooooools* http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

[Kenks23]

Sounds cool. I'm looking forward to PSO.

[Zarana]

I guess we know what this means. S-Rank weapons are completely useless. A pretty unbalanced decision on Sonic Team's behalf, in my opinion.

Oh well. Maybe they'll let you win armor in Challenge instead. It's still a real pity that all the old S-Ranks are now outpowered by a 100% DB's Saber, though..

[nosaJ]

On 2002-06-20 14:52, Zarana wrote:
I guess we know what this means. S-Rank weapons are completely useless. A pretty unbalanced decision on Sonic Team's behalf, in my opinion.

Oh well. Maybe they'll let you win armor in Challenge instead. It's still a real pity that all the old S-Ranks are now outpowered by a 100% DB's Saber, though..



You can get Rings in Challenge Mode. They're like armor. I prefer winning a weapon in Challenge Mode in my opinion, you get to name it.

[Last_Saiyan]

It'll be beyond sweetness if you can obtain S Rank Armors and Shields..or even mags in the new Challenge modes and be able to name them also!!! Think about it?!! You can have an armor called Ron Jeremy's Fur!!!!

[Zarana]

I'm aware of the Rings. If I had forgotten about them, I would have said something about winning armor *and* shields. I was thinking more along the lines of S-Rank, nameable armor, instead of the runner-up prizes of the White and Yellow Rings.

Also, to be fair, a name doesn't necessarily make a weapon good. My old S-Rank Psychoguns might still look nice and have a stylish name, but if I can have a 100% H&S25 Justice, there just won't be any reason to stick use them. These ridiculous new percentages ruins all appeal of an S-Rank weapon, so hopefully Sonic Team took the sensible route and allowed natural percentages on S-Ranks.

I honestly feel sorry for the state of PSO when a 100% Crush Bullet is easily better than the S-Rank Shot. Where a DB's Saber and a Blade Dance are potentially more devastating than the S-Rank J-Blade and Daggers.







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zarana on 2002-06-20 15:51 ]</font>

[nosaJ]

Hmm, would be nice to get S-Rank weapon in Challenge WITH %s, depends how good you are. The good you did, higher the %. What do you think?

[nosaJ]

Or... just get a S-Rank weapon with random %s depends on how lucky you are.

[Last_Saiyan]

Well, this might work...they'll ask you if you want some %'s and if you said yes then you'll get transfered to that glow ball catching game and the more you catch then the better your weapon's % will be. Yeah, I know....

[Defend]

Well, do we even know what 100% means?

Perhaps GC's 100% is the same as DC's 50%.

60% was already too much imo..

But what did % mean anyway.. hit% definately wasn't a property that calculated with %ages at all.

60% Mach.. did that mean it acted like it had 60% more ATP? Added 60% more? Did 60% more damage?

I think its a bad decision anyway, they were already at a high top limit for the %ages. Why don't they just make 1000%.. they seem to think that will make it more fun.

[nosaJ]

Doesn't seem to be a bad idea.

[nosaJ]

Defend, did we posted at the same time? http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif 1000% is just insane.

[AMP]

Um maybe it's just me, but don't you think ST might change it in the final release. I don't know if anyone else remebers, but in the PSO strategy guide it said %s could go up to 100%. Yet they only went to 60%. Maybe ST just left it at 100% because it's just the trial.

[Zarana]

If they changed the way a percentage is calculated, making 100% the equivalent of the old 60%, things will be fine. I personally doubt it, though. I'm inclined to believe that percents were raised so V1 weapons wouldn't be absolutely worthless in Ultimate Mode. I suppose that, to balance Ultimate Mode, they unbalanced percentages.

If everything was given a complete overhaul, then yes, S-Rank weapons will still have a purpose. If not, then there certainly better be a way to give them percentages or win armor instead. Because if percents go by their DreamCast logic, the damage from a 100% DB's Saber will crush an S-Rank weapon quite handily. Red Handgun will be a devastating killing machine. Hah.

[Wewt]

I hope that this time around Challenge mode will have alot more items to choose from as prizes. I mean completing challenge mode in 7 hours to gain one of the strongest weapons in game is ridiculous. If I'm right I believe it was something like 10 hours to gain a B rank, a yellow ring. They should've really stretched it...not have all 25 weapons available once you complete challenge mode, have it so that the better stuff is available once you reach certain criteria, such as a 5 hour completion time.

Another thing, I hope that this time the S rank weapons are more appealing, as in better looking. I've seen a picture of a needle and it doesn't look too good to me...yes I know it wasn't an S rank weapon.

[nosaJ]

Yeah they're boring looking. Would be cool to create the looks of the weapons and choose the kind (saber, handgun, etc).

[Wewt]

On 2002-06-20 16:00, nosaJ wrote:
Yeah they're boring looking. Would be cool to create the looks of the weapons and choose the kind (saber, handgun, etc).


Another point where ST could make the Xbox version of PSO alot better...the ability to download patches for new weapons...even levels

[nosaJ]

Yea that would be cool. I don't care about the X-Box version anyway.

[Defend]

V1 weaps were alrady strong in Ult with the DC's %ages.

If it was to balance Ult mode, that would mean Ult weapons would still have low %s.. which we doubt heh.

I scored 2004 with a Sawcer in one hit, with a RAcast in Ult Forest. 45% Nat. I don't see 100% making that more balanced.

[nosaJ]

On 2002-06-20 16:19, Defend wrote:
V1 weaps were alrady strong in Ult with the DC's %ages.

If it was to balance Ult mode, that would mean Ult weapons would still have low %s.. which we doubt heh.

I scored 2004 with a Sawcer in one hit, with a RAcast in Ult Forest. 45% Nat. I don't see 100% making that more balanced.





It'll be more balanced if the enemies have more DEF and EVP.

[Wewt]

That was a problem I noticed about Ultimate mode. The difference of difficulty between forest and caves compared to mines and ruins was nonsense. You could say have a weapon that hits for 200 or so in forest and caves, which would do nothing in mines or ruins.

[nosaJ]

Sonic Team will need some very serious math to solve this shit.

[Wewt]

On 2002-06-20 16:29, nosaJ wrote:
Sonic Team will need some very serious math to solve this shit.


Or...stick to the same pattern they had in normal, hard and v-hard difficulties. The enemies that little tougher each level. Not a HUGE leap like ult mode.

[Zarana]

Your example being a RAcast with a Charge or Berzerk weapon, I don't think you're giving a fair representation of all the characters. Sure, if ATA isn't a concern, you can achieve some impressive damage, but let's see a Hunter or a Force accomplish the same thing.

Granted, they *can* do it, but more often than not they will fail. Since, to consistently hit with a V1 weapon, a Hunter or Force usually has to use weak attack to hit an enemy, I believe this was probably done to make the more difficult stages of Ultimate a reasonable way to gain levels. While it can certainly be done now, it is extremely inefficient. Sure, you can survive the Ultimate Ruins with a V1 weapon, but in the hours it takes you to clear it, the amount of experience you gain would be more than tripled in the Ultimate Forest.

In short, I believe it was done as a reason for levels like the Ultimate Mines and Ruins to exist. As it stands right now, there's really no reason to go past the Caves unless you have some powerful weaponry.

If Ultimate Mode is going to exist for the Episode II levels, I think it's safe to assume that they're going to have to flow them together a little better. Ultimate Ruins only being the middle of the road now, weapon percentages have been adjusted accordingly. For a halfway point of sorts, no one should have to struggle to deal damage. It would just make no sense.

Although I don't necessarily agree with 100% weapons, if an Ultimate Mode is going to exist for Episode II as well, I guess it might be necessary.

[nosaJ]

Well said.

[Defend]

That was my point.. it wasn't the damage a weap could do that made it unbalanced.. just the whole ATA issue.

Heck if Malk used it with his HUcast he'd own.

There seemed to be, for all baddies in all areas of Ult, an 'elbow' of defence you had to get past. The damage you could do was pathetic, and crawled up slowly as you grew ATP, but once you seemed to get over some point, damage dealt grew alot faster. In Mines and ruins this elbow just seemed more blunt, and further away. In Forest, you'd crawl damamge wise, then suddenly you'd start getting stronger and stronger with a fair bit of ease.

Dunno why I just said that...


I didn't like how ATA worked in Ult mode.. it (usually - Red Gun was an exception) made the class insignificant, and the weap all that mattered. Eg, Picks. I liked how in say, V Hard you could still us a Hard weapon.. just it would b a bit shoddy.

[Zarana]

ATA was handled with almost the same stupidity as MST, in my opinion. It just defies all logic that you can count the difference in damage between a FOmarl's spells and a FOnewearl's spells on your fingers. ATP is probably the *only* thing they did a decent job on, with regards to Ultimate. And if this ridiculous ATA/MST deficit is going to grow even moreso in Episode II's Ultimate, I honestly don't think it would be reasonable to stick a Hunter or a Force in the later levels. Judging by the strength curve of the enemies, by the new last level, Rangers would have to be the only characters capable of doing any damage. Forces' Techniques would literally be doing damage in the 20s all-around and a Hunter might hit once in every three strikes.

I guess I would rather have S-Rank weapons be obsolete than two entire character classes, so, eh, bring on the 100% weapons. If they're not going to the fill the EVP gap, I suppose this is the next best thing.

--Oh, and if the Ultimate difficulty curve *does* keep going upwards with the transition to Episode II, Rangers will be easily the most dominant class. Heck, you might even say they would be the only useful class. They're going to have to do more to balance things than just screw up the percentage system, in my book. Picture enemies with twice the evasion and twice the technique resistance of the Ultimate Ruins... it just shouldn't happen.

[Cloak]

You people are looking way too far into the future. Why? S RANKS? Obsolete? How do you know? There is currently no information on S RANK weapons. Ultimate mode EPII last stage being 4 times as hard as ult ruins, and rangers being the only one to damage? How do you know? There was NO mention of a special last EPII stage at all, let alone information of it being incredibly hard. Stop trying to predict things, sure ST isn't the smartest, but c'mon, would they REALLY make it so only rangers can hit stuff in ult EPII? Or forces doing 15 damage? Why not wait and see how things are going to be? For all anyone knows, they could've revamped EVERYTHING, enemy resistances, DFP, EVP, spell damage, MST, ATA, ATP, ETC., ETC., ETC!Assumptions/opinions don't really aid to true information. So don't jump the gun. o_O;

[rbf2000]

It's a tough thing to balance. Obviously, it's not very balanced that forces can't hardly even hurt anything with their spells, but if they have too much atp, or ata, then what is the point of a RA or HU. I think what they are doing is a good thing. So now even though forces may not be able to do any physical damage (which they shouldn't be able to do) HUmars will not be able to do all the same things AND be able to dish out the physical damage.

Was there a point to what I wrote...?

[Zarana]

In case you didn't notice, this is all speculation, and I don't really think it would happen. I'm just reflecting on what COULD happen if Sonic Team does nothing to alter the difficulty curve.

As for S-Rank weapons being obsolete, though, you've got to realize that a 100% DB's Saber is better than each and every one of the current S-Ranks. And since DB's Saber is a bottom-of-the-barrel weapon, imagine if you got something else with 100%. S-Ranks would be even more useless. Plain and simple, unless they can have percentages, this 100% concept ruins any usefulness an S-Rank weapon ever had. No matter what, a mediocre weapon with 100% is going to be better than a great weapon with 0%.

That's probably the only bit of speculation I'm actually taking seriously at this point. Sonic Team *must* have balanced the EII Ultimate levels. If they didn't, it would be completely ridiculous. And, blind to the obvious as they may be, I highly doubt they missed this one. My past posts were just stating the reasons why Sonic Team must have balanced EII Ultimate. If they didn't, the results would be a catastrophe.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zarana on 2002-06-20 18:39 ]</font>

[Cloak]

Ummm.... I don't know where you get this DB'S SABER 100% = better than an S RANK. Let's use S RANK SABER as an example. Even with 100% to, let's say, A.Beast, DB's SABER definitely isn't better than S RANK SABER, when used in Cave. (I'm not even sure if a 180% DB's is better.) Plus you might be forgetting the huge difference in ATA, making DB SABER the one that barely hits, and barely damages. (Barely damages compared to the more powerful SABER.)

And to the person who posted above Zaran, yes your post had a point. A VERY good one, at that. People forget that forces are mainly for support, not to be some all-powerful technical PSO character of destruction. Most people don't even UNDERSTAND how freakin' powerful a force would be if ST listened to the ignorant ones requesting forces MST to be increased. While it's true it's unfair forces do 90ish damage in ult. ruins, this doesn't mean they should get a HUGE increase. If they did, it'd be just like a max MST force w/LV30 techs in vhard, a HUMAN NEEDLE.

I personally think force general MST damage should be raised, slightly. And single hit techs should be raised significantly. So a foie should be able to do 200-300 damage in ruins. Having single hit techniques be more powerful would even it out sorta, since they won't be destroying EVERYTHING in sight with RA techs. And as far as support techs go, they should be based on MST. S/D/J/Z should be weaker or stronger depending on MST. It makes no sense a FOnewearl's shifta is just as effective as a FOmarl's. Maybe making MST act like this would finally allow FOnewearl to be the ultimate support character she was intended to be. But at this point I really don't care or need to think about PSO. Just giving input..

~EDIT~
Oh, and if you're saying DB's SABER is better than ALL S RANK's just because of the fact of it's TP special, I'd like to see you try that lovely special in ultimate mode. See how effective it connects there. u_n;;



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cloak on 2002-06-20 21:00 ]</font>

[Cheech]

Whoa whoa... everyone needs to calm down about the over 60% on weapons. It's ONLY for the trial.

Ah King said on his message board that it's only for trial. I hope he's right too.

[HC82]

On 2002-06-20 20:52, Cloak wrote:
And to the person who posted above Zaran, yes your post had a point. A VERY good one, at that. People forget that forces are mainly for support, not to be some all-powerful technical PSO character of destruction. Most people don't even UNDERSTAND how freakin' powerful a force would be if ST listened to the ignorant ones requesting forces MST to be increased. While it's true it's unfair forces do 90ish damage in ult. ruins, this doesn't mean they should get a HUGE increase. If they did, it'd be just like a max MST force w/LV30 techs in vhard, a HUMAN NEEDLE.

I personally think force general MST damage should be raised, slightly. And single hit techs should be raised significantly. So a foie should be able to do 200-300 damage in ruins. Having single hit techniques be more powerful would even it out sorta, since they won't be destroying EVERYTHING in sight with RA techs. And as far as support techs go, they should be based on MST. S/D/J/Z should be weaker or stronger depending on MST. It makes no sense a FOnewearl's shifta is just as effective as a FOmarl's. Maybe making MST act like this would finally allow FOnewearl to be the ultimate support character she was intended to be. But at this point I really don't care or need to think about PSO. Just giving input..


I gotta agree. I also gotta agree with alot of the above posts as well.

First off alot of folk are totally correct on tech damage being a pile of garbage in the ruins(90 damage for 40tp...why?). Although alot of folk have a crack pipe in there mouth if they think FO tech should be dealing insane damage.

FO techs should deal around 300 to 350 damage with max FOnewearl mst and level 30 techs(even 200 damage would be exceptable). Compared to to the 1600 damage my HUmar does with a 60% pick and s/z, i think it's fair if I deal 1/5 the damage with my techs as apposed to 1/16th it does now.

I also think it's odd for mst to only effective shifta/debands casting distance. If not effect it's strength(which it should IMO do very slightly), it should effect it's duration. So higher MST equals a much longer lasting shifta and deband. Range isn't a big deal unless it's resta, or your fighting flaz last form.

FOs are all about support right?

Personally I think FO techs should focus more on support based effects then actual chunks of spread damage. A great example is Rabarta(hands down the most used FO damage tech in ulti)....although it's freeze effect isn't that high since a Bot can drop a trap.

Suppose Zonde would randomly effect the player with a "slow" status for a few seconds, or foie would lower the enemies evasion and accuracy for a short while. Grants would still be a big hitter but would confuse the enemy . Megid would be a sort of "demi" style spell which reduced the enemies hp by a certain percentage. The percentage would be sort of random...the higher the hp percentage decrease, the less chance it would occur if your mst and tech level is low(the percentage amount chouldn't exceed 35%). It also has a small chance to instant kill a enemy.

If that were the case then your damage wouldn't be such a big deal, because your spells have unique effects. MST would effect the damage minorly(like it does now) but it would also effect the chance of these special effect occuring.

From what I noticed MST doesn't effect Rabartas chance to freeze....which is lame.


...More incoming balance rants

Enemies don't need more evp and dfp then what they already have in ulti to make them tougher. With higher dfp and evp it means that low ata weapons would be worthless and that hunter classes with lower atp(ie hunewearl) would really be hurting from increase dfp. Since when you miss your whole attack just whiffs, so a sword based weapon would simply be too risky to use(which is why a red sword was almost worthless to use past the caves).

I think ata should work differently. If your ata was too low and you "miss" it should then calculate if you really do "miss" and deal no damage or your attacks damage amount is just halved. So you'll still hit but the damage will be halved...or it will just outright miss. The chances of it missing outright or the damage being halved would be futher dependent on the attackers ata and person taking the hits evp.

The whole ata isnt a big deal for me, but imo some weapons just need some ata retuning.

If you want enemies to be tougher then they already are in ulti just give them more HP. Give them more dfp and evp and you'll be missing too much, and lower atp classes will deal peanuts. Enemies take longer to kill with more hp, making ranger sniping more valuable, and makes spread damage from techs more valuable. This way a hunter who is the main damage dealer can take out the enemiy in one combo because of the total aid of there teammates...not because there suped up with support spells.

Weapon percents IMO really don't need to exceed 60% except for a few types. I think only certain weapons should be able to reach 60%. Like a claw type weapon should be able to reach 60% while a partisan/sword type weapon should only reach a max of 40%. Why? Well partisan and sword type weapons are always overkill with a FOs support spells. I kill things with 45% pick in one combo...another 15% is just overkill. Besides WHO WOULD actually USE a CLAW over a sword or pick aside for RPing purposes or just to mess around.

Single hit weapons should be able to have a higher maximum percent, while multi hit weapons should naturally have a lower set attainable max percents. A claw would be 65% a dagger would be 55%, handguns 50%, rifles 55%...etc.

[VariantXL]

100% DB Saber..pfft....... so what. Theres a bunch of better weapons on top of it that could have 100% and be better.. if 100% is possible i doubt that it would be 100% in EVERY area against EVERY type of beast u came across. And arent S-Rank weapons plain more powerful than almost any thing you could find in any box or dropped from a monster. S-rank weaps were intended to be the absolute best u can get your hands on and no percentage on most weapons will ever change that. What if you get an 100% S-Rank?? is someone going to find a way to complain about that too? Its just something that we arent sure about yet? And this really applies more so to the way ep 1 was set up. But not E2 the areas have different classifications t of monsters in them so u could hit one with a 100% weap and do like 750 and the next one u could hit it and do 0 and it turn around and smack you flat on the ground. So its a matter of luck in the end or paying the tekker excruciating amounts of money until he gives you the percent you want.

[nosaJ]

On 2002-06-20 18:25, Cloak wrote:
You people are looking way too far into the future. Why? S RANKS? Obsolete? How do you know? There is currently no information on S RANK weapons. Ultimate mode EPII last stage being 4 times as hard as ult ruins, and rangers being the only one to damage? How do you know? There was NO mention of a special last EPII stage at all, let alone information of it being incredibly hard. Stop trying to predict things, sure ST isn't the smartest, but c'mon, would they REALLY make it so only rangers can hit stuff in ult EPII? Or forces doing 15 damage? Why not wait and see how things are going to be? For all anyone knows, they could've revamped EVERYTHING, enemy resistances, DFP, EVP, spell damage, MST, ATA, ATP, ETC., ETC., ETC!Assumptions/opinions don't really aid to true information. So don't jump the gun. o_O;



What's wrong with guessing? It's not just a guess, it's about opinions too.

[Defend]

Hehe my 50% nat Chain Sawd farted on the S Rank Saber. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[VulpesMundi]

Let's put this into perspective using current stats...

HUnewearl
ATP 1150
ATA 164
Shifta 15 (+25% total ATP)

DB's Saber
ATP 250 + 18 (9 grind) = 268
ATA 40
Special: Spirit (roughly 25% ATP bonus)
Area type: 100%
Hit bonus: 100

S-Rank Saber
ATP 804 + 198 (99 grind) = 1002
ATA 200

---

HUnewearl + DB's Saber + Shifta 15
ATP 1150 + 268 = 1418 + 25% = 1773 + 100% = 3546
ATA 164 + 40 + 100 = 304
Special: 3546 + 25% = 4433

HUnewear + S-Rank Saber + Shifta 15
ATP 1150 + 1002 = 2152 + 25% = 2690
ATA 164 + 200 = 364

As you can see the DB's Saber won't have as much ATA, but its ATP total (especially with the special attack) is insane. And currently the ATA standings in ultimate mode are more or less rated as such...

less than 200 = very bad (hella missing)
200 - 250 = bad (missing alot)
250 - 300 = ok (some misses)
300 - 350 = good (few misses)
350 - 400 = great (rarely miss)
400 or greater = excellent (godly hit rate)

The DB's Saber with a 100 hit bonus would be in the good category, whereas the S-Rank Saber is in great. But with such an extreme total calculated attack power the DB's Saber would certainly become a weapon of choice for people looking for something easy to find and effective to use. Charge weapons, Spirit weapons, and Berzerk weapons would become extremely popular and just as effective (if not more effective) than the majority of the available weaponry. As I see it, the Vjaya (partisan type, special: charge) will become one of the most popular HUnter weapons if the system isn't given more balance before the final release.

It's easy to see that weapon modders are going to have a field day when codes start flying. If E1&2 stats stay at a max of 100% and weapons can still have three stat types at a time, that means the modders could layer 300% on a single stat. And we thought 180% was ludicrous. lol

But back to the old argument. IF Sega/ST decide to keep the 100% stat maximum, I think it would be wise of them to make an item that can actually boost a weapon's stats. Kinda in the same vein as grinders and the item that adds slots to armor. This way any weapon, including S-Ranks, could be given legit stats (up to 100% and only three stat types per weapon). I could see them used kind of like grinders...

Monophoton(type) + 5% to a stat type
Diphoton(type) + 10% to a stat type
Triphoton(type) + 15% to a stat type

This of course is just a thought. I have no idea if they'll actually do anything like this. Wishful thinking, I suppose.

[Dain_Bramaged]

I recall hearing something about a way to add percentages to a weapon in an earlier post, you may very well be able to in E1&2.

As for the 100% crap items > S Ranks, my opinion is as follows: They've upped percentages, and rebalanced stats.. what makes you think that weapons in general, *including* S-ranks, won't be modified as well? They may have percentages on them, or they could even just be plain upgraded.

Another point I'd like to bring up is rarity. The trial version has greatly increased odds of finding rare items (from what I've heard on these boards...) For all we know, finding a +100% weapon could be rarer than anything you've ever seen in V2 when the full games are released. Maybe *so* rare that completing challenge mode to get an S-rank is *easier* than finding *anything* with 100% attributes, let alone something worthwhile, that your class can equip.

I can't, however, see ST changing the way the percentages affect the weapons, just doesn't seem very likely, they'll probably just balance character/NPC stats to deal with the higher percentage weapons.

Just my two cents worth, keep the change.

[Cloak]

Good point Vulp. Wait, no, not good point. Your calculations for shifta/weapon percentages is wrong because 25%/100% are not how they affect your overall damage. In fact I think no one has even been able to accurately figure out how shifta/deband work. Nor weapon %'s. Probably some JP PSO in-depth gamer, but no one has mass released the info. Either way ATA still wouldn't be good enough. ESPECIALLY for the special attack, since V2 special attacks are innacurate on ult. monsters, let alone V1 wep specials.

[WeaponX3523]

Have any of you used version one weapons in ult extensively? If you did you wouldn't be claiming the srank saber would be better. My humar used a 0/0/0/40/30 kaladbolg bought from the store. With a soft soft hard combo I would almost never miss. I would do 200-250 on a soft and 500 on a hard. This is all with force shifta. An srank saber little to no more dmg. It does the same damage as an srank needle. So the only advantage over the kaladbolg was 250 extra damage from an extra hard hit. Now if one thinks about it logically, that would mean that a 0/0/0/90/70 db saber would be superior. Sure you wouldn't be firing off the special but you wouldn't need too. With a droid and that saber, you would be pretty damn set. Which is a little bit bizarre if you ask me.

[Zio]

as said it an earlier reply, ah king said the above 60% weapon percentages is only for the trial version. so stop jumping the gun. I doubt it will be in the final.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zio on 2002-06-21 16:47 ]</font>

[VulpesMundi]

On 2002-06-21 15:36, Cloak wrote:
Good point Vulp. Wait, no, not good point. Your calculations for shifta/weapon percentages is wrong because 25%/100% are not how they affect your overall damage. In fact I think no one has even been able to accurately figure out how shifta/deband work. Nor weapon %'s. Probably some JP PSO in-depth gamer, but no one has mass released the info.


You're right, that's not how they effect overall damage. It's how they effect overall ATP. ATP does not equal damage, it's just a power rating. My calculations are close, but definately not spot on. Shifta 15 actually gives a little more than a 25% ATP bonus, it's closer to 28%. I just used 25% because it's an easy, round number. Here's a true example of how to calculate a Shifta 15 bonus from ver.2...

HUnewearl max ATP 1150
S-Rank Needle ATP 798 + 198 (99 grind) = 996
Total 1150 + 996 = 2146
Shifta 15 brings that 2146 to exactly 2750
Difference 2750 - 2146 = 604
Total calculation 2146 / 604 = ~3.55, 100 / 3.55 = ~28.17

The total addage of ATP from Shifta 15 is roughly 28% of the original ATP. (Yes, I have way too much free time on my hands http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

As for the stats on a weapon, there's a clear way to calculate the total ATP (again, not necessarily damage). Just take the total ATP (including shifta) and add the % in question. The game itself does this discreetly before you even attack. Give it a shot. Find two of the same weapon (say a Red Handgun) and make sure one has 0% A.Beast and the other has a decent boost (around 45% or so). Go into the cave and find your way to a joined Pan-Arms. Don't cast Zalure on it, but you might need Shifta. Attack with the 0% and you're likely to do 0 damage, but attack with the one with 45% and you'll do some damage. This means the ATP is what gets the bonus, not the damage, because 45% added to 0 is still 0.


On 2002-06-21 15:36, Cloak wrote:
Either way ATA still wouldn't be good enough. ESPECIALLY for the special attack, since V2 special attacks are innacurate on ult. monsters, let alone V1 wep specials.


I beg to differ. Have you ever used a Flight Fan? It's ATA (349 on a HUnewearl) is in the good range according to my scale, and its special attack hits fairly accurately even in the Ultimate Ruins. The scale I put together is based more on heavy and special attacks. Normal attacks would actually be about a 25 point variance on the scale, though generally anything under 200 ATA in Ultimate is gonna miss a helluva lot.

Normal attack scale in Ultimate...
less than 175 = very bad (hella miss)
175 - 225 = bad (missing alot)
225 - 275 = ok (some misses)
275 - 325 = good (few misses)
325 - 375 = great (rarely miss)
375 or higher = excellent (godly hit rate)

Here's another example with my Ruins-Killer 0/0/0/45/0 Red Dagger (326 ATA on a HUnewearl). I can use the heavy attack almost exclusively and it doesn't miss very often. And its TP steal special comes in handy for saving me the trouble of using fluids. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

ATA is one factor, but timing is another. If you know a critter's attack patterns you can fake them out and set yourself up for a free attack. Most people will just go for the head-on approach. As for myself, I've played too much Challenge Mode. I play a lot more strategically, even in the standard game. It's just a playing style, but I get hit a lot less because of the way I play. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

(This is a fun discussion lol)

[HC82]

Well the 3rd hit of a combo always gives a huge boost to your ata.

It's being able to have ata high enough to get the 1st and 2nd hit of a combo out using a hard or special.

Ver1 weapons are complete garbage past the caves in terms of ata. Only class actually able to use them are rangers. Of course that certainly doesn't threaten the place of ver2 weapons since the best you would be able to do is a normal, normal, hard attack. A hard hard hard attack will out class n,n,h in damage.

These are my ATA values for being able to succesfully do a Hard, Hard, Hard attack per stage 95% of the time.

This for melee range so that the first hard hit is going to connect.

The difference in values are for enemies which have high evp. Usually the more tougher versions of the fodder enemies.

Forest: 320~325
Caves: 340~350
Mines:360~370
Ruins: 380~400 (400 for del de and c bringer)

When using your special as the last 3rd hit of your combo it's about the same accuracy as doing a hard hit as your second hit...well maybe a little less ata wise(not in your favor).

My whole point is that a 100% DB saber won't do to good in the ruins since you'll have to sick with alot of normal hits.

So assuming that the attack percentage values will work the same way as ver 2 does then ver2 weapons ata will still make them more dominant.

Then theres the assumtpion that enemies will be tougher in general...so the extra percents are needed.

[VulpesMundi]

I repeat, I can use a Red Dagger w/ no hit bonus almost exclusively with heavy attacks in the ultimate ruins and it usually won't miss. A 100 hit bonus DB is going to be over 300 ATA (nearly the same as a Red Dagger), making a L H H or L S S combo quite effective even in the ruins. The L S S is going to do far more damage than any S-Rank weapon and any ver.2 weapon with low/no stats.

Of course, yeah if you can find ver.2 weapons with 100% stats they're more likely to be better than pretty much any ver.1 weapon. The catch is that the majority of ver.2 weapons are difficult to find, at best, so getting them with good stats is unlikely. The point I was getting at is that a ver.1 weapon with 100% stats is comparably better than any current S-Ranks without any stats. Not only that, the ver.1 weapons are generally easy to find. This will make playing repeatedly just to hunt ver.1 weapons with good stats a common event (which may be the reason why Sega/ST decided to redesign the majority of 9 star ver.1 weapons). This all of course does not take into account stat changes for E1&2. We'll have to see what happens with the final version.